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Vicoden Cravings
by Shea, Sep 17, 2001 12:00AM
Hi all,
I desperatly need some advise.I have been clean from the Vicodens for about 5 weeks. I don't seem though to be to the point some of you are, like WW where you are really feeling good. But then I never felt as though they were hindering me. I functioned GREAt on them. I was energetic and fun to be around. And I didn't feel numb, actually I felt more passionate about everything when using Vics. So I can't look back on anything negative about how it made me feel. But I can look back on how ashamed I felt by the lying to so may doctors to obtain them. Anyhow, I did start feeling better when I started using Thomas's Recipe although I still had the cravings. So..here is my question and please I GREATLY appreciate your replys. The last few days I have seemed to revert. I am constantly tired and fatigued. And the cravings are incredible. That is all I think about. I don't think I will relapse but it is hard to fight. I am just not sure why I feel like I have taken 10 steps backwards. Is this too post acute withdrawls? Thank you for all your help and support.
I hope and Pray you are all strong in this time of national turmoil.
Shea
I desperatly need some advise.I have been clean from the Vicodens for about 5 weeks. I don't seem though to be to the point some of you are, like WW where you are really feeling good. But then I never felt as though they were hindering me. I functioned GREAt on them. I was energetic and fun to be around. And I didn't feel numb, actually I felt more passionate about everything when using Vics. So I can't look back on anything negative about how it made me feel. But I can look back on how ashamed I felt by the lying to so may doctors to obtain them. Anyhow, I did start feeling better when I started using Thomas's Recipe although I still had the cravings. So..here is my question and please I GREATLY appreciate your replys. The last few days I have seemed to revert. I am constantly tired and fatigued. And the cravings are incredible. That is all I think about. I don't think I will relapse but it is hard to fight. I am just not sure why I feel like I have taken 10 steps backwards. Is this too post acute withdrawls? Thank you for all your help and support.
I hope and Pray you are all strong in this time of national turmoil.
Shea
You are clean longer than I am, so I don't know if I'll be hit with the same intensity of fatigue again down the line.
I know that the past three days I've been hit with intense cravings. It has been really hard to fight. I've dealt with it by again deciding to go on an hour by hour basis, as well as reminding myself how much better I feel now and what hell I was feeling before.
I remember when I was using, before my back surgery, that the meds would make me feel great for about an hour, then there was a slow decline, till I felt nauseaus and drained. I don't want to go back there.
Shea, I truly think the thing that has made me feel better has been the addition of the 5 HTP to my supplement regime. Until I added that, I was plagued by heavy duty depression. Have you tried taking that yet?
Maybe others here have more info to offer..
But hang in there..I have to work hard to keep the Dragon at bay these days...it keeps whispering that now that my tolerance is low, I could do it just once in a while to have a thrill and it would be fine...I am pretty sure that for me, it would not be fine, and in no time I'd be right back where I was, and I'm not going back there. Nuh uh. No way. Be damned Dragon Demon!
love,
WW
Francois
This is what I learned:
Any substances that increases seratonin can potentially cause "seratonin syndrome" that in very very rare cases can lead to seizures and possibly death.
The amount of 5 HTP that the studies show cause seratonin syndrome were doses of 6,000 to 9,000 mgs per day for one month. The doses that the research indicates help cure depression are only 300mgs per day. The ssri medications are far more likely to cause seratonin syndrome, and they rarely do. But, we need to be informed about all possibilites and it is always a good idea to be cautious.
Overall, 5 HTP appears much safer than the ssri meds.
Nevertheless, Dr. Sahelian recommends the following:
Keep doses of 5 HTP to the lowest dose possible that still gives an antidepressant effect. In most cases, this will be 100 mgs. per day, but some people need up to 300 mgs. per day.
Do not take 5 HTP daily longer than 3 months, in order to avoid developing a tolerance to it. He says after 3 months, take a two week to one month break from it. After this, it is safe to resume.
Do not take 5 HTP with any other seratonin increasing herb or medication, including St John's Wort, Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Wellbutrin, or any MAOI inhibitor, such as Nardil.
The book is an interesting read. Only six bucks through Amazon.com. The name of it is "5 HTP, Nature's Seratonin Solution" by Dr. Ray Sahelian. I recommend you read it if you are interested in taking 5 HTP for any length of time. He also gives excellent suggestions for other natural supplements, and how to take them safely.
He lives in Southern California, and has a medical practice in Santa Monica, so anyone lucky enough to live there could get a consultation with him. I'm actually thinking about flying down there to see him, since he reportedly treats chronic pain patients with a combination of medications and herbs and also has experience with helping addicts normalize brain chemistry.
Sounds like my kinda guy!
love,
WW
Yes, you'll continue to have moments or interludes of cravings for the vics. Don't forget, after using for a long time you build up a store of "cues," psychological imprints, memories, associated with the activity and feelings of using. If you had a certain routine during which you liked to be high, it might help to avoid those activities or locales, people, movies -- whatever you associate with being high on vics.
Even still, you'll go through cravings from time to time anyway.
5 HTP may very well help, and you've got WW to guide you as far as safe dosages are concerned.
I suggest you try (as an alternative to the 5 HTP -- I'm not sure about combining the two) about 1500 mgs of L-Tyrosine and 100 mg of B6 when you get the cravings. That might be all you need. But don't forget about the cues. They're pretty much universal with drug addicts and alcoholics and take years to fade. Hope this helps.
Thomas
Also.....I'm not sure if this is the correct spelling for Ginna...or Gianna.....she answered one of my posts....gave me her email address and I emailed her and the email game back as wrong address. SHe is the one whose addiction ended up costing around $4000.00 for legal help. I would like to hear more of her story.......if she reads this...maybe she'll repost her address.Well folks....."no back bone" here is going to bed. Only 9 hours left.....GOD. I'm weak.
WW and Thomas..Thank you for your reply. It sounds like you have done a lot of research on seratonin. I am taking 5htp for about a couple weeks now. i take the 50mg twice a day. Also I am using thomas's Recipe..1500mg L-Tyrosine 100 mg B-6 magnesium zinc copper phosphorus. Do you think the combo of the 5htp and L-tyrosine could be too much. I will tell you the first week I felt a GREAT improvement. Also Thomas..makes a lot of sense what you said about the "cues"! the problem is I did everything while on Vicoden. EVERYTHING! I have been taking pain pills for like 24 years. Started young as did the surgeries. When I woke up I rolled over and took my pills. I already had them out of the bottle and waiting for me on the night stand. Along with the ones i took mid way through the night. about 3:00 a.m. Never really went more than 4 hours without taking more. sometime after 2 hours i felt "enough time". Anyhow, would you suggest I cut back on either the 5htp or the L-tyrosine?
Joec and Francoise..Thank you for the info on the 5htp. all pro's and con's are appeciated.
Phillychad..I don't know much about methodone from personal experience. But I do know what it is like to be in turmoil with an addiction. And I will pray you find an answer as I pray we all do. good Luck to you.
Katie r.. I personally think you are too hard on yourself. I believe as long as we exsert tons of energy BEATING ourselves up that is less energy we have to BUILD ourselves up. The more you beat yourself up the worse you feel about yourself. Then the more you want to numb those self- loathing feelings. I KNOW! I HAVE DONE IT FOR YEARS! On top of it loving opiates. If I could have used the creativity and energy I used on thinking of ways to get pills towards something constructive, wow i would be so far ahead.(and I had so many ways to get these pills) Maybe as you use this script, of course you'll be chillin but maybe you can come up with a plan. Are you trying Thomas Recipe? Maybe if you start before it will help more getting it in your system for the next time you try to quit. IT IS NOT OUR FAILURE THAT COUNTS BUT OUR BRAVE ABILTY TO TRY.
Philly chad (again) No wonder you can't finish a post "I" probably use so much space writing so much then make you take pay the consenquences.
I will keep in shorter next time.
good Luck to you all....and thank you!
Shea
Dr. Sahelian's book said that taking 5 HTP and L-Tyrosine together is not only safe, but a very good combination. The HTP boosts seratonin, while the Tyrosine boosts dopamine, both of which are involved in elevating mood.
I've been taking 100mgs 5 HTP a day and between 1000 and 2000 mgs of L-Tyrosine, and feel this combination is working well.
As an anecdote, when I was still using the vics, when I took the L-Tyrosine, I felt horrible..wired, like I had drank way too much coffee. But now that I am clean, the L-Tyrosine just feels very calming, and gives me a relaxed alertness.
WW
I just wanted to say that I agree with Shea. Beating yourself up for your addiction is part of the way the disease insidiously worms its way in. If you constantly berate yourself, you feel worse and worse about yourself and are much more likely to continue to need something outside yourself to make you feel good.
Try to just accept that you are in the middle of a very difficult battle, and that even if you are still using, as long as you are increasing awareness of how your addiction works, and how it affects you, you are still inching your way forward to claiming back as much of your light as you can.
I'm not an expert on addiction...but I am a fellow addict..and I know that what moved me from the "I'll never be able to stop using this stuff, and I'm not sure I want to" to being ready to be clean was the slow process of unconditional self love and acceptance.
Never give up hope.
The San Francisco memorial service was yesterday, and they had many different religious leaders speaking. When it was time for the Tibetan Budhist monk to speak, he said something very interesting. First, he started by saying "I bow to the potentially enlightened being in all of you". Later he said that if we are to stop senseless world violence, we have to first stop by ending violence toward ourselves, which means treating ourselves with compassion. My take on that is..no self beration. That is different from a good hard look at how our own behaviors hurt ourselves. But rather than say "weak, weak, weak" ..maybe say "addicted, addicted, addicted". As far as I know, addiction is not about weakness, it is about addiction. Very different thing.
my two cents..good luck Katie, you are not alone.
WW
I don't know the answer to your question. It depends on how long oxy stays in your system. I will venture a guess that you may be in for withdrawals again, but I really don't know if once a day dosing of oxycontin causes physical dependance.
I know that once a day dosing of vicodin does not cause physical dependance. I know this because for about two years, I took vicodin only at night, never during the day, and just one dose. I would at times skip several days, and sometimes up to a week, and never went through withdrawals (till I started to take it three to four times a day). A Doctor later told me that once a day dosing of vicodin won't cause dependance, because it leaves your system fast.
But oxy last longer in your system...it is time released, so I think it hits the receptors frequently.
Even if you do go through withdrawals, I'm guessing that it won't be as intense as when you taking the 15 to 20 pills a day for a few months. I hope I'm right about that.
Please, let us know how you are doing, and lean on us for support. We all need each other.
love,
WW
I spoke to a Doctor friend of mine, he is a Psychiatrist, not a pain Doc, but..for what its worth, he said that you probably will not go through withdrawals, because you were taking it once a day, not twice, so your brain