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Permanently altered brain chemistry???
by RobynBanks, May 09, 2003 12:00AM
Doc/Everyone
Do you think by taking narcotics for a prolonged period of time, the brain's chemistry (endorphins..seretonin uptake... all that lingo) is altered permanently or is it reversable?
I have been on and off narcotics for 12 years. I know withdrawl gets tougher phsycholgically but what about physically? Can I ever hope for normal pain/pleasure receptors...etc.. ?
Is that what also makes withdrawls so much harder (the brains inability to respond to pain normally)?
I hope you can make sense of this.
Thanks
Do you think by taking narcotics for a prolonged period of time, the brain's chemistry (endorphins..seretonin uptake... all that lingo) is altered permanently or is it reversable?
I have been on and off narcotics for 12 years. I know withdrawl gets tougher phsycholgically but what about physically? Can I ever hope for normal pain/pleasure receptors...etc.. ?
Is that what also makes withdrawls so much harder (the brains inability to respond to pain normally)?
I hope you can make sense of this.
Thanks
Interesting question and response. I agree that we are something less than human when we abandon reason as a governing force in our lives. In my own case, however, the use of reason leads me to question just how much of a recovery I can achieve by reasoning alone.
I'm trying to recover from 30 years of almost constant opiate abuse, punctuated by two horrific years of benzo addiction. With the exception of a one-day slip, I have been off of all drugs for 4 months. While I am beginning to feel like what I dimly remember as my old self, there continues to be a sort of "background hiss" of dysphoria in my waking life.
My reasoning mind is familiar with some of the brain studies indicating persistent, possibly irreversible adaptation to opiate abuse. Consequently, my reasoning mind wants to know what you think of opiate agonist therapy as an adjunct to rational recovery techniques for junkies with habits as long as mine.
P.S. I have investigated and rejected methadone maintenance as even a partial solution. I did so, not because I consider methadone itself to be a bad approach, but rather because I believe that today's methadone clinic system is a punitive, stigmatizing, dehumanizing, unethical and utterly mercenary application of what could be a life saving medicine. I’ve never used methadone, so I’m basing my opinion on what information I can find.
Thomas
Just wondering how you are doing, and how the detox process is going for you. Earlier in the week, you were going on day 15, I think?
I hope all is well.
Burn
Just wondering if you had an email that you could be reached at?? Or would you rather not post it?
Thanks.
Burn
Damn Microsoft
I try not to use the Comment section because it would be overwhelming and it would deprive many of an opportunity to particiate and contribute and they contribute measurably.uable.
I have to agree with you about the Methadone industry; it's analagous to the situation respecting Religion. Every Religion was founded by an individual with vision and love for his fellow man but what happened with time is the hierarchy or bureaucracy that developed prostituted it. We can see that every day as we survey the scene. Likewise with methadone, Vincent Dole was an outstanding scientist when he and his coworkers developed the application of Methadone, but once the tunnel-visioned entrepeneurs got hold of it it developed into the kind of entity you describe. it is sad.
Respecting your question about combining an opiate agonist and a cognitive-behavioral approach, we in Smart Recovery aver that ours is an abstinence program and our goal is to provide the information and support for the individual to develop a program that is suitable to him/her. Hopefully that is abstinence but if the individual concludes after reality check and soul searching, and exhausts all measures and repeatedl conducts cost-benefit analysis , then a harm reduction approach is indicated and that's what you're asking. That cost/benefit analysis includes your asking the five questions that Maxie Maultsby always poses: 1. What are the facts, i.e. as close to a camera view of situations as is humanly possible? As an example of that-I can't stand this craving, when this is not true because it has been stood many times before. 2. How does the usage affect short term and long term goals-job wise,economics, retirement, profession? Am I getting a quick fix and losing out on greater gains in the future? 3. How does usage affect my health now and in the future-nutritional, neurologically,liver etc.? 4. How does my usage affect my interrelationships with those important to me and not to be ignored the law? 5. How does usage affect how I feel daily?
A rational choice would be that at least three of the five parameters are not adversely affected. A review process somewhat similar would be to weigh the negatives of quitting and the positives. We have found that you must repeat these cost/benefit analyses over time because perspectives change with time and circumstances.If you do these kinds of analyses repeatedly , you can then arrive at a course of behavior that is customized to you as a unique individual. I hope that this helps some.
i have been in treatment 14 times, that is in-patient treatment. the detox in 1999 was the worst experience ever.
but even after as sick as i was i did get back to feeling quite normal. physically, emotionally and mentally.
at 4.5 months off of opiates i again feel physically, emotionally and mentally "normal" (normal is relative isn't it! lol)
if it were true that my brain chemistry were permanently altered and that i would suffer for the rest of my life from irreversible damage i sincerely doubt that i would time after time bounce back to feeling as good as i ever did, sometimes even better!
perhaps my body/mind is just so grateful to me for giving in a respite from narcotics and alcohol that i am pink-clouding but i don't think that is it. i have worked at feeling well again and it starts with waking up in the morning NOT DOPE SICK! and as you all can testify to that is the greatest feeling in the world, next to sex which you even begin to have an interest in again! ;-)
as far as methadone goes, what is important to me is quality of life! and for those who find that methadone is the answer i support them in that! not for me to judge. better methadone than the continued use of street or prescription narcotics... now, using methadone and using other narcotics while on methadone is not kosher in my book, but it does happen and it doesn't mean that the person doing that will always do that!
i don't think anyone that has never been on methadone can judge anyone else deciding to do the clinic. for me, NO, no methadone today, thank you very much, lol! hate methadone W/D worse than anything!!!!!!
amber
It's been a while. Very nice to see a medical source who has more than cracked eggs in his carton. So thanks RB Banks - very interesting discussion. No the question is, how long will you last?
Second. Thomas, I too am clean, brutally so, after a barbic rehab which I may post about one day. But the 15-20 vic a day habit it gone as are the zanax, soma and booze. I have detested AA all my life and now I find I can barely go a day without a meeting. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I am reading the book, hell I read it twice. Of course, some general tenets apply, not unlike Smart Recovery. Take a moral inventory; get back in touch with your spirituality, one day at a time. Very simple, very effective.
Thomas I have followed you from site to site, or let's just say our paths have crossed, (I am Lysanders in another virtual incarnation). I watched closely as you approached your decision to get on methadone. If anyone had hit a brick wall and examined it, you did. I have studied the program, seeing probably over 500 cases (medical insurance files, and consulting with MDs on the abusers) of individuals on methadone. I have limited personal experience, except to work with folks detoxing from it on a voulnteer basis at our county hosp. Yes, it is a godsend for _some end stage users like you and I_. No, it really doesn't solve the problem for many. If it prevents us from stealing or pissing away our savings on netdrugs and street drugs, and we can function at work, than hallelujah, pass it out. There is just one nasty little caveat, one I suspected you discovered. Of the 500+ cases I have seen (I have reviewed the medical files, not seen the patients other than as noted above and I have been researching and chatting about this on the net for > 2 years) I would say most never get off. The Problem? If our Banks is an MD he should know this, once you taper down to 40 mgs you can't go any lower - the psyche and the psychological mechanism simply won't allow it. I have seen personally many detoxes, and a methadone detox is a nasty affair, very nasty. I can only compare it to junk or the ethanol abuser who is on massive amounts of benzos - that is a long drawn out hellish event. I only know of one individual who stopped methadone did it on her own and she crossed into psychosis, was treated with resperdil (sp)and required two weeks of in pt psy. therapy.
So Michael, while I too do not like blanket statements (is not that not one?), the stuff is bad ju ju except for the sickest amongst us who can show up 360 for the rest of their lives with their hands out. If one can avoid it I seriously suggest alternatives.
Thomas, I have two months. My bride valium is gone and now my every four-hour angel of vicodin 50 mg no longer pulls my strings. The crazy thing is that I feel better than I have in 15 years. Lots of work ahead, but today is another one wherein I will go to bed reading my New Yorker, not passed on soma, vic, zanax and whatever little nite nite cocktail. Life is just too damn short.
My apologies for the ramble. Like I said, it's been a while,
jf
Thank you, thank you...
Suzie
I am really strugglin now with my recovery. day 70 clean but i still would use my d o c if i had access. But at least i am not seeking access! I think i am teatering on the edge of relapse hell. Evidentally have not surrendered to the God of my understanding. Do u have any ideas for this baby in recovery for first time after 10 years straight of addiction to stadol. Used one bottle every 1 to 4 days for ten years. Had headaches daily. and was put on stadol of course way before they knew it was addictive.
Peace...
Suzie
amber
Anne
Congratulations on day 20! That's great. How was the fishing expedition? Sounds like fun. I was born in New Orleans, and would love to be back there right now. I need to get away. I'm doing well with staying off the opiates, but still have this really weird, disconnected feeling, and not much get up and go. Time, time, time. It all takes time, I know. And, I have no business feeling sorry for myself because I'm off the damn things!
Hope your weekend is going well.
Burn
My friend and co-worker was sadly using the UK OTC codeine recreationally. That answers your pain management question.
Recently, I have noted improvement and hope that France will not be a problem for us or him.
Otz