I actually just did round #3 of chemo on Wed. I was originally only going to get 3 rounds but my CA 125 went from 27 before surgery of large complex cycst, to 56 post op, to 10 after 1st round of chemo. Haven't gotten the number since #2 chemo yet. My two docs were disagreeing as to 3 or 6 rounds. With the increase we've all agreed on 6. I posted that question here before and agree with everyone...do it right the first time. I guess that's why nothing has been mentioned about any menopausal meds which is fine with me. I don't want to think about more pills right now. I will use this thread as a guide when I meet with my oncologist in January again. I am glad I posted as it's helped so many of us!!
I don't know what I'll do the days my girls don't nap...it's down time I NEED! I guess it's inevitable though. I hope you enjoyed the park.

Yes, every since the surgery I have feel like I have to urinate constantly, frequent, urgent, just like an infection.  I told my doctor and he treated me for a UTI which didn't work.  The urine came back from culture as neg too.  I am thinking  cytocele (bladder prolapse)?, some infection they didn't test and treat me for ?  could I have suddenly developed IC?  I DONT KNOW, but this is very frustrating, and I don't expect any physician to figure it out. It must be something I figure out on my own most likely.  Do you think if it were caused by lack of  progesterone, it would have showed up immediatly after surgery?  That is the only thing that makes me wonder because dont some hormones  stay in the system for a while after removal of ovaries?  Thanks,  Merytre

ps...so far I am only having hot flashes at night. Maybe a few during the day here and there but nothing uncomfortable. I know the chemo can make them worse and actually they taper off after each chemo treatment. That's good right??

OH isn't that just not getting a call back just incredibly irritating?  I am so sorry to hear that.  Arrrrrgggggggg... doctors who don't return calls or emails.... pttoweeeyy on him.....
I do have two friends, both nurses, one who had a hysterectomy, who had good results from him.  I will ask them if they had trouble getting through.  I do know they waited a long time for appointments.
There's gotta be others out there like him .. I found a great guy (a certified medical doctor who has an interest in bio identicals) in my city.  He is very conservative and careful in his approach.  Incidentally, he is dubious about sections of Suzanne Somers new book, as is Dr. Erika Schwartz, for those of you who know who she is.  He says the Wiley protocal she refers to is dangerous and unfounded...

WOW, what a world of information.  I am going to follow lori's lead and print it all out.  I am on vivadelle dot now, but having some urinary problems, not sure what. Also, sexual drive isn't great, but its still early.  Maybe I need some test. or proges.  I will talk with my doctor.  Merytre

Are you going through chemo now or are you finished? (sorry if you already said this!). I only ask because I read somewhere that you should not be taking HRT while your going through chemo - something to do with the estrogen affecting the Taxol or something like that. No one told me not to take my Premarin, but I wasn't being treated by my Gyne/onc - maybe he would have told me not to, who knows. If your going to talk to your Dr about this, make sure you ask him about how it would interact with the chemo. I know that many women who cannot take HRT use anti-depressants, as they tend to curb the side effects of menopause. Maybe that might be a route, who knows. Your husband sounds like a god send - I told you he would understand! It's hard to feel sexy on the best of days, let alone when your bald! I know the feeling! Take care and I really do hope you have some brighter days ahead - hope you got your 2yr old down for a nap - my three yr old doesn't nap anymore, so it's off to the park!
Becky

Hi, and hi to everyone. This is a great post. I will be eager to hear how things go for you, Loralai and Merytre.

Northrup, Erika Swartz, Reiss...Dr. John Lee (the "father" of progesterone studies) are great resources...I keep picking up these books before falling asleep and I find a few paragraphs to go through and I just say "WOW"...our bodies are interesting machines.

Just while I have a moment, I want to also recommend Covert Bailey who has nothing to do with the topic really, but in a way he does. He is retired now, but I found him in 1982 and his book "Fit or Fat?" changed my life. He did not write a ton of books...but "Fit or Fat," "Fit or Fat for Women," and "Smart Exercise" are all on my bookshelf. Understanding the effects of any exercise is so fascinating. He explains things so well. I credit him with helping me stay diabetes-free (huge family issue for my immediate family) and able to have some say over the weight issue and reshaping the body. I struggled with this again after surgical menopause...and was too fatigued for a long time to get back on the exercise track, but once I did (after I got squared away hormonally) I started to be able to count on feeling well and in control. Menopausal weight issues can be frustrating, and when I am out of balance with the hormones, I really suffer and thyroid issues get worse, too, but when everything is clicking (balanced hormones, rest, eating healthfully, etc)...at 53 I have more energy than some of my 26 year old co-workers. Well, just a wanted to get in a word about the good man.
--------------------------------------
Merytre....Bladder issues? Oh brother...such a pain, right? I went for testing this Spring and had a less than pleasant experience ...and they wanted to set up more testing...and all along I was trying to tell them that I was convinced my problems were from a hormone issue. I had a problem before my surgery years ago and once I got on a steady stream of hormones, things improved greatly, but I had two Urologists at the time say they did not know what to do with me...

So, my point is...talk to someone who knows about the bioidentical hormones and see if that person will talk to your doctor....just a thought. My bladder issues have been improving since I had my dose of progesterone raised...Hormones can really affect the smooth muscles...(think of getting cramps in the uterus...fully afffected by hormones)...so, a decrease in hormones can affect smooth muscles..and cause joint pain, bladder issues, etc.

Best of luck. Keep printing!

Mary

I have to give you all a BIG thanks for the wonderful responses. I had to print it out to read it!! I am going to keep it filed away too so I have it for future reading in the off chance I need any of this. Wow...so much to learn! My doctor hasn't even brought up any HRT or bio stuff nothing in regards to being menopausal, lack of uterus...nothing. Maybe because we are concentrating on my chemo? Maybe because I really haven't had any problems other than the lack of libido I have not mentioned yet. As I started to read the responses last night I got filled up with tears...more just from feeling supported that I am not alone in feeing this way! Of course my husband is like "what's wrong!" and we ended up talking about it. I told him how I felt bad and he told me I have nothing to feel bad about. He completely understands and now that I elaborated on some of the things I felt like being bald and not sexy...he understands even more. I told him if I still feel the same by the end of my last treatment which should be 12/27 I'll talk to the doctor about the cremes you have mentioned. In the meantime I want to focus on just getting through this chemo. I feel so much better knowing he's okay with that decision too. He's great what can I say. I've been with my husband since we were 16 & 17. He says there's a reason we've been together this long (now 34 & 35) and it's not going anywhere. He teased that I should be in my sexual prime soon enough and can make it up to him LOL! Anyway, in the meantime I will get the books that were mentioned too. I love any resources and being prepared. I also read about a book from the Women and Cancer magazine I flipped through at chemo yesterday. I'll pass on the name of the book (it's in my notebook in the van). It seemed like it would be helpful too. You are ALL so wonderful! I wish you all good health and happiness! I now have to go yell at my 2 year old to take a NAP! Lori

Thanks Katie... Yes, Dr.Pettle must be good - he is obviously so busy because his office doesn't return phone calls or emails! I've given up on him to say the least...I'll let you know how I make out with this other lady - I'm not interested in supplements or herbs or any other lotions and potions she might try to convince me I need - I just want to deal with my hormones. We'll see...
Becky

If you are scared of the estrogen (and rightly so, I would be too) find out if you could start just by taking the bio identical natural progesterone on its own....
Tybear, best of luck with the naturopath, FYI, Dr Alvin Pettle is in the TO area, specializes in this, and is a medical doctor....
Cheers!

My Dr put me on Premarin right after my hysterectomy and diagnosis of stage 3c ovarian Cancer. I'm 27yrs old, so I guess the estrogen thing was a given. I pressured him about testing my tumors for estrogen receptors because I'm still wary of taking it, but he won't do it. I just sent my pathology slides out for a second opinion and I'm having the other Dr do the test. Normally, ovarian tumors aren't estrogen driven, but certain types have a tendancy to be. One of them is micropapillary serous carcinoma, which is what I have. I'm also going to see a naturopath next week to talk about bio-identical hormones. What can I say - Mary and Katie have convinced me! Ask your Dr to test your tumors for estrogen receptors - good luck!
Becky

Thanks for all your info. I am going to go get Northrups book.  I have one question for you. Did any of your docs ever tell you that bioidentical could CAUSE cancer?  Especially if your cell type is estrogen driven?

My cancer was stage 2 and I just finished chemo. I had a total hystorectomy but from what regular docs are saying I can never use any estrogen or estrogenic type of drug/herb.  Have you ever heard that?  thanks for your time

Kimberly

Hi, yes, I hear you... I have to admit, I, too, was surprised when my oncologist came in the day after the surgery and put a Vivelle patch on my...well, backside. (I had the surgery for the early diagnosis for ovarian cancer, and I also had the LEEP procedure two years before that for severe cervical dysplasia, which also can be caused by too much estrogen in the system...as mine was not caused by HPV.)

Then I found out that my own sister (a nurse and writer on medical issues) had been on the bio's since her hysterectomy for near cancer issues (Hyperplasia) back in 1994. But, it is not something we ever talked about. She decided to go off of them just this past year. She is 66...exercises daily, eats unbelievably healthfully, etc...but, I cannot remember why she went off..I think the new doc down in Fla. thought she should but left the reason vague...

So, sister went off and just went back on due to a horrible year and no sleep for six months unless she took a sleeping pill. Now, she and I have talked and she is digging back into her research because her doctor has her on a patch and my sister thought that it was not a bioidentical. But, it is...It is Climara. Now, this scares me a bit that the doctor AND my sister did not know that it was a bioidentical. My sister took it to appease the doctor but was about to go back to the doctor in Massachusettes who started her on the bio hormones in the first place. I cannot believe that she is not on progesterone to balance things out. She is going to go back on that, too. This is where it gets very confusing.

And, again, this is where you have to arm yourself with information. And, there is always the chance that you may not be able to use some of these hormones(I promise I don't mean to sound negative...Northrup's book addresses this issue and gives lots of other ideas...) but if you keep reading, you will read the explanations as to why you might want to look into all this.

Northrup explains why and how the progesterone lessens the ill effects of too much estrogen. The thing is, you are producing estrogen in your body. It is manufactured in women's fat...it is a byproduct of something...with a very, very long name that I would have to look up. Yet is you balance that estrogen with progesterone, you get the benefits of progesterone along with the help that it provides to make sure you are not out of balance with too much estrogen. But, then this is another topic because, you might not be producing enough estrogen to help with the symptoms you have...or the amount of estrogen fluctuates...some women take progesterone only, but if one does that, they might not really get a lot of help because it takes estrogen to keep the cell receptors open to accept the progesterone and most women in menopause probably don't have enough to do this...

And, according to the studies I have read, progesterone protects the cell receptor sites that are fed by estrogen...from getting too much estrogen.

And, as far as the doctor's comment...well, there is the patch that is either .25, .50, .75, and 1.0. There is no guess work there. They try to use the lowest dose possible to get optimum results. Dr. Erika Swartz likes estrodial only since it is the predominant estrogen of younger healthy women. She does not like Estrone (that is the fat produced in menopausal women whether or not they are using supplemental estrogen) and estriol is nice to use vaginally (and they say that it stays THERE...and does not effect you systemically) for moisture and bladder issues, but it is very weak, and commonly found in pregnant women....

I am going off on tangents and I am looking at the clock...so I should get going. But Chickpea, you bring up a good point...which is why I mentioned that if you want to work with someone on the bioidenticals, make sure you find someone who truely understands them. Again, I understand that you might not be a candidate for them, but I honestly would not keep asking around and gathering as much info as you can.

So, check out Northrup's book and also...check out Uzzi Reiss's book on Natural hormones. He has a section in the back that addresses this very issue and it is very interesting.

Best of luck to you. One place  you could try is a compounding pharmacy. Some of the pharmacists are just great and well versed in these hormones...(insulin is a bioidentical hormone....so, this category is not just about female hormones)...in other words, bioidentical does not always mean estrogen, progesterone, and testostorone..but, for us who have undergone surgical menopause and struggling with the aftermath including a cancer diagnosis..those are the ones to check out for now.

Take care, Mary

I am just wondering how you got docs to approve bioidentical hormones when you have OV cancer?  I was put on estridiol patch after my total hysterectomy and halfway into chemo I read about estrogen causing ov cancer so I talked to my oncologist and he said I can never be on any kind of estrogen or anything that is estrogenic like herbs etc.  Maybe I misunderstood but I thought he said all ov cancer are estrogen driven? Or maybe just mine is...I had a papillary serious cell.  

Then I asked my ob/gyn about bio identical and she shot that down saying there isnt enough research out there to show that women with/or who had cancer can be on that cause they dont know how "estrogenic" it is because the strengths vary when its filled every time.  I'm just curious cause I have big time hot flashes and NO sex drive at all. thanks

.... we did it yet again....
love ya, Katie

Look into taking bio identical natural progesterone. There is a lot of confusion between PROGESTIN and PROGESTERONE.
They tell you that you don't need progestin (synthetic progesterone) if you don't have a uterus.  
Progestin was manufactured to prevent the uterine cancer that Premarin and other synthetic estogen causes.  It is not natural, not even close.
Your body does still need progesterone (or whatever we have currently available that is as close to it as we can get!)
You want to try say a 3 or 4% progesterone cream twice a day.  
It helps the testosterone and estrogen work better in your system.  Best wishes....

Hi...thanks for that response...But, I had to write...hoping to save you some problems if I can. I would encourage you to start to figure out the progesterone thing...I wish I had before I thought I was losing my mind three months after my surgery. It took almost a year to find out that the big problems I was having was caused by a lack of progesterone. But, it takes three months for it to totally deplete from your system, and it was three months practically to the day that I wondered what on earth was going on. About a month and a half (I was patient and prepared to wait three months to kick in which is a possibility) after I started to use the progesterone cream from the compounding pharmacy, I tell you, I cried for a week since I had not felt so good in years.

I just posted a huge post to a woman on the Menopausal support section. I just sent it and she is at the top of the questions (last check anyway)...she is having bad leg cramps as I have had and I get them when my progesterone is low.

This is where is gets soooo confusing though. Progestin is what your doctors are thinking about. That is the drug that is made by the drug company to offset the rare side effect of uterine cancer for women who take the synthetic estrogen, Premarin. Thus...Prempro (Premarin and Progesterone)...And, you are right..you would not need that because first of all, you are not on Premarin and you don't have a uterus (or you would be on Prempro...since some women do take Premarin, estrogen only, after hysterectomy). Like you, I would not take Premarin anyway...but, I have been asked by doctors why I take progesterone since I don't have a uterus. This is where all the confusion starts ...and, continues.

We need progesterone for our brains, for the soft muscle tissue (I am avoiding bladder surgery thanks to the progesterone) cholesterol and thyroid...just to name a few...oh, bone health, too....Please look into it. Thank goodness you like your docs...but, you might have to do a little bit of educating here...I did and my doctor is one of the tops in the state. But,he was willing to learn and pleased that I am getting relief.

I used to feel that the doctor would think I was being arrogant if I approached this. I don't feel that way any longer...and on the days when my hormones are not in balance (I used to order them just as I needed them...didn't plan ahead) and I cannot think straight and my legs hurt and my joints ache...etc...I am thankful that knowledge is power. I also was running low in progesterone (chronically) and I had to see a specialist for help with that...the blood test showed a small amount in my system, so my body was not utilizing the cream (I tend not to tolerate the oral progesterone well) very well and I had to have the dose raised...things are so much better now.

Sorry to go on and on...have to run to the store.

Take care, Mary

I agree with ladies who posted the two above me, losing your ovaries will knock the willies out of your system. I cannot imagine not being on biodentical hormones, it is natural and the right thing for your body I think to replace what surgery has ripped from you. I didnt mention all the sypmptoms they mentioned it helping, but I am in agreement with it all. I dont take progesterone because I dont have a uterus, just estrogen and testosterone, It really helps me. I feel alert, sharp, sexual, I havent read any books because my docs have been such great resources, but I plan to read a few of those mentioned for more information. Good Luck to you Loralai and all of the ladies trying to get their pre-surgery selves back.

YES you gals are all so right!  I agree 100%.  I have such bad meno brain though, I am finding the Ageless book a bit tough to plow through!  (I keep jumping around).  Mary educated me about bio identicals.  One thing I can tell you.  I was put on the estraderm patch right after my total hyster.  I had tons of hot flashes... but when I started using the progesterone cream, I have noticed a big reduction in them.  Sleeping better too.  I also got some estriol cream for the vaginal issues, applied directly, it is so much better I can't believe it.
Some of the stuff you all have been through... whew.....
Take care of yourselves...
Katie

Oh Loralai, I could write a thousand things. I read your post and almost wept for you.

I am 53, lost both parents and my oldest brother years ago. Diagnosed with Ovarian Cancer in August 2000 (cyst found during a tubal of all things....malignant). I did not have to have Chemo. But, my oncologist started me on Vivelle estrogen patch (a bioidentical product)but that was it.

Now, I am grateful that she did not start me on what we all think of when we hear of HRT. I don't consider myself on HRT...But, bioidentical hormones have saved my life. I had to do the research myself, and much like the writer who mentioned the testosterone, I was not helped until I was put on that, and also after getting a script for bioidentical progesterone, to balance the estrogen. The estrogen helped a bit with libido, vaginal dryness, and hot flashes and night sweats, but, three months after my surgery, I was feeling horrible. I needed the progesterone and testosterone.

Progesterone has been shown to take the ill effects of too much estrogen away...but more crucial for me was that I was heading for osteoporosis, blood sugar issues, vaginal dryness, heart palpatations, brain fog/confusion/ word retrieval issues, joint/leg pains, throid issues, high cholesterol, but the worst was the urinary incontinence. All hormone related. The progesterone has taken care of many of these problems. If I keep my system balanced with the estrogen and the progesterone, I do okay. I have to stay on top of it. And, I have to make sure I talk to people who know their way around the bioidenticals. Many people brush them off because they don't understand how helpful they can be...and, the progesterone gets all mixed up with progestins...which are icky synthetic drugs that NOBODY needs.

Back to the libido...I sat in my doc's office in tears six months after my ovaries were removed....I found sex disgusting for the first time ever....He gave me a topical testostereone that is placed on the genitals and it is helpful (make sure if you get some that it is not in a vaseline type delivery ointment...I had that kind for awhile, and eventually, it was not getting absorbed. But the testosterone in a cream base is wonderful.

Just this past year, I added testosterone like the one the writer told you about...mine is a white cream that I use on the inner thighs. Helps with mood, energy levels, clumsiness (no kidding!) tolerance to loud noises, etc. Again, though, I still use the topical one on the genital area about three times a week...

Please do some reading on all of this and I think you will start to feel hopeful. I would start with Christianne Northrup,M.D. "The Wisdom of Menopause." Decide for yourself what you want to do...there are many many many ideas in that book ...and, not all of them have to do with hormone replacement. It is a wonderful book. I feel lucky to have found it...so, even though it was published in 2001, I highly recommend it.

I have to get to bed...have had little time to post. But, I had to respond to your post. Take care of yourself and as always, be an advocate for yourself. I had no idea on earth how much I would be affected by the loss of the hormones that I used to have through the ovaries (although, when  you ovulate, you get progesterone, and I was not ovulating regularly for a few years before my diagnosis and in retrospect, I know that the lack of progesterone caused many problems, including, some think, the cause of my cancer).

Not all women going through menopause have a tough time, but surgical menopause is such a shock to the body...and when you add in the estrogens that our body picks up just from the environment (Dr. Erika Swartz's books on natural hormones does a nice job explaining how and why our culture and our generation has suffered from the environmental issues that have contributed to menopausal symptoms and what you can do about it), as well as the estrogen that the fat in the body produces, ...well, no wonder many people's hormones are in flux. This gets hard to explain...here is where the research will be helpful. But, you may be out of balance due to that...all out of testosterone and progesterone due to the fact that you do not have any ovaries...to say nothing of the full plate that you have...and the chemo. But, I think that their might be some answers out there for you. Just don't give up looking. Things can get better.

Take care dear,

Mary

Sweetie, you have been through A LOT! I totally understand....within the past 6 years I've been through almost having my marriage fall apart at the seams, losing both my inlaws to colon cancer, two cross-country moves, layoffs, job changes, having my brother diagnosed with prostate cancer, my mom diagnosed with ovarian cancer, and my sister diagnosed with fibromyalgia, serious troubles in my beloved niece's lives, losing my cat, and finally finding out I had a complex ovarian cyst which eventually required a total hysterectomy last month! It just never seems to end! Please listen to me--I am walking proof that this much stress messes up your hormones, your immune system, and just about everything else. Is your doctor allowing you to take HRT? You might want to read up on bioidentical hormones like some of the other girls here said. There are a lot of good technical books on the subject, but for me, a quick easy read has been Suzanne Somers' new book "Ageless". I'm not sure I agree with everything, and she's only a layperson, but she interviewed several doctors who are experts on bioidenticals, and they have a lot to say. She also really covers the stress issue and what it does to our adrenals. I hope you feel better soon!!!!!!

Hi Loralai and everyone,

I dont know about the chemo aspects, but I am 10 weeks surgical menopause. I noticed symptoms of low libido and hot flashes almost immediately after surgery. Granted we have to consider the impact to surgery on the body, but I believe hormones plays a big role in libido. Luckilly, I did not have any medical concerns with trying biodentical HRT. I started with 6 weeks estradiol which sure helped the hot flashes, but it wasnt until I added the testosterone gel (a little dab on inner thighs morning and night) that I finally am starting to feel like my old self, with a libido, with interest in sex, it has given me hope I can get back to who I was before the surgery. Talk to your doctor (mine were easier, onc/gyn woman, gyn woman) but we are all adults and you should be able to speak to a male doctor about this as well.... and when the time is right, maybe you could add something to your regimen for libido. Good LUCK! and dont forget you do have the hardest job on earth, staying home with two little ones, that will exhaust the healthiest of young women and drive down libido!  Dianne

Oh, you poor thing! I know exactly how you feel and this is the perfect forum to post this on! I was 27yrs old going through chemo with a 2.5yr old and in a new relationship - we had been dating all of 4 months when I got diagnosed. I had no desire for sex - seriously. I was scared because here was this great guy who say's he loves me and I didn't want to dissapoint him! I had a total identity crisis - I was a workaholic who was now a stay at home mom, I was suddenly bald, I had mood swings that made me look like Linda Blair from The Exorcist and I had all these new scars on my body. I didn't even recognize myself some days. I think it comes down to being able to love and accept yourself in order to be able to give yourself fully to someone else. (so much easier said than done) I hated how I looked and told myself that everytime my boyfriend said I was beautiful, he was just feeling sorry for me. I know now, of course, that this wasn't the case. Are you in councelling? Just a suggestion as I know how much it has helped me through all of this. Don't beat yourself up over this - my god, your going through chemo woman! That alone would justify the lack of interest, let alone all your other circumstances. Let go of the guilt. Talk to your husband... I'm sure he is much more understanding about all this than you think.
Take care,
Becky

I never underwent chemo so I do not know if it is a side effect from that, but, I they did take my ovaries, and I can tell you that a lot of what you are feeling is a side effect of menopause.  Plus I am sure that chemo does play a role, as does 2 young children and everything else going on in your life.

I have been wondering alot lately about my sexual or should I say lack of sexual relationship with my BF.  It is more mental for me then physical.  It's not him, he is wonderful, loving and I just adore him....it's me...I know that there are many women with OvCa dx'd that are taking HRT of some sort.  I unfortunately had to stop because I started developing cysts that could be estrogen driven, history of early stage OvCa, we feel that HRT is not worth the risk for me.

I think that you need to give yourself a bit of time....you have a lot going on physically and emotionally, all of which could have an effect on your libido.