To Sub or not to Sub - - That is the question?

[ochooked]

This subject seems to keep popping up every few days as more people read or hear that Suboxone or Subutex may be “The Answer” to their addiction problem.  About two months ago the debate raged pretty intensely between those who were pro or con on Sub.  Most of the regulars on this site know of my negative experience with Sub –as I have tried my best to share it, but I may have, in my zeal, discouraged some from even wanting to quit their DOC.  That certainly was (and is) not my intention.  Let me share that after 3 months of being totally clean, life has not been this good in a very long time.  Sub is a tool that can be successfully used to stop Opiate addiction.  It works very well as almost everyone will agree – the point of disagreement among present and past users is whether it is appropriate for use in all Opiate addictions.   My take on it is that if a person is on Heroin or Methadone, then Suboxone is probably justified.  Perhaps even for those on very heavy doses of Oxycontin -  (over 200 mg/day) may be justified in using Sub to kick the addiction.  However, anything short of that may result in only swapping one drug for another.  Sub is 40 times stronger than Oxy and although it does not give the ‘high’ we were accustomed to, it is more addictive than most people’s DOC.  Knowledge is power – and those who are serious about quitting need to know both sides of this debate.  Again this is only my opinion but using Sub to kick an addiction to a class 3 narcotic like Norco (Vicodin) would be like using an atomic bomb when you only need a hand grenade.   Even heavy doses of Hydrocodone can be tapered and then quit with only a week or two of withdrawal symptoms.  However Sub withdrawals can last for months.  As long as someone is taking Sub they will not have W/D’s but only a very few on this site have testified that they are glad they used Sub for their addiction.  Many have said they felt deceived by the doctor who started them on Sub.  Once hooked on Sub they felt helpless to free themselves from it. To add insult to injury, most have also stated that the doctor started them on a dosage that was far too high – thus increasing their potential addiction.

So, the point I want to make is – Buyer beware – get educated as much as possible – read all you can and then decide how you will get clean.  I encourage all who are considering using Sub to read the post that Avisg put together on the Health Pages --- The title is “Members experiences coming off of Suboxone.”  I do appreciate the posts of those who successfully used Sub to come off of their DOC -  I hope that more people will continue to post their own experience with Sub --- This is a great forum to air all sides of this issue and I hope it will continue.  All the best.

[TysonRed]

Amen!!!Your very respectful person OC, anyone who knows you knows you have nothing but the best intentions for posting your experience with sub. My experience was the same as yours, very intense, but in the end a great lesson in what not to do. I wonder if it was called by its true name(Buprenorphine) if the same amount of people would turn to it. In my opinion the problem is with the marketing, although some people say they had no w/d's, Ive met many more that have questioned whether or not it was appropriate or not. In time I believe we will get a clearer understanding of how and when it should be used, atleast that is my hope. The fact the some people have stated that they suffered no w/d's does show that maybe there is some serious potential to suboxone, but until it becomes less about the money and more about the person, its hard to get any sub doctor to admit that it does have some serious flaws. I think its safe to say, in most cases, suboxone/subutex should be the very last line of defense for opiate detox, after all other methods have failed. Like you said knowledge is power, so this discussion needs to be ongoing and hopefully we can help build a better understanding of the correct schedules and tapering that should be done. Hope everyone is well, very good post oc.

[daisylynn]

I have been on sub for 2yrs. Before that I was using more than 15 bags of heroin a day with no end in sight. I would not go on meth because people told me it was even worse to come off of. That to me was worse than death and kept using for along time because of my fear.
Once I heard about sub, I was sceptical but was assured by my doc that I was going to be okay and to give it a chance. I did and I haven't used heroin since.
Is it a miracle drug? NO. But....it gave me a chance to slow down and and get my mind "right" and to put all that fear into perspective.
I am probably on the slowest ween ever!! I'm okay with that though because when it comes time for the inevitable WDs I'll be ready for them, no matter how easy or hard it is.  
Like you said educate yourself on it.....but don't be scared of it.

[theeagle]

Excellent and well put together discussion of sub - it has its place....but its being touted as a painless withdarawal from a few greedy Docs that are clueless to its reality......

[landbray]

Hi,
As a sub user since 6-24-08 I have felt the best I ever have in 28 years of addication.
Two really important points OC stated: People on hydros, I agree, sub is not the answer. Taper. Short term addication, I don't think sub is right. Really young kids 19's & even 20's to me.(unless there is a true need)  For me and my friends that are on the sub program we all have long history of opiate abuse. heroin, oc's & morphine both in the 400mg a day range. My husband did the methodone route about 9 yrs ago ,practically died in detox but he relapse 10 months later after 4 yrs of the meth only. I am lucky that my insurance pays for our dr ov & the counseling & pills. I pay co pays. Even though I like my dr I am not dumb to the idea that he his making allot of money off of me from insurance companies. If I had to pay cash we would have had to hustle and to me that's the same as scamming for drugs. If you have insurance or state medicaid or ssi call and find out if you are covered for sub. It's always worth a try..I am now learning how not to react like an addict, . The counseling is great. If you are on sub counseling is a must, although I know for some it isn't. I am taking full advantage of it. So is my husband . We go alone or together sometimes if we are having a problem. If someone can't commit to counseling, or meetings, finding a sponser, and be ready to make some major changes in your behavior then suboxine isn't for you. Everyone needs a support system I truely believe. When you don't, relpase is higher chance. In my city, the subs that are on the street are in the hands of young guys and crack heads. If comes from a bad sub doctor, which is the
second thing OC said: they are making allot of money. The dr in our town is just the worst. He forces his patients to go to 12 steps meetings or he won't fill the script. Well that is  against the law b/c it is taking away your freedom of choice of religion. he was told that his patients may attened any DRUG counsleing, not just 12 steps I know some people that reported him to the welfare hotline b/c he is taking money from welfare patients. I know for a fact that he is being investagted but it takes a long time for the whole process to take place.  Hopefully he will lose his right to write sub's. His sub's are the most traded on the street. Plus he gives all his patients adderrol (sp) incase the sub makes them sleepy. Just another way to get more money b/c if subs make you tired, you don't need them. If they make you feel high, you don't need them.  . I am very lucky to have a wonderful sub dr & counsler.that I see every 2 weeks. We are 110% committed to making this work for us. We will deal with tapering when the time comes.I am just  starting to enjoy life and doing things I haven't done in yrs b/c of addication. I have painted 2 rooms, cleaned the carpet, the real way!!  I hope of course that I don't have bad withdrawls , who doesn"t but for now after years of abusing myself I finally feel human so I am staying on it. Plus I had to put my 12 1/2 yr old shepard down 3 weeks ago. I wanted to die,  glad I am on sub b/c if not I'd probably would have od. I am now going through the grieiving process.
I am taking 8mgs a day now. Started on 3 8mgs day then tapered to 2 now i am on one.
I have 2 friends that completed program. One 50 yrs the other 27yrs.Both at the end were taking crumbs 2 times a week till they were gone. Both felt slight "flu symptoms but neither of them got real sick.
great topic,
paaddict

[hopsing94]

I only disagree with one thing oc said. I think using sub for oxy and other opiate addiction is a good tool to stop the routine of addiction. After 5 years of 200mgs a day of hydrocodone and many failed attempts at quitting the sub has helped me. I am productive at my job again. My life at home is normal again. I am living again. Now I know there will be a day that I will have to quit the sub. I will be ready for it. I have broken they cycle of addiction. I take sub once a day the same time I take my synthroid. I have to take synthroid for a hyperactive thyroid. I will have to take it for the rest of my life. So to me, taking the sub is just another daily routine for me. I am tapering very slowly and when I do get to the crumb I will continue to go slowly and hope that my withdrawls will not be to bad. I think alot of it is in the mind. I have tapered off of hydro before and almost had it beat but I was not educated and the cycle of addiction and cravings were to much and relapsed. Now one thing I do heavily agree on is the education. Please know what you are doing before you start suboxone.

[refusingbondage]

Thanks OC good discussion.  Sub is something that really needs to be thought about and learned about before starting.  Ive shared my sub experience on this site many times and I have also been conflicted in what I want to say and how I want to say it and how I actually do say it.  I never ever ever want to discourage someone from quitting drugs.  It is the first most important decision of an addicts life. And I know that for some people it is a very necessary tool.  However I strongly feel that I would not recommend sub for most people.  Maybe I just had a different reaction than most (however reading this site and seeing others experiences coming off subs dictates I am pretty parallel to many).  For me-- now at I think around 70 days off of subs after taking them for over two years--I am still having a really tough time with it.  The initial physical withdrawal was like Ive said many times worse than any other detox I have been through.  While on suboxone I truly got a sense of normal life back.  It did indeed break the cycle of addiction, but it broke the cycle of the old addiction behaviors-- I still could not leave my house for a weekend without knowing I had the sub.  I had to make sure I had it on me for my daily dose etc.  So I did keep some behaviors.  The only difference was it was only once a day.  Not all day long-- so that did give me freedom.  I am now learning that once an addict always an addict.  I never craved on suboxone.  However now being off it, I do find myself craving.  Something.  Anything sometimes.  There is no 'healing' that happens with suboxone.  Not unless you are getting acute therapy and really working on changing your life while on it and if you can do that, most people wouldnt need it.  For me, all it did was inevitably delay withdrawal. Coming off suboxone is still the hardest thing Ive ever done and I suffer even now.  I do not believe I would be as emotionally messed up and depressed had I just stopped painkillers, gotten the therapy and support and not gone on suboxone.  I never expected the depression and emotional dsyphoria I suffer to this day now off suboxone.  In this respect, perhaps I am different.  I know myself and I know I was not like this before.  Ive quit in the past and was not like this.  I was never able to stay clean for long and Im doing it now and I attribute that to support, this forum and owning the fact that I am an addict which I had never done before.  But I dont attribute it to suboxone.  However, in the grand scheme of things, I do have friends who are pretty heavy heroine addicts who I try to talk into sub all the time.  Depressed and dysphoric as I am I am still better off than being in the throes of a heroine addiction.  So for sure, I agree whole-heartedly that sub has its place in the world.. but I dont agree with it being sold as a miracle.  Its not.  I hope and pray all the time for people on it that they have a better experience than me.  Love to all.    

[ochooked]

Thanks for your comments Refusing -- You are one of the real 'Rocks' on the site who have returned to share your experience -  and I am sure you have helped many others who come behind you.  There is no doctor in the world who can say anything more powerful than someone who has actually "been there - done that"  as you have.   I hope you will stay strong -- You are a powerful voice that needs to be heard.  Wish you all the best.  GBU.

[worried878]

great post and ochooked as well as refusingbondage have helped so many with this choice...sub or no sub?  and like mentioned i beleve it has saved many from HIV, jail, institution and death,,as methadone has as well....i would never wish a life of chasing drugs on the street which is really no life at all over choosing a maintenance narcotic...the forum has had so many 60-100 mg hydro users come on and get stuck tho who never tried to quit on their own and were put on 12-  24 mg of sub!...a friend who used to be on this forum for one...she was a 140 mg oxy user and was put on 32 mg of sub by an idot doctor..it almost killed her...she is now on methadone and resigned to her 20-30 mg a day dose...i remeber hopsing from my first days here and he relapsed over and over..now he sounds free..altho on sub he is still free in a way as he is not suffering anymore and beating himself up (dont know but doesnt sound like it hops)......just so much hype with this drug when it was getting popular and people did not know what they were doing...i realize how scary this drug can be..but also how good this drug can be..glad everybody doesnt fight about it anymore!  LOL

[Dog55]

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in. I went to sub in May of this year after getting fed up with my vicodin habit. While it may not rank as bad as some on this site (10-12 7.5mg daily), I knew that if I didn't do something soon, bad things would happen (either jail, homelessness or death). Whatever the outcome, I believe sub can save lives. I certainly hope to get off soon, but it has at least given me the hope of recovery. I never felt that when I was in the vicious cycle of other opiates (yes, I realize sub is also an opiate). I realize now that I also have to work on the psychological part of addiction as well as the physical. But at least sub takes care of the physical. When you're on suboxone you don't have the cravings. Almost since the beginning, I have been able to get by on a very small dose (2mg or less), so I'm hoping w/ds won't be as bad. But even if they are, it's better than trying to extend my horrible existence on vicodin.

[voiceofreason]

I started Sub last saturday AS A PAIN MANAGEMENT DRUG!! Anyone heard of this? I do not take it for addiction reasons. I have been on Roxycodone (45 to 100 mg's a day) for 10 months and vics and lortabs for 10 years. Back problems and kidney stones. My doc said to me that its the "perfect" drug " it gets rid of the pain with NO buzz, and isnt that what we all want?"

But my concern is, what if I get in a car accident or something and actually NEED an opiat? What if I have a kidney stone attack and Im writhing on the floor in pain? Im scared of this drug. It DOES help with my pain and I get NO buzz but when your in pain and you NEED to take something this isnt gonna cut it. And as you all know once your on it the opiats dont work. So now Im sitting in fear of the "next attack"...................Any view points?

[jt808]

i didnt no all that much bout sub awhile ago and im just hearing 4 the 1st time when i came to this site bout week ago that there were even w/ds from sub so i guess i really dont no much at all but i do no that it got me to stop takn my norcos which no matter what had to stop.  and i was wondering from oc that u said that people who were takn the norcos or hydros shouldnt even be on it i was just wondering why u thnk that i no sum people take sum pretty high doses i no a guy in my neighboor hood that takes between 90/100 a day no joke. i myself took between 30-40 a day for couple years every single day. so i guess do u thnk that theres a certain amount that should be considered to go on sub or just all of the people on norcs or hydros shouldnt be on it i was just curious of why u thnk that and if theres a cutoff as who should b on it???  i have been on sub for lil less than 3 weeks and doc got me on bout 22mgs a day i only take 16ish a day...

[worried878]

why do u say "actually need an opiate"..sub is an opiate?  it is also used for pain...thing is as with any opiate u will build a tolerence to the pain control it provides after a while..everyone is different but it is used for pain as well

[refusingbondage]

You should be concerned re what to do if you get in an accident and need major pain relief.  I had to carry a medical ID card on me during my sub treatment in case of emergencies.  I still have the dam thing --  I will type below what it states (there may be typos cause its a lot of typing..):

"ATTENTION HEALTH CARE PROVIDER:
This patient is taking SUBOXONE (Buprenorphine HCI/Naloxone HCI dihydrate sublingual tablets).  Buprenorphine is a partial opiod agonist.  In an emergency call 911 and call 1877 SUBOXONE

(other side of card)

ATTENTION HEALTH CARE PROVIDER:
This patient is taking a combination of buprenorphine, a partial opiate agonist, ,and naloxene, an opiod antagonist (naloxene is only clinically active when used parenterally).  Patients taking buprenorphine may have a diminished response to opiate medications (including those for the management for cough or pain).  Opiate containing preparations should be avoided when non-opiate therapy is available as an alternative.

In an emergency situation requiring pain relief in patients taking buprenorphine, a suggested plan of management is regional anesthesia, conscious sedation with a benzodiazepine, use of non-opiod anelgesics or general anesthesia.

In a situation requiring opiate analgesia, the dose of opiate required may be greater than usual.  A raidly acting opiate analgesic which minimizes the duration of respiratory depression, should be used.  The dose of opiod medication whould be titrated against this patients analgesic and psychological response, WITH CLOSE MONITORING BY TRAINED MEDICAL STAFF."

So yes, in a real emergency situation I guess the hospital can sedate you, etc but buprenorphine is nothing to fool around with.  

[voiceofreason]

I say "need an opiate" because Sub has a ceiling. If you have ever had a kidney stone you would know what I mean. And with Sub blocking the receptors you cant take an opiate for break through pain....................Thats what Im scared of.

[voiceofreason]

Ah ha............ Refusingbondage,  "gets it" thank you for the info!!

[refusingbondage]

This is the basically the chance you take.  I am not generally pro-sub anymore now that Im off of it, but I was happy to be on it when I started and the doctor and I discussed this issue re sub-- and to me, it was worth writhing on the floor in pain to achieve sobriety.  Nothing is easy.. Especially when dealing with addiction. However you said you take it for pain management - whcih it is not approved for in the US so its a bit confusing.  You should certainly talk to you doctor about it.  Good luck.

[TysonRed]

From what I understand Buprenex is the form buprenorphine that is used for pain and I dont believe it is legal in US. I know the buprenex comes as injections, but again buprenorphine for pain management in my opinion is not the best idea anyways. Like stated above if you have a serious condition that can cause breakout pain, you dont want to be suboxone, because your basicly powerless to stop it. I have chronic pain due to nerve damage and avascular necrosis and suboxone did nothing noticeable for my pain. I did have a compounded gel "neuroderm" ketamine, clonidine, lidocaine, gabapentin that did help with my pain while on sub. I also had to take lyrica occasionally although I cant stand that medication, for some reason lyrica impaired my memory and caused some signifigant weight gain. I know of others that it has really helped with little side effects, but I now just take it as needed because the side effects for me were bad. Take care E1.

[voiceofreason]

Your correct it isnt "supposed" to be a pain med. But think about it, thats what it does with WDs, the same thing. So I give my doc credit for his insight. But Im afraid of the long term, which is what Im on, very long term managment. Im talking to my doc tomorrow and Im gonna lay it on the line.................

[theeagle]

It is currently prescribed for pain in the european community ----  didnt touch my pain so I ditched it......wish something would be effective --- and addict / idiot proof...........

[refusingbondage]

Definately wise to talk to your doctor.  Suboxone does not alleviate the pain of withdrawal, what it does it take you out of withdrawal by feeding your body the opiates it is withdrawing from which I dont think is the same thing as alleviating pain.. Ah, it does get tricky though...

[lin391]

I am so glad i read this site,so far it is the only one i have found positive
for sub,s,,,,they saved my life,at the time i was sick of being sick,i was
broke from buying street drugs,ran all the prescriotions from my dr,
out,,i learn everything the hard way,i knodded on oxy,s,hit a parked car
so lucky i didnt kill anyone,,put in re had,not long enough as far as i
was concerned,but i loved it all,rehad,i learned alot,and found sub,s after
the dr made me go thru detox 3days,i spent more money on street drugs
than i ever did on sub,s,and i wasnt sick anymore,I could go  to work,
and have a normal life, i knew eventually i will have to come off of these
but would deal with it when the time comes,i just needed my life back,
so i could take step be step ,,i was on 2 8mg aday down to 1 1/2,for 2 wks
then slower and slower,,,but i am tapering so slow, and giving myself credit,
to how far i have come,im scared to death,but doing it,,,having headaches,
and anxiety,,,but i will do it,,,wish you all the best in the world,,,,,,lin391

[Mikeinthesouth]

great post thanks

[sirstamper]

So I met a guy at the beach who, after talkin to him about God for a little bit, told me he was addicted to roxys & heroine. He showed me the needle marks on his arm. I invited him to church, & gave him my number & he gave me his. He just called me like 15 minutes ago & told me that he has an opportunity to get 2 Suboxone for $12. He said that his dad, who had kicked him out of the house a week before I met him, told him that he could stay at his house during withdrawals. He asked me to pick him up in the morning & take him to buy the 2 Suboxone while he has this opportunity. He has no job, & he says he just wants to take this opportunity while its available. Should I take him or not?

[LateAugust]

Are you serious??????     Taking any man into your home that you have known for perhaps an hour is extremely dangerous.  Period.

He has  a father that said he would take this guy into his home while he is going thru W/d..........  you need to let his family help him  and you need to think of your personal safety.

[ballingurlie33]

I was on suboxone for almost two years and I would not go on it unless you really need it. I only became even more addicted to suboxone than when I was on painkillers and I became mentally addicted to it. That’s a possibility that everyone takes going on it, but it is not some miracle drug that gets rid of your addiction. Suboxone is used to make a patient  stable enough to receive therapy. If you take just the suboxone without therapy you will most likely fail. I am against suboxone but some people do amazing with it. Personally whether you take suboxone/subutex, methadone it is still better than doing drugs and blowing your money. And at least by trying one of these you are at least heading the right direction. Like posted above just beware because there is no miracle drug that will take cravinings, withdrawal, and your addiction away. Just be careful what doctor you see because a lot don’t give a **** about you. I went from suboxone to methadone for two months and then 9 days ago I quit cold turkey and my dose was at 100mg. I felt better on the methadone but I wouldn't suggest that because you are more likely to be on that for years and years. Either way the more you know about these medications and addiction the better off you are and the better you can make a decision what to do. Good luck and just make sure to do research.

[ochooked]

I am pleased that this thread was resurected.  I had to read my words from last November again and, I must say, after being off of all opiates now for ten months, I still believe every word I wrote back then.  I had been on 140 mg/day of Oxy for 14 years.  I began a taper and after three weeks I was down to 70 mg/day of Hydro when I heard about the 'miracle drug', Sub.  I went on it for 21 days and then lived for months in agony with profuse W/D symptoms.  I have always been convinced that if I had just continued to taper, I could have gotten free from my addiction with far less consequences.  It is also important to know that I only took a total of 8 or 9 tablets of Sub during that 21 days.  I cut them into pieces and tapered rapidly -- but it was not fast enough -- they hooked me very tightly, so when I did jump at only a crumb, I still went through he11 for months.  There were times when I thought they would never let me go - that I would have to live like that forever.  I had the shakes, hot and cold sweats, the runs, insomnia, emotional depression, and all of the other ugly symptoms you never think about when you are using.  Eventually the Sub began to release its grip on me and after a few months I only had minimal symptoms.  At some point I regained the ability to sleep normally and recovered my life.  I never have cravings -- The truth is I cannot imagine putting myself through that torture again just for a few pills.  My biggest fear now is that I will need some type of major surgery and they will give me opiates and restart all of that again.  I have told my doctor that unless they are going to do a Civil War type of amputation, never give me opiates.  I will handle tooth extrations, root canals, or whatever comes - with only non-opiate pain relief.   Last word for those of you who may read this and wonder if you can do it.  YES, you can.  After a 14 year addiction I too thought my demons were too powerful for me --  they are not.  I can tell you truthfully that life is sooooo much better off the drugs.  You will regain things you didn't even know you had lost to drugs --  both physical and emotional and spiritual - I encourage you to quit - and when you do please return and try to give a word of encouragement to those who still struggle.  All the best.  Ochealed -- (formerly ochooked).

[worried878]

Good to c u post oc!

[refusingbondage]

Hey ochealed!  Good to see you dropping in.  The Sub debate still goes on but I think many of us have been able to respect each other's opinions.  I still have mixed feelings on Sub but generally 99% of the time I am against it.  I had a similar experience to yours for months and months and months.  I also totally agree that life is so much better now.  8 months post sub and I am alive and well and happy again... took forever but well worth the fight.  Well done oc!

[candothis247]

Ok so, if a person has to wait 24 to 36 hours after your last dose of oxy to start suboxone, I am thinking, then why even start it at all? I've been on oxys every day for almost 3 years now. I’m tapering down which is by no means easy, but somehow someway I’m managing to do it (I think by the grace of God). If all goes well or as planned, I’ll be on 30 mgs oxy every day for about 12 more days or so, and then reduce 5 mg, etc.. Based on what I'm reading here, I would NOT be a good candidate for suboxone.... I'm thinking after 3 years on this ****, if I need to be off oxys for 24-36 hours....b-4 starting suboxone,  (that would be a miracle in and of itself), it seems to me, that at that point, try to just stay off oxys all together, and if I go crazy, just take small dose of oxy every couple days, till I'm off completely.... I guess what I'm saying, if ya gotta wait this 24 - 36 hour period, why not try to stick it out another 24-36 with out the pills and then be home free... kind of? Well not home free... But oxy free… ????

[chefronbt]

Not to repeat myself but this was a response i gave to an earlier thread and is my experience.

I have tried to quit so many times with no sucsess.  I finally turned to suboxone and it was a miracle for me.  I feel like a human again and am now able to deal with the issues that caused my problem head on, and still function like a person, (work, raise kids, be a responsible husband) so i guess everyone is individual  in their responses to things but for me if it weren't for the sub, i would not be clean right now, i guarantee it.  I don't consider that a weak character as some might but the 16 mgs of sub i need per day is nothing compared the 150mgs of lortab, percocet, morphine, lorcet.  etc, i was taking every day.  My addiction had such a hold on me that it's not that i couldn't take the w/d's (they were quite awful) but my craving to use was so strong i could NEVER make it past day 3, now matter how strong my will was.  90 dollars a day habit to a 10 dollar a day treatment.  Makes sense for me, and im not lying cheating, stealing, pawning, conning, scamming, or hurting anyone anymore.  I am involved in NA, an out-patient treatment center and a VERY caring but no bulls**t sub doctor who will not let me manipulate him.  He does pill counts three times a week to make sure i am sticking to the dose and he is very blunt when it comes to the things I have done and people i have hurt.  Everyone's different but to me without the sub I would prob be dead or in jail right now and I know i would not still have my wife and children (who have been to most patient and caring people I have ever known, they should have thrown me out a year ago).  Just my personal story and I hope maybe it will help someone.  I wish the best to all.

-Ron  

[worried878]

sub is different than other narcs..as it is a partial and not a full agonist...but all in all..and written in many places when i researched it...sub/ per /mg is over 10 x stronger than hydrocodone...conversion charts say 1 mg of sub is equal to 20-30 mgs of hydro...i was at 100 mgs a day of hydro and 2 mgs/used when i ran out of pills/held me...and that would be bout right cos that would equal 60 mgs of hydro...but it felt better than 60 mgs of hydro cs i would feel a bit of wd on only 60 mgs a day....it is hard to compare the 2 drugs as mechanisms of action r very different..but n essence, both r narcotics...16 mgs of sub would ccover a buttload of hydrocodne so it makes since a 150 mg user would feel great on 16 mgs of sub...but i wonde if that would cause tolerence to go up in general?  the sub company now says people do build tolerence on sub///a friend who was worried called their hotline here//originally it was thought that sub does not cause tolerence increases
But i do beleive it can work miracles for heavy users people who cant take off work to detox, those who have tried and tried before to quit..and it is better to be on a legal drug vs an illegal one for the person....tapering from sub would be a nightmare for me cos i suk at tapering/most addicts do....and those who seem to have the negative opinion of sub are those who r now off of it..and not those who r still on it...cos the ones on it feel wonderful...so i guess a true opinion may be after the ordeal of wd is over//and the person stays clean like refusing and ochooked after stopping it..others who have stopped and remained clean have nuttin but good to say bout sub..so to each his own...as long as they know what they r getting into

[candothis247]

question: if 1 mg of sub is equal to 20-30 mgs of hydro would that be the same for oxycontin would 1 mg of sub be equal to 20-30 mgs oxy then?  Thanks

[ochooked]

Wow!! Still lots of interest and debate on the question of Sub.  I did notice one thing that seemed a little peculiar about the ones who tout the advantages of Sub --  It seems to me that a great majority of those who praise it are the ones who are still on it.  I have said it many times on this site -- but Chefronbt is one of those who actually may need the Sub --  Those hard core addicts who just cannot quit especially from Heroin or Methadone.  For everyone else, it is only switching your DOC --- before you guys crucify me -  this is only my opinion.  I know some are very vocal to sing of the advantages of Sub.  To me and many others who posted on this site, it was a drug from he11 --.  Yes, it works very well - stops the cravings - makes you feel almost human again -- until you try to let it go.  Sub does not want a divorce -- it grips  and holds on tight and will not let go until you pry its cold dead fingers from around your neck.  If you are on a massive dose of O.C. or Heroin and believe you cannot stop any other way -- and are prepared to take Sub for years, then it may be a benefit.  Yes, it is better than stealing, lying, conning, prostituting, and the other things people do for opiates.  But for those who want a truly drug free life, I vote for a good (reasonable) taper assisted by your doctor and a close friend to dispense the pills.  Again guys, just my two cents worth.  In a few weeks you will be a different and drug free person.  You will discover things (do I dare mention the three letter S_x word ?  Everything is better, not just physical pleasures but emotions are real - not masked by opiates --- even colors are brighter --  Life is good when you are free.  I wish everyone on the site a happy and drug free life. All the best.  OC

[candothis247]

Thanks for your 2 cent's worth, for me, your post was worth way more than 2 cents!  Everyone's opinion is important ---- knowledge is power!!! this site is so helpful.....

[refusingbondage]

I agree with oc completely (imo).  Sub will continue to be a hot topic as more and more people begin their treatment and many are now trying to end their treatment.  I have said this before but I guess because I have been so passionate and posted so much about suboxone, I get personal messages, at least 5 a week, from people in pure suboxone addiction he11.  Cant quit.  Cant take the withdrawal from it.   At their wits end 10 days into sub detox, its only getting worse so they start using it again  (cant say I blame them.. been there...but somehow managed to pull through without going back).  I cannot even count how many times I've read in a personal message "my doctor said I can take sub forever, I guess I will cause I just cant quit it."  Its so sad.  I get so depressed sometimes but try with all my might to give hope and keep it positive.  As much of a he11acious withdrawal it *can* be, its still possible to free yourself from addiction of any kind.. including but not limited to suboxone addiction.  Its just a loooong hard battle.  And like eagle mentioned before this is happening more and more with the views of sub treatment changing from "helps ease withdrawal" to "maintenance for life".  To each his own for sure and honestly whatever you have to do to maintain a functional life is exactly what you must do no matter who says what.  But for me, now being off suboxone after over 2 years on it, life is so much better.  I touted sub up and down when I first began using it.. OMG i loved it.. but after a while I hated it and I hated my *need* for it.  

[theformula]

well i agree everyone may not need subs. but for someone like me who used H intravenously for 8 years it was the only option. it is different for everyone. i have been on it for a year and yes i do need it but ****, i have a life now. im not consumed by thoughts of H, getting H, using H and recovering from and jonesing for more. if i didnt have that reassurance every morning that i will not be able to get high if i take my med, i dont know how long i would stay clean. for hard core addicts like me it took years and years to get to this point, and even before i used there had to be emotional problems i didnt even realize. subs buy you the time to figure things out and to learn to stay clean and live a sober lifestyle. there are some side effects but im finding that with a healthy diet, some excellent nutritional supplements and a little excercise they are minimal and definately worth the trade off. if u can quit without using them or use them for a detox period then quit good for you, but i would not be here if it werent for subs and i wouldnt be typing on this laptop that i bought cuz it would belong to the dopeman now! call it whatever you want but i will trade sub addiction for H addiction which in my case included cocaine ( i only did speedballs, everyday evertime). i am in counseling, outpatient rehab, go to meetings and have the best sub doctor ever who drug tests me, calls me and provides me with a case manager at the office for any help i may need. i had a really ****** doc the first 8 mo who did nothing but write a script. im accountable now and am learning to live again. there are things i need to fix though before im ready to get off of them. i mainly stay on them as a deterrent to using H cuz i know i cant get high off it. for me i have cut way down on my dose also and even gone days without when i gave some to a friend i was trying to help. i just tapered what i had left and went almost a week without it. felt normal after a day or two and was nothing like H withdraw. my opinion is dont be afraid to try subs if u think they will benefit you and you have tried to stop with no success multiple times. you HAVE to do the other work too though, the subs wont make you forget about your alcoholic father, or abusive uncle or whatever underlying issues you may have. you need to get treatment if your bad enough to need subs. and it is worth it. i love going to treatment, it is the highlight of my week and counseling too. my counselor i can tell anything an he doesnt judge me only helps me find my way in a supportive and caring envirment. you need to find a good one that your comfortable with. i quit about 3 different ones before i got this one. any way that all i have to say about that.

[theformula]

in my experience and from what many doctors and detoxs have taught me is you just need to wait untill you feel symptoms of withdraw. for oxy users i guess this may take longer than an IV heroin user, but i was always told about 12 hours. it only took me about 4-6 hours to go into withdraw after my last dose of H and i was pretty much always sick. i relapsed several short times while on subs and i usually started my subs up again after 12 hours. YOU ONLY NEED TO BE IN WITHDRAW. which will be different for everyone. but take subs also to keep you from going back to oxy. you know you cant get high if you take them. especially if you take more than 12mg daily. ive wasted my money a few times. i went from 24mgs to about 4-8mgs a day with no adverse effects. if u think it will help u try it. what do you have to lose except your habit!

[theformula]

also did you hear yourself. why not just take some more oxy if i feel sick after stopping from my ween. that defeats the purpose and starts you all over again. if thats the case you will never stop and every time you take a pill you run the risk of going full blown back into your addiction. no offense but you cant have a plan to keep using, to take a pill if your sick. that dont work. you will relapse

[chefronbt]

I do realize there are dangers with the suboxone and risks.  But for me there was no other option, I physically COULD NOT stop taking opiates.  Sometimes i would take 150 mgs' of hydro, top with a 60 mg ms contin, and pop a couple zanax.  I know it's not right for everyone because everyones bodies react differently but for me I guess it was the lesser of two evils at this point.  I have dont some pretty horrible things during my addiction and quite honestly i should be behind bars for a very long time for some things.  My marriage ws ruined, i spent over 25,000 dollars in 5 months on drugs, destroyed my 2 childrens college fund, lost over 25 lbs, im a 5'5 male who weighs in right now at 118 lbs.  And thats after gaining about 4 pounds in the last few weeks as my appetite has returned on the suboxone.  I realize that eventually i will have to quit the sub as I do not want it to a "lifelong maintenance" for me.  I WANT to be drug free so badly, probably more than anything.  I miss who I used to be and am just now beginning to rediscover who I am.  I agree there are alot of negative things about sub, (addiction to another drug, cost, legit doc's, etc.) but FOR ME there NO OTHER choice.  I simply wasn't going to make it cold turkey.  I probably tried more than 100 times over a year and never made it beyond 3 days.  I also worstened the problem because I ALWAYS chewed every pill.  One thing that scared me is part of my sub treatment next week i have to get some labs done.  I can only imagine the damage ive done to my liver.  Alot of times the lortabs were 5 mg each, so 150 mgs, was 30 lortabs x 500 mg's of acetiminophen.  That's 15000 mgs of acetaminophen daily.....I'm def pretty scared about the test.  ANyway. just my opinion, I'm downing anyone's negative of sub because I'm sure for some it was not the way to go.  Im sure the w/d from sub will not be fun, but I have NO other choice right now.  For me, it's working and I've spent more time with my children, with my wife, begun making ammends to ALOT of people, and I'm truly emotionally beginning to feel like person again.  Thanks for listening to my rant...lol

-Ron

[chefronbt]

correction to my last post!!  :)

just my opinion, I'm "NOT" downing anyone's negative of sub because I'm sure for some it was not the way to go.

[ochooked]

No need to explain Ron;  Almost everyone I have seen post over the past year that is 'anti - Sub' has admitted that for the 'hard core' long term users of H or Methadone or even very high doses of Oxy may be looking at their only chance of getting clean.  For the rest of us who only took what they were prescribed over many years but found ourselves a slave to our drug supplier (usually our doctor) - then using Sub to kick Opiate is akin to using a bomb with a hand grenade would do.  I am proud of you and the distance you have come -- quite amazing, really.  But for those who want the 'easy' way out and think they will just stay on Sub until they can kick an Oxy or Hydro habit of less than 250 mg/day, they are only deceiving themselves.  We have seen multitudes of those (like Refusingbondage) who thought Sub was wonderful until they tried to quit it --  So, bottom like - if you have to decide between a life of crime or a life on Sub then the later is the only right choice.  For everyone else, buyer beware.  Once again  - I have noticed that the only positive responses to Sub are from those who are still using it.  When I was active on this site I noticed that the ratio was at least 10 to 1 against Sub -  by those who had used it and gotten clear of it.  Almost no one returned to tout how wonderful it was to have been on Sub.  Again, just my two cents.  You guys really are awesome - you are on here to get and give help.  I wish you all the best.  OC

[refusingbondage]

theformula and chefrontb:

I can agree with both of you as well.  This is why the sub discussion is so important.  One thing I think everyone can agree on is that sub does in fact give you a definate sense of normalcy in your life.  It frees you from an addictive lifestyle and allows you much needed time to not worry about cravings (because most people don't crave at all on suboxone) and to work on what the real issues are.  For many sub has indeed been a lifesaver and no one would ever argue that sub maintenance is worse for you than living needle to needle or script to script.

But many of us were duped by it and the promise of a 'withdrawal free detox from opiates".  Thats exactly why I took it--never being told by my doctor who was not a bad doctor at all, very caring and not money hungery -- that I would be on it for a long long time.. There is a considerable painful withdrawal risk when quitting suboxone and too many people are not told that and given the option to either take the treatment or not, knowing all the facts.  When I quit subs after being on for over 2 1/2 years I was told little to no withdrawal.  Not only was it the worst of any withdrawal, it lasted months and the cravings came back within a few weeks of not taking sub.. (leading to a minor relapse/short affair with some Vicoprofen for a very short period of time around 3 months after suboxone)  It basically just held everything off and it all piled on 10 fold when I stopped sub.  All the issues, cravings, etc.  For those using sub and working on yourself through therapy, NA or AA or some kind of support group and preparing for and properly tapering down and off suboxone - it can be a great tool.  Hey even if you take it forever thereby never sticking another needle in your arm or abusing another bottle of oxycontin - that is your choice and I commend your efforts and have nothing but respect for you.  For me personally I wanted to be free of everything.  Sub kicked my a**.  After the honeymoon with sub wore off, for me individually, it turned into a physically and mentally abusive partner.  This is why knowing all the facts, the good, the bad, and the ugly, about subxoone is so important and making an educated decision and being willing to do all the work (and not just pop a sub) is so important.  Best of luck to everyone fighting this disease.  We are all warriors.

[worried878]

u cant really actually compare them in reality..sub to other narcs..cos they r not exactly the same...but there r conversion charts out there that do...oxy is a bit stronger than hydro..not alot but it is a schedule 3 and hydro is a schedule 2/schedule 2 being a lower abuse potential that a schedule 3//not so sure bout that...but anyway in theory oxy is stronger than hydrocodone

[LateAugust]

If you are having a hard time with quitting oxy or H for 24 hrs  then Subutex is normally what docs/detox  will put you on for 72 hrs. before they prescribe Suboxone, this way you won't get horribly sick,  you may want to ask your doc about that option.

The reason this post was back into the main stream is because of a woman whom wanted to know if it was okay to take an addict into her home....   I'm sorry I responded to that question, as I was very concerned for her safety. But her question really had nothing to do with Suboxone.

I have said ad naseum Suboxone allowed or gave the opportunity for my kid to focus on recovery...  completing 30 day in patient,  60 day IOP,  NA, long term after care 2 x a week, college  work  and so on and so on......

The Suboxone debate should truly be left up to the individual,  after MUCH research and MULTPILE relapses, perhaps this is one of MANY treatment options available  or NA  or  QT  or detox  or pschy treatment  or addictologists care      there are a lot of options,  I only wish at some point the judgment would pass,  and we could accept  all options available for sobriety,  whether that one worked for you or not....    everyone,  as is their addiction is different....   and so will be their recovery.


Or so is my humble opinion.    Nothing will work, if you are not 100% committed to your sobriety in every sense of the word.

[theformula]

well i dont know exactly were i was pushing subs on you but looks to me like someone(YOU)is getting defensive about your ridiculous plan to wean of oxy then use them again if u feel sick. it looks to me like your looking for someone to tell you its ok to do what your doing. well go ahead. have fun and dont ever come to my page again talking **** or ask questions you dont want real answers to. have fun "WEENING" off your oxy when your ready to look at what your really doing maybe you can get clean.also i havent heard one word from you about rehab, counseling, support systems, meetings or anything else. your plan is to go down 5mg every 12 days and your at 35 right now. so lets see thats 7x12 which is 84. your ween is 80 some days long still and then when its all over your rational is if i feel sick i will just take some more. yeah, good luck with that..............

[candothis247]

that was a "not a very nice post"   here is the note i posted which you obviously took offense to and deleted..... i deleted your notes as well, but you were telling me what to do, what i should and shouldnt do....  

Formula:  I am here to make an informed decision based on the information that I gather here which is best for me. Please do not push your ideas regarding suboxone on me and tell me I should do suboxone. What is good for you is not necessarily good for me, or the next person who comes along. You can write all day long on how suboxone works well for "you", and it has helped "you" succeed in getting clean, but please do not tell me what you think I should do e.g seek professional help, go to a sub doctor, etc.  I came to this site to read how people have succeeded in getting clean and support people who are clean now, and get support for my efforts as well.  Please don’t take offence by my forwardness, but your formula may be different than my formula but I think and hope we are both headed in the same direction -- to get clean.  Good luck to you.

[candothis247]

ok i should have taken the high road and not responed to that post. Sorry, im human and that post made me feel bad.... gotta go to work.... sorry people... dont want to stir the pot.... i should have known better.

[liscamdave]

If she decided to continue to wean off the oxy's dropping 10% every 3-4 days, that is a relatively good and smart taper. Now, when she is down to say .05 mgs of oxy and stops, she shouldn't keep using oxy, she should just stop and endure what is left of the w.d. But, she isn't giving excuses, at least I don't get that from her posts. She seems she is looking for a way to stop. I wish her the best.

And sub can be beneficial for some people, short term...that is my opinion and my opinion only.

[omgmissi]

Hello All,

Only now am I well enough to write! But I've been reading and gaining strength from others' stories. I am now on DAY 8 of Suboxone withdrawal, after 2 years on it. It has been H.E.L.L. My Dr. put me on 8mgs. Sub with only a mild hydro habit...80 mgs/day. I could have kicked that waaay easier! In my own opinion, DON'T START SUBOXONE unless you are dealing with a really heavy addiction you just can't get yourself out of. It's not worth it. Given full knowledge by my doctor I would have chosen to tough it out 2 years ago.

But I found what seems to be my answer...might not be the best choice, but it's working for me. I first weaned down as low as I could, about .5 mgs/day. It was tough. Then I took the jump to 0. DAY 1 & 2 were not great. And OMG I suffered through DAY 3, then 4, and then 5, and it was NARLY. I refused to put Sub back in my body after reading about the length of the w/d. Right or wrong, I had a few hydros from a dental issue and used them to treat the symptoms of the Sub w/d, and it is removing the deep bone/muscle/nerve pain. I feel human again. My concern is that I could be prolonging the Sub withdrawal. I think not because the Sub is still out of my body. Might have to deal with a little hydro w/d which is NOTHING next to Sub w/d. And I truly believe I can stop hydro..and I will. Not everyone can so I don't recommend this to everyone. But it's working for me and getting me thru to DAY 12-14 that people seem to think starts getting better. Anyone have any experience with this that can tell me what to expect?

I really can't believe the thing that put me on Sub is my tool to get off Sub. I am ABSOLUTELY NOT suggesting someone start back on any old demons, just sharing how I am surviving this ordeal. I pray I am not being naive, and truly believe I am strong enough now to survive this. The next couple days will be very telling.

I keep in mind what someone else said about detoxing and withdrawals...IT WILL BE OKAY...AND THEN IT WILL BE GREAT!

A very determined,

Missi


"Other reasons for trouble tapering off Suboxone:  buprenorphine has a potency akin to that of fentanyl.  A dose of 5-10 MICROGRAMS is a potent analgesic.  A quarter of one tablet of Suboxone contains 2 mg of buprenorphine, or 2000 MICROGRAMS!!  So any dose of Suboxone is 'overkill'-- even a sliver of a tablet contains an amount of buprenorphine that is quite high, and possibly over the 'ceiling dose'.  Stopping 16 mg Suboxone is like abruptly stopping 30 mg of methadone... and stopping 2 mg of Suboxone is like stopping 30 mg of methadone!" - Jeffrey T Junig, MD PhD  

[worried878]

u seem to have done ur homework...the ceiling effect makes taking huge doses of sub kinda silly..but the sad thing is people who dont know better get sukked into this and end up with the one thing they wanted to avoid in the first place..wds....i was at ur dose of hydro...really more but had done sub/not for the right reasons/and knew i would have a problem tapering off of it cos i was no good at tapering off hydro..and 2 mgs of sub put my hydro habit to shame....liked it too much...but u r where u r and as long as u come thru clean and know u can stop the hydro..u will come thru...keep posting cos theres lots of support here....this is an old post tho..not too old but a new pquestion would bring more attn to ur post...sub is a good tool for some who need it at heavy intake etc....or it can become a new doc and a new noose around ur neck...but u r on ur way to being free

[Iwantmylifeback22]

Hi,
not sure if this is the right place to post for me... i've been using opiates for 5 yrs now for legitimate pain issues. I've been trying to stop and learn to manage my pain in a different way... But everytime I try I get so so sick. It's so depressing. i cry all the time because no one takes it seriously. They all think i should be able to do it on my own. I feel like i'm dying a slow death and no one will help me find a way to come out of it.

[mtgoat911]

the best quote i have ever seen dealing with suboxone addiction is this

"trading one denile system for another does not equal recovery"

that pretty much sums up my stint on suboxone, i thought it was a god send until i tried to get off it, i am still waiting to hear back from the addicitons doctor here about his personal experience with subxone, i have read all those articles on his sub. blog but he seems to leave out somethings, it seems like if you can put your face on a product you could atleast talk about how it worked for you, even people who sell ceral let us know how it taste before they go on tv promoting it

[Farren27Lins]

I like suboxone though I haven't been on it long term I get off it asap!

[Charetti]

I have been reading for hours, this thread and many others.  I am going to my doctor tomorrow and confessing my addiction, a huge step for me.  The doc has been giving it too me but I take much more, and buy on the street.  I cant do it anymore and I am so afraid.  However I want to thank everyone who added their info and feel more educated.  Now its time to take back my life!

[leeisgettingclean]

"I am going to my doctor tomorrow and confessing my addiction, a huge step for me" ...thats a huge step for anyone, congrads on that! You must be ready to quit and that, along with accepting you have a problem says alot as well!

[steven1959]

I saw my shrink yesterday, day 7 from a 80min-320 max hydros Time release oxy's for the higher doses, I also enjoyed 50 mg's of meth when i could get it. Anyhow my shrink looked at me and said "whats going on". I told him, He asked if I would like help with the cravings, He wrote me a script for subs. 14 tabs 1/2 twice a day see you in 2 weeks! Your right, I took my half tab when i got home and an hour later i was knocked out of the park. He sent me home with a suboxone pamphlet, and a help line! this stuff is strong and emulates the real stuff good enough for me to get hooked on. Why he gave me something so powerful on day 7(i did not initiate the discussion of subs)got me thinking? The office is named addictions counciling & therapy.Back on point. the average session time is7-8 mins.I believe his best interest is keeping his patients medicated.I know i'm paranoid. But here me out if all us patients became drug free he would be out of a job! Suboxone.com has a lot of information and my interpatation is other than methadone, they see suboxone as a 36 week program! At 7 days in c/t I would expect a scrip for 2-3 valium Maybe a couple dexies remember dexies for energy. Thanks to your posting I can nip this early, If I have to go thru w/ds of such intensity again, I'm gonna be pissed. Iam grateful for this website. prayers for all of us.

[RoxiMan2009]

SUBOXONE *****...read my other posts and debates regarding it. W/D are stronger than my 600 mg a day oxy habit. I tried to quit with subo so many times and relapses after stopping subo. Went cold turkey and was successful.

[whitie]

I dont know why people just dont read about sub?  ok, its a narcotic replacement opioid, that is very strong and does have worse wd's than the other opioids. what would one expect from a stronger narcotic opioid?

facts are facts...  but on a side note I was talking with a member here that brought up a valid point, that some have such bad addictions and sub is the only option for them.


unless you are a heroin addict shooting up or 20-plus oxy user, then stay far away from the money grubbing sub doc  system.

[RoxiMan2009]

well said

[Ga Guy]

I think there's a few reasons for the influx of bad Suboxone withdrawal stories. I am going ahead and saying that I truly believe them all. I also was on Sub for a while and quit 3 or 4 times. Every time I did the withdrawals were horrific. However, I was trying to jump off at 2mg or more. Until I had successfully weaned down to .5mg, I wasn't able to stop. After getting to .5mg I jumped and had mild withdrawals at most. Sub is much more potent milligram for milligram versus other opiates. Many people think..hey, I was taking 200mg a day of Oxy, jumping off of 2mg of Sub should be a breeze. Just doesn't work like that. I believe the next incarnation of Suboxone therapy (along with the generics coming to market) will be the introduction of smaller dosages in easy to use tablet form, a liquid, and a patch like the one available in Europe. Also, if you look online you'll see the ratio of good experiences with Sub outweighed by bad ones 100 to 1. It's like that for almost every drug. Why? People don't look for an outlet to complain when they have nothing to complain about. Many people are also in the false impression that Suboxone somehow changes the addiction. It merely arrests the addiction for the length of time it's taken. Addiction is a mental disease that has to be treated by getting to the root of the problem. Suboxone is just putting off the inevitable. That's why short term Sub therapy fails so often if it's not followed by some sort of therapy. Long term Sub therapy is just as ineffective if the problem isn't addressed while on the maintenance program. As for who should or shouldn't be on Sub...that's not mine or anyone's call but the prescribing doctor and the patient. Just like I have no business telling someone they're an addict, I also have no business telling them how to treat it.

[maitri0]

Thank you to everyone who posted on this page for your honesty with your addictions. We are not alone, that is the first thing to remember! I will not get in to my doses and yadayada, but I am as much as a drug fiend as any that has ever been on this earth. I hate it. If I could get an exorcist to get this demon out of me, I would. Before I was put on subs, I literally could not be away from my oxy's for an hour before I would have to find a bathroom to snort another one. I started drug's when I was 13, and have been buying them on the street ever since. I could not go to anyone's house without tearing through there medicine cabinets to steal whatever op I could find. The only way that I could maintain this lifestyle was because I work as an assistant film director. This is one of the few professions where my raging drug addiction has never been looked down upon, but actually finds me more free meds and partners in crime. I made a ton of money, and it all went up my nose. I have not enjoyed drugs since I was 14, but I have been completely unable to stop. Genetics? (my grandmother didn't walk a straight line for 30 years, my other grandparents weren't much better.) Sometimes I think that I did not even stand a chance :( Has subs helped me to stay clean? Yes. Do I hate them as much as any other drug? Yes. I am not here to talk about the glories or evils of drugs, but rather the amazing support system that one can find in narcotics anonymous. A lot of people will tell you that you should not go unless you are completely clean, that they will not accept you. This is not true. I am allowed to be honest about everything that my addiction entails, and I have received nothing but love and support. I paid for counselors and shrinks, mucho $$$. Don't even bother. You will bore each other to death. In NA, you will be able to find people who are just as diseased, addicted, and insane as you are, and most importantly, will give you HONESTY, and force you to begin to question yourself, a trait that most addicts seem to be lacking in. Subs has kept me off all other drugs, a miraculous feat in itself. It has given me the ability to stop my destructive lifestyle long enought to receive real help. I just don't believe that I am clean. I am still taking a drug to be normal. The addiction, for whatever reason it is there, is STILL THERE. When I first started this medicine, I thought that I was getting clean. Correction. I am allowing my brain to heal itself from years of abuse. I know that the real work has yet to begin. I have stil not lived a day free of opiates. I am still an addict, and whoever believes that they are not because they are taking subs is lying to themselves. Take my word for it. If you are on drugs like vics and percs, do yourself the favor and just quit! Don't take this medication. It is for hardcore drug addicts. If you do choose to not heed this warning, and go ahead and get on subs anyway, then you should know that you are a hardcore addict, and have just been waiting for the opportunity or excuse to get your hands on something tastier, and will continue to make excuses to keep yourself on it. You are entering the world of the big bad wolves. You will go through years of hell and confusion, all because you had a little craving, and could not take the 'horrible' w/d of a mild opiate. Who am I to judge your treatment? If you don't like my politics, go find someone who gives a #$@! and tell them. If, however, you see no end to your shooting, snorting, smoking, and stupidity, and spend more time with a needle in your arm or a dollar in your nose than you do eating or sleeping, go on the subs. They will save your life. Even if it is only to get you to a place where you can begin to get treatment, and see the error of your ways. If you do not plan to get some form of mental and emotional support to go along with your treatment, then you too are just looking for an easy way to get off, but brother, I will tell you, this ain't it. It is not easy or cheap. Go and find people who will challenge you and offend you and make you realize that your obsession with getting high is 100% pure sicko, and that any goal other than being clean is still just you disease lying to you. I promise you the more that you here this from your empathetic peers, the more you will begin to dream of a day that you too will walk in the pure land of freedom and sobriety. I see that day very close for me. I want this part of me to die, so that I can live. I love you and I want that for you too. PS. To that chick who got mad when it was suggested that 'weaning' off your oceans might not be the best plan, grow up. If you are going to post your problem, be prepared for the answers. Not everyone is here to breast feed you. But good luck to you anyway.

[bbb22]

As far as suboxone goes, I think it depends on the person and many other factors on deciding whether or not it will be detrimental to your recovery or if it will help you. I was taking Lortab and Vics for 3 years straight, probably about 10-20 pills a day. I decided a little while ago that I didn't want this life anymore and I tried quitting I had horrible withdrawals and just ended up going back to the pills. I did my research on Subs and decided to give it a try. The first day I took an 8 mg pill. And automatically started tapering from there for the fear that i would just get addicted to the Sub's in replacement of the tabs. I am on day 9 and I take about 2 mg every other day. I have made a goal with myself to be totally off in 20 days. I wait until I go back into wd to take my piece. Last night I still had some physical wd's still. But not as bad as the first few days. I am just waiting for the physical wd's to subside and then I will quit the Subs. For me there would've been no other way for me to kick this horrible addiction. I think that if you do your research well and understand the possible consequences that anyone should be able to make an educated decision. I personally think that it is easier for people who haven't been addicted very long and don't abuse very large quantities. But if you're truly ready to get off, I would recommend Subs. They are not for long term use. The longer you are on them the harder it will be for you to get off and the easier it will be for your body to get addicted and switch one vice for another. Start tapering from day and continue to lower from there and you will be amazed at how quick it passes and how much better you feel. I still have mental wd's and my brain is telling me it wants lortabs but I am ready to be healthy for the first time in my life, and that's what made this different. It's a rough road mentally and I know it will be that way for a while. But I am determined to stay clean and strong and get thru this. Good luck to everyone here! My prayers are with all of us.