Anyone have any updates on treatment with Subutex/Suboxone?

Please let us know your first hand experiences with this new treatment for opiate addiction.  Thanks.

I wonder if you keep building a tolerance, rendering it ineffective, like other opiates, or if it really "holds" you.

All insights will be appreciated and helpful.  Thanks, and best wishes to all.  freezing.

[pharmdee]

SUBOXONE CONTAINS AN OPIOID THAT IS A KAPPA RECEPTOR AGONIST,WHILE SUBUTEX CONTAINS AN OPIOID AGONIST AND AN ANTAGONIST,BOTH ARE SCHEDULE 3 MEDICATIONS...THERE WOULD BE A GREATER ADDICTION POTENTIAL FOR SUBOXONE...

[Thomas03]

pharmdee, that's what you get going online before you've had your coffee.

Subutex is buprenorphine, the kappa agonist. Suboxone is buprenorphine plus, favorite of every junkie (LOL), nalaxone, a potent opiate antagonist. The nalaxone is there to render Suboxone useless for injection. Suboxone is not the first med to include nalaxone to discourage injection. Talwin NX tabs also contain nalaxone.

I've been told that Suboxone is only available for a 5-day detox, not maintenance.

Thomas

[Vicqueennomore]

I know I haven't posted in awhile still dealing w/pain & addiction.
My question is: Once you have the narcs out of your body do either of those you mentioned or something else get rid of the cravings???
Just curious...I saw something about Rapid Detox having a med that got rid of cravings.....
Thanks for a response...
Tammy

[g.g.]

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[Thomas03]

I've heard that claim about rapid detox, too. They put you under anaesthesia (or sedation) and give you naltrexone by IV. I don't know if this procedure really eliminates all cravings. I've heard that, as long opiate metabolytes remain in your tissues (and periodically re-enter your blood stream), you will get cravings. I don't know what effect, if any, naltrexone has on these stored opiate metabolytes. I recall that Bodymechanic had something to say about this. Maybe he's around ... Hang in there, darlin. Recovery takes practice.

Thomas

[Vicqueennomore]

Thanks Thomas!!!
I have to say the pain out weighs the cravings or do they go hand in hand?? Either way, how does one recover successfully when pain still exists?? Is it the pain that wants the meds or the cravings as an addict??
I wanted to know about the med to subside cravings so I could maybe find that out...
Any ideas??
Tammy
JERRI - Please don't yell at me, I am fragile right now(LOL)...

[minime]

I am currently on Suboxone treatment.  I found my doctor through the Samhsa physician locator.  I've been on maintenance for almost 2 months, and I take 1 8 mg tab in the a.m. and 1 8 mg tab in the p.m.  I have absolutely no cravings at all, and I feel better than I've felt in years.  The Naloxone in it is inactive unless injected.  Subutex is not available yet in the U.S., and it will only be available through your doctor for a 5 day detox.

Yes Suboxone is an opiate - Buprenorphine and yes it is addicting.  I think of it as the lesser of two evils.  I can stick to the dose that is prescribed to me - it takes willpower because the addict in me always says more is better.  My life is so much better and in control.  I take 2 pills per day, and I don't have to worry about getting more meds anymore - no more lies, etc.  Plus, the bonus is my insurance pays for most of it, so I only pay about $30 per month.  It's almost too good to be true.

[g.g.]

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[Thomas03]

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[Thomas03]

I think of cravings and pain as different motivators that often coincide. In the past, when I've been clean of opiates long enough not to have continuous cravings, any legitimate pain that would crop up would cause me to anticipate a doctor visit and the Rx that might result. That would get me jonesing big time.

To my mind, recovery for a chronic pain patient would be recapturing the ability to use pain meds as prescribed. I can't see how absolute abstinence would be an option for those who are in pain. Also, I don't know of a drug that will satisfy cravings without producing some degree of pain relief.

Thomas

[minime]

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[Vicqueennomore]

That makes total sense, even though I am not going to be getting any narcotics from the dr on thurs I guess it has created a little Mr. Jones, as they say, in me. At this point though, if a 200mg tylenol worked I would be satisfied....just not use to it cuz the Vics took care of it all this time.
Any suggestions for pain meds that are not NSAID's or narcs....
key word...suggestions...pinched nerve in neck referred pain down left arm and knot the size of a golf ball in left shoulder blade...anyone else like this???
Just looking for ideas to maybe tell the doc on thurs....
Thanks all!!
Tammy

[freezing]

I am sooo glad you are doing well on the Suboxone.  Congratulations!  

I hope I can get on it.  My addiction doc said I am not an addict, only "physically dependent", thus,  he did not want to put me on it.

Man, my addiction increases every day (again).  I am always getting the tingle/chills and upset stomach, even while on fentanyl patch.  **(I did the rapid detox to get off methadone.  The natrexone does not stop cravings folks, nor did any of the other meds.  I felt worse AFTER the rapid detox, then after CT off severe opiate addiction.  I say AFTER, b/c through the actual detox, I felt fine.  It was from a week through a month later that I felt like constant hell, thus finally relapsed.  I went throught this twice (twice through the rapid detox and relapse).)**

I imagine I will be on the suboxone for life, but that's fine if I do as well as you are doing.  I was asked to run for political office (State House seat), and I just can't (yet), my level of functioning going to 50% every time I feel w/d's (several times a day).

minime, please email me, as I really want to discuss this more with you, please.  ***@****
thanks a lot, freezing (Steve)

[freezing]

I just read your 3/1 post.  Thank you.

Why would one exceed their dose of suboxone (sounds like stupid question), presuming one truly wants to be back to normal?  I do not want to use opiates (thus the reason I did that RAAD twice, for lots of money).  If the two pills of Suboxone a day will hold me, ending my constant w/d's, I will not be inclined to increase.  

Right now, I have no choice but to keep increasing b/c of constant and increasing w/d's.  I cannot run my business, political life, investment ventures, mentoring, family, and other activities that I am extremely motivated to pursue.  I know I cannot beat this addiction.  I don't use in order to get high, just to be able to function (like many of us here).

(The second rapid anas. ass'd detox was like four or six weeks after the first.  (I was in a state of panic.)  If I could do it over, I would have CT'd it and gotten on the naltrexone after a week of hell, saved $13,000, and probably have had a much better shot at success.  Shoot, I could have bought a lot of dope b4 CT if I had only known!)

Anyway, I will approach my pain doc, not my addiction doc about getting on the suboxone.  They are both certified to dispense it.  I think I will do it this week.  Any words of wisdom about getting started with the doc on it, and how they establish the maintenance dosing?  What do you think about the chances of a 5 day detox, in contrast to the long term maintenance?

Thanks a lot!!!

[minime]

"Why would one exceed their dose of suboxone (sounds like stupid question), presuming one truly wants to be back to normal?" I find that question peculiar coming from a fellow addict.

That is the question us addicts have to ask ourselves every day?  Why do people divert their Methadone doses?  Why are their many Buprenorphine addicts in Europe? Why, why why?  It is something to really think about before you start any type of maintenance on your own - what I mean is dosing yourself every day and not having to go to a clinic every day - having a lot of medication at your fingertips every day.

You said you have two doctors able to prescribe it, so it sounds like you are all set.  However, I wonder why your pain doctor would be licensed to prescribe it.  It is not legal to prescribe it for pain.  He could prescribe Buprenex for pain - injectible Buprenex but not Suboxone.  Have you considered that route?  If a doctor was prescribing Suboxone "off lable" - for pain - and I got onto a comfortable maintenance program, I would be worried that the doctor might get in trouble for doing so and my meds might stop abruptly.  Supposedly, they (Big Brother) is going to be keeping a very close watch on doctors prescribing Suboxone - that they adhere to the 30 patient limit, follow prescribing guidelines, etc.  It's just something to consider before you choose your doctor - I'm paranoid I guess.

It sounds like you have options and the means with which to follow up.  Good luck to you, and please write about your experience with it if you choose to go with Suboxone.  I think there will be plenty of people who are interested in hearing more.

[theGolden1]

You have so much to offer .. do whatever it takes to get free of these drugs. There is no easy way out. It has to take a month or more, but isn't it worth it? If you don't take care of yourself, you will not be well enough to enjoy the fruits of your labors.
Vitamins, good food, excersize ... tons of distilled water. The question is "where do you want to spend your retirement"? On the beach or in a nursing home? Your own personal well being is the number one priority ... Goldie

[minime]

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[sharonver]

Hello...

I can't answer for minime- but for myself and many others I can say that my reason for not wanting to stay on meth. maintenance is that they have such a tight control over your life!! I stayed clean for more than 15 years- no cravings etc.  But having to go to a clinic environment after all those years "clean" can be disturbing after awhile.  It is hard to live your life trying to hide all of that from employment etc. I work for the government so I am sure that you most know what I mean!!  Being on bup. would be so much easier for a lot of reasons- no clinic environment and the detox is a lot quicker and milder. i have been trying to get on this med but right now the doctor in my area isn't set up yet. So I am slowly trying to do this on my own. But at least I know that if i can't do it alone I can see this doc when his office is ready.  So for me its my back-up measure.  Good Luck, it sounds like you have a fulfilling life and I know that you want to make the best of it.

Sharon

[real life]

Your symtoms (symptoms) with pinched nerve in neck  sounds very familiar to me this happened to me before I became addicted, about 6 years ago my then husband insisted his Chiropractor friend could cure be, NOT he herniated the 6 & 7 cervical vertabrae in my neck through manipulation or cracking my neck. So I went to my then Medical doc and he introduced me to pain meds and soma and whatever else that might help the pain was inescapable and I had to work I finally went to My doc and he ordered MRI which showed new damage and I went to Physical therapy for about a month 3 days a week. They used traction machine (wonderful for taking pressure off nerve)then was put on ice (neck) and then heat then they did a massage. After 1st visit I was feeling relief and insurance covered. After the month I didn't even think about pain meds...remember this was in my innocent days of not knowing the joy of taking more than prescribed. But this worked for me and just wanted to offer it. I know all pain is horrible but this was the worst I suffered.       p.s. ice collar at home helped also.. hang in there I was cured and have had maybe 2 setbacks since that went away with ice and massage. lol           real life

[Vicqueennomore]

Thank you soooo much for responding. Severe headache is now added to my list. I was actually doing lamaze breathing last night, that's pretty bad!!!
I knew of the heat but the ice part is new to me. How do I do that? Ice then heat then ice, how long???
I need to get thru these next 24 hours and my tolerence is diminishing, I am getting weaker to handle the pain. I know for a fact I am not getting any narcs tomorrow and I am ok with that as long as whatever he gives me works. I am allergic to aspirin and related products sooooo God only knows whats gonna happen. He's a DO and does manipulation of the spine/neck but I know from experience that I hurt even worse for a few days after.
Any idea of a med that may work that I can suggest to him that is non narcotic and not aspirin related...I think there are a few nurses and/or Pharm Techs that post here. Please help...
Thanks!!
Tammy

[Vicqueennomore]

Please read my above post!!

[sharonver]

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[Jackson67]

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[peaz]

I saw your post about pain relievers, and I need some clarification.  Do you not want acetaminophen because of the previous intake w/ narcotics?  And why are NSAIDS out?  What, specifically have you tried thus far? I tried to go back and read, but I can't find any specifics.  Thanks  Peaz

[Vicqueennomore]

Thanks for responding...
This is a reoccuring problem from a car accident and surgery is not really an option or I should say as I was told, we could do surgery and fix it but it will cause other problems you don't want.
Anyway, I am allergic to NSAID's/aspirin/anti-inflammatories, that's why I was put on Vicodin's. This flares up about every 6 months or so or if I sneeze wrong or move the wrong way and lasts 6 or more weeks, depending on treatment, therapy etc...
We basically just kept up with the Vics and went back and forth with the insurance company on approval of therapy(bad ins). Now, I don't have insurance.
I have tried just tylenol and beleive me I wish it would work but its not and the pain is debilitating. I DO NOT want to go back on the narcotic pain meds as I do not trust the addictive personality in me, nor do I want to go thru another w/d. If there isn't anything out there, I may have to do the narc meds and give them to my BF to hand out to me, don't really want to do that cuz he really doesn't want to be involved in all this but he would if he had to.
Does this help???
Thanks for whatever advice you may have....
Tammy

[freezing]

I stayed clean when on methadone, but like you, I could not stand being treated like a criminal, and being tied daily to the clinic lines, and to town.

I had been prescribed bupe for pain, but it is a much lower dose than for addiction maintenance, thus was ineffective for pain and for addiction.

The pain doctor is separately certified as a suboxone addiction doc, as well as regular physician, thus can prescribe the suboxone for addiction only, but not for pain, as you surmised.

The kappa antagonist properties are what makes it attractive to me, as I get pretty severe depression, not a nice high, from other opiates, that are kappa, as well as mu agonists.  I really don't want to take opiates, even with a great supply, believe it or not.  I cannot overcome the severe physical dependence.  Whether this makes me an addict is semantics as far as I am concerned.  I am addicted, that's for sure.  I just need to be able to get on with my life, and am hoping that the suboxone is the answer.  

Thank you both for the input and insights, really.  **I am scared about getting started on subox and worried about the "application"/start-up process.  How does that aspect work?**

Please keep helping!  Thanks.  freezing.

[g.g.]

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[PING]

hi everyone. just checking on you, hope everyone is having a good day. i havn't posted for a  long time, but have been reading all the post's. i have been tapering off of oxy's for a few months, the dr gave me a script for a med i have ever heard of today, its name is neurontin, said he has been having good luck with it, and not addictive, we have high hope's of it doing the job, i sure want to be off of the oxy's. take care and peace to all.
                              lee.

[Jackson67]

He actually precsribed both, told me to start with the subutex, it's not available  . . . . yet.  I'll called the manufacturer,  he said a couple of weeks, I'll keep the prescription till then.  Been on the Subonex for a day now, don't feel that bad . . . . YET & hopefully I won't(Praying to god) Have some muscle relaxers at night to help me sleep, they seem to be working pretty good.  I'll let you know how it goes, hope it works this time . . . .  again!

Good Luck Everyone !!
Jackie

[Jackson67]

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[peaz]

You drive a hard bargain, Missy!  LOL   There aren't a whole lot of things out there when you diqualify so many choices... Since I am not a pharmacist, I don't know if being allergic to one NSAID means you can't take ANY.  I know we dispensed a lot of diclofenac (Voltaren XR), Oruvail (ketoprofen), and Naprosyn for your type of symptoms, but those are all anti-inflammatories which you say you cannot take.  And I doubt if they would handle your pain, anyway.  It sounds like you have some major discomfort going on there in your neck.  
   Have you discussed alternatives w/ your MD?  He's who you should be talking to.There may be new things that have come out on the market recently that I am not aware of.  Talk to your phamacist, too.  (If you don't have one, find one you trust  and use his information as a matter of course.  They know MUCH more about drugs, reactions, and and over-all  chemical knowledge than an MD would ever dare HOPE for.  In other words, don't go to the bakery for a hammer.  :-)
   I know I have helped you zip, but I tried.....I don't want to blow a bunch of smoke up your ass because that won't help anybody.  LOL  My, I have a way w/ words...!  Peace--- Peaz

[minime]

I've posted this a million times but once more won't hurt.  SUBUTEX IS NOT AVAILABLE, and it WON'T BE AVAILABLE EVER to be picked up at the pharmacy (in the U.S.)  It will only be dispensed, when the manufacturer is ready, by a doctor who is licensed, in his/her office, only for a 3-5 day detox - not for maintenance.  

SUBOXONE IS AVAILABLE NOW, but your pharmacy will probably need to order it from their wholesaler.

Go back to your doctor, and ask for a prescription for SUBOXONE.

[lovepills]

I posted a couple of times to you. You'll have to look. I think one is on your thread tapering off of Paxil and there is one or two somewhere out there. I'm still getting use to this message board. It is very confusing.

[minime]

g.g. - I would have to be the doctor to know that.

freezing - Please check out www.Suboxone.com and www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov.  You will find your answers there.  There are phone numbers posted, which you should utilize.  The professionals and doctors there are really the ones to answer the rest of your questions.  I've told you everything I know.  Good luck.

[Vicqueennomore]

Just got back from dr and he gave me Neurontin and for very short term relief, Ultram...he warned me of the potential and I know from the boards. My D.O.C. is Vicodin and I have  other "addictive" meds in my possession and don't abuse them, just those damn little Vics....so we'll see...
I just wanted to thank you for your responses and Jackson67 for your suggestion of the Neurontin cuz I told my dr about it.
No sleep last night so now that the pain is not sooo intense I am going to go take a nap...
Thanks!!!
Tammy

[freezing]

I was prescribed Neurontin.  The first couple nights it let me go to sleep well.  It felt tranqulizing, a lot like valium.  Then it seemed to not have any effect but to make me crave food.  I mean I was ravishing food, starving and stuffing all day and night!  Especially carbs and sweets, much more than usual, as I the opiates make me crave sweets, as I'm sure you all know too well.

Regarding Suboxone, my last question:  I have researched, but still don't know if it really holds you, so you don't need to increase.  I don't mean want to increase, I mean need to increase, like all opiates other than perhaps methadone, do to me.  I have not read that it satisfies all receptors, and does not build a tolerance within you.  Does it really hold you "permanently", without the NEED to increase, presuming you don't want to get high?  From responses I have read here and elsewhere, people imply that it really holds them, but I need to know for sure, or at least be reasonably sure before I take the step.  Please let me know if it really holds you, unlike all other opiates (except methadone).  Thanks in advance!

[PING]

hi. my dr gave me a script yesterday, for neurontin also, 1 cap at bed time the first two nights, then one twice a day for two days, and then three a day for a month, i have been on oxycintin
for a several months, before that percocet for 5 yrs. he says he has had good luck with it with other paients. would like to hear how it works for you, i am only taking 2-3 oxy's a day, so we are hoping to get off the oxy's in the near future. hope it works for both of us. thanks for reading this, anyone else that might know how neurontin works, please respond, forgive my poor spellng. peace to all.
                             lee.

[minime]

Having been on it for only 2 months, I can say it holds me.  I think you need to talk with an addiction doctor about it, and then try it.  What do you have to lose.  At this point, I don't have anything else to add about it.

[minime]

This is my last word about this, but you said you need to know if it really holds you before you try it.  I really don't understand what you have to lose by trying it.  There are no guarantees about this or anything else in life.  Most have only been on it a matter of months, as it is a new drug.  We can only say what it has done for us short-term.  You can read the studies as well as I can.

I wanted to help, which is why I responded to you, but it seems as though you won't get treatment without some sort of guarantee that it will "cure" you with little to no work on your part.  

If I were you and was that desperate to know more, I would talk with an addiction doctor about it.  Then I'd try it.  Good luck to you.

[kilo]

Neurontin is prescribed as an adjunct therapy for pain control, thus being an off label use. Neurontin is orginally prescibed for seizure disorders, along the same line as Dilantin. Adjunct therapy for pain control utilizes anti-seizure meds, anti-depressants, and other nerve blocking agents.
Many pain specialists use these medications in determining if your pain is neuropathic in nature. Since anti-seizure and anti-depressant meds block impluse transmission from nerve synapsis to nerve synapsis, its use may very well block transmission of pain signals across nerve synapsis as well.
Neuropathic pain usually does not respond well to opiates, so trails of adjunct therapy usually provide a clinical pathway for treating your pain (neuropathic -vs- non-neuropathic).
Hope this helps.  Peace

Kilo

[freezing]

Of course I have talked to my addiction doc numerous times about Suboxone.  Also, he is the one who teaches the certification classes to the other addiction doctors in this part of the country!  He seems to know less than you do, and no more than I do after all the research I have done.  Once I take this step, I fear I would jeopardize my pain treatment (and needed opiate maintenance level) if the subox does not work for me.  Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but that's my fear.  Plus the addiction doc says I'm not addicted, just physically dependent, and thus I do not qualify for the Suboxone!  Anyway, thanks.  I'll be pursuing for the treatment.  Take care.  Be well.  I'll update you after I get started.  (Plus, I don't like the fact that we will be monitored by the FDA and permanently labeled by the Federal Gov't as drug abusers and addicts in their database, which as I'm sure you know, is a fact.)

[Thomas03]

I think your caution is well justified, especially since Suboxone patients end up on Big Brother's black list. What kind of society offers addicts relief at the cost of permanent stigmatization? Who will have access to this black list, under what circumstances, and for what purpose? Does anyone know?

Thomas

[Jerri2]

Amen to that Thomas!!         Jerri

[Thomas03]

If you came away from your reading with a rosy glow about the intentions of the DEA, you didn't read enough.

[minime]

I've done some reading on what you said about the government monitoring/tracking those that are on Suboxone.  I can't find anything substantiating that statement.  What I've read says that the DEA will monitor drug distribution channels and local drug markets to look for illicit traffic.  I don't think our names and information will be put into some huge database - to me that sounds paranoid, but a lot of addicts are it seems.  Even if we are put into a database, what do you think will happen with that information?  In this day and age, none of us are invisible.  Every narcotic prescription you pick up at the pharmacy is recorded and accounted for.  Whatever, I'm not going to let paranoia get in the way of the best treatment plan I've had.

[afriend]

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but what would the DEA be doing if the Suba/Subox cured every addict? Would they be busting the 80 year old woman for growing 1 pot plant, that helps her with her Glaucoma? Then would they would start a pot seed list? ...afriend....

[minime]

I didn't come away from it with a rosy glow, but I didn't read anything that made me feel paranoid about my future.  If you need help, you need help.  I personally don't really care what they are going to do with the information, because I don't really have anything to hide anymore...ya know?  If it makes my life worth living right now, then I'm not going to let fear get in my way.

[afriend]

Your right, you have to do whats right and comfortable for you!! I'm glad everything is going well for you and I wish you the best in your quest to be healthy, happy and free of the abuse. Love, hugs, friends....afriend....smile!

[lisabet]

I agree with Thomas.  There is a difference between being paranoid and being cautious.  I don't blame freezing for thinking long and hard about the decision to use Sub.  It sounds like freezing is weighing all the options, the pros and the cons, which IMO, is both the "cautious" and smart thing to do. minime, I'm glad you're benefiting from the treatment; hope you continue to do so, and freezing - hope you make the decision in this matter is comfortable and right for you. Good luck to you both, Love, Lisabet

[Thomas03]

I suggest you look up the use of the word paranoid in relation to the history or civil rights in the United States before you start using that word to insult me and others on this forum. Perhaps you simply have no understanding of computer technology and the significance of electronic information. It doesn't matter that you can't find definitive documents about current or proposed uses for your prescription drug records as it resides in DEA information systems. The very fact that that information exists in that database now opens the door for potentially horifying uses in the future.

Imagine a not-to-distance future where a prospective employer can not only access your credit records, but can view a list a every controlled drug you've ever used in your life. Needless to say, having Suboxone on your list will tell that prospective employer that minime is a poor risk because she obvioulsy is a junkie and therefore a poor risk for the company, not to mention ineligible for the company's medical insurance plan. How about applying for a home loan? A car loan? A passport? A career working with children? Acceptance to a good university? A student loan?

When the powers that be implement their full strategy to use this information, all us addicts will be stripped of our civil rights, denied the right to vote, investigated and jailed, and, basically,become the underclass in the Republican Utopia of the Halves and the have nots.

minime, wake up from your misguidely smugg and santimonious reverie and realize that all I have said will, in fact, happen to the "other guy." Trouble is, we are all the "other guy."

Thomas

[ryates1121]

after a 2 year addition to opiates i was clean in 7 days from suboxone

[GoingToMakeIt]

Welcome to the forum. Why don't you start a new post and share your experiences. This a old post.