38 days, and MORE questions!

[ScarrieAnne]

First, Im feeling pretty good with the exception of sleeping off and on for 3 hours, but I can nap today so its all good. I have a question, and I know who is going to be able to answer it, so Weaver I will be waiting, LOL. Maybe some others will also have some insight. Let me start by saying this doesn't pertain to my Suboxone withdrawal, its kind of a which came first the chicken or the egg? I have been wanting to post this question for quite some time, but held back for some reason, so here goes. Do you think certain drugs can trigger manic episodes, or are the manic episodes always there, just dormant? I am asking because when I used to abuse benzos, they would kick me into mania. (flight of ideas, rapid speech, excessive spending, excessive sexual activity, and all around crazy irrational s***) Let me give you some examples, These all happened on benzos with the exception of 1 time I was put on Cymbalta and drank hard liquor heavily the whole time I was on it. So twice I moved across the country on a whim, with people I barely know, only to stop benzos and then go into a deep depression for months. Once I was a weeks away (on benzos and drinking) from moving to Australia, with someone I barely knew, to apprentice to be a tattoo artist, until my loved ones hid my birth certificate so I could not obtain my passport. In hindsight thank the Universe or I would be buried in a shallow grave in the Outback somewhere. These are just a few examples of the issues I have had while on Xanax, Klonopin, and Valium. When I am not on these drugs I am a pretty even keeled person, with mild depression at times and anxiety, which is getting more and more manageable. So to sum it up do the meds cause the mania? I believe my grandmother was bipolar, she was an alcoholic her entire adult life and did many crazy things, like leave my grandfather, move to El Salvador with a new man, stayed for a year, caught dysentery (sp?) and had to come back to the U.S. This is just one example of her craziness. I have not been diagnosed with bipolar 1 or 2, because when I was seeing psychiatrists I lied to get my drugs. So! any opinions on this will be greatly appreciated, I know yall are not Doctors or Psychiatrists, but many of you have experience with this kind of thing. My main concern is passing this gene to my daughter, It seems to have skipped my mother, so maybe it will skip my offspring. Thanks for listening to me ramble, I really don't know where else to ask this, and I certainly don't expect a diagnoses! Just opinions will be appreciated. Much Love and Peace! C.

[ScarrieAnne]

Hey Dop. Yes the first post sounded familiar! As I read ALL the posts I have many doubts if bipolar is my issue, I believe Ive had hypomania episodes, but never mania. The people posting about this are on so many meds, its no wonder they feel the way they do! (no judgement) I don't understand how they can be pumped full of brain altering psych meds and expect to be anything but manic, depressed or psychotic. It so frightening to me to take these drugs and permanently alter my brain chemistry.(Ive done this enough!) I am still going to keep and eye and journal on my moods, but I am starting to believe that my particular brain chemistry just does not tolerate SSRIs or Benzos, I think this because Ive never had any kind of hypomania naturally, its always been chemically induced. So heres to staying clean, because it seems to be the only way I will stay sane!!!! Thank you very much for the link, it was very helpful, XX. C

[ScarrieAnne]

Hello and thank you, I am going to ck out that link as soon as I am done here. First, this isn't something I dwell on everyday, I just really want an answer if the benzos can cause this, or if its just dormant until psych drugs are introduced to the brain, maybe your link will help me out. I have read a lot about bipolar and it is in my family, for sure my grandmother, and thyroid disease also plays a part as well, which we both have/had. In the future I will monitor my moods and make a decision if I should seek any type of treatment, but I have a real distrust of the medical community, especially psychiatrists, as I have had some really horrifying experiences being put on the wrong drugs for things I knew I didn't have. Its just been something Ive been thinking about for a long time, I probably need to stay away from memoirs written by woman who have been properly diagnosed. The book Manic had a huge effect on me, because I went through many of the same childhood experiences and it just hit a little too close to home! I think bipolar 1 and 2 are being overly diagnosed today, so if I pursue any of this, I will try to find the most holistic way possible to deal with it, but as you said, I only have mania when Im on SSRIs and benzos. So moving on it was great to hear from you, I am doing pretty well on DAY 38, Its hard to believe Ive been at it this long already. I would never have gotten this far without my go to gurus, You and Weaver! I hope this finds you well, and that its not too wicked cold up in Boston! It can only get better from here, one day I will sleep like a baby, and the next day Im going to go buy myself a big huge chocolate cake to celebrate! If I sound a little scattered Ive been up since 1 am, so please forgive. Keep in touch, sending good karma and love your way! XXX. Dop

[EvolverU]

Hola Dop! ;)

Huge Props to you on Day 38. I'm glad that I was around today to catch this thread. (You're in good hands with my mate, Tony & I read your exchange with interest).

It's great to see you. You sound good! I heartily agree with Weaver that now is not really the time to get a good read on what might or might not be going on with you in terms of a 'mental health' diagnosis. I mean, you're not currently experiencing these episodes & like you mentioned, these episodes seem to be connected to Benzo/SSRI use if I read your description properly.

The NIMH estimates that only 2.6% of adults have bipolar disorder. (Whatever the parameters for that are!) I found this interesting (the part about the identical twins & outside factors listed under 'environmental':

'What Causes Bipolar Disorder?

There is no single cause for bipolar disorder. Indeed, like all psychological disorders, bipolar disorder is a complex condition with multiple contributing factors, including:

    Genetic: Bipolar disorder tends to run in families, so researchers believe there is a genetic predisposition for the disorder. Scientists also are exploring the presence of abnormalities on specific genes.

    Biological: Researchers believe that some neurotransmitters, including serotonin and dopamine, don’t function properly in individuals with bipolar disorder.

    Environmental: Outside factors, such as stress or a major life event, may trigger a genetic predisposition or potential biological reaction. For instance, if bipolar disorder was entirely genetic, both identical twins would have the disorder. But research reveals that one twin can have bipolar, while the other does not, implicating the environment as a potential contributing cause.'

As for the poisons in our food, water & environment causing an epidemic of neurological & other physical diseases, you know I'm a believer.

I thought this might interest you also, Carrie Anne:

(read the first post..sound familiar?):

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/657181-Mania-vs-Hypomania-and-Benzos

Our brain/body chemistries are so complex & miraculous & are nothing to mess with. Unfortunately, we still don't fully understand the actions & side-effects of half the pharmaceuticals they flood the market with. So, I find it really possible that these drugs, might very well be your culprit. I've seen some horrendous effects of benzos up close & personal. They're a very powerful & detrimental drug, imo & they're handed out like candy.

I hope your holiday went well & that you're having better time of it as you knock those days down. Keep up the great work & no, don't ever trade that empathy, intelligence & creativity for anything! You've got your first real shot @ exploring & developing them fully now! :)

A Hug Your Way,

dop

[ScarrieAnne]

It is comforting that I am not the only one! My husband is a saint for putting up with my crap, we have separated over it 3 times, every 3 years, which makes me think of the bipolar thing, because it seems to be on a 3 year cycle, but its been 6 years since my last manic episode,if that is what it was. I had a minor one a cpl years ago but managed to keep it under control and regain my senses . I think a lot of that has to do with getting pregnant, staying clean the entire pregnancy and having my daughter, I would never in a million years put her through that, and for the most part I have steered clear of benzos, with a few slip ups here and there, but I didn't let it get out of hand. It is extremely dangerous to take benzos while on subs, as it can put you into respiratory failure, so that was a huge incentive! I still want to know if the drugs cause the mania or if the mania has always been there. Lots of questions for my therapist Monday! I will let you know what she says. XOXO. C. P.S I think the statistics for bipolars being addicts as well is around 60%. That's eye opening to say the least!

[Sugarmagnolia1975]

i have had the same kind of episodes. I've just up and left out of nowhere, didn't leave a note or anything. I don't know how the people in my life dealt with all my BS. I wish I could remember what I was taking then. I was on my subutex but I was taking something for anxiety/depression. When I read what you said it hit me like a ton of bricks. Oh boy have I been there.

[ScarrieAnne]

Sounds good, my friend! I promise I wont stay on the internet looking for symptoms. I have read quite a few memoirs written by bipolar people, and that's when I got a little concerned, Any kind of mental disorder interests me, so I tend to focus on that sort of thing in my reading. I will be pming you with any questions or concerns or anything new I find out. I knew I liked you too, you were my first friend on MH. Intelligence is what draws me to people, and Annie, she is the absolute greatest and has helped me immensely. I am going to put the bipolar issue on hold for a bit, still discuss it with my therapist, but like you said, I need a solid baseline of who I am after this w/d is over, or at least mostly over. Keep on informing people, you are the rockstar guru around here! XX. C.

[weaver71]

Oh yeah, if you see a bipolar therapist and refuse drugs, that is one of the most common symptoms of the condition. Last time I saw my doc, I walked in and said, "Well, Im just hear to tell you I am still being a typical bipolar non compliant client." She just laughed and said, "Well, I kind of expected that."

They can't make you take meds, they can only suggest them, unless you are a danger to yourself or others. My doc thinks i could be a danger to myself, like I might try to jump a train and get killed or swim out into a mountain lake in winter. I am diagnosed bipolar 1, so mania is what causes most of my consequences, depression just makes me catatonic or unmotivated. There are natural approaches to bipolar, the research was shut down back in the 70's, though some research is picking up again. The amino acid studies and CBT have been most interesting to me. I can tell you some of the things I have tried, but you are right, you need a little more time off sub to really take inventory of the base you.

Just know I am here and willing to listen and share my experience. When I get busy, I still check my PM's, so don't be shy. I knew I liked you, the minute I saw you hook up with my good friend Annie, I could tell you were a thinker. My suggestion is, don't avoid the subject of bipolar, but don't go learning all the symptoms and checking to see if you have them. As you have symptoms, discuss them, try some things, but don't let yourself become a victim. I did that, being a victim didn't really help anything. I'm trying to change the world's perception, so everyone wishes they were bipolar. How does that sound?

[ScarrieAnne]

Bipolar or not, I understand what you mean. I wouldn't change my intelligence, creativity, or empathy for anything in the world, Ever since I was a small child I knew I was put here to do something. Something big to change the world? I don't know, but something, and Ive felt that way my whole life. I really don't fit in this world either, I really cant believe what is going 99.9% of the time. So whatever happens down the road, I am not going to change who I am because some Dr. tells me to. I feel better. Thanks again Weaver the Rockstar! XX.C.

[ScarrieAnne]

Forgot to add that I would like very much to read your old journals if you don't mind pulling them up. Thanks again!

[weaver71]

I wanted to add, just because your family has a history of bipolar, doesn't mean you have it. Just because you feel manic some and depressed some, doesn't mean you are bipolar. Everyone has mood swings, to some extent, bipolar just makes them amplify by a lot. Early recovery leads many of us to believe we have chemical differences in our brain and need drugs to heal. I think that is just addict thinking, often times.

I am still waiting to see if my daughter is bipolar, she is a lot like me in many ways. She is 14 in less than a year, that is when it started for me, or became more obvious. I figure it won't be so hard for her, because I am willing and know how to cope with it. I finally stopped fearing bipolar, that has really made it much easier. There seems to be a mass hysteria about bipolar. I don't buy it. Nobody seems to focus on all the great thinkers and achievers of history with bipolar order, they just focus on the "unhealthy bipolar" examples. I like to mention Michaelangelo, Galileo, Sir Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Carey, and if you were to psychoanalyze the Christian martyrs and disciples, I imagine many of them would be medicated today as well. I may be crazy, but I am going to keep my delusions of grandeur, they are what keep me pushing to make the world better. I think my delusions are healthier than the apathy and cynicism  I witness so often around me.

If my kid is bipolar, I hope to help her find ways to use her passion and genius. Mania is my inspiration and depression is my empathy and there is nothing wrong with being inspired and empathetic, as long as I don't hurt anyone. Maybe I don't fit into this world, as I am told I should, but I fit in great on opiates, being drug free is the abnormal way these days. The majority of Americans are on some kind of drug, AD's, antipsychotics, analgesics, SSRI's, OTC, and on and on. That is what is normal, so if I am a freak, then I feel like I am doing something right. Kind of like when your teen tells you they hate you, you can just smile and say, "Yes dear, thank you, If my kid hates me as a teen, I must be on the right track." Also like one of my sayings from my own teen years, "The more you act like Jesus, the more likely you will be crucified."

Forget normal, lets shoot for extraordinary. Delusional? Maybe, but that's okay, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. As you can see, I have thought about this a few times. Addiction taught me, nothing changes if nothing changes, so if I just follow the crowd and medicate, as my doctor and therapist would like, then how will we ever find new, non-medicated ways to deal with bipolar. I am willing to be the guinea pig on this one. Check back with me in a year, I may singing a whole different tune, but I will never stop searching for truth and ways to live it. That is my favorite symptom of my bipolar, I crave and long for purpose and meaning, always have. I like the dynamic and quick intelligence that mania gives me too, but inspiration trumps all else in my mind.

[ScarrieAnne]

By the way, I read your switching info yesterday, it was very interesting, indeed. The thing is I just don't know if I should see someone or not. I am not at the stage you are and psych meds scare me terribly. I was put on many different antidepressants over the years and had some bad reactions. I have never had a manic sthat I can recall unless I was under the influence of benzo (or Cymbalta). but have suffered from depression as young as 7 years old. I have read that a lot of people with hypothyroidism are at increased risk of being bipolar, and I have that, of course. Like you said most bipolar people struggle with addiction .I briefly talked to my therapist about the benzo mania and she said it could be just the drugs causing it, I guess I will have to wait and see what happens once Ive been clean awhile. w/d has not had any effect thus far. I will admit, Ive been kicking this around in my head for years, but fear has kept me from doing anything about it. If it can be managed without meds, I would be a lot more inclined to go to a Dr. Ive read a lot on the Feingold diet, and his claim is that the artificial food dyes, sweeteners and chemicals in our food can cause a whole host of mental problems, from adhd in children to even bipolar. Just some food for thought. no pun intended. Thank you again, I have a lot of thinking to do now, that diagnoses in particular causes a lot of fear for me, mostly because of the meds. I don't care about the label, its just the meds. Surely somewhere in the world there is a more holistic approach to treating this. I will keep you updated, and I thank you for answering my questions. Take Care of yourself!!!!! XX. C.

[weaver71]

I was just studying bipolar switch process yesterday. Yes, medications do switch people into mania, especially antidepressants,  Stimulants, depressants , little less with benzos, SSRI's having least likelihood of switching bipolar moods. Switching Process is the name of the studies done on the instant change from mania to depression, but is mostly studied as depression switches to mania, apparently more common an instant switch in studies. The issue I have found with the clinical studies, is there are not enough bipolar off of meds to be be studied, I am one of the only BP1 off all meds I know, maybe the only one I know. There are more studies on the metabolism, side effects, and effectiveness of meds than the nature of bipolar. We know very little about what it is or why and how it happens.

Now for my personal experience. I had one heck of a detox, I felt pretty out there for almost a year. I was on 250mgs of street methadone, I took enough drugs to kill me a few times, but somehow lived. My doctor, after hearing some stories agrees, my mania is possibly what kept me alive in respiratory arrest. Okay, so I thought my recessed receptors from opioid addiction were, in fact, myself having learned to cope with bipolar. The opioids dulled my emotions, like it does everyone. We all say we want to be the old us, but I never said that. You can check my posts. From day one I was looking to create a whole new me and life experience. The bipolar part of the old me came back ten fold.

The difference in recovery I experienced was I started to go manic as my receptors healed. 120 days clean was a real bad time, at about 14 months I totally went nuts and had a psychotic break. I was trying to wait 2 years off opiates to deal with bipolar, didn't quite make it. Had I known then what I know now, I would have been in therapy for dual diagnosis, bipolar/addict, from day one. I can pull up some old journals for you to read, if you want to see why I have that opinion now, Bipolar and addiction are more similar, I think, than most other mental issues are to each other. Many, many bipolar go through addiction of some kind.

All that being said, I was finally desperate enough to take meds to get my mind back. It was about 5 months of 3 different meds to get me back to having my memory and not so confused. I didn't feel like me on psych meds and my family said i didn't seem like me.  I have found that CBT and changing my thinking process has helped more than anything. My moods still switch, but I have more awareness now. Had I learned some of the coping skills and changed my perception sooner, I may could have avoided going fully psychotic. My opinion, bipolar have to be very careful about what meds they take and stop taking. When we quit meds, it is important to watch closely what happens. Taking meds or stopping meds seems to have a switch process affect.

It is also common for initial acceptance of a bipolar diagnoses to lead to a cycle. So drugs, events, and random switches all seem to take place with bipolar. I like being bipolar, though it is very challenging at times. I call it bipolar order, I am not ill, my mind simply works different. I don't see the problem with enthusiasm about delusions of grandeur, how else are we ever going to find creative ways to do what has never been done? I don't even mind crying violently about the injustice and corruption of this world, how else will we ever find creative ways to make those things better? The thing that I don't like, is losing complete control of my mind and ending up doing things that hurt other people.

In my opinion, if I'm not 5150, then I am okay. I don't suggest my approach to anyone or even know if it is a good way to live. So far, so good, but I can say I would have not made it without my doctor, therapist, friends, family, and all the learning I have done. I should have treated bipolar more seriously early on, no matter how I decided to deal with it. If you think you may have bipolar order, I would get a specialist in that department ASAP. Not out of fear, but out of genuine interest to reach a good life you can keep.