Mary: Change my Republican mind!!!

Okay Mary you have made a challenge to change your mind, why don't you change our (Republicans) mind!!

[allaboutmary]

That's what I've been trying to do. LOL  So, what's it gonna take ........a look into the future ?   Well, look at the past 7 1/2 years .......only worse.
Think about it, we are losing jobs, homes, health care, savings.
When people say that McCain is more of the same, there is a reason.  This is fact.....look up the voting record....please......McCain admits this himself. ( I will find the clip and post it)
He was against regulations that could have stopped this wallstreet disaster.  Now he is for regulations.
Too be totally honest, I know Obama is not going to be able to live up to all his promises (neither could McCain) none of them do.  Republicans have had 8 years to screw this country up and they have done a fantastic job at it.  Four more years and we might not be able to pull out of this.   I'm pleading with you now.....please please look into this......you will find I'm right. You don't have to trust me go look up some facts please (or I can list them for you)lol.

[mimi1313]

I'm lazy, list them for me!

[allaboutmary]

Is there any particular issues your questioning ?

[HelpinUtah]

I can do the same going the other direction. I just have to find the time to filter through everything and then I'll post it.  

Voting for Obama is going to destroy this country!  It's my very strong opinion!  The man doesn't even love this country - it's obvious with many of the things he and his wife have said!  They put on a good show, but they are all lies!  You think things are bad now, just wait until he's in office and stops the fair doctrine act and starts giving handouts - watch your taxes go up.  He is a socialist and once we get there, we are screwed!  Look at Canada and England.  If you have cancer there, you can rest assure that you'll die before you can get medical care!  I know many canadians who come to the US for medical care because they have to get on long waiting lists in Canada.  At least that's what they tell me!  I would bet that within a couple years with Obama as president we will be paying close to 45% of our paychecks in taxes to the federal government with all the free things they want to give us!  They only do that to control us!  

If the democrats are so much better than why are things worse since the dems took over congress two years ago?  They promised so much and look where they are - they have a lower approval rating than Bush!  

I just wish we could find a good independent to vote in and show the parties we have had enough of the ****!!!!

[mimi1313]

Helpinutah; My mom loves Ron Paul.

Mary: Any info would be good. I'm an open minded person.

[allaboutmary]

Yeah right ....they hate this country and are out to destroy it for their two young children and the rest of us.  It's been his life long dream to get elected president so he could just **** us up !  

[allaboutmary]

I have to walk the dogs, but you can bet you will have tons to read by morning. lol  

[mimi1313]

I'm not questioning his charater so much as his strength. I just want to know what he's done. I mean give Palin credit she's really trying ot get things done and acts not just talks. It just seems like I see himn talking and writing but not much else.

[HelpinUtah]

Mary,
I respect everyones opinion, but I have very strong opinions too.  Just want you to know that.  My old boss and I were on total ends of the spectrum and we would have some fabulous debates!  I was able to say my piece and her hers and we remained very close and to this date are still friends who differ completely in politics.  But, that's fair.  It's America!  The right to disagree!  So, I do respect you and your opinions whether I disagree or not.  I just wanted to make sure you knew that!  

I guess when I hear Obama apologize to other countries that we don't learn their language before we go to visit their countries, it makes me sick.  I don't see others doing the same thing.  While on the campaign trail he chose to speak in Germany - WHAT!  What does that have to do with us voting over here!  He has made comments that one fof the reasons he won't put his hand over his heart during the national anthem is that the words are divisive and make others feel bad!  WHAT?  This is America that he wants to be the President for!  Why apologize for our national anthem and for our freedoms.  That's where my opinion comes that he must not truly love this country.  I have heard words of what appeared to me as hatred and disdain for this country from his wife and the preacher he went to Church with for many years and who was a part of his close personal circle for years.   I have a feeling he has a broader agenda than even his own party understands.  It's a gut feeling and I have to tell you that my intuition is usually right on about people!  

I'll be putting up tons of stuff to read too - but maybe not by morning.  Probably over the weekend!  

Have a wonderful day everyone!  I'm trying . . . .

[sterling_silver]

Have you read Obamas Health Plan? You are making stuff up. How do you get that 45% of your pay check? That's ridiculous. You can keep the health insurance you have now if you like it. Or, you can skip insurance if you want. I am sick of hearing about more Government with Democrats. The Republican party today is not your Daddy's Republican party. Republicans are the borrow and spend party. The government just paid 85 billion dollars to buy AIG. They insure our debt to China. Bush sold our country to China. I AM PRO LIFE. I can't vote for that this time around. Two reasons. 1. The country is really in bad shape. McCain is going to do everything exactly like Bush. All politicians lie, but McCain is beyond, beyond. At 9 in the morning he says the economy is fundamentally sound. At 4 in the afternoon the same day he says it is in crisis. His policies are responsible for this crisis. The War. Bush and Chaney lied to us. Iraq is one of the only countries in the Middle East that had nothing to do with 9/11. I heard John McCain say today. "I promise I will make sure your money at the bank is safe". OMG........I am 51 and I never heard any President say something like that. The economy is crashing. 2. Being pro life, I expect the Republicans to try and change that. They keep promising me that. Well, for 4 years, the Republicans had total power. The President, the House, The Senate, and the Supreme Court. They did not do one thing to overturn Roe V. Wade. They didn't even try.The only time they talk about it, is election time. Then McCain totally insults me, and picks Palen for Vice President. He picked her for one reason. To tug at my Pro Life heart and get a vote. Enough is Enough................No One can be as bad as Bush, except McCain. This is an easy choice.

[sterling_silver]

OMG.........Obama never said that c r a p about why he didn't put his hand over his heart one stinking time. Where did you hear that. On FOX. Please produce that for me. When you go to a football game. Do 80,000 people put there hand on there heart? They got one snap shot of him with his hand off his heart and they fed it to haters for a week. George Bush wears a flag on his lapel. Big Deal. Look what he did to our country.

[HelpinUtah]

Sterling,
I will find that quote for you.  I heard it right from his own lips!  It might take me a little while to find it somewhere.  It's funny I hear people who are democrats tell me that this year they are voting republican for the first time ever because the republican party of today is the like democratic party of the Kennedy years.  I've never heard it the reverse before.  I'm neither Republican nor Democrat - both parties need a good spanking if you ask me!!!  

If we would all get together and vote independent we would send a HUGE message to Washington that we've had enough of their politics.  

I have to do some research because I'm pretty sure that one of the reasons Republicans were so upset that McCain won the nomination was that he was too liberal.  I've also heard people like Joe Biden and other democrats speak fondly of John McCain previously stating that he was someone willing to work bipartisan and that he voted against Bush many times.  These are things I have heard with my own ears over the past several years!  Now that he's the nominee - they are changing their tune.  Unfortunately for them, those words will come back to haunt them.  I can absolutely bet it's coming from the Republicans.  

Like I said, what an interesting election year. It's ****!!!

[allaboutmary]

It's not Biden and them that are changing their minds it's McCain. He is even voting against bills that he wrote.
I have many republican friends and all of them are voting for Obama this year.  Why in the world would you vote for someone that has been voting with and agrees with Bush on 90% of the issues. This is not propaganda it is fact.

I'm sorry but I know exactly how your getting your information. Your gettting snip-its from t.v.  I know, because I used to do the same thing.  This is serious stuff and needs to be confirmed before you spread false things that you think you heard.

[allaboutmary]

As far as Sara Palin.......I believe people are inherintly good. I believe Bush did not intentionally screw this country up..I don't think that was his goal. Bush is not a thinker. He is not one to sit and weight things and get more information.
(how many times have you decided one way then changed your mind after you got more facts) I have done it many times. Bush doesn't seem to do this he makes up his mind and thats it. I think Sara Palin is more like Bush than McCain is.

[HelpinUtah]

Mary,

I do not have cable or satelite and so I do not get my information from any news source that would be pro-republican - the only news I get is local news and unfortunately it is pro-democrat and is extremely bias.  I'm not getting snip-its.  I actually do research.  I actually read what each side says and have visited their websites to read their ideas and plans for the country.  Luckily, I was able to hear both conventions and both parties said a lot of nice things but neither had much substance.  

I remember a couple years back many dems saying how easy it was to work with McCain and that he was working as a reformer.  But, now that he's running they are saying the exact opposite.  These are words I've heard myself with my own ears.  So, I'm NOT speaking from snipits or untruths - just simple facts of what I heard.  

It's interesting to say the least.  I know many people who are democrats who have said they are voting republican this year.  My mother has NEVER voted for a republican in her life and this year is voting republican.  I was shocked by that.  She told me that she has heard Obama say things that she does not like.  So, it sounds like it goes both ways.

I actually think this election is going to be a close race!  If you look at the polls, people are very confused by all the rhetoric.  What's sad is that recently a poll on one of the television stations stated that 67% of the country are dissatisfied with the choices this year. I happen to be one of them.  I can't remember which poll it was, but it was a fairly unbias poll company.  When I remember, I'll share it with you.  

Believe me I'm not trying to defend McCain (he was never my favorite candidate), but to be completely honest, I trust him more than Obama.  

[mimi1313]

Mary: I look forward to your list! As for the snip its, that's why I want to hear what others have to say that is undistorted fact. And as you said people change their minds. I'm a busy woman and this is actually very informative and is giving me insight to both candidates.

Sterling: I asked this question to get both sides. As Mary said both are making promises they probably cannot keep, I hope I'm not upsetting you, I'm just curious as to why people are voting for their particular candidate. Ironically, I'm pro choice and that makes me pause in my support for McCain and Palin. So any facts that you have for Obama I would love to hear. Your post sounds like you are a little upset(though I'm not sure as I haven't really had much contact with you) but my goal is to at least look at both sides objectively and I hope you will help me with that.
I would like your take on Biden if you don't mind.

[HelpinUtah]

I agree with Mary that most people are inherently good and do not purposely try to cause damage.  I just have a difficult time with Obama!  I look forward to reading what you have to post later.

[allaboutmary]

I know this is a cut and paste, but worth reading. I'm lazy tonight. My best time is early in the morning. Thats when I do my poll questions. lol
Beleive it or not I do like to hear both sides. Ya gotta mix it up ! lol  
I'm a registered Independent. I'm a Biden lover. He's a fiesty guy.

One of the most persistent criticisms of this year's Democratic nominee is that he avoids "specifics," preferring instead to prattle on about airy concepts like "hope" and "change" and "unity." This is partly true--Obama does talk about hope and change. But mostly it's false. The problem has never been that Obama is allergic to specifics. He's not. This year's Democratic primary contest was not only the most extensive and intensive in U.S. history--it was also by far the heaviest on policy, with both Obama and Hillary Clinton unveiling dozens of minutely detailed plans on everything from health care to energy over its interminable eighteen month span. It's just that people who weren't paying close attention--and that was most of us--heard Obama chattering about change far more often, and more loudly, than we heard him prescribing policy. Casual voters allot only a tiny corner of their brains to each presidential candidate. Obama filled that space with rhetoric. So he was stereotyped--and, in part, he stereotyped himself--as the guy who was more interested in speeches than solutions (even if his website was chock full of them).  

Which is one of the reasons why I wrote on Monday that the "disastrous news" from Wall Street represents a "huge [political] opportunity for Obama"--an opportunity, that is, to steer the spotlight to his economic plans and policies, which have been largely eclipsed, until now, by his emphasis on oratory. And despite McCain's "all talk" accusation, that's exactly what Obama has done. Now, nothing Obama has said since Monday has been "new," per se. But that's because he's already addressed these problems. On March 27, 2008 Obama unveiled a six-point plan for revamping our financial market regulatory framework; in February 2006 he introduced legislation to combat deteriorating mortgage lending practices. So when he took to the stage at the Colorado School of Mines in Grand Junction, Colo. Tuesday morning to say how he proposes "to restore confidence in our markets and turn our economy around,", he had plenty of specifics to draw on. Take his plan to provide 10 million middle-class homeowners 10 percent off their interest rate through a universal mortgage tax credit, for example. Or the one about giving the Federal Reserve supervisory authority over any financial institution it extends credit to. Or the one about ending our balkanized framework of overlapping and competing regulatory agencies.

The list goes on. The point is, Obama went to great lengths in his speech to get as specific as possible. Since then Chicago has released an in-depth fact sheet outlining Obama's plan and an ad, "Plan for Change" [above], that consists of nothing but the candidate staring straight ahead and soberly explaining his major policy positions. For Obama, this shift to specifics is simply good politics--a way to show a worried country that he's prepared to lead. You can disagree with Obama's proposals--many folks will, whether out of partisanship or principle. But to say, like McCain, that he's offering nothing but "talk" is simply false.

In fact, it's been McCain's response--not Obama's--that's felt a little light on substance so far. Unlike Obama, McCain has never made a priority of calling for increased regulation on investment firms and insurance agencies like AIG. In fact, "he has never departed in any major way from his party's embrace of deregulation and relying more on market forces than on the government to exert discipline," as the New York Times reported on Tuesday. A decade ago, McCain embraced legislation designed "to broadly deregulate the banking and insurance industries, helping to sweep aside a thicket of rules established over decades in favor of a less restricted financial marketplace." Sponsored by top McCain economic advisor Phil Gramm--then a Texas senator--that bill ultimately "helped pave the way for companies such as AIG and Lehman Brothers to become behemoths laden with bad loans and investments," according to the Washington Post. McCain's ideological commitment to deregulation has resurfaced multiple times during the 2008 campaign. Shortly before Bear Stearns collapsed last March, for example, the candidate characterized himself as "fundamentally a deregulator" who's "always for less regulation," and even as AIG faced collapse yesterday, he told Matt Lauer that "we cannot have the taxpayers bail out AIG or anybody else." (He's reversed his position now that the government was forced to commit $85 billion to stop AIG's collapse.)

My point here is not to play a tiresome political game of gotcha. McCain's long-held belief in deregulation is sincere and consistent with his fiscal conservatism. But the current credit crunch has forced him--as both a matter of political survival and rational policymaking--to change his tune. In the past few days, McCain, like Obama, has come out in support of "boosting the regulation of banks, investment banks and other financial institutions" and "tightening the rules on the type and amount of funds financial institutions should hold." On the stump, he's presented himself as a pugilistic populist and champion of regulation who's determined to "take care of the workers" and remedy the "casual oversight by regulatory agencies in Washington" at the root of the current crisis.

The problem is that because this is such a new posture for McCain, he's yet to back it up

[allaboutmary]

Can you explain a little what you don't trust about Obama ?  What is it you thing he is going to do? (couldn't be much worse than Bush) lol  Maybe I could help ease your worries. I've been following him for about 4 years. I was devastated by Bush's re-election and thought I would never pay attention to politics again.
Sorry my spelling ***** and I'm very tired (no nap) lol

[allaboutmary]

I'm clocking out for now, but will be back to work on you two tomorrow.  Have a great night all .

Sweet dreams of Obama president. lmao

[HelpinUtah]

LOL!   Have a good night!  I have a very busy day tomorrow and so I might not be here very often.  I have several cases at court.  But, I'll try to get back on tomorrow night or even for a few minutes tomorrow!  

[lovepat906]

I hope we can change your mind- by focusing on the issues. What issues  do you have concerns about? We will honestly present the Obama side- what he proposes and what his history on the issue is. You can contrast those with Sen. McCain's views and history. That should create a contrast that will clarify your choices.
We  all really need to have what I call a courageous conversation. Stand up to that old devil fear and look the issues soberly and squarely in the eye. Then if .in your heart of hearts, you agree more with the McCain doctrine and history,so be it. You will have at least rationally considered the alternatives.

[lovepat906]

"Now that he's the nominee - they are changing their tune." HelpinUtah
It is not the democrats that have changed their tune- it is McCain,
I agree that there was a time when I seriously believed I could vote for him. But he has abandoned his original positions- sucked up instead of standing up , So now I will cut and paste, a piece written in US News and World Report by a reputable journalist who says it so much better than I can. If you are interested, I posted the authors credentials on allaboutmary's other thread...

John McCain's Journey From Maverick to Liar September 15, 2008  John Aloysius Farrell |
There is a good reason why John McCain's campaign is having some trouble with truthiness these days. McCain's claim to be a "maverick" rests on the liberal positions he took during the days when he openly fought with Republican leaders and the party's conservative base. Because he cannot very well motivate Republicans by reminding them of the times he and they have quarreled, he has to distract and dissemble.
Think of the breaks that McCain has made with Republican orthodoxy. He joined liberal Russ Feingold and pushed for campaign finance reform—conservatives loathed it. He was a soldier with Al Gore in the fight against global warming—the oil industry and free market think tanks opposed them. He and Ted Kennedy helped write a humane immigration bill—the GOP nativists despised him.
He joined with Bob Byrd and six other Democrats to kill a Senate Republican plan to pack the federal judiciary—abortion opponents were furious. He sided with Tom Daschle's Democrats and voted against the Bush tax cuts—the antitax groups fumed. He took on House and Senate Republicans who were trying to bring pork barrel spending to their states—the GOP majority went ballistic. And he aligned himself with liberal groups like People for the American Way, when denouncing the clout of "evil" evangelical political leaders. Actions like these endeared McCain to left-leaning journalists and independent voters who were alarmed by the influence of GOP social and religious conservatives. Even though he was voting with his fellow Republicans 85 percent of the time, McCain built a reputation as a maverick.
Yet, as they prepared for the 2008 presidential race, McCain's advisers knew they would have to woo those conservatives. And so they launched what they called "McCain 2.0" in 2007. When Jon Stewart asked McCain last year, "Are you going into crazy base world?" the celebrated maverick acknowledged, "I'm afraid so." McCain flip-flopped on the Bush tax cuts. He abandoned immigration reform. He reached out to Jerry Falwell and other religious conservatives. It wasn't enough. And so, in a move that even one of his longtime advisers conceded (in a remark captured by an open microphone) was disturbingly "cynical," McCain gave the base Sarah Palin. Palin was a smart pick. She juiced up the faithful and pleased the preachers, and the hoopla of her nomination eclipsed the inherent flaws of McCain 2.0. But time moves on, and the Palin balloon has lost a little air as Americans have discovered she is a politician—given to flip-flops, fibs, abuse of power, wasteful spending, and the rest of the familiar roster of venal sins that come with the territory. The focus is moving back to McCain, who has still not resolved the contradictions of his candidacy.
Is he truly a maverick who, like his self-proclaimed hero, Teddy Roosevelt, will govern as a progressive? Or will he be beholden, as folks like James Dobson and Rush Limbaugh insist, to the conservative base? So far, the main "maverick" actions that McCain has promised as the next Republican president are to trim nonmilitary Democratic spending and continue the Iraq war. You can't get more conventional than that. And even that message has been somewhat undermined by disclosures that Palin was a champion of those costly federal earmark projects she has lobbied for in Alaska—where, you know, you can see Russia. At this point, McCain has taken the obvious way out—launching a series of distracting attacks on Barack Obama, with slim regard for truth.
The ads have spurred a backlash, the consequences (or lack) of which may well decide the election. For 18 months, Obama has wagered all his chips on the (quaint? idealistic? brilliant?) idea that the American people are tired of the same old sleazy and divisive politics. McCain has now chosen to bet against him.
And we are the cards.

[lovepat906]

"If the democrats are so much better than why are things worse since the dems took over congress two years ago?  " HelpinUtah

The democrats, unfortunately, have a very slim majority. So the republicans have filibustered, blocked or vetoed everything they have tried to do. The gridlock that has their approval ratings so low has been caused by lock step republican politics,Remember that almost half of the folks in a congress that is so poorly thought of are republicans.

[lovepat906]

I am sorry for " talking" so much this evening but my belief in spreading the truth is demanding that I respond to some of these things:

"I guess when I hear Obama apologize to other countries that we don't learn their language before we go to visit their countries, it makes me sick."

How many times have we heard people in this country complain loudly about foreigners coming to our country and not speaking English? It is respectful to abide by the house rules when you are a visitor. Since when is respect for others a bad thing?


"While on the campaign trail he chose to speak in Germany - WHAT!  What does that have to do with us voting over here! "

In the past 8 years our relationship and reputation with other nations has been horribly mangled. Obama's trip was a first attempt to rebuild those damaged bridges. We need strong allies if we are ever to effectively deal with global terrorism. The reponse of the German citizenry was a testimonial to his statesmanship.

"He has made comments that one of the reasons he won't put his hand over his heart during the national anthem is that the words are divisive and make others feel bad!"

An outright lie. Please go to snopes.com or factcheck.org - both non-partisan reputable sources- and check these ugly stories out before you spread them further. You will never find documentation. It is flat out untrue.

[mimi1313]

Please don't apologize. I love to learn and am absorbing as much of this as possible. There have been so many comments I just want to make sense of them. I like to have all the facts and its hard to decipher a lot of them, hence the reason for the post. (My degree is in Biology which is much more cut and dry than politics. LOL

Any facts about his policies and what he stands for. I want to be as well informed as I can.
I think this can be educational for all and I am well educated enough (in some areas) to know that things can alwasys evolve, including my mindset on who I am voting for.

My major issue is abortion. I am prochoice. And also stem cell research. We are so limited and other countries are way ahead of us in this area.

So keep talking, I'm listening.

Melissa

[sterling_silver]

Pretty clear cut on your 2 top issues.
PRO CHOICE
McCain=Pro Life
Palin= Pro Life even in the case of rape and incest.No birth control.Kinda like forced pregnancy

Obama= Pro Choice
Biden= Pro Choice

Stem Cell Research
McCain= Adult Stem Cell Research only.(as of today, he has flip/flopped)
Palin = Forget it. Any Type

Obama= Adult and Embryonic Stem Cell Research
Biden = Adult and Embryonic Stem Cell Research
The Democrats have tried to push through funding for Embryonic Stem Cell Research.
It passed in  The House and Senate...........Bush vetoed it.

[Savas]

I saw one thing that caught my eye here; sterling_silver commented that despite being Pro-Life she's voting the democratic ticket because of the economic issues facing this country.

I sincerely hope many people are taking this view and voting on relevant issues; issues like abortion won't really mean much in a bankrupt country. Her statement gives me hope for America.

I can't give any specific reasons for voting for the democrats based on their actions politically in the past decade...because they haven't had a sufficient power base to make any serious impact on the country.

But I can give reasons to NOT vote republican.

A: Fear  - The republican party has fostered an enviornment of fear for the past decade. It is their meat and wine with which they spoon feed the masses. What sort of a government uses fear as the driving force behind controlling it's people and directing the course of a nation?

Fear is a destructive force. The common response to fear is violence, a lashing out at all around you.
Is this really the type of administration we wish to continue supporting?

(I have a  bet with a friend that in the next two months there will be an announcement of some majority terrorist security threat to the U.S.narrowly avoided due to the efforts of homeland security in an attempt to sway the upcoming election. This is dependent on the numbers in the polls, mind you. If McCain is not clearly ahead, I'm sure it will happen).

In doing this, they will generate fear and hope to cause the masses to run like lemmings to the polling booths and vote for McCain. Winning an election by fear. Such a sad gambit, really.

2nd, our rights as citizens. The Republican party has effectively nullified the Constitution of the United States and stripped its citizens of most of their rights.

I CANNOT in good faith support any political party whose main goal is to undermine and destroy what made this country great.  This is EXACTLY what the Republican party has done. How can ANYONE, who calls themselves an American...support such a party's action?!?!

The democrats may not be perfect...but at least they haven't commited the moral crimes listed above. I'd say that gives them the right and impetus to take a turn in office and see what they can do, for ill or good.

[sadinmichigan]

heres my 2 cents..I think they all suck..and no president will be able to undo the damge that has been done by not only Bush..but the rest of them...I actually don't know if i will vote..for the first time..it's a lose lose situation..

no hate mail please..it's my opinion..

[allaboutmary]

Unfortunatley, many people feel the same way as you. We've been chewed-up and spit out by our government in recent years. People have lost all hopes of having honest people in Washington.  I hope a politician comes along in the future that returns some hope to you. For me it was Obama.

[allaboutmary]

Sterling, lovepat & Savas,
Thank you so much for helping me out here !   I'm not very good at putting my thoughts on paper. I was great in math, but lacked interest in spelling and gramar. (and where the heck is my spell check on this new computer !)   Anyway , love your posts. Please keep posting.

[flmagi]

Great posting going on here.

Savas, LOL,  Mary & I have talked many times about the probability of a thwarted terrorist threat coming up in Oct. or early Nov. if McCain is showing to low in the polls. I would not be surprised if somehow McCain single handily catches Bin Laden right before election day. Perhaps they're already holding him out at Guantanamo, waiting for the Big Oct. surprise Bush talked about. (lol,   kidding...I think).
MiMi,  So happy to see that you're opened mined and willing to make your decision based on facts. I do hope you change to Obama, so that Womans Rights aren't put in jepardy. Woman have fought to hard and long, and indured alot of **** for these rights to be dismissed. The ramifications of having womens rights taken away and like Sterling said, "forced pregnancies", would have such a deep reaching effect, it would throw woman back at least 50 years. This surely can't be allowed to happen.

LOL, and besides all that, MiMI, I named my dog after you!! And she's the best!!! lol

[allaboutmary]

McCain voted no on reducing oil usage by 40% by 2025. His buddies are Bush's buddies and it's all about oil.

McCain voted no on repealing tax subsidy for corporations sending jobs overseas. Where have all the jobs gone ?  No tax breaks should be given for sending jobs out of this country. McCain is big business and not for the middle class.  I myself used to be middle class. I would now be considered poverty. If McCain gets elected, I will probably be voting from a refridgerator box in the next election. lol

McCain voted no on the benefit package for our veterans !  All this guy talks about is war & soldiers, then he votes against a college education for them.  That alone is a reason for me not to vote for him.  He was afraid it would keep soldiers from re-enlisting.  He wants to keep these guys down so they need to stay.  I'm sorry but anyone that risks thier life for our country for 4 years deserves so much, and he won't even give them that. Luckily, it got passed without him.
In January of this year, I repeat this year,  McCain said ....We are better off than we were in 2000.  This guy is not in touch with reality. This week he said.....the fundamentals of our economy are sound. OMG  that was this week ! His failure to see what a mess we are in is just freaking amazing !

[allaboutmary]

Mimi............Before I get into more post's, I just wanted to tell you how much I respect you for keeping an open mind and having the desire to learn all you can before you vote. Even if I fail at changing your mind, your tops in my book girl !

[lovepat906]

I echo aamary's sentiments.and savas. and sterling.... Mimi you are showing great responsibility by taking a real look at the issues. I am generally pleased with the respect, intelligence and  care that have been demonstrated here by so many. We have a short window to continue this courageous conversation in all areas of our lives. I know that many like Sad are disgusted with the system. We can't give up on our America- no matter what. It's just like fighting an addiction,really. You keep putting one foot in front of the other- depite the odds and the setbacks. It is the only way to make progress- no matter how small. Keep the faith, spread the truth. lovepat

[flmagi]

Here are some of my views on the McCain campaign, just my views. I'll try to keep it nice.
When McCain was first nominated, he stood for absolutely no change from the Bush policies. When he saw Obama's "Change" slogan working for Obama, McCain switched to a "Change" slogan, although he couldn't back it up with what kind of change.  When Obama didn't pick Hillary as his VP, McCain rushed in and got himself a woman. He absorbed Palins reformer policy as his own and pleased all those extreme conservatives.All of Palin's advisors and trainers (fact),are from the Bush camp.  McCain seems to be looking to Palin for leadership, when it should be the other way around. And he still hasn't broken from the failed Bush policies. McCain has repeated 16 times in the past 6 months or so, "the economy is fundamentally sound", (no, he wasn't talking about the workers), when it is obvious to everyone but McCain that the US is in deep do-do. He said the government absolutely shouldn't bail out AIG, then he changes his mind, after they do it. He wants more de-regulation, then he wants more regulation. Obama takes on the saying of "enough is enough", McCain sees that people like that, so he takes that on too.  I see McCain looking for leadership from everyone but himself. He seems confused as to what he stands for or what to say, until someone else shows him the way. He says things that are obviously not true then tries to cover his a$$ with mumbo jumbo. The only constants I have seen with McCain are he agrees with Bush policies, and he likes war. He says he's a maverick...maybe he was in his younger years. I guess I could say my 82 yr. old slightly senile mother is a maverick, when she says things that don't apply to the current situation, seems confused, makes rash decisions and fights against what is best for everyone.
McCains days for leadership have passed. I actually feel bad for the guy. I think he has gotten himself way over his head and is getting confused.
Just the way I see it.

[mimi1313]

Thank you all so much for your posts. I think we should always have an open mind in any situation and this is no different.

I am still processing this. I like to read something over and over and get a true understanding of it and I really appreciate you all helping with this, You don't have to but  you have such a strong belief system that you are. And everyone is being so respectful so thank you!

[VicUser]

I have read this thread twice and have some questions about comments made. I have not made up my mind if I will vote and if I do who to vote for. I think that this year it is picking the better of two bad candidates. I would appreciate some follow up to help me understand. Following are statements made in this thread that I don’t understand.

Sterling - Bush sold our country to China - How did he do this?

Mary - Take his plan to provide 10 million middle-class homeowners 10 percent off their interest rate through a universal mortgage tax credit  – What does he consider middle class and what does a tax credit get someone? Right now if you can itemize, you can deduct your mortgage interest from your taxes.

Sterling - Palin= Pro Life even in the case of rape and incest. No birth control. Kinda like forced pregnancy. I know she is pro-life, but where are her comments to back up your claims. I would be interested to read it.  

Savas - The Republican party has effectively nullified the Constitution of the United States and stripped its citizens of most of their rights. – How so, please give examples.

[newgirl2708]

Bush has only veto'd federal spending for the stem cell research...

[flmagi]

I'm sure when Sterling comes on, he'll tell you alot more about the US being in debt to China, but in the mean time, here's one of the many articles about money borrowed from China.

Debt Weakens U.S. Hand on China
Democratic Sen. Evan Bayh Sounds Alarm on Debt and Dependency

RSS In addition to its negative impact on trade, Bayh worries that U.S. indebtedness to China has a harmful impact on the administration's ability to "talk tough" with China about foreign policy issues.

"How can we talk tough with China about Iran when they hold so much of our debt?" Bayh told ABC News.

Mutual self-interest keeps the Chinese buying U.S. debt. By pegging its currency to the U.S. dollar, China has achieved internal monetary stability. The United States, in turn, has received the money it needs to cover its savings deficiency.


China Could Make U.S. Economy Suffer
Bayh worries, however, that the United States would suffer if China's central bank suddenly decided to stop lending America money.

Without the transfer of money from high-saving China to the low-saving United States, America would suffer a credit crunch; interest rates would increase, choking off residential and industrial investment.

To illustrate the risks the United States faces from its indebtedness to Asian central banks, Bayh points to the way the U.S. dollar began to go into a "free fall" last year when Japan's prime minister suggested that it might be time for Japan to start diversifying its dollar-denominated assets.

In a Senate floor speech timed with his decision to put the nomination of Rob Portman as U.S. trade representative on hold last year, Bayh said, "It is not a sign of strength, it is not a sign of independence, it is not a sign of security when something as fundamental as the value of our money can be undermined by a slip of the tongue or a premeditated statement or a rumor sweeping a foreign capital."

"That is not the sign of a great nation," the Indiana Democrat continued, "It is the sign of dependency, of weakness."

[flmagi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin
Palin has called herself "as pro-life as any candidate can be,"[175] has called abortion an "atrocity,"[176] and supports a constitutional amendment to make abortion illegal in all cases, including rape and incest"[177][178][179] except when there's "a doctor's determination that the mother's life would end if the pregnancy

[allaboutmary]

With the prices going up, up for everything even my accountant charged 100 bucks more than he did last year. So many people out there don't itemize their taxes. Half the time the cost of the accountant cancells out what they save you.  So, I feel this is a great idea Obama has.....(cut&paste from his site)
Create a Universal Mortgage Credit: Obama and Biden will create a 10 percent universal mortgage credit to provide homeowners who do not itemize tax relief. This credit will provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.
Obama considers anyone making less than 250,000 to be middle class. So, if you make more than that your taxes will go up. They will go up to what you were paying during the Clinton admistration.
I'm not sure I understand your last question. What does a tax credit get you ?  It gets me more money. lol  
I love the fact that you too are open minded and willing to listen to all sides !
What a great group we have here!  Makes a girl proud !

[allaboutmary]

100,000 voters from Iowa changed from republican to democrat this year.  

I guess this is pointless information, must be time for my nap. lol

[mimi1313]

An important reason that I'm fact finding as I'll call it, is Palin scares me. She is so far to the right. Why can't we have a Republican Party, a Democratic Party and a Moderate Party?

With the announcement of Palin being picked for VP all attention has been focused on her instead of any of the agendas of the Presidential nominees. Now it is starting to fade but I question the timing of the announcement and the pick itself.

Yes Mary, I question the Republican party's motives. I question pretty much everything which really annoys my husband!

But I saw that Lynn De Rothschild(sp)  a member of the DNC is voting for McCain. Thsi sis why everything is so murky for me!

[flmagi]

MiMi,
I saw the Rothchild interview yesterday on CNN and it' sounded like she just doesn't like Obama....personality not issues. The interviewer almost got into it with her because of that.  You could probably go to the CNN site and see the interview.

[HelpinUtah]

For me, this is a year from Hell when to comes to the election.  I feel like I have no voice.  So far, nobody has convinced me to vote for Obama.  I wish I had more time today to go into greater details.  I promise I will this weekend with some of my own ideas and facts.  But, like I've said before I'm no McCain fan either.  I'm extremely disillusioned this year!!!  Apart of me thinks it doesn't really matter who I vote for because I think they'll both mess us up!!!  Our politicians today seem to be more for themselves than the American people!!!

[mimi1313]

Magi, I saw it on Fox news so I saw a completely different side of course. Why are there no unbiased news stations?

Helpinutah, I understand, I really do.

Ironically as I'm posting this there is a big ad saying "Over for Obama"? Its a google ad.

I really believe there are people that won't allow Obama to be elected. I'm not a huge Bush fan but honestly how did he get elected? I think there are powerful people who will put who they want in office. And we the people do not have a say. My mother has said that for years and I honestly wonder if if she's right. I'm starting to feel disillusioned too Utah.

[dj606]

ok so this is the deal do you complain about high gas prices health care etc... if you would like to see 4 more years of this garbage vote mccain 2008. remember he has voted 90% of the time with bush so it will be gas prices at $5.00 a gallon health care you'll get a $5000 dollar check for health care but i hope your child doesn't break their leg because it cost my brother over $10,000 to fix his leg mess so if this sounds like a great way to live vote mccain 2008

[VicUser]

Why are we in debt to China? Why is so much of the goods we buy made there now?

From the same article about Sarah Palin - She supports comprehensive sex education in schools and supports birth control use.[178]

Turbo tax only cost about $40 and does a real good job even for small businesses. Really simple to use, so that is not an excuse in my book.  Are you sure it gets you more money?

[allaboutmary]

Vic ......You are asuming those people own and know how to use a computer. John McCain for one ! lol   I know it's hard to believe, but some people are selling everything they own to pay their mortgage and buy groceries. There are people out there that can barely fill out an E-Z.  It shouldn't be that way, but it's only going to get worse because people can't afford a decent education.  

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

I have actually considered not voting this year also - and its the first time that I have ever felt this way ..............were is Thomas Jefferson when you need him?

[HelpinUtah]

I have several Republican friends who said they are voting for Obama - but not because they like him as President, but because they want the Democrats to mess up so badly that in four years the Republicans will be back in office.  How twisted is that?

[allaboutmary]

I live in Florida surround by elderly people that own homes. They wouldn't know how to turn on a computer. They don't have enough money now to buy the perscription drugs they need. My mother gets 1500 a month between social security and her retirement from AT&T she spend almost 600 a month on medication.  She's lucky she has children. I don't and I worry.  My mother was a widower with 4 children at the age of 35. She has done all the right things. She busted her *** all her life. She worked every hour she possibly could. I'm telling you this because you seem to always come back with work harder or longer.
People that have worked all their lives are now homeless. One illness or job loss and they loose everything.

[allaboutmary]

That is twisted. How could it get more screwed up than the past 8 years.

[allaboutmary]

De Rothschild is one person.  Millions, seriously millions have changed this year from life long republicans to democrat.  It's just she is well known.

They didn't like her anyway.  hahahahahah

[allaboutmary]

I'm going to check into Vote-match for you. They had it for the primaries, not sure if they still have it.  It's take about 20 minutes. It asks you how you feel about certain issues and then matches you with a canidate. I really think this would be good for you. From every thing your saying it sounds if your more democrat then republican. Probably like me Independent voting dem this year.

[HelpinUtah]

Everyone:
I'm not putting you guys off by giving you my opinions or facts that I have found against Obama, but I've been going through a rough couple days and my mind hasn't been all that clear.  I want to be able to put together my thoughts in a straight forward way without babbling, like I have above.  But, my mind is much clearer today being on Day 15 and my depression is less.  So, by the weekend, I'll be sending you lots of stuff!!!  

I have to say that I respect everyone of you for looking up and finding information to support your views.  I respect each view.  That's what America is all about!  Thanks for making us think!!!

[VicUser]

two words, Fair Tax. It is simple and fair read the book. Too bad Obama or McCain didn't adopt it.

I agree that something needs to be done for the elderly that needs help. Medication cost are way higher than we all think they should be and I don't understand why you can buy the same meds in Canada or Mexico at a fraction of the cost.

[mimi1313]

Mary,

I definitely want to see that. And I'll post my results. Thank you for being so helpful in giving me an oppurtunity to see another side. I appreciate that.

Melissa

[HelpinUtah]

I'd like to take that test too.  I took one a couple years ago and they put me in the Libertarian group.  It would be interesting to see where I am now!

[allaboutmary]

Omg I just took the vote-match and it came up Hillary..........Nauty is gonna be mad. lol
I tested it to see if it was still up and running and it is, but it has all the canidates. So you might not come up with Obama or McCain.  It will still give you a good idea of where you stand.
IMPORTANT..... make sure you click on the highlighted question. It will give you in detail what each vote suggests. It's a much shorter version of the one I took last year.
www.speakout.com/VoteMatch/quiz.asp?quiz=Pres2008

[mimi1313]

You're right, Nauty will have a field day with that one!


Mine was Michael Peroutka of the Constitution party. **** Cheney was second. Now I'm even more confused.

[HelpinUtah]

Mary,
It gave me Gary Nolan, the Libertarian candidate. Well, at least I know that the test I took before must have been accurate!  LOL!  But, the next choice was a democrat, Joe Lieberman!  I'm not surprised I do like Joe Lieberman.  

[allaboutmary]

LMAO  Who are those guys ? lol I've never heard of them. ............and Cheney omg too funny.  Remember I said people are inherintley good .......all but **** Cheney....lol   that man is evil. lol  
I'm so sorry the test confused you more.  It must be an old test or something.

[HelpinUtah]

Mary:

Cheney was down on the list for me and I was NOT happy about it.  I do not care for him.  For some reason I liked him when he was with George Bush (#1) during the first Gulf war but since then I've grown to dislike him.  I agree with you!!!  LOL!!!!

[allaboutmary]

The other day I was talking to one of my elderly neihbors. They were trying to get me to referr their son and somehow we got into politics. The old man starts telling me how Obama is a muslim. I was furious( inside )!  I tried to deal with it as calmly as possible. Just said nicely that's not true and you know it. I actually wanted to beat the old man up. lol     So tonight Magi and I are going to the opening of the Obama office. I will be picking up about 50 Obama yard signs. I can't wait to see my neighbors face when he walks the dog tomorrow. LMAO

[HelpinUtah]

I've heard that he was a Muslin too. But, I've also listened to several talk radio programs and every one of them have stated that it's a flat out lie, including the right wingers.  I think because his stepfather was Muslim and sent him to that private school, people have it in their head he is a sleeper.  I don't think so - at least if he becomes President, I hope not!!!  LOL!!!!

[allaboutmary]

No, he is definatley not a muslim.  

[HelpinUtah]

I do want to say that if he was a Muslim, that in itself would not be a problem for me.  It would be if he was an extremist (terrorist sleeper! LOL!!!) - then I'd have a problem.  Because religion shouldn't matter when it comes to our political leaders as long as they do not mix the two!  If that makes sense.

[allaboutmary]

Yeah I know what you mean.  I think were all a little leary since 9/11.

[lovepat906]

Now HERE is a maverick!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_el_pr/hagel_palin

Utah- I am sorry that you have been having such a rough time. Keep the faith- it will get better. I will send some positive energy your way- no matter what our politics we are all in this together- lovepat

[lovepat906]

Getting to know Barack- what's not to love?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61y3W5CvQYs

[paul300]

for god sake he's not muslim! this sort of talk makes the right look as loony as the left. ;-) yes, he only has two years experience in the senate (two on the road.) more passes than decisions on voting, never created any significant legislation, doesn't have any background in corporate industry. he is intelligent, articulate and formidable. he also has a pattern of failing to admit faults or mistakes and listened to a caustic-racist-reverend for many years and only to throw him under the bus when it threatened his path to the white house. but he is not muslim. ;-) oh but he is a socialist. :-D

[sterling_silver]

Here you go. Palin is radical. Of course, I would not be surprised if she becomes pro choice tomorrow.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/8/31/134127/530

You call me unarmed, and I have to explain how much money we owe China. The main reason we bailed out AIG, is because they insure our debt to China. That's right!!! We borrow money from China and then China buy's an insurance policy from AIG to insure the debt.If we let AIG fail. No more selling China our weak dollar.
All we can do to China, is say you can't sell your stuff here. Then what would we do?
We don't make anything here anymore.What do we make here? Ford and Chevy, and that's about it. Our country is all huge corporations that ship jobs over seas. It is my opinion that this is the Republican way. That's what I meant when I said we sold our country to China. They have more power over us then you want to believe.
If you tie in McCain singing Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran. And China supports Iran. What a mess. I trust Obama much more to change things then I do McCain. Everything going on now, is Senator John McCain Policy.

[paul300]

so what should Obama do about China? please be specific. bring back the commodity jobs and pay them $15-$20/hr? no trading w the biggest consumer anymore? please explain.

[lovepat906]

Here's Obama's economic plan- in detail for all to read and analyze carefully. There is alot of meat on this bone- LOL. If you don't like it-  don't vote for him. Become informed- it's the only way to vote. Spread the truth. Keep the faith

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/economyvideo

And paul- On whos' watch have the major financial institutions in our country been effectively NATIONALIZED?  And who  has voted with him 90% of the time? And OBAMA's a socialist? Ironic ain't it?

[sterling_silver]

Well Paul. If we did not go to this war based on George Bush Lies that would have saved over a trillion dollars that we borrowed from China. If we get the hell out of there, we wont have to borrow that money from China. And if you go read Obamas web site, you can see his ideas on creating more jobs and manufacturing more of our own goods.
I would copy and past it here for you, but I know you hate that.

[lovepat906]

Thanks for coming back into the debate! It is good to look at all sides of this elephant and/or donkey if you prefer.

[paul300]

So your willing to pay two/three times as much for basic commodity products if they are made here in the US? Unskilled manufacturing jobs in the US is over. Long as we are global economy, there are going to be countries willing to work for less. Besides China can be our biggest customer for the things we make. So you want to become a closed country? Just trying to understand what you think will happen. I read Obama's web site, and he claims to bring back the good ole days of manufacturing. To me thats disingenuous to his supporters. I truly believe he thinks he can do it. But it ain't gonna happen. The genie is out of the bottle,

[paul300]

i saw the youtube segment, i wanted to scream group hug! :-)

[sterling_silver]

China can become our biggest customer for our goods made here? Really? Last time I checked. China charges the USA a minimum of an 18% Tariff on anything we ship there. We charge them 3%.  

[lovepat906]

C'mon, Paul- admit it - You love you some huggin'!
The economic problems are complex. But there has got to be a happy medium. Yes manufacturing jobs- but maybe in the alternataive energy sector. I dare say there are at least 600,000 recently unemployed people who would  be happy to work for a living wage. If paying the workers a living wage means a smaller profit margin for the CEOs- so be it. Solutions to these problems will take a keen, inquiring mind  not just the same ol'same ol'. Somebody once said that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is a sure sign of insanity. Let's get off the dead horse- ol'Stewball ain't taking us anywhere. RIP. ( and we can hug better when our feet are on the ground ♥ )

[lovepat906]

And I did NOT call McCain a dead horse!

[paul300]

Complex it is, and the politicians try to make simple statements about the problems we face (both sides.) The alternative energy sector will create some high-tech jobs, thats expected. People like to beat up CEO's. Paying them less is not going to make a difference with large corporations. Paying them like the Fannie debacle is a crime.

The economy is simple and complex. The simple side tells us that in free global economy, people will get paid for the worth of their respective talent based on demand. Obama wants to create jobs via government sponsored programs. Fine. To finance this he will tax existing corporations and thus they will either invest in other countries and/or reduce local investments and thus jobs. So will it work? Who knows. I don't think so.

MaCain, if he does his job well, will cut taxes for ALL corporations, LLCs, S-corps, and will result in them becoming more competitive with more money to reinvest and thus creating more jobs--growth.

All that being said, the ugly Iraq war caused us to rack up spending, (lost many priceless lives) and managed to get the country in a very divided state. So. If you believe Obama and for bigger government that will solve our problems, don't mind moving toward a socialistic state, hes your man. If you want smaller government, hands off, hopefully with some measures that will help the many in need of health care and re-education, free market with some regulation, hes your guy.

Hey, I'm a loven huggen type of guy...

[Savas]

Vicuser, one aspect to Bush's selling us out to China is the following;

China has purchased billions of dollars in US treasury bills/bonds. What does this means to us?

China could quite easily call in the debt on them at any given time. The end result would be economic disaster for the US. In essence, it would be a form of economic warfare. given the present situation, the US would lose such a war...unquestionably. The damage to our economy would be catastrophic to say the least, making the present economic situation look like a picnic in the park.

Bush via the republican party allowed this irresponsibility to happen and has essentially cut off the Gonads of America and handed them to China. It's hard to negotiate from a position of power with a country that can essentially evict you from your home soil due to unpaid debts. :-/

As to the constitutional issue...

The passing of the Patriot Act represented a fatal blow to our constitutional rights. Now, I'll be fare here, there were some questionable statutes and laws passed during the Clinton years which were, as far as constitutuonal infringements go... where ...well...questionable. :)

But they were minor issues that have come up on and off since the 1790's, the sort of thing that gets lobbied through and struck down at later times.

But the Patriot Act was the beginning of the end.

The 4th Amendment states;

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or thing to be seized."

The patriot act violates this, perhaps one of our most important rights, using the vague definition of "domestic terrorism".

The patriot act gives our government the right to come into anyones home (YOUR home) at a moments notice, without probable cause and search, seize and arrest anyone without a warrant.

It ALSO gives government the right to deprive anyone of the particulars of due process. ie; legal representation, the right to a fair and speedy trial, the right to a trial by jury, as well as the right to "safe and sane imprisonment (ie; torture is now allowed).

With the passing of this one act, Bush set this country back to prior to the declaration of independence, when we were shouting for "No Taxation without Representation!!!" The colonials had NONE of the rights listed in the constitution, and were incensed by it (...perhaps we should declare allegiance to Britannia again???)

There's a reason Bush is compared to Hitler. Frankly, some of the speechs/excuses that Bush gives are almost word for word what Hitler said as leader of the National Socialist Party when stating that the need for his new laws and regulations were neccessary to protect against communism (for us, terrorism).

The Patriot Act is republican party POLICY. McCain from what I've seen, FULLY supports it.  It is a violation of the constitution, has been found to be so, yet Bush/McCain still fight for the Imperial Powers that it gives/ will give them.

[allaboutmary]

Paul....The tax cuts that you say McCain is going to give you, we have those now. He will just continue the taxes Bush has. So, tell me where are all those jobs these tax cuts have created. The bottom line here is if you like what is going on in this country now, then you will love a McCain administration.
I'm not trying to be nasty, but if you think this country is doing well, your either completely out of touch, or a bit insane.
I know the republicans are for smaller government and it's a great idea in theory. The government doesn't seem to be much smaller under Bush. Oh, sure they cut some regulations.....like the one that's causing all these huge companies to go belly up.

[VicUser]

Good points I appreciate the time and thought you put in to your response, great food for thought. Aren’t US treasury bills/bonds up for sale to anyone that wants to buy them? Where did China get all of their money to invest? If China did call in the debt, i.e. sell the bonds what would that do to their income revenue from the people here in the US. Why do we keep buying goods made in China and forcing plant closings here and sending the jobs over there? Did the whole selling out of America happen in the last 8 years? Has the Senate and Congress done anything to stop it in the past two years?

The Patriot act! From what I have heard you are correct with what you have said. I am ignorant to what it says verbatim and I do not like having my freedoms taken away. However, did you know that you can be held in jail by the grand jury for an unlimited amount of time without charges being pressed against you? This is not something new, I remember talking about it in government class in high school several decades ago. The IRS can invade you as well seizing your records, bank accounts and property, where is the outrage there? Why aren’t we screaming for the “Fair Tax” and eliminating the IRS as we see it today?

I think the terrorist have won the battle on disrupting our lives, look at the screening at airports, 70 year old grandmas can be strip searched because they set off the metal detectors, some common sense needs you be used. What if the Bush administration did nothing? What if after 9/11 all was let status quo and another attack happened?

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like anyone taking away our rights that the founding fathers wrote into the constitution. There are several things in the constitution that are under attack that for the most part, we the people are just sitting back and letting happen. We are allowing the judges to legislate from the bench and so they are becoming a new form of law makers. I don’t think that is their purpose and it needs to be stopped, I am not sure either candidate has addressed this issue.

[VicUser]

Well, I think you didn’t bother to read your own reference very well, but that doesn’t surprise me. Here is a quote taken your reference.

I had written a diary at DailyKos (none / 0)
with the assumption Palin was anti-birth control. I got half way through writing it and did research and found somewhere that Palin is actually pro-birth control, which sort of shot down the premise of my diary.


I have been reading all I can find about AIG and nowhere can I find a reference to AIG insuring the debt the US has to the Chinese, if you have a legitimate reference I would be interested in reading it.

If you would bother reading you would find that small enterprises account for 52 percent of all U.S. workers, according to the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA). So much for your big business theory!

[paul300]

The country is in a major bump. Raising taxes now will sink this country fast. Obama's naiveness responded after his massive team of economic advisors told him to trim back his ideas during the election. Not out of touch, not crazy. I've seen many part of the world  and we still have it made well beyond what other countries are doing. This economic issue is very complex and the blame is enough to go around.

Please answer this with no reference to McCain and the past. Do you feel Obama's structure and framework follow the path of Socialism? Yes or No.

[allaboutmary]

Probably a touch more than the other canidate, but no I do not.

[allaboutmary]

Do you consider France, Canada or England socialist countries ? I'm not being a smart *** here...I really don't know much about how these countries are set up, but only know they have universal healthcare.
I have heard France's citizens have free healthcare, college. even day care.  They say if you add up what we pay for these things plus our taxes, we pay much more. Their taxes are high but they don't have the other exspenses. This personally doesn't sound too bad to me. I guess I am for a touch of socialism.

[flmagi]

When paying my taxes at the end of the year, I would like to decide where my hard earned tax money goes (I know thats an impossible pipe dream). I would rather my money go to health care for all, alternate fuel programs,education and helping americans in need. Not to wars made from lies, bailing out big bussiness, oil companies etc.  Is this socialism?  There will always be the same amount of government, republican or democrat. The only difference is where the focus of that government is.

[Savas]

Well, my answer on China was to some degree an oversimplification of the whole situation.
China is in a period of industrial growth right now. In about 50 years, if they continue at this rate, they'll likely be a/the top economic power in the world. They're investing in one of their greatest resources; manpower (there's ALOT of Chinese in China).  

They've already generated a lot of additional income from just what they've done in the last 20-30 years. They're actually the country we SHOULD be keeping an eye on that could challenge the US for preeminence in the world community in the not to distant future. I'd guess that purchasing bills/bonds is part of that gradual move towards economic domination.

In all reality they won't call in the debt. That would cause initial financial losses and disruption to the economic community that no one really wants right now. The US economy is still in a position to have a significant incidental effect on the rest of the world for good or bad.

BUT... they will use it as a velvet covered fist to manipulate US policies on a variety of issues, in all areas of diplomacy and business.
----
Grand juries, held over for contempt of court... those are special situations that can only be applied in specific circumstances. And you still have access to your legal counsel. true, it's a loophole in the system that can keep you locked up indefinitely, but a judge has to have "just cause" to apply such action.

The patriot act can be used by ANYONE in law enforcement, from the highest judge to the lowliest police officer. It's a carte blanche application of totalitarian power.

The police can break down you door, as your typing your response, without a warrant, arrest you, and whisk you to a "special detention facility". They don't have to tell you why,  they can deny you ANY outside communications to family or legal counsel. They can keep you locked up for YEARS without giving any real reason.

All under the guise of suspicion of "domestic terrorism". Don't be so sure it can't happen. There are numerous incidences of use of the patriot act to arrest and hold drug users/dealers. After all, it's called "The war on drugs" for a reason, and drug sales are often considered a potential threat to domestic security.

And you know why we're all on this forum...eh? ;)

[flmagi]

I'm just talking to myself here....we now have mimi1313.....the mimi, we're try to get on the Obama side.......and  mimi170...she's new, don't know yet who she's voteing for, but I'm sure we'll find out soon.lol

[mimi1313]

I know I can't believe there's another Mimi! I thought I was special, oh well...

[VicUser]

You are, and will always be, special

[paul300]

>>>Do you consider France, Canada or England socialist countries ?
Of course I do. I suggest living in England for a couple of years and start your small business. Then you may reconsider what socialism is...

>>> Probably a touch more than the other canidate, but no I do not
Than McCain?? huh?

[allaboutmary]

You said not to refer to mcCain. lol so I left his name out.

[paul300]

;-)

[newgirl2708]

We are the world....We are the children...'come on everybody...hold hands...sway with me once more...sing along...sway...that's it...We Are the World...We Are the Children....gooood!!! Keep it up...'come on..can't hear you...

[toxictome]

LOL...always keeping the peace....how are you?

[allaboutmary]

Swaying and singing with newgirl.  

Magi was really drunk a long time ago and did that song on kareokee (sp)  Wish I had it on video. lol

[paul300]

kumbaya my lord, kumbaya....raise my taxes my lord and squander away.... socialize medicine my lord, and wait all day.... give to the lazy my lord and steel my pay....

I can hear it too...

[newgirl2708]

ROTFLMAO PAUL!!!!

[newgirl2708]

Toxic...Mary That's IT!!! 'Come on...I see ya smiling...I love this thread...I love when we're adults and can have actual conversations about things...conversations include both sides getting their point across without stiffling the other...healthy dialog...hopefully opening each others eyes up to both sides. Some stuff, I haven't considered some you haven't, therefore sharing of knowledge. Love it.

Back to singing swaying with my Stevie Wonder/Michael Jackson  sun glasses on...We are the world...We are the children.....

[allaboutmary]

I'm with ya newgirl !
I love hearing both sides, even though I feel some are twisted (cough Paul) lol  Just messing with ya.

[lovepat906]

Looks like GEORGE WILL has changed his republican mind. You can check this out yourself on the ABC/ This Week site. I couldn't believe my ears.

For John McCain, the panel discussion on This Week with George Stephanopoulos could not have been more brutal.
Conservative columnist George Will declared that the Senator was decidedly un-presidential is his unexpected call for the firing of SEC Chairman Chris Cox, "I suppose the McCain campaign's hope is that when there's a big crisis, people will go for age and experience," said Will. "The question is, who in this crisis looked more presidential, calm and un-flustered? It wasn't John McCain who, as usual, substituting vehemence for coherence, said 'let's fire somebody.' And picked one of the most experienced and conservative people in the administration, Chris Cox, and for no apparent reason... It was un-presidential behavior by a presidential candidate."

It should be noted that McCain's call for the firing of Cox was dismissed right off the bat, as the president does not have the authority to axe an SEC chairman. The criticisms that Donaldson raised concerned the fact that McCain started the week by touting the fundamentals of the economy, before pivoting into fits of populist mantra and calling for increased regulation of the markets - position at odds with McCain's traditional economic philosophies.The whole, painful, episode crested with Will leveling an even harsher blow:

"John McCain showed his personality this week," said George Will, "and made some of us fearful."

[paul300]

ahh comon now, you lefties like to get angry at the rich and here is a guy that's showing he'll do something about it... passion baby! Or we can take the Obama approach and present his classic overly statesmen demeanor--- the economy will have then been recovered by the time he stops is first statement about the problem! If he even knows what the problem is...
be afraid.... be very afraid... the new Obama campaign slogan. :-)

ps: save us Al Gore.

[lovepat906]

I prefer calm, intelligent,, prudent problem solving myself.But then I am a moderate - not a " lefty". And Obama has actually already put together an impressive group of tried and true economic advisors as well as outlining his major requirements for this economic bailout fiasco.

Here it is transcript  and video :

http://www.wcnc.com/news/ politic...h.9ad4f8ca.html

"First, there must be no blank check when American taxpayers are on the hook for this much money.

Second, taxpayers shouldn’t be spending a dime to reward CEOs on Wall Street.

Third, taxpayers should be protected and should be able to recoup this investment.

Fourth, this plan has to help homeowners stay in their homes.

Fifth, this is a global crisis, and the United States must insist that other nations join us in helping secure the financial markets.

Sixth, we need to start putting in place the rules of the road I’ve been calling for for years to prevent this from ever happening again.

And finally, this plan can’t just be a plan for Wall Street, it has to be a plan for Main Street. We have to come together, as Democrats and Republicans, to pass a stimulus plan that will put money in the pockets of working families, save jobs, and prevent painful budget cuts and tax hikes in our states." Barack Obama


Now YOU c'mon Paul- You guys have been painting this guy up as a wild eyed radical- now he's too cautious? You can't have it both ways- although that seems to be the McCain strategy.
You are telling me that GEORGE WILL - the quintessential conservative  - is wrong in his presidential expectations?
Alice- I think we are through the looking glass...

[paul300]

Haaa, wild meaning his liberal socialistic ways. I believe that "blank check" will get very FAT after the dems try to tack on a stimulus package. I'm not against this sort of idea, but it shouldn't distract congress from getting the real problem resolved first.

[flmagi]

LOL  When McCain flys off the handle and shows his temper, they call it passion.  
If Obama was to react the same way, they'd call it an angry black man. Every time McCain changes his position on issues, they call him a maverick or a reformer. I can't seem to keep up with what he stands for, One day he says one thing, the next day he's trying to cover for what he said the day before and change his stand on the issue of the day. The only thing I haven't heard him change is that he agrees with Bush policies. Standing with Bush has been the only constant with McCain that I have seen. I think McCain is headed for a break down and will be drooling out the side of his mouth by election day.

[HelpinUtah]

I know I said I'd be posting some things this weekend, but guys I've been in bed most of the weekend with a horrible migraine!  I've read some of your posts - good stuff!  I'm so glad we can all share our opinions!!!  WTG!!!

[allaboutmary]

Hope your feeling better. Have you tried that Excedrine Migraine.  Magi gets them and says they help a lot.