I am new to this forum and I have some concerns after reading many posts. I suffer with Lupus, Sjogrens, RA, Sciatica, Fibromyalgia, and Mixxed Connective tissue disease. With all of these, I suffer with alot of joint/muscle pain. I see a pain mangement doctor once a month and currently I am on 100mcg Fentenyl every 72 hours and hydrocodone 10/325 every 8 hours for breakthrough pain. I don't take the hydrocodone unless my pain levels get up to 7/8 on a scale of 0-10 but I do wear the patch and change it at 72 hours. I have been on this regime for a year. Within a year they have increased my paych to the dose it's at now which has been for 3 months. I have not worried about addiction because I am only using this for pain not to get high. I only take the hydrocodone maybe 1-2 every 3-5 days when I do have breakthrough pain that I can't stand. If I don't have breakthough pain I don't take the hydrocodone and sometimes I go back to the clinc and will have 60-65 pills left, then they'll give me 90 more for the next month. Needless to say I have alot of hydrocodones always left over. Now my concern is about addiction and reading everything about fentenyl really scares me. I don't want to have to live on pain medication or be on this patch forever and would like to get off of it. I know the doctor will taper me off and at my next visit I am going to talk to him about it. I am finally doing better pain wise at this dose so maybe I could come down some. My question is will I have these awful withdrawls from this patch as I have read and with all my conditions will I always have to be on pain meds as long as I have pain. I can function when I'm not in pain but I can't when I hurt. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Can't live without them, don't want to live with them?
you are not addicted, you are dependent. sound like you need this medication because of pain, so why do you want to get off of it? won't you still be in alot of pain without it? you might want to go to the pain management forum instead of the addiction forum.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I will be in pain without but I am scared that I will get addicted . I have posted this also on pain management forum. It sounds to me that most everyone one on this forum started out as I have and has become addicted at some time. Isn't dependent the same?
I agree that pain meds are a blessing for those whos lives are severely affected by pain. However I am always concerned for anyone taking pain meds because there will come a time when you might cross over into addiction. I know thats how it happened for me. At first you start feeling low energy and pain amps up again so you get your meds upped. Then you find that the ucky low energy feeling comes earlier so you take the meds sooner than you should. And so on....
For the first few years I was on my pain meds I only took them when my pain reached a certain level. That meant that when I really needed it I hadnt built up too much tolerance and it worked. I dont know when I crossed the line into addiction but probably about 3 years in was the first time I actually ran out of meds early and had to lie to the doc or buy off the street. I still feel very shameful about that.
Another thing that snuck up on me was my body playing tricks on me to get more pain meds. I started on the meds for one reason and now have pain everywhere, even a needle kills me. I can now say that I dont know what level of pain I am in since my senses are all messed up.
This is the possible negative road. I would also like to make some suggestions. I think we should treat our pain meds with the utmost caution. Some ways to do that would be to get your meds weekly or biweekly. Get them in a blister pack so its easy to see if you are going over. Most pharmacies do this for free but if yours doesnt you should look around. You can also talk to your pharmacist about your concerns and get them involved, they want to be helpful.
Another suggestion is to never give up on trying other ways to deal with pain. Try everything and anything, old world or new age. You might stumble onto something that helps.
If your pain is affecting your activities of daily life and the pain meds help then you are using them for the right reason. Just be careful because the line between the right reason and the wrong reason is gradual, tricky and extremely difficult to see.
Thanks for your info. I have been getting hot and cold sweats, is this all part of the of the narcotic? I'm not in pain at the moment and I changed my patch last night and not due to change until Saturday, plus I haven't needed to take any hydrocodones since Sunday and I just took 2 then. Are these sweats indicative of addition?
I dont know if your sweats are a part of addiction for you. I have been tapering and having lots of sweats and I just blame it on menopause. I think the addiction part is if you take your meds to deal with this symptom and not the pain. The moment you take your meds to deal with anything other than pain you need to worry. Could be sweats, low energy, feeling ucky in general, etc.
Only you can tell, but just be mindful of how and why you take the meds. Hope this helps.
Thanks for all your comments. I only take the pain meds for pain. I'll struggle with breakthrough pain until I can't stand it any more. I don't believe I am addicted but that fine line between addiction and dependence is very scarry. I don't depend on my pain meds to do things, I do things until I can't stand the pain then I'll take something. Is this the same thing? Getting off the fentenyl is also very scarry but since I've been on this for 12 months I was just wondering if getting off of it would be difficult to function I quess I won't know until I've tried because I am still having breakthrough pain. This sounds like a visious cycle and it's confusing me. The addiction feeling is that the high? Because when I had that high feeling then I would avoid taking any pain meds. Notice the operative word "had" I don't get that high feeling any more, does that mean I've cross that line. I'm not reaching to get that feeling and I don't like it but I'm asking because it seems like our bodies seem to do it automactilly. I've taken hydrocodone many times before and was able to stop after 30-60 days cold turkey with no withdrawl symptoms but being on this now for a year has me really concerned. Thanks for lisenting sorry I didn't mean to make this so long.
I have fibromyalgia and other health issues. I was prescribed hydrocodone for this along with klonipin. I never took it to get high either but as the years went on the pain got worse and I needed more. Then I started feeling like I don't care about anything the past 2 or 3 years. Just recently I found this site and realized it has in fact turned into at least dependancy if not outright addiction. I started to take it when I didn't really need it. This started recently and got me scared. So I would just be very honest with yourself. It's so easy to lie to yourself and rationalize.
That's just my 2 cents worth.
Hope you make out fine. It is not easy, is it?
I was taking T3 for RA pain for 15 years.Almost 3 months ago I realized that I was looking forward to the high that they gave me more than for the pain relief.I always spaced them out every 4 hours and never took more tha 10/day but when I went ct I had withdrawal pain that was worse than the original pain.I persisted with otc meds at recommended doses and lo and behold...my rebound pain went awy and I am controlled on otc pain meds and even less than recommended doses.Narcotics cause more rebound pain ,the more you take the more you get.All pain meds can causerebound,but non narcotics cause it to a much much lesser extent.It is good not to be constipated anymore or to wake up each morning in pain.Most people on these forums notice that when the rebound pain subsides,they are in far less pain if any.
You have so many pain issues that I would not know where to start.I read an article by a pain specialist that feels for narcotics to effective for pain relief,the patient has to take a drug holiday for a few days each couple of months.Also he felt that narcotics should be prescribed in small amounts and not increased readily because of the tolerance factor.This sounds quite rational and if narcotics are restricted even more perhaps patients would reinforce the pain relief with other things non narcotic as well and not only rely on the narcotics.I certainly is difficult to treat chronic pain.I feel for you.The long acting pain relievers,patch included are deemed not to cause rebound pain,but certainly can cause tolerance.
Rebound pain is the pain you get between doses of narcotics.These narcotics suppress the body's natural endorphins and when there is little or no drug in the system,we feel pain even worse than the original pain because we are not producing our own endorphins.It is a vicious circle in pain relief and difficult to control.
No wonder I'm confused, so is breakthough pain the same. I have had to increase this fentenly patch from 25 now to 100 within 11 months,thats tolerance but at 60 hours. close to the 72 hour when I'm soppose to change it then I begin to have breakthrough pain. Is that tolerance or rebound pain. I was thinking it was breakthrough pain because of the decrease of the narcotic in my system but then again that sounds like tolerence.
Yes all my conditions cause the same kind of pain, I just don't want to be in pain and I don't want to live on pain mdication.
I was in an accident and prescribed vicodin.. after many years, now taking norco. I was taking who knows how many, some days 10... but, would go back down.. leveled off at 6 pills a day.. My pain was horrible... Now that I am down to 1 pill a day.. my pain is so much better... the norcos actually cause pain.. it is unbelievable! I am going to just quit , as I just keep going through withdrawals.. though I have been taking only 1 for about 3 days.. So, I just need to completely quit them... I never knew how strong just one norco actually is...
I see your confusion..I'm not sure even doctors know or understand about rebound pain.I would probably equate it to breakthru pain because it is the pain one feels when there is is inadequate drug in the system to produce pain relief.Whether this is caused from not enough drug or too much drug is not known,bu.t I can tell you from personal experience that more drug causes more pain and if we wait a bit often the pain subsides or we can use other means to decrease the pain.A lot of pain studies were done on people who have cancer pain and this is not the same because chronic pain has to be treated differently.Cancer pain is finite and people are not expected to live with it and treatment is different than chronic pain.I really do not ahve the answer but know from personal experience that more drug causes more pain.
Thats exactley my fear, since I will always live in pain, I will always need medication so I will build more and more tolerance and I don't want that. Am I now getting a false sence of pain tolerance. When I started a year ago I lived with a level of 8 all the time. Then I got on meds, so now on meds I live with a 3-5 and when it's close to 72 hours and time to change my patch then level goes up to 8 again. I know I have to talk to the doctor this next time around. Because I'm really wondering what my level of pain would be totally off. Thanks for all you input. Reading all these post has really made me think and it concerns me alot. I hate the hot and cold sweats I am having and I think they are from the narcotics because I am past meno or have been for about 5 years.
Are you taking disease modifying drugs to suppress the immune system so there is less inflammation and flareups.I mean such things as methotrexate and/or hydroxyquin or salazopyrin.These drugs suppress the immune system and help prevent the inflammation and resulting damage of autoimmune diseases.Narcotics are not the only way to go and should be the last line of treatment.
agree after reading ur post that u r physically/and not mentally dependent..u have not abused them and do not use for pleasure/but for pain
I do know many need pain meds to maintain a quality of life..thing is with narcotics/addict or not/tolerence increases..meaning more and more..paople reach a point 2where nuttin reduces pain levels..in reality narcotics were not invented for long term use due to tolerence
and u may or may not "switch over"...i wasnt really addicted for yrs then situations changed and I used to get up and go/to feel normal...life can get kinda twisted and then our coping mechanisms and any type of substance use can sting us in the bu11
Ther is no way to predict ur future...but addict or non-addict..narcotics long term is not usually//and I stress usually..the answer...direct relief methods often work better
Yes, I also am on a regime of autoimmune suppressents. I take Cellcept 2000 mg a day and sometime prenisolone for inflammation flares. Like when I get ulcers on /in my mouth and when I have swelling. I also have IBD and Gerd so I'm on meds daily for these. The pain meds are for my joint/muscle pain. Between Lupus, Sjogrens, RA and Fibro I have alot of pain. Sometimes I can't even walk. I use a cane to help. During all this the disease the arthritis has effected my L4-5 and S1 with a tear and narrowing on these disk in my back. I essentially feel apart in 1 and half year. I also have tried many antidepressants but have so many side effects from them that I cannot tolerate so ALL(5) have given up prescribing. Pain meds allow me to function and have somewhat of a normal life. But I am scared of it continuing.
All I can say is that with all your conditions you obviously need some good pain relief.As long as you do not increase your narcotic doses quickly and are able to be maintained on the doses at present,don't worry about the drugs you are taking.Just don't let the doctors prescribe tramadol for you because it is even harder to withdraw from and causes more tolerance than the opiate drugs.It still is not classed as a narcotic in many countries,but believe me..it is a synthetic narcotic that affects the opiate receptors and also has antidepressant effects.
Oh my god, When I first started having symptoms my PCP who doesn't like giving narcotics gave me Tramadol. I had to stop after 3 doses because after each I hullicinated just like if I had taken LSD. I saw lines and angels and zig-zag wavy lines. One time I was on my way to work and it started so by the time I got to work I couldn't function. I had to leave work but someone drove me back home. So I'll never take that,plus it just made me feel horrible. Thanks for all your comments, these forums really help, I feel like I have someone to always talk to.
I have been on oxycodone (Percocets) for almost a year now and take 50-60 mgs a day (ten 5/325"s).
I was addicted to Vicoden ES before as was taken as many as twelve a day for almost FIVE freakin years. I then went on Subs to avoid withdrawals and just totally abused them from the start by taking 16 mg a day, every day. Then I discovered that if I combine Subs and Focalin (ADD med) by crushing and then snorting..I would get the most amazing sense of euphoria and sense of well being. It also killed my appetite and I lost 40 lbs in like..3 months..so far so good..Then, I had an episode where after I snorted more than my normal amount and my heart started beating so fast I thought if was going to explode. It took hours to normalize and it scared to **** out of me. I took everything that I had left and flushed it down the toilet.
I have done well and am well off financially and I have all the money I need. This has actually turned out to be a very big problem as I have quite a few personal friends that are MD's and as they like to come to my lavish parties and spend time on my 65 foot Hatteras (boat) they write me scrips for whatever I want. It sucked as I never had to hussle to get anything and as money is no object it would not have mattered even if I did.
Anyways, I flushed the Meds and took a flight to South Africa where a good friend of mine lives and that is where my nightmare began. As it takes 18 hours to get there, I was already starting to withdraw when I landed in Cape Town and after sleeping for 12 hours I woke up to cold sweats and the most aggressive withdrawal symptoms that I had ever experienced. After about 8 more hours I told my friend that I had to see a Dr immediately. However when I went to a local Medical Center I was told by a Dr that South Africa does not prescribe narcotic meds (unless in extreme emergencies) and that I could not get any. At this point I was completely freaked out and I was feeling so weak I just checked into a hotel and curled up under the covers for another 6 hours or so (getting NO sleep and feeling like I was going to freakin die) I left the room the next day and just started walking up the street and happened to pass a Harley Davidson dealership and as I used to love riding I started talking to the salesman and next thing I knew I was riding out of the showroom on a rented Fatboy. I put my suitcase in storage at the hotel and packed a light bag and just headed up the coast. Thankfully it was the middle of winter and although the skies were clear it was absolutely freezing but not raining, thank God. I proceeded to drive up the coastal road and it was the best thing that I could have done at that moment to just distract myself from the agony of withdrawal and keep me focused on keeping the bike upright.. I rode for 18 hours only stopping for gas and only stopped because my *** had become embedded to the seat and with the phantom pain that I experienced I just had to stop or fall off the bike and crash. I checked into a hotel and fell asleep for about three hours out of sheer exhaustion. Then I got back on the bike as I needed to be distracted again with the withdrawals in full force. I literally could not even try to entertain the thought of sitting on a plane for 18 hours and not killing somebody or something, so flying back to the US was not an option and I just kept finding new roads and new hotels..I did that for a week and finally started feeling better although sleep deprivation was a big problem still. I stopped along the way when I found something interesting and managed to maintain my sanity along the way. I then started making my way back and two weeks had transpired when I returned the bike, but I at least felt good enough to fly back to the US. I returned and even though it took at least another month of uncomfortable withdrawal, I managed to stay clean and recovered completely.
A year ago I moved to an island in the Caribbean and found a beautiful home on the beach. I brought me boat up from Florida and lo and behold, I found myself slipping back into my old lifestyle. I don't do the Suboxone/Focalin combination anymore, but now I am up to 50 mgs of percocet a day and I could absolutely kick myself for ever even freakin TOUCHING another pill! But hey, it is what it is. I have watched these pills slowly take my character and personality away and now all I do is sit at home and watch TV and surf the net. I feel trapped and want to kick the percs but I am **** scared of withdrawing and obviously South Africa is not a viable option again.PLEASE HELP ME FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO..HELP!!
I can't go to treatment here because I am too well known and don't want the press to hound me. Also treatment in the States is not an option as I don't have three months to spend in Rehab..Just want to go CT but need help..thanks
I am sorry
you came to the right place to get some clarity and support from people who have been through and are going through exactly what you are. This web site is a great resource. You may want to start a new post as you have written on an older post. Please keep posting and you will get tons of support and help. Feel free to pm me anytime to talk. I have gone CT from Suboxone and Oyxs many times. If you look on the lower right hand corner of this page you will find a section called Most Viewed Health Pages. Read the Thomas Recipe and the Amino Acid Protocol pages as they are very helpful for detoxing on your own. I have founf them very helpful. You can do this and just the fact that you reached out on this site shows you have a spirt strong enought to do it. Congrats and Good Luck!
Thomas Recipe Re-Posted
Comments in brackets are my thoughts.[ ]
[Warning. If you are on anti-Depressants, use medical supervision on L-Tyrosine, SamE and all mood enhancers. There can be a risk if taking L-Tyrosine, 5 HTP if you are on a tricyclic or a MAIO antidepressant's ...It can cause a spike in blood pressure.]
Thomas Detox Recipe
PLEASE NOTE: I am not a doctor, simply a long-time Rx opiate junkie who has had many opportunities to develop a way to detox. This is a recipe for at-home self-detox from opiates based on my experience as well as that of many other addicts. It is not intended as professional medical advice. It is always wise to make sure none of the recipe ingredients or procedures conflict with medications you may be taking. Likewise, if you have any medical condition, disease, allergy or any other health issue, consult your doctor before using the recipe. Thanks, Thomas
This recipe is designed for cold turkey opiate detox. It assumes that you can get about 5 to 7 days away from your job or household responsibilities during which you can sleep, veg and act as miserable as you feel. Opiate WD mimics the symptoms of the common flu, so, if you need a smokescreen, hide behind a bad case of the flu.
If you can't take time off to detox, I recommend you follow a taper regimen using your drug of choice or suitable alternate -- the slower the taper, the better.
For the Recipe, You'll nee
1.Imodium (over the counter, any drug or grocery store). [generic brand anti-diarrheal is fine. Don't take it unless really uncomfortable]
2.L-Tyrosine* (500 mg caps) from the health food store.* [See Warning]
3.Strong wide-spectrum mineral supplement with at least 100% RDA of Zinc, Phosphorus, Copper and Magnesium.
4.Vitamin B6 caps. [or stress B-complex?]
5.Access to hot baths or a Jacuzzi (or hot showers if that's all that's available). [many gyms offer free trials]
How to use the recipe
During detox, hit the hot bath or Jacuzzi as often as you need to for muscle aches. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of hot soaks. Spend the entire time, if necessary, in a hot bath. This simple method will alleviate what is for many the worst opiate W/D symptom. [I like Epsom salts in the tub. Forces Magnesium into the muscles]
Use the Imodium aggressively to stop the runs. Take as much as you need, as often as you need it. DON'T TAKE IT, however, if you don't need it.[Diarrhea is the bodies way to aid in the detox so take Immodium or generic for the comfort factor, if needed]
Upon rising (empty stomach), take the L-Tyrosine*. Try 2000 mg, and scale up or down, depending on how you feel. You can take up to 4,000 mg. Take the L-Tyrosine* with B6 to help absorption. Wait about one hour before eating breakfast. The L-Tyrosine* will give you a surge of physical and mental energy that will help counteract the malaise. You may continue to take it each morning for as long as it helps. If you find it gives you the "coffee jitters," consider lowering the dosage or discontinuing it altogether. Occasionally, L-Tyrosine* can cause the runs. Unlike the runs from opiate W/D, however, this effect of L-Tyrosine* is mild and normally does not return after the first hour. Lowering the dosage may help. [*Read the Warning first! *L-Tyrosine* is great. *SamE 400* mg works for mood too]
With breakfast, take the mineral supplement.
As soon as you can force yourself to, get some mild exercise such as walking, cycling, swimming, etc. This will be hard at first, but will make you feel considerably better. [Walking gets the blood and lymph systems working, helping you detox better.]
PLEASE NOTE: If you have any medical complications, first check with your doctor before detoxing to verify that this regimen is safe for you. [Very important note]
[WARNING If you are on anti-Depressants, use medical supervision on L-Tyrosine, SamE and all mood enhancers. There can be a risk if taking L-Tyrosine, 5 HTP if you are on a tricyclic or a MAIO antidepressant's ...It can cause a spike in blood pressure.]
And here is the Amino Acid Protocol also see if you can get your hands on some Clonidine. This is a blood pressure med frequently used for detoxing. It releaves many of the WD symptoms like crawling skin sweating and can help you be less stressed. It is also widely used to help people stop smoking. It is non addictive. I was given this by an addiction specialist when I began my detox and I swear by it. Again feel free to ask me anything. You can do this and you will be so happy you did. Give yourself a 7 day window. You are not on that high of a dose. do this b4 you are. best of luck.
Amino Acid Protocol
Most of this program is from the book END YOUR ADDICTION NOW.. the doctor who wrote it ran a treatment facility in UPstate New york where they gave patients amino acids and vitamin via IV during treatment.. He also counsels patients individually.. All of these things are meant to rebuild activity in the major neuro transmitters.. as addicts our neurotransmitters have been disrupted by our use of drugs.. even stuff like cigarettes and eating alot of sugar can disrupt them.. with drugs however it can be more damaging.. I will list the aminos maily used for addiction, their dosages etc.. everything should be taken on a empty stomach... an hour b4 meals.. Take all of them together with lots of water... I have added stuff as I have done more research on this...
**Please check with your doctor or pharmacist for any interactions with any meds you may be taking.
B- vitamin Complex 100mgs, needed for absorption of aminos, rebuilding of the liver, reducing stress, If you can get injections from your doctor that is even better.. I would buy the sublingual for best absorption
Multi mineral vitamin high potency formula , just good to take all around, addicts are using lacking many of the right vitamins and minerals, and alot of prescription drugs rob our bodies of nutrients.
5HTP-- this is what tryptophan gets turned into prior to being turned into serotonin in our brains. Serotonin is what is usually depleted if we are depressed and anxious.. Taking this will help with PAWS ( post accute withdrawl syndrome) or eliminate you suffering from them all together DO NOT TAKE IF YOU ARE TAKING A SSRI OR TRICYLIC ANTI DEPRESSANT
Dosage-- up to 300mgs a day 3x DAILY ( I take 100mgs 3x per day, start with the lower dose and move up if needed) IF YOU ARE TAKING THE 5HPT PLZ DO NOT TAKE SAM E AS WELL. IT CAN BE DANEROUS
L-glutamine--amino acid required for GABA production, that is the relaxing part of our brain. up to 2000mgs 3x per day.. ( I take 1000 mgs 3x day, again start lower and work up if needed)
L-Taurine-- another "relaxing" amino up to 1000mgs 3x daily
DLPA-- helps restore the function to the pain receptors working with the enporphins/enkephalins, can also help with pain if you are someone that suffers with some kind of legitamate pain. DO NOT TAKE IF YOU ARE TAKING A SSRI OR TRICYLIC ANTIDEPRESSANT or if you have DIABETES or HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE
Dose-- up to 2000mgs 3x per day (again you can start lower like 1000mgs 3x daily)
Sam-e-- aids in stress relief, depression,eases pain, and produces antioxidant effect that can improve the health of the liver 200-400mgs per day YOU ARE TAKING THE SAME PLZ DO NOT TAKE 5HPT AS WELL. IT CAN BE DANEROUS
Vitamin C-- use Ester c buffered form, detoxifies the system, and lessens cravings for drugs. Supports many body systems. Take 2,000mgs every 3 hours. Start with 1,000mgs and work your way up. Can cause loose stools, body will adjust.
Calcium 1,000mgs at bedtime Magnesium 1,000mgs at bedtime nourishes the central nervous system and helps control tremors like RLS and other muscle spasms calms and relaxes the body, helps sleep.
If you find yourself really struggling with energy after being on the aminos you can add L-tyrosine to the mix in the early part of the day.. up to 1,500mgs.. This is not usually used in the treatment of pain pill addiction and can over stimulate some people I would say only take it if you are still struggling with energy after starting everything else..
If you find yourself having some anxiety the amino L-theanine is like natural valium.. It has helped me so much I no longer need to take xanax at all for my panic attacks
As far as sleep.. in my early days off of pills I took a sleep blend from GNC with a L-theanine and calcium magnesium liquid everynight and slept like a baby.
Another aid to help with sleep is melatonin. This is a hormone released from the pinal gland in the human body at night time for sleep...this is essential for those coming off opiods. As little as 1mg to 30mg have been effective. Start low and add 3-5 mgs every half hour till sleep. Reasearch on healthy volunteers using up to 100mg of melatonin in a single dose shoes little side effects. Melatonin is also known as a very strong antioxidant with 1000x the potenecy of vitamin E. Take only at night right before bedtime as the hormone is released naturally by the body when it is dark.
I suggest GNC to purchase this stuff they are pretty cheap (some stuff is only 4.99 a bottle) they were also super helpful and knew alot.. I got a gold card to save some bucks in the future..
After a few months if you are feeling good you can taper the aminos back to once a day... then a few months after that a few times a week.. the best part about taking aminos instead of drugs is you don't have to take them forever to get the benefit.. the FIX the problem not put a band aid on it.
Protein shakes can be of great benefit.. protein is needed for rebuilding of nearly everything in the body.
If you have any questions I am always around.. FLaddict
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