Catalytic anti-bodies?

[Kate]

Has anyone heard of a antibody being developed that consumes cocaine as soon as it enters the body. It is supposed to work continuously over a 30 day period. Meaning no matter how much crack you smoke you won't get high. Sounds too good to be true, huh?

[Off Topic But Need Feedback]

To start off...  Kate- I have heard of something similar to what you describe but I don't know enough to comment on it, Sorry.  It sounds like it would really help lots of people.  

I am a 5 year plus narcotic user.  I have rheumatoid arthritis, degenerative disc disease, fibromyalgia, dual entrapped sciatic nerves ... shall I go on? (lol!).  I am being treated by a specialist.  I get 120 vicodin a month plus 60 10mg oxycontin, 90 soma ,30 1mg ativan and 30 ambien(to sleep).  Needless to say, I do need aggressive pain management.  I found myself double doctoring, getting 90 percoset a month from my primary - each doctor not knowing I was getting double meds.  When I went through 120 vicodin in a little over a week, I got really scared.  Even if I run out of everything - I have ready access to refills.  I realized I must stop this!  I turned all my meds over to my husband and have been only taking my prescribed doses for about 4 days now, using 1/2 tablet of ativan in the late afternoon to quell the bit of anxiety I start to feel.  Today I only took my oxycontin and 2 vicodin.  This is a major cutback for me but I felt really good!  My head is starting to clear and I am starting to feel more motivated.  

I have read every single post on this board over the past week and finally got the guts to post myself.  I am a nurse.  Well, I am a retired nurse because of my disability I am no longer able to work.  Back in May I decided to let all my scripts run out and stop taking anything - oh my god I thought I was going to die.  I told my doctors this and their response was "this is not the time to deal with dependance, your pain management at this time is the main concern, there may come a point in time when we can deal with the dependancy but now is not the time."  

So... now I am trying to justify my dependance/addiction with the words of the people who's care I depend on.  Any feedback?  If I can live on 2 10mg oxy and a couple of vicodin for breakthrough pain and an occasional ativan for anxiety - is this a bad thing?  I do recognize that I need pain control or I am curled up in a stiff useless ball of pain.  Will this be the rest of my life?  I know I can't do what I had begun to do - abuse the drugs by taking them in large doses just to feel good.  That really started to suck, and scare me.  

I would have posted a new thread but the system wouldn't let me.  I am sorry for that and hope you all respond.  I feel I know you all because I can relate deep in my core to all your stories.  I also feel I can help because of my first hand experience and my professional background.  I woke up at 3am with the shakes and diarrhea to beat the band, but what did I do?  I took 2 soma and a bentyl (antispasmodic) to calm my gut down and decided it was time to reach out to you guys.  

Is there a happy medium somewhere between abuse and living comfortably at our prescribed doses?  I just started the oxy and I think so far it's a lifesaver!  I am able to avoid the roller coaster and only take the vicodin for breakthrough agony.  

Any feedback you can give me will be so appreciated.  I look forward to getting to know you guys.  Thanks so much for listening.

OffTopic Blathering Chick :)

[Frankinscense]

You need to take control of your addiction. Only take what you absolutely need to live a normal life. If you cannot take control of your addiction. You might consider methadone or LAAM maintenance. Opiate addicition is a serious and dangerous disease. It times it almost sounds like you are bragging or boasting about the medicines that you take. This a serious and debilatating disease if you let get out of control. The pills that you are taking are morphine substitutes with almost the same addictive properities. Support is not about sugar coating this serious disease. Do the right thing and remember what you learned in nursing school about addictive substances.
Stay Focused and Good Luck,
Doc Dan..

[Deja to Vicodin Girl]

Dan,

Thanks for the reply.  I really didn't mean to come off sounding like I was "bragging or boasting" about the meds I take.  That wasn't my intent at all, I assure you.  I'm sorry if I came off sounding that way.  I was trying to be honest.  I know you are an active participant in this forum and you are a source of great inspiration and support for everyone.  The last thing I want to do here is, well... blather on and sound like an idiot.  Anyway - I do thank you sincerely for your response.  

blathering chick :)

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

It sounds to me that you may have been drug seeking and got scared after taking a month's worth of painkillers in a week. I think anyone except for really hardcore abusers would get concerned. It is good that you are trying to cut down! I let my wife control my meds as I've had problems with abuse in the past. She keeps mine in her safe.
I have some of the medical problems that you have so I know how the pain can get to you. Sometimes it is depressing when you think about the long term aspect of narcotic pain control. I have a niece that has been on narcotics since 1992 for chronic pain and it has really made her life all but unfit. She was in med school when she was involoved in a terrible car accident that caused spinal problems that can't be repaired. She is a legal junkie but I would never trade places with her just so I could have narcotics. Now look who's blathering here!

[Deja to Vicodin Girl]

Chronic pain *is* depressing sometimes.  I'm sorry about your neice, wow.  You aren't blathering! I like to read what you have to say.  I am glad I am not alone in turning my meds over to someone else and having them doled out.  Weird thought I keep having though...  if I continue taking the dose I have been, by the end of the month I am going to have a surplus... then I get my refills - wow -  I keep thinking - when I have a reserve - would it be so bad to play a little for a few days?  I know the answer to that!! It would be VERY bad!!  I guess it's time to start working on the mental aspect of this thing.  Thanks for your input! Stay strong :)

blathering chick - also known as Deja

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Have you heard the old expression "it's better to have and not need than to need and not have"? Just having the peace of mind that you are not going to run out of meds is important to well being.  My wife has been taking Xanax and Lortab for six years now and always has a surplus. She is not an addict now or has ever gotten into abuse. She is the epitomy of moderation and that's why I can trust her as I do. Why we all can't be this way is a mystery to me! Left to my own devices, I would be in deep sh*t within a month with my addictive personality. Just a thought to ponder.  Be well!

[Deja to Vicodin Girl]

Wow - You are so right about the stress, lack of respect for what we do and the general burn out factor alone that comes with the nursing profession!  Before I had to stop working because of my disease I left patient care and went to work as a technical field support person for a big medical laboratory.  I was on the road visiting doctors and teaching their staff- yadda yadda yadda - needless to say - it was great!  I was also being handed sample meds by the bagful - not so good in retrospect, lol.  "Hey! Need some xanax today?"  Duh!!  

I did something not so honorable yesterday.  My husband hurt his back at work, went to the doctor and was prescribed vicodin ES.  I took ONE last night.  So - my total for yesterday was 2 oxy, one ES and one regular 5.5 (and my 3 soma for the day)...  better than I was a few weeks ago but I shouldn't have taken that ES.  I told him to hide his pills -  I can't be trusted.  So now he has his hidden, mine hidden and he fills my bottle with only my prescribed dose for the day of which there has been left overs in every day for about a week now.  

Boy - I know what you mean about having that relief to look forward to at the end of the day.  I remember coming home so emotionally and physically spent - taking those pills and feeling "normal".  What a way to live, eh?

Would love to chat with you.  Do you have ICQ?  I could give you my email address also.

Deja (aka blathering chick)

[To Trish from Kate]

......Now getting back to the original question. Doc Dan? Tom?
Anyone?

[Frankinscense]

Euphoria is not a healthy state of mind. It is what keeps you addicted to opiates. It is a very unhealthy coping mechanism. There is a term for nurses like you. It is called impaired medical professionals. I have a lot of respect for the nursing profession as a whole,it is a wonderful helping profession. Get a hold of your addiction and get some help. You sound like you are a very intellegent young lady. You need to address your pain and
and addiction problems in a more appropiate manner. You are in the early stages of your addiction get a hold of it before it damages your career. I must say there are more nurses who cope and face the problems without turning to substance abuse. Do the right thing.
Sincerely,
Dan
ps: A good pain/addiction specialist is the way to go.

[Frankinscense]

I have read that there is a vacination being researched to abolish or help with cocaine cravings.
Doc Dan..

[Vicodin Gurrl to Dan]

Hi there, welcome to the forum!  As a nurse myself and also a chronic pain sufferer/addict, I think we will have a lot to offer each other by way of support!  I have met/read about SO MANY other nurses who are also addicts, whether simply due to recreational use or as a result of injuries or both.  I often wonder if there is something inherent in the profession that leads nurses to abuse drugs.  We function day after day in a relentles, high stress profession. If we haven't had the good fortune of learning BEFORE becoming nurses how to cope with stress in productive ways, I believe we are left with almost no other choice but to turn to drugs or alcohol.  Unlike physicians, who function in the same environment that we do, we do not usually receive the necessary respect, support and accolades that they do.  Its damn hard.  There are nights I come home from work feeling so beaten down by my fellow nurses, the demands of my patients and the physicians I work with.  That fact combined with pain and exhaustion leaves me oftentimes thanking God that I have something I can take (ie opiates) to make me feel a little bit of happiness and euphoria at the end of my day...I am looking to get into another area of nursing that will provide me with a work environment that is less "challenging" than the one I am currently in (a high risk specialty area).  Until then, I know I cannot give up the pills.  It's so sad I think.  I work incredibly hard to provide my patients with as pain-free an existance as humanly possible, yet I cannot do the same for myself at this time.  Sorry to rant, I just had to get some things out.  Good luck to you, and hopefully you will post again soon, as I (as well as Im sure everyone else here) am very interested in hearing more about you and how your cut-backs are going!  Peace...

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Sorry to be butting in here but I think you may be right about the nursing profession.
My mother is a retired RN. She served in the Korean War and retired shortly after the Viet Nam War. One of the reasons she got out of nursing was the disrespect of the younger nurses and doctors. Some days she would come home crying! In the military she had all the respect her rank gave her. After the military she went to work in a private hospital and dreaded going to work each day. Finally, she got out of the profession and now does volunteer work at the VA hospital.
I remember seeing large bottles of Fiorinol with codiene in her medicine cabinet twenty years ago. She was probably using them to cope with life at the time. Today she is totally drug free and happy as a clam!

[Vicodin Gurrl to Dan]

Well, it sounds like you have all of the answers to my problem, eh?  I AM an intelligent woman, in fact, I am one of the top nurses in my specialty, which is quite an accomplishment, especially considering my age...I also graduated AT THE TOP of my class, receiving my Bachelor's degree WHILE working full time AND frequently attending numerous non-mandatory workshops to help to make me the best that I could be in my field.  But guess what?  No one cares...No one gives a flying **** what I have accomplished or how G-d dammned hard I worked.  Guess what I hear??   COMPLAINTS...from the bogus, overconfident, underexperienced TWENTY THREE year old interns and residents with whom I work (because, honestly, according to my superiors, I do THEIR job BETTER than THEY do!).  I sit and wonder WHY.  Why did I BUST my ass to be so thouroughly knowledgable about my field, only to make $60,000/year and have people ***** and COMPLAIN at me all night long?  Then I think about my patients.  I LITERALLY hear AT LEAST once per night that I have helped to make someone's experience in the hospital BETTER than they ever believed it could be. Ah, yes, now I remember the reason for all of my hard work.  So Dan, if I am impaired, so be it.  I am NOT using while at work.  I am NOT diverting drugs from my patients or my employer.  And if a wanting to feel euphoric (not to mention pain free) at the end of my day, please tell me the problem with that.  Have you ever heard the term "victomless crime"?  Think about it.  I have come to this forum for support, and I am truly thankful for those who have supported me.  I will probably get flamed for my next comment, but you, Dan, are not one of them.  Must be wonderful for you to be so upstanding and righteous ("do the right thing").  Im happy just being plain old flawed and addicted ME.  Peace all...

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

Who is Dan anyhow? I rarely post here but read alot of them. He thinks anyone who touches narcs for chronic pain is an addict.
PERIOD! Nothing in between. So if I have a dental abcess (abscess) and take pain meds I am an addict. I have surgery and post-op I take pain meds......I am an addict? According to Dans Law I am!
Oh well......had to vent.
Amen to you Vic girl. Best rebuttle I have seen yet!!!

Sandy

[Frankinscense]

I made these comments only after talking to doctors who were top doctors that got addicted to opiates much like youself recreationally. One is a personal friend who after several years of dening he had a problem hit rock bottom. THis doctor I am speaking of is now without a license. But he is a director of a methadone clinic and overs inspiration for many opiate addicts like yourself.(and myself) He often speaks of the dangers of medical professionals deluding themselves with the fact that they think they have a handle on their addiction but eventually just a matter of time lose their grip and get treatment. It is unfornunate that soom of these doctors DIE first. He was lucky he says that he got out with only losing his license. He goes on to say he wishes with hindsight that he would have listened to his colleagues and got help early in his addiction. This disease is always progressive and is a killer! I was just giving some caring and friendly advice from one who was where you are now dear.
Sincerely,Doc Dan CDC (Chem. Dep. Couns.)
ps: I am an intern now I must add. But I am working towards a speciality in helping the opiate addicted.

[Deja to Vicodin Girl]

Amen Sistah!

Thank you for saying what most in our profession want to yell out on a daily basis.  Sometimes I believe there is such a double standard! No one would think twice if a sheet metal worker needed pain meds to ease his suffering after a long day of damaging physical labor. Heaven forbid if a medical professional who should "know better" needs the same relief!  How many times have you spent your shift turning a 300lb plus post-op patient every 2 hours? Helping move them on a blanket so the bed can be changed? Helping them out of bed for the first time post abdominal surgery?  Been tossed across the room by an agitated geriatric patient?  We love our patients and take this all in stride but the stress on our bodies can be chronic and severe. Not to mention the mental abuse from those who will eventually leap over us in the salary range and go on to recieve acolades and the "glamour status" - who we are basically training!  

So what if after a 12 hour shift you need pain control?  Thank the powers that be that you are able to be afforded some relief!  Bless you Vicodin Gurll - if I ever need another surgery or hospitalization I pray I am in the care of someone like you.  Stay Strong!!  I, for one, am on YOUR side.

deja

[Frankinscense]

I must say I have nothing bad to say about anyone who takes pain medicine for a legitimate pain. But when one takes pain medicine to achieve euphoria - that is improper and dangerous way  to deal with problems associated with work. If you all are so smart do some research on "euphoric recall". I have been trained in substance abuse. I see the damage this way of thinking does on a daily basis. This type of behaviour may be controllable now to a degree. Check back in four or five years tell me how well you both are doing. People who use opiates recreationally never intend to become addicted to the substanse. But this a PROGRESSIVE DISEASE and no one ever intends to overdose,steal drugs from a patient or narcotic box. I have heard your cries several times by other medical professionals and none thought that they would end up losing their liscense,their job, or a patient die to negligence. If you continue to do this remember there are MANY NURSES who thought they could control there substance abuse and failed. I want you both to do a little
research on opiate abuse and find out what this drug has in store for you if you take it on a daily basis to help coping with your problems. You probably will not do it because you may find out something that you do not like and might have to give up your precious drugs. You both are no different than the professional who goes home after a hard days and injects themselves with heroin. All these drugs are small doses of heroin(or morphine) in a pill. Same drug-same withdrawals. Same drug using mentality. You all do not know it yet,but one day you both may thank me for making you aware of these behaviours. Vicodin(warnings:may be habit forming) The bottle should say,Vicodin(warnings:IS HABIT FORMING)!!!!
Doc Dan (CDC)...
ps:again I have nothing to say about people who take medicine for legitimate pain!!

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

I have a little horror story about my sister. Honest........its about her, not me. That is why I may not be able to elaborate about addiction since I dont know first hand but I will tell the story as I saw it.
She was a nurse at one time. A damn good one too. She suffered from this and that from time to time. A pulled muscle here, a migraine there, working long hard hours busting her butt just like the rest of you nurses do. Anyhow, I am not sure how or why it started but she slowly started to help herself to the narcotics when she thought she could get away with it. This went on for over a year. She must really have known the hows and whens to steal narcotics from the hospital. The bad part is, for all involved, is that I nor my Mom had a clue she was using ANYTHING!!  Until I started wondering why she slept all the time.......even though she worked midnights.....there was no reason to sleep like she slept.  We felt sorry for her because she would "try" to take vacations and after just a day or two of being off for what was supposed to be a 2 week vacation, she would get called back to work. It wasnt until later that I realized she wasnt sleeping at all......She was STONED.  It wasnt until later that I realized she never got called back to work, she OFFERED to take the vaction pay instead of the time off.
SHE WAS GOING THROUGH WITHDRAWLS.  
One night during work she was finally busted. They had it all planned out on how to catch her.  She was taken into a private room and there stood policemen along with reps from the DEA.  Of course at the time she denied everything but there was so much proof that she had been taking everything and anything she could get her hands on that they arrested her on the spot.  My mom just so happened to be director of Human resources at the hospital and that made things really tough for her and her job.
My sister was given another chance and went into rehab for 30 days. That is how long it took her to even come to terms with her addiction.  Meanwhile, the scene at home was horrific.  We tore her bedroom apart, finding tons of empty vials of demerol among other narcotics and bloody syringes under her mattress. We found huge holes in her mattress under the sheets where she had fallen asleep stoned,with a lit cigarette in her hand. We had a locksmith come and open her trunk of her car. There we found 2 trash bags and I dont mean small kitchen garbage bags.....I mean LAWN AND LEAF bags filled with vials of stuff I cannot pronounce.
My sister did everything she could get her hands on. By the time she was caught she was ingecting herself IM with 600 mg of demerol and I am not kidding. The doctors said she should have been DEAD long ago from an overdose. God was with her the whole time.
There is no other explanation why she is still alive today.  She was ok for a while. For about 3 years she was clean. She worked her NA/AA programs and even became a sponser . She really was doing well. She did not lose her license and she went back to work.  
2 years later, she couldnt help but help herself to 2 percocet from work.
That was all it took. They never took their eyes off of her.
To try and make a long story shorter, she pleaded guilty but they gave her a suspended sentence with one year probabtion. She is no longer a nurse by the way. That was by her choice. She still does not trust herself around narcotics. I dont trust her. Her doctors dont trust her. Its a shame.  
I dont know why I wrote this because I have no right to tell anyone on here what to do with their lives but I just wanted to share this story.
We come from a middle-class family. We are just your normal everyday average family and you just never ever know what goes on behind closed doors.
Maybe that is why I am not quick to judge. Just to help.
Hope your still awake here!!  Hey......anyone know who won for Prez yet? LOL

[to Vicodin Gurll]

Dan, you may as well save your breath.  You are trying to help people who such as Vicodin Gurll who don't want help.  Just look at her name "Vicodin Gurll".  She revels in her drug abuse, which is so pathetic, ESPECIALLY coming from a health care professional.  Some logic she has, basically "I'm so stressed and underappreciated at work, so I'm entitled to a little painkiller to make me feel better."  As you know Dan, this is TYPICAL addict mentality.  She and several others on this forum are in total denial about their addiction.  Despite your best efforts to help such people, they use any rationalization they can to continue their drug abuse.  Again, typical addicts.  They misread your posts to say you are against narcotics for legitimate chronic pain, which of course you have clearly stated you are not.  As soon as you try to offer helpful advice to one of them, the other addicts attack you in a pack because your advice threatens their own sense of wellbeing (because they know deep down THEY are just as bad as the one you are trying to help).  To Ms. wonderful nurse Vicodin Gurll:  your life is going to be a pathetic wreck until you change your attitude and learn that happiness will not be found in a painkiller bottle.  Until you do learn that lesson, the path you are on will no doubt lead you to the depths of the addiction as it has done to countless others before you.  Furthermore, if you want to revel in your drug use, why not go to a forum designed for that, such as alt.drugs-hard.  There you will find companions to share drug stories with and fellow addicts who will offer support when you are going through your numerous withdrawals.  Kindly keep this forum to the people who WANT to combat their addictions.  Dan, keep up the good work.  You are about the only voice of sanity here and those of us who are actually trying to recover from this deadly disease are very happy for your support.  Don't let the shouts from the addicts in denial get you down.  Bryce

[Mike P. to Ken]

Hey, I hope you saw my post to you below...Just wanted to make sure...Take care. - Mike

[To "Doc Dan" from Confused]

Just a legit question for those of us who are new to the forum and looking for medical advice...are you a medical doctor? I see you sign your name as "Doc Dan, CDCI" or whatever--which confuses me. I would expect a "Doc Dan, MD." Perhaps the additional initials represent a board-certified specialty after a residency. Is that what you mean by "intern?" I think you give sound advice, however, I'm a little concerned about misrepresentation. Are you a master's degree level counselor, such as, "Doc Dan, MSW." Please, enlighten me. My ignorance could be due to geographical differences in the initials assigned to professional "doctors."

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

You basically said it and I applaud you.  It is addicts like that who get their hands on pain medicine, abuse it then make it virtually impossible for someone that really needs it to obtain it because Doctors are pretty skeptical to believe people because once again......people that abuse it.....like the hydrocodone queen.

[cin91860]

I am the nurse my sister wrote about    everything she wrote is true.  the first time i was not arrested   the 2nd time i was arrested, taken away in front of my small daughter and bound over to the grand jury.  I was given treatment in lieu of conviction.  Thank God.  I also am a chronic pain sufferer.  i don't know where to turn for help   no one trusts me,  understandably so.  I live with back pain hip pain and leg spasms. I am not drug seeking  I have been clean since 1995.  I need help for the pain and people to start trusting me again.  I am not working as a nuse anymore.  I had to get out for my own safety.  we need to come to terms with our addiction but at the same time we don't have to play the martyr.  we are in pain and we need to be helped   real pain untreated can be just as dangerous as our addiction.

cin

[Frankinscense]

Thank you Bryce for your vote of confidence. I need it to keep going. I know the facts and will continue to pass it on to people who will listen.
Thank You,
Dan (licensed chem. dependency  counselor intern >> LCDCI)
Doc Dan is a nickname given to me because of my knowledge of prescription and non prescrition drugs.
>>>>>Cin 91860:
Perhaps you might consider methadone maintenance therapy,MMT.
It offers a legitimate way to obtain pain relief for chronic pain sufferers and gives you peace of mind to tackle problems associated with opiate addiction. It gave me enough peace of mind to continue my education. Read my posts to Tom.(11/08/00)
Best of Luck,
Doc Dan CDCI

[tom to cin91860]

try this:
http://members.tripod.com/~Catnip100/intro.html
it is The CHRONIC PAIN and ILLNESS LIFE-LINE ®

hope you find some help there.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

I was just curious what your background was?  You know what you look for in this site?  Do you yourself have problems with drug abuse? Or do you have the perfect life which allows you to come here and vent at people that dont come from the voice of reason like yourself.  Is this site a type of Blood Sport for you?  I used to really enjoy this site.  But people like yourself who think your GODS GIFT TO DRUG ABUSE.  I am out of here.  This site has really gone to hell.  The way you judge everybody.  Just why ARE you here?

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

Take it easy really. You dont even know this person Bryce and he doesnt know you either so I wouldnt let anyone that you dont know anything about make you leave a site that may have helped you deal with certain issues. As a matter of fact he hasnt even been back with any posts so more then likely he said his piece and boogied.

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

Take it easy really. You dont even know this person Bryce and he doesnt know you either so I wouldnt let anyone that you dont know anything about make you leave a site that may have helped you deal with certain issues. As a matter of fact he hasnt even been back with any posts so more then likely he said his piece and boogied.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

In fairness to Vicodin Girl she did not write the message.  I did.  As you can see I have not left so fast.  I just wrote that a few minutes ago.  
Sincerely,
Kim

[tom to contentious bunch]

I see nothing wrong with the diversity of opinion exhibited on this site. It is emblematic of the drug issue itself. On one level you have physiological phenomena which can be characterized and measured in objective scientific terms. On another level you have the very real and ultimately subjective experience of pain and the despair pain engenders. Both perspectives are legitimate and relevant. Both are necessary to capture this common and at the same time lonely experience.

No one turns to opiates because they are evil or morally defective. We seek relief for pain wherever it can be found because we are human. For the most part, we interpret the experience of needing and using opiates in uniquely personal ways.

If I reject any viewpoint on this site, it is the one that sees us as immoral, weak of character, lazy and decadent simply because we use opiates. To the posters that presume to sit in judgment over the rest of us I reserve contempt tempered with the pity afforded the congenitally stupid.

Doc Dan has a right to respond in the way he does. Who on this site is as committed to, and informed about, opiate addiction and treatment as Dan? Dan is a recovering opiate addict who has dedicated his life to the helping profession of chemical dependency counseling. He deserves to be heard and he has a lot to teach us.

That doesn't invalidate Vicodin Gurl in any way. I hear the passion in her posts about sacrificing for her patients. I sense the daily struggle she goes through with her own all too real pain issues. I for one have lived through a years-long period of migraine-like headaches. It was a demoralizing, frustrating, humiliating and often stigmatizing experience. I thank god in heaven I don't have those headaches anymore.

I see nothing wrong with Vicodin Gurl seeking a few precious moments of relief at the end of a long day. Care-giving taxes the body and soul, and she deserves to find renewal anywhere she can. At the same time, the truth of Doc Dan's observations is undeniable.

Both are right. And Vicodin Gurl, like each and every one of us, will have to accept the consequences of her choices, whatever they may be, for good or for ill. I respect both people equally.

I have to thank Dan from the bottom of my heart for giving a 30-year opiate addict some real hope. I had resigned myself to using narcotics until I died. Now, I am committed to reporting to a local methadone clinic this coming week and will post to everyone on this site about my experience.

His approach is much like many drug dependency professionals: the tough, black-and-white truth is often what it takes to get through to many of us. But give him this: he isn't moralizing and condemning us and then just walking away. His posts contain a practical medical treatment. He offers us a way out of hell if we want it.

We all have our own style, and sometimes Dan is a bit too programmatic and blunt for my taste, but I'm sure he's not wild about everything I say, either. At least he cares enough to return to this site, day after day, and offer us a practical solution.

I hope both Dan and Vicodin Gurl continue to post and offer their compelling points of view. Conflict is good. It provokes thought and often yields insights that would otherwise go unsaid.

Dan and Vicodin Gurl (and J.B. et al) are good souls in my book.

[to Vicodin Gurll]

See ya.  You won't be missed.

[Vicodin Gurrl to Dan]

Gee guys, I sure do feel saved!  Thank you SO much for your support and enlightening words.  I am surely thrilled that neither of you are caring for me or anyone I care about, given your obvious general lack of compassion and empathy.  Especially you "Doc", you are not someone whom I can see (from my thankfully limited contact with you in this forum) as an effective member of the helping profession.  
As for your previous statement regarding the fact that you support opiate use for those truly in pain and in need of the medications, you CLEARLY don't understand the pathology of migraine disorders.  Perhaps you should research this subject before you chastise me for using medications in the dosage PRESCRIBED to me by my CLEARLY superior medical doctor.  She has VAST knowledge of migraine disorders, and in fact, has ENCOURAGED me to INCREASE my daily intake of opiates to remain pain free for a greater percentage of my time.  I, however, REFUSE Oxycontin and other long acting opiates because I DO NOT want to be "impaired" while at work.  SO I SUFFER, in REAL PAIN during my shifts, for the GOOD OF MY PATIENTS.  If I take my pain meds at night, AFTER WORK and this relieves my pain AS WELL AS giving me a euphoric rush, tell me PLEASE what the harm is in this?  And to Bryce, if you have a problem with the NAME I use in this forum, you should consider yourself a lucky man that your life is simple enough to find yourself worked up over something so trivial.  I wish my life was that problem free!  I use the name Vicodin Gurrl not to REVEL in my "addiction", but simply as a clever "handle" for a drug-related topic forum.  Perhaps you should chastise "DOC DAN" for the same thing...why can he not present himself simply as DAN?  Oh such trivialities we fret over.  Anyhow, I won't frequent this board any longer...I'll leave room for those who are interested in DOC DAN's persuasive and not at ALL ethnocentric advice.  Ta Ta.
p.s.  Oh, and Bryce, I ("hydrocodone queen") DO NOT abuse my medications OR my prescription accessability, as you so CLEARLY think, I am just HONEST enough to state that I enjoy 'em.  I can only hope you NEVER are cursed with migraines and the kind of pain I experience.

[Frankinscense]

Girl please stay! I will not comment on your addiction any more!
I was just trying to offer words of wisdom. As far as chronic pain goes, I was a sufferer for several years! The mind can play deadly tricks with you where opiates are concerned.They are a habit that reinforces drug seeking behaviour. Your mind where opiates are involved will operate on a reward system and euphoric  recall and will accentuate the pains of say migraines,herniated disc's,neurological pains,etc. The mind WILL accentuate the pain to get the opiates back at the receptors. When the brain has been depleted or reduced of its natural endorphins PAIN becomes accentuated. Mild withdrawal occurs and all pains mental and physical are very much accentuated !
I observed these conditions in myself. Once I got my addiction and pain under control my pains disapeared. Disapeared to the point of not being a CHRONIC and unbearable nuisance. When my cravings and withdrawals stopped my pain STOPPED. I know you will say that being on methadone deadens my pain - not so I still have pain issues but not nearly as often. My chronic pain went from beind a chronic problem to having pains with no more frequency than the average person. Once my addiction was in check I noticed
that I could tolerate the pains and they were not so severe. I know take ibuprofen for a pain that used to be chronic. Ibuprofen
know works for a pain that I thought only high doses of narcotics would relieve. For pain I suffered with such as sciatica,pain from my herniated disc,abcessed tooth and these types of pain are now managed with ONE lortab 7.5 mg and TWO otc ibuprofen tabs. Most pain is due to an inflamatiom whether its from migraines or trauma. Swelling or inflamation (inflammation) is better managed with an antiinflamatory drug. If the NSAID doesn't handle it then add a opiate type drug. I have found that one Vicoprofen (7.5 hydrocodone+ 300 mg ibuprofen) is superior to 2-3 percocet 5's in managing my severe pains. Continued opiate use for pain DOES lower your pain threshold to a huge degree. If you did n't notice Vicodin Girl I have had training and research in the PATHOLOGY of PAIN and pain management. Pain and addiction are two related disciplines for a reason. In general, much pain is caused my the indiscriminate use of opiates or narcotics. Lastly I see absolutely nothing wrong in using narcotics for legitimate pains,just do it in a responsible and mature manner. Be conservative as possible in narcotic use.
Sincerely,
Doc...
PS: my views are based on an entire profession known as >>>Substance abuse and Addiction Professionals and are in no way eccentric or odd V/gurl...

[to doc dan from joe]

Dan,

I had a feeling that opiates may lower one's pain threshold, see my post on the thread above (11/8) let me know what you think,

Joe

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Maybe you should take a hike too! I will miss her and hope that she does ok.
As for Doc Dan, I don't know.  He's got a mind set on MMT and LAAM treatment and it's getting a little old.  Too, bad that his attitude and comments are running people off this forum. But you have to respect his opinions whether you accept them or not.  We all have our opinions, don't we?

I simply love the opiates for their painkilling ability.  I've tried other meds but they don't compare by far.  If that make me an addict then so be it.  And remember, anything can be abused from chocolate to morphine.  I just don't appreciate people reminding me at every step that drugs are harmful and addictive and that I am an addict if I need drugs to improve the quality of my life.  I'd rather be medicated and functioning than staying home in a bed of pain.

[Frankinscense]

JB do you know how MMT and LAAM treatments help people? Do you know any facts on how peoples life improves while on these treatments? Do you know how many people lose their lives due to this terrible disease? If this disease goes unchecked it will eventually kill you or you will wind up in jail due to the danger of scoring drugs on the street. This behaviour of running from doctor to doctor is an mental illness listed in the DSM IV manual for mental illness. If my posts do not agree with your lifestyle do not read them. If I can assist one person to find a better life through these treatments do not deny them by saying my posts are getting old. Do not knock what I am saying and I what knock your lifestyle. I wouldn't comment one way or the other if I had not lived a similar lifestyle to what people are describing here. I hear these people suffering and I offer some kind of alternative to this painful existance. I am sorry V/gurl
took my advice in such a negative manner. I will try in the future to be a little more discerning with my advice giving.
Sincerely,
Dan.(CI)

[bill]

From Bill to Tom, Vicodin Gurrll and Doc Dan

Tom:  You are absolutely correct in saying there are different viewpoints on things.  Sometimes in polar opposites there is a middle ground people can relate to.

As a 20 plus year opiate user, I have found help on this forum, as well as other individuals I disagree with.  Vicodin Gurrlll, I understand your need for relief completely, I have similar needs/problems.  Dan, you may mean well but get off the methadone kick.  It does not help everyone; rather, I have observed (and written about in an acclaimed article in great detail) people deteriorate and become placid from methadone.  It is no cure all.  It is very difficult to kick.  In NYC people use it as a launching pad to boost everything from psychotropics to street drugs.  Many of the individuals in the black market feeding chain are methadone patients who "make doctors" through Medicaid and then sell their prescriptions (called a "package") to a dealer, who in turn sells it on the street.  And if you try to get off the clinic in NYC, you will be ignored and treated like a bad grade school kid.  It just makes people more institutionalized individuals, I have known very, very few people who have been helped by it.

Kaylin, thanks again about the tylenol warning - I've been keeping it in mind and have moderated stuff considerably.  

Believe it or not, Dan, there are people who go for weeks without taking anything who don't fit your cookie cutter vision of "addict".

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

Wow......maybe we should talk about the latest updates concerning the election:)
I have no further comment at this time.

[to Vicodin Gurll]

I don't always agree with what doc dan says, but he's one guy who comes here regularly, with both an addiction background himself AND is in the addiction treatment field.  In my book that's worth a hell of a lot more than what he's getting credit for here.  Look, prior to him coming here there were just a bunch of postings from people complaining about not getting enough good pills and going through withdrawal.  Doc has at least been talking about treatment.  He also knows it is very bad to glorify this damn disease.  If he offended that vicodin chick, too f-in bad. Chronic pain is one thing, but anyone who thinks painkillers are a nice little treat for a hard day at work is just whistlin in the dark while a freight train is rushing down the track toward them.  Too many posts here about better ways to use, not enough about getting off the damn stuff.  And chronic pain people should be getting treated by pain clinics.  Narcotics forever is not the appropriate treatment for MOST pain patients.  Do the research before you try to challenge that one.  People are here because deep down they know they're not true chronic pain patients, but they are addicts.  Otherwise you would be at a chronic pain website.  Also, it's easy to tell you're addicts.  If something walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...must be a duck.  So, leave doc dan alone.  He knows he's an addict and he's doing something about it.  More than I can say for most of you.  Janice

[tom to thread]

for addicts like me who have tried again and again and again to abstain from narcotics and repeatedly failed, sometimes with catastrophic results, Dan's solution is salvation itself. What can I say? I just can't make it without opiates. No matter how well I detox, or how stringently I work a program, life without opiates is, for me, agony itself. I'm sure it's the result of so many years of drug use. Whatever the cause, my reality without opiates is a living hell. I am going to get on methadone and will thank god every day for it. Many, if not most, posters on this site are not in the same boat as I am. Abstinence programs or better pain management are real solutions for them. But for me, my friends, Dan's posts offer what may be my only hope.

What I want to know is, why is everyone so threatened by Dan's or anyone's point of view? What would be the point of this site if everyone believed in the same thing? Pretty short conversation, I wager. Relax, everyone, there is nothing to fear here. Say what you believe. I will hear you.

[Bill to Kaylin and Greg]

From Bill to Janice

Doc Dan is not a messiah or know it all.  He sees things from his perspective - and I from mine.  What's he doing about it?  Telling people to go on Methadone?  Put Doc Dan on 37th Street and 8th Avenue or 125th Street by the Metro North Railroad and he can see the success of the Methadone program, all right.  The reason why upset people in NYC have to go through a triple script to get a simple tranquilizer like Valium is because these Methadone patients have overabused bribable foreign Medicaid doctors and inundated the city with them in the mid-1980s.  Maybe certain people in private clinics are helped by detox on Methadone, but the idea in NY is to keep you on it so the clinic gets state aid.  I've written against it, I've never been on a clinic, and I may have the ups and downs of an opiate user, but at least my mind is being controlled by some clinic.  Janice, stop thinking this guy is the messiah and most knowledgeable of the board posters.  Everyone's story has validity.  Vicodin Gurl, Kaylin, Tom, and to all others, I hope you're OK

[tom to Bill]

just because a group of hardcore addicts in NYC chose to use methadone as just another source of narcotics, don't try to tell me that I'm better off going through what I am now. You presume to condemn the whole methadone concept simply because a bunch of low-lifes exploited it the way they exploit everything and everyone in order to use and use. You say you "wrote about it." What was it? An "acclaimed" article? Where was it published? Who acclaimed it? Who are you? My guess is, you had a political ax to grind when you wrote this mystery document, and the people who acclaimed it simply used it to justify a position they had already taken. If I'm wrong, then prove it. Don't just do a driveby on the only solution I can see for my predicament and then bug out.

[Vicodin Gurrl to Dan]

I have been reading the posts at this website religiously for the past few months, yet until this time have not felt comfortable posting anything myself. I have found this site to be a source of comfort, information, advice, and interesting points of view.  REcently, I have noticed that I find myself getting tense and anxious just READING the posts and decided I simply had to say something.  I, too, am a chronic pain patient, and through the course of my illness have become addicted/dependant upon opiates.  I do not take them for "fun", but I do notice a feeling of euphoria that occurs nonetheless.  In talking with my pain clinic doctor, I inquired about the MMT treatment that Dan is such a proponent of.  My doctor gave me numerous medical journal articles to read about this therapy and also directed me to many websites that I could read and obtain an objective point of view on my own.  From what I have read, methadone is MUCH more difficult to detox from than ANY other opiate.  Not to mention that once a person becomes dependant on this drug, he or she is then basically at the mercy of the clinic doling out the daily dose.  I have also spoken (online) to ex -heroin junkies who have tried MMT and subsequently detoxed from it.  Most have told me that their prior heroin detoxes were a walk in the park compared to methadone detox.  It seems to me that MMT is simply trading one addiction for another.  Why isnt Dan giving any of this information to those on this site as well?  Dan, it is my opinion that you are just as much an addict as any of the others whom you have all but forced out of this site!  Tom, it seems that this therapy WOULD be quite effectie for you, as your goal is to REMAIN on an opiate regiment yet sustain a happier, healthier life.  I applaud you, as you seem to be an honest individual looking for a good solution to a difficult situation.  Dan, however, DOES appear to believe he is the messiah of non-drug addiction.  It seems that HE is so caught up in his OWN addiction and telling everyone else what THEY should do that he cannot even see what a raging hypocrite he is!  Since I have a terminal illness and really have no reason to get off of opiates (until I am taken permanently off of them by the big guy in heaven), MMT is not something I care to try.  I agree that it is great that everyone here is free to share their individual points of view, but I will say that I hope you all can try to remember that NO ONE is perfect, we are all children of God, and we are all doing the very best we can....let's please cut each other some slack, okay?  Take care everyone.
Trina

[Dreaming87]

Hi Guys,
I have been reading the posts and did everyone have a really shitty week or what?
I can relate to you VGurl;and Doc Dan because both of you have valid things to say.   I tell myself that I deserve a few because I work my ass off and have to come home and clean, cook, etc, don't sit down till midnight and average 5-6 hours sleep per night.  But I also know that even one a day will make you want two the next and the cycle continues on until you're crazy. If you NEED a drug everyday and are not in REAL pain that OTC drugs can't help, then you are addicted.  A user is anyone that takes narcotics, regardless of the method they use.  Remarks??

[tom to trina]

thank you for your thoughtful contribution. I admit the prospect of becoming dependant on the methadone clinic is unsettling. However, I'm already dependant on opiate producers in general, not having a crop of poppies growing in my backyard. However, the signs seem to indicate a growing trend in the use of opiate agonists to treat addiction. Perhaps the clinics won't be the only place to go. Or there will be alternatives to methadone. I already find it impossible to detox fully from anything. The thought of a hard detox doesn't scare me. They're all hard. I am encouraged by the apparent low-toxicity of methadone compared to other opiates. I am 47 and surely must be wearing out one or more internal organs with all I've been using. I can always go back to what I'm doing now, tweaking my doctor this way and that for every script, week after week.
I am sorry to hear you have a terminal illness. My 10-year old nephew died a few months ago from cancer, and morphine proved to be his salvation. Without it, his last years would have been horrible. I wish you all the best, Trina. Please post again.

[tom to C]

so what's you're point?

[Dreaming87]

My point is:
There are 3 types of users; those who need drugs because of physical problems; those who use drugs because they like the high; and a combination of those who have honest pain but also like the effect of pain killer. I just think that the mood on this forum is getting very nasty, everyone has problems and different solutions, the idea here is to listen, respond and try to help.  

[tom to C]

that's a good point. I agree wholeheartedly. Yet even the sharp tones are interesting. What could be more subjective and morally ambiguous than pain, pleasure and obsession? I feel all three when it comes to narcotics. I need them. I love them. I cannot imagine life without them. I don't recommend anyone follow me. I doubt if this drama of mine will end on a happy note. In some ways, I feel damned and alone on a very cold and dark road.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Hi Tom,
   I hope that you dont feel that way when you come to this site.  I know that an attitude adjustment is in order for some of us. But if everyone here remembers we are here to HELP one another I think all will fall into place. I am a Chronic Painer  with Fibromyalgia AND just found out this week that I have Arthritis up and down my spine and through my lower back.  I am a 39 year old in a 99 year olds body. I am a poster child for pain!
   Anyway when you feel like **** you need to remember to come to this site and get some support so you are not feeling so damned and on that dark road.  It is a tough as hell road.  All being fine when we have not run out of our meds.  Then the breakthrough pain pops up then we run short.  What a hard dark lonely road until refill time.  
   Tom, Hang in there.  I have decided to stay even after my barking at BRYCE who I said was our resident Dr. Laura. "Vicodin Girl" is only human and is trying to make it through life like the rest of us.  She was HONEST, sweet even taking time to welcome new people to the site only to have herself ripped apart by Pitbulls.  
   People work so hard trying to make it through the day trying anything to feel better. If you dont have chronic pain or something similar there is just no way to relate. Just like the person who wants to lose weight so bad.  They WANT to lose the weight like WE want to feel good and be pain free.  Their cabinets are full of diet pills and various concoctions.  My HOUSE is full of Massage Mats, Yoga Mats, Back Massagers, Back pillows, neck pillows, Ice packs, Frozen Pea packs, quiet fountains, New Age CD's, Magnetic everything, Power Beads, lots of pairs of Birkenstock shoes, acupuncture, Zoloft, ANYTHING TO HELP MAKE ME PAIN FREE.  I go to Physical therapy 3 times a week.  I dont just camp out on the Oxycontin.  Which sets me back about $350. every month.  I get no high from it just quality of life.  Which I would like to have since I have two small angels 8 and 5.  I try about everything to manage my pain.  I forgot to mention the 25 or so trigger point injections I get every two weeks.
   I am so sorry to ramble.  I am trying to help you Tom and you have helped me by letting me KVETCH about my world.  There are more nice people than not.  I am going to try to stay at the site.  I know that some days the conversation gets too "Cheech and Chongy" haha.
   Tom please hang in there.  There are as you know some nice people here.  Vicodin Girl, I would like to know how you are doing.  Please check back, you are such a hard worker in such a stressful thankless job environment.  If I could V. Girl I would give you a hug not a guilt trip.  I hope you hang in there.  Please check back in. Tom you take care.

Sincerely,
Kimmie

[Frankinscense]

I have researched methadone for six years. I know almost everything there is to know about opiate agonist therapies. I have never run across a renown article that you speak of. I would like to read it. The clinic that you describe are state owned clinics. These clinics deal with the most hard core addicts. They provide services to the needy. You sound like another politician that wants to remove this service from people that are in need of this option. The mayor of NY is one politician who also has the wrong idea about MMT and the Harm Reduction it provides. These people who don't have an option will remain on the street and continue to spread aids, hepatitus (hepatitis), and STD's all killers. MMT is the only option that these indidviuals have and there are certain politicians in your state that want to remove this system. That will only increase crime and spread these horrible diseases.
                                                                
These clinics provide a valuable service to your state. I know very little of your state politics. But I do know that stopping
the services that these clinics provide would be a major disaster for your state. Common sense tells me this. This comes at a time when our countries drug czar is also recognizing the importance of MMT. He recommends opening more clinics.  More funding would allow these clinics to provide better counseling and provide eduction on drugs to these users who learn everything on the streets. The war on drugs is not working and our drug czar McCaferty (Sp?) understands this. Who better to understand that a
method of war is not working but a retired military general.
                                                                
  One solution to the war on drugs it seems, is not to take away these clinics but add better trained counselors to provide the necessary education to this population. Make these clinics available to ALL hard core addicts. Only a small amount of addicts get the services of MMT. Remove the need for heroin and it will disapear. Clinics check for aids,TB, and other infectious diseases that would otherwise go unchecked.
  I belong to a privately owned methadone clinic. They provide a necesary service for me and other addicts. They provide methadone or Laam both addictive substances. I may eventually get off of methadone. But until then, my needs are filled and I do not have to spend $$$ searching for doctors to provide me with short acting opiates. These drugs (vicodin,percodan,demerol,lortab,etc.) are very short acting opiates. They are very addicting. I do not know why you are a long time user of opiates. Attacking pain with these tylenol ridden products is very hard on the liver and kidneys. Short acting opiates are much more addicting than long acting opiates. They are more harmful to the brains receptors because of their quick onset of action and THE DRUG INDUCED MANIA that they cause. The euphoria that they produce is "drug induced mania." Which is very harmful to our brain chemistry and neurotransmiters. You have a quick up and a quick down which is not unlike bipolar disorders or manic depressions.
                                                                
Long acting opiates,such as methadone and Laam provide pain relief and curtail cravings without causing drug induced mania or unhealthy euphoria. They make you a little calm and "placid" as you put it but I would rather have that, than  manic. MMT allowed me to continue my education and did not effect my drive that the term placid implies. I am 47 years old and continuing my education is good feat for a person my age. Hey Tom your 47 also!
I see a lot of you in me, Tom. Also a good friend of mind got his doctorate while on MMT and is using his education to make MMT a better treatment.
  MMT is not without flaws. But more funds into education instead of jails and law enforcement would at least be a step in the right direction. Much of the problems with MMT is due directly to the fact that the people running the clinic know nothing about how to administer opiate agonist therapies.  We will never be able to stop third world countries from producing coca and opiates as long as there is a demand for it. Education is more necessary than jails and law enforcement. At least give an equal amount to educating the drug addicts as we do trying to blow these drug producing countries out of existance. You stop one country from producing a narcotic and another is ready to fill their shoes. This kind of mentality achieves nothing,history has all ready proven this. I want to end this comment by saying more funding into educating the addict would provide more of an answer than more jails and law enforcement.

[to Vicodin Gurll]

Boy do I know methadone.  I was a slave to the clinic for 8 years.  I tried to get off the stuff NUMEROUS times, but detoxing from it makes detoxing from heroin and pills seem like giving up chewing gum.  Take your WORST cold turkey detox, multiply it by 100, that's how bad it is.  So, if you're even thinking about going on it, you may as well resign yourself to staying on it forever.  For some people that may be all that keeps them out of jail or whatever, but for most of you, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!! PLEASE!  If I can save 1 of you from the pain and agony and humiliation of methadone maintenance, it's worth my time.  In my humble opinion, the ONLY people that should even consider it are either severe chronic pain patients where nothing works and where the condition is lifelong, or people that have relapsed over and over and over again and can not live even a halfway normal life because of this.  Otherwise, what you are getting with methadone is a chain to a clinic.  Don't just listen to me, there are tens of thousands of former methadone patients out there, all over the internet, saying the same stuff I am.  You live your whole life around the clinic and there are tons of lowlifes there.  Getting your dosage right you're at the mercy of the doc, who knows most people are trying just to get high.  So, they often give you just below the amount you need to really be comfortable.  Took me years to get a decent dosage.  Forget vacations without MAJOR hassle.  Believe me, this stuff is a LAST RESORT.  Thank GOD I finally got off it.  Life is so much better than it was being in that fog of methadone.  It isn't a fun fog either, like a nice oxy buzz.  No, it's more like a barbituate fog, sapping you of your life energy.  Now that I'm off, people say I'm like a new person--energetic, funny, etc.  I used to be a methadone zombie.  And "Doc Dan", I appreciate your opinion but you really should not be touting methadone as a savior for all these people.  As you know, most of them need conventional detoxes with something like buprenorphine, and then meetings to stay off opiates.  You are doing most of them a disservice by suggesting methadone is good for them.  Maybe for a rare few (PERHAPS tom), but not most.  Also, I know you've posted what your credentials are, but I respectfully suggest you use "doc" dan in quotes so people who just came here won't think you're a MD.  Good luck to all you folks, I know how hard this thing is.

[Frankinscense]

Methadone is not for everyone. All this talk about buprenorphine is nice but it is NOT available for addiction yet! No I am not touting MMT as a saviour for all users only those who have tried and tried but failed after several attempts to get off opiates.  I belong to a private clinic and I found that I could get any dose slowly that I wanted. I have been as High as 120mg and then lowered my dose without very much problems to 60mgm that is my adequate dose. It provides for me freedom of cravings and withdrawals and a normal feeling of well being. I have normal anxieties,I have to face lifes normal problems, and sometimes I take a tranquiliser for sleep like the majority of people. The only high I get is the slight buzz one hour after my dose. That leaves after a while to a normalised feeling of well being, of being not a slave to short acting opiates with their manic highs and there depressed lows. I have my good days and my bad days like everyone else.
  I will be happy to go to my clinic once a week to get my six take outs and never have to go doctor to doctor again.  I will be glad to never have to buy drugs from a dealer.  As far as a degrading feeling that go to a clinic with low lifes,I don't think so. Most of these people are just people like you and I.
I have been only been approached by a shady type once after six years of clinic attendance. He was trying to sell drugs.
  I have never been denied an increase or a gradual lowering of my dose. I think,most problems most people encounter are from state owned or run clinics.  Any problem that I have encounterd with MMT was solved through research. All opiates are hard to detox because of what opiates do to the naturally occurring endorphins in the body. A very slow detox from methadone can be achieved with liquid methadone. Increments of 1-2 mg every two weeks will produce  tolerable results. Research will help people learn about MMT not PROS and CONS.
Sincerely,
Dan

[tom to Dan]

Well, Dan ole buddy, there's going to be a slight delay in signing up at the methadone clinic (at least at the one I talked to). It seems the doctor there requires me to bring a signed statement from my doctor attesting to my opiate addiction. In other words, cut myself off from all pain relief and habit relief before I even walk into the clinic. Suppose for some reason the clinic doesn't accept me. Suppose I cannot accept the clinic's terms for whatever reason. Suppose, after getting on methadone, I find that it isn't working for me and want to return to my former situation. I would be back in the desperate, doctor-shopping hell I was in up until about 5 years ago, when I found the wonderful guy who is now my family physician. For the last 5 years, I have been able to get what I needed from one doctor, legally and with a minimum of manipulation. Because of this doctor, I have been able to live without the constant fear of withdrawal or the desperate search for sources of narcotics. I have been able to live quite normally and concentrate on my family and my career. In a way, I am on a sort of maintenance regime now - I just don't have the right medication (methadone). I rarely take enough pills to get truly high anymore.  Don't know why - perhaps I've changed or there are just more positive things in my life and I don't need the escape as much as I did. It's not a substitute for the clinic, I know this. But it has allowed me to achieve relative equilibrium and focus on the normal pursuits of life.
I cannot destroy my support system before I know that MMT will work for me. Therefore, this is what I'm going to have to do:
I'm going to start seeing another doctor (unbeknownst to my family doc, of course), probably a pain management specialist, just long enough to be considered an established patient. I will get the requisite rx's for pain from him, say, for two months. I will then confess to that doctor that I am an addict and ask for a note for the Methadone clinic. That way, if MMT doesn't work for me or I don't work for them for whatever reason, I can fall back to my current doc and simply be back where I started.
There is a second clinic I can call on Monday (there are only two in my county). Perhaps the doc there will only require a drug screen to admit me. If they also require a note from my doctor, I will have to stick to the plan outlined above.
Dan, I know you'll say I should commit myself totally and just do it. But my life before meeting the wonderful doctor I have now was pure hell. I lived in a constant state of desperation and obsession and my days were dominated by drug seeking, instead of career or family. I cannot risk this happening. Damn, I was set to go in on Monday, too.  ****. I don't want to wait, either, but the risk is too great. After I'm established at the clinic and I know methadone works for me, I intend to tell my family doctor the whole story. But first things first. I still believe in your solution and am just as determined to follow through on it. Hope you understand. As I said, the second clinic here in my area might not require a doctor's note. (Is this a common requirement? Suppose I tell them I don't have a doctor and I'm buying the pills on the black market? I've already told the first clinic that I'm getting the drugs from a doctor, so I can't change my story with them.)
I will know this on Monday. If the second clinic works out, I will go ahead and report to it this coming week. Otherwise, I have to stick to my plan. Take care. tom

[tom to Klmmie]

Thanks for your kind attention. I understand that Fibromyalgia is a terrible condition to live with. You, as much as anyone, deserves all the pain pills you need. After all, none of us knows how much time we have on this planet. It makes no sense to waste precious years of life in debilitating pain simply because the best source of pain relief is potentially addictive. I think as long as you aren't psychologically addicted to opiates, the physical addiction should be considered a normal side effect of long-term therapy which can be dealt with at the right time with proven medical techniques. If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate to medicate myself against that terrible pain. Medically managed detox and withdrawal is, in my opinion, a small price to pay for an acceptable quality of life. No one should suffer needlessly.
Yes, I certainly will hang in there and stick around this site. With insightful, caring people like you on this forum, I always get and hopefully give some measure of comfort and understanding. Sometimes, the best way to help yourself is to help another. In fact, if memory serves me, AA was born on a night where AA's founder, Bill W., traveling on business, sensed that he was about to relapse. He had an inspiration: He sought out another alcoholic in town, known today as Doctor Bob, and spent the evening talking with him about their mutual addiction and, in effect, helped Doctor Bob avoid his own relapse. In helping him stay sober for one night, he helped himself.
When I was committed to house arrest in a 90-day rehab residential home, I found that helping other recovering addicts understand and cope with their addiction helped me resist my own craving for drugs. I suspect Dan works as a Chemical Dependency professional partly to help himself.
While I have not been able to follow AA's regimen of total abstinence and am looking into methadone maintenance, I revere Bill W. as someone who someday will be spoken of in the same breath as people like Martin Luther King and Ghandi. His concept for treating addiction is a revelation. That night with Bill W. and Doctor Bob was an event that changed and continues to change people's lives for the better. AA has saved almost as many lives as penicillin (a slight exaggeration, I admit) and improved the quality of life for addicts and the families and communities impacted by addiction. His picture occupies a place of honor on my office wall next to King, Ghandi and Thomas Jefferson. I don't believe I'm alone in my admiration for this man.
Please post anytime you need to talk.  It lets the rest of us know you're out there and gives us a chance to care for you. I will look for your posts in the future. Take care.

[to Vicodin Gurll]

First off, if you read my post again, I said most of the addicts here would be best served with buprenorphine for DETOX.  And yes, it is available in the U.S. both for detox AND pain managment, under the trade name Buprenex.  Secondly, you quite obviously have never detoxed from Methadone.  Otherwise you would not say it is "tolerable."  Tell that to the tens of thousands who have been unable to detox from methadone.  It is BY FAR, the worst drug to detox from.  So, Tom, if you are going to go on it, consider it a lifetime of using it.  Finally, research is essential to people before they get on methadone, since it is so hard to get off of.  The reason I posted is because people were getting only a one-sided view of methadone, from you.  I'm happy it works well for you.  To me and many others it was a horrible experience.  Best to you all.

[Frankinscense]

Tom I do not know what to tell you. Why would methadone not work for you? It is one of the stongest pure agonist opiates available. I think(correct me if I am wrong) that you are not wanting to truly commit. You are still not convinced-of what I have told you. I am tired of these people who know nothing of the pathology of opiate addiction coming here telling me about the inaccuracy of the information I am providing.
  I know that opiate addiction is a disease that is kept going by a very srong reinforcing stimilus. People feel threatened by  information and do only what they know. They tell me my information is inaccurate. I will not sit here and discuss my credentials and my education. But I have done research well beyond what my education has requested. I have talked to many doctors and so called experts, and it is my opinion that very little know about the pathology of opiate addiction. I have spent hours researching the causes of opiate addiction. I have told you the names of the doctors who know the most about opiate addiction and and opiate agonist therapies. Buprenorphine is only available for addiction to a few selected treatment facitilies and not the general public. I want to help a few who will listen. There seems to be a trend with some of the posters to discredit me. I KNOW MY FACTS!!
  I wonder at times how much information that clinics and doctors are providing in regards to MMT is accurate. I know that there are very few who know facts about methadone and why and how it works. There is a chemical imbalance that is in some people in their genetic makeup. Abuse of opiates cause this imbalance and this in turn is why addicts abuse these substances. Responsible use of opiate agonist treatments will allow the brain to slowly correct this imbalance. Abuse of  opiates keeps the disease active. MMT and LAAM keep the disease in check.  Again these therapies allow the brain to reorganise these valuable and very important neurotransmitters. There are many N/T's that are effected by opiate abuse and continued daily use. I have been saying endorphins in hope people will grasp what I am saying.  There are many N/T,s envolved not just the endorphins and enkephalins. It seems the more I try to explain to people at this site the reason for their addiction the more I get flammed. My intentions are only to help people understand this horrible disease and not to get anyone dependent on MMT. Until there is a better solution, this has proven itself, the only solution to this problem. This is supposed to be a site for support and solutions to this disease. When I first posted here I saw people encoraging drug abuse. That is what moved to post a message here.
  MMT like all opiates are hard to detox. But like this previous poster claims MMT is the hardest. This statement is wrong. All opiates of the agonist type are hard to detox. None that are used for maintenance purpose,whether its morphine or methadone are easy to detox because of the pathology of opiate addiction.    Morphine was used in the twenties by a doctor in Louisana and was somewhat effective. But none have been as effective as methadone in controlling the ups and downs of this addiction. Methadone curtails the cravings of this disease while letting you lead a normal life. It seems that when a short acting opiate is used such as morphine, all the users would do is sit around and wait for their next dose.  MMT/Laam allow you  to forget your cravings and carry on with your life. What I just described is documented facts about methadone and morphine maintenance. There are detoxes that I have experieced with MMT that are somewhat physically painless. I have written too much here or I would describe them. Another time if you request I will describe them. I will only spend time explaining these help procedures, only if requested. By you or anyone else. I have better things to do than get flammed by people who no nothing  of what they speak. It the guy who posted about MMT had a hard time detoxing: Two reasons, he did it to quickly or he did not have the proper treatment for his detox!!
Sincerely,
"Doc" Dan CDCI
    PS: MMT IS for people who tried and failed after several attempts to remain drug free and not for the casual opiate/narcotic abuser.

[Frankinscense]

I am not clear about the facts Buprenorphin. It apears to be becoming more mainstreamed. I know it is available for pain. But not sure if a family doc can prescribe it for opiate addiction.
Dan...

[to Vicodin Gurll]

Buprenorphine has been available for quite a while for pain relief, under the trade name Buprenex.  It is currently not available in pill form in the US, but is instead injected under the skin (not intravenously).  It is simple to adminster to yourself, since all you do is put the needle under the skin (not in the muscle) in an area such as the front of your thigh.  Where Buprenorphine is becoming popular is for detox.  It is GREAT for detox, being a mixed agonist/antagonist.  What this means is it removes opiates from the receptors, while replacing them with itself.  The detox is virtually painless and symptom free in most people.  It can be done outpatient, through any reputable detox clinic; privately, through docs who have gotten DEA approval; and by docs who haven't gotten approval but will nevertheless prescibe it for pain, while knowing it will instead be used for detox.  Soon it will be available for ANY physician to prescribe for detox.  The reason it isn't currently, is that it is a narcotic.  Narcotics by law can not be used to detox an addict, without a special DEA license.  Because buprenorphine has such a low abuse potential (because you don't get "high"), the DEA is willing to make an exception for it to be prescribed by any doc, and this should go through soon.  If anyone wants to detox from a narcotic, rather than remaining on one or going on a new one (such as with methadone maintanence), they should find a place using buprenorphine.  It is by far THE best detox drug ever devised.

[tom to Dan]

hey, don't give up on me, Dan. The clinic is a big unknown for me. I believe but cannot say for sure that I will be accepted in the program. I simply can't burn my bridges before I establish at the clinic. Once established, I intend to tell my doctor. But I have been through some outragious, caotic ****. I've been thrown back into hell before by seemingly arbitrary decisions made by the gatekeepers of various treatment programs. Too much is riding on this for me to just chuck my support system and walk blindly into the clinic. I still believe methadone is the answer for me, Dan. Try to understand. I will get there. It's just going to take a little more time. (There is a second clinic in my area which has a modem attached to the only published phone number, so I have not been able to make contact with them so far).
Hope this message finds you well.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Dont sweat or have your day bummed because of anything Dan says.  Whether he knows "HIS FACTS" and believe me I am sure he does.  Dont let anything he says freak you out. You know YOUR LIFE and YOUR SITUATION more than anyone else. Until your comfortable with your potential future no mini interventions will help you.  You will know when the time is right. I know you will know that because you sound like you are looking into everything in your area. I dont think you are BSing.  When the time and finances are right for you GO FOR IT and dont look back.  You know like "Run Forrest Run"! How cool would it be to start the year 2001 on your way to being clean. As I have said before there is more than just Dan looking out for you. So dont freak or think that you are letting Dan down or something. We are ALL pulling for you so dont let anyone get to you by making you feel backed into a corner.  Dan may know all the FACTS but only you know YOURSELF.
Sincerely,
Kimmie

[tom to Kimmie]

thanks, I needed that!

[Frankinscense]

Tom you are a friend That I only want the best for> You in fact know yourself better than anyone else. I respect you and your attempts to the right thing> I just get frustrated because I was where most of you are and wished I would have someone to xplain why I had pain and eventually became afflicted with the horrible disease. When we treat opiate addiction as a disease,we will start to understand it and get treatment. Getting the proper treatment will allow you to lead a more fulfilling life. Pain pills of the short acting type disturb the normal balance of neurotransmiters. This delicate balance is necessary to fight pain and to have normal feelings of well being.
Your Friend,
"Doc" Dan

[To "Doc" Dan, CDCI, LCDI, CI, CDI, etc]

This thread has gotten to be almost as funny a joke as Doc Dan's numerous credentials. Personally, I find everyone's opinion to be useful in its own unique way. Sometimes a post just confirms my ideas about addiction, other times I find helpful advice and support from fellow addicts. Regardless, I simply take what I need and leave the rest. No need to criticize someone's opinion or struggle with a drug we all know can be utterly destructive.
However, with all that said, I must comment on Doc Dan's medical advice postings. And Tom, this will probably offend you, since you appear to be an active member in the Doc Dan Fan Club. But I have a REAL problem with people who 1) misrepresent themselves as medical doctors, when they might not even have a college degree, and 2) feel the need to list numerous credentials after their so-called informal nickname, while communicating with fellow addicts and friends seeking support and/or information. First of all--by listing your credentials, which seem to change depending on the thread (ie, various combinations of the letters C,D,I and L), you send a very subtle message that you know better than the rest of us. Is this something you really want to convey? Yes, you may have had some training, read numerous books, etc. However, there are other people who read this forum who might have a bit more academic and/or professional training, and when we see a person with an obvious inferiority complex displaying their credentials after every post--it garners quite a laugh. And then consider the folks who are desperately seeking advice. They might see that name (Doc Dan), and those ever-changing credentials, and they might decide to follow your advice without the assistance of a more qualified professional. And finally, by listing those letters after your supposedly informal nickname, you create a formality and sense of intimidation to your post (ie, I am DOC DAN, big 'ole CDCI...no, wait, LCDC...oops, almost forgot, LCDI--do NOT question my advice, do NOT second guess my words of superior knowledge. And most of all, do NOT think of me as your friend. After all, friends don't sign every single note with their credentials. That would be a sign of status...)
Okay, enough. I hope you understand my point. You say "Doc Dan" is a nickname...self-imposed? And now, in subsequent threads, that nickname has been abused and distorted. You can actually read threads where people ask Doc Dan to come forward and offer his medical opinion. Ha! This is my problem with internet forums. You get everyday Joe-Schmoe's posting as Doctors, or dirtly old men seducing teenage girls...Ya just never know.
I have an idea...why not sign your name "Dan?" Or maybe, if you really feel insecure and have the need to attach a title or some sense of self-importance, how about "Counselor Dan?" Oops, that might suggest that your an attorney. How about "Intern Dan?" After all, aren't we all interns of some sort? Just sort of living life to learn, watching each other and hoping to use our experiences to better our lives and those around us?

[Brighty to All--- Good Thread]

Thanks to all of you who reveal yourselves in this thread... it is very enlightning in helping me understand my opiate addicted daughter. Regarding the earlier section of the thread,....there are no social class or professional distinctions with this malady. It has no bearing on income level or if a person graduated magna *** laude.Millions of people have stressful jobs, not just nurses.  It has to do with the body human. The addiction rate among doctors and nurses is astounding. I have heard some say that the experimentation began in med school... and easy availability is another big factor. Some are "idealists" experimenting to understand how the drug would affect their patients. About 6 years ago I saw a one hour news documtary on the problem of nurses who are addicted. It was an incredible revelation. This particular show focused alot on demerol being the drug of choice. These were bright, high level men and women who did reveal that their addiction definitely imparted a degree of impairment to their work. I am not here to bash anyone but I do know that when I get on  a plane that the pilots are more likely to be drug and alcohol free. The FAA requirements are for regualr mandatory random testing... and all pilots can expect to be tested at any time... nobody gets missed. I am wondering why a doctor with a scalpel, ready to open up your body at 6 AM in an operating room is not required to be drug tested...and the same for a nurse who needs to administer the accurate dosages of the correct meds. They have a high rate of addiction and the malpractices do occur. I have seen a number of shows on the malpractices that occur  but never has anyone touched on the drug impairment factor being a possibility with doctors and nurses who make these life threatening errors. I am also curious if the sympathetic understanding of addiction is a factor in why some doctors dispense addictive drugs so easily. Just wodering what you all think. Love, Brighty

[Frankinscense]

Thank you for the very informative post. I agree 100% of what you say. WE need more of the voice of reason at this sight.
Thanks again for your input.
Dan..

[Kat]

Brighty,
It's very funny that you mention drug abuse among healthcare workers.  Not funny haha but funny as in a coincidence.  a nurse that I worked with at the Emergency Room just got busted for stealing Demerol.  I feel so bad for her because she has the disease of addiction and got carried away in supporting her habit. She was stealing for at least six months that they KNOW of.  I'll call her Betty for the story's sake.
Betty started out at the ER as a secretary (the position that I held there), co we worked closely together and became friends.  We weren't best friends but she was among the group of us that would hit the bars after a 12 hour shift and also after the various social functions to keep the festivities going.  Betty then applied for a postition as a Tech as she got closer to getting her nursing degree, but did secretary shifts as overtime. There wasn't a day that went by when you wouldn't see her there with her schoolbooks on the desk.  Trying to study in between registering patients, entering orders and answering the phones.  Everyone said they had never seen anyone study so hard.  She ended up in the ER for a terrible headache that she had had for almost a month.  Turns out she had Viral Menengitis.  She was seen by Neurology who treated her and she ended up out of work and school for almost 6 weeks.  thinking back, there was one day that she told me that the neuro told her he would not prescribe any more narcotics for her.  The neuro group at this hospital are a nasty, uncaring lot.  So, I really didn't think much about it.
After she graduated and before she took her boards she got letters of recommendation from ten different doctors to land her a job on one of the floors.  She was very well liked.  It's policy that no one can work in the ER as a nurse until they have at least two years experience on the "floors."  Well, being as liked and personable as she was and taking te initiative to take all the extra classes required to be an Emergency nurse, she managed to slip in and get a job as an ER nurse eight months after she got her degree.  This caused a riff with a lot of the othe nurses that had been putting in their time and waiting even after the two years to come back down to the ER.

Her best friend was in charge of the Pyxis, the machine that holds all the meds.  She noticed that the count was continuaously off.  The problem was though that there was no one RN's number the stood out.  It took them almost 7 months to figure out that it might be Betty.  So they watched her closely for six months.  One night, the Demerol count was way off.  When this happens, the nurses on that shift have to stay until something is figured out. Well, Betty had gotten off shift at 2:30am so was gone before the count was done.  One of the Nursing supervisors went into the supply room to look around for a lost case of meds or something. He saw about thirty butterfly needles in the Sharps container.  There are containers in every room but rarely do nurses dispose of sharps in the supply room.  That was reported, they finally let the night shift go home at 11am and they stepped up their investigation.
Well, Betty's habit go out of contreol and they finally had enough evidence to prove it was Betty.  She was using all her friend's and co-worker's ID numbers to access the Pyxis.  Well she used a nurse number on a day that that nurse had gone home sick.  Betty must have though she was still there but she had left over an hour before her number was entered in the Pyxis.

They called her into the office at the beginning of her shift just over a month ago.  All the Nursing Heads were there along with a DEA rep and the local police.  She denied it over and over until they told her about the day she entered the number of the nurse that had gone home.  They told her it was either rehab or jail.  they were nice enough to get her out quietly and without causing an embarrassing scene.

She is still in rehab, she was put into a 90 day treatment facility.  I have sent her cards and she has written me notes off and on, she seems to be doing well.  I do feel bad for her.  One day she had everything and the next thing her world was turned upside down.  She had to go home that day and tell her husband and her two teenagers that she is an addict.  She also had to tell them that she no longer has a job nor a nursing license.  They took her license away for at least 2 years.  Afte that she can only work in a facility that does not have narcotics or controlled drugs of any kind.  She worked so hard and lost it all because of her addiction.  She was only a nurse for two years.

I think about it and wonder how she got started, maybe it was from the menengitis.  But it obviously got pretty bad if she moved up to injectable demerol.  I have had demerol and I can't imagine working or feeling normal on it.  Her husbadn told some of the girls that have been helping out the family that she would be really bitchy at times.  Then she would go in the bathroom, lock the door to take a bath.  When she came out she was all better, upbeat, lively, full of energy.  She also used to leave her house to run to the ER to "get something she forgot."  The design of the ER allowed her to access a Pyxis in an area that is closed or used scarcely at night.

Myself, I was worried that I was becoming an addict, but I think I have it under control with the help of a great doctor.  I have Fibromyalgia, Arthritis in my small joints , cluster headaches and a small chronically infected kidney that causes me constant flank pain.  I told her in a letter I sent to her about my problems and told her I will be there for her if she needs to talk to someone who understands.

Addiction runs rampant in hospitals.  The funny thing is that there are two doctors that were put on suspension for prescription drug abuse last year.  These two doctors were famous for calling any patient that asked for pain meds or had pain with no concrete cause drug seekers and addicts.  I guess thay wanted to keep all the drugs for themselves.

Sorry this is so long...

[to Kat]

Thanks so much for posting this moving story.  These are the types of posts that help us addicts, not the type which glorify drugs.  Thanks again.  Jodie

[tom to Kat]

I remember hearing the stat that medical pros are 7 times more likely to become addicted to drugs than non-medicos. Access is everything, apparently.

[Vicodin Gurrl to Dan]

Regarding your earlier post--RN's are routinely tested randomly for drugs, it is commonplace, at least in the facility where I am employed.  If a nurse is caught with a substance in her blood that she does not have an Rx for, she will be held accountable to the state BRN (Board of Registered Nursing).  She will also be prosecuted if she is under the influence of any substance WHILE working, unless she has specific permission from her doctor and her supervisors to be taking the substance.  Just thought you would be interested in having some additional information.  Regarding the above story about the nurse stealing drugs from the pyxis, this nurse must have had her head on backwards.  An RN from my unit lost her license for the very same thing about 2 years ago.  You WOULD have to be insane to steal drugs from your employer, especially in the manner desribed above.  It is a DEFINITE ticket out of the profession and a sure sign of a person who's life is spiraling scarily out of control.  I am thankful that even in the depths of my pain, this would never be an option for me, nor would taking narcotics out of the mouths of my patients, so to speak.  I suppose my professional ethics are (thank God) simply stronger than my disease. Peace...

[Brighty to Kat, Vic Gurrl and everyone e]

I do appreciate all the replies... I think the point simply is that nobody is immune to addiction. I doubt that there are many young experimenters who are reading this board. I suppose we are all preaching to the choir :-))  I wish Betty peace and healing and yes, she did have her head on backwards... it's simply a side effect of chemical impairment.... makes anyone insane... she was so judgement impaired that she risked everything... but I don't think she lost... her final mistake is what got her help and the opportunity to find a path to healing. I suppose it's only speculation what caused her to begin drugs... but more than one or 2 already addicted persons has chosen the nursing profession like a ********* choosing to be a scout master. I am somewhat relieved to hear that some faciilties randomly test nurses.... but I do think it should be mandated... this could put the brakes on a few folks to get some help before they ruin someone elses life along with their own. I do know that the AMA is very against drug testing for doctors as a mandated type of thing. I am not sure what the arguments are but the fact is that the rate of malpractice is signifigant and you just can't rule out that some of them were impaired or sleep deprived from their own addictions. Peace and prayers to all. Love, Brighty

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

This is one of the best threads I've read here.  What about the mistakes made at the pharmacy end?  I read that the rate of mistakes has gone up 300% in recent years, even with all the computerized information available.  We are getting it at both ends of the profession!

[Brighty to JB]

Excellent point !! There are more than a few reported fatalities due to mistakes in filling RXs in recent years. I am not at all confident to open a bottle and just pop it in my mouth... I think there is going to have to be better education for the public on this one. This is a true story...  my friend Michelle who lives around the block from me had 2 prescriptions filled for her self and one for her teenage daughter about 2 years ago. The one for the teen was an antibiotic and the 2 for herself were for acid reflux and migrane headache. The pharmacy put the migrane med in the antibiotic bottle and vice versa. My friend delivered the medicine for her daughter to the school nurse for dispensation during the school day. The nurse got a call from a teacher that the girl was asleep in class and would not wake up. The nurse re-inspected the med she had given the girl earlier and discovered the mistake. She called my friend who examined her bottle and found the antibiotic..... you can imagine all the problems... the first being that a poweful drug was given to an unsuspecting student, the second was the concern and speculation that the kid came under since so many teens have drug problems, the 3rd was the nurse nearly lost her job... and was temporarily suspended for not inspecting the meds before dispensing..... all of it turned into a big hoopla.... all because of a pharmacy mistake... and it was thankfully not a fatality. I think there are as many addcited pharmicists as there are nurses and doctors. I don't have an answer.... but open your bottle right when you pay and ask them to double check that they got it right. If we all did this it would keep them on their toes. TAke care, Brighty.

[Ayesha Coxon]

It is addicts like that who get their hands on pain medicine, abuse it then make it virtually impossible for someone that really needs it to obtain it because Doctors are pretty skeptical to believe people because once again......people that abuse it.....like the hydrocodone queen.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Exactly. What about those of us that are chronic pain patients, and can't find pain relief because of drug seekers? What do they   do? They send us off saying they can't help they are afraid of us getting addicted,  so what do we do, we attempt suicide.  Thank God I found a compassionate physiatrist that put me on methadone and saved my life! Do you know how many commit suicide because of dr's that won't help!

Now I am healed ( had trigeminal neuralgia, fibromyaligia, and other probs), and am detoxing. But detoxing off methadone is so horrible, I've gone from 70 mg to now about 8mg. As you get lower it gets harder. I was just put on valium to help with the muscle hyperactivity/spasms  which seems to conflict with methadone..its driving me nuts. But methadone saved my life..

Chronic pain patients have a less than 1% chance of getting addicted people! Let them have a normal life!

Its ok to fully determine whether or not that person is a drug seeker.. but don't let someone go that is really in pain just because of your paranoia!
Ayesha
***@****

[Kathy, RN Addict]

I've just been reading thru these posts, seems to me that I can relate really well to several of you.  I started out doing the right thing-no dope at work, then I did just 1 or 2 Darvocet.  From there I progressed to 1 Percocet.  It took a couple of years to progress to 2 to 3 Percocet.  Then I crossed that final line-----Demerol and the quickest way to feel it. I used every rationale in the book, "I don't let my patients hurt, I deserve it because I go that extra mile, I have real honest pain, etc." The pain was real and it got worse and worse as my disease progressed.  After I was detoxed my head ached for 1-2 months, I thought it would never quit hurting, but it did.  I took the drugs, hated myself, and felt like a piece of **** so I had to take more to deal with the violation of my core values. It is the most vicious circle of them all.  I, personally, don't believe in Methadone, as it is simply trading addictions. But I can't make those chioces for anyone besides myself.  If I can get clean then anyone can as I have been using for about 30 years.  But it took rock bottom for me, I lost everything and very nearly went to prison for 10 years----because that's what it took for me. I think that I'm doing OK now but I tried everything-NA, AA, etc. finally I gave it to God and grabbed hold of one particular scripture that was sent to me-God once told Paul, "My grace is sufficent, my strength is made perfect in weakness."  When I found this promise I thought "I have plenty of that!!! (weakness) So far, I haven't picked up again.  Now it's been nearly a year and I have my Limited nursing license back and after 2 years at $6 to $8 dollar and hour jobs, $months living in a homeless shelter and many more "lessons", I begin a nursing job in 4 days, I have a apartment, and a car.  And I am thankful now for my little one bedroom apt and for my Escort (lol) and for the chance to make some money again.  But honestly I am so much better off, some days I actually think I like myself and I can look in the mirrow everyday, and those achievements are very important and came at no small cost.  I son't ever want to go back.  Getting high had not been fun for me for a very long time, don't get me wrong, I still have cravings and temptations but I try to claim God's promise that His grace is sufficient-everyday. Good luck and God Bless to all of us-----

[Kathy, RN Addict]

I've just been reading thru these posts, seems to me that I can relate really well to several of you.  I started out doing the right thing-no dope at work, then I did just 1 or 2 Darvocet.  From there I progressed to 1 Percocet.  It took a couple of years to progress to 2 to 3 Percocet.  Then I crossed that final line-----Demerol and the quickest way to feel it. I used every rationale in the book, "I don't let my patients hurt, I deserve it because I go that extra mile, I have real honest pain, etc." The pain was real and it got worse and worse as my disease progressed.  After I was detoxed my head ached for 1-2 months, I thought it would never quit hurting, but it did.  I took the drugs, hated myself, and felt like a piece of **** so I had to take more to deal with the violation of my core values. It is the most vicious circle of them all.  I, personally, don't believe in Methadone, as it is simply trading addictions. But I can't make those chioces for anyone besides myself.  If I can get clean then anyone can as I have been using for about 30 years.  But it took rock bottom for me, I lost everything and very nearly went to prison for 10 years----because that's what it took for me. I think that I'm doing OK now but I tried everything-NA, AA, etc. finally I gave it to God and grabbed hold of one particular scripture that was sent to me-God once told Paul, "My grace is sufficent, my strength is made perfect in weakness."  When I found this promise I thought "I have plenty of that!!! (weakness) So far, I haven't picked up again.  Now it's been nearly a year and I have my Limited nursing license back and after 2 years at $6 to $8 dollar and hour jobs, $months living in a homeless shelter and many more "lessons", I begin a nursing job in 4 days, I have a apartment, and a car.  And I am thankful now for my little one bedroom apt and for my Escort (lol) and for the chance to make some money again.  But honestly I am so much better off, some days I actually think I like myself and I can look in the mirrow everyday, and those achievements are very important and came at no small cost.  I son't ever want to go back.  Getting high had not been fun for me for a very long time, don't get me wrong, I still have cravings and temptations but I try to claim God's promise that His grace is sufficient-everyday. Good luck and God Bless to all of us-----

[Kathy, RN Addict]

I've just been reading thru these posts, seems to me that I can relate really well to several of you.  I started out doing the right thing-no dope at work, then I did just 1 or 2 Darvocet.  From there I progressed to 1 Percocet.  It took a couple of years to progress to 2 to 3 Percocet.  Then I crossed that final line-----Demerol and the quickest way to feel it. I used every rationale in the book, "I don't let my patients hurt, I deserve it because I go that extra mile, I have real honest pain, etc." The pain was real and it got worse and worse as my disease progressed.  After I was detoxed my head ached for 1-2 months, I thought it would never quit hurting, but it did.  I took the drugs, hated myself, and felt like a piece of **** so I had to take more to deal with the violation of my core values. It is the most vicious circle of them all.  I, personally, don't believe in Methadone, as it is simply trading addictions. But I can't make those chioces for anyone besides myself.  If I can get clean then anyone can as I have been using for about 30 years.  But it took rock bottom for me, I lost everything and very nearly went to prison for 10 years----because that's what it took for me. I think that I'm doing OK now but I tried everything-NA, AA, etc. finally I gave it to God and grabbed hold of one particular scripture that was sent to me-God once told Paul, "My grace is sufficent, my strength is made perfect in weakness."  When I found this promise I thought "I have plenty of that!!! (weakness) So far, I haven't picked up again.  Now it's been nearly a year and I have my Limited nursing license back and after 2 years at $6 to $8 dollar and hour jobs, $months living in a homeless shelter and many more "lessons", I begin a nursing job in 4 days, I have a apartment, and a car.  And I am thankful now for my little one bedroom apt and for my Escort (lol) and for the chance to make some money again.  But honestly I am so much better off, some days I actually think I like myself and I can look in the mirrow everyday, and those achievements are very important and came at no small cost.  I son't ever want to go back.  Getting high had not been fun for me for a very long time, don't get me wrong, I still have cravings and temptations but I try to claim God's promise that His grace is sufficient-everyday. Good luck and God Bless to all of us-----

[Brighty to Kathy]

God bless you too Kathy, and yes... God's grace IS sufficient. Thank you for that passage which I will keep for myself also. Love, Brighty

[Annie to Ayesha.......... "doc" Dan and]

I'm pretty new to this site......and when I first started reading it, my reaction was similar to yours.  I thought (after reading the widomaker site)OH NO!  This is why I struggled in pain for 8 yrs. I have to admit I was somewhat angry.  But now that my condition has progressed to the point of needing surgury once again, I have been put on Vicodin for the first time (for mngmt. of pain) and I have learned a great deal about addictions.  I know that I could very, well , one day, be where these people are.  I tune in daily and have grown to have a lot of respect for these people in that I have the ability to put myself in their shoes.
As for Mr. Dan, You have worked very hard at educating yourself about addiction and/or mmt's. There is something that is very disturbing to me.  You take a very hard stance against pain medicine (short acting opiates).  You see, a couple of years ago I went from dr. to dr. for pain in my left knee, could hardly walk.  I have several other serious ortho problems,but this was the problem at the time.  They all took x-rays and said, "oh, it must be arthritis."  They sent me on my merry way w/ no pain medicine.  To make a long story short:  1 or 2 yrs later I found a GOOD Doctor who diagnosed the problem there on the spot and set me up for surgury.  Guess what, I had a torn acl, other torn ligaments, a bone spur and progressed arthritis,a screw that was sinking into the bone, etc. etc.  Do you realize how I felt.  I am in my early thirtys and need a hip replacement,( but wont get one till I'm in my 50s, because they dont work on younger people) and pain is to be expected, but w/ all this going on I'm scared that there is a life of suffering ahead and no telling what kind of restrictions the gov't will inforce, because of all the issues stated here.  I'm just a bit curious, if you were my doctor, what would you suggest I do??? Take Ibuprofen i'm sure.  I have real passionate feelings about this topic and I know i've taken up a lot of space, but please do reply.
Tom, I agree whole heartedly w/ your philosophy on the matter.  You speak sooo eloquently on the behalf of pain and pain sufferers.  I wish most doctors felt the way you do.  The pain clinicS I HAVE been to do not even prescribe REAL pain meds.  Well I would like to hear from all of you.  I guess I would just like to know what you all think is ahead of us w/ the gov'ts "war on Drugs," and how we will all be affected by it.  The Patients Bill of Rights doesnt seem to hold much water where I live.  Annie