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Need HELP With Anxious Child - May Be Asperger's(?)
Hello! My 5 year old's development has always been asynchratic. For instance, he can do - and understand - math up to basic multiplication/division level, and read at a 1-2nd grade level; but, he does have some auditory processing AND sensory integration issues - which in some areas have made him test up to a year behind. While he can get by OK with peers, he seems to get along best with kids that are about 6 months or so younger ... and older teens/adults. He was evaluated for Asperger's at 3 1/2 by a well-known neurologist at a university in NYC resulting in no official diagnosis; but has been in Speech & Occupational Therapies for almost 18 months (soon to be released from OT).
He suffers from anxiety I'm sure (runs in family), and does have some routines like having to run his hand along a railing - and going back to touch an area if he misses it. However, if you interrupt the routine, he won't get agitated - usually. He is often VERY bossy with us at home (ie "No, you HAVE to say this .. you HAVE to do that .. it is SUPPOSED to be like this..); and, I see this within a group of children at times too. He will let other children do "their thing" during play (some days better than others for sure); but, you can tell he's doing it not so much out of enjoyment, but the fact he knows it's the "right thing to do". He also seems to NEED to win or be first at nearly EVERYTHING. Oddly enough, if another child is winning or beats him at something - he really is genuinely happy for them.
We have drummed into his head - clearly and calmly - and nearly endlessly, the need to not be bossy; and the virtues of not always having to win and make competitions out of everything. It seems to be almost a compulsion - like he is impulsively driven to be bossy, and having to "win". The few times he behaves well in those areas, we surely praise him - but the effects don't seem to last.
Also, if he's actively engaged in an activity, he fairly often misses a more-subtle cue from a friend - although not always. And while general and situational transitions don't bother him, he often has trouble with thought transition (one topic to next).
He also does poorly in a more-chaotic atmosphere. If we're going to a new school or camp, he must get there early - and wants to know EXACTLY how many kids will be there.
I know after reading an article by Tony Attwood, and hearing other parents of kids with Asperger's talk about their kids - that this is common behavior seen in kids with AS.
Conversely, while my son does not posses the same gile of children his age, he does not take things nearly as literal as kids with AS do. And while I'd say he's immature for his chronological age, it doesn't seem to be as profound as kids with AS - which I understand can be 33% or more behind chronological age, emotionally
1) Can this still be AS? Or comorbid anxiety with SID? 2)HOW do we best help him with this anxiety, short of medication? Thanks!
He suffers from anxiety I'm sure (runs in family), and does have some routines like having to run his hand along a railing - and going back to touch an area if he misses it. However, if you interrupt the routine, he won't get agitated - usually. He is often VERY bossy with us at home (ie "No, you HAVE to say this .. you HAVE to do that .. it is SUPPOSED to be like this..); and, I see this within a group of children at times too. He will let other children do "their thing" during play (some days better than others for sure); but, you can tell he's doing it not so much out of enjoyment, but the fact he knows it's the "right thing to do". He also seems to NEED to win or be first at nearly EVERYTHING. Oddly enough, if another child is winning or beats him at something - he really is genuinely happy for them.
We have drummed into his head - clearly and calmly - and nearly endlessly, the need to not be bossy; and the virtues of not always having to win and make competitions out of everything. It seems to be almost a compulsion - like he is impulsively driven to be bossy, and having to "win". The few times he behaves well in those areas, we surely praise him - but the effects don't seem to last.
Also, if he's actively engaged in an activity, he fairly often misses a more-subtle cue from a friend - although not always. And while general and situational transitions don't bother him, he often has trouble with thought transition (one topic to next).
He also does poorly in a more-chaotic atmosphere. If we're going to a new school or camp, he must get there early - and wants to know EXACTLY how many kids will be there.
I know after reading an article by Tony Attwood, and hearing other parents of kids with Asperger's talk about their kids - that this is common behavior seen in kids with AS.
Conversely, while my son does not posses the same gile of children his age, he does not take things nearly as literal as kids with AS do. And while I'd say he's immature for his chronological age, it doesn't seem to be as profound as kids with AS - which I understand can be 33% or more behind chronological age, emotionally
1) Can this still be AS? Or comorbid anxiety with SID? 2)HOW do we best help him with this anxiety, short of medication? Thanks!
Just a word-to-the-wise ... Neuropsych testing can be VERY expensive and often times difficult to get insurance coverage for. I know you did not imply this, but it is not an "easy fix".
My son was diagnosed with severe Golbal Delays at 3. He was in a PDD preschool class 5 days/week 8:30-2:30 for 2 1/2 yrs. (Intensive Program) to help make up for "lost time" -- he is not Autistic but his symptoms presented very Autistic-like. In a nutshell he is now 7 and over the last few years has had many support services in school and out. He suffers from severe ADHD and also struggles with anxiety amongst a myriad of other things ... and I am still working on getting my insurance company to pay for the testing, they have very strict guidelines. Due to the extensive costs of testiing, paying out of pocket is not an option for us ... so please keep your fingers crossed??!!
My son was diagnosed with severe Golbal Delays at 3. He was in a PDD preschool class 5 days/week 8:30-2:30 for 2 1/2 yrs. (Intensive Program) to help make up for "lost time" -- he is not Autistic but his symptoms presented very Autistic-like. In a nutshell he is now 7 and over the last few years has had many support services in school and out. He suffers from severe ADHD and also struggles with anxiety amongst a myriad of other things ... and I am still working on getting my insurance company to pay for the testing, they have very strict guidelines. Due to the extensive costs of testiing, paying out of pocket is not an option for us ... so please keep your fingers crossed??!!
oops! probably posted that last post in the wrong site!, but another note, Jakob (age 6.8) also exhibits some of the same behaviours such as not wanting to be redirected until he has completed whatever task they are working on in school, seems to have his feelings hurt very easily, and gets really down on himself if he thinks he has done something wrong (whew, talk about a run-on-sentence!)Anyhoo, the teachers found that if they set a timer with the appropriate time (for all of the children, not just singling Jakob out) it seems to have helped.
Hi there, fairly new to this forum. I have had a chance to read some of the posts and have gleaned some great ideas! It's nice to have some where to go.
Brief history: We adopted our precious little boy Jakob who was born at 23wks gestation. We got him at 11 months and he was 9lbs and 17" long. To make a long (and wonderful) story short, he is doing marvelous!! He is now 6 years old and plays T-ball and interacts very well with all children (so far!)Since he did have some pretty significant medical issues (cleft lip/palate, severe reflux that required surgery and a feeding-tube that has since been out since he was 15months old, and some developmental delays) My husband thinks I am too "soft"on him. maybe I am, at times but I believe it is to sometimes over-compinsate (sp?)for the rough go of it that he has had, (and still will have) He does seem to have a good grasp of the boundaries. He also knows the basic rules of "You don't hurt yourself, don't hurt others, and don't hurt the house. I have noticed that recently he has been "talking back" which I know is just part of his exerting his independence, but how much is too much or is there such a thing. It isn't really that bad (yet!), just something that I have noticed recently, and I would rather "nip it in the bud". I myself, came from a household that you did not question authority and everything was just expected to be done. I am scared s*****ss that I will become the type of parent who is feared. Does anyone have any suggestions??
Regards,
Brief history: We adopted our precious little boy Jakob who was born at 23wks gestation. We got him at 11 months and he was 9lbs and 17" long. To make a long (and wonderful) story short, he is doing marvelous!! He is now 6 years old and plays T-ball and interacts very well with all children (so far!)Since he did have some pretty significant medical issues (cleft lip/palate, severe reflux that required surgery and a feeding-tube that has since been out since he was 15months old, and some developmental delays) My husband thinks I am too "soft"on him. maybe I am, at times but I believe it is to sometimes over-compinsate (sp?)for the rough go of it that he has had, (and still will have) He does seem to have a good grasp of the boundaries. He also knows the basic rules of "You don't hurt yourself, don't hurt others, and don't hurt the house. I have noticed that recently he has been "talking back" which I know is just part of his exerting his independence, but how much is too much or is there such a thing. It isn't really that bad (yet!), just something that I have noticed recently, and I would rather "nip it in the bud". I myself, came from a household that you did not question authority and everything was just expected to be done. I am scared s*****ss that I will become the type of parent who is feared. Does anyone have any suggestions??
Regards,
Hans Asperger (February 18, 1906
My daughter has aspergers. She is very affectionate, almost too much so. The difficuilty she has is understanding why not everyone wants her hugs hisses, leaning on etc. she also takes things extremely literally. She doesn't understand things like "tears of joy". She was just tested almost a year ago, she was 9 at the time. I think it would be hard to diagnosis her when she was 5. At 5 they said she was ADHD, developmently delayed and had anxiety issues. AS didn't come up until she was 9 and she was having trouble making and keeping friends because she is so affectionate. Good luck
"I just don't hear of many Autistic kids who are "sensory seeking" and overly affectionate."
Juliemom, most autistic kids have sensory seeking issues. This is why repetitive and stereotypical behaviors are listed as one of the main criteria for the diagnosis in the DSM IV. Sensory seeking can take all forms, from visual to physical. Some autistics like deep pressure. Temple Grandin, a famous high functioning autistic who is a professor at Colorado State made a squeeze machine which is used in therapy for many children, not just autistic. There is a saying that goes like this "If you know one autistic, you know one autistic" if you know what I mean. These kids are all very different but have a triad of "like symptoms". I know and have met dozens of autistic kids and every single one of them is affectionate. My son will sometimes hug people he doesn't even know. Also, I don't think most boys are as affectionate as girls.
Juliemom, most autistic kids have sensory seeking issues. This is why repetitive and stereotypical behaviors are listed as one of the main criteria for the diagnosis in the DSM IV. Sensory seeking can take all forms, from visual to physical. Some autistics like deep pressure. Temple Grandin, a famous high functioning autistic who is a professor at Colorado State made a squeeze machine which is used in therapy for many children, not just autistic. There is a saying that goes like this "If you know one autistic, you know one autistic" if you know what I mean. These kids are all very different but have a triad of "like symptoms". I know and have met dozens of autistic kids and every single one of them is affectionate. My son will sometimes hug people he doesn't even know. Also, I don't think most boys are as affectionate as girls.
Thanks for the info. I really did assume, from a lot of books and internet comments, that one major aspect of Autism was a lack of affection and empathy. My son is concerned for every little ant that crosses his path as well as anyone who is hurt. Unless of course HE was the one who ran in to and toppled the other kid to the ground. Then it is like "hey he was where I needed to go".His social issue is more of not caring one iota what others think about him when he blows his nose across his shirt, disrobes on the t-ball field("What I'm hot and so I taking off my clothes") even if the other kids openly chide him. He really doesn't care. Maybe it will eventually sink in. I just don't hear of many Autistic kids who are "sensory seeking" and overly affectionate.
Autistic children can be very affectionate, that is simply a myth. Unfortunately I don't know where it comes from but is repeated throughout the internet world. Even severe kids are affection with their parents.
Hi, We are having a consult in the AM with a Neurologist over VERY similar circumstances. Having already gone the ADD route with my 6 yo son and tried Meds with nasty effects we sought a second opinion. The second psychiatrist suggested Autism spect disorder , specifically Aspergers, and since then the schools did an OT evaluation which turned up Sensory integration issues. So darn confusing. My son constantly seeks out others to play with and LOVES affection. This doesn't seem like Autism?? My little guy is what the OT referred to as SENSORY SEEKING. Normally his need to literally run in circles, jump on furniture and slam in to you for hugs was just seen by us as his being a puppy like little boy.However this year I am noticing how kids back off from his displays of affection and loud in-your-face constant talking. I keep hearing from the teachers that he is so incredibly intelligent and he is currently two grade levels above in his ability yet he is still acting like a hyper three year old. Also he has no compunction about arguing with adults over anything. Usually with an amusing level of vocabulary. It is confusing and I wish you luck-you are not alone.
I think he sounds like a bright and curious child. I'll show my age, but kids just can't be kids in this day and age. He's young, obviously gifted, and will have a lot to offer the world. Let him grow, experience things, play, just be a kid until "proven" otherwise. Why the push to put a label on him so early?
I'd actually rather NOT push a label on him.
But if he were to have a real disorder - I'd want him to get the treatment he needs. And I know that the sooner he gets that the better his outlook.
And thank you doctor for your observations and suggestions. I know he's pretty young and could wind up evening-out OK - it's the waiting until then that can be pretty worrisome.
It is a difficult line to walk with discipline; I don't want to make his anxiety worse either.
But if he were to have a real disorder - I'd want him to get the treatment he needs. And I know that the sooner he gets that the better his outlook.
And thank you doctor for your observations and suggestions. I know he's pretty young and could wind up evening-out OK - it's the waiting until then that can be pretty worrisome.
It is a difficult line to walk with discipline; I don't want to make his anxiety worse either.
I had my son tested by a neuropsychologist. She has her own practice, plus is a professor at Ucla. Most of the Ucla kids who have learning disorders, brain damage after an accident, etc get sent to her. She was very expensive 3600.00 out of pocket. It was well worth it. She spent 3 day's evaluating him, testing with breaks and a long luch to burn off energy. I would say it is much more intesive than any school system would do as far as learning disorders, nuerologist as far as diagnosing brain problems, and developmental pediatrician to test were he is at psychologically and cognitively. This might be a place for you to start. If anything you will be armed with the correct data to be able to understand his shortcommings. Searching for a diagnosis is ok, but really what you want to know is where he is falling short, a diagnosis makes a big difference when trying to get the school system to categorize him for the correct placement, and for insurance, and some times for med's. If she told you, as with my son, that he has problems with his executive functioning, and rote verbal memory, visual spacial problems, along with other medical issues would you be able to understand? I studied the report for hours on end to understand all of the technical stuff. Basically he can't organize the things he does remember and the only way he is able to remember them is by constant repetition and he needs to be explained everything step by step, we have to connect the dot's for him. Diagnosis for these symptoms cognitive written and verbal learning disorder or under the general umbrella of dyslexia. Sorry so long, I feel your pain I was there too. Still searching in some areas. Good Luck !
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
It really can be a challenge to try to diagnose a condition such as Asperger's in a child so young. At this point, I'd lean more in the direction of anxiety + some neurointegrative problems (e.g., sensory integration) + developmental unevenness (particularly re: social/emotional development). All this will become clearer as your son grows and develops. While it certainly make sense to model a healthy attitude toward competiiton and bossiness, try not to drum this into your son - it won't make much difference. He will learn via the give-and -take of social relations. Relative to the sort of anxiety he displays, there is a limited amount that can be effective at his age. Preparations for new experinces and for transitions make sense, of course, but when brain chemistry is at work a biological remedy is worth considering. You might arrange for a consult with a child psychiatrist to sound him/her out on what might be options pharmacologically.
High IQ's and giftedness run in our family - AND my husband's.
My son HAD some obsessions - he knew 50+ car and truck brands at age 3 (and could tell some just by the tail-lights at night!) But the obsession with that has gone away. He still loves to play with his cars, but, he doesn't perseverate on them. He plays and pretends with all kinds of stuff like a normal kid.
He is/was in Occupational Therapy for mild-to-moderate problems with Bi-lateral coordination, tactile defensiveness, Dyspraxia, and weak fine motor (mostly grading of movement - he has shoulder instability which stems from mild Hypotonia).
He has memorized some TV-channel schedules, but, doesn't repeat them to people at all.
If he talks to someone on the phone - sometimes he'll have a conversation with them, but sometimes he'll just talk "at" them.
He is VERY sensitive too - and gets VERY concerned if someone is hurt or sick. When he found out his first preschool teacher had cancer, he got all of his paints out and made 6 pictures for her. It can be the subtle stuff during play he might miss.
The other incredible thing he does is he can estimate stuff. He can actually tell almost exactly how much time has gone by (in minutes) - and on the show Deal or No Deal (his favorite) he can tell you how much the offer's going to be (most of the time) within a couple of thousand dollars!
It's all very confusing because some days I think he's fine - and other days I'm sure the neurologist made a mistake.
And, I do understand that gifted kids can have some of the same symptoms as kids with AS, ADD, and other disorders. Some thought ADD because of the difficulty with thought transition. Often, he impulsively will answer a question incorrectly because his brain is stuck on something else, and he hears the question in sort of a delayed manner.
My son HAD some obsessions - he knew 50+ car and truck brands at age 3 (and could tell some just by the tail-lights at night!) But the obsession with that has gone away. He still loves to play with his cars, but, he doesn't perseverate on them. He plays and pretends with all kinds of stuff like a normal kid.
He is/was in Occupational Therapy for mild-to-moderate problems with Bi-lateral coordination, tactile defensiveness, Dyspraxia, and weak fine motor (mostly grading of movement - he has shoulder instability which stems from mild Hypotonia).
He has memorized some TV-channel schedules, but, doesn't repeat them to people at all.
If he talks to someone on the phone - sometimes he'll have a conversation with them, but sometimes he'll just talk "at" them.
He is VERY sensitive too - and gets VERY concerned if someone is hurt or sick. When he found out his first preschool teacher had cancer, he got all of his paints out and made 6 pictures for her. It can be the subtle stuff during play he might miss.
The other incredible thing he does is he can estimate stuff. He can actually tell almost exactly how much time has gone by (in minutes) - and on the show Deal or No Deal (his favorite) he can tell you how much the offer's going to be (most of the time) within a couple of thousand dollars!
It's all very confusing because some days I think he's fine - and other days I'm sure the neurologist made a mistake.
And, I do understand that gifted kids can have some of the same symptoms as kids with AS, ADD, and other disorders. Some thought ADD because of the difficulty with thought transition. Often, he impulsively will answer a question incorrectly because his brain is stuck on something else, and he hears the question in sort of a delayed manner.
I am not the expert and I will be interested to hear what the expert has to say. Many of the characteristics you cited are listed among trait for gifted children as well. They are often ahead of their peers academically but socially very immature. They are often perfectionistic, routine oriented and highly sensitive. Some are even labelled with ADD because they underachieve in the classroom when infact their behavior is a result of subpar materials and methods. You can go to this website for more information:http://www.giftsforlearning.com
So to the expert-- where are the lines between all the diagnoses like Aspergers and ADD and those of gifted children who just might be wired a little differently? I'm sure it's a fine line indeed.
So to the expert-- where are the lines between all the diagnoses like Aspergers and ADD and those of gifted children who just might be wired a little differently? I'm sure it's a fine line indeed.
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