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Similarity of fentanyl (Duragesic) to heroin. . .

by Kurt Cobain, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
Hey everyone. . .just a discussion-opener and thread-starter for the day.  I've read several posts from folks here who have used/are coming off of Duragesic (fentanyl) patches of varying strengths.  Seems like most of these folks, however, have had them prescribed for legit reasons and have used them as directed.  My question is, is anyone else familiar with the NON-approved methods of using these patches (that would include mainly ingeston)?  Back in "the day", I would either cut them up or place them intact inside my mouth, and then. . .over and out (to the point of underestimating strength once and almost getting killed several times while driving home).  As I understand, medical fentanyl can actually be stronger and more "pure" than garden-variety smack, especially the way I took it.  Any other opinions/experiences would be interesting to hear. . .some of the things I did to get my hands on this drug are extreme, and I am most certainly NOT proud of any of them. . .seems very similar to heroin as far as the "drawing power" it had to get me to do things I would have otherwise (and now) find reprehensible.  Also, I've had bad dreams the last several nights about using everything under the sun, and so am a little shaken up these days -- especially since I've had no CONSCIOUS cravings for the **** in what seems like forever.  Can anyone else relate?  



Lastly (I promise). . .what is the "DA" BBoard I've heard several here refer to (and where?)  Judes, good to hear from you, maybe you can help with this. . .more later.  Thanks to everyone in advance. . .



Peace,



Kurt
Member Comments (46)

by Kurt Cobain, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
To: doc
"I cannot comment on non-medical usage of an opiate agonist in any constructive fashion. Sorry."



-- and you should be quite thankful you cannot.  Nothing to be sorry about there.  Even more blessed are you that you cannot get "what I was driving at" in my post, since it is, in essence, the edge of a big-assed precipice which most sane people NEVER drive at.



Never mind.  No offense, but what I'm actually after are comments from those who DO know what I'm talking about.  Specifically, my only curiosity was over the chemical similarity between the compounds fentanyl and heroin, since the addicitve power and effects seem remarkably similar.  Actually, as I understand it, they are both metabolized internally to what is essentially morphine (fentanyl being a very close "synthetic" match, chemically speaking, to heroin) -- so I guess in this aspect I have answered my own question.  



I was essentially wondering if my information was correct, or could be verified, by someone in the medical community, as I think that this insight -- if accurate -- may help explain why it is so difficult for "legitimate" users of the Duragesic (fentanyl) patches for pain  management issues to taper off of them, and why their withdrawal syndromes are so remarkably uncomfortable.  Several people have commented on this issue here in this forum lately, and I suppose it was their suffering and frustration that prompted my inquiry.



So I hope that the above has "let me make this perfectly clear" (as my dear departed buddy "Tricky ****" Nixon once said).



Any other opinions of value and experience are greatly appreciated.



Peace,



Kurt

by Linco, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
To: forum doc
Thanks for answering my question.  The puzzling thing is that prior to my use of the patches I was taking about 5 vicodin 7.5 per day.  I asked my MD to help me with the break through withdrawals and wean me off narcotics. He put me on the duragesic with a drastically reduced vicodin intake.  It's working of course but I fear an even greater "monkey" than before.  Anyway, thank you again.

by Jerri2, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
To: Kurt
Go to www.drugabuse.com  Thats where Judes is talking about!They have a general board and a support board!Hope this helps!Jerri

by Kurt Cobain, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
To: Jerri2
Thanks. . .I'm on the way!



Peace,



Kurt

by mrmichael67, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
Generally, people find it difficult to taper off of the patch because they think when they are at the 25ug/hr patch, they are at the end of their taper.  And, that is wrong.  Actually, tapering off of Duragesic isn't harder than tapering off of other opioids.  People just need to realize that being on a 25ug/hr patch is still being on a pretty decent dose of fentanyl.....or opioid, for that matter.  As far as fentanyl being like morphine, they are alike in their affinities to the mu opioid receptor and that is basically it.  Fentanyl is metabolized into an inactive metabolite (norfentanyl) where as morphine is metabolized into one active (m6g) and one inactive (m3g) metabolite.  And, heroin is metabolized into morphine.  There are other things such as clearance and whatnot that aren't alike as well.  I felt like withdrawal was a bit more nasty from the fentanyl.  But, that could also have been my elevated tolerance causing it.  I am not really sure on that one.  I do know many doctors drop their patients off after the 25ug/hr patch and their patients get sick as hell.  A 25ug/hr patch is equal to between 7-8 10mg Norco a day.  There are people that are taking that much Norco a day and want to start tapering.  The 25ug/hr patch may be the lowest strength made, but it sure as hell isn't the end of the road as far as tapering goes.  I think that is where people get into trouble with it.  "It's the lowest strength, so where else is there to go?"  Well, many doctors try to get by with that thinking.  And, many people suffer because of that.

by mrmichael67, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
One more thing:  Once it is metabolized, heroin is, for all purposes, morphine.  That is why I used morphine in my last post.  If one were to do a urinalysis, heroin is only detectable as heroin for six hours after ingestion.  There is one short living metabolite from heroin that is detectable for up to six hours.  After that, the person will test positive for morphine.  In the first six hours, the person will test positive for morphine as well, but further investigation will reveal the heroin.  After six hours, it will only show morphine.

by Kurt Cobain, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
To: mrmichael67
Thanks. . .I had heard fentanyl referred to as "synthetic heroin" in the past and wondered just how accurate or inaccurate that may have been.  Your post couldn't have been more helpful as far as the chemical composition was involved (which is basically what I was most interested in).  The bottom line is, I suppose, it all takes a fierce hold of you, no matter how you take it or for what reason. . .and is no easier to come off of whether you're a legit pain patient or a garden-variety junkie such as myself.  After my many near-death experiences with it, I regard it with the utmost respect as far as being a "heavy hitter".  Thanks also for your comparison to the 25 patch as equivalent to 8-10 Norco. . .it's amazing that physicians would not grasp something seemingly this pharmacologically basic -- but I guess until it hits you at the gut level (pun sadly intended) it just doesn't resonate as much. . .if at all.



Peace,



Kurt

by skipper, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
hey people:

i've used the duragesic patches briefly. my neuro surgeon's partner

was on duty one weekend before my last surgery. i was in the middle

of a pain episode and went to the ER. well the good doc didn't fool

around....put me on the 100 microgram patch and 4 hours later i felt

as if i could have run a marathon.(my heart was racing like i was!) i didn't give a ****, i felt great. when i went in to seem my doctor

the following monday he ripped the patch off...told me my blood pressure was sky high...the real strange part of it was, i never felt real euphoric like i have with other opiates...just no pain.



last week i had to take a urine test for a new job. i take 140 mg of

oxycontin and 45 of roxycodone a day. i thought they would bring up a positive for opiates as i had a half days worth in me to begin with. but no my test came up clean. the only thing i can figure is i'm on

a diuretics for high blood pressure. i knew it really kept me flushed out, but i didn't know it worked that well!!



keep an angel on your shoulder

kip

by TA328, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
I was on 80-mg patches wich are supposed to last three days. Whenever I put a new patch on, I was hardly conscious the first day.When I bummped or smoked Herion the few times I did it didnt seem as sedating but more pleasurable than fentanyl.Fentynal is deffinetly close but has a unuiqe feeling and anelgesic effect when compared with heroin.I know one thing for sure,fentanyl withdrawls come and go pretty quick after your last use(3-4)days and feel very misrable when you stop without tapering or dont have other drugs to replace it.I was on it for a while and sometimes would run out a few days early.

by mrmichael67, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
I am sure you may have heard of "tango and cash".  That was actually fentanyl made in a clandestine lab, not heroin.  People thought it was, thouh.  They were fixing it up like they normally would and were dropping like flies.  Heroin is about six times as potent as morphine.  Fentanyl is about 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine.  If they only knew what they REALLY had.

by mrmichael67, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
I am sure if you were to inject a couple of hundred mics of Sublimaze, you would feel euphoric.  I had it the last time I had an epidural lyses of adhesions with a Racz catheter on my back.  I was also on methadone and the anesthesiologist had to give me 400mics of Sublimaze (fentanyl) in my IV to override the methadone blockade.  I was feeling absolutely wonderful for about an hour or so after the procedure.  It did wear off quick.  That is the exact reason why they use fentanyl in same day procedures....because of the rapid clearance.

by mrmichael67, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
In order for a test to come up positive for oxycodone, they have to test for it exclusively.  It won't come up in a regular opiate screen.   http://www.iatdmct.org/oxycodone.html

by skipper, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
To: mr.michael
mrichael:

so most company don't test for oxy??!!! with all the media hysteria, one would think it would be real high up on the list..go figure. thanks for the info

keep an angel on your shoulder

kip

by mrmichael67, Jun 11, 2003 12:00AM
I didn't say that.  I would imagine the one you applied to didn't, though.

by Resoguy, Jun 12, 2003 12:00AM
To: mrmichael67
I saw your reference to the RACZ catheter procedure recently, and I'm a chronic back pain patient who is considering it. If you're willing to correspond about it, please contact me at ***@****. To the rest of those who post here, please know that I admire every one of you for your willingness to share your pain and wisdom on this forum. You don't know me, but you've all helped me.

by Jerri2, Jun 12, 2003 12:00AM
To: resoguy
Welcome!Keep on posting so we can get to know you.Jerri

by Huiler