Addiction

[Tom G.]

Is there an altenative to narcotics for pain relief? I have tried the neurontin, and topomax (topamax) but they provided NO relief. I get spinal epidurals every six-eight weeks which only provide about 7-10 days relief. 3yrs ago I had a lumbar laminectomy and got a disc space infection from the operation which went undiagnosed for approx. 3.5 months. As a result the infection destroyed what I had left of a Disc and progressed into osteomylitis. The damage caused by the infection required a second operation which involved fusing my vertabrae and installing rods and screws to stabaize my spine. Following the operation I was in ICU for three days. I was MISERABLE. I still have considerable nerve pain in my hip and leg as well as my entire lower back. I am currently being treated by a pain specialist that performs epidurals and perscribes morphine er and ir. I take a total of about 250mg per day which takes the edge off of the pain.
    I have been reading the posts on this board because I know I am taking an extremely addictive medication and am wondering if they are able to correct my back condition am I going to have a problem going off these meds? I have forgotten to take a dose before and started yawning for no reason which I have read is a symptom of addiction??  Thanks in advance for your professional and experienced advice....Tom G.

[Thomas]

Tom,

First, let me say, as someone who went through a diskectomy/laminectomy about 5 years ago, you have certainly gotten about every rotten break it's possible to get. I hurt just reading your post! As far as pain relief goes, there are others on the forum that can contribute at least as much as I can, but I'll give you my perspective as someone who had to rely on the same drugs for pretty much the same reason. To be completely honest, however, I must tell you I was an rx narcotic addict for twenty years before I ever developed back trouble. So take that for what it's worth.

From the sound of it, the only way you're going to live a life free enough from pain to make it worth living is to freely avail yourself of the morphine your doctor is offering. There are those who think anti-inflammatories are god's gift to pain relief, but they're also all pretty much neophytes who have never experienced a fraction of what you describe.

In my experience, based on the mechanism by which morphine provides pain relief, it is not possible for a human being to use high, frequent doses of morphine or other opiates without becoming habituated mentally and physically. But let's look at that statement for a moment. Our society automatically considers addiction of this kind to be evil, to be a symptom of low moral character, when all it is simple human physiology. There is no morality involved whatsoever.

Yes, if you ever can get to a point where you don't need such strong pain relief, you're going to have to go through a clean, honest, intelligent rehab process. But so what? You didn't ask for this to happen to you. You're no criminal. You're just a human being in unspeakable pain. It is a doctor's obligation to relieve that pain just as it is his obligation to help his patient off of the drugs currently necessary for achieving that pain relief.

Yes, yawning is an early symptom of narcotic withdrawal (or forced viewing of chick flicks).  Just don't buy into this idea that becoming habituated to opiates is evil. What else can you do in your situation? Besides, there are new drugs, some of them opiates like buprenorphine, that provide pain relief without incurring as much dependence. Ask your doctor about them.

But above all, Tom, hold your head up high. You've done nothing to be ashamed of. Anyone of us would do the same thing in your place and face the same consequences of having to rely on morphine for as long as you have.

Peace.

[Francoise]

That is one of the best, most responsive, compassionate answers to a post I've seen here or anywhere else. Very well done.

You said: "Yes, if you ever can get to a point where you don't need such strong pain relief, you're going to have to go through a clean, honest, intelligent rehab process."

Is there such a thing as you describe? I'm in the same boat with oxycontin. Don't know if I'll ever be in a position where I'm free enough of pain to contemplate getting off that med. But it would be very comforting to know I can get off if that time comes, and do so as you describe above. I'm particularly vulnerable to depression and so I'm, well, terrified of coming off.

Can you advise?

Francoise

[cindi]

Thomas's post was so very true and extremely well written and understanding of your situation.  I do have to agree with him as far as everything he said....so many people with chronic pain such as yours have no choice but to take narcotics and yes there is an issue of addiction, or dependance but so what....as a nurse I can tell you I have seen so many people on narcotics long term, become dependant and they really didn't give it too much thought other than when the time came that the pain was controlled with with a medication with less strength that they gradually tapered their dose which is recommended with alot of drugs other than narcotics, such as steroids and antidepressants. Your doc sounds compassionate enough that when the time comes to get off the medication he may be very willing to help you with the process.You are so lucky that your doc is willing to continue to prescribe pain medication, I have heard so many people complain about their docs lack of compassion, including my self and my husband.   In all honesty though I do agree that you are in no position to get of the morphine and live a painfree, productive life..  Please do as Tom suggests and hold your head up and please do not be ashamed, there is no shame in having to take medication for anything that ails you, diabetics have to take medication, cardiac patients need heart meds, chronic pain patients need pain medication,  it was invented for a reason...amd yes FRANCOISE  there is an intelligent honest way of coming off narcotics, tapering down, using the help of your physician when the time comes, there are treatment centers, and there is medication out there to help with this process and there is medication that is designed for the purpose of treating depression....there really is help out there...good luck to both of you and God bless       Cindi

[siliconboy]

Sounds like you have plenty on your plate without throwing addiction into the mix brother. You'll not get better responses than the previous but I will add a little story.. Have you ever seen Dr. Dean Adell on the tube? I'm not sure just what inpired him for this rant that I saw years ago but it went something like this. There are people in the world that have crippling chronic pain, many of them such as terminal cancer patients could care less if they become dependent on anything, much less something that may allow them some shred of dignity and peace. He went on to say - who cares if someone gets addicted? If they're in pain treat that NOW. We know that regardless of what anyone does 10 - 20 % of the population is going down the road to addiction at any given time. If they get to a point where they don't need the meds anymore - we'll treat 'em for addiction. Dr. Dean is pretty much a great guy and more than a wee bit geeky - he won me over with that spot.

chill and worry about what's in front of ya' - trust me "this is the voice of experience" :) you can kick the dope and they get better at making it tolerable every year.
David

[Pixie]

Well said, Thomas. Pain relief is so often withheld from people who desperately need it out of fear of addiction. Addiction can and probably will be a side effect of the treatment you need for your ailment. Side effects are rarely pleasant. Some drugs can cause seizures, stroke, bleeding, infection, depression, coma, death, yadda yadda....
If your pain is in any way interfering with the quality of your life, then you must take whatever drugs are necessary to relieve it.
My doctors have so often left me hanging. They don't think narcotics are an acceptable treatment for chronic pain-only acute.
Well, how would they like to experience the severity of an acute pain attack every day of thier lives? I gaurantee they would do whatever they had to do-even steal and lie to get the medicine that worked.
Consider yourself lucky that you have someone who will aggressivly treat your condition-who isn't "gun-shy" so to speak.
Don't worry about addiction right now-you probably are addicted already anyway. You are not a lesser person because of this. You are not weak. You can worry about breaking the addiction when your more immediate issue(being pain) is righted. You have the right to feel good and to function. You have the right to be happy.
Be well. Don't worry. And good luck with your back.
Pixie

[PS >>>>Annie]

NOW, THERE IS NO WAY, HUMANLY POSSIBLE, TO TOP THAT!
If you were in my shoes, you'd take the medication and run.  I'd say we were in the same boat, but we're not.  Don't take your compassionate doctor for granted.  You have bonafide medical necessity requiring pain medication.  Tom, I came to this site out of curiosity, thinking maybe I had a problem wanting relief.
How could I have a problem??? I wasn't getting adequate amounts of anything to be an addict. lol

Tom, Cindi, Francios, Silicon, Pixie......What more can I say.  You guys, have done a fantastic job.

Silicon,
  Where is Dr. Dean now?  I used to live in the same city as he did.  I used to watch him on the local news.

Annie

[Thomas]

Yes, my friend, there is hope for those on what is proving to be the hardest opiate to get off of and stay off of: oxycontin. It's called buprenorphine. It is an opiate with agonist properties at low doses, which enables it to provide considerable pain relief when used correctly, and antagonist properties when used at higher doses, meaning, one, indefinite dose increases don't produces increased highs, and, two, the presence of buprenorphine in one's system tends to antagonize, in other words neutralize, the effects of other opiates that recovering patients might surreptitiously obtain and use. The detox experience for buprenorphine is dramatically easier than that of the other opiates, including the so-called lower echelon opiates like codeine or vicodin. Right now, clearance to allow private physicians to use buprenorphine in their offices to treat their patients for opiate addiction while maintaining the doctor/patient confidentiality we all have come to expect is pending in the legislature. The last word I got from CSAM, California Society for Addiction Medicine, was that buprenorphine will be legalized in this private context sometime in the 3rd quarter of this year.

I'd also like to believe, Francoise, that detox and rehab techniques themselves have evolved. I know from some research that at least some of them have evolved for the better.

I must tell you that, as one experienced using every narcotic but heroin, powdered and snorted oxycontin produced the most obsessionally addictive reaction of any drug I have ever used, including IV demerol, morphine and Dillaudid. I liken the psychological compulsion to use more and more oxy to my thankfully brief brushes with cocaine in the mid-eighties. And I consider cocaine to be the worst drug in the history of mankind.

Here?s a central source for addiction-related issues not run by fascists but actual doctors. You may find some answers there.

http://www.asam.org/Frames.htm

Of course, even if you never get off of oxycontin, again, so what? If you use it responsibly to maintain an acceptable quality of life and you don?t harm others, than what business is it of anyone?s how you cope with your pain? One other thought: Morphine is considered to provide equal to superior pain relief to oxycontin but is significantly easier to get off of. You might ask your doctor to let you try MS-contin. Just an idea. Good luck to you, Francoise.

[Thomas]

I wanted to do something to better define what we really mean when we talk of opiate, or narcotic, addiction. So few doctors bother to explain this to their patients:

Endorphins are the brain?s natural painkillers and sometime pleasure inducers. Produced naturally at times of stress, they trigger the brain's pain fighting/reducing capabilities.

Opiates like oxycontin or morphine or vicodin or dillaudid resemble on a molecular level naturally produced endorphins. The brain mistakes opiates for endorphins. And since part of what the brain does is try to maintain a chemical balance at all times, it reflexively stops or reduces its own production of endorphins. Therefore, when the opiates run out, then patient is left with a serious endorphin deficit that is responsible for what we call narcotic withdrawal.

Where is the human guilt in that? Where is the moral failing in being burdened with this condition after a serious injury and long, painful recovery? IT'S NOT OUR FAULT, GUYS! IT'S NATURE AND MAN TAMPERING WITH NATURE FOR THE NOBLE PURPOSE OF RELIEVING SUFFERING. I SAY PARTY ON!

[cindi]

PARTY ON WAYNE,  PARTY ON GARTH??????  lol  ok Thomas, i have a question that has me a little confused,,(something that is not hard to do with me lately)  when I first started using drugS, other than the oral route, I started skin popping before the IV route,  anyway, I think I may have mentioned this before but the first drug I started using at the hosptial was a drug called Stadol and one called Buprenorphine....The BUP did produce a high, but eventually I went on to the demerol, dilaudid etc,   this BUP that got me high and the more I used the higher I got, is now used for detox...do you happen to know what doesage they are using, do they start out higher and gradually decreas, so it pretty much is like using methadon to get off opiate, or maybe darvocet to get of Vicodin?   Just curious since I was able to get high off of it....does that make sense.  You know more about it than I do I simpley know it as a pain medicine we used for post-op pain rather than opiates......  Obvioulsy, it is a miracle drug for detox....I hope it is still around if I ever need it again....PS    you are such an inspiration to those addicts wanting to get clean...Thanks  have a good one.....Love cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

COST OF UNTREATED PAIN

50 Million chronic pain sufferers nation wide, most undertreated.

50% of cancer patients die in agony. American Society of Oncology

Financial $100 Billion/year due to lost work days and other expenses.

16,500 deaths annually from anti-inflammatory drugs, while safe treatments exist.

[siliconboy]

BUP is what I used to kick with. - spook addresses the dosage somewhere on here - I think I started @1.2 mgs and then went to .6 and then none. It is an antogonist and partial agonist. It binds the opiate receptors so your not dying and concurrently (for lack of a better term) - strips the dope out of your body. My doc told me that they could use it for everything except hydrocodone - this was several years ago - but they didn't understand why it didn't work on the hydro at that time. That stuff saved me - I was shooting 3-4 grams / day of dealer dope - black glassy **** that you could lick your fingers from and feel it if you were clean.
Best

[Tom G.]

THANK YOU EVERYONE for your Honest, Kind, and Experential comments. I hope I can return the favor some day. I will continue to visit this site daily in hopes to help you or someone else. Yes, I have seen/heard Dr. Dean Adell and I agree with with everything he said. I am doing what I need to do so I can continue to work and provide a living for my family ( Wife and 3 kids ). I need relief so I can go to work and get through the day. Thomas's and everyone else's posts were very helpful and I really appreciate your kind words.

   Thank you,....Tom G. I look forward to talking to you all soon....

[neenie]

hi i have been reading this board for weeks now and this is my first time posting. it is so great and inspiring to know that there are people out there like all of you, tom, thomas, francoise, cindi, annie, dee to help me get through my torture of addiction. like cindi, i am a nurse at a very busy, accessible hospital. it is so easy to obtain meds there. i can't get through a day w/out any kind of opiate. it has been three years that i have never missed a day without oxy, percocets, vicodin, darvocet, morphine, you name it, i can get it. i need help

[Thomas]

Absolutely right on, annie! How can we call ourselves civilized and allow cancer patients to die in agony when morphine is in actuality just about the cheapest and most plentiful drug on the planet? When someone's dying, what could it possibly matter to anyone how much morphine they use? Is this a doctor prejudice or DEA intimidation, or ... is it something much worse: plain old human indifference to the suffering of others. Just because someone earns an MD doesn't make him or her a saint or even a decent person. The news is full of people with MD's convicted of committing heinous acts. It happens every day.

Same sentiments about all the deaths caused by doctors trying to placate their pain patients with what amounts to a spectrum of virtually useless **** known as anti-inflammatories. I know many will disagree, but if a doctor feeds patients these stomach-destroying substances when they could be easily relieving their pain with, usually, low-level narcotics medications, that's criminal in my book -- criminal as in prosecutable in a court of law.

We have no problem with the Nuremberg trials after WWII, which were basically the principals of the Nazi regime being tried for unspeakable cruelty toward their fellow man. What's different about a doctor feeding a passive, elderly pain patient some poison like ibuprofen or orudis or voltarin or daypro, knowing full well that:

1) those meds won't relieve the patient's pain one bit
2) those meds will work away on their stomach linings until they hemorrhage to death.

Like the Nuremberg defendants, doctors unsuccessfully try to claim ignorance. But we all know it's not ignorance. Just as it was murder at Nuremberg, it's murder on a daily basis in our nation's doctor's offices. I think it's time for a medical version of Nuremberg, how about you?

siliconboy: thanks for the details on the buprenorphine. I'm afraid I know next to nothing about bup dosages. I think the key to its success lies in your comments about how bup helps "strip" opiates from the body by binding to the receptors.

Peace.

[Thomas]

what is the hosital's policy toward addicted nurses who volunteer for rehab? I've heard nurses in this situation have less rights than most factory workers. Is this true?

[neenie]

hi thomas, the policy as i know it is if you are brave enough to tell that you arte a health care provider addicted(which is a great number of those in the medical field), then you must participate in a IPN-intervention program for nurses. they cannot take away your license IF you cooperate and go through the program- based on tests,labwork, volunteering info, they will determine the program for the individual. they do random urine and blood tests though. state board gets involved if tests show up with any kind of substance. i went to a hospital to get into a rehab but when i was told all of this which i did not know before, i did not sign up. the progrram is really to protect the nurse though b/c if you are doing the rehab, you can still work as a nurse and they will back you up . if they find out the nurse is using, then they will say that the nurse is in an IPN, but i am just afraid that they will always be watching meif i relapse or random tests. then you can't work around narcotics, medicate pts, have any keys to narcotics, i think the best thing for me is to go into a different knind of nursing that does not involve so much access to all the things i get.thanks for posting. neenie

[PS >>>>Annie]

Hopefully you will continue coming here.  I came here for  similar reasons.  This forum will help you to"keep it real." Yes reality.  You'll learn a great deal about drug abuse.  There are so many educated, experienced, loving, caring, people on this forum.  Tom and Cindi were the very first to answer my post, then I met Brighty, Jb, Dee Dee, Pixie, Pelle, Hope, so many people, and Yes theres Spook too.  I have never been pegged an addict, but may be one, soon....for understandable reasons.  
I have some information for you about tolerance, dependance, and
"addiction."
"This is what distinguishes the pain patient who is tolerant to and physically dependent on morphine, from the addict who is also tolerant to and physically dependent on heroin. Both are self-administering an addictive drug several times a day. But while the addict takes his drug to get high, "mellow out," and largely avoid life, the pain patient takes his drug to get on with life.
"Pain patients, by contrast, couldn't be more different. Being on an opioid allows them to interact with their families, to get out of hospitals, and to go back to work. Indeed, their efforts to maintain their health are in marked contradiction to the utter disregard addicts show for their health. If we wish to equate addicts with pain patients, the more appropriate comparison is with the under treated pain patient."
"He is in the hospital or inactive at home, he is a major drain on his family's emotional and financial resources, and he does not contribute productively to society."

Best Wishes,

Annie

[siliconboy]

Thomas - what I actually meant was that BUP does a two - two - two mints in one kind thang. It binds with the receptors so that you don't die from agonizing withdrawal  - AND - it strips the dope out. For the record the naranon people - I know, I know - scientology et al., anyway, they have a detox recipe (vitamins minerals) that has helped many recover more quickly as a result of getting the dope residue out of the bodies quickly. I am pulling for all of you that are in pain -

spook,please jump in here and give them the lowdown on how BUP works (again:)...

.http://www.na.org/bull14.htm
David

[spook]

Apart from what we have learned about Buprenorpnine from EVERYWHERE else,one must be reminded and not treat with disinterest what a real human,`ME` has experienced(what I have experienced in using it,(briefly-2 weeks),after Opioid addiction:- #1.it can restore the Dopamine imbalance(a bit like Tyrosine does) that underlies Opioid recidivism(addiction),but addresses the issue(Dopamine depletion),without much Endorphin Receptor binding and stimulation,it will therefore stop the sickness and not ADD TO,the sneezing,aching,yawning,dirty reality,sand flowing throught veins feelings,everthing dirty disorganised,crappy nappy?(bit siily don`t you think?),cold sweats,etc,Opioid withdrawal symptoms.
  Doing So leaving your brain on a nice alert Speedy(Dopamine) type of high,not at all typical of Opioids or like Opioids AT ALL(but has the essence of the HIGH).But then again it is only a Week Agonist,I feel it is the ultimate stepping stone to an Opioid free life ,but in the meantime provides a dramatic Neurologally chemical sustrate /ligand HomioEqualibrium conduscient to re-adjust-ment and possibly along with Psychotherapy a prerequsuisite paradigm in total or partial or temporary STRAUGHTNESS.(how boring?!).Well not really boring, just that I love my Highs.And Bupnenorphine is a Rater.

[cindi]

HI Thomas,  I was reading the posts between you and Neenie re: the programs for impaired nurses as we are called....The laws vary from state to state...In Ohio 10 years ago when a nurse had dep. problems the facility was under absolutely no obligation to report up to the state Board of Nursing.   well, 10 years went by and now the laws have changed and each nurse that has been caught using or diverting narcotics will be turned over to the board and if she is caught diverting then she must by law be turned over to the board of pharmacy as well,  the BOP are the ones who want the nurses sent to prison they have no mercy,,,when an intervention was done on me 10 years ago neither board was notified, when I was in trouble again in 95 both boards were notified, and subsequently found out about my prior also, the BoN was ok with it but the pharmacy board was livid and filed charge and charge and ended up with a grand jury indictment against me with 6 felonies against me and then decided to throw in 6 more for good measure, they made it a point to tell the prosecutor they wanted my locked up and fought the treatment in lieu of conviction...I ended up on the news, headlines etc. over a few percocets... I was in more trouble over those damn pills than I was when I stole a years worth of demerol, morphine and anything else I could get my hands on.i did get treatment in lieu of conviction, luckily my judge was very kind, while he pulled no punches that theft of narcs is a felony and not to be taken lightly, he also recognized that addiction is a disease....as my poor mom God rest her soul sat with me tears streaming down her face wondering how her daughter turned into what I had become...ok, sorry  i have a tendency to stray...the Board of nursing are also very compassionate and of course revoked my rights to administer narcs...i had by that time left nursing anyway,  i did get the license back when I went to apply for a job at a methadone clinic but they preferred a male nurse to dish out the meth...oh well,  I never did persue any other avenues of nursing...the board gave me back my lisence with very lenient provisons, and we do as well as most states have a peer assistance program,  nurse support groups etc.  they are there to protect the nurse as well as the patient....the board of pharmacy is there to lock all of our asses up....one reason for that is that one of the head honchos in This division of the parmacy group was a patient that was in alot of pain from a fire burn and his nurse diverted his medication to herself,  ironically, he lived by a pharmacist that accidentally started the fire he got burnt in...and if that is not ironic enough the pharmacist he lived by,,,,was busted by this guy who was burnt in the fire for doling out illegal sripts to every addict in Youngstown ohio....including myself, and to end this story this same Pharmacy agent was at one time a police officer and he was a good friend and partner of my dad's when he was on the Youngstown Police dept... the moral of my story???   NONE....just needed to talk I guess........Happy Easter   Love cindi    PS  I have been e-mailing spook and it keeps coming back, he has not posted here?    he seems like he just dropped off the face of the earth..........have you heard from him?

[spook]

Everything you say in your above post just makes you more +HUMAN+ and Vulnerable!-~VULNERABLE~,`sensitive`,"kind",if want, some love, please.You precious innocent sweet angel.
How dare anybody Judge your soul,on the pretence of an extention of your bodies animate programmed actions.
Confusion and deceit dominate the powers that rule those are the very qualities those archaic systems rely upon.
Your future looks bright.
Welcome to the Kingdom of LOve and eNlightenment......

[Thomas]

goddamn, I had no idea you'd gone through anything like that ...

[cindi]

Actually that part of my lifewas very scary for me, I had a baby and had Marysville ( a female Prison) hanging over my head and the prison scared the **** out of me...no johhny mops for me thanks.  but, what was even more terrifying for me was 1989 when i was first confronted at work and sent to treatment for a 2week stay in detox from all the demerol etc.  I thought my life was over,  the events that led up to my addiction were even more traumatic for me....to make a long story short, it is true, God does not dish out any more than we can handle, I grew up very normal and in my 20's I was a young carefree woman, good profession, not a care in  the world,  enter...one man..who only thought of himself, much older than me and all to soon my naivety (spelling) and innocence was zapped hence the drugs+addiction and a downward spiral...but I survived, I was able to hold my head up and go on with my life....do I look back,  yes every blessed day of my life do the nightmares continue yes once or twice a week...can I forgive?  NO!!!!  Maybe someday...I need to work on that....but in the meantime, I continue to learn that life is full of pain and there is a silver light after every storm but I prefer Gold  LOL   love you guys    cindi  :)

[Thomas]

what ever happened to this guy?

[cindi]

He is happily living life ever after...but...that's ok,  maybe, I am not sure but just maybe he is living his own private hell...and you know what, and tom, please forgive me if I sound cruel and unforgiving but I hope he is miserable...Tom,  this is so hard for me, but there was a child that resulted from this man, I could not keep....I was forced, (and when I mean forced I am not exaggerating) to abort...which was another nightmare...I had the abortion done I was about 5 weeks pregnant and 3 months later found I was still pregnant The dr. missed the pregnancy...I had a sonogram done and the baby was severly deformed meaning no limbs etc. from the previous attempted botched up abortion...so I had to have another one done.....where upon this time I hemorrhaged and became so massively infected I almost died....I wanted this baby more than life itself I was so against everthing but it was like I was not in charge of my life....regardless of who the father was,even if it was against my will this was my child.....this is the hardest thing next to burying my mom that I have ever had to do and to talk about it with anyone ...well, it is something that I have not done very much....You probably ask y did I let this guy do this to me?  I didn't let him, I was very young, vulnerable and I cannot explain it.....does that make sense?   anyway, after 15 years of torture in my soul, I have these 2 beautiful kids of mine, and of course they were miracles because I was not supposed to conceive again after all of that...but God saw fit for me to give birth twice..I know I am truly blessed....Why am I telling this for all of the forum to see?  I don't know...I may be judged and condemned I don't know...but the only thing that came out of any of this for me that was even half good was the fact that my mom and my child both of whom I love with every fiber inside of me are now together...my mom probably rocking and singing to my baby as I type this...On this Easter she is without her 4 grandchildren left on earth but there is one waiting for her in Heaven...Love to all              cin

[Thomas]

you have endured more than one person should have to in one lifetime. I am happy to know that, after that awful first experience, you've got two fine children to love and to raise. Life truly is a mix of blessings and curses.

[siliconboy]

well - didn't intend to invalidate you in any way - BUP will most definately enhance yer mood compared to opiate withdrawal or even nothing at all. I honestly did NOT experience any down side WHAT SO EVER.
L8R

[cindi]

That is kind of ironic that one of the very first drugs (other than oral) I shot into my body to get high was the buprenorphine...then I went on to more powerful stuff and kept the BUP just in case....you know for the WD's and stuff...wow, I could have been onto something had I used my brain at all...this was when BUP was new many years ago...and maybe, just maybe I could have figured it out to wean myself from the demerol etc using the BUP....and save myself the real agony of detox...it was not cold turkey , back then they only allowed me librium q.i.d. and clonidine...whoopdeedoo....I guess it was better than nothing......you know if I was still working at the hospital it is used for surgical patients and it is not locked up or it wasn't 5 years ago, i could be getting my hands on it and giving it out of course following spook's guidelines on administration (a nurse has to take a docs orders) to help people get clean..but, if you read my last post about all my felonies I'm sure I'd get busted, that seems to be my middle name but at least my intentions would be good....just a thought, it is late, I've had a lousy day and to top it off I can't sleep even with my valerian root.....have a good one  and SPOOK, did ya get the email addy fixed yet?     love to all   cin

[Thomas]

not to oversimplify things but I think spook is trying to set up a hotmail account which requires that you give microsoft a valid return e-mail address. I think he's trying to avoid this and hasn't found the right combination of anonymous servers, satellite dishes, deep space probes and alien space ships to bounce communications off of.

[Frank Lee]

I was just told by an overseas pharmacy that the following were equivalent to buprenorphine...Mogadon and Macrobid? I doubt it, but does anyone have any knowledge about these two?

Thanks,

Frank

[cindi]

Ummm  last I heard macrobid was an antibiotic that was used to treat UTI  (urinary tract infection) and I do believe but I could be mistaken that Mogadon is a benzo???  maybe spook is out there in computer land reading this    and can elaborate?   Tom?   anyone???????HHHHHHHHHeeeeeeeeellllllllooooooo

[spook]

Your not to far of the trac.

This email address is working: ***@****

[spook]

Your not to far of the trac.

This email address is working: ***@****

[spook]

TEMGESIC

Active ingredient:Buprenorphine, an opioid (mixed agonist-antagonist), is a potent "analgesic" that appears to be effective for the treatment of opiate abuse.
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MACROBID

Active ingredient:Nitrofurantoin, an antibacterial drug,is prescribed for the treatment of urinary tract infections caused by certain strains of bacteria.
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MOGADON

Active ingredient:Nitrazepam,a benzodizepine,It is used for the treatment of insomnia.
=======================================================================

[spook]

Well it was for 20 minutes.

[FlowerChild11601]

Hello everyone!  Tom, Cindi, Spook, JB, ALL!  I've been off the forum for quite some time.  Cindi, I want to say that I was sorry to read what you went through earlier in your life!  You were the first person to reach out to me and I have always liked you.  Spook, you are excellent. And Tom too - I was reading your comments and laughing/smiling quite frequently.  I am going to maybe go back the doc soon - want to get the bup.  Tom, I hope you can get it in your area soon.  Cindi, you WERE on to something!  LOL  I am still struggling with chronic pain and the meds.  I cannot stop and live normally.  No amount of massage, hot baths, mineral ice, plain tylenol, etc. relieves the pain when it is bad. Am I condemned to a life of this?  Going back and forth with pain relief and addiction?  Question for everyone:  What herbs to take to help with detox and getting well again?  My massage therapist recommended a few but I want to do some more research.  And there's always the problem of after detoxing, what will I take to relieve the pain and not inflame the addiction?  Thanks, I needed to vent!  God Bless, Maryanne

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Hey, good to hear from you again!  It sounds like we are in the same boat concerning pain meds.  About a month ago I was taken off Lorcet and put on percoset and had a tough time with the change.  The perks work too well so I am trying to limit my useage.  

I have been using some herbal stuff that seems to help so here is a list:  Kava Kava, Ginko Biloba, melatonin, L-Tyrosine and vitamin B6.  I also take milkthistle, folic acid and thiamine.  This works for me!  J.B.

[spook]

Maryanne,well Vented!But you have to take things one step at a time,you are not sure if you can stop using the drugs that make you sick,yet stop the pain,so you should try to relax and see how you fair.The best cure for Addiction is Love,the only herbs I used was a bit of mull.
But seriously their are some very good herbs that can help detox liver and clean kidneys,they can tone the thyroid and breath new life into old lungs,they can put a flutter into a lagging heart and cleanse the Colon and sooth the stomach and quell a tense mind,its just that I will have to go and study it all now.
Without inflaming my addiction to knowledge.

[spook]

Hello

[PS >>>>Annie]

You've briefly mentioned your happenings, but never in detail.
Thanks for sharing it.  You are a STRONG woman!!!! Don't ever let anyone tell you any different.  You've come out of THAT w/ all your marbles intact.  Man you are something else....I'd be committed years now, if that happend to me.  How did you ever get through it.  I'll never understand.  YOUR tough!  YOU GIVE ME HOPE!!
lOVE YA!

ANNIE

[PS >>>>Annie]

lmao.......So that's what Spook has been up too.  This is too much. lol

[cindi]

Hey there girly, i missed you...haven't even seen your name on my buddy list..i was beginning to get a little concerned about you...glad to see yo are hanging in there..sometimes it takes more than one try...it will happen  too bad I didn't save the BUP from the hospital but i'm sure it would have been expired my now anyway..keep in touch   love cin

[cindi]

Hey there,  thanks for the Hello,  i tried the e-mail again with my attachment and it came back...what should I do?  I know, hop a plane and visit the land down under,  I have always wanted to see a koala bear, i enjoyed hearing from you re: those cute little critters...Hey, today is the 17th, hope all is ok with you drop me a line and let me know what is going on with things.....love cin

[cindi]

Hi Hon,  thank you for the compliment re: my above post,  Annie, I am not all that strong, I did almost lose my marbles,  I became very depressed.  took a long time before I went back to work like maybe 3 years...My mom was always there for me and very supportive..she knew how I was suffering and in so much pain..emotional pain...I closed my eyes to sleep and heard baby cries, i heard a baby yelling help...God, it was awful But, at the same time I knew that I had no choice but to go on, I was not letting another person beat me down,,,I knew I still had a whole life in front of me I was just 23 or24,  I knew someday I would meet my soulmate and if God saw fit  and that's a big IF that I would have a child..when i was told I may not conceive i felt like God was punishing me...now look what I have...I still think about it, cry about it but like I said above my baby is in heaven now with it's grandma...Hey there...I miss your e-mails  
on my way to bed...bad day..fridge broke what a mess...talk to yall soon  love  cin

[Hope]

Just wanted to thank you all for your postings.  The help and hope I receive from hearing how you are all surviving and continuing to try, gives me hope.  Cindi, I swear, you are such an inspiration to me after all you have been through and then managed to stay clean and sober and sane!  I have had some very similar experiences and can really relate and I soooo needed that tonight. Fortunatley however, so far, I have been able to elude any legal consequences....how? I don't know!  I have lucked out of some crazy ****.  I appreciate every single one of you and am too sleepy and sick (102 temp.) to expound right now on how each of you have uniquely(sp?) spoken to and helped me. The encouragment I received tonight from just reading ALL of your posts has made life seem worth living one more day. God bless you all tonight.

[spook]

If you have the,time,money and freedom,you are more than welome.
I will ring my Internet service Povider and ask what is going on,they can check their log files.I have recieved email even today from usa and Aus,so I am not sure,I will fix it.I am not playing around with Computer security systems(hotmail) again,well for a while,it stareted this whole problem,they know a lot more about computers than me by far!.
I am just going back to my original ISP with email address of ***@****

[cindi]

Thanks for your comments, yes, my life was such a mess for a very long time and thank God Ididn't go over the edge, I have the 2 most precious children and wonderful husband, my problems led into my addiction, which in turn led me to NA which in turn led me to my husband and now my children,, God works in mysterious ways..now if I could get beyond my mom's death maybe I'll see light again...thank you for your post,  love cindi

[susanlea]

You seem to be a very knowlegable person, I've been reading the forum and have paid attention to the advice you've given others, you also helped me out with a question about methadone. I told you before I had, had a boyfriend for 5 1/2 years. Well about 2 years ago he got some oxy's from a friend and immediately he liked them, he would chew about 40 to 60 mgs at a time, long story short, he was up to about 300mg a day. The worst thing was I have chronic spinal problems, I've taken narcotics on and off for a few years, never more than I should, and he was taking as many pills from me as he could get. He got to a point he was sick all the time, terrible withdrawals, he wanted to die. After being sick for 8 weeks, I finally talked him into going into detox, he was in for 5 days. When he came out he had a great sponser, and went to meetings(required by insurance)for about 6 weeks. During this time, he became very mean, abusive,withdrawn and tired all the time. He moved into another room. I found he had stolen my pills from me, I thought I had hid them well. I called his sponser,friends, family to do an intervention to get him back into rehab. His mother called him and told him that I was out to hurt him and she knew it was all my fault, his addiction. He didn't show. He would threaten to move, wouldn't eat with us, became a shut in,always in his room. Finally I couldn't take anymore, my kids were unhappy.  He moved out the first week of December, and within a week he was coming back,trying as he said to work things out. But he started stealing my pills, and begging me for more, I took 50 pills and flushed them, no more. He became sick again, a month, claimed it was the flu. He went to his dr. and got lots of Methadone. 4 weeks ago he moved out again, he had become,mean, distant,and verbally abusive again. I talked with him the other day, and he says he's still on methadone, no programs, no sponser. He's very angry, it seems at me. He acts like everythings my fault and hates me. This has been a very painful time for my kids and me. I have a sponser in Al-anon and attend meetings weekly. I don't know what to do, we can't seem to even talk. The question I have(sorry it's so long) is, does methadone make an addict act like this, or does he hate himself, I'm trying to get a grasp on anything here, we miss him and love him so much, but I can't help him anymore. When does an addict seek help? Do they have to lose everything? He's lost his kids pretty much, me, and close to losing his job. Guess who's taking care of a 38 year old, his mom, and she will do ANYTHING for him. Thanks for letting me spill this out, I'm just at my wits end and in tears over this, 5 1/2 years gone.....Love Susanlea

[spook]

There is "Hope",but who is the mother now? and whose children will mother theirs?
You will find time cures this pain and as I said before DYING IS NATURAL.

[spook]

Hello,it is obvious that your "partner" is not only not ready to deal with his own emotions,but cannot even come remotely close to feeling empathy for you.
The type of Love that he feels for you is very immature type of Symbiotic Romantic Love,this type of love is illusionary,in that it has not more reason to exist than for sake of the desire it perpetuates and attempts to satiate.
If he is as emotionally immature as I suspect,then he probably is sociopathic,meaning anti-social behavour and a type of self hate.He will blame everybody but himself for any problems that arise.This type of person typically must hit rock bottom before starting to enter the world of "self" realization,he is far from resecting himself and will take decades to repair if ever.
If you can survive without him,wash your hands NOW and say goodbye PERMANENTLY,then put it down to experience.
If you are trapped in the same Symbiotic Romantic Love Addiction that he is,you will not do this and will suffer much pain unnecessarily on his behalf with no reward.
It is time to move on from this person,his mother will look after him and you need to create a stable environment for your children.
I have always said it is harder to give up Romantic Love than any Drug of Abuse,if you can get off this crazy type of love,I think you will be happier,it is difficult,but remember to really LOVE him you must leave him PERMANENTLY and move on and put it all behind you.
You are doing very well,from what I can decipher from written word and I am sure in your heart you think you love him,maybe you do,but he cannot and probably not within a decade be able to return that love ,so please move on in life,I know how much it hurts,but pain is one thing,this relationship is doing "damage".
Some men take a long time to grow up and one must experience much pain to learn,he is running from pain,give him back to his mother,you are already mother to your OWN children.
Maybe when he is 58 he will have his act together,I am not writing him off,its just that it takes time,a lot of time to wear your life with pride and not stumble on your ego.

[Toms Wife]

G'Morning Everyone!

I want to Thank each and every one of you who responded to Tom's posting about his back pain and use of MS Contin.  I wish I could do it in person, but.....

He HATES being chained to the MS CONTIN more than anything.  He HATES not being able to do the things he used to be able to do less than 2 years ago, and you guys and gals gave him the support, understanding and compassion he needed.  And you told him the same thing I told him...."take your meds and don't suffer unneedlessly".  He's lucky to have a doctor that believes he is in chronic pain and is willing to prescribe the RX's he needs instead of making him suffer on a daily basis.  And he still does, trying to stay at a minimum of a daily dosage.

Yes, he is probably addicted to the MS Contin.  But being the strong man that he is, he will one day he kick the pills, should his back "ever" become somewhat normal.  I have reassurred him that there is help out there once he can start to wean himself off the drug.  He's more physically addicted than mentally. Even though, mentally he tears himself up when he has to take more than usual.  He absoulty hates the stuff!  He never takes more than he has to (and if he does, he is bed ridden) and that's a minimum amount as it is.  I have seen him in pain, but refusing to dose himself to relieve it and try to continue on with life.

He's more of a lurker here, but does pretty much read your postings on a daily basis (if he can get on the computer:) and listens to what YOU say.

One day, hopefully, he won't be in so much pain.  Then "WE" can use the info we have found on this site to work our way back to a somewhat normal life again without his usage of MS Contin.  But for right now and in the near future, our lives revolve around him taking the RX to give him a somewhat "normal and decent" quality of life.  Luckily, the Pharmacist is a friend of mine and knows what is going on, so we don't have to deal with people looking down their noses at him.  Our family and close friends also know what is going on, and don't judge him.  He is more harder on himself than anything and he shouldn't be.  He didn't ask for the infection and osteomylitis, which has partially disabled him.  It was just bad luck that the Neuro Surgeon poo pooed his pain off as post-op pain, even four months after the 1st surgery.

One day technology will advance to where his problems can be take care of, at least somewhat, to where the lesser drugs can relieve the extreme pain he is in.  Hopefully that day will come soon.

Again, Thank You from the bottom of my heart, in the support and understanding that you have shown him.  He's a Good Man who drew the short straw when it came to back surgery.

"Toms Wife".............Lynda

[cindi]

oo many people in this country sfffer needlessly with pain, this past dec. when my my was dyding they refused to increase or change her meds because she might beocme addicted..My God the woman was dying  on christmas morning she passed away and then God we had found a doc that was willing to treat her..Someday when the time is right your husband will not have to take his MS contin, my husband and I are both chronic pain people..so I know how you and Tom feel...You are a very warm a caring person thea loves her husbnnd very much..Good luck to the both you you and Bod blees you     love cindi

[susanlea]

Thank you.  I know your right.  I have to leave this relationship behind. I do love him enough to let him go. I stayed with him and stayed loyal to him the past 2 years, and you are right, he is emotionally and mentally stunted. He could not show any emotion other than anger. For the past 2 years he couldn't laugh, enjoy food, movies, nothing. He's like a zombie. He wouldn't want and couldn't have sex, but I hung in there anyway. I finally realized through theraphy and Al-anon that I was an enabler. I got this great book at the Library, 'Facing Love Addiction, by Pia Melody" I recommend this book for everyone. It talks about couples, addictions, and how we relate to each other. I do wish him well, he had everything, now he hardly has anything. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to care. He's aged tremendously from doing drugs, he looks more like 58, than 38 in such a short time. One day at a time, and as Al-anon says 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference'. I'm still afraid what he will do if the Dr. cuts him off, I can't imagine a family Dr. giving him methadone, over long periods of time.  I would think the pharmacy would be suspious. Also, I live in Va. there have been major drug busts here, Oxycotin. There have been 37 deaths from overdoses in the past year, theres talk on TV daily about the DEA tracking the use of this drug, by whom and which Drs. I hope it doesn't effect those that really need it for pain. This is a wonderful forum, it's so full of compassion, and a needed dose of reality, thank you so much.   Love Susan

[neenie]

close call was from the pharm, where i was illegally trying to seek meds. so i had 2 scripts that were not made out 2 me but someone else and i ripped them up b/c i will never d o that again. i know the trouble i can get into. the pharm who never usually calls the doc called the doc yesterday to verify if it was legit. the doc said no and guess what? i work with that doc. that is why i know all the info that needs 2 go on these scripts. spook, do they regulate these scripts? for the ones i have done in the past, does the dea audit them? they have other people's names on them. not mine but they all come from the same hosp and the pharm. all recognize me now, that's why they started to call now. b4 they would just give me the meds but i guess i did  it too much so now he has been verifying. can years go by and then they still find out?

[PS >>>>Annie]

Lynda, I know what he is going through.  This is why I first started coming to this board.  I thought something was wrong w/ me to want this medication.  
I know why he is scared also.  He is worried about being a slave to this medication, and what if its abruptly cut off for some reason.  There is much that goes through a painers mind.  If his doctor is one the highly "informed" ones, than he will titrate the meds down when necessary.  There are ways to take care of the physical dependance....there are meds for this too.  
Best wishes, and God bless you for being so caring.  I know how lonely it can be when you feel that everyones abandoned you, and doesn't understand.  

Love,

Annie

[spook]

Try to relax a bit,you have not sinned.The scripts are legit,just issued to wrong person and will be processed,it is cross refenced on a data base as to whom a presciption is issued to and by which doctor and at the Pharmacy end same thing happens,at the moment the computers are not up to scanning every script in the USA and checking the data base of the doctors submital information on presciptions written and to whom,if the names you chose are actual People with real addresses then it is very unlikely they will get back to you in the the next decade,however as everything becomes computer automated,eventually,a data base will not correlate with another and an alarm bell will go of,even then it may take DEA`s years to follow it up,And if you are eventually caught,by then compassion and rehabilitation for Drug addicts will be the order of the day.
I once manipulated a script and the Pharmacy told me what I had done and said I cannot process this you bad boy,here I will let you out(they had auto locking doors)and thought I was busted,but some people actually understand the extremes an Opioid Addict in pain and withdrawal will go to, to get relief.
Sad the the DEA`s do not have more compassion.Or is that a generalization?.I think so.

[spook]

Is this the wife of Patrick,also known as Thomas,who has a hot mail address ***@****,if so where is Thomas we miss him.

[PS >>>>Annie]

....I've been wondering where he has been, but this is not the same Tom.  I know because, Patrick/thomas posted to "TOM."  They are 2 different people.  
I think I will email Thomas/Patrick......just to let him know we are thinking of him.

Annie

[cindi]

Hi Linda, first I have to apologize for the post I sent above I can't believe the errors,,My God!!! it was very late at night and I had the lights down so the kids go sleep being that I have Galucoma I am not able to see much at all in the dark..anyway, I wanted to see how Tom was coming along....you guys will get through all of this  You are such a wonderfully caring and compassionate woman who is so very supportive of her husband....he is a very lucky person......Keep us up to dat on how he is doing good luck     cindi