What is and isn't a "mind altering" substance in your opinion?

[Sarah11212]

Hopefully this doesn't cause contraversy but I'm going to throw it out there because it seems that I'm seeing and hearing alot of different things on this subject.
When we become sober or clean, we can no longer use any substance that alters our mind.
And of course we will all have our own opinions on this and they all should be respected.

[Vickiceebest]

hi to the guy who says u cant overdose on hash cannabis - true fact i agree. But its very easy to promote that its safe when its not . Its jst as damaging as any drug. Ur mind is taken over by the effect of bein stoned in more ways than i have time to go into . There is no class drug. Ie coke costs a lot and sucessful ppl use it socially ? Ok maybe at first but it all leads same path , affect our lives negatively , paranoia, i have witnessed a loved one say and do things due to lows without a joint that iv never heard a smack user say or do. Split personalities and mood swings resulting in utter self destruction! And most importantly denial . Thats only ma opinion. Any one into speed, or whizz etc uppers want to give me advise on how to access rehab ? Id be grateful for ur advise thanks  

[hellc@mst]

Certain recovery group members are always the first to remind us about the perils of "cross addiction" and how a drug addict mustnt ever drink alcohol (even if they can responsibly) or smoke pot (even if its only on the rare occasion) as this is a relapse. Clean times need to be reset and the imbiber is demoted to day 0 again for consuming a "mood altering substance"

Ironically, those cancer causing  cigarettes I used to enjoy (quit now for almost 2 years) because they would help calm my nerves before important meetings and help me relax whilst I sat in front of the TV are all perfectly acceptable.

Each morning when I wake up I like to make a strong coffee. The more cafiene the better. This helps to PERK me up in the mornings and give me energy to start the day. Aparently this mood altering substance is acceptable to the arbiters of what it means to be "clean"  

The real irony is that Bill Wilson, co founder of AA was a vocal advocate for the therapeutic use of LSD as a way to treat recovering alcoholics. He has been recorded on numerous occasions extolling the virtues of drug and was himself partial to the consumption of the mind bending psychedelic.

The following is an exerpt from a letter from Aldous Huxley...

"Yesterday I lunched with Bill Wilson who spoke enthusiastically of his own experiences with leuco-adrenochrome and of the successful use of it on his ex-alcoholic neurotics. This really sounds like a break-through and I hope you are going ahead with clinical testing."

And...

"One of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous [Bill Wilson] described to me the transcendental experience he credits with giving him control over his compulsive drinking. Years later he took LSD five or six times. This, he said, reinstated his original ecstasy, and consequently he wishes that LSD were more available to alcoholics."

sourced from; Chemical Ecstasy: Psychedelic Drugs and Religion by Walter Houston Clark Sheed & Ward, New York, 1969.

Incidently, there is compellimg evidence suggesting that Wilson consumed LSD daily for up to 3 years, contrary to the conservative " 6 times" mentioned above. Also, its interesting to note that Wilson NEVER amended his clean time

We also have Bills Secretary, Nell Wing,  describe some of AA's early success with LSD..........
..
....."There were alcoholics in the hospitals of whom A.A. could
    touch and help only about five percent. The doctors started
    giving them a dose of LSD, so that the resistance would be
    broken down. And they had about fifteen percent recoveries."
    === Nell Wing  —  PASS IT ON, page 370.

So, apparently LSD works 3 times better than AA at treating alcoholics.  

Anyways, my point is that OUR sobriety is OURS to define and we shouldnt let people who dont know us dictate the terms of our recovery. If someone feels a glass of wine with their supper  or the occasional joint is ok then so be it. That doesnt make you an addict and doesnt necessarily expose you to the perils of potential heroin addiction. Besides, If its good enough for Bill Wilson ....................

[NeverDreamed]

Thanks.  I see it as Alcohol and Nicotine are killing more people than marijuana are... but common sense doesn't run rampid does it?  haha

[Sarah11212]

I sooo agree w/ you NeverDreamed.

[selfinduced]

What an excellent analogy and descript. Very well said.

[NeverDreamed]

Mike, I agree.  I have never smoked marijuana, and now my job would not allow me to... but I have family and friends with medical marijuana cards who truly use it for things like pain, and Attention Defecit Disorder (ADD), and are fully functional, you wouldn't even know they were high, and it helps their pain.  I think America or wherever you may live, should treat it like alcohol, tax the crap out of it to help our financial crisis, make a law about not driving while under the influence,make it still illegal to sell it without a business license, make a law like Alaska where you are allowed to carry 2 joints on you at a time, and only allowed to grow 2 plants in your home, ... at least that's what my old roomate told me when he moved there... I have not confirmed that.  I do agree although only my opinion alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana.  

[MikeInFrance]

I'm a smoker....mind altering? Not for me and not to me. More like a relaxer... I dont smoke to get high or for euphoria...maybe 20 years ago it was like that. Look I am 39 and I have smoked since I was about 17 and just about everyone I know (k not quite but...) smokes. These are people who have smoked for as long as I have and none have ever had a problem. To me there is no reason that it's even classified as a drug and in time it wont be anymore. Alcohol was never my thing but I do regard it as more dangerous than marijuana just from the amount of deaths caused so it's def mind altering after a certain amount is consumed.  The other meds u mentioned above.... I have no experience with but I would consider benzos as mind altering. But Then again I don't even agree that you should never use a 'mind altering substance' if you have ever been addicted or dependent on any other drug. That's my 2 cents and it's almost 1am so goodnight script! good post! ......(ps..u can overdose on just about any drug but have you ever heard of someone overdosing on weed?) no u haven't

[NeverDreamed]

Script, seems we are all pretty much in agreement... so far =)  

[ricart70]

My opinion which is based on alot of reading and also experience with all of these things is this;  AD meds have a very different working action than alcohol,benzos,etc.   ad meds do not cause your brain to release large amounts of free flowing neurotransmitters(dopamine,norepenephrine,etc.) into the brain and body.You can't "pop" an ad and feel different in a matter of minutes(thus no street value) like you can with any of these other drugs that were listed.For example I never forget to take my oxy but when I was taking antidepressant meds I would often be lying in bed and remember I forgot to take my ad that day.It wasn't even worth getting up to take it so I didn't.When I first got on ad meds I thought they were going to make me feel like I did when I was high.I could not have been more wrong.THey did nothing of the sort.They only slightly blunted some of my feelings.Basically any thing that can make you feel a big change in your thought process in a matter of minutes from taking it or drinking it is a very different animal than what an antidepressant is.
As far as alcohol goes you will have to be the judge of that yourself but for me I felt ripped off when drinking alcohol and it made my inhibitions such that it was alot easier for me to talk myself into whatever drug I wanted to do.I can't have anything that provides a quick buzz.It would be nice if I could but I can't and alot of people put themselves on a slippery slope with this subject.  I quit ad meds because I felt they were only going to keep me at a level somewhere slightly above miserable but I think it is completely ok if someone thinks they need them.They are truly the lesser of all evils and have been proven to have some positive long term effects even when discontinued.I don't think this is the case with alcohol and benzos.I also quit aa because evidently I was one of the few "such unfortunates"that did not get it.But,Iho hundreds and hundreds  o meetings and worked steps before I arrived at that conclusion.So it's definitely worth trying and you don't have to be sober to go.Definitely do not be drunk at the time of the meeting though-lol.  The only requirement is a desire to be clean.

[dominosarah]

If you are getting these meds from a doctor and not using them to get high then that is okay.  Anxiety and depression is a valid medical issue.  When you smoke pot you smoke to get high.  You are looking for that euphoria.  Once we clean up from pills we always tell others to be careful with alcohol.  It is very easy to switch up addictions.

[Sarah11212]

I also took A/D's and Benzo's for many years and continue to take A/D's now...  And I would consider both of these to alter your state of mind.

[NeverDreamed]

Hey Script,

I know many will disagree with me.  However, my problem was vicodin/norco/ the occasional percocet.  I used to drink a lot, but completely social, my mom is a recovering 11yr sober alcoholic, and what that did to me and my family made me paranoid of how and when and why I drink.  Therefore, I always drank socially, NEVER alone.  In 2008 I got a DUI, that scared the living h3ll out of me... and since that day I don't drink often maybe a couple times a month, always socially, and I NEVER get behind the wheel of a car... So yes Alcohol is a mind altering substance, but aren't my anxiety/depression meds Effexor also?   So I do drink occasionally, and I take my effexor as prescribed, even less as i'm trying to get off of it, didn't know it had w/d symptoms of it's own... UGH!  but I was taking 20+ vic/norco/perc a day, and today is the first time in about 5 years, I can say i've ever been passed Day 5 with no pills...so for me that's success... I know I have a long road... I know alcohol can lead me down a dark road, but i've been allowed to drink for 11 years, and have never abused it...I hate the way I feel the next day after too much, so I choose not to indulge very often, and not as much as my DUI days...

[Sarah11212]

Posted before I was finished!
If we are talking, "mind altering", then I would have to say that A/D's and Benzo's would not be ok.  However,
Another- I was told at the first NA meeting I attended, that you were never to have alcohol or you couldn't attend the meetings.
I love myself an occasional glass of wine or two when we go out to eat or even at home sometimes.
So I'm curious as to others opinions about this.