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Mom to a 23 year old heroin addict needs advice
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Mom to a 23 year old heroin addict needs advice

I'm so glad I found this forum, I've been lurking for a couple weeks now and have learned a lot.  When my daughter was a senior in college, I caught her snorting pain pills.  We had a heart to heart and she said she was a casual user and could just plain stop.  Over the next few days I did notice she was nauseous, etc. but being niave I believed her when she said she was just sick.  How I wish I could redo that time period.  I should have known anyone who snorts anything is not a casual user and we should have gotten professional help.  She appeared to be fine for a couple more months, getting a great job and passing a licensing exam that took 7 hours to do, to show you how involved it was.  One day she came home and said her boyfriend moved to Colorado and she's moving too.  Within a week she had quit her job and was gone.  She drove cross country from the east coast in 2 days, only stopping for 5 hours sleep once.  To make a long story shorter, we have noticed weird things that she said that didn't make sense and couldn't figure out why.  Then, she started getting a new phone number every few days, saying she broke her phone, lost her phone, etc., etc.  Had 2 accidents in her car, totaling the first one.  We found out later, that the insurance money from the first car we had bought for her as a graduation present did not go toward the new car.  Only a small portion was used as a down payment and she financed the rest.  She disappeared and we could not get in touch with her for a couple days, so we hunted down her boyfriend whom she was supposedly living with.  He informed us she was doing heroin and not staying there right now because he and their roommates didn't want her in the apartment doing it.  Through all this she has held her job she got when she moved out there.  I don't know how she's managed to do it, but she's still working.  She won't give us her address and will only tell lies about what she's doing.

According to her, she's living in a house with her NA sponsor who takes her paychecks and only gives her enough for necessities and decreasing amounts to purchase heroin and she's supposedly weaning herself off.  She claims to be doing half of what she was previously.  My common sense tells me no NA sponsor will help her buy drugs, even to wean herself off but my heart wants to believe her.  This is how its been, constant lies and deceit.   She's a world class liar and I don't know where to turn.  I can't check on her in person often because she lives across the country from us.  My husband and I flew out there a month ago and sensed something wasn't right but couldn't figure it out.  If we fly out there again there's no guarantee she will be honest with me or even meet with us!  She said she would love another visit but...  We have constantly offered her rehab, therapy and a few days ago, I purchased all the supplements involved in doing the amino acid protocol for w/d and mailed them to her.  Normally she will only "speak" to me by text but this time I actually got to talk to her and I asked her if she wanted me to do that and she said yes.  She even asked me if taurine was part of the recipe because she had heard it really helps.  I took that as a positive sign, at least she's either talking or researching the possibilities but now I'm starting to believe again it was just a lie to put me off longer.

Through all this, we have been paying the rent on her apartment with her boyfriend, thinking if/when she cleans up she will at least have somewhere to go.  We have helped her pay for a few crisis situations that she has created for herself, like expired tags, etc.  She has been leading us along and putting us off, so we were trying to help her.  Now we've realized we are just freeing up her paycheck for her to go buy more drugs and I've texted her we are done providing money for her to buy drugs.  I also said we love her too much to be responsible for providing the drugs that are killing her.

I am at my wits end and can't stop crying.  Her dad and I want to help her so much but don't know if there's anything we can even do at this point.  Please help us think this out and provide us with some sort of direction we need to go in, if there's anything we can do at all.  Also sad is that we have 2 other grown children who are very well adjusted and are home for Thanksgiving and this is ruining our time with them too.  Thank you so much for listening, so much for making the story shorter :-(
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Avatar_m_tn

I'm really sorry to hear your problem.

There are lost of people on this website who can provide useful advise.

Maybe you should try and find a local support group as it can help to talk to people who are/ have been the same situation.

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1235186_tn?1339127464
i totally understand your fear,sadness,hurts,disappointments.
we want to "fix" the situation, yes we want to go back and try to prevent the spiral that occurs.
we try to reason with them, help them,support them,plead with them. we cant understand why it happened,
why we couldnt see it, or prevent it.
the truth is we didnt cause it, we cant fix it and we cant stop it.
they are the one who has to admit there is a problem and then take the steps to work on their recovery.
it is good that you have realized that providing her with money is not helping her. we easily become "enablers" we think we are "helping" them but we are just preventing them from dealing with the consquences of their use. if they use all their money for drugs then they cant pay their rent.
then they will be homeless. this would be a consquence. if they get a fine and we pay it. then all is well in that department for a time. until the next ticket. if we dont pay the fine, then they will lose their license or get arrested. this would be a consquence. we cant continue to bail them out of all their mistakes.
they do become such wonderful liars and deceives. yes they do tell us what we want to hear, just to get us off their back again for a time.
it is so hard not to live in their addiction, and try to fix, control and cure it.
we have to hope and pray that they will come to their senses sooner than later and realize that they need help and then ask for it.
i would suggest you go to alanon.i have been attending a couple meetings a week and i feel so much better. there is so much support there. we get so emotionally,mentally,spirtually and physically worn out and need to understand how to learn to continue to live through this.

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

please look on the website and check out some meetings. they recommend 6 meetings before you decide if you like it or not. i look forward to my meetings.
i will pray for you and your family
know that you are not alone
hugs
debbie
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Avatar_f_tn
Thank you so much for the advice.  I've never felt so alone and helpless in my life.  I will look up the meetings you suggested.  Its just hard to believe that there's nothing I can do but I understand what you are saying and just need to try and get over the feeling of being responsible for the decisions she makes.  Easier said than done but I will try.
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1235186_tn?1339127464
easier said than done is an understatement. believe me i was probably the worst offender and enabler. i lived with and in my husbands addiction for almost 14 years. i didnt look for or find a website, i didnt know about alanon. he has now been in recovery for 22 months.
my two oldest children have used. i also enabled them and tried to fix them. when it is your children you think you can or are responsible for fixing them. it is very heartbreaking to watch them destroy themselves.
when we get so consumed by their addictions we cant think of anything but that. i could probably have a very high paying job in the CIA, i was the best investigator, finding the drugs, searching phone calls, looking in the clothes, through their rooms,cars,and even when i presented the "evidence" i was met with "thats not mine" end of story. so all my attempts at catching them, and hoping for a confession went in vain.
the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. i did become insane i continued to cry,beg,plead,threaten,argue,yell and the results were the same, me upset at my wits end and them continuing in their addiction.
tell your daughter you will support her recovery, but not her addiction.
dont give her any money. talk to her ask her how she is doing, tell her your desires that you hope and pray she will get clean. that you love her and miss her.
no an na sponsor would not hold her money and give it to her to wean off heroin. they lie so much they believe their own lies. if she is still with a boyfriend she was using with. she is still using. it is nearly impossible for one to stay clean while the other is using.
please suggest that she go to counseling. the addiction is just a symptom of something deeper that is going on in her, mind,heart,emotions and spirit.
it is very hard to let them continue in their path and not beable to stop them. i have to each day "let go and let GOD".
my son is 26 in 2 weeks, he is now in recovery for 2 1/2 years.
my daughter i believe is doing better. she has been working now for 3 months , but still has a bf who has also used. i have told her to leave him he will only drag her down, but she meets my suggestions with  so much resistance and then we argue and she wont talk to me. so i find it best to not even mention him. then she seems more open. i hope and pray she isnt using, she does seem much better. she wont go to meetings says she isnt using anymore so she doesnt need them. she does. she does counsel with our pastor and comes to church sometimes. i have to continue to trust,hope,pray and believe that she will not continue to make the very same mistakes that her dad did.
addiction is truly a family disease, it makes the family sick. emotionally, mentally,spiritually and physically.
you are in my thoughts and prayers
hugs
debbie
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Avatar_f_tn
Debbie~

I wish nobody else had ever gone through this, but it does help to know you and others have been there too.  I will pray for your family too.  You have been through so much I couldn't even imagine the heartache of having multiple members of your family fighting this.

I too have entered training to work for the CIA.  I've cracked her credit card statements and searched every establishment she's made purchases at in the last 2 months, googled the businesses, printed maps and looked at the satellite views.  They are all within a 3-4 block radius of each other.  I have a feeling if I wanted to track her down I could probably assume she is staying somewhere in the middle of that area.  She does have a car so I would be able to spot it if she's there if I go out there and try to meet with her.  What is that all going to get me?  It makes me feel a little more in control, but the information is close to useless.  Especially now, she is $5 from her credit limit and after that she won't even have money to eat for another week and a half.  Its killing me to know that.

Her boyfriend is clean and has always been.  He asked her to leave the apartment because he didn't want drugs there and that's when things get fuzzy.  She's hanging out with obviously other drug addicts I don't know where.  Most of her things (mostly things not able to be sold for drug money) are still at the apartment with her boyfriend and the past couple weeks she's been going over there and spending lunch time with him.  Not every day, sometimes she doesn't show and sometimes she cancels ahead of time but about 3 times per week she's been going there.  If she doesn't pay her rent this month i'm afraid he will probably tell her to move her stuff.  He can't come up with double rent, not to mention it isn't fair.  We have paid the past 2 months so if she got herself under control she would have somewhere to get away from the people she's staying with.  Should we pay the rent there still?  I know I said we weren't going to pay for anything else, but that is a clean place with clean people and she might be pressured into getting better if she gets kicked out of the drug house and goes back there out of necessity.  I just feel like if she had nowhere better to go she would just get deeper.  What do you think?

There is a therapist we have approached to try and help her.  She offered to meet our daughter for coffee and talk, free of charge, and try to figure out some way to help.  We gave her the number and our daughter texted her once and never followed up.  I'm sure that was designed to buy a little more time from us.  I told her the therapist can't and won't reveal anything she says to her but will keep us informed if they meet or not.

Thanks so much for everything.  It really helps to talk.  The family is so tired and stressed we are all constantly on edge, so its hard to talk things through.

Hugs to you too,
Jane

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Hi Jane
I am so sorry for your heartache...I know it well.  Most important right now, is take care of you.  This has a way of wearing a parent down and quickly. I first posted here almost a year ago.  I came here in total desperation.  My 22 year old son, also a heroin addict, I Very ignorant.  This forum was my life line, the members here, eased my tattered soul....they still do ( I read often)  This Is a tough heartbreaking road.  I have become very close to one member, who still walks my road with me, without him, I'm not sure I would beable to be where I am today.
Last week, was the week I resorted to tough love, the hardest thing I believe I have had to do in my life time.  We as parents, I guess we think we can fix our kids, that's what I thought.  I was told from the very first post, it was something only He could do.  They were right.  My son and I have had a very long hard year.  "I"...have tried everything, including suboxone, to fix his life. He did make progress several times, but each time he fell, he fell a bit harder.  It's now a year later, he is where he started...living for heroin.  Enable him, absolutely I did.  I couldn't bear the thought of him not having a bed to sleep in or food to eat, after all...he is my son.  The last 2 months I have once again watched my son...replaced by a stranger.  The last few weeks, I rarely saw him...spent most of his days/nights in his room.  It came down to me watching the clock...knowing I should check on him but terrified, because of what I might find.  That's when it became clear to me there was only 1 choice left.  I once again offered rehab other wise he would have to  leave the house.  He told me he wasn't ready and wouldn't go to rehab.  It was with a very heavy heart, that he was walked out the door.  Is it the right choice...I don't know.  What I do know is...it was a process for me, that I needed to go through with him.  I needed to know in my heart, that I had done everything in My power, to help my son.  
I was also told, in one of those first post, he needs to hit rock bottom....possibly now he can.  
My love for him...oh so deep, and I  hope one day, he will understand, why I did what I had to do.
Addiction goes alot deeper than we as non addicts will ever understand. I've had Great teachers.
My son and I talked hours and hours and hours on end.  Everytime I asked him what I could for him...I got the same answer.  Nothing mom, it can only come from me.
My Prayers Go To You and Your Family
Stick Close...Your not alone
Debbie #2
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Avatar_f_tn
Thank you so much for sharing your story with me.  My heart breaks for you.  I had been wishing my daughter lived close to me so I could check on her or she could live with us but now I see it wouldn't have helped, looks like it just makes things harder to watch them self destruct in person.  It sounds like you have a good relationship with your son, hopefully this will lead him back to you when he's ready.

I'm hoping to speak to her today, we emailed yesterday (she sold her brand new laptop and pawned her iphone but still works so I can at least get her there although her email is monitored so we can't say much).  She bought the laptop for herself and now its gone but the charge is still on her credit card that's maxed out.  I'm going to pass on the advice I got here yesterday and the day before.  Saying we love her and are praying she can find the strength to make herself better.  

I just keep thinking about the fact that we have 2 other well adjusted grown children.  How did this happen, why her/us?  I guess at this point it doesn't matter but I never imagined in my wildest nightmare that we would wind up in this situation.  

Prayers and hugs,
Jane
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Avatar_n_tn
How did this happen...can't tell you How many times I have beat myself silly with the same question.  I Was a stay at home mom...how could I Not see it ???  Guilt...OH MY.  
It wasn't us Jane...we did nothing wrong...unfortunatly it took a year for me to figure that out.  
My ONLY comfort, came from here.  They ALL know what they're talking about.  I honestly came here with no hope, lost beyond return, no one in my circle, could help me, they knew nothing more than I.  While I now look back over the year, I wish I had taken the advice from here much sooner.  But realized...as I said before...it was the process I had to go through, to make some sort of sense of it all in my own mind. Not one person here, lead me astray.  
Everything you say, I completely understand.  My son too sold or "traded" everything he owned.  Everything we gave him.  He has Nothing left...where will the money now come from.  We both know the answer.  Maybe soon...he will be back in jail ?? I can honestly right now, say...I hope so.  
There are still alot of what if's...What if I had listened a year ago, would we be at a different place with this addiction??   This is a VERY SAD disease, and unfortunaly all we can do is be there for them, when they are ready.  
I have No Doubt in my mind, when and if my son is ever ready....I will be the one he comes to.  We are Very close...he has been my rock for many years.  I feel I have let him down...why can't I be his ??  I know you know the feeling.  Yesterday was his birthday...I did send him a text to tell him only HappyBirthday , but due to having a new phone number...he didn't know it was me.  He asked who I was...I didn't respond.
Our Bonds with our kids...will never be broken.  
Unspoken love...is always between us...the heart to heart will never leave.  I know your daughter thinks of you, I'm sure more often than you believe she does.  My son told me, still to this day...it is I that crosses his mind while he puts the needle in his arm.
Your not alone Jane, just know that.  Hold on tight to any of us that you connect with.  It Will give you strength, until your own returns, and it will.  
My Very Best to You
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once they start to use their brain chemistry changes. they are no longer in control, the drugs are.
i always took their addictions so personal.why are doing this to me? what did i do wrong?  i internalized it and was consumed by it.i had become so sick with worry and anxiety that i was in bed many times for days with debilitating migranes (migraines), i had to be hospitalized for severe panic attacks that presented as strokes or heart attacks. i had to come to the realization they werent doing it to hurt me,it wasnt them, the drugs were in control.i had younger children to take care of and i was hurting them letting the disease of addiction consume me.

once my son was clean. he told me mom, i know only because of your prayers,love and for not giving up on me,and GOD i am not dead or in jail for a long time, or in the gutter and homeless.  he was in jail for a short time and in rehab.
they have to find their own way and yes many times have to hit rock bottom.
my son who is 25 has had 4 or 5 friends he grew up with die of overdose and a few that are in jail long term and many who still use.
my daughter who is 20 also has had 4 or 5 friends die within the last 2 years.
addiction doesnt discriminate. it spans every race,creed,socio-economic status.  it is rampant.
we have to admit we are powerless over it.  
once i did i began to heal. i continued to hope,believe,pray,trust that they would come to their breaking point.when they did i would be there to support their recovery.
when i spoke to them, i stopped the pleading,begging and asking why. as i did this they were more open to talk to me.
i also wished i would have listened to others years ago about not enabling and about going to alanon.
i attend meetings a couple of days a week, i am in recovery. it is a process, but i am working my recovery.
hugs and prayers
debbie
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Avatar_n_tn
While I don't believe I met you while I was "Lost"...I would like to Thank You, for your tiredless efforts.  You as well as others here, are making a difference in so many lives.  
Your above post, I very much relate to.  I too very sick over the stress of my son...very low blood pressure.  I found this site...just in time.  Many reached out to me, and a few didn't let go...I couldn't be more thankful.  It took the year  for me and countless hours of patience from very unselfish people...  to Make me understand, what I was told in the beginning.
Your right...We have to admit, we are powerless, and until we can, we our selves can not heal, we are our own  worst enemies
What put my son off the deep end 2 weeks ago...he lost one of his best friends to OD...
Apparently it is something we're not meant to understand
I too speak to my son differently.  Also as you listed above.  2 very strong points I now make to him.  #1 always here when he is ready for recovery #2 unconditional & eternal love
Once again...Thank You Debbie
Debbie #2
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Avatar_f_tn
Thank you both so much for the support.  When I get up in the morning, I go here before everyone else gets up and read for a while, cry, and then go on with my day. You are helping me and our famly so much by being there for me, so I can get off the computer afterwards and be there for them.

Today is going to be a tough day and Tuesday is her birthday.  She has a twin sister and this is the first year they haven't been here together.  She promised to call today and talk.   In an email from work yesterday mentioned that she misses everyone and wishes she could be here although she feels like we are all here saying bad things about her.  She told me not to answer because it was on work email but today I'm going to tell her she shouldn't think like that.  We aren't saying bad things about her, she has a life threatening medical condition and we are praying that she will gather the strength to reach out and get clean.  We love her and she is a part of this family, ALWAYS.  She isn't alone and needs to remember that.  When she is ready to help herself, if she wants me all she needs to do is tell me.  I will drop everything and get the first plane out there.  Her Dad, brother and sister would too, but for some reason she only talks to me since this all came to light.

That brings up what I keep thinking over and over again, she's living in a place where everyone around her uses -- if she OD's are they going to call an ambulance or are they going to protect themselves and run?  I know the answer to that and it terrifies me!  Will the authorities out there even know to notify us?  Should I say this to her?

Anyway, I hope everyone here manages to get through the day and smile at least once.  You deserve it.  I'm off to go make the stuffing and try to make it as normal a Thanksgiving as possible.

Jane
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Avatar_n_tn
I tear up when I read your posts...it's all still so raw for you, and I SO know and feel your pain.
I'm going to send you my email address.  I find myself coming here daily to check on you.  Over time, the posts fade out....
If nothing else, I guess it helps to know other moms that are in your shoes.  Kind of makes this road, alittle less bumpy.  I want you to feel free to write any time...OK.  Another mom and I keep in close touch, she is going thru it with 2....a life long friend...she has become
Try to find a reason to smile today
You and your family are in my prayers
I have to go Try to make a Happy Thanksgiving...hope your able to do the same.
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Avatar_m_tn
Its amazing how a single desease can have such a huge impact on a family and its frusterating watching a loved one go down the wrong path. It becomes harder to trust them yet everytime they talk about detoxing you want to believe them so bad only to be more disapointed and mad later. They are out on the street doing things you can only imagine, to get high and feel good without knowing that your at home worrying so much you can't get out of bed somedays.  The truth is that you need to use tough love and tell her that you can[t do this anymore. Tell her how you sit at home all night crying and blaming yourself for her mistakes. Let her know that she can only come back into your life when SHE is ready for help. I know as a parent that must seem like the worse thing you can do but no matter how many times you tell her she has a problem and she needs help, it will not get her to stop. Everytime she lies to you and you help her out, she is the one that feels in control. An addict will say whatever they have to say or do what ever they have to do to feed the addiction because they are not thinking about you and how you will feel later when you find out the truth. They only care about them and how they will feel without the drug.  If you sit her down and calmly talk to her about how much this is hurting and effecting your life. And since you can't control what others do. you are going to control what you do. Tell her that you love her so much but  please know that this is the hardest thing you have had to do, just like when you decide to detox, it will be the hardest thing she will ever do. The only thing that hurts  the most is that she won't be there to help you get through your worse time but always remember when you decide its time, I will be right by your side to help you get through yours, unconditionally!  

An addict will deny they have a problem, they feel in control of the drug. They need to realize on their own that they do have a problem. By cutting her out of your life will not help you and the way you feel but it will get her to think. Sure maybe at first she might get mad and seem ok with your decision but eventually she will have to realize that you must be really hurting inside for you to do that. It may take months for her to ask for help but once she comes to u and asks for help, then atleast you'll know shes serious.
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Avatar_f_tn
Thank you so much for the advice.  lucky, I know you are right about cutting her out of my life until she asks for help, I really do, I just don't feel like I'm ready for that.  Its all so new to me and so much to absorb.  

Like you both said, she tells me she wants help but then doesn't follow through.  Just last night she called to say happy thanksgiving (yeah right) and I asked her how she's doing.  She said "fine".  I wanted to scream but I didn't.  I just said back to her "no, everything's not fine".  I told her she needs help, professional help.  She at the very least needs to detox at a medical facility and follow up with a therapist and/or NA.  She "agreed" with me and asked me where she could go and would I email her information on those places.  I already had the list ready because in the very beginning I contacted the insurance company and asked.   I can't believe she means this until she actually does something.  A week ago she told me she wanted the amino acid protocol, I went right out, bought everything and mailed it to her priority.  It is still sitting at the post office.  

Come to find out, I heard something in the background and I asked if someone else was there.  She said yes.  How am I ever going to have an honest, open conversation with her while someone else who is at least as messed up as her sitting there?  I told her to call me this morning on her way to work if she doesn't have any other time alone.  I need to approach the subject of where she's living and how she's never going to get clean being where she is.  She needs to be somewhere where she's not watching other people do drugs if she's to get clean and stay clean.  That person has more influence over her than I do at this point and I don't need him/her sitting there undoing everything I just said after we hang up.

I reiterated to her she needs to make financial priorities and make sure her bills are paid.  I told her again we will not be paying her rent at her old apartment and she can't afford to pay 2 rents so she should go back there.  She also has a large car payment and car insurance to take care of.  She gets paid today and I feel like I needed to remind her not to blow everything this afternoon.  She probably won't listen but I had to try.

I asked her what she did today (yesterday now) and she said she had a "relaxing day".  I know what that means, she sat there and nodded off all day.  I wish I could get the images out of my head.

I'm doing a little better since I found you.  I had gone so long without sleeping normally that I totally crashed a couple days ago.  Now I am sleeping through the night and I definitely could fall asleep at the drop of a hat any time during the day whether I want to or not.  One extreme to another I guess.   Anyway, thanks for everything.  I don't know what I would do without you!  I will let you know what she says this morning if she does call.

Jane
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Avatar_n_tn
Hope your doing ok today...sent you an email
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Avatar_f_tn
I'm ok, just being with our other 2 grown kids for  few days.  I've been told I am stressing my husband and daughter out so I've asked to try and not discuss the issue during the holiday.  I think that's b.s.  My other daughter is basically killing herself, her father is tired of talking about her?  Things are settling down today and tomorrow I'm back on my own during the day to work on my own mental health since nobody here cares.

I am really busy right now which actually is helping me for now.  Haven't been on my email but will check a little later today :-)  Thanks Deb.  I will update you either today or tomorrow on my phone call with her.  Not good, not bad I guess...

Jane

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Avatar_m_tn
Hey Jane,

I've been thinking about you and I hope your ok?

It's crazy how everybody handles their stress differently, some ignore it and hope it goes away, some stay busy, some need to talk about it and some act like it doesn't bother them at all....

I know how hard it is to be going through the worst time of your life and feel alone but please remember that we are here for you and we want you and your daughter to geet better..... we will never judge and we will never give up!!

Have you seen a doctor about your depression? Its nothing to be ashamed of and maybe an anti depressant might really help.  I like to keep a journal of all my thoughts, I find it helpful to write them down at times when I feel like no one is listening....Also it might be a great tool to use for your daughters recovery later.... when she does decide to get clean you could give her your journal so she can read and really understand how much her desease affected you too.....

Just a thought.........

You and your family are in my prayers and I am here for you if you need someone to talk to..

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the addiction continues in my family. i knew my daughter was using on and off. i thought the last couple months she was doing better. she has been working 5 days a week for 3 months. wednesday morning she came home after staying out all night. she immediately ran to the toilet and was vomiting. she said i think i ate something last night that was bad. she looked terrible and slept all day. i told my husband i thought she had used. he asked her and she admitted she did roxys. i have been in tears since tuesday. this is a new drug for her. she had done coke and xanax before.she is 20. she has already been on probation, in iop,knows the hurt and devastration of  addiction from her dad and her brother. i am so distraught........

i know what you mean about others not wanting to discuss it. i cant turn my emotions on and off that easy. my husband says lets give it sometime. i couldnt even stay inside at my in laws on thanksgiving. i sat in my car crying, my husband came out and yelled at me, to "Let it go". what??
i am trying so hard to apply what i learned in alanon. i am trying to work my recovery.
my daughter is being so nasty,arguing,cursing,calling names,blaming, i dont know how long i can let her stay here under these circumstances.
i am praying and need a multitude of counselors and the LORD GOD to tell me exactly what i should do.
deb and jane i again am feeling exactly as you are. we are all in this together. we need a miracle.
hugs to you both,
debbie
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I have read all of this and my heart just aches for all of you, including your children who are using.  I know how they feel and i know right at this moment their first priority and love is their drug.  They all love you but they are sick right now.   I dont know how to say this without it sounding just heartless but the enabling has to stop.  We NEED to fall on our face and hit bottom.  It has to be our decision to stop and until that happens the insanity will continue.  You need to take care of yourselves now, please dont live in our addiction, we need our family members healthy when we start the recovery process.  I know this is easier said than done as i am a parent too and we cant just shut off our emotions, our concerns and fears.  I say and feel the Serenity Prayer now and it helps me.  I am sara, a recovering alcoholic/addict since April 2008~~~
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Thank you so much for your reply.  I need to clarify something though, when I said "nobody here cares" I didn't mean here on the forum, i meant here in my home.  I have been on antidepressants for a few months for other reasons so they are already on board.  Writing a journal is a great idea.  I will probably start today.  Today is her birthday, its as good a time as any to start.

Thank you for being there for me.
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Debbie~

I'm so sorry.  I can't even imagine going through this with more than one family member.  I wish I could say something to make you feel better.  Some of the advice I've been given here is starting to sink in though, I am not in control of what my daughter does, only she can do that.  I am in no position to tell you what to do, obviously, but the abusing you verbally has to stop one way or another.  We can't take unlimited stress and be ok.  

Please stay in touch, we can lean on each other, I'm finding out that really helps.  I've always been one to internalize my feelings, hold it in and suffer all by myself, this is a good lesson for me.

Jane

  
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Sara~

Thank you so much for your words of wisdom.  It helps to hear from someone who understands the other side of this problem too.  It's so hard when they grow up to let them make their own mistakes.  As parents its always been our job to guide our kids and keep them on the right path and now we are helpless and watching them in their downward spiral.  This whole thing is such a learning process for me.  I always thought people who become addicted came from abused/neglected/poor situations and were so hopeless they just didn't care.  Now I know, there are a lot more reasons than that to wind up on this self destructive path and it can happen in any family at any time.  

You are doing great work here, Sara.  Thank you so much for helping everyone here.  You are making the world a better place and using your experiences for something good.

Jane  

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Oh Debbie...I know how broken you are, and I know there is nothing I can say to make it better.  Please...Take Care of you...Prayers sent to you and your family.  I too here for you...maybe together, we can all see through.

Sara...You have unknowingly been one of my guides for the past year...I need to say a Long Over Due Thank You.  You are truly Strength, to all who come here :)
My son...back in jail, almost a year to the day.  This time...I WILL leave him right where he is.  I have had no contact with him, and won't until I KNOW I am strong enough to not let any of his words, break me again

Jane...Take Care of YOU
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Thank you so much for the kind words~~You made my day!

Now, how are all of you ladies doing?
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Sara,

Its been a rollercoaster ride for us.  One day there are hopeful signs, the next, they disappear.  The latest is that my daughter moved back in with her clean boyfriend 2 days ago and yesterday she told me she's starting a suboxone program this morning.  I told her I was concerned because of how addictive the sub is and she said that if she's only on it a month it won't be that hard to get off of.  That's what they told her at the center when she went for her evaluation and counseling.  They estimated one month of treatment/counseling for her, saying that she has already done a lot of work weaning herself down to where she is.  Last time she texted me yesterday she was in full-blown withdrawal while at work (in preparation for her first sub dose) because she can't afford to miss a day.

I want to be happy, but somehow, I'm afraid to, if that makes sense.  We have been lied to so many times something in me is waiting for it all to go "poof" and disappear.  I have contacted her boyfriend and double checked on the things she has told me and he's vouching for her, although he said he wasn't aware that today is the day, which is weird and set off my radar a bit.  He has offered to front her the money for treatment and we will pay him back, by check, in his name, through the mail.

Thanks so much for asking how we all are doing.  I'm just trying to stay busy and out of the house as much as I can at this point.  Hope everyone has a good, encouraging day.  

Jane

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Isn't it amazing how sick we all get from someone else's addiction?  I was in my own state of denial about that for years - just ask domino!  ;-)

I think we family members have to hit bottom just as our addicts do before we finally face the fact that we're sick too and take that first step to getting help.  With me, guilt wasn't really my issue.  It was anger that I internalized.  Sure, I knew my husband had to be the one to change his own behavior, but I never set boundaries or established consequences for breaking those boundaries.  At least, not until my physical and mental health were broken.  I didn't really know what boundaries and consequences meant or what "living in his addiction" meant.  Now I do.  Boy do I!  

I know I made the huge mistake of thinking, "He's the one with the problem, not me.  What do you mean I'M sick?!"  BIG mistake on my part, and also very common thoughts for family and friends of addicts.  Most of us think that our lives would be just perfect if only the addict would just stop using.  The truth is that they started using for a reason.  Relationship fractures or some other issue were already there before the active addiction started and if they aren't dealt with when the addict detoxes, relapse is pretty much inevitable.  That's one reason we as family members need to do our own recovery work.  It helps us first and the addict second.

Al-Anon has some great books and publications available if you're not ready to jump into meetings yet.  You never know what's going to resonate and help your situation until you read it or hear it.  We can't do this alone and stay healthy.
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Sub does have its place and some doctors are doing the 21 day(month) plan.  She does have to be in wd's before she takes her first dose.  This could be a good thing if she does it the right way.  At this point it is really the lesser of 2 evils.  Sub is very addictive but done properly it gets them over that hump.  Now it is just a waiting game to see how she responds.  Keep us posted on how this is going.

Jaybay summed everything up very well.  She was the most stubborn woman i had ever met.  It didnt matter what i said or anyone else for that matter, she was going to do it her way and there was no other way.  She didnt understand at that point that doing it HER way wasn't working.  I am so proud of her now, she makes my little heart happy~~~sara
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Sara...Today, I am Strong, with no intentions of folding this time around.    Think I could write a book (if I could write:) about this forum, and it's people I Know...MY life completely different today, than a year ago, because of so many here giving so unselfishly of themselves and their time.  The day I came here, I was walking a VERY thin line, hanging by a thread...I am now in year 15 of dealing with addiction in my children. My oldest son now 29..heroin addiction, clean now nearly 10 years..he was able to fight it on his own and is winning for the time being.  My daughter, the least severe..24, found the loves of her life she had 2 little boys ...she now 3 years clean.  My youngest son that I write about, by far the most severe...he was the one that took me to the edge.  
The day I gave up on life, when I could take no more, was the day I found this forum.  
One member...why he picked me to help, I still don't understand.  But couldn't be where I am today without him.  He has been by my side for an entire year, I still think about this and wonder who does something like that in this day. There are no words for him, other than my gift.  He still struggles, breaks my heart, but have the hope that I can one day give back to him a piece of what he has given me.  
Many times when I wanted to give up or in again... usually late at night...I would come here to read, I would leave with renewed strength.  
It has become very clear where the wisdom and respect originates.  
So many of the wise, have gone through Sara first ;)
Thank You...to You...Sara!!!

jaybay...It's funny how you mentioned we are addicted to our addicts.  I only just a few months back realized that.  Really we are no different, truer words, could not be spoken.  Also a sickness for us, having to hit bottom, in order to start the recovery process.  Who would have thought...I certainly didn't when I started this journey, but have come to know...I was as sick, as my kids and now know, it is my strength that needs to continue to build for the day my youngest is ready for recovery and my then support:)

Sara...jaybay..and so many others...don't ever quit doing what you do so well...Your...saving lives

Jane..stay with us...we will be your wings.  Your Not alone <3




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just for today, i am letting go and letting GOD.and living and letting them live. my daughter has been talking with us. she has agreed to go to meetings. hopefully she will start this week. she has been working and that is going ok. she has only missed 2 days of work in 3 months.
she is going for counseling with our pastor and is supposed to come to church tomorrow. i have asked her to come home every night.
she seems to be agreeing to that also. when she stayed out is when she would use.
i know at this point she just uses sometimes but we know how that goes. i hope and pray she is ready to stop. she has a very co-depend relationship with her bf. he is very manipulating and controlling.
i believe she has self-esteem issues and insecurity issues, because of the fighting she heard between my husband & i. for years our house wasnt a haven it was a war zone.
i constantly tell my children i am sorry that i didnt do something different during my husband addiction. i wish i knew then what i know now.
i know for me when i come here it does also help me by encouraging others. i have let go of so much bitterness and unforgiveness that i had towards my husband. it was eating at me like a cancer. i have  had many more happy and peaceful days in the last 6 months. i am working on me. i walk and run by the ocean each day, i read my bible and pray, i attend alanon meetings a few days a week. i am healing. i am getting stronger and working through the steps. today i am hopeful.  
hugs to you ladys. thank you so much for sitting beside me on this ride.
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Nice to see your in a better spot today...Hope...
it's Always there :)
Your daughter is talking, Jane's daughter is talking, all steps in the right direction..
I very much agree with you how freeing letting go is.  
You can't beat yourself up over something in the past.  The what if's...how they can eat at you, and the guilt that comes with it.  
I have taken on the what ever attitude over the last year....while I may not be alot of help to anyone, I feel better :)
I no longer "plan" it never worked anyways....I now just let events unfold as they will, and deal with it as it comes... much more peaceful, I live by the day.
When we take a look back over our lives...we can always find a reason... something if we were to do again, we would do it differently... But...we did the best we could at the time.  I often wonder, if I was given the chance to do the "do over"...knowing what I know now.  Would it really be any different ?  Maybe we could prevent some of the hurtful situations, we now face...but we may also open up a whole new can of worms, somewhere else in our lives.  
I have learned to look less at the negative and focus more on the positive. While my life is very painful at the moment, it is only as painful as I allow it to be.  When I think of my son and his situation...it pulls me in a deep dark hole.  
Yesterday I spent time with my 3 little grandkids.  They are SO excited about Santa...couldn't help but smile.  That sweet innocence, turned that light back on in me.  So today, I focus on Santa :)
My kids all put themselves in a bad spot at one time of their lives, but we never as a whole, went without.  We always had a roof over our heads, food to eat and many many happy good times, most importantly...we're all STILL here.
I guess what it's all about is having Hope and Faith that life has progressed as it was meant to and hopefully we all reach that rainbow in the end :)

We ARE on a ride.
Together is Strength, here I find an abundance, I am Thankful...and Know, I am Not Alone :)
Thank You to Everyone!!
Hugs to you all and Peace to you Today Deb #1 and Jane
We will survive...GOOD things do come in time...
My Best To You ALL
Deb #2
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So much support, so many good wishes and advice :-)  You all made me smile.  I truly am NOT alone.  Your stories are different but all have similarities and I guess the main thing I need to do is to mentally give up control.  I never had it really, but was striving to have it.  I am facing the fact that nothing I could do would give me control.  She's a grown woman with problems she needs to fix.  I told her a few days ago that we would support her in her recovery but not in her addiction and that seemed to startle her a bit.  You know how sometimes you wonder if somebody's even listening when you talk but every now and then you know something hits the mark and is noticed?  That was it.  Thanks to you, friends.  Its the truth, I didn't just say it I meant it, but the way you told me to phrase it was perfect.

Now for the update.  She did start the suboxone treatment on Saturday.  That evening she called me and sounded like a totally different person.  My daughter is coming back.  She is full of regrets and very hopeful about the future.  She said she feels better but still not very well, but had only had one dose of sub so it was to be expected since it builds up in the body.  The person she was staying with threatened to "ruin" her if she left, claiming to have photos and recordings of her and he took her phone when she left so he has all her contact information.  She really doesn't need the extra pressure but I guess that's just one of the things she's going to have to endure if he does follow through with his threat.  So far we haven't gotten anything and I'm sure her parents would be the first ones to receive something so maybe he was bluffing.

Please don't worry, I know this thing is FAR from over, and it may never be over but we are at least moving in a positive direction for now.  One day at a time.

Jane
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So very Happy for you and your daughter!!!!
I am Incredibly impressed with you....Jane :)
What a Job Your doing...You "Get It " I believe the Biggest Challenge for us as parents.  Your attitude toward your situation if you know it now or not...you, have given yourself...much power.  Still a long road ahead, maybe some ups and downs, some smiles and tears...but, your aware of where your focus has to be...Proud of You.
Your Right...Your NOT alone :)

Stay Close..Stay Strong
Smile Today...You Deserve It

Debbie ... checking on you...are you feeling better ??  In my thoughts and Prayers

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This has to be by far the most supportive caring thread i have ever read.  Your children are so blessed to have you as their moms.  You are all in the trenches with addiction but you also have a plan for yourselves, to be healthy.  Each one of your children that are struggling right now will have a greater chance in their recovery due to you all taking care of yourselves.  Addiction can tear a family apart but with everyone doing their part the family comes back stronger than ever before.  

Go with a spirit that fears nothing~~~sara
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Sara,

It definitely is a great place to be.  I'm blessed to be here with such great people.  Without this site...nevermind, I can't even imagine!

Jane
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Jane...agree with you !!!  
You've come along way in a week...your stronger than you knew...huh ?:)
We all need that reminder...we CAN do it !!!
Stay Strong
Stay Close
Find a reason to Smile today !!!
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Our recovery is a process just as it is for the addicts in our lives.  You're on your way!  Living in the moment and taking life one day at a time sounds easy, but it isn't - at least not until your auto-pilot kicks on.  

One of the ladies in my recovery group told us that her co-workers noticed how laid-back she's become in the past several months.  All the little crises that happen in the course of a workday just roll off her back now.  In her recovery process she's learned not to sweat the small stuff, and most things in life are either small stuff or entirely beyond our control.  Makes life a whole lot easier!
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My daughter is now 8 days clean (not including the suboxone of course).  Her personality is coming back and she is very full of regrets and hope for the future.  She had to wait 2 days from the last time she used to start the subs and gradually since then she's felt a little better each day.  Yesterday she told me she hacking up all kinds of nasty stuff and said she can't believe what she's done to her lungs and the rest of her body.  She never used needles that I know about, she smoked the heroin instead.   I have read about the clinic she's going to and it is much better than I had thought.  Its actually an outpatient intensive rehab. with counseling.  Not just "how are you feeling?" but real counseling.  

About the Amino Acid Protocol on this site, I sent her most of the things on that list a couple weeks ago and she didn't take them.  Yesterday she asked the dr. at the rehab if there are any supplements she can take to help and he gave her a list almost identical to the one here!  Thanks to all you here she already has what she needs to get started.

I will keep you updated as things progress.  I'm back to normal as much as possible :-)  As always, thank you everyone for the support.  I know it isn't over but with your help hopefully I will be able to put things in perspective from now on.

Jane
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You've brought me along way....from tears a few weeks ago to Smiles for you today :)!!!
So Nice to see progress made, not only in your daughter, but you as well....
Keep Strong :)
Will write later
Hugs & Prayers...To You Both !!!
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That sounds like an excellent place with the IOP.  They know what they are doing.  She will yack up nasty junk for awhile and she may notice a smell on her too.  It is hard to explain but she may mention it, it is almost metallic.....

Just make sure you take care of yourself now.
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hi jane,
i am so happy for you and so glad your daughter is taking some very necessary steps to begin her recovery. that is great. how wonderful that she is opening up to you and you are beginning to "see her" again.
i hope you can rest a bit now. please take care of you.
the topic at the alanon meeting i attended today was just that "taking care of you". i need to be reminded of that. i have been trying to take care of myself and continue on my journey to recovery. i am just for today, letting go and letting GOD.
hugs and continued prayers to you
debbie
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Debbie,

How are you?  Haven't heard from you in a couple days...

Its weird my daughter grew up insecure and with self-esteem issues too.  Our home was also a war zone.  Our marriage has been in bad shape for years but I had been a stay at home mom for years and was too insecure to leave, so I stayed in the marriage "for the sake of the children" because I didn't have the confidence that I could make enough money to support them.  Boy did that backfire!  They got college educations but now look... The kids are now all somewhere else and I'm still in the marriage.  Things have settled down for me but I have this daughter with drug problems and her sister is also in therapy but not on drugs.

I guess what I've learned is that hindsight really is 20/20 and we are not the cause of our children's problems.  We can't be perfect parents, nobody is, we do the best we can and then try to adjust as time goes on and we learn different ways to deal with things as they evolve.  

Hang in there Debbie and keep us updated, we care.  Glad you are going to meetings and striving to have as normal a life as you can.  

Hugs,
Jane
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My daughter is gone again.  We called the police and they said she has already been arrested once and the charges are substantial.  They wouldn't say any more about it.  She has totally succeeded in ruining her life.

She had the nerve to say over text to me that she can't believe we don't trust her!  I asked her that we have been lied to so many times, does she blame us?  She answered "no not at all".

I had a feeling it was too good to be true.  Now I see why she went into rehab so easily, it was probably court ordered.

Jane
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It's always such a horribly sad thing to hear about another person destroying her life over drugs.  Now is the time for you to stay strong and let HER deal with the law and all the other consequences of her addiction.  Detaching is terribly difficult, but it's necessary for her and it's necessary for you.

I'm glad though, to hear that you aren't blaming yourself for her addiction.  Keep reminding yourself of that and believe it!  Whatever troubles your daughter has, it was HER choice to use drugs to deal with her life.  Try not to engage her text arguments about trusting her.  This is just typical addict emotional blackmail to get you off her back.    You and I both know that trust has to be earned and right now your daughter is completely untrustworthy.  It's not wrong to tell her that either.  It's the truth!
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Thanks so much for the support.  I'm just so upset right now I can't eat or sleep.  I will, I know, but I'm in shock.  By the way, I'm not even sure its HER writing those texts!  It could be her drug dealer for all I know.  He wrote me at least once before claiming to be her from her phone.  I told her unless I hear her voice I will have doubt of who I'm talking to.  Not good.

From time to time I have thoughts of what could I have done, or why did she turn out like this, but although nobody has a perfect childhood, I just don't see anything bad enough to cause something like this.  

She just told me (via text of course) that she hasn't missed a day of treatment and is going tomorrow too.  I'm texting her back that I want to see a receipt or she's not getting the $ from me to pay for treatment. They only accept cash.  Either a receipt or permission to call them and make sure she goes.  I know I'm not supposed to be giving her money, but for treatment, we are paying, as long as we can be sure that's where its going.  

By the way, what would happen if she smoked heroin or took pain pills while on suboxone?  It would make her sick wouldn't it?  They only give her one dose at a time and she has to take it in front of them so if I get confirmation she's still going I would think that would probably mean she isn't using again?  Would it?  

Pam
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Sorry Jane...You, hang in there OK.  
I completely agree with jaybay.  
Jane if your daughter is in rehab, reguardless if it's court ordered or her choice...find a little peace, knowing she is there :)  Even if forced...it might just be enough for things to click for her.  Don't lose faith ok.  
She is in a situation, and yes it is up to her to fix it...Your job is to take care of you....you can do it, your a strong woman.  There are many ups and downs, that go hand in hand with addiction.    
You'll smile again...you will also cry again, but each time you do...builds your strength.
It's "Our" emotional rollercoaster...the only one that can get control of that...is us.
Her life totally ruined, dont you believe that for a second...ok  
Here in NY...I believe it's the same for all states.  The system, wants to rehabilitate, and will give many chances.  My son has 2 b felonies...was given 3 chances at rehab, which of course you know the story.  He is where he is only because of his choices....not that he wasn't given the chance.  The judge he went before was a federal judge...get this, she her self about 5 years prior was charged with an accident.  DUI...hydros, she was addicted to hydros.  
She is still a judge, but an understanding judge, been there done that.  I believe many more are becoming more understanding of this epidemic.  They truly want to fit the person back into the life they deserve.  The judge asked my son what he wanted to do with his life.  He told her he wanted to go into law enforcement...but knew he screwed up that chance.  
She told him to go back to school, when he was finished...she wanted to see proof of how he did.  If he did well, she would help him with the felonies.  Really not sure how, as he hasn't yet made it that far.  
I DO believe in miracles...I have had several touch my life...you know of one of the biggest, my little girl.  Hold your head high !!!
HUGS to you jane...try to find a reason to smile...
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my post came up with yours...since I'm here, I know you asked jaybay...but to ease your mind.  Subs and Drugs = SICK
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The way the naloxone component of Suboxone works is somewhat misunderstood.  You have to be in a certain amount of withdrawal before you take the first dose so that the buprenorphine and naloxone can take up residence on the opiate receptors in the brain.  After that, any new opiates the person takes have no place to reside so they really don't do much at all.  

Your daughter is the only one who can answer your questions as to why she turned to drugs and she's not even close to ready to confront them right now.  While it's true that most addicts are trying to escape some kind of mental pain, it's not true in all cases.  Some had great lives, started using recreationally, got hooked and can't find a way out.  Their addiction then causes them to lie, cheat and steal to support it and also to keep it a secret.

If your daughter's rehab was indeed court-ordered, that should be public information.  If you can track down the court that heard her case, try speaking to the court clerk to find out the details of the judgment.  Getting information from the rehab facility (if she's really going to one) will be more difficult.  Your daughter is a legal adult and HIPPA laws prevent medical practitioners from releasing any medical information to anyone unless the patient signs a release form specifically naming individuals who can have access to it.  Don't be surprised if they won't tell you anything.  It's not that they don't want to help; by law, they can't.

When was the last time you did something for yourself?  I'm very worried that you are falling into the trap that most of us do: living your life for an addict and allowing yourself to be lost in the process.  She's your daughter; of course you love her and worry about her!  The problem is that you're living in HER addiction.  Please don't let her take you down with her.  You set a very reasonable boundary of not paying for her treatment unless you hear her voice and have proof that she's going.  Stick to your guns!  Don't get sucked into anything less than the boundaries you established.  The ball is now in her court.  It's up to her to figure out what to do with it.  Now get out of the house and go do something nice for yourself.  :-)
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Please dont blame yourself!! I to am a recovering heroin addict(im on subutex,been opiate free for 2 years) my parents were normal hard working people.I left school at 16 got an electrical apprenticeship,had money in my pocket and started smoking weed first,then started partying and taking extacey,and speed.Then because i had a good job a car and a girlfriend i thought i was bigger than herion, f$£k i was wrong!! Addiction starts and its hard to stop BUT not impossible.You have given your daughter all the support you can, now its up to her,PLEASE DONT BLAME YOURSELF TAKE TIME TO LOOK AFTER YOU AND THE REST OF YOUR FAMILY.Believe me there is nothing you can do by worrying and blaming yourself.If you keep her on the subs,it fills the receptors in the brain and leaves very little room for herion to attach its self and get a hit.So there is no point in using opiates,this is the reason im on subs and not methodone which is easy to use on top.Please take care and STOP WORRYING
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Thanks so much for the support.  You have helped me so much its amazing.  I learned 2 things today, rehab is not court ordered and also she sent me a copy of the receipt from the clinic dated today for this week's charge.  I still don't understand why she's not going home and hanging out with the wrong people again but hope to speak to her tonight and have a chance to ask exactly what is going on.  Right now it sounds like she's getting a lot of pressure and constant questions about what is she doing, where is she, etc., etc. that she is getting really upset by it.  Its hard not to question her, she has only been clean a couple weeks and it was HEROIN for heavens sake.  Money is still going fast but it might just be that she  had spent everything she has on drugs for so long and hasn't bought any necessities for a long time.  I think she understands us asking but her boyfriend is really having a hard time with it, more than us even.  I will keep you posted.  Thanks again.

Jane
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Thank you so much for the response.  It really helped me.  I'm not saying my kids have had a perfect life, I know its been far from perfect, like most people, and this thing came out of nowhere.  Thanks for sharing your story with me.  It even sounds familiar in some ways.  Congratulations on your success and you have a LOT to be proud of :-)  You are taking your experience and making something very positive out of it, not only helping yourself, but helping others.  Thank you!

Jane
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Jane So Sorry for the mix up...don't know where my minds been...but clearly not right :)
Very happy to see your getting answers and know your daughter is doing what shes telling you...It helps to ease the mind.  Hope you can get some sleep now, also very glad to hear your doing something for yourself :)
Your A GREAT mom...your daughter is very lucky lady !!!
Will write later
Hugs & Prayers...to You
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Deb,

The info. you gave me answered what I was wondering, either way there's no point for her to take both the subs and heroin.  I really hope they aren't giving her take home medicine, she might be selling it??????  This is just awful, I can't trust anything she says, she usually makes me feel better then my mind goes nuts and starts doubting and thinking up scenarios about what could be going on.  I don't want to put so much stress on her that she relapses but I don't want to sit here without saying anything while she goes downhill either.

I guess eventually I'm going to have to break down and realize you all are right, I need to let go.  I can't control things.  It isn't up to me.  All the questions in the world aren't going to make her tell me the truth if she's hiding something.  Its so hard.

Jane
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It IS hard...  
Hang in there...
Your gaining strength daily, just don't know it yet.  
I did the same thing your doing...it's normal....Your a Mom :)
Rest Your mind Jane...right now she seems to be doing the right things. you WILL drive yourself crazy with the what if's.  
Take it day by day...when and if...something changes...then you deal with it
Hugs and Prayers to you
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I cant stress this enough, you have to start working your own program here.  The stress is eating you alive.  This is NOT your fault and blaming yourself only leaves that enabling door open.  You said in a post you are careful about putting to much stress on her cuz you are worried she will relapse.  My dear, you dont have that much power.  We use by our own choice.  That is all on us, not you.  We may use it as an excuse but the bottom line is it is our decision.  Dont beat yourself up over not trusting her.  She has done that to herself.  There is no reason to trust her right now and that is okay to feel that way.  Once recovery is a part of her life then her actions will speak louder than words.  The what if's dont matter nor do the reasons behind her using right now, it still wont change the trust issues.  Addiction is a family issue, the addict needs to work on themselves and the family members need to work on their issues.  We define insanity in the addiction world as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  This applies to you too.  It is time to bury yourself in your recovery.  All you can do at this point is take care of you.  As one lady on MH says, support their recovery, not their addiction.
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hi jane,
yes it is ok that there is no trust now. how can there be? she will have to earn that back in time. i have learned not to ask the questions. absolutely no need. i used to get the answers they thought i wanted not the truth. i learned when i asked the questions i was only setting them up to lie to me. so i dont ask anymore. i am "living and letting them live". please do yourself a very big favor. i made the mistake of not going to alanon early on. boy i wish i had. i feel so much better since i have been going. we become as sick as them. i love my meetings. 2 or 3 a week.  i so look forward to them. all my qualifiers (my husband,son,daughter)  know i go. ithey know i am there to heal. not talk about them or try to figure them out. it is my recovery that i am finally taking charge of. we didnt cause their addiction, we cant fix their addiction, we cant control their adddiction.
hugs and continued prayers to you and yours
debbie
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The questions are always asked about how do we know if the active addict is lying and the answer is every time we open our mouths........
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It's odd I just happened to check on this thread today.  This morning's aftercare meeting ended up focusing on expectations.  We can't expect to trust the addicts in our life because they've broken our trust time and again.  We also can't expect them to understand our expectations while they're using and on into early recovery.  For so long we always expected the worst.  When they begin to recover, it's very difficult for us to change that expectation.  Even when everything we see tells us they're doing better, we still expect the worst.  That's why recovery is a process for everyone involved.  Change is messy, uncomfortable and above all where addiction is concerned, time-consuming.

One of the hardest things to learn is that we can't change someone else.  If they're on a course of self-destruction, the kindest thing we can do is stand out of the way and allow it to happen as soon as possible.  That's how we human animals learn: from our mistakes.

Another hard thing for me to learn was to realize that just because a person is in a rehab program doesn't mean sanity and sobriety will return immediately.  Recovery is a long process and often with a series of relapses.  The trick is to admit you fell down and get right back on that horse.  We family members tend to have unrealistic expectations of rehab and recovery.  Even if our loved one relapses, we have to continue with our own recovery and not let their actions determine our actions.

Hang in there girl and get yourself back up on that horse!
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Haven't been on here in a few days because I've been trying to "get a life".  I've been trying to focus on my other 2 grown children.  I'm also limiting my internet because its too tempting to constantly check emails and messages and her bank acccount to try and see what's going on.  Its so hard and I'm not being very successful.

The latest is that she has relapsed, hard.  Her "good" boyfriend whom she has left found out she's not doing suboxone, she's doing methadone and adding heroin to it.  The only thing we have been doing by paying for her treatment is reducing the amount she pays to get drugs.  We have since stopped paying for treatment and she has moved out of her apartment and in with her drug dealer again who is controlling and mean.  He is texting me from her phone and pretending to be her, asking for things, my credit card info. and her checking account and routine numbers, etc., etc.  I may have been in denial till now, but I'm not stupid.  I was trying to talk to her by voice this weekend and he took the phone from her, trying to tell me that we were horrible parents and we are why she ended up like this... I handed the phone to my husband and they he totally let loose on the dealer.  Since then we haven't had as many guilt trips and begging texts...  She had a tire shred on her car and now cannot make it to work.  We refuse to pay for a new one.  After that there will just be something else, and on and on...  What good is a job anyway when your dealer takes it ALL the day you get it and none of your bills get paid?  Its a matter of time till that car gets reposessed, they are probably looking for her right now.  Wouldn't she love if we bought her tires and when they came to reposess the car we might bail her out of that because we just bought the new tires and didn't want to lose that...  I'm so sick of being scammed and so very sad right now, trying to have a Christmas while she's so helpless and sick.  I know its not within my control and we have to remain strong but I'm not very good at it yet.  I've been physically sick for over a week now from the stress.

My husband has a high school friend who is a cop near where she lives.  It is a high intensity drug area and he is permanently stationed at a high school, making busts and trying to stop teen prostitution for drugs.  Its so bad there every county has a drug task force...  He also said what you all say, cut the money off, it isn't helping her, its providing drugs to her and if she doesn't hit bottom she can't and won't help herself.  He did say that if she were suicidal we could possibly make a case to take custody of her and have her flown home for mental treatment but it is very tricky to actually accomplish that since she's not a minor.  Even then, if she doesn't want to get better we will pay for that treatment and she might just come out and do the whole thing all over again.

I'm trying not to allow myself to obsess as much and keep busy during the day but when I lie down in bed to sleep, my mind starts racing and won't stop.  I just can't seem to control it.  I am going to find meetings to go to after the holidays, right now my other 2 are home and I'm not going to start till they leave.  It isn't fair to them or us to let her poor choices ruin our family time.  I have hesitated going to meetings because every time I think about her situation I just start sobbing and I don't even know if I could even get anything out of the meetings while so upset. Thank you all for checking on me, I wish I had better news.

Jane
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don't know what to say....there really are no words.
Your moving through the "process"...you have much behind you, your starting to see the situation with different eyes...to bad the heart can't follow just yet...
Time heals ....my heart breaks with yours. Hold tight my friend.....were not alone
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(hugs)  Bad as the truth of your daughter's situation sounds, it may be a blessing in disguise.  This may be the beginning of her rock bottom.  Only time will tell but I pray that her life will become so awful that she'll realize the only way out is recovery.

It sounds like you have also reached your own rock bottom.  I know it sounds weird, but that's a good thing!  The only way to go from here is up. Don't worry about speaking in meetings.  It's not a requirement and you can listen only without actively participating until you're ready.

Do your other children know what is going on with their sister?  I'm concerned that the dealer may try to get money out of them since she's cut off from your bank account.  For that reason alone they need to know exactly what's going on.  If ever there was a time for the family to pull together, it's now.  After all, isn't this the season that we're supposed to make an extra effort to love and support our fellow man?  That philosophy should apply to family members first and foremost.

You're all in a crisis situation so don't let secrets make it worse.  Telling the truth and talking about it can be a very liberating and healing experience.  Get past the family meeting, have a good long cry and then turn toward having an enjoyable time with your family.  :-)
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It's okay to go to those meetings and just cry.  You dont have to say all the right things, you dont even have to say anything.

Believe it or not, you are making progress.  You are starting to stand your ground and trust me your daughter is noticing.  I know she doesnt like it but it makes us think.  We speak of hitting rock bottom, that is after we go thru all the trap doors also.  She is there now.  As addicts we find ourselves flat on our back and the only way to go is up.  I hope and pray that is soon for her.  I know where she is, i know the feelings, i know the insanity, i know the hopelessness and i also know the first time we stand on our own 2 feet.  It is scary as he!! and it feels like the world is eating us alive but that flicker of hope keeps us going.  The most important thing is when we turn to our families they need to be healthy~~

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Her siblings do know exactly what's going on.  I wouldn't keep it from them.  She has a twin sister and a brother who is 4 years older.  Both well adjusted normal young adults.  They haven't been asked for money because she knows they would say no.  She has never been close to her siblings, for some reason she always felt insecure around them.  I hope you all are right and this might be bottom...  I don't really have any hope of things getting better at this point though.

Jane
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I'm sure you dont have much hope at this point as reality is rearing its ugly head right now.  The not being close to her siblings comes from her own lack of self worth.  I lived that for many MANY years with my brother.  Always thought he was the golden child.  It was my problem and one i had to come to terms with.  I know i spend time writing about your daughter when this is about you but i am hoping that you will understand more of where she is at and why and that you are not to blame.
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Sara~

OMG, she calls her brother and sister "golden children".  She actually uses those words!  That is the weirdest coincidence I could have ever imagined.  She has always had poor self esteem and I feel like she doesn't think she deserves a good life.  She mentioned to her boyfriend (the good one) that she isn't good enough for him.  Then she had the relapse.

I'm glad you write about my daughter, it helps me to see where she's coming from and that insight is important. The more I understand what she's going through and why things happened the less time I spend beating myself up.  Thank you Sara.

Jane
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When we talk about the "golden children" that is really what we think.  We do think we are lesser than they are and we go into a victim role, the poor me role etc.  By this time we become very defiant in our thinking and drugs make us feel good, we found something that loves us, so we think and our love affair is off and running.  Our drugs take the place of everything and everybody.  We use anyone and anything to get what we need.  We beg borrow and steal.  Feeding our addiction becomes a daily goal and our only goal.  After awhile we chase that high that rarely comes anymore.  Our lives are in ruins, the pain of losing so much comes thru so we try to get high again to numb those feelings.  Emotions are foreign to us, uncomfortable and terribly painful.  We look at other people and wonder how the he!! they can smile or laugh or just live day to day not being messed up.  We really do feel we deserve to be living this way.  It is a roller coaster ride in hell, we dance with the devil and he becomes our lover.  This is just a glimpse into the world of an addict.  Everything we do is by our own choice, noone else.  
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Hi jane,reading your post makes me realize what i put my own parents through, especiallly my dad,because i lived with my dad through 5 years of my addiction.It drove my dad crazy he knew all my dealers numbers where i scored from etc.. he was even trying to get a gun to shoot them all!!Thankfully he never did.The way he coped was to emotionally cut ties with me he sort of stopped caring,it helped at the time for me to know this to make me realize what i had become.take care.Chris
P.S Thank you for your kind words.If some good can come from all the bad times and this is it that gives me some peace.
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Sara...powerful words...made me cry.  Your an amazing woman.

rizboy...we Never give up on our children...our love and emotions can not be cut....we only go numb.  A Son...Your father should be proud...what a caring man you are.

Jane....Hugs and Holding YOU Tight
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Chris, It really helps to hear what you said about your Dad.  It gives me a glimmer of hope that maybe one day she will realize why we had to cut her off.  She doesn't seem to be blaming us but I know that's because she's hiding it, thinking she might be successful getting something if she plays on my guilt instead of getting angry.  I think from her side its a game, testing us and trying to find a way to grab us and suck us in so we enable her yet again.  You are doing good work here, Chris, helping people and its good to see that reading this thread has helped you understand your Dad better.  Deb is so right, my numbness is starting to develop too.  I've cried more in the past few weeks than in my entire life prior to that.  It can't continue to go like this for me...

Sara, your insight is so powerful.  It is helping me when I talk to her to try and say things that impact her.  Knowing where she's coming from is really making me "target" my words to her feelings better.  I know nothing I can say will make her get clean, it has to be her, but I do want her to know that I understand her as much as I can.  

She texted me yesterday saying without new tires her life is pretty much ruined.  She can't get to work or treatment, etc., etc.  I texted her back to call me.  I'm not doing this texting thing anymore.    Its obviously uncomfortable to talk to me and that's why she does it by text...I'm going to respond from now on that if she wants to talk to me, call.  I told her giving her new tires will just be a band-aid on a much, much larger problem.  She will work, get a paycheck and spend it on drugs.  Her bills won't be paid still and she will be driving her drug dealer around in that car.  We are not doing it.  We offered her rehab again.  Not outpatient, she is beyond that.  She needs inpatient intensive help in another state.  Not here in her home state or where she is now either.  She knows people who can provide her with drugs when she gets out.  She needs a fresh start, beginning with inpatient rehab.  She was crying and not responding to me, so her older brother took the phone and spoke to her.  Although she feels inferior to him, she respects her brother and if she would listen to anyone I feel like he had a good chance of talking some sense into her.  He asked her to tell him one reason why she doesn't want rehab and she had no answer.  She agreed to go and then started crying, saying she would call back in a couple minutes when she got ahold of herself.  We started researching facilities and in a few minutes, "she" texted me and said she needs tires and won't go to rehab somewhere else, she loves it there.  All that for nothing.  In the meantime I'm sure the dealer talked her out of it and he probably was the one who wrote the text back.  I only answered with, if you want to speak to me, call.

I keep telling myself that her getting help isn't within my control but still underneath am trying to find some sort of "hook" to grab her with.  It is starting to sink in though.  Just the fact that she said she still loves it out there even though she has nothing left, including friends, boyfriend, money, etc., etc. hit me hard and told me she isn't ready no matter what I say or do.

I did tell her she looks AWFUL, like she's aged 10 years in the last 3 months.  She said she didn't think so and I told her I am scanning 2 photos of her side by side and emailing them to her.  I want her to SEE what she's doing to herself.  She actually said she wanted me to do that.  

Well, the family is starting to wake up and I'm going to get off the computer and start my day, trying to put her out of my mind and give the rest of the family some pleasant memories of this Christmas.  Thank you, friends.
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hi all,ive just been re-reading your posts and its made me cry WOW!! the problem with addiction is it makes you selfish,its like your a slave thats being violated inside out,its only when you come throught the other side you realized all the hurt and pain you have caused.You are all amazing people i need you to know that.I know you have tried this but ,when you see your son/daughter tell them again what they are doing to you,scream at them, shout at them ,cry at them,then cut them off.It may not have instant effects but keep driving home what they have done to you.Debs..thankyou your to kind.all the best everyone.AND LOOK AFTER YOURSELVES. Chris
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Stick to your guns!  You are handling this crisis in a way that many people can't and I for one am very proud of you.  Sounds like you have lots of support from your hubs and the other kids too and that is priceless.  :-)
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I....#2...VERY proud of you, Jane !!!  How can this Not Change...I hope you... can See the mother your daughter has.  As tough as this is....your doing all the right things....right from the beginning
You Jane... give me strength.....
Chris...Your above post ALSO made me cry.  This thread...pretty emotional.  Makes my heart warm....there ARE still Great people, in this world...made very clear, by this entire thread :)
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Thanks everyone for the continuing support.  I don't know what I would do without you!  You have all contributed so much to my surviving this crisis and maybe some day to my daughter's recovery.  

I got 2 texts from her yesterday, one telling me not to answer calls or texts from her phone this weekend (her dealer monitors her phone and pretends to be her) I answered that by asking if I'm going to be able to talk to her at some point and she said "yes, just listen to what I just texted you".  Well that means I'm not going to be able to talk to her this weekend since I'm not "allowed" to answer.  

I must say, I'm not crying quite as much now, I'm starting to get angry on and off.  I know she is sick but she created this situation herself and the way she's trying to use us and lie to us is starting to get to me and change my attitude.  Is it normal to feel this way or is this just the first step of giving up on her?  I can't imagine ever giving up on her but my change in attitude I couldn't have predicted a few days ago either...  

Its just so cruel, all the love we've given her, putting her through college, buying her a car as a graduation gift, its all wasted.  It isn't only gone, but it was used to destroy her and us.

So I know that even if the phone rings on Christmas it isn't going to be her.  How is that supposed to make us feel?  Well, here come the tears again.  Ugh.

Jane
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Jane I'm so sorry you're going through all of this.  This is heartbreakting.

I just wanted to offer a bit of support as I have a sister who is still in full blown addiction (alcohol, cocaine, other things too I'm sure) and she uses guilt on me all the time.  All I can tell you is you are NOT to blame.  Neither was I but they feed on that guilt and use it to find a way back into your lives, only to use you and leave you again.  I'm done allowing my sister to do that to me and I'm relieved to hear you say you're angry.  You should be.  This is something only she can decide for herself.  This kind of behavior is manipulative and cruel.  Stick to your guns here and offer help only in the form of rehab.  Tell her you will no longer be a part of the problem, only the solution.  And the rest is up to her.

My prayers are with you and your family.  I hope you're able to find some good moments during this holiday season.  Because you deserve it.  :)
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I am actually glad you are feeling some anger now.  You have every right to feel that way, it doesnt mean you dont love her, it just means you are going to start loving yourself.  Check out the grief process, this is something you are going thru now.  Dont give her the power to destroy anything else in your life now.  Take your power back.  She didnt set out to do this to you or herself on purpose.  It is the nature of the beast.  You wont give up on her, you just wont be participating in her active addiction.  We are masters of the game and everyone else is our pawn.  You cant compete with an addict.  

My wish for you is to find some peace during the holidays, light a candle for your daughter, we always look for the light at the end of the tunnel~~sara
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I feel so empty.  So hopeless.  Like she's already gone permanently.  There's nothing anyone can do.  She's not the person I know anymore and never will be again.

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Actually you don't know that for sure sadmom - if she finds her way out and decides, for herself, that she no longer wants to live like this, there is hope that she can return to her former self.  Never lose that hope okay?  I think all we're saying now is to make sure you take care of YOU too right now and get the support you need.  That doesn't mean giving up on her - it only means making sure you are well so when she does return to you, you'll be healthy, strong and able to help.  Please don't let yourself go there right now - things could change if she decides that for herself.

And I'm with sara - light a candle, say a prayer for her and you and the rest of your family.  And continue to support her on her recovery - and not her addiction.
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I know it feels hopeless but it isnt.  Underneath all of the pain both of you are living and feeling she is still your girl.  Addicts are kind loving caring people. Our behavior while in active addiction covers that up.  Get out and get some fresh air, say a prayer and keep that candle lit~~
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Jane - I have spent some time reading through this thread and my heart and prayers go out to you and your family.  My 22 year old daughter was addicted to methadone and has just recently went through detox and is now 16 days clean and sober.  It is so hard as a parent to watch your child suffer and feel so helpless.  The people on this site helped me through the hard times and gave me good advice about what to expect and the support and courage to make it day by day.  The fear, guilt, loss and concern doesn't go away but it can be managed.  You are a great Mom and have a very supportive family.  You are also an inspiration for those of us who find ourself in a similiar situation.  The one thing I have learned from this site is that addicts have a pattern and their actions are driven not out of love or concern for who they hurt but for their desire and need for the drug.  One of my favorite quotes to help me keep things in perspective is "When you make a mistake, don't look back at it long. Take the reason of the thing into your mind, and then look forward. Mistakes are lessons of wisdom. The past cannot be changed. The future is yet in your power."  Please continue to stay strong and know that there are many people praying for your daughter, you and your family. Merry Christmas and I hope your new year is filled with much joy and happiness.  Jeff
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Ditto what Domino said!  Anger is a normal, healthy emotion for you to feel right now and it's entirely appropriate.  Nobody wants to have their trust abused or their gifts flushed down the toilet.  See, you're looking at the big picture of her life and right now she can't see it.  It's just too darn scary.  Try not to confuse "giving up on her" with detachment.  You can detach yourself from the insanity of your daughter's addiction while still standing ready to support her recovery when she's ready to do it.  

Really, you're doing a great job of establishing boundaries and sticking to them.  She's going to guilt trip you every step of the way but I think you're wise to the fact that it's only a form of manipulation to get you back to supporting her addiction like a "good", guilt-ridden parent.  

After a lifetime of drug and alcohol addiction, my husband has about 7 months sober time under his belt.  In the beginning, I had it in my mind that life would one day go back to normal.  Well, shoot - it's never BEEN normal! Why it took me over 20 years to see that little truth is beyond me.  I was just as much in denial in my way as he was.  

Life is so completely different from anything I imagined now that he's sober.  He's an entirely different person and I'm greatly enjoying getting to know him.  He is also discovering things about himself and exploring an etirely different lifestyle that he truly enjoys.  There is a peace in sobriety that he never had while trying to find it in a pill or a bottle.

The reason I share this with you now is so that you don't spend too much time looking for the daughter you thought you had and wishing for her return because that's not the person you want.  There were likely problems going on in her life that you never knew about even before she picked up the first time.  Those are the things she'll have to face honestly  when the drugs won't cover it up anymore.  That along with the harm she's already done to herself and others during her active addiction.  When she's ready to do what needs to be done, you'll see a person you haven't known before.  In fact, she's in there now.  She's just horribly scared and not ready to come out yet.

I hope you've managed to enjoy some quality time with the rest of your family this Christmas.  Staying busy and distracting yourself is a good thing.  Don't forget to count the blessings you surely have in your life right now.  All is not lost.  :-)
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How you doing Jane?
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Thanks for the responses.  I've managed to make it through Christmas although I feel like I've been physically beaten up from all the stress.  I have managed to control my emotions this week, except when alone, like now.  I didn't want to ruin Christmas for the others because of mourning for the daughter I thought I had and now don't.  She didn't even call on Christmas.  I'm sure this is just another manipulation.  The money stopped, so now she's punishing us and trying to place even MORE guilt.  I'm incredibly sad, but her not calling is reinforcing the fact that we did the right thing cutting off the enabling.  Its forcing her to be honest.  The fake "love" she says she has for us is done.  Maybe if/when we hear from her next she will be sincere.

My son left after his week home from Atlanta and other daughter is still here for the rest of the week.  I am planning to get out of the house as much as possible and keeping busy.  Thanks for being there for me.

Jane
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I wish I had some good news, Jane. Im a recovered addict with 17 years clean. I stopped when I was 27 and had lost just about everything. My son was 5 then and for years I preached to him about the evils of drugs and did everything I could to insulate him from it. Yet he started smoking pot at 12, pills shortly thereafter, and has been a herion addict for several years now. He's 21. After several counslers, rehabs, jail stints, and thousands of dollars the only thing he's shown is that he's become a better liar and criminal.I love him with all my heart but both his mom and myself have put him out of our homes. He's broken probation and will be going to prison for 10 years when they pick him up. In good conscience I have to turn him in if I find out where he is. He'll commit burglaries and deal heroin to supply his own habit, and that could cost someone else their life. If I dont help the police pick him up; I'm partially responsible for the damage he does. There comes a point where we have to realize that helping them is not within our power, and walking away means we're letting them loose on innocent people. My son does not love me now because he isnt capable of love. Maybe someday he will again. Right now he is a threat to society and my job as his dad is to do what I can to prevent him from burglarizing, robbing, or supplying this drug to others. I pick up the local paper and see these young kids dead of a heroin overdose and I cant help but wonder if they got it from my son. My best advice is to take care of yourself and enjoy time with your other kids. As for your daughter and my son, it's between them and God to make the decision to change.   Pat
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Pat,

I'm so sorry to hear about your son's problems.  It must be so hard to be caught between your flesh and blood and his crimes.  I've never been in your position, obviously, but understand fully what you are saying.  At some point he went from being family to someone who is dangerous.  I'm really hoping we don't get to that point but know it is a possibility.  I could possibly see myself turning her in if it came to that.  I can't say for sure because I'm not in that position yet.  I've already called the police twice when she went missing and told them EVERYTHING, about the drugs and everything about who I think she's living with.  Unfortunately I don't have an address, only an area where she might be.  This guy is nothing but trouble but I can't blame him totally, she chooses to live there.

You are a strong person, Pat and I'm glad you wrote me.  Your successful recovery means something to me, it gives me some hope.  At least some of the time things turn out ok.

She wrote me an email from work this afternoon saying she wanted to call on her way to work but left her phone at home and hopes we had a merry christmas.  Yeah right, she won't call from "home" and she left her phone (we bought it for her because she pawned the old one and we wanted to stay in touch) with her drug dealer boyfriend because that's more important than calling her family.  :-/  That phone was and will be the last thing we bought her.

Jane

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hi everyone. i am trying to make a healthy detachment from my daughter.
i love her so much but her actions are speaking louder than her words.  she has broken 2 phones in the last month. she said she drops them i know she or her bf throw them when they fight. i had told her one month ago i would buy her one for christmas.
last sunday, ten days ago she stole money from my purse and also jewelry, she quit her job. we told her she wasnt welcome to live here anymore. i thought she had been doing better, i was again fooled.
she went to her bf to live at the mothers. she asked if she could stay on christmas eve. we allowed it.  i didnt get her a new phone. she was mad. could you believe it. she stole from us, quit her job and got mad i didnt buy her a new phone. yea, i am such a bad mother.
she isnt listening to reason and she is so unreasonable telling me she could be worse. she is justifying her use and saying she doesnt use everyday. bravo. yes she could be worse but could also be much better.

i have been so distraught. my 2 youngest are 12 and 14 i am being unfair to them. i am letting too much of my emotions,energy and time focusing on my daughter. i have been moment by moment letting go and letting GOD. i have to. i am going crazy. i am so considering going away by myself for a week. something i have never done before.

jane please take a few steps back. it is the only thing we can do. i have been praying for GOD to paint her into a corner. i will pray the same for your daughter.
we never will give up on our children, we just need to detachment.
we need to still live and function without the daily worrys and concerns that they cause us.
we will never give up hope. my husband and my son have been in recovery and i know my daughter will also be. it just isnt her time yet.
love and hugs
debbie
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You will never give up hope on your kids but you have to quit living in their addiction.  It is always said that when the addict has had enough they will stop.  This also applies to you as the family members.  I have said many times that we will beg borrow and steal from anybody and that includes the ones we love the most.  Nothing your kids are doing is surprising to me, I have been there done that.  They are very sick right now and the drugs are talking.  I am in no way making excuses for them, just stating the facts.  This is not their boyfriends fault or anyone elses.  They are making these choices on their own, no matter what their living arrangements are.  Expecting anything from an active addict will only set you up for disappointment, that is a guarantee.  Only you can decide when you have had enough~~~~sara
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Debbie, let's make a pact.  Let's do this together... I know I've been a soggy mess for a what seems like a year to me but really has only been about a month and a half and I'm going to stop crying now.  Enough is enough.  It hasn't helped, its only spread the misery to those around me worse than it has to be.  Will you join me?  

My motto from now on is to pray for the best and expect the worst, actions speak louder than words...  Our daughters owe it to us to earn the trust back, not using our love for them against us to manipulate for what they want.  From now on I believe nothing she says till I see it myself and even then I need to be ready for any positive development to disappear instantly with no notice.  That's just how it is.

Thank you Sara, I know you have repeated that message several times to me and I'm sorry but it took till now for it to sink in.  When she sent me an email from work yesterday telling me she "forgot" her phone at "home" after telling me not to answer if anyone calls from her phone over Christmas weekend, that did it for me.  She's driving to work with 3 bad tires and the phone we bought her is "at home".  I'm done.  I'm so glad you didn't buy that phone for your daughter, Debbie.  Wish I had made that decision too.  Like everything else we've tried to do for her, it was wasted.

I hope you all have a good day today.  Hopefully I can stay stronger than I've been.  Hang in there Debbie, believe me, you aren't alone.  If you are thinking about going away, what would you think about taking your younger kids with you??  A change of scenery and something fun to do would benefit everyone and you all could make a happy memory.  If you go by yourself, wouldn't you just spend the whole time worrying and crying?  Unfortunately I know it wouldn't make me feel better if I went alone.  Just a thought.  

Jane
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Jane,  You have no idea how long i was told the same thing!!  I was doing it my way and that was that.  This is all a process my friend.  Her tires may be bad but new tires bring good money when they are sold.  Just remember we will stop at nothing to get what we need to feed our addiction.  Set boundries for you now.

Deb, i agree with Jane on getting away.  Your 2 younger kids know something isnt right.  Why not take them someplace.  Look at the world thru their eyes for awhile, give them your undivided attention.  It may be just what the doctor ordered.

I wish i could take the pain all of you are going thru but i cant, all i can do is help you walk thru it.  Sending hugs your way~~sara
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I'm starting to have pangs of guilt over only one thing...that we aren't paying for her treatment.  She says she is still going, taking suboxone and getting counseling and sent me a receipt that she paid for it, but she is living with someone who in the past she told me was the person who supplied her with drugs.  Now she denies that and says he is supporting her getting better.  I don't get it and feel like if she's getting treatment we should pay but it doesn't add up...  She says her entire paycheck is going toward bills because she is horribly in debt and behind on everything.  I know the debt thing and being behind on bills is true, but don't know if that's where her money is going or not.  I haven't given her anything and really don't trust her for good reason but the treatment thing is complicated...  Its really hard to "turn off" the mother in me and say no to something that might be helping her...

I hope you all have a safe, happy new year.
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Jane. Is it a legitimate receipt?  How long has she supposedly been going to the doctor to get the suboxone? A couple of weeks?  Does she have medical insurance?
The thing is that they become so cunning,crafty and manipulative that it becomes very hard to distinguish fact and fiction.
I really want to commend you. You have learned in one month something that took me years to realize and learn. I think you are doing the right thing by not sending the money.  I look back now from earlier this year  and realize that  before I knew that my daughter was using again   I gave her money that was supposed to go for rent and medicene for her asthma more than likely was used to buy drugs .  
It has been 2 weeks sincewe told our daughter she couldn't stay here. She called and asked if we could talk. We think she is running out of places to sleep. I can say I have definitely been detaching and not so consumed by her.  I feel so much better and less depressed.
No I didn't go away. I spent the week with my boys at home, playing games, going shopping, taking walks. We had a good week together. They are concerned about their sister. Obviously they know things aren't right they are big boys and have already been through a lot with my husband and my older son. They understand their needs to be rules for her to live here.
My husband and I agreed that we would make a contract with her and if she abides by it then all well and good. If not then she isn't welcome and then she will have to figure out for herself what she will do. Believe me this is breaking my heart. I have lived with addiction in my immediate family for 16 years. I am very tired. I am also very strong. I will get through this.
Yes jane we have a pact. As I said you have come a very long way in a month and a half you are awesome. I am very proud of you. The insanity stops now.
I dealt with things on my own and suffered in silence for too long. No medhelp,no alanon, but now I have those things and we arre together in this and I want to thank you ladies for being there. I am so grateful.
Jane please try not to feel guilty if she isn't using anymore than the money she was using to buy her drugs can now go towards her treatment.
Continued prayers for your family
Many hugs and hope
Debbie
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I would check with the treatment center and see if she is really going.  If she is and you feel the need to help her pay for it, send a check directly to the center itself, NOT HER.  I dont buy for one minute that the guy she is with now is being supportive.  
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Debbie & Sara,

Thanks for the support, yet again :-)  I am not giving her anything, even for treatment, unless its inpatient and she breaks away from that jerk she's living with.  Guess I was just having a weak moment and the holidays were getting to me.  

Sara, you are right, there's no way that guy is being supportive.  He's controlling her every move and she's lucky he even lets her drive her own car.  Well, maybe she isn't for all I know!  My husband knows a cop out there and he said this situation sounds very familiar and this guy sounds like a pimp.  A dime a dozen punk, the city is full of them.  That hurt really, REALLY bad.  I thought writing my daughter is a drug addict was hard, this is even more so.  (I'm sitting here right now proofreading and debating whether to take that comment out of this posting before sending it!)  The cop "called her by mistake looking for her dad" the other day just to see what she sounded like and he said she sounded very sweet and polite and not drugged up at all.  Of course it was 8:15 a.m. while she was at work so that might have had something to do with it.  I'm surprised she even had her phone with her.

Debbie, she's supposedly been going for suboxone and treatment for approx a month.  She does sound better on the phone, but hardly ever calls or answers so she's probably just timing talking to me so she sounds better.   Her old boyfriend confirmed to me in the beginning it was suboxone because I was worried it was methadone and she would just use on top of it, then a couple weeks ago, he told me it wasn't suboxone and it IS methadone and she is probably using on top of it so I don't know what to think.  He is trying to help but this wasn't helpful at all.  If he didn't know for sure he should have just confirmed she's getting some kind of treatment and let it go at that.  Well, I guess it doesn't matter because she could use other things on top of suboxone too, just not opiates.  I'm 99% sure its a legitimate receipt and she took a pic of it on her phone and texted it to me within seconds of me telling her I wanted a receipt for the first time.  Obviously, it does not say what kind of drug they are giving her.  She is still on our health insurance but the center does not accept insurance and only takes cash.  Gee, they sound like drug dealers too.  Sara, I'm going to call the center on monday and see if I can find anything out but don't really expect them to tell me anything except maybe in general what kind of treatment they do and if they really only accept cash.  If the cash thing is a lie, then that confirms that she was manipulating me yet again.

Best news is that you are feeling better, Debbie.  That made my day to hear that you and your boys spent the week focusing on each other and having some fun.  They deserve it and so do you!  Hang in there, we can do this.  It isn't within our control what our daughters do, but I'm learning we can limit their self-destructive behavior's impact on us, at least somewhat.  

Its sad but I'm realizing I'm a changed person.  I was trusting and believed in the good in people, and now I trust nothing and am starting to think negatively about almost everything.  I'm glad this site is here, its really stopping me from totally hating everyone new I meet.  You all are reminding me there are a few good people out there.
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Jane, don't really expect to get any answers from the clinic or doctor. The whole confidentiality and hepa laws are definitely in place. I remember calling the methadone clinic when I was trying to confirm if my husband was going there. Would not could not give me any info. My husband had to sign a waiver. Initially he would not because he didn't want me to be privy to the info. Only when he was ready to and agreed to tapering did he sign the waiver and he then allowed me to come to the clinic with him to ask questions with him.  My husband was able to pay at the meth. clinic with a credit card. Only cash definitely seems shady.
Please be careful what you write to your daughter in text or email. He definitely seems in control.oh JESUS please protect her. You wouldn't want to put her in any more danger then she might already be in.
What kind of work does she do?  If she has been able to keep her job through this that seems like a good thing.
When was the last time you saw her?
Many hugs and much hope
Debbie
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Debbie,

We went to visit her a couple months ago.  It was right before we found out she was on drugs.  She looked and acted weird and was sweating for no apparent reason but we were too stupid to figure it out.  She works for a bank in the mortgage department.  Its an hourly job.  She has missed quite a lot of work lately from being sick and also a few days with the blown out tire.  I'm surprised she still has that job.  You don't know how many times I've sat here in this very chair and fantasized hurting that guy or worse...I would spend the rest of my life in prison if I knew it would save her but it won't.

Jane

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Well, thanks to you friends, I think we are starting to get somewhere with her.  She called me crying and said she wants inpatient rehab but is still deciding where she wants to do it.  This could be a ploy, but I'm hopeful it might be true.  I'm trying to convince her that our home state is the place she should be in rehab to get her away from the place and people she has deteriorated so rapidly around.  She insists she wants to go back out there afterwards though.  I figure I'm going to go along with that until we get her in the rehab here and they/we can work on her about not going back or starting somewhere new.  She thinks her boyfriend wants her back afterwards and I'm not so sure.  His communications with me lately have been very angry and he stated the last text I got from him that she's ruined his life too, almost as bad as hers.  I had to tell him we weren't covering her rent anymore and that set him off.  I don't blame him, but we have paid $1,000 in rent for that apartment (3 months worth) and she hasn't even been living there.  Enough is enough.  It is her responsibility, not ours.  

If she agrees to come back here, I think I might fly out there, get her new tires and we can drive her car and as many possessions we can fit in the car back here.  No tires unless this decision is final and I'm there with her.  I want to bring the car so it won't be a reason for her to go back although I'm not telling her that.

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I can push her over the edge and encourage her to make a "final" decision about coming here and going to inpatient rehab?  I've been telling her she deserves a good, stress free, healthy life and this is where she needs to start, there are no other paths to take her there...  I've also told her, only if she comes here and goes to inpatient rehab, we will catch her up on her bills, not pay them off, but get her up to date so when she gets better and goes back to work, she can start fresh.  

Jane
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She has to push herself over the edge.  I agree that getting her out of that environment is the best for her.  We have to change our playground and playmates when we enter the world of recovery.  I would look into a long term rehab place for her.  The typical 28-30 days isnt enough.  Try and stay in the moment right now.  Helping her when she gets out is fine but that is in the future.  Focus on the journey, not the destination~~

Keep us updated.  I hope and pray she goes thru with this now.
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Hi Jane, my heart truly goes out to you! Earlier today you posted on a thread about my son [Somebody PLEASE help me help my son] and your screen name just jumped out at me because it is SO me! I've been reading your story and OMG, we have been through so many of the same things, it's amazing ... and sad. The good news though, is that you seem to be "getting it" and taking your life back a lot sooner than I did. I hope and pray that you stay strong and stand your ground!  I tried many times, but always caved in eventually. My son has manipulated me in more ways than I can tell you ... at one point he even convinced me to take my own MRI to a pain clinic and get prescriptions of my own, fill them with my insurance so they would be cheaper, and give all the pills to him & his wife so they could sell them in order to pay their bills and get caught up ... I still to this day can't believe I actually did it. It was in a terrible part of downtown Atlanta, armed police on the front porch of the place and I had to be escorted through a locked steel door to see the "doctor". I was terrified but he had me so convinced that this was the only way to "help" him, that I went through with it ... not once, but twice!  He was so hooked on pain pills that he was willing to put his own Mother in an extremely dangerous situation and I was just as "sick" as he was because I did what he asked, even though in my gut I knew it was wrong!

He has lied to me and stolen from me so many times over the years that I lost count, he's been in so many jails I lost count, and I even got to the point that it was a RELIEF when he was locked up! It was the only time I ever had any peace.

This all started when my son was just 15 years old and I enabled him for so many years, forced him into rehab time after time, bailed him out of situation after situation, paid his rent, car payments, bought his groceries, etc, etc ... all the while he was spending his money on drugs. I even walked away from 2 husbands because "they just didn't love my son enough".  My son is now 35 years old, divorced and living with me again. My husband of 11 years (one that I am NOT willing to lose) and I let him move in with us with the understanding that he could not continue with the pain pills ... so he convinced me to take him to a methadone clinic to get off the pills, which I did and I pay for (in cash) every single week. He started drinking heavily in addition to the methadone, which is a real no-no, and got VERY sick. He was tapering off the methadone so I thought he was sick because of withdrawals.

I ended up taking him to the ER on December 19th and it turned out that he had severely damaged his liver and pancreas from all the years of pain pills, a lot of which  are FULL of massive amounts of tylenol, and years of drinking. He stayed in the hospital for 2 weeks and was the most pitiful sight you'd ever want to see. The doctors told us that there was nothing else they could do and that the only thing left was prayer.  A week ago I had to start thinking about burying my 35 year old son. My heart was breaking and I felt pain like I've never felt before and couldn't even imagine!
The doctors released my son a few days ago and he's still very sick and we still don't know how this will all turn out. He can't work and can't drive so I have to take him every 3 days for blood tests, to see specialists ... and yes, he still has to go to the methadone clinic. He is now literally fighting for his life!

The reason I'm telling you all this is because you sound so much like me in the beginning of my son's sickness and I don't want you to wait 20 years like I did. You sound like you're on the right track and I want you to STAY on that track and STAY STRONG!!! I'm begging you to stand your ground and don't give in!

I'm praying for you, your daughter and your whole family!

God bless,
Cindi
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Cindi~

That's why I posted on your thread too.  Your situation really hit me hard because as I read the entire thread I could see how each step of the way your decisions/actions would have been similar to mine in the same situation, before I found this forum.  Now we are both getting an education in how to handle this problem and I'm so glad for both of us!  Stay strong and I am proud to know you.  You are a great mother and now that both you and I have expert help we can do this right for the sake of our children.

Take care.

Jane
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Hi Jane, Yes we certainly are getting quite an education here - Thank goodness! I wish had found this site years ago but who knows ... If I had I may not have been through enough or open enough to listen.

You have made SO much progress in such a short time and that thrills my heart! Your daughter is very lucky to have you and one day she'll realize that :-)

I will continue to pray for you.
hugs,
Cindi
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Hi Jane....I've been thinking about you, so very much, actually my most recent experience, made me think of you, that much more.
I've had another eye opener...that I wanted to share with you.

I have for so long been wrapped up in my son...even though I continue with the tough love...emotionally, he still owns me,  he's my son
  
A week ago...I could have lost something just as precious to me... my daughter...because I still couldn't see past my son, and all that goes with "his" ever consuming addiction.
Life has settled, but this has only reinforced in me...how very much, I allowed his addicition to still control me, in other ways....I lost "sight" of my other children, and I didn't even see it.  
You have other children, that need you as much....Never give up on your daughter...but take a step back, and see the whole picture.  
I was fortunate everything worked out as it did...there certainly could have been a much worse out come.  
I looked around Jane...I SAW what I still have.
Another reminder of this journey...Maybe...but I was glad it was given to me, as heartbreaking as it was.  
So many things can change in a blink of an eye....
Always in My Prayers
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Deb,

Thank you soooo much for the wake up call.  It is so true, everything you said.  I keep thinking to myself I need to focus on the good, other things in my life but its almost like I'm daydreaming, only half there, as hard as I try.  I will keep trying though, eventually I might get better at it.

I'm so glad things have settled down for you as much as possible.  You are a good and loving person, Deb, and your entire family is lucky to have you!

Things are pretty much still the same here.  She is still saying she wants rehab but can't leave the state because of legal problems.  Her "good" boyfriend has had enough and if she does go to rehab in that state I don't know where she's going to live afterwards unless he reconsiders.  So complicated.  I know its her issue to solve, but I am very leery about paying for rehab when she has nowhere to go afterwards except back to "old" situations.  We can't afford inpatient rehab more than once, this needs to happen right the FIRST time.  I'm hoping to speak to her today when she's on break from work and see if I can get any more information from her.

Jane
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How is it going ladies?
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Sara,

Thanks so much for checking up on us :-)  We are getting closer and closer to inpatient rehab!  She has started calling around and found the one she wants.  They do medical detox with subutex along with other medications for rls, etc. (she's already on suboxone so I guess they will start by detoxing her from that) then intensive therapy, groups, training, etc., etc., for as long as you care to stay and pay.  It is on our insurance plan so although we will need to pay a lot, we are verrry lucky most of it will be covered.  I do have one question that I can't figure out, how long is enough?  When she spoke to the rehab over the phone, they told her she has to have an exact date she's checking in and they need to know how long she's going to stay.  I didn't expect that, I figured they would evaluate her and make a recommendation...  We figured at least a month, but in your previous post you said a month isn't enough...  Once she leaves there she will receive aftercare for life included in the price of rehab.  It is a once a week meeting with a network of graduates who have been in recovery at least a year checking on her and driving her to aa/na if necessary in between.

As far as living arrangements afterwards, she will be moving back in with her "good" boyfriend the way it looks now.  She did express an interest in coming home for a "few weeks" after rehab!  That was amazing to hear because before she went on the suboxone and was doing heroin she was adamant about NEVER coming back, even for a visit.  I asked her how she's going to get away from the guy she's been staying with, especially since he's so controlling and she told me she's going to "just disappear".  She will be gone for over a month to rehab that's over an hour away from where she is now and is on the edge of a park in the woods.  Especially if she visits home by the time she gets out of rehab he will probably stop looking for her.  He does not have a car so it wouldn't be easy for him to keep circling the city looking, especially long term.

Right now, the plan is to check in two weeks from now, she needs time to arrange leave at work and figure out some stuff and since she's on the suboxone she can plan things out better than she would have been able to on heroin.  Believe me, we are hopeful, but know this isn't a "done deal" yet.  As usual we are hoping for the best and planning for the worst.  Thanks!

Jane
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Hi Jane - You've really been on my mind lately and I wanted to pop in and see how you're doing? I hope things are going better for you ...

Cindi
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Cindi,

Thanks so much for checking in on me.  We're plugging along, she's still saying she wants inpatient rehab and we have agreed to pay for what the insurance company doesn't cover but she has a court date coming up and can't go till after that.  Hopefully it isn't some kind of stalling tactic...again.  She's still on the suboxone and working...  How are you????

Jane
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Ahh, I'm hanging in there. Unfortunately, I know what you mean about "if she's not stalling again" ... Are they the best liars and manipulators in the world, or WHAT?!?  I think my son should have been an actor, he's so good at it!!

He's still on the methadone and filled out a form yesterday to start tapering off. I have my fingers & toes crossed!

Hang in there ... lots of people are pulling for you ... and praying for you :-)

hugs,
Cindi
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We are masters at the game of deception and lies.  The key word here is GAME.  Once you are no longer part of our game we have to start taking responsibility for our actions.  That is why we preach recovery care so much.  When there are no players our game is over.
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Hi Jane,

I was really moved by your post, i feel your pain and I know how lost you feel. I have four sons, two in college, one in school and one in jail for a drug related crime. He came from a good family, he had every opportunity, but he gave himself to heroin instead. He was 17 when we found out he was using drugs, he's been in rehab twice, we've spent close to 100 thousand dollars on his "recovery", my point is that know matter what you do, how much you spend, how many hours you cry, nothing will matter until your child truly wants her recovery for her selfs sake. Please try Alanon, i resisted it for a long time, i didn't think it could possibly help, but you know what? it did :) I will pray for your little girl and your family,
Alexandria
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