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Damage to other organs due to excessive opiate abuse?
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Damage to other organs due to excessive opiate abuse?

This question is for the Doctor.  What damage can be done to other organs, besides the liver, from long term opiate abuse?  Are there any warning signs that we are doing damage and need to stop immediately?
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For those who took me up on my challenge - guess what?

Week three is complete, with one more to go!

Everyone needs to be especially tough during the next week when the stress will be high, and the temptation strong.

What a "New" year it will be.

Way to go everyone!!!!

Rex
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REX-YOU HAVE BEEN SUCH AN INSPIRATION TO ME-I HAD TO GO COLD TURKEY 7 DAYS AGO AND SO FAR SO GOOD THANKS TO THE THOMAS RECIPE AND THE POSTS ON THIS FORUM--AS FAR AS DAMAGE DUE TO THE OPIATES--I THINK MORE HARM IS DONE BY THE ACETAMINOPHEN--I WAS TO THE POINT MY ANKLES AND LEGS WERE SWELLING SO BAD I KNEW IN MY HEART THAT MY LIVER COULD NOT KEEP UP WITH MY EXCESSIVE INGESTION. NOW THANK GOD THEY ARE BACK TO NORMAL. I HOPE AND PRAY EVERYONE COMPLETES THE TAPER CHALLENGE--I HAD TO GO COLD TURKEY--I DID NOT POSESS THE DISCIPLINE TO TAPER--IT WAS ALWAYS AFTER THIS NEXT RX I WILL TAPER.  MY HOPES AND PRAYERS ARE WITH YOU ALL--TO A NEW YEAR AND A NEW LIFE--LOVE AND PEACE-N.O. LADY
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Hey ReX!
How is everything? I have 9 days opiate/drug/alcohol free today! Every day that passes gives me a little bit of myself and my life back. I hope everyone receives the same christmas/ New Year miracle that I was givin. Freedom from the opiate madness. I cannot thank everyone here enough for thier support and stories which are a true help.
thank you
flash
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WEll as you may remember i relapsed but i have to do it cold turkey starting this Thursday after christmas.  So..Pray fo r me a cuz this will be it!  No more stadol left after that!
thanks and Merry Christmas to all!
Suzie
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Supposedly, opiates don't overload and poison organs like tylenol does. However, they seem to cause some real problems that may be just as bad. Chronic constipation is a killer, and can cause all kinds of disease, including colon cancer. when you are constipated, I have read that you don't metabolise most of the vitamins and nutrients that you consume. I know that I had all kinds of health issues when was on Oxycontin (granted, I was taking many times more the amount than anyone, even a terminal patient, would be prescribed). But my leg would fall asleep, and I had skin problems, including some benign growths that I had to have removed. I am normally very healthy with very few health problems. My system was overloaded by the opiates, and couldn't process much or cleanse itself. Long term, this is a real health risk and I believe that it can indirectly lead to any number of health / organ problems.

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N.O. Lady - way to go!

Suzie - Just enjoy Christmas, don't worry about the set back. You'll do it!

teeitup!
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THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE SUPPORT--IT IS UNBELIEVEABLE HOW MUCH IT MEANS ESPECIALLY AT THIS POINT IN MY WITHDRAWAL/BEGINNING RECOVERY. I'M STILL DEALING WITH THE MALAISE THAT SEEMS TO HIT AT THE MOST INAPPROPRIATE TIME--ALTHOUGH I DO THINK THE L-TYROSINE IS HELPING. JUST BEING ABLE TO COME TO THIS SIGHT HAS GOTTEN ME THROUGH THE LAST 7 DAYS--ALSO THERE SEEMS TO BE GREATER FORCE AT WORK HERE AND I'M NOT A PARTICULARLY RELIGIOUS PERSON--I WILL TELL YOU IT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A MIRACLE--MUCH PEACE AND ESPECIALLY HOPE AND LOVE TO EVERYONE--YOU ARE ALL A GODSEND!
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I don't know which of the painkillers have tylenol and which ones don't .... except the obvious like tylenol3. Also, which ones have alot of tylenol and the ones with just a little. If anyone can post a website on this or help me out. If I need to take any .... I want to use as little tylenol as possible. Thanks .. (notice I said IF ...) I am so grateful for all the testimonials here ... now if I just had the guts and a place to hide for 2 weeks. Can a person use plain tylenol or motrin during withdrawal? It has to do something ... especially in therapudic doses ... any information is appreciated.
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Since our doc here is not an MD anyway, I can tell you what I've learned studying the latest literature -- at least the latest to be translated for laymen. The liver is principally affected by the additives in pain pills -- chiefly, tylenol. But I'm sure you knew that.

The other organ damaged by long-term opiate use is, unfortunately, the brain. Over time, the brain physically changes to adapt to the constant presence of opiates. When the opiates are withdrawn, the brain cannot function normally. This is why so many of us frequently say we are using simply to feel normal. Non-users think we're using the word normal instead of high. But the latest research tells us we are more correct that we could ever know. Researchers compare the brains of long-term opiate addicts to that of stroke victims. Without the continued use of opiates, the long-term addict must struggle as a stroke victim struggles to utilize new neural pathways to achieve a semblance of normality.

I have used opiates contantly for 30, no, 31 years. There is no way back for me. 31 years of changes in my brain cannot be undone by all the 12-step meetings in the world. My doom is sealed by my physiology. That is why, as much as I don't like the idea, I am applying for methadone maintenance. Detox for me is a waste of time. I've detoxed myself 50 times and, each time, there I sit, with a brain that can no longer function without opiates. Time does not heal all things.

I tell this story, probably too often, because for many on this forum, the way back is still open. From the point at which one begins recovery, the great dramas and opportunities of life expand in all directions to infinity. Don't throw away your chance to play a role in the world as I have.

Thomas
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Hello,

I'm planning on going into an inpatient detox soon for a 2 year 80 mg Oxy/100 mg hydro habit. I'm told I'll be on Buprenex, clonidine and maybe librium. I've heard several references to the Thomas recipe and pieces of it but don't know exactley what it is. Can someone tell me where to find it or what it is?  Also, is this something I can do while I'm still inpatient or begin once I'm out.  I'm looking for all the help I can get.  
Thanks for any help and encouragement.


movingon
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MOST AND I DO MEAN MOST OF THE HYDROCODONE PREPARATIONS CONTAIN SOME AMOUNT OF ACETAMINOPHEN (TYLENOL)--ALTHOUGH THE AMOUNTS CAN VARY CONSIDERABLY--MY DRUG OF CHOICE WAS CALLED ZYDONE10/400 WHICH MEANS IT CONTAIN 10MGS OF HYDROCODONE AND 400 MGS OF TYLENOL--THIS IS CONSIDERED A SMALL DOSE--BECAUSE FOR EXAMPLE VICODEN E.S. CONTAINS 750 MG. OF TYLENOL PER PILL--VICODEN,LORTAB,LORCET,PERCOCET,TYLOX THESE ALL HAVE SOME AMOUNT OF TYLENOL--THERE ARE MEDS THAT DO NOT CONTAIN TYLENOL--OXYCONTIN-DEMERAL--PERCODAN (CONTAINS ASPIRIN)--I HOPE THIS INFO WILL BE OF SOME HELP--FOR ME THEY ARE ALL DEADLY--WHEN I THINK BACK AT HOW MUCH I CONSUMED IT IS A MIRACLE I STILL HAVE A LIVER. LOVE PEACE AND TO A NEW YEAR NEW LIFE-- N.O. LADY
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There are many different strengths of tylenol and other additives in some pain meds. Just to name a few Vicodin 5/500 means it has 5mg hydrocodone and 500mg tylenol. There are also different names, lortab, vicodin, norco etc all hydrocodone with different brand names. Vicodin Es has 5/750 , lortab comes in 5/500 and 5/750, norco is the best at 10/325. Percocet comes in 5/325, 7.5/325 and 10/325. There is Oxy ir which is percocet with no tylenol. Oxycontin ahs no tylenol and I am on oxyfast which is liquid percocet with no tylenol. I think these are the most common pain meds used. Tylenol is a dangerous drug and sadly MANY people don't know it. I had a friend who recently took 25 lortab 5/750 2 days in a row. She almost lost her life, her eyes were the color of the yellow on the phone book, her scalp was orange and she was in and out of coma. She has a damaged liver but luckily is alive to talk about it. Even after that happening just several weeks ago she struggles to stay clean. Tylenol aka acetominophen can cause liver failue and death. You just never know when you are going to hit that lethal dose as it goes by weight so it is different for everybody. Tylenol extra strength 500mg warns not to take more than 8 in a day which is 4 grams. I have heard an estimate that 7.5 grams can lead to overdose in an average weight person. I know that rarely overdoses happen under 10grams and lethally most around 15 grams. this is in a 24 hour period. This is what I have read and discussed with my own Dr but again if you are very thin it may take much less. Also long term regular use under these amounts is now found to cause some liver damage so if you take it everyday even in small amounts you are at risk. I know that my liver enzymes get elevated when I am taking pain meds with tylenol because I have had them checked when I have been worried. Also the thing with tylenol overdose there is an antidote but it must be given with in hours of the overdose and usually a tylenol overdose doesn't even show symptoms for a couple days at which point the damage has already been done. Anyway this is what I have learned and I have to tell you it has always scared the hell out of me. If Dr's are going to prescribe pain meds for an extended period they should really use the ones with no tylenol. sadly alot of addicts go to many Dr's who don't know what we are doing and don't realize we are taking so many from so many Dr's so they use pain meds with high amounts of tylenol.

Jen
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Thomas,
Read your post. I really don't know what to say except, for one thanks for the recipe and your honessty. I am fairly sure you are that Thomas. If not this still applies. As for your post, it is the most hardcore appraisal of long term opiate use I have ever read. Thanks for who you are, what you do for people on this board and what you have done for me.  I am on day 16, still getting interupted sleep, 3 o4 hrs, then up all day.  I am starting to go for walks at 5 in the morning and working out a little bit each day.  I do hit one NA meeting a day.  That is my life, no energy for my wife and kids.  Major guilt and shame. By 10am I am exhausted and fatigue.  Can't sleep. so I spend alot of time on the board. I have read many of your posts.

I know in the next few weeks ,months my strength will return as long as I don;t pick up. Drugs have done a lot of damage to me personslly snd physically.  I am 44 and my body cannot handle the abuse.  7 years clean in NA then stopped the program and quiting for 60 or 90 days before relapsing for the last five years have probably saved me from the fate you are facing.  A man's got to do what a man's got to do.  You have helped more people than you will ever know, so if methadone maintence will work for you.  God Bless you, but please keep posting here.  Your unique way of conveying hope to the suffering is needed.  With your permission I would like to print your post and put on my wall next to my computer to remind me of what could very easily be me if I choose to use.  I will also pray for another way for you and if it is not to be I will pray you live long and prosper.
Strength and Honor
Greg
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you seem to still have a true gift for writeing,
you wrot a few paragraphs last month about the maraposa
aituation, i must say they were the most elequent i have
ever read in the year i have been here.
you receipe as you know has help me and others,
im sure you will reap positve thing because of
your contrabution of the receipe.
please excuse my poor speelling, it is one of my
weaker points, i m just a contruction worker
who loves to read. i also love being clean.

peace. and thanks agian.
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I'd like to tell you that there is a way back, that given enough time and work you can have a relatively healthy mind again, but I don't have that kind of long term experience you do on the stuff, so I can't.

I have used for maybe 5-6 years steadily in my life. It's been 7-1/2 months since my last opiate, and I know I am not all the way back. I still struggle with articulating verbally. I often can't dredge up the word I want to say in a conversation. I feel words and ideas on the tip of my tongue, but cannot get them out gracefully. It has gotten much much better. I still don't sleep well. My mind is simply not very crisp. I pick up a book I was reading the night before, and can't remember the storyline like I should.

I have to believe that I haven't damaged myself beyond repair, haven't lost the ability to produce at a high level. I have to trust it will continue to return, or I may give way to despair, and use again. And I just can't use opiates. I get so damn obsessed with them, they rule everything, and I can never take enough. I need to get higher and higher and higher, and end up on ridiculously irresponsible doses.

Anyway, thanks for the honesty. I know we've had major differences here before, but I was really touched by your post.


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Help me from relapsing.

My back hurts so badly today, my whole body aches. The vikes are calling my name guys........

Rex
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Thank you for your eloquent and incisive reply. I truly believe that it is empathetic (and even not so empathetic) contact with fellow addicts on this and other forums that keeps me from a life on the streets, bereft of family, job, home and hope. You're correct; I am most humbly the Thomas of the recipe, which benefited not only from my own limitless opportunities to refine self-detox methods, but also from many, many addicts from all over the world who selflessly contributed their own knowledge and experience.

Of course, you may reprint my original post and use it in any way that suits you.

Just don't waste any pity on the likes of me. I fell in love with opiates the first time I used them and have pursued this affair with a ruthlessness that would impress the ghosts of Hitler and Stalin. I have become what I am by my own hand. That I did it for love only suggests that I may have a genetic predisposition for opiate addiction, or some psychological defect that only opiates can correct. After 3 decades, I still don't really know ...

But addiction or no, there is much joy in my life. As I write this, I'm listening to Beethoven's miraculous transition from the second movement to the scherzo of his 5th piano concerto. Gloria, in Excelsius Deo! Take care and best of luck in your own struggle.

Thomas


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Hot baths, Rex, with a valium chaser. My best shot, sorry.

Thomas
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You have come too far sweetie! nobody said it was going to be easy and you know that. I know many people who suffer with terrible pain yet they never pick up a narcotic. Our problem is that we think narcotics fix everything. Narcotics are for acute horrible pain like that after major surgery. If you have a back ache today and I know you do. I also have major back problems. Do everything you can. Tell the world to screw off if they ask anything from you today and get in the tub, put a heating pad or bag of frozen veggies on your back which ever works best. Rent a great movie and lay in bed and watch it, help get your mind off of it. Take something for inflamation (inflammation) like 800mg of ibuprofen, fact is it actually works better alot of times for back pain because it reduces inflamation (inflammation) and inflamation (inflammation) is usually the part of the back problem causing most of the pain. Most people in this world do not even think to take a vicodin if their back is hurting bad for a day or few. You have said your back was bearable lately so if this is your first really bad day don't turn to drugs. I can see it getting harder if say this back ache continues for weeks but for today do everything else but don't take a narcotic. We reach for them too quickly for all reasons because that is what we do, most people do not.You know you have messed up your body's own endorphins for pain. They quit working because you replaced them with opiates for so long. The only chance you have for your body to heal and one day work again on it's own for pain is to stay away from opiates. Do you know depending on how long and how much you use that can take 6-18 months? We abused our bodies and because of that we must suffer with pain until we beat this. Most of us started on these meds because of pain and so most of us will have the same issue you are having today. but we must do other things for the pain like the rest of the world does. I am sorry if I sound harsh and I have no business telling you this when I took 10 percocet an hour ago but I care about you, ALOT!!! You will always have this problem until you get you back fixed which may be impossible so how are you going to deal with it? You better see a good Dr and get a plan before you set youself up to fail my friend. I am signing off right now and saying a prayer for you. Please don't do it. Your spirit is going to hurt if you do, you have worked so hard and put too much into this to give up over the first BAD backache but if you do I want to hear about it fast so that we can help you forgive yourself immediately so you don't use one relapse for pain as an excuse to say "screw it I messed up I might as well just do more now". So either way please let me know what you decided! I am very sorry your back hurts, a Couple months ago when I was clean I made it through a pulled tooth and dry socket without anything because I made myself. I knwo you can make yourself too. I have SO MUCH faith in you!
Love, Jen
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Forgot to add something ... it sounds like you're experiencing the typical post-opiate withdrawal malaise. As bad as acute opiate withdrawal is, I find that the crushing lack of mental and physical energy causes more relapses than anything else. But there is a solution for most recovering addicts. Obviously, at this point, you don't need to use most of the recipe, but it sounds like you're ready for some L-Tyrosine. It's an amino acid available in any nutritional supply store that frequently brings recovering junkies back from the dead. It's cheap, safe and a naturally occuring substance we get in our diet every day. Spend 8 bucks and get 50 of the 500mg caps plus a bottle of B6. Upon rising, take, for starters, 1000 to 1500mgs of L-Tyrosine with a B6 to help absorption. Take it on an empty stomach. You don't need to take it other than first thing in the morning. The effect will last all day. L-Tyrosine stimulates the production of adrenalin which indirectly stimulates that part of the brain that produces the vital neurotransmitters that opiate use (or coke or speed) depletes. This lack of dopamine, norepinephrin and to a smaller extent, serotonin is why you feel the way you do. Don't drink caffeine with it. Believe me, if you take the dose right for you, you won't need any other stimulants. Besides a dramatic boost in energy, you'll experience a renewed mental clarity and relief from depression. You can take up to 4000mgs in the morning, but I recommend you try a much smaller dose and adjust up or down to suit you. If it gives you the jitters, lower the dose. Some also experience a fairly benign and short-lived diahrea in the first hour. This can also be regluated by lowering the dose.

Thomas
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No. Don't use the recipe. With the bup, clonidine and Librium, you're getting probably the best detox money can buy. However, almost every recovering opiate addict, once home from the detox ward, experiences a post-withdrawal malaise, a total lack of mental and physical energy combined with intermittent depression. Once you're home from the detox, and if it doesn't conflict with any continuing therapy from your doctor, try the recipe's L-Tyrosine "pick me up." I just posted the info to saveyourself, so, if you don't mind, I'll just cut and paste the same copy here. Good luck.

As bad as acute opiate withdrawal is, I find that the crushing lack of mental and physical energy causes more relapses than anything else. But there is a solution for most recovering addicts. Obviously, at this point, you don't need to use most of the recipe, but it sounds like you're ready for some L-Tyrosine. It's an amino acid available in any nutritional supply store that frequently brings recovering junkies back from the dead. It's cheap, safe and a naturally occuring substance we get in our diet every day. Spend 8 bucks and get 50 of the 500mg caps plus a bottle of B6. Upon rising, take, for starters, 1000 to 1500mgs of L-Tyrosine with a B6 to help absorption. Take it on an empty stomach. You don't need to take it other than first thing in the morning. The effect will last all day. L-Tyrosine stimulates the production of adrenalin which indirectly stimulates that part of the brain that produces the vital neurotransmitters that opiate use (or coke or speed) depletes. This lack of dopamine, norepinephrin and to a smaller extent, serotonin is why you feel the way you do. Don't drink caffeine with it. Believe me, if you take the dose right for you, you won't need any other stimulants. Besides a dramatic boost in energy, you'll experience a renewed mental clarity and relief from depression. You can take up to 4000mgs in the morning, but I recommend you try a much smaller dose and adjust up or down to suit you. If it gives you the jitters, lower the dose. Some also experience a fairly benign and short-lived diahrea in the first hour. This can also be regluated by lowering the dose.

Thomas
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You're not "just" anything by a long shot, my friend. For the record, I'm not likely to win any spelling bees in the near future, either.

As it happens, writing is my life. When employed, I make my living doing technical writing for software developers. But it's soulless, construction line word processing, a totally joyless exercise in "How the **** do I make a living as a writer." I really want to write in my own voice, as I do here. But the challenge is always how to make it pay.

Don't ever put your writing down. Eloquence is for some a gift and for others a learned skill, but without wisdom and compassion, it's all just pretty gift wrapping. Your posts show both wisdom and compassion, which is why you are so well respected here (and elsewhere). **** the spelling! Keep saying what you think and feel. That is what resonates with me and all the members of this forum.

Thomas  
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"strength and honor ..." I just got it! What an impact that line makes each time it's used in "Gladiator." It really sums up the essence and motivation of Maximus. Great flick!

BTW, you mentioned dealing with shame over your condition. **** shame! Shame never helped anyone or anything. It is shame that will drive you back to using. Shed it like the snake skin that it is. You're a human being, and, as such, are to a lesser or greater degree suseptible to opiate addiction. It's physiology, NOT morality! Besides, my friend, you're facing up to your addiction and the impact it's having on your role as a father with true "stength and honor."

You can be a General in my Legion anytime!

Thomas
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It's funny how much we have in common.

I do technical writing - I am a hippee of sorts!

Both of you guys are helping me more than you'll ever know.

We could probably get the same message without the "****" part -but we take everyone as they are.

Thomas - you ever brought your stuff before God?

Rex
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You saved me tonight sis.

Still clean - 6:30 pm, and so I know I will make it for today!

I knew this was coming. Knew it - planned for it. Told myself no way a million times.

Felt it coming yesterday - the voice said "You can take low doses of meds, it won't lead to anything else."

Went to my Church - Calvary Chapel, into the santcuary, empty of people on a Monday afternoon, except not empty. Prayed a prayer something like " I can't do it, and I don't even want to give it you God. But I am willing to let you come and take it".

He brought me here, and to you guys.

Thanks. Another day sober. Vicodin loses today. God wins. With your help Jen, Thomas, and T, Hippee.

I will do anything to help you if I can....

Rex
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Hey! For some reason, I thought you were a chiropractor, or am I thinking of Bodymechanic?

As for the F word, it's just too juicy and expressive to give up. Sorry.

As for God, with all do respect to your faith, I am not a Christian. In fact, I belong to no organized religion, though I've studied all save Islam (no reason for leaving it out, just haven't gotten to it). I find wisdom in all faiths. In my experience, Christianity appeals to the heart, Hinduism appeals to the intellect, and Buddhism appeals to both. So, if I were to express an inclination toward any one religion, it would be Buddhism.

What really turns me off about some religions - I won't single out any - is the idea engrained and encouraged in believers that they are right about life, the world, the 100-billion galaxy Universe we belong to, space and time, and an afterlife -- and the other 6 billion inhabitants of the Earth are wrong and destined for perdition. This is, on its face, patently ridiculous. It flies in the face of our most basic tenants of reason, humanity and compassion.

I believe the Universe is a single entity, and mankind is simply the developing Universe opening its eyes to behold itself.

Don't get me wrong, the New Testament is full of wisdom, and the King James version is eloquent beyond description.  
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C24,paragraph 4??. Urghhhh. Joking right?
Percs
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Don't understand the comment, bud...

Rex
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Thomas .... if you need maintinence, why methadone? It's kind of extreme isn't it? You can always go on methadone ... why not try
maintinence on that buprenoraphine or even ultram. You know my situation, but I cannot knock ultram. It helped my pain and my brain for 2 years ... I just want a break. I believe in changes. I don't want to get stuck anywhere. But getting back to you ...
please don't despair. Start out with something mild and your brain chemistry can improve with time. Leave room for the unexpected, and remember that our understanding is limited, and God's is infinite. Look for email from me .... the Golden1
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You can always go there .... baby yourself for a day and see what tommorrow will bring. One day at a time my friend .... it's always darkest before the dawn. take the valium and chill .... Goldie
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Thomas,

I am interested in the choice of methadone vs. bup also. First, will you ever come off methadone? My experience is very few do. Thus, you are continuing an opiate, and frankly one not as pleasant IMHO as Vics + you have registered big time with big brother. With the release of bup in the States, would not a bup clinic offer the better alternative? Perhaps I am wrong about the bup being offered - I think it contains naldextrone (sp) which will prevent one from ever using opiates again - again, I am asking. If that is the case, this "new" bup is out for me unless they develop a non opiate pain killer. 14 Advil's a day is as bad as the vic abuse. Nothing relieves my physical pain like the vics. Unfortunately, I have a tendency to abuse them beyond what the pain dictates.

There are success stories of folks who tapered or cold turkey-ed opiates ( many due to your learned recipe) and who lead relatively 'normal' lives now. There is as you so astutely point out, simply no way to avoid the post opiate withdrawal syndrome, but it is not indefinite. The fiddler must be paid, but the note is finite.

I am moving the conversation here, not making judgments or final statements. I am interested in your take on this.

Both your writing and insight continue to inspire. That energy alone would bode well it seems and provide quite an arsenal to fight the dragon once clean, would it not? If you have this inherent 'joi de verve' (sp), even after 31 years, the body can adapt, can it not? The brain, and yours seems shy of pickled at present, is a marvelous instrument.

Addendum, you say the doc here is not really a doc. Is that an opinion or fact? Again, I am trying to establish some things, not attacking your statement.

Regards,
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.... Dr. Thomas Horvath is a pyschologist and not an M.D.; as specified on the home page....and the comment is in reference to the subject question about what organs are damaged with excessive opiate abuse...
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I have read much of the same information.  I am however, more optimisitic.  No doubt, prolonged opiate use has a profound effect on the brain and nervous system. There may be some aspects of the physiology including the emotions that cannot return to a pre opiate state.  In my opinion these are relatively minor. Even stroke victims recover, frequently completely.  The comparison of stroke victims to addicts is an analogy which, is the opinion, of just one person. I believe that a complete healing can and does take place if just given enough time.  Following my 8 years use of high dose methadone I was never the same.  I had persistant fatigue and insomnia that dragged on for years.  But maybe the problem was that I always gave in after about four years.  I could not take it anymore and used again.  Maybe I just needed more time.

I am not sure why you want to go on methadone when buprenorphine is already available and is becoming more widely available.  I have found a way to use buprenex on a regular basis without it costing a fortune.  Comparable to, if not less than the cost of a private methadone clinic.  The best thing about buprenex is that it does not errode the brain receptors the way methadone does. You can feel "normal" and still give your brain the long time it needs to heal completely.  If the entire healing process takes 6 years, so what. This is a small price to pay compared all the other options.

Aside from the more obvious drawbacks of methadone there is the problem of tolerance.  After using it for a year or two you will adjust to your dose and beginning about 11:00 every night you will start to have early withdrawal.  Just one month ago I had applied to a methadone clinic and had gone so far as to set up a time for the first dose.  Fortunately for me I persisted until I found someone who would prescribe buprenorphine.  So far, it has been the best decision I have ever made concerning drugs.

I believe that the methadone in the long run will only make you worse. You should obviously do whatever is best for yourself and that which causes the least harm.  I only hope that you will think it through before making a dicision that is very difficult to change.  

My very best to you our valued friend,


Joseph

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......Rex, the comment comes from reading a very intense thread, where people expose and discuss their vulnerabilities, fears, desperation, etc., and it seems putting a profanity filter on serves a fairly selfish purpose. The word can be most effective at conveying emotion.
Before i made my comment, i thought of what you said in reference to your conversation with Chezz; specifically that "it's nice when you veterans pop in and tell us when were doing things wrong" (or something to that effect). THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH MY COMMENT.
We all have beliefs, likes and dislikes; and in that context, I could re-write your phrase: ""We could probably get the same message without the "Religious" part""...
Respectfully,
Percs No More
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Fair enough....

So how are you doing these days? How many days detoxed?

Rex
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After having the kind of year i've had(with 2nd back surgery, and five deaths...including my mom unexpectedly and one of my best friends murdered), I'm doing very well.....FOCUSSING ON WHAT I HAVE(awesome wife and 2 lit'l ones) and not what i don't have!!!
I'm now in my 5th month off percs; and probably the main reason I continue to post, I need people to know that they can do it also.....and live life with passion and vigor again. I can honestly say, things couldn't be better(excepting of course the above tragedies).
Are you feeling better today??  Great job gutting it out yesterday!!!!
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I appreciate your concern, but I don't think you realize the physiological implications of 31 years of uninterrupted use of hydrocodone, oxycodone, dilaudid, demerol, morphine, propoxyphene, codeine -- and I'm not talking about "as prescribed usage; I'm talking about dosages that would kill a dozen men ... you name it, I've used it. The research I cited comparing lifetime opiate addicts like me to stroke victims is not meant as methaphore. It is an incontrovertible fact. Even though music can penetrate my misery, when I'm not using, I am a disfunctional shell of myself. Willpower, inspiration, religious conversion, 12-step groups and all the rest are impotent compared to the physical damage done to my brain. For example, I couldn't have written the posts I did tonight without narcotics in my system. I self-detox every month, but, after all the classic withdrawal symptoms are long gone, the misery, disfunctuionality, vacant thinking and abject depression and despair are more than I can live with. There is no Lourdes for lifetime junkies. There is only methadone. Bup is new to this medically backward country of ours and is still not widely understood as a maintenance drug. Plus, it's distribution model at present is as a private physican-dispensed drug. With no job and no medical insurance, bup simply is not an option-- even if I could find a dispensing physician. (When I am employed and insured, I plan to use the new fedral regulations that allow private physicians to dispense methadone as a maintenance drug.) Besides, there is little difference in the dependence and withdrawal syndromes between bup and methadone. Talk to anyone who has withdrawn from bup if you don't believe me. Compared to bup, there is a wealth of research to support proper use of methadone as a maintenance drug. It causes no damage to internal organs, it eliminates the cravings for opiates without imparting a narcotic high, and it blockades the effect of other opiates, eliminating the temptation to use other opiates. I'm already addicted for life, my friend. I might as well be dependent on a drug that allows me to have a decent life. I've researched methadone for three years. I've talked to many, many people who have gotten their lives back through methadone. I don't have chronic pain issues, so only my addiction is a factor in my treatment. And, as far as being registered with the man, I already have three convictions in 15 years for prescription forgery and impersonating a physician. The man and I are on a first name basis. I have known recoverig addicts in NA with almost as much using time as myself, and they are profoundly miserable and barely functional, mere ghosts of who they once were. Many are frequently filled with an unfocused rage which dominates their lives and makes meaningful human relationships all but imposible.

I appreciate your encouragement to try other things, I really do. But, with all due respect, I don't think you realize what league I'm playing in. And Ultram? It's a short-acting pseudo-opiate. I'd go through the entire bottle in 24 hours. Methadone maintenance is my way out of Hell. It might not be yours, but our paths are undoubtedly very different. You remember who you were before you started using. That part of you is still inside, accessible and revivable. I killed my former self long ago and must find a way to live with the Frankenstein I have made of myself. Peace. Thanks for the caring post.

Thomas
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Sorry, my last post was meant for you as well as Golden ... as for our "doc," he is a psychologist, not an MD. And, no, my body, i.e. my brain, will not recover. The latest research indicates that use as extensive and long-term as mine is not repairable. Sure, I could live as an empty headed drug-free ghost to the end of my days, but I neither want that existence nor my present life centered around chasing short-acting opiates like Vics and percs. I want stability, security. I want to know on Sunday that I will be the same person on Monday with the same abilities, instincts, social skills and interest in other human beings that normal people take for granted. As it stands now, I don't know from one day to the next who or what I will do or be. My family and what few friends I've allowed into my life don't know what to make of me from day to day. That is no way to live. I also want to fulfill my destiny as a writer. I'm not ambitious. I don't need to write the great American novel. But I want to produce a creative work in my own voice before I die. I don't even care if it's published in my lifetime. Because of the damage I've done to my brain, without opiates, my gifts fall away and leave me barely suitable to work the counter at the local 7-11. Is sobriety worth losing the only gift that has ever given my life any real meaning? I think not. I appreciate the thought, though. And, to answer your question, as long as I tolerate methadone (and I've never met a narcotic I didn't love), I intend to stay on it for life. For many, that is a form of enslavement. But, brother, compared to the slavery I live under now, methadone 'slavery' means freedom and salvation. I know the net, detox clinics and 12-step groups are abuzz with fervent messages of hope, and virtual guarantees of total recovery. But these folk are not neuropharmacologists and brain researchers. Their message is for the short-timers. For them, there is indeed such hope. But logic and scientifically reproducable evidence cannot be ignored. To ignore what I know now about my condition woud be to abandon the last tool I have to save my life: my rationality. Hope is a wonderful thing. Religious conviction is an intoxicating experience. But that ship has sailed for me, my friend. Rather than being concerned for me, be glad in some small way that a hopeless, lifelong addict who has spent years trying to help everyone but himself is finally taking a step into the only light God chooses to shine onto me. For me, methadone is not slavery. It's the only freedom and salvation I can achieve in this nightmarish world of my own making. Best wishes to you and yours. Happy holidays.

Thomas
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14 advils a day?! Do you have a death wish? That poison will burn a hole in your stomach you can drive a truck through. You stand a very good chance of hemoraging and dying before the ambulance can get you to the ER. It's funny, isn't it? Doctors would rather place their patients in very real peril of their lives than give therm some Vics. Go figure. I also understand that Cox-2 inhibitors such as Celebrex cause significant liver damage over time. What fun, huh?

Thomas
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Thanks for considering me a valued friend of the forum ...

As far as bup is concerned, I can't afford to even try it yet. Plus, I'm geting reports from people seeking out bup that physicians and clinics are only interested in using bup to detox patients. Detox for me is pointless. I need maintenance. The research I cite (and I apologize for not having names and sources of the study text), is based on use of hard core opiates over a ten year period. I have 31 years of hard core opiate use. 31 years ... think about it.  Plus, over many years, I have thorougly detoxed and experienced what is left of my life without opiates. All the evidence says that there is not enough time in the world for my brain to heal.

Bodymechanic, I am not a chronic pain sufferer who became addicted to his meds. I'm a hard core dope fiend. That I usually get my dope from doctors makes no difference. Bup is too new and too expensive for me right now. Besides, I can always transition from methadone to bup if that becomes a more attractive option. But I have no time, money, health, time or will to experiment. I need the proven stuff. I am no different from the heroin addict working the streets for his next fix. I am resolved to try methadone, knowing that the bup option is there should methadone not work out. Thanks for the concern, though.

Thomas
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Hey Thomas .... It's xmas eve and I have the flu and I am expecting 20 people over tommorrow. Aye Carumba!!
Methadone has helped alot of people ... and you are a smart man. Just make sure you have a way out of it, just in case .... I personally hate to limit our potential for healing when it is beyond the scope of our understanding. People have done amazing things after head trauma .... learned to walk and talk all over again. The entire body regenerates and replaces itself every 2 months .... it's a fact. Cell regeneration and renewal is a continuous process. If you believe something strongly enough ... then it is true "for you" .... "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he" .... I don't know who you were before opiates .... but I like the person you are now. No experience is wasted .... turn the beat around and keep going. It will all work out .... Goldie
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Good post today, well written. Be strong and enjoy the holidays. I've found listening to some good old comic's (pryor, cheech and chong etc.) really helps me to just plain old relax and forget for a couple of hours. It helps me stretch 8 hours into 10 or 12 before take another hydro.

Keep up the good work!
teeitup!
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Hi everyone,
It's been ages since I've posted, 'cause my computer died, and I was at home for two weeks straight, crashed down with the flu from hell. Withdrawals are preferrable to the flu, in my humble opinion. Bleh.

Anyway, I wanted to respond to a few things.  There is some evidence to suggest that long term chronic high use of opiate use can cause some people to have hearing loss. Do a search on vicodin and heaing loss to see the articles.  Anyway, I did have some measurable hearing loss from my many years of abuse. I don't know if it was the opiates, but I have hearing loss. Thank Goddess I didn't go deaf, like some people say they have. This info is anecdotal, but it is apparently due to the opiate receptors on the tiny hairs in the ear being damanged, and once they are gone, they can't be repaired.  Thomas, have you noticed any hearing loss or buzzing or ringing in your ears?  It's wierd how some folks get it and others don't.

Thomas, I really support your choice to try methadone.  You are writing in a way that I've never seen you write before...it's both heartbreaking and breathtaking at the same time.  You were the one who helped me break the shame I had about opiate abuse, and I have to still agree with you, it is the Shame that kills our souls.  Your theology is quite in line with mine...We are the Universe becoming aware of itself. Are you sure you are not Pagan? ;-)

Rex, hang in there...I was so impressed by how you reached out for help and stayed on your path. Keep going.  You can do it.

Well, back to work  for me, I've got a pile of calls to return, having been gone for two weeks.

take care all, and happy holidays
WW
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Thomas, I too note a difference in your tone. You are resolute to get a life, any life that does not involve the various narc hunt, capture and release of addiction. Methadone is clearly an option, legal and safe(r). The jury is out on Bup, but Austrialia has a wealth of studies showing it did much better than meth. But I don't want this to be a meth vs. bup discusssion.

I do also sense a stubbornness and I won't use the D word of denial,( opps, just did, forgive me) but, you have clearly made up your mind that you will never function without opiates of some sort. I have been on the net a while and run in to quite a few characters. We are all virtual here, I give you that, however I belong to one group where a gentleman who is somewhat similar to you ( granted no one is quite like you) was addicted for 3 decades and went through a tortuous but successful period of withdrawal. He has now been clean for several years, leads a good life of books, humor and fellowship. My point being and I am sure you will counter it successfully regarding your life - that it can be done and I don't know how you could rule it out unless you viewed it from another summit.

You have no doubt been in the groups, but have you been in prolonged psychotherapy ( you would be a shrink's dream in many ways with your insight, etc ) with adjunct treatment? I hope the methadone works for you - it will relieve the monthly wds. But I wonder if there is not some area in that allegedly addled brain where other springs of hope lie.

Regardless, I wish you best and look forward to your descriptions of the process and your decision to take a different, safer approach.

Finally, this is one helluva an interesting thread.

Regards,
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Thomas, I too note a difference in your tone. You are resolute to get a life, any life that does not involve the various narc hunt, capture and release of addiction. Methadone is clearly an option, legal and safe(r). The jury is out on Bup, but Austrialia has a wealth of studies showing it did much better than meth. But I don't want this to be a meth vs. bup discusssion.

I do also sense a stubbornness and I won't use the D word of denial,( opps, just did, forgive me) but, you have clearly made up your mind that you will never function without opiates of some sort. I have been on the net a while and run in to quite a few characters. We are all virtual here, I give you that, however I belong to one group where a gentleman who is somewhat similar to you ( granted no one is quite like you) was addicted for 3 decades and went through a tortuous but successful period of withdrawal. He has now been clean for several years, leads a good life of books, humor and fellowship. My point being and I am sure you will counter it successfully regarding your life - that it can be done and I don't know how you could rule it out unless you viewed it from another summit.

You have no doubt been in the groups, but have you been in prolonged psychotherapy ( you would be a shrink's dream in many ways with your insight, etc ) with adjunct treatment? I hope the methadone works for you - it will relieve the monthly wds. But I wonder if there is not some area in that allegedly addled brain where other springs of hope lie.

Regardless, I wish you best and look forward to your descriptions of the process and your decision to take a different, safer approach.

Finally, this is one helluva an interesting thread.

Regards,
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Always delighted to hear from you, you lovely thing! Hearing loss from what? I didn't catch that ...LOL. Actually, I get tinitus when I'm withdrawing from benzos, a common WD symptom for that class of drugs. Other than that, I have not noticed any auditory oddities, although I have not had myself tested.

Could I be a pagan? The neighbors certainly think so when I get loaded and climb on top of our roof in my jocky shorts, Viking helmet and bullhorn and start reading from Naked Lunch.

Actually, I know nothing about the pagan philosophy or cosmology. Buddhism's union of intellect and compassion have always facinated me and somewhat formed my spiritual center. The Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path are simple yet all-inclusive and eternally relevant from a human perspective.

I'm curious to know just what paganism encompasses -- especially if all its practitioners look anything like you!

I've missed the hell out of you, ya know. Good to hear from my WW.

Thomas
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Merry Christmas to you, too, Goldie.

Thomas
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Thanks, my friend, for the thoughtful reply. I, too, choose not to debate the pros and cons of bup vs. meth. But hey, it's not irreversible. I can always transition to bup if that works better for me. Remember, bup is just as addicting and packs a nasty withdrawal syndrome many have told me is worse than methadone. In any event, this is the first time in 31 years I have ever really sought meaningful help for my addiction. Psychotherapists? I know too well that I am their dream come true. I've seen several who loved to hear me talk and talk. It took me a while to realize that my main role in our visits was as the unpaid entertainment! My 31 years of conning physicians, pharmacists and my family (along with my Irish heritage), have given me the ability to intertwine truth, lies and fantasies in such a way as to be indistinguishable from one another, regardless of how many degrees the therapists have. It's instinct for me to manipulate people to achieve my ends. That's one reason I'm opting for methadone maintenance. 'No way to talk my way out of a dirty UA! And with a methadone receptor blockade, there is little incentive to misbehave, anyway.

Time, as always, will tell for all of us. I hope the coming year is a grand one for you and yours. Thanks for your interest. Happy Holidays.

Thomas
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::coming up from under a huge mountain of paper work, call backs, and sessions:

Darned busy day at work. Christmass makes everyone so stressed that it stresses even us shrinks out!

It's very hard to really define Pagan theology. We are anarchistic and non dogmatic as a whole.  Probably our basic uniting values include the experience of nature as Divine presence, the earth as sacred. We also tend to believe in the notion of karma, and the Wiccan reed is "Harm none".  
My hubby and I blend Pagan work with Tibettan Budhism, so I'm really a very odd mixture of theologies, but I've never been quite the type to fit in. lol  www.witchvox.com is a great site that gives a flavor for what the modern neo pagan community is up to these days.  

I will tell ya that when I was going through the healing of withdrawals a year and a half ago, grabbing hold of my spirituality helped, a lot. Whatever it takes!

Good to hear from you Thomas!
love,
WW
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hey thomas, as always i have enjiyed reading the post today.
you were quite insightfull,in the past 9 months i have never seen you post so much.
your you honesty is compelling.
i am sure there is a part of you in all of us , those
of us who are addicts, i wanted to use the word hard core
but i feel that that would seperate us,  and i beleive
and addict is and adddict is an addict.
when i was 10 my grand mother bought me a hardy boys book.
after i read it , i took all the money i had . thrity dollars
and rode my bike 5 miles to the book store and bought every
hardy boys book they had. thus began my life of trying to escape
reality, and a short distance down that road was sex drugs and rock and roll , along with money and voilence and more books.
as am addict i don't think i plot.

one thing i beleive is there are no chance meetings, speaking
of the people we meet in life, i do beleive it all happens for a reason.
as far as the F WORD  F-ORNICATION U-DER C-ONSTERNATION from the
K-ING i have come to beleive it is not really a big deal
i try to refrain  from it but growing up in  the hood and going to na for 25 years it is really low on the list of important
things to worry about, especally when people are dying of addiction.
i wish you well in all that you do, and as alway thank you for
your perspective, it is more thaan refreshing
peace ,,,,,,,,,, hippy ,,,,,have a good day
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well it's christmas eve 6pm , and i  was  really touched by the post here, and they have been on my mind and just have me thinking of all sorts of things.
im 42 and my bithday is newyears eve, and life is good.

my 24 year old daughter is married with a 5 year old son. my son is in sarycuse in his 1st year on a full scholarship.
i just moved a few months ago from the suburbs to a richer suburb.
because my inlaws passed away in the last 2 years and left us a bundle of money to buy this big new house. we paid off the house and all are old bill s so now we have no bills.
life is so different, i have had to work my balls off for so many years,i don;t know how to act. as an addict when i am clean from drugs , i find other substitutes to escape with,for instance
last night i put a dime on the steelers  just to perc me up , no pun intended,
so here i am living the life of a normal suburbanite.
i feel like a round peg in a square hole.
as an addict i have the capacity to destroy it all.
the way i avoid that is by living one day at a time.
and realizing that things never stay the same.
being part of the 12 step na program  i have been the main speaker at more then a few conventions, i have alway been gifted
with public speaking, after i would speak people would treat me like i was special almost like a god. some girls would offer
themselves to me . i think robert bly calls it a moment with the king. everyone wants a moment with the king. getting high is ;very much like a moment with the king.
after going down that road for a few years i backed off.
it was not all that attractive to me. i have a life and a lot of feinds, ever since i started working in the union i was put in charge where ever i went, the next thing i knew i was always in charge of everything. i would quit after a few years and go some wher else just to have the same thing happen all over agian.
all i ever wanted to be in life was a history teacher. my mother
is a quaker and is a middleton a direct decendent of athur middleton  a signer of the declration of independence, my mothers famly came to philly with william penn, she belongs to all the historical societies in phila. my fathe r was born in ireland a direct decendent of brian ohiggins a irish poet.
my mothers famly wanted her to be a doctor, but when she married my alcholic father the shunned her and cut her out of the famly
fourtune.they own the double tree hotels and part of the eagles.
my first memory is growing up in the projects in philly.
we were the only white famly, all i learned was how to fight
and steal cars, .i used to think of all that as a curse, now i think of it as a blessing in disguise.when i was a kid i used to
say to myself when i get big i am going to kick sombody's ass.
at twenty five i was clean and a single parent of 3 kids from 3 differnt weoman , got them to the suburbs and they are all normal.thank god, i would never have been able to do that unless i was clean now they are all out of the house and i suffer from empty nest syndrome.
i asked my 78 year old father how his pain was and he joked and said if he did not have his pain he would be lonley.

peace hippy
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WW, "anarchistic and non dogmatic" sound pretty close to my general deportment in pharmacies. I'll check out that web site you gave me. No one said a religion or spiritual discipline had to be old to be true! Ya know, if you were REALLY thoughtful, tomorrow your husband would wake up and find you under the tree. Don't worry, 'not goin for cybersex here, just trying to make the world a better place (for some). But you have to admit, that photo of you in that belly dancing costume doesn't exactly remind one of Mrs. Doubtfire ... As a last resort, blame my post on Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 2, he always rouses the blood! If applicable, Merry Christmas to you both.

Hippy
No pity for you my good man ... stealin cars in high school and now you're inheriting from both ends. And the Double Tree chain. Well ... eat **** and die motherfucker! LOL

Ah, please excuse the outburst of holiday cheer, hippy, I think I'm OK now ... I've always thought it especially thoughtful of relatives to pass away before they run through all their dough!

You know, while doing a 90-day house arrest and residential drug treatment program at the "request" of a Superior Court Judge, I really dedicated myself to AA and to a lesser extent, NA (alas, there was always this raven haired man-killer in my NA meetings who had an Egyptian-style serpent tattoo running from her neck, undulating god knows where under her blouse, and reappearing from under her slit leather skirt. 'Didn't exactly work my program in that meeting!

But I attended a lot of other meetings, worked a little bit with a sponsor (unfortunately, my will was greater than his, so it wasn't your classic sponsorship), studied the Big Book like a Tibetan monk studies the sutras, and embraced AA's methods and philosophies just to make it from one day to the next. Whether you sincerely believe in the spiritual side of AA or not, there is great wisdom, much of it as simple as it is powerful, to be gleaned from Bill W. and Doctor Bob. In fact, addiction or not, many meetings are worth attending anyway. I'm so glad that NA has worked for you, for odds are, you wouldn't be where you are now if you were still hustling dope. Merry Christmas back to you and yours. I hope your nephew has a special Christmas, too.

Thomas


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Just thinking of you tonight and thought I'd check in, looks like you've had a full day of writing. I know you got to be a strong willed SOB or you would not still be here. Hang tuff, keep writing and I'll be thinking of you.

teeitup!
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Me, a strong-willed SOB? 'Fact is, I love getting high so much I would never do myself in or engage in life-threatening activities such as injecting speedballs. I did, however, earn my living from age 17 to 21 as a semi-professional motorcycle racer for an aftermarket component supplier for Honda. But, then, at 17, you're immortal, right?

Thomas
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I'm not going to touch that last post ... however much I'd love to.

Thomas
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OMG!!!My thoughts exactly! Har de Har Har............
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Merry Christmas old friends. Happy New Year too.  Apreciate your words and encouragement in 2002. God knows will need them in 2003.  Always here for your.  Take good care, Nod
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Hellow back. Long time! Now, I want to know if Nod is still an active description of your nightlife. If so, I'll be over right away ...

Thomas
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hey nod merry christmas to you too.
and thomas you are to funny.
that sense of humor of yous is just as good
as any 12 step program. i hope you get that snake girl
under your tree.
peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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......seems to be a Christmas of firsts at my house today:
: first one without my dear mom
: first one without my grandma
: first one with my MIL here
: first one without my buddy(that lived 3 houses away...murdered)
: first one without Oxy in my blood...in a long time
: first one without any substances racing thru MIL's bloodstream
: first one that really feels like family!

Seasons Best to Everyone Here, and Hoping 2003 is Filled with Happiness!!!!!!!

Percs No More
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All the best to you, my friend. It sounds like you're truly having a Christmas of firsts! Savor it. You made it happen with your own will and hands.

Thomas
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Thank you Sir Thomas!!!
I guess you consciously are not aware of any possible positives that can come from tragedy; but i can say first hand, it really has made me focus on the positives.
And I would have to say you and others here have helped me tremendously.....and for that I am forever grateful.
Hope you had a great Christmas Day also!!!
Keep posting brother, as everyone has mentioned, you write with amazing insight, compassion, humour, eloquence, (you get the idea); meaning: people always read a Thomas post.
THANK YOU
Percs
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They ALWAYS read a Thomas post? Mmmmm, I wonder if I should add some banner ads ...

Happy Holidays, hope everyone that wants to be is happily in the bag by now.

Thomas
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Hey Greg--Hope you had a great Christmas!! It certainly sounds like you did.  You deserve it, guy!  I made it through a day w/ drinking relatives, and though I left early (by my own choice) my sobriety is intact and I'm not even pouting.....Anyway--it was good to hear from you.


Thomas---Since I stayed sober I am not in the bag, but perhaps I can get in the sack a little later......Is that an even exchange?
                  Peaz
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Holy Buckets!! I just reread what I typed and it sounds like  blatant seduction...I was referring to my husband, of course.....  You're safe for now.  Peaz
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Damn. And I was just in the mood to be taken advantage of ... We've never met or talked on the phone, but I KNOW you're a hell raiser in the boudoir ... Trust me. I just know these things.

Thomas
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OKAY......   WHO'S GOT THE BIG MOUTH........??

Peaz
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Alls I can say is wow.  what a thread. I made it through Christmas, got on the board and was amazed at all the responses to your choice to go on meth maintenance.  I am coming off of a two year run of oxys, 400mgs, 12 perc 10s and zanax. Got Diagnosd with HCV in 2000 and during the six months of a very hellis 6 month of treatment, my doc gave me anything I wanted.  Good news, I am cured, yet kept the opiate habit going for another 18 months.  I to have used since I was 13,pcp acid, angel dust, crystal meth, heroin, got on meth maintenace for a year, smoking crack and shooting coke.  6 treatment facilities, kept using, but then found NA.  Stayed clean for 7 years, married a recovering addict, have two great kids.  I own my own company and work with the major hotels in vegas.  Have a life I always would think about when I was high. Yet, once I got it, it was not enough.

Year 7 I was cured, so stopped meetings and NA altogether.  Started drinking, then got into gambling, carousing and acting like I was single.  I chalk it up to a mid life crisis. I have got a great lady who put up with alot of ****, but stuck with me.

Now to the point, being high on a legal or illegal substances has been a way of life for me 30 years.  Like there are parts of my brain and especially my emotions that have become abnormal.  I sit in meetings with educated dweebs, who I used to kick their ass in high scool if they looked at me wrong and negotiate contracts, create schedules and all that goes along with new construction or renovation. I listen more than I talk, before I make a comment I have to really take a second to reply.  My brain has also been changed that if I do not focus with all my willpower, I will answer with weird response. It has happened, more times than I can remember, but like every dope fiend I am quick on my feet and the comeback.

I relate and understand where your coming from,  I have been playing the pill chasing game for the last year, I am so sick of it.  I will close with this, I have detoxed off of many pain pills,  however, this time has been almost as bad as when I went cold turkey in 88 from methadone.  I have gone back to NA, because it has been the only thing to work for me.  In my absece in the last 5 years alot of people have died that I knew.
But their are many who are staying clean one day at a time.  This world is insane in the first place, whoever can get through a day without hurting themselves, abusing drugs or hurting some one else, God Bless them.  

Oh, I am increasing the L ty and b6, I found out I was only taking 500 mgd a day.  I let you know the result.  Thanks for answering my post, and please relize I have no pity for you, only respect and empathy for your own path of life. Keep the faith and keep posting.
Strength and Honor
Greg
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YO GREG
I HAVE BEEN TAKING THOMAS'S RECEIPE AND IT HAS BEEN A GODSEND.
i have seen people write that viamine s are useless
but that is not my experence, the L-tyrosine and b-6 has
been great for me, and it is not in my head. the **** works.

peace borther.

hippy
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YO GREG
I HAVE BEEN TAKING THOMAS'S RECEIPE AND IT HAS BEEN A GODSEND.
i have seen people write that viamine s are useless
but that is not my experence, the L-tyrosine and b-6 has
been great for me, and it is not in my head. the **** works.

peace borther.

hippy
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Thomas you've got to write the book. I can name on my left hand
how many books I have read. "magic rabbit and socks in the dryer"
I'am still laughing. We need a funny opiate book to read. Word of
mouth works wonders and I am sure there would be third, forth and
fifth printings and editorials like "I found myself laughing out
loud". The mistrials of opiate abuse. It would be perfect for you
as you are one of the funniest people I've ever met. Not really
even met but the privilege of just knowing you and hopefully your
friend.
Tom
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two books  1 naked lunch.
2  a book about a rehab  SAINT MARY BLUE  BY BARRY GOODYEAR.
TRUE STORY ABOUT HIMSELF, HE IS A AWARD WINNING WRITER
HE WROTE THE SCIFI  ENEMY MINE.

PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OE OF MY FAVORIT REALLY SICK HORROR BOOKS IS
THE DAMNATION GAME  by clive barker.
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Thanks hippee I'll check them out.
Tom
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I really dont think it should be your concern why Thomas is thinking of getting on methadone...If you have been off of methadone for a long tme, and are still feeling the effects, then you got offf of it too fast....I know many success stories of people who detoxed from methadone, and are doing fine.....With a habit like Thomas's (excuse me for speaking on your behalf) Buph wouldnt touch his WD's his cravings, basically it would do nothing.......Buph is for people who have short mild drug histories.....And as for opiates hurting your organs...Sorry, it is the fillers that will kill you..Opiates, TAKEN AS DIRECTED causes no harm....AS for the constipation..There are many things to use that are safe.....Peridium, docolace (SP) and any vegatable laxitive......



NoNaForMe
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Hey everyone!  I found this site today and I'm very glad I stumbled across it.  I'm only 21.  I've been taking oxycodone every day for 2 years.  I know that's pretty small-time, but it's my only vice and I feel like it took me over.  My mother has stage 4 breast cancer in the bones and she gets lots of percocet.  The absolute worst is since I can't be without them, I take them from her and i've never felt so horrible and shameful in my life, since she has immense pain and she needs them!  I feel like my true self only when I take 3 or 4 percs.  I feel like I can't (or want to) do anything without them.  It scares me and this is the first time I'm stopping.  Last night was the 2nd night I didn't sleep a minute.  I could not get comfortable.  My nose kept running and I couldn't stop sneezing.  My legs were shaky.  I think this is normal?  I'm going out after work to buy the L-Tyrosine, maybe that will help with the "blah" I feel all day.

Anyways, the whole point of this post is just to sort of thank you guys, everyone is so supportive of eachother and Thomas I just can't imagine how your life must be after 31 years of this (no offense meant, it's very noble that you still have the courage to try and help yourself).  Today's world is so full of negative influence and this message board is the exact opposite.  I wish everyone the best of luck.
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Please reprint or writ your story on a NEW POST. you are adding to a old post from 2002. Alot of people will be glad to help and advise you but will miss this because of where you placed this. Dont attach below, find the new post. Even if a person answers here just start a new one, they will follow you. good luck
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Today is day 2 without 10 lorcet a day.  I have been up all night, I am hurting all over, there was a suicide in the newspaper this morning and I'm thinking, maybe they were on day 2 also.  Help!
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oh PLEASE dont talk like that, trust us hun...we ALL here know how it feels...just plain horrible, you will have some bad days, but that means you are closer to getting better...if you really feel suicidal, then please go to the emergency room and get some help with the depression and dysphoria, your life IS worth more than pills,  please repost this on a new thread....this one is old from year 2002..there are ALOT of very caring and experienced people on this forum that would be happy to help you...please repost, you will get alot of answers and i assure you . it will help...
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honey, you got about another day or so before the bad w/d symptoms pass - JUST HOLD ON and know it IS going to pass soon.

we all know how hard it is, believe me.  the worst.  but it's your/our only option if we want a meaningful life.

you can do this - you're already on day 2!!!!  you're in the worst of it (so that's the good news - you shouldn't get any worse..) and very soon, you will feel much better.

and as wait2long said, PLEASE start a new post if you need help.  sometimes people can get lost in the shuffle posting on old ones.  if people here see you need support, they'll come a runnin'...  also, if there is any way you can get something to help you sleep (otc sleep medication, herbal remedies, eben a prescription) it does help.  even a benzo might help...

keep up the fight!  you are almost there.....

very warmly,
mj
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Need assitance  been taking vic since 2004 really bad every day 3 pills a day recently a lady passe away she was 45-50years old she was cosuming 10-pils a day 7.5 Watson , now since that  yeasterday i just took 1 a day but my right side kind of hurts either because i dont take it like i was or withdraws, but need help or direction where to go to get detox asap. I have the will to bet this ****, but any suggestion  

Whittier California
562-824-3207 Lio

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Welcome to the forum. This is a great place for help and support.You have posted on an old thread. Repost w/ your own postt so you will not be overlooked...many people don't respond to the old dates... See you out in the forum....
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R u guys still lurking?
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Please help me.  I have just read your postings here and Thank God I have found some people that know what I am going through.  The number of pills i take a day will shock you i have been told it would kill a large animal.  I have consumed 50 to 55 7.5 vicodin a day at times.  I must have a liver made of concreate but I know I cannot continue this life style.  It is running my relationships, finance and of course my mind and body.  I had to start taking vicodin about 6 years ago for a torn rotator in my shoulder.  I could not afford the correct therapy so it took about four years to heal.  After the four years i tried to stop taking vicodin and realized i was addicted.  The last two years have been pure hell trying to find enough pills on a daily basis to stay out of that horriable place called detox.  I really need help, alot of help.  Can someone please tell  me what the Thomas recipe is?  I want to try and take anything natural that I can to start this process and I know i will need all of you.  I have also heard a lot about Buprenex, Clonidine, L-Tyrosine, Librium.  What are these drungs and how do they help.  I know if I tell my doctor I want to stop taking vicodin he will prescribe what it takes to help me but I have to ask him for it, he is not the kind of doctor to figure it out for me and tell me what I need.  I don't know what to ask for to help me.  As soon as I can get a response from you so i will know what to do I will start trying to detox. I am hoping this site can get me through it.  I have NO family or friends in the city i live in and my two wonderful daughters want me to come live with them in another state.  I can't go until I do this.  I have to be happy, work, have a life besides searching for pills before I can make this move to be with them.  The shame and depression are really getting to me. In the mornings my body feels like a elephant is laying on me  and I am so stiff, every joint hurts and I can't imagine even trying to go to the bath room before I get a hand full of pills down me.  O my god I am so sick.  I have such a high opiate addiction I know I should be hospitalized but known of the hospitals will take me because i do not have insurance.  I don't even know if my body can make it through the hell it will have to indure but I know I have to try. I am 47 years old and if I don't do this my life is over.  If I don't get off of opiates i have know reason to try to live, it is just to hard.   I will check this site daily hoping for your help.  I need to know what to do from hour to hour from the time I start this.  If anyone is out there that would like to give back what you have received in recovery maybe you can call me or help me via email.  
BY:  LAST CHANCE
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Hi Sunnyone802,
What does your response mean.  I don't understand what is a old post and where would i post my own question?  I thought that was what i was doing.  Is there another place to go?
thanks
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