Damage from opiates

[whatitistoburn]

Doc,

Maybe you can help me with this one. I just don't get it, we are all told that we don't have to worry about organ damage from opiate abuse. The brain is an organ, isn't it? And it must be damaged if it takes up to a year or 2 for some people to get through the whole detox process. I quit taking morhphine about a month ago, and my head is so spacy I feel I can hardly think at times, I feel "dumbed down" and am not looking forward to this for many months to come. I feel opiates do damage to this organ, and I think we are getting contadicting messages.

Burn

[suzieneedshelp]

WEll...whoever said it doesnt damage us physically is evidentally this dayum disease convincing the speaker.  The brain, the liver, the heart, etc.  how about car wrecks, gun shot wounds, knife stabs, well...it goes on and on.  Plz dont anyone fool themselves to think they are not damaging their bodies with opiates!  Also i had very low Blood pressure for allmy life.. now it remains high for this last year or so.  SO...it is much much higher for me than high!  From 90 over 70 to 155 over 90 or more.
Love yas...
Suzie

[vettezr1]

One-Two years for complete detoxification? Say it isn’t so honey bunch that’s almost one full year past my life expectancy. Now what?

[momonhydros]

is that true? that opiates raise your blood pressure mine was normal too all 120/75 now its been really high 178/99 heart seems to pound really hard all the time. god what have we done to ourselves. 2 years to feel normal? ill never be able to do it, freakin scares the hell out of me.

[whatitistoburn]

That's right, you old goat.

[vettezr1]

Ok a little clarification is in order here.  I was just teasing Burn. I am no expert but I am pretty sure the Blood pressure thing is only acute during CT, WD. And not for very long
It only affected me (Heart pounding High Blood pressure) for a few days. As far as anything else e.g. (long term damage) I don’t know for sure but I was on a very high dose of Morphine for over a year and I have no damage none. I am a little mental but I had that before I started the Morphine. If you are concerned get checked out by a doctor.
Good luck.

[twiceain'tnice]

when I was in detox i had a clonodine patch and had it for three weeks after till things got stable.  It helped and then my blood pressure got back to normal.  I'm 48 and have used and abused for a looong time.  Clean seven days and very happy.

[momonhydros]

sorry vette didnt mean to sound so dramatic, im still using so i cant say the withdrawl is making my bp high. thanks for the clearification. you did make me laugh about the mental thing though.:) have a good day!nancy

[tracer3]

Hi all. Just want to add some inspiration and "light at the end of the tunnel." I used to post here under the name tex. I've been clean off opiates for over a year now - June 1 will be 14 months, actually. And while yes, it does take time for things to get back to normal and there are set backs, bad days that blindside you, gradually the good days will outnumber the bad and eventually you will find that this whole process no longer dominates your thoughts (which is why I don't come here very often - now I mainly do to give back what I got during that awful time that I was getting clean). What the doctor has said about your brain slowly getting back to normal is absolutely true, in my experience. It will happen. It's like coming back to life. Every time I thought how bad I was feeling I reminded myself how bad I'd ALREADY felt and how I was one more day past that. I could be starting over and facing the whole crappy process again, instead of being a week into it, or a month, or a year, or whatever. After a month things really looked up. I still had sad days (still do). I still had cravings off and on. Sometimes so intense I started obsessing. Then I would distract myself, just start doing something else instead of allowing myself to wallow in those cravings or that depression or whatever. Read a book, go for a walk, watch a movie, just whatever, and then the worst would be over. Because once you are through the physical withdrawal, what you are facing is all mental. And even if you can't control that, you can control how you react to it. I won't lie and say I never crave, but I do believe that this is my life and I'm the one who gets to say what I do with it and if I choose to act on that. I've had some major migraines and a root canal in the past year and have been faced with using pain killers for those. I did so responsibly. It also made me crave them terribly. But again, I'm the one who decides what to do about that, and I never want to be a prisoner to pills again, so I choose not to be. I flushed the rest of the bottle down the toilet and stopped obsessing. But now I know if I have to use for something like that, I feel that I can do so. Not everyone can, and that doesn't make any of us better than the others - it just means our bodies might react somewhat differently. For me I'm glad of every miserable moment I spent in withdrawal and before that being chained to the pills, because I remind myself just how awful that was and how I am unwilling to ever experience it again. In a way the horror of withdrawal is a gift - it's a huge deterrent for me. I went through it many times before that happened though. Sorry to ramble just wanted to let you know things do get better, gradually, day by day, although some days you step backward instead of forward. Just keep moving in that direction. Only you can do it, and I swear it is well worth it. I think I still have to struggle with depression now and then, but hell I did that before I ever took a pill - which is one reason I did so in the first place. But that's part of living, the gift of life, and every bit of it makes us what and who we are. I try to channel mine and not wallow in it. I'm a writer so I think, how can I use this in my work? Find something positive to focus on. Most of all, keep in mind that things do get better, and it doesn't take forever. I was pretty much normal after six weeks, certainly by two months, at least physically, sleep-wise, all that. After that, it's your mind that is healing, and you can help that along by remembering you control your response to this situation. Good luck!

[vettezr1]

Don’t be sorry. I forget how scary it can be. That’s my insensitive side it’s a guy thing.
So when I joke around which I shouldn’t do here I realized I might have frightened or at a minimum caused some confusion, I will restrain myself in future posts. But
I was serious about not having any damage from the Opiate use not that I encourage anyone to have a license to indulge. I followed doctor’s instructions (even if he was a quack) and ate right and took lots of vitamins and had many blood tests.

[whatitistoburn]

I didn't say I thought addiction was a diseae, I don't know if it is or not. I didn't say I was getting conflicting messages from this forum, I meant conflicting messages from all that I have read or heard from some other addicts. I am a chronic pain patient, but had decided I would live with the pain no matter what because morphine took away my life. Thank you for your excellent insight's.

Vette...I did not mean that everyone who has taken opiates is brain damaged, but that the opiates do affect the brain pathways and neurotransmitter's,that the brain is an organ, and I have read and heard all over the place that opiates do not damage the organs in the body, when obviously it does. I guess I should have been more clear.

Burn

[MethMan]

That was a great post, Tracer.
It is a long haul to feel better.  I've got 7 months clean time now from a methadone habit and you're right, it is a day by day thing.  Some days are better than others, but the worst day of being clean beats the best day of being a prisoner to our drug of choice.  That crappy obnoxious saying, "It didn't take a day to get this way and it won't take a day to get out of it." rings true.  It sucks, but it is true.  But when I'm having a rough day, I always take a minute and remember the first week of coming off that ****.  No sleep, RLS, no energy.  Kind of puts things in perspective.
For me, it took going inpatient.  But I knew that I had the monkey beat the day I walked in the place.  It wasn't easy to say the least, but its not impossible either.
While inpatient was a good thing, looking back, I STILL don't believe the "disease" hype; all the "powerless over your addiction" stuff.  Who's powerless?  The only part that seems incideous about this whole thing is that once you're in the throws of the problem, it seems easier to stay where you are instead of taking the scary, uncertain steps to help yourself.  At least I know it was that way for me.  Everyone is different to be sure.  And for the people that have to endure chronic pain, man... those are the strong ones.  And when you look at it in those terms, did I have it bad?  Hell no.  

[tracer3]

Well said, methman. I couldn't agree more. I finally knew when I was really ready to quit, and it was when things just weren't fun anymore - but that's not to say that I didn't know that after a period of abstinence I would get a short "honeymoon" with the pills again. I'd quit enought times before to get to that point, but the last time was strictly for me. But knowing it can be "fun
again is when you have to suck it up and not indulge, which is hard to do. Sounds like you managed that, and I applaud you. Congratulations on your accomplishments! I agree we are not powerless, and buying into that sells us short. In a way we are lucky - if this is a disease, at least we can control our own recovery, unlike people dying from cancer. In that way, things could be a whole let of a lot worse. I think this is a very individual thing and no one can judge anyone else based on their own experiences, but at the same time we all go through a lot of the same ****, and it really helps to know that. Thanks for reaching out, and congratulations again.

[mrmichael67]

I don't recall seeing anywhere that opiate ABUSE doesn't harm any organs of the body.  Who's saying that?

[Thomas050]

That was one of the most inspirational posts on opiate addiction i ever read. I would like to print it out and frame it and put it on the walls of opiate addiction treatment clinics everywhere. Kudos to you and your success and best of luck with your writing career!
T050

[vettezr1]

Burn is a big girl and she certainly does not need me to speak for her. But I think there is some confusion. Her post was very clear to me so I don’t know what the big misunderstanding is. Burn is a pain patient not an addict. Pain patients are told that pain meds will for the most part if taken as prescribed not harm us. That includes kidneys, heart, liver whatever you want to include right or wrong that’s what we are told as far as the Tylenol I was told up to 4 Grams a day with no ill effects and had bi-monthly blood tests to put my mind at ease. Burn was asking about the Brain and why we still feel shitty and out of sorts weeks if not months after stopping the pain meds. Not cravings or dreaming of pills. I myself would love to see the Doctor who seems very knowledgeable as far as addictive personalities goes address her question. WHAT happens when a chronic pain patient says I am done with pain meds and will suck it up and take the pain just not to have to deal with these damn meds? Seems like a simple question to me. When will the foggy feeling lift, not when will we stop craving pills because non addicts obviously never did.

[Kurt Cobain]

Being a chronic pain patient must present a new level of hell (one which, thankfully, I never experienced). . .unless you want to count emotional pain, which is what prompted many of us to self-medicate in the first place.  But (hopefully) we are not here to quibble over semantics or to say "My pain is worse (or different) than your pain."  No matter what terms you want to use, it all boils down to this: because of one kind of pain or another, we have all ended up trapped under the weight of things that once provided us relief.

Burn, if you are a chronic physical pain sufferer who has chosen to stop using narcotics, I give you more credit than you can imagine.  I always looked at having "real" physical pain as the absolute BOMB because then I could "legitimately" use "medication" for my pain. . .this to the point of ending up faking the pain and (very, VERY easily) pulling one over on physicians or, when all else failed, going against the most basic human survival instinct and deliberately injuring myself to have a "reason" to get pain medication.  I know I am not alone here.  Think for a minute how powerful this disease is if it can negate or reverse an instinct as deep as the one for survival. . .

And yes, it IS a disease.  Again, I am not interested in (and please pardon the crudeness, as well as the bitterness that led to it in the first place) "mental masturbation".  This is what I refer to as the practice of metaphorically stroking our long, white. . .beards. . .and "speaking knowledgeably" about subjects of which we obviously know nothing -- other than the regurgitation of other people's theories, the dropping of "power" buzzwords and -- in general -- the showing off of a lot of fancy "book larnin'" for its own sake.

Sorry for the mini-rant. . .but those of you who have done enough rehabs and counseling appointments have undoubtedly run across these types of individuals.  I said all that only to say this -- that, to me, the theory and study of addictionology is a fine thing, and not to be disparaged. . .but if it doesn't keep a junkie clean in the Real World, then it just ain't worth SQUAT.  I am a fervent disciple of the Church of Whatever Works.  If you have remained clean today because of a) a Twelve Step group, b) your Higher Power, c) good rest and nutrition, or even d) a ritual that you do daily that involves a spatula, lots of rubber bands and intense Lint Worship. . .it's all good as far as I am concerned.  If I met a rubber band, spatula-wielding Lint Worshipper who had been clean twenty years, I would be more inclined to discuss with them "How'd you do that?" than I would be to listen to an academic or even a physician who had no PRACTICAL experience to share with me.  First, I want to get clean and stay clean. . .once I have that reasonably (and for the moment) under control, then I may be more interested in theories. . .and book larnin'.

So, now that I've lost almost everyone, here is what I have for you, Burn -- LOTS of admiration for choosing to deal with physical pain (how much of which, I can't even begin to know, since I'm not you), and a term which I'm frankly very surprised that the physician here did not even bring up, which is the exact syndrome you are now experiencing after "coming down" after a long period of opiate use.  The term is Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (abbreviated as PAWS).  This is a set of symptoms very much like you have described: a "fuzziness" a "disconnected" feeling. . .absolute "blank" moments in the middle of a thought or train of thought. . .emotional volatility with little to no warning. . .and many, many other symptoms along those lines which I'm sure that, off the top of my pointy little head, I'm not remembering now.

While what I'm about to say does indeed suck, I still need to say it. . .this is absolutely NORMAL.  Your brain and nervous system don't give a rat's patootie whether you were a hardcore horsehead spun out on the needle or a very legitimate pain patient taking perfectly legal medication as directed with no "junkiness" involved.  Very simply, your nervous system has gotten used to adapting to being narcotically affected and has reacted accordingly, providing alternate pathways and solutions in order to keep functioning under what were, in a purely non-negative or emotional context, "un-natural" conditions.

With the removal of the opiates, the brain and nervous system now has a problem.  Think of it as a society that had run out of petroleum for fuel hundreds of years ago.  They junked or garaged all their gasoline-powered vehicles long ago, and have long since developed new ways to get around. . .the bicycle, the electric transport -- hell, as radical as it sounds, even walking.  Suddenly, however, from somewhere, an unlimited source of petroleum for gasoline-powered engines is found!  Hooray!  Fire up the Hummer and let's ROLL, baby!

Well, not quite.  The Hummer in question (and the Honda Civic, and the BMW, and the Dodge Viper, et al) haven't been used for a long, long time. . .haven't even been thought of, in fact.  The very idea of paved roads may have long gone by the wayside, even. . .at least the kind of roads engineered to stand up to the kind of abuse they would take from heavy, gas-powered machines.  Traffic signals would not be a thing of the past. . .but neither would they have much resemblance to the ones used "back in the day".  Why have computerized, four-way signals to control eight to twelve lanes of auto traffic when the fastest vehicle used for the last hundred years was an electric bike with a top speed of fifteen miles per hour?

I hope I haven't lost anyone yet (mostly, me. . .) -- but your brain and nervous system (the fuel-less society) has adapted to the conditions it had placed upon it (the narcotics, or the "lack of fuel").  Suddenly, the fuel shortage is a thing of the past and the nervous system (the Hummers, the SUV's, the Toyota Tercels) are all still there but almost inoperable from lack of use.  The society has to revamp everything (your brain and neural pathways, the "roads and highways") to accommodate the new (or is it old?) means of travel.

The good news?  It can be done. . .I have been off of opiates for just over a year now, and believe me, I KNOW what you're going through now. . .it can feel awful, like you're the kid riding the shortest Short Bus to school sometimes, or like you want to laugh, then cry, then beat the hell out of something (all in the same several minutes).  You have NO IDEA where you might have parked your car in the Wal-Mart lot, which is twenty-seven square miles in diameter, by the way (or so it seems).

This might be the oldest cliche in the book, but in this case, it's true -- it gets better.  Really.  The bad news?  Although your symptoms WILL lessen over time -- noticeably -- the entire process of "re-routing" your brain and nervous system may take up to twenty-four months.  All the advice I can give you is what worked for me -- educate yourself as much as possible about this (maybe begin with a Google search of "post acute withdrawal syndrome") and try to find a physician who KNOWS what PAWS is, at least. . .and if they do not, find an addictionologist.  The best resource, however, is other people who have been through/are going through what you are beginning to experience now. . .namely, recovering addicts.  I think many of us are familiar with the two primary twelve-step groups where you can find these people, although since you are coming off of narcotics, I think one may be more valuable than the other.

I want to thank everyone who stayed with me this far, and for allowing me the courtesy of taking so much room and time in this forum on one post.  I tend to go on (and on, and on. . .), and for this I apologize if it appeared rude.  This is just such an important topic to me that I felt it necessary to provide all the help and info I could. . .one of the primary factors leading to relapse of ANY kind of substance abuse is the emotional strain and stress of the symptoms of PAWS.  Understanding won't make it go any faster, but maybe it can make it be a little easier.  Let me know how you're doing.

Peace,

Kurt

[tracer3]

Thank you for the post. I thought you explained things wonderfully, and I couldn't agree more. I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all disease (if it is a disease - and I don't claim to know the answer there). I think we each have to find what works for us - but we will all experience similar things, and you pretty much nailed it. For me the most important thing was learning about the process, too, so I could understand what was going on with my body and my head. I don't think I have a full understanding yet, but do have a pretty good grasp. Like you, I've been free for a little over a year (14 months) and can attest that it does get a whole lot easier. But I do still get cravings. It's what we do about them that is important. I was a chronic pain patient but I welcomed the pain because it opened the door for me. Luckily I finally had a surgery that worked right when I was ready to quit, or I don't know how I would have dealt with the pain - although it was, admittededly, never as bad as I made out (to get more pills, of course). As far as disease aspect of this goes, I am conflicted. I think there is certainly a predisposition to this and a disease component, but I think we are not helpless over it either; there is a definite behavioral component - it's not like, say, brain cancer that you have no real control over. Of course that's just my nickel's worth opinion. Anyway just wanted to say thanks, you explained that very well. And congrats on the achievements! tracer/tex3

[vettezr1]

Dude pretty awesome info, Thanks for sharing but not to be an ******* the one thing I am totally unclear about is the redundant remarks that seem to infer that for what ever reason there is going to be a long term problem with possible drugs in the future.
Let me explain. I agree and have done research that yes the nervous system will have to readjust that’s a given I won’t beat a dead horse. But big deal, so while are nervous systems are adjusting to the new Opiate free environment we may feel foggy, shitty, a little “off” whatever. There are more than a few of us here I know because they hang out with me that have none no desire to take meds not now or ever they are sick of them they only took them for pain. Now that the pain or surgery if over they are done with them so unless this is one of my cloudy moments I always seem to interrupt at the end of posts that for whatever reason its implied that there will be a continua’s struggle with the pain meds over this extended period and I don’t understand or see that as the case?  

[tracer3]

Thanks buddy, you made my day. :)

[Susie B]

Sitting here alone, crying, reading your wonderful comments. my husband, on his 15th day of Percocet CT has just crawled back into bed to suffer his "dark black hole" alone. (He thinks if I don't see him I won't worry) He's lost 12lbs, has the skin color of cement, no appetite, no interest in anything and is just breaking my heart.  Your comments are giving me hope- Thankyou.

[whatitistoburn]

Thanks guys for understanding what I meant, and not twisting it into something else.

Burn

[tracer3]

Thanks buddy, you made my day. :)

[Kurt Cobain]

Let me see if I've got this here. . .you're saying that there are many people here who began using pain meds for physical problems and now, for whatever reason, want to stop using them.  That certainly does seem to be the case, doesn't it?  The problem comes when their doctors keep on writing them scrips for narcotics long after the actual need for them (the condition causing the physical pain) is gone.  You'll see many stories here of people who took their medicine "as directed" at first, maybe for a long time. . .but later realized that they were no longer taking it for the painful condition, but either for the "high" it gave them or just because the symptoms of withdrawal whenever they tried to stop were too much for them.  (By the way, unfortunately, I have real-life experience with this. . .ten years after my father's heart surgery his doctor was still prescribing him 100 Tylenol 4's a month.  One time when my father expressed concern over this, the doctor in question just laughed and said "So you're hooked, huh?" and that was it.  Thanks to this *******, I found my substance of choice right in my very own home and learned how to take it from my addicted father (whose untimely death at age 67 undoubtedly stemmed in large part from his long-term addiction to "unnecessary" narcotics).  Usually I'm all about peace and love, but where this "doctor" is concerned. . .well, if there is a hell, I hope he burns in it.

Anyway. . .said that only to say this: no matter what led to the tolerance (if anyone has a problem with the word "addiction") to the long-term use of narcotics, in the end, post-acute withdrawal is something that EVERYONE must go through, no matter what.  Yes, it does suck. . .especially if you are someone like my father who genuinely did not know what he was getting into and found himself screwed once he became aware of the situation.

The problem is, "addict", "non-addicted legitimate user", "chronic pain patient", whatever category you belong to. . .once you have used opiate drugs for a long period of time, things change inside of you, and the only thing that can heal those changes is time.

Am I saying that these people should be very careful about ever using narcotic painkillers again in their lives?  In a word. . .hell, YES (well, two words, actually, but this is very important).  Why?  Especially if they didn't start using the drugs to get high?

Because the brain doesn't know the difference.  The brain of someone who has used narcotics long-term will, in most cases, be "cleared" of most PAWS symptoms after twenty-four months or so. . .but once you put the same chemical back into the system, the "old patterns" are still there (unlike they would be in the brain of a person who had never used narcotics long-term).  Therefore, it is much faster and easier for former narcotic users and abusers to become "re-addicted" than for first-time "virgins".  In fact, chronic pain sufferers may be even MORE susceptible to this danger.  Let me explain. . .

When a pain patient, for whatever reasons, desires to stop taking narcotic meds, he or she faces a unique obstacle that all of us other junkies somehow do not -- the deep, almost unconscious, urgings from within that tell them to keep using their medications.  Like I said, the brain itself, as an organ, is neither good nor evil. . .it has no motives other than for everything to keep working as smoothly as possible, whatever the conditions.  It's not surprising at all, then, that many chronic pain sufferers experience an INCREASE of pain even before they actually stop taking their medicines.  There's nothing evil, or wrong, or shameful about it. . .it is the perfectly normal reaction of a brain used to a certain situation doing what it can to keep the status quo.  There's nothing conscious about it, as far as the patient is concerned -- no deliberate attempt to con a doctor need be present (and usually for these people is not -- they leave that to the hardcore pill junkies like me :)

I hope I understood what you were saying, and you understand where I'm coming from, too. . .there are people from every walk of life and every situation who have been compromised by addictive substances, from the sweet little old lady with a bad hip to the gangsta in the alley shooting a speedball.  The bottom line is, the condition does not care who you are, or why you began using what you use. . .leaving that substance behind creates a similar set of physical/mental/emotional issues to be dealt with regardless.  It's all about the biology, baby.

Peace,

Kurt

[Kurt Cobain]

Your post sounds an awful lot like how my wife used to look at me when I was on the junk. . .you have my prayers.  As lame as it may sound to you now, as long as he's still alive, there's still hope.  If I'm still here after all the **** that I pulled on my body, I would never give up hope on anyone.

God must love addicts, dandelions, and cockroaches. . .because He made so damn many of them and they're so friggin' hard to kill.  :)

Peace,

Kurt

[Thomas050]

Tracer,
no prob! You made mine with that post :)
Seriously, would you mind if I referred others to what you wrote? I attend a few other substance abuse forums and again, that was very inspirational.

Kind regards,
Thomas

PS/ BTW, I am on the east coast but I lived in TX for a bit, near the beach, fist time I ever saw a pelican!!!! (other than in a cartoon :)

[tracer3]

I'd be honored, and thanks for the thought. Sorry you're not in our beautiful state anymore. By the way, what forums are you on? I've got a friend going through this now who I'm trying to refer to some places.

[Thomas050]

Hi,
Thanks :)

I used to frequent the one on About.com http://alcoholism.about.com/index.htm?terms=substance+abuse

But lately I have been on the SoberRecovery.com forums. There are so many forums there, it keeps me busy enough ;) Like here, the people there are really great. I have actually referred some of the die hard opiate cases to this board, as there seems to be a bit more experience with that here (and having the doc is great too:)

Hope that helps.
OK, I am off to get some Z's.

Kind regards,
Thomas

[AlexisInTx]

Just wanted to do a quick check in.  It's been a VERY unpleasant last 2 days.  I swtiched from codeine to lowest dose bup (two .02 sublingual daily and going down).  I so freaking badly want to to just give it all up, but kids are out of school, my husband has been freakishly weird and won't stop talking about what I "Need to do".  I know what I need to do, but every time I open my mouth to let him know how I feel (I mean EVERY time), he interrupts me with some story about getting involved with the fire ant kingdom in the back yard to get my mind off of this ****.  Yes, I think I will explore the 98 degree heat with back pain so bad I'm in a fetal position to go and look at those miraculous ants.  I hear they are the cure-all.

Sorry, do not mean to be down, but how much can one really take before you just feel as if you've tried to get off of this stuff so many times that it becomes so hard that it's hard to think of recovery?  I called 8 listings in the phone book this evening about substance abuse counseling, and they were all so curt and a couple people hung up on me.  One NA guy was very helpful, so I'm going to go to a meeting on Thursday of next week @ 8:00 p.m.  My dh even said, 'oh a guy, huh??"  Geesh.

Dh did say some stuff that although I had already felt strongly, he said that these pills were taking the load off of my life.  When I get quit taking them, I'm left to carry the load AND that which I hadn't carried before when I was taking the pills.  The more we take, the more of a load we'll have to carry once we decide to come off of these things.  That's exactly how it's been working with me.  I have royally screwed stuff up in my life, and only I can repair it.  So now is the time I start the clean up.  Geesh, how hard it is.  But there's no other way.

I can attest to the fact that the more you go through w/d, the harder they get, so it's best to nip it in the bud NOW.  This is almost unbearable.  The depression, the back pain I'm experiencing, the bone pain, the complete fatigue, etc. - I'm not trying to elicit any sympathy, really the contrary because I have dug this hole ALL BY MYSELF when I could have stopped it in its' tracks 2 years ago.  It's just the physical/emotional manifestations that occur when you (me!) continuously put yourself in the position of constant relapse.  

Man, I have a lot of respect for all of you who are doing this.  You should be really proud of your accomplishments.  And you'll come out the other side stronger.

Alexis

[mrmichael67]

I don't know why you would think I was confused.  She said that we are all told that opiate abuse does not harm the body.  I honestly have never heard that.  And you are right, she is a big girl.

[momonhydros]

great post, thanks alot you made my day. great name too! :)have a good one! nancy

[Thomas050]

I know a little about the w/d myself, very unpleasant to say the least. Unreal actually. However, i can't imagine them not getting better as the weeks go by, I think that's a law of physiology actually. Drag yourself this tough part, you can do it! Having your independence back is worth it!
Also, you know as much as I do, how much hearing the stories of those that have been thru it and made it help those trying to get thru it. You'll be that inspiration to someone :)

Keep the chin kid o!
Best,
Thomas

[Susie B]

Since you've been thru this,can you give me some advise on how to help my husband thru this dark time. Do I leave him alone with his depression and total lack of interest in life(he would like me to) or do I nudge, push and drag him back to the light. Neither way seems to be very successful so far. Glad you're doing so well-your wife must be a very patient lady.

[mrmichael67]

It is absolutely wonderful for you to be there for your husband.  Many have to go through it completely alone.  For the time being, if he wants to be alone, I would go along with it.  I know how I felt and I certainly didn't want anyone to see me like that.  I just felt better if I was in my room and just doing my own thing.  Well, I guess I could say I felt more comfortable.

[pammy0690]

You should nudge him in a kind and caring way.  Let him know that if he gets up and moves around he will feel alot better.  It may not seem that way at first but he will notice the difference even a little physical activity will improve his outlook and sleep.  Even going for a ride in the car to go get ice cream may help.  Make sure he is drinking a lot of fluids and eating a little.  This makes a huge difference!  Good luck!  PAmmy

[mrmichael67]

I just went up and saw that your husband is on day 16 now?  I would say nudge him as well.  I was thinking he was in the major withdrawal stage.  Pammy is right.  The more he gets out and does things, the better he will do.  Also, if he excersizes, his body will produce some of those lovely endorphins that are so needed.  And, that will help make him feel better.  But, like she said, nudge gently.

[Susie B]

Thankyou both for the feedback. I just called him, told him to get his bunns in the shower then put on some clean clothes, the Ice Cream Shop awaits. He thinks I've lost my mind, but says OK. I'm on a mission.

[tracer3]

Hope you're feeling a bit better today. Remember that each day, even as you're suffering through it, is one more day that you are past the drugs, and one more day you will have to repeat if you start using again. Things WILL get better, but it takes that old standard, time. Distraction does help, because we tend to obsess, but try to distract with something that interests you (reading is what I do) instead of, say, ant piles :) I promise that it does get easier, but it took time to screw yourself up this bad and it will take time to get better. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and pretty soon you will have taken a lot of steps away from the drugs. I've done that for over a year, and while I still get cravings they are manageable and physically I am fine - and have been for a good long time now. You will feel like you are being tested every single day for a while, with pain, depression, fatigue - but you will have to go through it all sometime so you might as well keep moving forward now. Suck it up, as harsh as that sounds, and do everything you can to make it easier on yourself other than take drugs. The 5HTP and the l-tyrosone help a lot, but mainly it just takes time. Each week will be better than the last. Hang in there. I know this heat sucks, too, as I'm suffering with you in Texas. Just remember that many have been through what you are suffering so it is doable and you will be stronger for having done it once you get there. My thoughts are with you.

[Kurt Cobain]

Well, it *is* true that the more your husband "gets up and does" to get involved in life, the better he will begin feeling. . .but the art of "nudging" can be a very slick highway.  I know from personal experience that when my wife would express her concern for me by "nudging", I definitely felt, deep down, very touched that she still cared for me.  So, in that way, it was a Good Thing.

But. . .as you undoubtedly know by now, being the loved one of an addict is not just a double-, but a triple-, quadruple-, or even more-edged sword.  When I felt her concern, that early on in my WD, my responses could be (and usually were) wildly unpredictable (to her, certainly, and to me as well).  As a reaction to her expressions of concern, or "nudges", I might, at any time: a) know that she cared and be moved to tears, feeling so much love for her, b) know that she cared but my own physical/emotional/spiritual misery was such that I barely acknowledged her gestures, c)even though I KNEW that she cared, would strike back and rip her head off.  There were other variations and degrees of response from me, but these seemed to be the primary ones.  You can't imagine the frustration when you KNOW someone means you well, and is going out of their way, in fact, to give you more than you feel you deserve. . .and the best you can do for them is dissolve into a puddle of tears and feel weak and humiliated, while the worst is even more reprehensible -- swatting them away even as they reach out to you.  Even the apathetic responses made me feel guilty that I wasn't reacting to her (seemingly to me) heroic efforts to reach out to me.

It's part biology/biochemistry (as our entire system re-adjusts to "business as usual" without narcotic input).  In early recovery, I felt wildly volatile and out of control emotionally.  This, of course, is absolutely normal (see one of my rants about PAWS, or Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, for details), and I was fortunate enough to at least be aware of what was going on inside of me.  Still, every time I fell short -- that is, didn't react as positively as I thought I should have to one of my wife's "nudges" of concern -- it blew my already house-of-cards-like self-esteem to pieces.  What an incredibly awful disease this is. . .it seems that, at every point in recovery, there is some greatly intimidating obstacle to overcome.  Nowhere is this more evident (at least to me) than in the delicate early stage of recovery your husband is experiencing. . .it seems that the more he wants to do the "right thing" (that is, get clean from the junk), the more physically, mentally, and emotionally punished he will be.  Recovery would be ridiculously easy if it felt as good to us as getting high used to feel. . .or even if it just didn't feel so friggin' awful.  There are times your husband WILL feel that high, without the junk, if he makes it through.  Simple things like taking a walk with you, maybe doing the dishes when he isn't asked, just being silly watching a movie or something. . .there ARE moments that make sobriety feel like being high, only better.  It just sounds like so much bullshit when you're two weeks off and still feel like Lazarus just out of the grave, however.

In all good conscience, I have to add that the way you present the "nudge" can also be very important as regards the reaction you will get.  "Buns in the shower to go get ice cream" is good, probably would have worked on me, too. . .  :)  Of course, on the other side of the coin, you may present something in a completely appropriate and loving way and STILL either just be ignored or have your head ripped off.  In that way, I guess you (the addict's loved ones) are just as frustrated as we (the addicts) are, just in very different ways.  It's taken me quite some time to be able to appreciate just how much suffering I put my wife and family though due to this disease. . .the earlier on in my recovery I was, the harder it was to look at the awful things I had done and own up to them without feeling like a complete waste of life (and thus being led back towards the drugs).  Wallowing in the past is bad, very bad. . .but forgetting the pain altogether is even more dangerous.  It's a fine line for all of us involved. . .addicts and non-addicts alike.

It sounds like your man has a great treasure in you. . .never forget that.  Don't neglect your own needs at this time -- explore recovery groups for spouses of the addicted (there are several quite active out there, and I'm sure you have heard of some of them).  I won't sit here and tell you it will definitely get better, no matter what. . .but each day he goes without the junk is a day he is closer to being himself. . .and to being the person you know he is, the person you love.

Peace,

Kurt

[Susie B]

All the things you said are things my husband would say to me if he were here right now instead of this sad lost soul I find myself sharing my house with these days. I miss him so much. Your thoughts are so very true. He's put up an emotional wall, and I think when I try to break it down he just pushes me further away.(my grand idea of a trip for ice cream ended up a total disaster) Thankyou so very much for sharing,I guess I just have to wait for a better day.

[vikequeen]

Twice I too was on that days after clean natural high and feeling good, it lasted aprox 36 days til my relapse, the good feeling does not last, mentally at least. I was no happier off pills than on them so thats the thinking that made me use again after 36 days clean. Life sucks!!!! I should have went to my IOP Baddgirl

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

Good Morning everyone--I'm hanging in there at 38 days--This is the longest I have gone without a hydrocodone in years--I must tell you that I have become somewhat disheartened after reading Kurt Cobain's post about post acute withdrawal syndrome--It seems I might be struggling for up to two years?--I looked up (PAWS) on the Web and read a 3 page article going into detail about what it is, how long it lasts, ect.--then I realized this sight happened to be sponsored by a "Recovery Center" espousing the wonders of 12 step treatment programs--I then think to myself--It seems the medical community is hell bent on keeping us "sick" and wallowing in our own misery---Especially when I know for a fact that "Addiction" is BIG Business!--They never seem to want us to get over it and move on!  It reminds me of the psychiatrist I spoke to over the phone--The minute he found out my husband is a physician, he wanted me to be placed in an "in-patient Recovery Center."  He refused to even entertain the idea of alternative recovery modalities--It was the 12-step waltz or nothing. To be quite honest I cannot fathom spending my life in endless meetings recanting my personal horror with hydrocodone.  I do believe that it does take time for our bodies to heal after all the abuse that they have endured--But come on? 2 years?--Jack Trimpey's Rational Recovery has gotten me this far.  There is something refreshing about an addict taking responsibility for his/her addiction and recovery.  WE DO HAVE THE POWER TO OVERCOME THIS!--Anyway, I just had to get that off my chest--Thanks for listening and letting me vent-N.O. Lady/ Mystere

Anne

P.S. Please this post was not meant to ruffle the feathers of any 12 step devotees.  I am actually for whatever works and keeps us clean and sober!--I have just had a real problem with that powerlessness thing"

[gracie97]

Lady (anne), I could could not have expressed this "feeling"/belief/philosophy better than you have!!!!!!!!!!!
I do believe I have a degree of power over this-I KNOW I do , if I did not that pill I found would have been in my mouth instead of the toilet! I SWEAR that things get better day by day, the longer you try, the easier it gets. I am now remembering EXACT conversations from a year ago. 2 weeks ago I never thought the fog would lift. We just have to hang in there and LEARN to live differently-pill free. We did NOT become addicted/abusers overnight, so the recovery does not happen after 5-7 days of WT. BUT-it does come, slowly. I truly believe it can only get better now that "they" are FINALLY out of my life! FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Christina

[Expillman]

I've started and restarted this message SEVERAL times and I will try to spare the life story or justification/rationalzation for my usage of prescription drugs.  I am in hour 74 of withdrawal and it has been AWFUL.  I will never give back these days, NEVER.  Withdrawal, to me, is a POWERFUL deterrant to ever using again.  I have everything to live for, I'm retired, I have money, and I am not going to be a slave to anything, religion, financial problems or PILLS!

*I am a former Health Care Professional.  I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER, but it can happen to anyone.*

I could not have typed this message two days ago.  I took my last pill Monday and the ensuing withdrawal EXCEEDED all expectations.  Luckily, I live alone and do not work, so I could crawl around in my misery without having anyone witness the pathetic spectacle.  I will spare you the details, but I am not proud, only proud that I have quit.  

Here are some suggestions.
1.   Imodium (immodium). OTC  2 tablets when the cramps and diarrhea starts and one tab every 2 hours afterward until cramping stops.  I know that this exceeds the recommended dosage, but it didn't kill me and it sure helped.  I just wish that I had started this the first day.

2.  Benedryl OTC and/or Phenegran suppositories RX if you have them or can get them.  Both are antihistimine, so keep that in mind.  If you can control your diarrhea, both will help the nausea and help you sleep (HAH!), although fitfully.

3.  Hydration and nutrition.  Gatorade and you must eat. Drink plenty of water and if you get heartburn, put 1/2 teaspoon of plain Arm & Hammer baking soda in your water.  This will help sweeten your system.   I know, I know, you won't feel like eating, this is the last thing you want to do, but you must eat.

4.  Spirulina Dietary Supplement from Earthrise.  This is superfood and will help you.  Start taking it before you quit the pill and continue through withdrawal.  Take at least 7 tablets a day.  Choke them down, you will not be sorry.  Iherb online has the best prices, FYI.  No, I don't work for them.

5.  Hot jacuzzi baths will help the aches and help you get a little sleep.  I literally crawled from the tub to the bed the first couple of days.

6.  Exercise. I know, this is the second LAST thing you want to do, but only if it is just walking laps around the house and up the stairs, do it!  If you stay in bed for a week you will only feel worse.

It has taken every bit of energy to write this.   I only hope it helps someone.  Each hour I am closer....wish me luck.

[gracie97]

Keep it up, you are on your way! You can make it, right now is the worst part! It gets better, I promise,energy and the desire to "enjoy" life comes back, it is a slow process, but 4 days from now, you will see how far you have come. Sounds to me like you are already seeing your own progress after 3 days! Keep posting, everyone here TRULY cares about you!

[peaz]

Hey chickies:  Don't get disheartened by everything you read......everyone is different and we will handle detox and recovery in out own manner.  True, there are GENERAL guidelines and experiences, but don't accept all that you read as GOSPEL.  I am serious when I say this:  if what you are reading is going to impair your recovery and perhaps prompt a relapse, than QUIT READING for awhile until you're stronger mentally!!  Don't tempt the addiction gods!!LOL  I am glad to hear from both of you---Take care Dolls--Peazy

  PS  The Frey book is AWESOME!!! He and I think SO much alike about the downfalls of AA and how we manage our recovery.......I heard he was just on the Today show and I missed him, dammit!!  I will try and post more tomorrow about some of my thoughts on his drama.

[MrGlass]

Wow, there is a lot of good info here for me to try... I have been primarily on oxycodone / hydrocodone (or what ever other pain med I can get) for about a year since my orchiectomy... thanks to the dr I found that pain killers have an awesome side effect, they make me feel good, happy and caring (unlike my normal introverted pissing and moaning **** head).  I now realize that I am taking them only because I can't stop and they are starting to cost a lot (I have been getting them from one of those online pharamacys).  I did not know anything about withdrawl of these and since I have been trying to get off these now for a few weeks I have noticed that I am always friggen cold my neck and back are so sore that I can barely move them at times, I think I am getting stupider and I cant stop crapping my brains out and the only thing that seems to help is taking something. So I have been trying to decrease my intake of pills and taking them at regular times (now 3 times / day hopefully by next week 2).  My hope was that my body will get less and less dependant until withdrawl is easier (yes I guess I am a pu55y), does this sound stupid?  I will definately try some of the suggestions I have seen here especially excercise since the few times I have actually done something physical I have felt better (which is not often since I am a computer programmer a real geek who likes to hide either in his office at work or in his dark room punching code)
can anyone comment on how to deal with the depression that will obviously start to come back upon getting off these things (drug free hopefully)?

[Expillman]

Thank you.  This has been a harrowing, bitterly painful week.  It is now 3:30 AYE EMMMM.  [Anyone else been awake at 3?] and I am typing away with my coffee at my side.  I am a powerful person, but Oxycontin brought me to my knees, and not in the praying sense and I don't like it at all.  I am furious that I allowed myself to get into this situation and it will NEVER happen again.  

One word about depression.  There are many remedies, but some of those have awful withdrawal syndromes too, mainly Paxil.  There is a natural anti-depressant, St. John's Wort, but I don't recommend it.  It can have an awful drug interaction with caffeine or decongestant.  It will make you feel like you are in opiate withdrawal!  Enough said, eh?  Gosh, I don't know how I am doing this, but here I am, in HOUR 90 of withdrawal  COLD TURKEY Oxycontin 240-300 mg. per day.  I will never forget and never give these days back.

[Expillman]

I am in HOUR 90 of FREEDOM from Oxycontin.  Yesterday, I got out of the house for the first time this week.  Imagine....A former Professional, public speaker, high-powered type individual, approaching a 1/2 mile trip to Walgreens like it was scaling Mt. Everest.  My motivation?  My poor birds, landing on their feeder outside, not understaning about Oxycontin and drug withdrawal, wondering why their seed suddenly disappeared.  Oh, I also needed some milk to pour over my HoneyNut Cheerios.  

The trip went off without a hitch, but the world outside took on a surreal quality.  It was blazing hot, but I was freezing and I had to wear a light jacket, sunglasses and a baseball cap.  I made my meager purchases and hoped I could find my car [it was parked directly outside] and make my way back to the safety of my house.  

Oh, I did score my bird feed, a major success story!  This is good therapy, I will continue to post.  I would love to hear from anyone who has had experience with what I am going through.

[Expillman]

I am now approaching HOUR 92 of Oxycontin Freedom.  I just took a short nap and now, for the first time since Monday, the physical withdrawal symptoms seem to be dissipating away.  I am elated!  I am giddy!  I am high!  I did my exercises this morning with a smile on my face.  For the first time this week....I know that I am NOT going to die!  For the first time this week.......the POWER is returning to ME!  For the first time this week.....I woke up with an erection [Humor me, I'm FIFTY FIVE!].  

I know there will be setbacks.  Right now I actually fee almost good, but I realize that this is only temporary, but *I'll* take it!  

P.S.  My birds are happier too