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MedHelp Member's Question

Darvon or methadone

by Frankinscense, Jan 28, 2001 12:00AM
Dr. S.A.:

I have read where some doctors are using darvon to maintain or treat opiate addicition. I have heard some individuals compare propoxyphene to methadone. I do not think that you can compare the two as a treatment modality. Am I correct in saying that propoxyphene is much more toxic than methadone, and is a poor choice for detoxing addicts simply because of the toxicity of the drug? Cross tolerance that occurs,and that a dose of darvon that could stop cravings and withdrawals of some addicts could actually kill the person due to the toxicity of the drug(propoxyphene)!? I am confused. Can you help me answer this question?

Thank You Dr. Steve

Frank N. Sence
Member Comments (62)

by tom to Frankincence, Jan 28, 2001 12:00AM
I'm not the doctor, but I suspect that your question may have been inspired to some extent from my posts on this site. I would never want my life or methods to become anyone's model for maintenance or recovery. I am currently "maintaining" my 30-year rx opiate addiction with Darvon 65 (plain propoxyphene, no aspirin or Tylenol). But it's hardly out of choice. There is some legislation, which I've read and have asked Doc Dan to interpret for us, which suggests that in March of this year a wide range of doctors will be able to become certified to treat opiate addiction with methadone. Currently, Methadone clinics are under the lead fist of the fascist, citizen-hating DEA (the DEA's unwritten charter considers all addicts to be criminals and sub-human filth not worth rehabilitating -- nice bunch of guys). However, in March of this year, another body, SAMHSA, or Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, part of the Department of Health and Human Services, will have the authority to authorize physicians to provide methadone and LAAM maintenance and/or detox to patients, as long as the physician is affiliated with an Opioid Treatment Program-based organization and gets SAMHSA certification.



My interpretation (I'm not a lawyer, either) is this will allow rehabilitation centers beyond the inner-city hard core ones we have now to offer methadone and LAAM treatment for opiate addiction. I don't know how "affiliated" a doctor has to be to get certified. I'm hoping it means at some private practice addiction specialists will be able to treat patients with methadone.



About Darvon, I've been hearing for years that heroin addicts sometimes use Darvon to get them through periods when heroin is unavailable. My recollection is that Darvon only partially addresses the needs of heroin addicts, even though it's chemically related in structure to methadone. I can tell you it's not a good pain killer if pain relief is what you're after. However, as I understand it, after being on methadone for a period of time, methadone, at that dosage, ceases to provide pain relief, only controlling the cravings, which, of course, is its mission to start with.



As far as toxicity goes, there is manufacturer literature that suggests that it is not a good long-term drug and is rarely associated with something called "liver jaundice." So, my answer to the toxicity question is that it is toxic to a degree, but I doubt if it's near as toxic as Tylenol, but, again, I'm not a doctor.



I can tell you that I take 4 doses of 4 darvon 65's every day and don't experience any ill effects that I know of. My goal currently is to get off the Darvon by either using the buprenorphine detox cure or going on methadone maintenance. Currently, there re only two clinics in my area, both in Santa Ana, So Cal, which both look and feel like an extension of the Orange County Jail system. Call me a snob, but I'm not reporting to those places today or any day, Jack. It's all well and good to say "humble yourself" and that "we've all got the same disease." So be it. But one visit to those places told me I was in the wrong place to get clean. For those contemplating it, remember that going on methadone maintenance makes you just as dependant on that clinic, or, put another way, just as much under their power as if you were on parole from prison and had a parole officer on your ass. Thanks, but I'll pass as things are now.

I'm hoping and praying that the new legislation will mean I can go to a bright, clean office in a safe neighborhood where I can get competent, individualized attention from a physician whom I can develop a doctor/patient relationship with. I don't think that's asking for a hell of  lot.



Anyway, that's my two cents on your post. Let's see what the pros have to say about all of this.

by J.B. to Brian and Vicky, Jan 29, 2001 12:00AM
I don't have much experience with Darvon.  When I was in drug rehab a few years ago, we were warned about the dangers of mixing Darvon and alcohol.  It can cause some people to have severe reactions such as halucinations, irrational behavior, seizures and violent outbursts.  So if you drink, Darvon is not for you!  Just a word to the wise for whatever it's worth.

by tom to J.B. and all my friends, Jan 30, 2001 12:00AM
first off, I don't drink alcohol, never have -- not that that is some kind of accomplishment.



To all: I left a post way down on "Why can't we stop?" that I want you to read. I know how "together" I can make myself sound on this forum, but my post should give you a more accurate picture of what a fool I am. I can't tell anyone but all of you and really expect to be understood. It's an example of just what addiction costs us, day after day. I'm not looking to be excused, but all of you have shared so much of yourselves with me and I wanted to do the same. Without all of you, "the real me" is truly alone in this world. No one else has an inkling of who I really am. Anyway, thanks for listening and thanks for being my friend.

by tom to all again, Jan 30, 2001 12:00AM
sorry, wrong thread -- it's under a thread starting with the word "depression ..." and it's initially to Tara and J.B.

by Patrice, Jan 30, 2001 12:00AM
Hi Tom



Tom, I am really dissapointed in you right now.  I am a street junkie, who got clean in NA many years ago, yes I relapsed, and part of the reason is I forgot where I came from!!!!!  Yes I am on methadone right now, with all the other junkies, some who dont even have teeth.  But who am I to say that I will not go there to get the help I despertly need, because some of the people dont fit into what I call an "upscale addict"  Tom, I think you need to go to some NA meetings and look around, we ARE all the SAME!!!!!  I wondered why a drug addict like you only went to AA, now I know.  Tom, this is not to flame you in any way!!!  I just wish you would open your eyes, the junkies that go to the methadone clinics are US!!!!  They have dreams and hopes too.  And guess what---  I have even seen a few people come into the clinic in brand new cars.  Sweetie we are all the same.  I was a street junkie, I worked the streets of my town to get my drugs.  Today I am an upperclass married woman who still embrases the street junkie.  Yea, I have 2 cars, a home a dog and a wonderful husband, but in one second, I can be who I was before, a lier, cheat, theif and a *****, no, wait a minute, I am still all that, the thing is I dont have to practice that stuff, by my willingness to recover and with my HP's help.  Tom, I dont want you to be upset or mad at me, just think about what I said.  Listen to yourself.  I dont know about AA, but in NA we are taught that there is no second class addict.  We are as one, and I would do anything for a suffering addict as long as I did no harm to that person or myself.  I am one of those who would pick up a woman who hadnt taken a bath in a week just to get her to a meeting, but only if she truely wanted to go.  Think about what I have said tonight and see if your thoughts have changed.  For your sake and your recovery, I hope they do, I care for you as one addict to another, and dont want you to spoil the good that can come to you because of your prejudice (sp) for a certain type of addict.  If you feel you need MMT go for it NOW, it may save your life!!!!!   And dont hold your breath on the doctors handing out methadone, you may wait a long time



Love your sis in recovery



Patrice

by Frankinscense, Jan 30, 2001 12:00AM
Well put Patrice! I am happy for you also!

Dan..

by tom to Dan, Jan 30, 2001 12:00AM
I notice you're ignoring my questions to you about the legislation featured on the Lindsmith site. Any particular reason for that? The least you could do is respond. But, on the other hand, don't put yourself out.

by tom to Patrice, Jan 30, 2001 12:00AM
there is more to it than what you're addressing. My job currrently doesn't allow me the time to make the horrible daily commute plus night after night of required meetings every week. What got me in dutch at work was being out of the office at a critical moment. Taking the option you urge on me would multiply that problem ten-fold. Then, fired from my job, I could drop by your house once a week to get one of those showers you give to the homeless. It's just this simple, the existing meth clinics are too far away and require too many mornings and evenings when I simply MUST be at work. The schedule is impossible. I must work to find a more a closer, more accessible source. In addition, I stand by what I said about the NA meetings I have gone to (apprx 40 in the last ten years). If I wanted to score some heroin I would simply go to one of those meetings and hang out by the door. Sure ...lots of sobriety there.

But thanks for the post all the same, Patrice.

by Patrice, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM
Hi Tom



I choose to only one comment that you made here tonight.  Dont EVER INSULT AN NA MEETING TO ME OR ANY OTHER MEMBER!!!!!Hate to dissapoint you, but I know many people that live in Southern Ca. Are in NA and have 25years+ in the fellowship.  I hope one day you find what you are looking for.  I hope you find a doctor that will dose you methadone, but wait a long time my friend.  Sorry your additude bumms me out, and I dont need negitivity in my life right now.  Maybe youll be lucky and no one else from NA will see your post



Have a good life



Regards



Patrice

by Patrice, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM
Dear tom,



In NA, we dont call it sobriety, we call it being in recovery.  Sobriety is for AA who are sober.  So please dont memtion sobriety and NA in the same sentence.  It is like respecting my home.  When I go to your home for example a friends birthday, I respect AA's home, I dont talk about drugs or say I am clean.  So I would expect the same respect from you.



Have a good night



Patrice

by Frankinscense, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM
I have two request. One to get a copy of the regs for another counselor,and one by you to give my interpretation. Well, fact is I have been so busy with my work. I rarely have time to be on the computer for more than ten minutes a day. I will try this weekend. Not ignoring you Tom.

Dan...

by Joe to the 'new' tom, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM
What is with you lately tom?  I used to really respect you and regard your advice.  You seemed genuinely concerned about people and willing to help.   Nowadays, it seems that more often than not you are discouraging or even embarassing people and posting negative threads about some person or entity.  



Look, we all have problems--which is why we are here--but dwelling on the negative doesn't always lead to solutions.  You used to be the voice of reason and hope.  Frankly, I like the 'old' tom better and wouldn't mind seeing more of him.



Joe

by Shiny, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM
You forget Joe, Tom is real and genuine.  That about says it all.

by Gina, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM
I have to say that Tom is entitled to his "down" time too. We have been lucky that he has shared some great insight with us and always expect him to be the voice of reason and hope. As Anon stated he is human and if he's feeling down or negative he should be able to share that with us. Maybe it's time we are there for him as he has been for us. We love you Tom and if there is anything we can do to help you, please ask!

by andrea_s, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM
Excuse me, I thought we all came here to be ourselves because it's not something we can do otherwise? Then you get mad at Tom because he voiced his opinion??? Hello? I read some posts back where Angel was "flaming" you and you sure as hell didn't like that. But you get upset because Tom spoke his opinion?  So you "flame" him? I personally have learned alot from Tom. He gives good advice. But he has his opinion and is entitled to it. If he doesn't care for N/A then that's his right. He doesn't need your permission or your lectures, I'm sure. We all come here to listen and to be heard. I don't agree with everything you've said either. But I just move on to the next post. Mellow out Patrice. You said you don't need negativity in your life? Well, this board if for the UP'S and DOWN'S of an addicts life. Now you're saying we can't talk about the downs because you don't want to hear them? You say you don't want him talking about N/A because they have helped you? Well, Tom has helped me and I don't like to hear you talking about him. Tom has the same rights on this board as you do. Please respect them.

by andrea_s, Jan 31, 2001 12:00AM