Aa
HBO addiction video series that you can click on and watch.
You can scroll down to about 20 different videos clips on addiction and watch immediately.
http://www.hbo.com/addiction/thefilm/index.html?current=5
http://www.hbo.com/addiction/thefilm/index.html?current=5
Yesterday, I posted a site that had all this information on it... about naloxone and subutex... I had the link right to it..Then it was deleted by med-help.... I don't knwow why just was, this is just something that I copied and brought back to here. It was informative for me... I don't know if there is a conspiracy either because I use suboxone and totally got helped from it...
I hink that some people are hypersensitive to the naloxone and have issuese with that..
I hink that some people are hypersensitive to the naloxone and have issuese with that..
Good good! I've been reading a bunch about suboxone and the additive they put in the suboxone, the inhibitor, is so that it wont be abuse by shooting the drug... Subutex is the same thing without the additive and I am going to try to get that next.... I'll go and get the post about it that I read on another site... I posted the link but it got removed by medhelp maybe i posted too many questions or maybe they didn't like me posting a link to another forum but I'll go get the good info and be right back...
fish
fish
Thank you fishmeal! That was very informative. It helps a lot. I just emailed part of it to my husband. Maybe it will help him understand me a little better. You are always so helpful! Ggin35
I was out of town this weekend with my in-laws. It got my mind of a lot of the stuff I've been dealing with. Now I'm back home and I've been on the phone all day trying to get this addiction specialist thing going. I don't want to bore you with those details! I am running out of vicodin and really would like to get started on the suboxone. Other than that I guess I'm ok. For now anyway. How are you?
on the opiate video above, make sure you click on chapter 2 also becaues that's where the most pertinent information is.
FACTS REGARDING SUBUTEX, SUBOXONE, & NALOXONE
The following information was partially in response to a question Brett asked regarding endorphins but since I think that much of the info is pertinent to this topic, I'll repost some of the information here because the initial post of this thread seems to quote some FDA info yet ignore other FDA info and downgrades the effect of Naloxone on our bodies, and ultimately, our progress to be free of these meds.
As I quote below, I use the FDA info along with multiple conversations with the manufacturer and other sources to make the important point that some members here, along with even doctors in States where Sub. is available, are not following FDA instructions with both Subutex and Suboxone. And some members are discounting the effect of Naloxone and its' power to block endorphin absorption by the body. This is all in contrast to the instructions of both the manufacturer and the FDA.
Now, as we all know, Suboxone has two components: Bup. and Naloxone. As a partial opiate, yes, the Bup. will block some of your endorphins because it occupies a portion of the very receptor in which your endorphins are seeking to place themselves. That's the great thing about Bup. is that since it is only a partial opiate, it only partially blocks the endorphin absorption. That's why Bup. is such a great drug to help people taper off of as opposed to full opiates.
Next, you have Naloxone. Naloxone was placed together with Bup. as a method to discourage people from shooting up the Suboxone into your body. Good idea but there are drawbacks. First, anyone that is determined enough can figure out from sources on the internet how to get around the Naloxone "road block". Due to the rules of this forum (and common decency), I am prohibited from explaining how to do that.
Second, Naloxone is an endorphin blocker. For more info on Naloxone as an endorphin blocker, check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone
http://www.hallym.ac.kr/~neuro/kns/tutor/medical/endo.html. The info regarding Naloxone's blocking effects is near the bottom of the article.
http://www.ucihealth.com/News/UCI%20Health/bloodPressure.htm. This article talks a little about Naloxone's ability to disrupt the body's endorphin system when the patient is using acupuncture. By the way, regular acupuncture treatments are an excellent way to help your body's endorphin system. I have used it previously and I can personally attest to it.
Now, keep in mind that while it's true that Naloxone blocks endorphins, the question is, is there enough Naloxone in Suboxone to block your endorphins from reaching your receptors? The answer can be found in a 4 week study by Body System and Treatment Group where the Naloxone in Suboxone was found to have caused various side effects, and while endorphins were obviously not addressed, the fact that more people experienced more pain while taking Suboxone clearly indicates that the pain-blocking effects of endorphins were they themselves blocked. The study can be found at: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/suboxone_ad.htm. I know there are people that like to create their own world of what they think is the way things should be but I can only go with what medical science has proved. If someone has a problem with that info, please address it to the source and not me. So, clearly, contrary to the dismissing of Naloxone's bioavailability, it does have the ability, and there is enough of it in Suboxone, to block essential endorphins which could very possibly speed your recovery and end your need to remain in this program.
When the FDA approved Subutex/Suboxone, they issued instructions that patients should go into the Induction Phase using Subutex. The manufacturer has verbally stated the same to me personally (the name of the person I spoke to is available by email to me only). Now, the question is why would the FDA want the Induction Phase performed with Subutex? Simply because they are aware that Suboxone has more side effects and that they want to see how you do on the Bup. first before moving you to Suboxone. In this manner, if you start having some weird side effects, then the doctor could easily identify the problem and move you back to Subutex. The FDA info about this can be found at: http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/2002/20732pharmacist.pdf#search=%22subutex%20induction%22 . Additional info can be found at: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/suboxone_ids.htm.
The odd thing here is that, to my knowledge, the members "banging the drum" for Suboxone, have they themselves never been on Subutex and therefore do not know if Subutex could indeed make them feel better and help them progress off this medication even faster!! My doctor has stated that none of his other patients have progressed as rapidly as I have. While there could be any number of reasons why I have done better than his other patients, one thing is certain, of all his other patients, I'm the only one on Subutex!! All his other patients are taking Suboxone.
So, to summarize, yes, your endorphin level will rise as you decrease your dose level and you can do things like exercise and eat brain-repairing foods that will aid in that recovery. I recommend a book titled, "End Your Addiciton Now" by Dr. Charles Gant. It has great info regarding what things you should do to help your body, especially your brain, to recover. And, if you find that you are experiencing more pain and other side effects with Suboxone, then what I would do is simply ask my doctor to try putting me on Subutex or putting you back on Subutex, assuming your doctor followed FDA instruction and had you on Subutex during the Induction Phase.
As we've all discussed, everybody is different. Endorphin production will operate differently in everyone. Some of the factors involved in endorphin production is what was your DOC, how long were you on it, how healthy you are, what you eat, stress levels, nutrition, etc. Some people here use Suboxone and say they do wonderfully. I used Suboxone and it made me sick so my doctor put me on Subutex and I'm doing fine. The other advantage for me using Subutex is that I can purchase the 8mg. pills and cut them to the dose I need. The manufacturer recommends against doing that with Suboxone or Subutex but they don't mind patients doing that with Subutex because the only active ingredient in Subutex is Buprenorphrine. However, they don't recommend and they are firm on this, that you don't cut the Suboxone tablets because there is no guarantee that you will get the correct balanced amount of Bup. and Naloxone in your dose.
I take to heart everyone's concern about endorphins because they truly are the body's natural pain-killing and even "euphoric-casuing" drug. I used to go to the gym and do heavy weightlifting. After my workout, I always felt so good it felt better than anything else I could do for my body.
I'm hoping that within a few days I will have the opportunity to post a "Facts about Subutex" topic that will specifically address issues surrounding Subutex and why it is truly the best choice for most people in this program.
The following information was partially in response to a question Brett asked regarding endorphins but since I think that much of the info is pertinent to this topic, I'll repost some of the information here because the initial post of this thread seems to quote some FDA info yet ignore other FDA info and downgrades the effect of Naloxone on our bodies, and ultimately, our progress to be free of these meds.
As I quote below, I use the FDA info along with multiple conversations with the manufacturer and other sources to make the important point that some members here, along with even doctors in States where Sub. is available, are not following FDA instructions with both Subutex and Suboxone. And some members are discounting the effect of Naloxone and its' power to block endorphin absorption by the body. This is all in contrast to the instructions of both the manufacturer and the FDA.
Now, as we all know, Suboxone has two components: Bup. and Naloxone. As a partial opiate, yes, the Bup. will block some of your endorphins because it occupies a portion of the very receptor in which your endorphins are seeking to place themselves. That's the great thing about Bup. is that since it is only a partial opiate, it only partially blocks the endorphin absorption. That's why Bup. is such a great drug to help people taper off of as opposed to full opiates.
Next, you have Naloxone. Naloxone was placed together with Bup. as a method to discourage people from shooting up the Suboxone into your body. Good idea but there are drawbacks. First, anyone that is determined enough can figure out from sources on the internet how to get around the Naloxone "road block". Due to the rules of this forum (and common decency), I am prohibited from explaining how to do that.
Second, Naloxone is an endorphin blocker. For more info on Naloxone as an endorphin blocker, check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone
http://www.hallym.ac.kr/~neuro/kns/tutor/medical/endo.html. The info regarding Naloxone's blocking effects is near the bottom of the article.
http://www.ucihealth.com/News/UCI%20Health/bloodPressure.htm. This article talks a little about Naloxone's ability to disrupt the body's endorphin system when the patient is using acupuncture. By the way, regular acupuncture treatments are an excellent way to help your body's endorphin system. I have used it previously and I can personally attest to it.
Now, keep in mind that while it's true that Naloxone blocks endorphins, the question is, is there enough Naloxone in Suboxone to block your endorphins from reaching your receptors? The answer can be found in a 4 week study by Body System and Treatment Group where the Naloxone in Suboxone was found to have caused various side effects, and while endorphins were obviously not addressed, the fact that more people experienced more pain while taking Suboxone clearly indicates that the pain-blocking effects of endorphins were they themselves blocked. The study can be found at: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/suboxone_ad.htm. I know there are people that like to create their own world of what they think is the way things should be but I can only go with what medical science has proved. If someone has a problem with that info, please address it to the source and not me. So, clearly, contrary to the dismissing of Naloxone's bioavailability, it does have the ability, and there is enough of it in Suboxone, to block essential endorphins which could very possibly speed your recovery and end your need to remain in this program.
When the FDA approved Subutex/Suboxone, they issued instructions that patients should go into the Induction Phase using Subutex. The manufacturer has verbally stated the same to me personally (the name of the person I spoke to is available by email to me only). Now, the question is why would the FDA want the Induction Phase performed with Subutex? Simply because they are aware that Suboxone has more side effects and that they want to see how you do on the Bup. first before moving you to Suboxone. In this manner, if you start having some weird side effects, then the doctor could easily identify the problem and move you back to Subutex. The FDA info about this can be found at: http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/2002/20732pharmacist.pdf#search=%22subutex%20induction%22 . Additional info can be found at: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/suboxone_ids.htm.
The odd thing here is that, to my knowledge, the members "banging the drum" for Suboxone, have they themselves never been on Subutex and therefore do not know if Subutex could indeed make them feel better and help them progress off this medication even faster!! My doctor has stated that none of his other patients have progressed as rapidly as I have. While there could be any number of reasons why I have done better than his other patients, one thing is certain, of all his other patients, I'm the only one on Subutex!! All his other patients are taking Suboxone.
So, to summarize, yes, your endorphin level will rise as you decrease your dose level and you can do things like exercise and eat brain-repairing foods that will aid in that recovery. I recommend a book titled, "End Your Addiciton Now" by Dr. Charles Gant. It has great info regarding what things you should do to help your body, especially your brain, to recover. And, if you find that you are experiencing more pain and other side effects with Suboxone, then what I would do is simply ask my doctor to try putting me on Subutex or putting you back on Subutex, assuming your doctor followed FDA instruction and had you on Subutex during the Induction Phase.
As we've all discussed, everybody is different. Endorphin production will operate differently in everyone. Some of the factors involved in endorphin production is what was your DOC, how long were you on it, how healthy you are, what you eat, stress levels, nutrition, etc. Some people here use Suboxone and say they do wonderfully. I used Suboxone and it made me sick so my doctor put me on Subutex and I'm doing fine. The other advantage for me using Subutex is that I can purchase the 8mg. pills and cut them to the dose I need. The manufacturer recommends against doing that with Suboxone or Subutex but they don't mind patients doing that with Subutex because the only active ingredient in Subutex is Buprenorphrine. However, they don't recommend and they are firm on this, that you don't cut the Suboxone tablets because there is no guarantee that you will get the correct balanced amount of Bup. and Naloxone in your dose.
I take to heart everyone's concern about endorphins because they truly are the body's natural pain-killing and even "euphoric-casuing" drug. I used to go to the gym and do heavy weightlifting. After my workout, I always felt so good it felt better than anything else I could do for my body.
I'm hoping that within a few days I will have the opportunity to post a "Facts about Subutex" topic that will specifically address issues surrounding Subutex and why it is truly the best choice for most people in this program.
Hello Fishmeal,
long time no Speak. just went over your Data Mining.
Very Interesting facts.
You asked "Now, the question is why would the FDA want the Induction Phase performed with Subutex?".
I thought Subutex was used in Induction Phase because it was Customary for the patient to be in The Doctors office while taking the First Few Doses, therefore the patient being under the observation of Doctor/Clinician would not try to inject the Pill.
Also went over the the Link you provided "http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/suboxone_ad.htm".(page 4) Some interesting Facts. The study Showed that of all the Patients on Suboxone in the study 4%, as opposed to 8% of patients on Subutex, complained of back Pain. I read somewhere that Suboxone was a bit stronger. Not a fact, just read some where.
And your post on "Naloxone". (page 2) Under "Pharmacokinetics". Naloxone has a "mean elimination half-life" of 1.1 hrs. Opposed to Suboxone which has 37 hrs. Yes, I think that if one is Dosing themselves with Suboxone every few hours then it might have some effect. But doses once a day or bid should not have any negative effects.
I do not think there is any Conspiracy in the naloxone.
It is just a pure fact that addicts, not all addicts, will try to inject the stuff. Why do some Clinics prescribe one and no the other during Induction phase? maybe some clinics stick to just one stuff for the purposes of less confusion.
Subutex is about, I believe, 25% more expensive then Suboxone, if one has no insurance.
Peace and Love
long time no Speak. just went over your Data Mining.
Very Interesting facts.
You asked "Now, the question is why would the FDA want the Induction Phase performed with Subutex?".
I thought Subutex was used in Induction Phase because it was Customary for the patient to be in The Doctors office while taking the First Few Doses, therefore the patient being under the observation of Doctor/Clinician would not try to inject the Pill.
Also went over the the Link you provided "http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/suboxone_ad.htm".(page 4) Some interesting Facts. The study Showed that of all the Patients on Suboxone in the study 4%, as opposed to 8% of patients on Subutex, complained of back Pain. I read somewhere that Suboxone was a bit stronger. Not a fact, just read some where.
And your post on "Naloxone". (page 2) Under "Pharmacokinetics". Naloxone has a "mean elimination half-life" of 1.1 hrs. Opposed to Suboxone which has 37 hrs. Yes, I think that if one is Dosing themselves with Suboxone every few hours then it might have some effect. But doses once a day or bid should not have any negative effects.
I do not think there is any Conspiracy in the naloxone.
It is just a pure fact that addicts, not all addicts, will try to inject the stuff. Why do some Clinics prescribe one and no the other during Induction phase? maybe some clinics stick to just one stuff for the purposes of less confusion.
Subutex is about, I believe, 25% more expensive then Suboxone, if one has no insurance.
Peace and Love
Have an Answer?
You are reading content posted in the Addiction: Substance Abuse Community
Is treating glaucoma with marijuana all hype, or can hemp actually help?
If you think marijuana has no ill effects on your health, this article from Missouri Medicine may make you think again.
Julia Aharonov, DO, reveals the quickest way to beat drug withdrawal.
Tricks to help you quit for good.
A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
