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AA & NA vs SMART Recovery Program
When people talk about aftercare it always entails AA or NA but what about the SMART Recovery program? I have been reading alot about it lately and have even attended an online meeting. I like the way they approach addiction therapy. Anyone can google it and see why their program is about. The downside is that it is not as available in as many places as aa and na. And I also would like to hear what people have to say about attending an online meeting when it's not possible to go to a meeting?
I have learned so much from this thread. I started NA because I have a close friend who is a member. Like many of you, I didn't know that so many other options even exist. I usually research things to death and it just never occurred to me that something else is out there. Thank you all. This has given me a lot to think about.
I wanna throw my opinion out there about a couple things.
First, in MY opinion, I think the reason why courts and most people feel that AA or 12 steps is their only option is because of ignorance. And I am not applying a negative connotation with the word, "ignorance." What I mean is, they simply are unaware that other programs even exist. Personally, I had never heard of any other treatment program until I joined Medhelp. I had never even heard of Alonon (is that how its spelled?) either, and that seems to be pretty popular. If I had known about Alonon, I would have joined YEARS ago, because my mother's alcoholism has caused me so much pain and depression in my life. People are just uninformed about others. Maybe the others lack funding to promote themselves as much as AA or 12 step? I don't know the cause, but if I had time to research I would. Unfortunately, school takes up all my time and I shouldn't even be posting right now b/c of all my home work haha! Anyway, U think another reason courts enforce AA or 12 step is because whether we want to admit it or not, religion is pushed in America. As for other countries, I don't know if this applies. Especially in small towns...many people are frowned upon if they are unreligious. I am agnostic (I consider myself spiritual, not religious) but I often find myself afraid to tell people this because I feel I will be judged/preached to/looked down upon. But yeah, the push for AA/12 step is caused by a number of reasons.
As for group therapy, I believe it (just like EVERY form of theraphy) has its pros and cons. I don't think there is a single therapy that lacks a con...they all have their goods and bads. When I think of group therapy, I think of this forum. I like knowing that I'm not "the only one" out there who feels the way I feel. I like knowing that people accept me and are supportive of me. On the other hand, I'm not sure I would be comfortable expressing myself so deeply in person to people I hardly know. But there are some people out there who would rather tell people they don't know how they feel instead of telling those who are close to them. It all depends on the person. One on one therapy has its pros and cons. We're all different, we just have to figure out what works best for US. We cannot all be grouped into a single category. Medhelp is where I go when I need to feel like I'm not alone. My fiance, best friend, and dad is where I go when I need to talk about my deepest feelings (some people prefer a therapist). College is what I do to stay busy and move forward in life. Like I previously said, it doesn't matter WHAT we do...as long as we're doing something other than drugs.
First, in MY opinion, I think the reason why courts and most people feel that AA or 12 steps is their only option is because of ignorance. And I am not applying a negative connotation with the word, "ignorance." What I mean is, they simply are unaware that other programs even exist. Personally, I had never heard of any other treatment program until I joined Medhelp. I had never even heard of Alonon (is that how its spelled?) either, and that seems to be pretty popular. If I had known about Alonon, I would have joined YEARS ago, because my mother's alcoholism has caused me so much pain and depression in my life. People are just uninformed about others. Maybe the others lack funding to promote themselves as much as AA or 12 step? I don't know the cause, but if I had time to research I would. Unfortunately, school takes up all my time and I shouldn't even be posting right now b/c of all my home work haha! Anyway, U think another reason courts enforce AA or 12 step is because whether we want to admit it or not, religion is pushed in America. As for other countries, I don't know if this applies. Especially in small towns...many people are frowned upon if they are unreligious. I am agnostic (I consider myself spiritual, not religious) but I often find myself afraid to tell people this because I feel I will be judged/preached to/looked down upon. But yeah, the push for AA/12 step is caused by a number of reasons.
As for group therapy, I believe it (just like EVERY form of theraphy) has its pros and cons. I don't think there is a single therapy that lacks a con...they all have their goods and bads. When I think of group therapy, I think of this forum. I like knowing that I'm not "the only one" out there who feels the way I feel. I like knowing that people accept me and are supportive of me. On the other hand, I'm not sure I would be comfortable expressing myself so deeply in person to people I hardly know. But there are some people out there who would rather tell people they don't know how they feel instead of telling those who are close to them. It all depends on the person. One on one therapy has its pros and cons. We're all different, we just have to figure out what works best for US. We cannot all be grouped into a single category. Medhelp is where I go when I need to feel like I'm not alone. My fiance, best friend, and dad is where I go when I need to talk about my deepest feelings (some people prefer a therapist). College is what I do to stay busy and move forward in life. Like I previously said, it doesn't matter WHAT we do...as long as we're doing something other than drugs.
Ok I so i am beginning to understand the politics of it but even if all that is true it still doesn't necessarily take anything away from the meetings and the program itself. It seems to have helped soo many people since it's creation. But by the same token there are other options and that's what I am exploring because at the end of the day You have to find a setting that You feel comfortable in...in order to increase your chances at success. I really know so very little about Recovery in general and this is all very new to me. Addiction is new to me. Detox was new to me. It's all new and I am just sailing around this huge ocean trying to find my way. Thanks for all these great comments!
Interesting comment Vicki.
I think there are a number of reasons why the courts continue to mandate AA/NA attendance. Generally I think there is an element of ignorance of alternative treatments but they should really know better given the number of landmark cases where madated 12 step attendance has been declared uncontitutional due to their overt religiousity.
All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:
the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, September 7, 2007.
sourced from orangepapers.
Most people who appear before judges arent aware that they MUST be offered alternatives but few have the wherewithall,inclination,time and money to challenge a judges ruling. I also think many judges assume a high level of apathetic compliance and are uninterested in investigating the variety of evidence based alternatives. They dont want to change.
I also think that many judges act as surreptitious agents on AA/NA's behalf. Its no secret that 12 step members have been encouraged to ingratiate themselves with influential community members so they can extend their sphere of influence and "recruit"fresh members. .The courts have effectively become a feeding mechanism for AA/NA groups.
"By telling the A.A. story to clergy members, doctors, judges, educators, employers, or police officials if we know them well enough to further the A.A. cause, or to help out a fellow member"
The Little Red Book, Hazelden, page 128.
"By educating doctors, hospitals, ministers along this line, you will surely pick up some strong prospects after a bit".
PASS IT ON, The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., pages 225-226
I think Bufe said it best when he wrote...
......." AA has taken pains to ensure that it's the only game in town. AA members have set up "educational" and "medical" front groups to promote AA and its ideology (especially the 12 steps and the disease concept of alcoholism). In addition to promoting AA and its concepts, the hidden AA members (in "professional" guise) in these front groups have repeatedly and viciously attacked critics of AA and researchers who've published findings contrary to AA dogma. They have also attempted to suppress alternative alcoholism treatment approaches — and to a great extent they've succeeded."
== From Chas. Bufe's AA: Cult or Cure, Preface to Second Edition
I think there are a number of reasons why the courts continue to mandate AA/NA attendance. Generally I think there is an element of ignorance of alternative treatments but they should really know better given the number of landmark cases where madated 12 step attendance has been declared uncontitutional due to their overt religiousity.
All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:
the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, September 7, 2007.
sourced from orangepapers.
Most people who appear before judges arent aware that they MUST be offered alternatives but few have the wherewithall,inclination,time and money to challenge a judges ruling. I also think many judges assume a high level of apathetic compliance and are uninterested in investigating the variety of evidence based alternatives. They dont want to change.
I also think that many judges act as surreptitious agents on AA/NA's behalf. Its no secret that 12 step members have been encouraged to ingratiate themselves with influential community members so they can extend their sphere of influence and "recruit"fresh members. .The courts have effectively become a feeding mechanism for AA/NA groups.
"By telling the A.A. story to clergy members, doctors, judges, educators, employers, or police officials if we know them well enough to further the A.A. cause, or to help out a fellow member"
The Little Red Book, Hazelden, page 128.
"By educating doctors, hospitals, ministers along this line, you will surely pick up some strong prospects after a bit".
PASS IT ON, The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., pages 225-226
I think Bufe said it best when he wrote...
......." AA has taken pains to ensure that it's the only game in town. AA members have set up "educational" and "medical" front groups to promote AA and its ideology (especially the 12 steps and the disease concept of alcoholism). In addition to promoting AA and its concepts, the hidden AA members (in "professional" guise) in these front groups have repeatedly and viciously attacked critics of AA and researchers who've published findings contrary to AA dogma. They have also attempted to suppress alternative alcoholism treatment approaches — and to a great extent they've succeeded."
== From Chas. Bufe's AA: Cult or Cure, Preface to Second Edition
HI Mike I believe group therapy is the best you have other to share with and yes watch them fall but also watch them succeed and want what they have N/A was a good fit for me still is but my methadone addiction went a lot deeper into my physiciy thats why I switched to a counselor but there is nothing that replaces a hug from a friend when you come into the room looking like a train wreck human iteraction is all part of the healing process if I had to opt for one or the other I would choose the groops its worked for me and many of our members the main thing is you get pluged in somewhere and work there progam good luck and God bless......Gnarly
So Gnarly let me ask you this... Do you think that in general it's better for a recovering addict to be around other recovering addicts? Maybe there is no 'in general' ... But I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Because i read a post earlier where someone said that they didn't want to be around that environment. And I kind of feel the same. People relapse and in that environment u see it up close and personal. It even bothers me a bit when I see it happen here with someone I have been talking to. Maybe that's a good thing to see for some, to act as a constant warning but i personally am not sure how that would make me feel when I really know the person....hopeless or empowering. That's why I am really trying to find something that fits me. One on one sounds great....it's what I have been searching for.....so far to no avail.
HI there are many forms of aftercare both in groups and individual you need to find what works for you for me N/A was my ticket out of the recreational stuff including the booze
but for my methadone addiction it took a substance abuse counselor the better part of a yr toconvince me I had a problem .....Paul and I meet weekly and work on my rediscovery now I still stop in on an N/A meeting from time to time but aftercare is not one size fits all the main thing is you get pluged into something..........Gnarly
but for my methadone addiction it took a substance abuse counselor the better part of a yr toconvince me I had a problem .....Paul and I meet weekly and work on my rediscovery now I still stop in on an N/A meeting from time to time but aftercare is not one size fits all the main thing is you get pluged into something..........Gnarly
Wow!! Really great responses from everyone! Thank you all so much for getting involved! To those regular posters and those ...not so often ones. I am definately not trying to steer this one way or another. I know as much about NA as I do about SMART , which is very little. But I am trying to learn about both. hellc ...some awesome , informative responses! Vicki, soready , Keith..... I agree with you all... And GA_ ... Thanks so much! deadgamegrrlll... Just what I was looking for. It seems nobody has anything negative to say about SMART and I definately agree that recovery has to be about what works best for you.....I think of kk as an example. It might be the same for many...but it doesn't have to be and I guess that's what this thread comes down to! You cannot be told what to think, however you can be given tools to shape your thinking so that you are more productive in your own life and in society. It's how and if you use those tools (whatever they may be) that matters. Not where u got them from!
I personally think it's just the size and scope of those programs that make them invincible.
and the lifetime membership thing.
i sure would like an alternative. i don't like all the rigours and extra challenges that are associated with it. i am already overwhelmed.
and the lingo has always bothered me.
too robotic.
sorry, i must be offending a lot of people here.
that is what i do best, offend, and that is one good reason to get clean.
i'm told i'm more arguementative whilst high.
sigh.
i don't see it.
and the lifetime membership thing.
i sure would like an alternative. i don't like all the rigours and extra challenges that are associated with it. i am already overwhelmed.
and the lingo has always bothered me.
too robotic.
sorry, i must be offending a lot of people here.
that is what i do best, offend, and that is one good reason to get clean.
i'm told i'm more arguementative whilst high.
sigh.
i don't see it.
Jeremy: That's so true! Court mandated AA implies it's the "only way". That's like saying Catholicism is the one, true religion! It isn't for so many people...
Do you think it's ignorance or laziness by the court and government agencies?
They just don't really know WHAT is available so they use AA as a "wastebasket"? That's what I think.
People have choices and they need to know that...
Do you think it's ignorance or laziness by the court and government agencies?
They just don't really know WHAT is available so they use AA as a "wastebasket"? That's what I think.
People have choices and they need to know that...
You are absolutely right. There shouldnt be a "one size fits all" approach to recovery but unfortunately there is. We see this when addicts/alcoholics are mandated to attend 12 step groups by the courts. We see this in family courts when parents are compelled to attend 12 step meetings before they are granted visitation with their children. We see this when insurance companies refuse to pay for medical treatments until the addict/claimant is sober and attends 12 step meetings. 12 step groups are often the default recommendation by countless government/civilian organisations.The November 2002 issue of the Grapevine (AA periodical) admitted over 60% of AA members were introduced to the program under duress, ie.court pressure.
Anyone who is familiar with 12 step literature will find it littered with inferences about their program being the one true way to treat addiction/alcoholism. 12 step programs position themselves as the appointed gatekeeper to meaningful recovery. Members of alternative programs are referred perjeratively (by 12 steppers) as dry drunks or white knucklers. Their sobriety is widely regarded as having less merit than their own "12 step Recovery.
Whilst some forum members may pay generous lip service regarding the virtues of alternative treatment plans, I find their advocacy is insincere and disingenuous given the content/dogma of their favoured "program"
Oh well. All the best on your journey
Kind regards Jeremy. Ex addict.
Anyone who is familiar with 12 step literature will find it littered with inferences about their program being the one true way to treat addiction/alcoholism. 12 step programs position themselves as the appointed gatekeeper to meaningful recovery. Members of alternative programs are referred perjeratively (by 12 steppers) as dry drunks or white knucklers. Their sobriety is widely regarded as having less merit than their own "12 step Recovery.
Whilst some forum members may pay generous lip service regarding the virtues of alternative treatment plans, I find their advocacy is insincere and disingenuous given the content/dogma of their favoured "program"
Oh well. All the best on your journey
Kind regards Jeremy. Ex addict.
My ex-BF went to SMART meetings regularly and really liked them. The only problem was, as you have noted, there aren't nearly as many, so he usually ended up going to at least one AA meeting a week also just to keep busy and meet sober people. He really related to the basic philosophy and the problem solving focus of the meetings, without the religious overtones.
I think its fair to say that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to recovery.
Yeah, youre right Mike. 12 step programs have been actively and surreptitiously promoted by forum members for as long as I can remember.
Anyways, in resonse to your initial post, I have never been to SMART (Self Management and Recovery Therapy) meetings myself but I have read/heard many positve comments from current/graduated members. From what I can gather the major differences between SMART and 12 step groups are;
a) it is a rational/ evidence based program and was developed by credentialled experts.
b) it teaches personal empowerment rather than powerlessness.
c)it is goal oriented and has an exit clause. SMART members eventually graduate and arent locked into lifelong membership.
d) SMART is flexible/adaptable. It utilises modern therapy methods (CBT/REBT/MI) and discards older/less effective therapies. This is in stark contrast to AA/NA's rigid adherance to an outdated and obsolete philosophy.
SMART isnt the only alternative to faith based, 12 step programs.
There is also;
- WFS/ Women for Soriety
- Lifering Secular Recovery
- SOS/ Secular Organisations for Sobriety
All the best on your journey.
Kind regards Jeremy. (Ex Addict)
Anyways, in resonse to your initial post, I have never been to SMART (Self Management and Recovery Therapy) meetings myself but I have read/heard many positve comments from current/graduated members. From what I can gather the major differences between SMART and 12 step groups are;
a) it is a rational/ evidence based program and was developed by credentialled experts.
b) it teaches personal empowerment rather than powerlessness.
c)it is goal oriented and has an exit clause. SMART members eventually graduate and arent locked into lifelong membership.
d) SMART is flexible/adaptable. It utilises modern therapy methods (CBT/REBT/MI) and discards older/less effective therapies. This is in stark contrast to AA/NA's rigid adherance to an outdated and obsolete philosophy.
SMART isnt the only alternative to faith based, 12 step programs.
There is also;
- WFS/ Women for Soriety
- Lifering Secular Recovery
- SOS/ Secular Organisations for Sobriety
All the best on your journey.
Kind regards Jeremy. (Ex Addict)
The best program for anyone is the one that works for you. I"ve seen many suggestions in this forum,from free programs like na and aa and religion to expensive solutions to private counsling to etc,etc. Soready,,you may be suprised at how many addicts you know. Lets not forget 3 cheers for this site, it helps many who are addicted or dependent,,ya cant fix it till ya talk about it.
Mike in France
I just want to say I love reading your posts. Please keep all the encouragement you have coming! I am a big AA gal, but I would love to try Smart Recovery also. It can't be anything but good for me, as long as I am keeping involved in my AA meetings. I immediately went to the site for Smart Recovery and tried to figure out when and how to access the online meetings! I haven't figured it out yet, but I will. I do AA meetings on "recovery chat." They have them at 5pm and 10pm EST daily.
Take good care.
I just want to say I love reading your posts. Please keep all the encouragement you have coming! I am a big AA gal, but I would love to try Smart Recovery also. It can't be anything but good for me, as long as I am keeping involved in my AA meetings. I immediately went to the site for Smart Recovery and tried to figure out when and how to access the online meetings! I haven't figured it out yet, but I will. I do AA meetings on "recovery chat." They have them at 5pm and 10pm EST daily.
Take good care.
Def kk! You have done it the best way for you and it's great seeing you doing this and feeling so good about it! I'm with sandstone...nodding in agreement! Thanks for posting' ;) and yeah Riz ...proper reply....goodnight for real this time .....iPod goes offline right................................,......,,NOW
i understand that,when you have been through a rubbish time we(I) tend to notice natural human behaviour more, and get "high" off it.
Not becoming complacent is the key to sucess,thinking we have cracked it,has tricked many a good man(or woman)
Not becoming complacent is the key to sucess,thinking we have cracked it,has tricked many a good man(or woman)
with regard to programs - you can scroll to the top of this thread and see my response about those.... :)
Nope, I was nodding my head in agreement...It's great to read about teachers (even student ones) doing an awesome job - the media just focuses on the few bad ones.....sounds like you're off to a great start in your career...
Sandy
Sandy
...opps posted on accident. Many are assuming, "this isn't going to work, she needs to be in a program." Well guess what...I AM in a program. Just bc it isn't nationally recognized doesn't mean it or I will fail. I am in MY program and its working quite well.
I don't think it matters at all WHAT plan we have for recovery, just that we have one. My recovery plan is my college, my family, my friends, and my kids (by kids, I mean the high school students...I'm student teaching this semester.) That's what keeps me sober. I'm at the high school 2 days a week and I look at those kiddos and I get "high" off their joy and their sweet comments to me. I get "high" when I see they finally understand what I'm trying to teach and that little light bulb goes off in their head and they're instantly full of confidence and think to themselves (heck, sometimes say it aloud) "wow, I CAN do this." Then when I'm around the people who love me, I get "high" off their love, humor, and joy. I could go on and on and on. I know some of you are sitting there shaking your heads thinking, I should say assuming,
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