Darvon or methadone

[Frankinscense]

Dr. S.A.:
I have read where some doctors are using darvon to maintain or treat opiate addicition. I have heard some individuals compare propoxyphene to methadone. I do not think that you can compare the two as a treatment modality. Am I correct in saying that propoxyphene is much more toxic than methadone, and is a poor choice for detoxing addicts simply because of the toxicity of the drug? Cross tolerance that occurs,and that a dose of darvon that could stop cravings and withdrawals of some addicts could actually kill the person due to the toxicity of the drug(propoxyphene)!? I am confused. Can you help me answer this question?
Thank You Dr. Steve
Frank N. Sence

[tom to Frankincence]

I'm not the doctor, but I suspect that your question may have been inspired to some extent from my posts on this site. I would never want my life or methods to become anyone's model for maintenance or recovery. I am currently "maintaining" my 30-year rx opiate addiction with Darvon 65 (plain propoxyphene, no aspirin or Tylenol). But it's hardly out of choice. There is some legislation, which I've read and have asked Doc Dan to interpret for us, which suggests that in March of this year a wide range of doctors will be able to become certified to treat opiate addiction with methadone. Currently, Methadone clinics are under the lead fist of the fascist, citizen-hating DEA (the DEA's unwritten charter considers all addicts to be criminals and sub-human filth not worth rehabilitating -- nice bunch of guys). However, in March of this year, another body, SAMHSA, or Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, part of the Department of Health and Human Services, will have the authority to authorize physicians to provide methadone and LAAM maintenance and/or detox to patients, as long as the physician is affiliated with an Opioid Treatment Program-based organization and gets SAMHSA certification.

My interpretation (I'm not a lawyer, either) is this will allow rehabilitation centers beyond the inner-city hard core ones we have now to offer methadone and LAAM treatment for opiate addiction. I don't know how "affiliated" a doctor has to be to get certified. I'm hoping it means at some private practice addiction specialists will be able to treat patients with methadone.

About Darvon, I've been hearing for years that heroin addicts sometimes use Darvon to get them through periods when heroin is unavailable. My recollection is that Darvon only partially addresses the needs of heroin addicts, even though it's chemically related in structure to methadone. I can tell you it's not a good pain killer if pain relief is what you're after. However, as I understand it, after being on methadone for a period of time, methadone, at that dosage, ceases to provide pain relief, only controlling the cravings, which, of course, is its mission to start with.

As far as toxicity goes, there is manufacturer literature that suggests that it is not a good long-term drug and is rarely associated with something called "liver jaundice." So, my answer to the toxicity question is that it is toxic to a degree, but I doubt if it's near as toxic as Tylenol, but, again, I'm not a doctor.

I can tell you that I take 4 doses of 4 darvon 65's every day and don't experience any ill effects that I know of. My goal currently is to get off the Darvon by either using the buprenorphine detox cure or going on methadone maintenance. Currently, there re only two clinics in my area, both in Santa Ana, So Cal, which both look and feel like an extension of the Orange County Jail system. Call me a snob, but I'm not reporting to those places today or any day, Jack. It's all well and good to say "humble yourself" and that "we've all got the same disease." So be it. But one visit to those places told me I was in the wrong place to get clean. For those contemplating it, remember that going on methadone maintenance makes you just as dependant on that clinic, or, put another way, just as much under their power as if you were on parole from prison and had a parole officer on your ass. Thanks, but I'll pass as things are now.
I'm hoping and praying that the new legislation will mean I can go to a bright, clean office in a safe neighborhood where I can get competent, individualized attention from a physician whom I can develop a doctor/patient relationship with. I don't think that's asking for a hell of  lot.

Anyway, that's my two cents on your post. Let's see what the pros have to say about all of this.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I don't have much experience with Darvon.  When I was in drug rehab a few years ago, we were warned about the dangers of mixing Darvon and alcohol.  It can cause some people to have severe reactions such as halucinations, irrational behavior, seizures and violent outbursts.  So if you drink, Darvon is not for you!  Just a word to the wise for whatever it's worth.

[tom to J.B. and all my friends]

first off, I don't drink alcohol, never have -- not that that is some kind of accomplishment.

To all: I left a post way down on "Why can't we stop?" that I want you to read. I know how "together" I can make myself sound on this forum, but my post should give you a more accurate picture of what a fool I am. I can't tell anyone but all of you and really expect to be understood. It's an example of just what addiction costs us, day after day. I'm not looking to be excused, but all of you have shared so much of yourselves with me and I wanted to do the same. Without all of you, "the real me" is truly alone in this world. No one else has an inkling of who I really am. Anyway, thanks for listening and thanks for being my friend.

[tom to all again]

sorry, wrong thread -- it's under a thread starting with the word "depression ..." and it's initially to Tara and J.B.

[Patrice]

Hi Tom

Tom, I am really dissapointed in you right now.  I am a street junkie, who got clean in NA many years ago, yes I relapsed, and part of the reason is I forgot where I came from!!!!!  Yes I am on methadone right now, with all the other junkies, some who dont even have teeth.  But who am I to say that I will not go there to get the help I despertly need, because some of the people dont fit into what I call an "upscale addict"  Tom, I think you need to go to some NA meetings and look around, we ARE all the SAME!!!!!  I wondered why a drug addict like you only went to AA, now I know.  Tom, this is not to flame you in any way!!!  I just wish you would open your eyes, the junkies that go to the methadone clinics are US!!!!  They have dreams and hopes too.  And guess what---  I have even seen a few people come into the clinic in brand new cars.  Sweetie we are all the same.  I was a street junkie, I worked the streets of my town to get my drugs.  Today I am an upperclass married woman who still embrases the street junkie.  Yea, I have 2 cars, a home a dog and a wonderful husband, but in one second, I can be who I was before, a lier, cheat, theif and a *****, no, wait a minute, I am still all that, the thing is I dont have to practice that stuff, by my willingness to recover and with my HP's help.  Tom, I dont want you to be upset or mad at me, just think about what I said.  Listen to yourself.  I dont know about AA, but in NA we are taught that there is no second class addict.  We are as one, and I would do anything for a suffering addict as long as I did no harm to that person or myself.  I am one of those who would pick up a woman who hadnt taken a bath in a week just to get her to a meeting, but only if she truely wanted to go.  Think about what I have said tonight and see if your thoughts have changed.  For your sake and your recovery, I hope they do, I care for you as one addict to another, and dont want you to spoil the good that can come to you because of your prejudice (sp) for a certain type of addict.  If you feel you need MMT go for it NOW, it may save your life!!!!!   And dont hold your breath on the doctors handing out methadone, you may wait a long time

Love your sis in recovery

Patrice

[Frankinscense]

Well put Patrice! I am happy for you also!
Dan..

[tom to Dan]

I notice you're ignoring my questions to you about the legislation featured on the Lindsmith site. Any particular reason for that? The least you could do is respond. But, on the other hand, don't put yourself out.

[tom to Patrice]

there is more to it than what you're addressing. My job currrently doesn't allow me the time to make the horrible daily commute plus night after night of required meetings every week. What got me in dutch at work was being out of the office at a critical moment. Taking the option you urge on me would multiply that problem ten-fold. Then, fired from my job, I could drop by your house once a week to get one of those showers you give to the homeless. It's just this simple, the existing meth clinics are too far away and require too many mornings and evenings when I simply MUST be at work. The schedule is impossible. I must work to find a more a closer, more accessible source. In addition, I stand by what I said about the NA meetings I have gone to (apprx 40 in the last ten years). If I wanted to score some heroin I would simply go to one of those meetings and hang out by the door. Sure ...lots of sobriety there.
But thanks for the post all the same, Patrice.

[Patrice]

Hi Tom

I choose to only one comment that you made here tonight.  Dont EVER INSULT AN NA MEETING TO ME OR ANY OTHER MEMBER!!!!!Hate to dissapoint you, but I know many people that live in Southern Ca. Are in NA and have 25years+ in the fellowship.  I hope one day you find what you are looking for.  I hope you find a doctor that will dose you methadone, but wait a long time my friend.  Sorry your additude bumms me out, and I dont need negitivity in my life right now.  Maybe youll be lucky and no one else from NA will see your post

Have a good life

Regards

Patrice

[Patrice]

Dear tom,

In NA, we dont call it sobriety, we call it being in recovery.  Sobriety is for AA who are sober.  So please dont memtion sobriety and NA in the same sentence.  It is like respecting my home.  When I go to your home for example a friends birthday, I respect AA's home, I dont talk about drugs or say I am clean.  So I would expect the same respect from you.

Have a good night

Patrice

[Frankinscense]

I have two request. One to get a copy of the regs for another counselor,and one by you to give my interpretation. Well, fact is I have been so busy with my work. I rarely have time to be on the computer for more than ten minutes a day. I will try this weekend. Not ignoring you Tom.
Dan...

[Joe to the 'new' tom]

What is with you lately tom?  I used to really respect you and regard your advice.  You seemed genuinely concerned about people and willing to help.   Nowadays, it seems that more often than not you are discouraging or even embarassing people and posting negative threads about some person or entity.  

Look, we all have problems--which is why we are here--but dwelling on the negative doesn't always lead to solutions.  You used to be the voice of reason and hope.  Frankly, I like the 'old' tom better and wouldn't mind seeing more of him.

Joe

[Shiny]

You forget Joe, Tom is real and genuine.  That about says it all.

[Gina]

I have to say that Tom is entitled to his "down" time too. We have been lucky that he has shared some great insight with us and always expect him to be the voice of reason and hope. As Anon stated he is human and if he's feeling down or negative he should be able to share that with us. Maybe it's time we are there for him as he has been for us. We love you Tom and if there is anything we can do to help you, please ask!

[andrea_s]

Excuse me, I thought we all came here to be ourselves because it's not something we can do otherwise? Then you get mad at Tom because he voiced his opinion??? Hello? I read some posts back where Angel was "flaming" you and you sure as hell didn't like that. But you get upset because Tom spoke his opinion?  So you "flame" him? I personally have learned alot from Tom. He gives good advice. But he has his opinion and is entitled to it. If he doesn't care for N/A then that's his right. He doesn't need your permission or your lectures, I'm sure. We all come here to listen and to be heard. I don't agree with everything you've said either. But I just move on to the next post. Mellow out Patrice. You said you don't need negativity in your life? Well, this board if for the UP'S and DOWN'S of an addicts life. Now you're saying we can't talk about the downs because you don't want to hear them? You say you don't want him talking about N/A because they have helped you? Well, Tom has helped me and I don't like to hear you talking about him. Tom has the same rights on this board as you do. Please respect them.

[andrea_s]

I have been following this forum for about 3 months or so. I've never posted, this is my first time. But I have read every post. I have looked for Tom's posts because they make me feel like I have a friend. You are entitled to your opinions and so is Tom.  He doesn't like N/A? So sue him. For crying out loud, we are all entitled to our opinions just like you.You like N/A- he doesn't. He has that right. No one feels like being Mary Poppins all day long. Do we have to pretend to be happy when we're not just so you don't have any negativity in your life. Yeh. Thats really fair to us all. Even though he never knew it, Tom has been a great source of comfort to me. He is entitled to his bad days too. I think we should be there for him, just like he's there for us.

[Patrice]

Hi

I wasnt flaming Tom, I was just trying to have him listen to me.  we are all here for the same reason, for recovery, when I did get mad is when he said the folks from NA sell drugs at meetings, and there is no recovery in NA, like I said last night, I know many people from NA in Southern Ca that have 25+ years of recovery.  I just asked him to give respect to NA.  I do not believed I flamed Tom, I didnt cuss him out or call him names or anything like that.  As for the negitivaty (sp) part, all I said was he was being negitive and I didnt need to hear it at that time.  And yes Tom has helped me too, and I never would even want to go no matter what.  To get down to the core issue, is it is true he has his own opions, but he put down NA with a passion, see, the thing is, I dont like AA but I would never say anything to harm that fellowship, because if it wernt for AA, there would be no NA.  AA is our Mother group.  If he doesnt like NA fine, just dont say the horrible things he said, that was all I was asking from him.  He is a good person, and like I said, he has helped me too!!!!  So even though I feel I dont have to defend myself, I will..  I wasnt flaming Tom at all!!!  That is not what this is all about, it is about one recovering person helping another, simple...  And for all of us that are trying to be in recovery, we will at times argue, and even fight, but we will be friends at the end, because that is what it is all about.  I hope I answered your questions, and I have no quarell (sp) with you.  So lets all try to get along and keep coming back.  This is our lives we are talking about!!!!!  We dont need to argue over petty things, we need to respect each other and treat everyone the way we want to be treated, so lets call a truce and start over,I am willing if you are.


Take Care

Patrice

[Patrice]

Hi Deb

read my post from a few minutes ago, that should explain what I was saying last night
Take care

Patrice

[andrea_s]

I have to agree with the above posts. Patrice, what works for you doesn't mean it would work for everyone. We all have to do what makes up comfortabe. What good would it do to be involved with a program that you didn't feel good about? A person in that situation would start dreading going to meetings because they don't feel comfortable, then pretty soon they would stop all together. And this is an OPEN forum where we all have the right to our opinions. You can't keep getting your husband to bawl us out jut because we say something you don't like. This is called "the addiction forum" not the "let's only say things that Patrice wants to hear forum."  I'm glad that N/A is working for you. Personally, I don't care for it. I think I have that right. Go back and re-read some of Toms posts and then re-read some of yours.If I had to put my money on the person that was more stable, I have to go with Tom.  But what makes this forum interesting is that we are all different people with different ideas about what works for us and what doesn't. But we all have one thing in common and that is the thing that brought all of us to this board. Either we know someone addicted or we are the addicted one.

[to doc dan from joe]

Tom the above comments to you are from a different "Joe" than myself, I will use my last initial "C" from now on to differentiate myself from the other "Joe"

Thanks,

JoeC

[JoeJ to JoeC]

Oops...sorry Joe C. I didn't know that someone else was already using "Joe".  I will call myself JoeJ.

Thanks

[Tara to Patrice]

Patrice, I think you are a very defensive and self-involved person.  If you would take the time to read some of the posts Tom has made lately, you will see what a tough time he is having right now.  You say your not flaming him yet you won't just let this go.  You keep coming back with more.  I think what Tom needs right now is friends and I dont think you are doing a very good job of that right now.  The last thing we want is for anyone to feel like they cannot say whatever they feel because if we can't say it here, where can we say it?  It seems to me that the only time you post is to either vent on someone or defend yourself.  Maybe you should let this issue with Tom go for everyone's sake and try to be there for others.  There are more important things to discuss here than you always getting the last word.

Tara

[Patrice]

Lynnie

What has happened here is that I had a dissagreement with Tom, what you arent getting is that I KNOW that not everything works for all people, all I was upset about was Tom saying terrible things about NA, you say you dont care for it, hey thats ok,I respect you for that,but I didnt hear you saying you can go buy drugs over there either.As for my husband comming to my defense, God girl, he did that one time because someone woulnt quit bugging me!  I dont care if you are in a 12 step group or not,and that was a snid remark to say what Patrice wants to hear forum.  That is so far from the truth!!!  I got upset at one statement.  I do know one thing if anyone here is an addict, there isnt much tolerance here at all!!!!  What is this board about? Who is more stable?  Where the heck did that come from?  I only have one more thing to say on this subject.  I have made it clear that I flamed no one and this will turn into a war if it isnt dropped.  This is getting out of hand, remember I wasnt the one who insulted a whole fellowship of people.  I respect people and you can take it or leave it, I personally dont care, and Tom is a big boy, he can stick up for himself.  All I know is in the short time I have been here, Tom has helped me, but last night it was a compleatly different Tom that I shared with.  He had no compassion or caring for the addict who still suffers, and I never as he put it let people take showers in my home.  I said I would give a newcomer a ride to a meeting even if they hadnt showered in a week, it was an example of my willingness, and it goes only for women.  I dont 12 step men.  Thats all I have to say

Take care

Patrice

[Patrice]

If you would read my posts from today, you would see that I am trying to have people leave it alone, but they just keep writting back about it.  And that is a LIE about me posting only to defend myself or to vent on someone.  Most of my posts are about my ongoing recovery in the MMT. Why dont you read everything and not just what you want to read ladySO WHY DONT YOU LEAVE IT ALONE, we all need compassion and friends, not just one person, everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take Care

Patrice

[Tara to Patrice]

I have just read your posts to Lynnie and myself and it baffles me how you can still be going on like this.  You seem to think that everyone is wrong but you.  I dont understand what goes through your head and I dont think I want to.  So please just give it up.  You have insulted Lynnie, Angel, me and Tom just by WASTING all of our time with this childish banter.  Feel free to respond with whatever you like (WE ALL KNOW YOU WILL) but I refuse to dignify anything more you (or your husband)have to say with an answer. Lay off crazy lady!

Tara

p.s.  Yes, Tom can fight his own battles but I am sure that everyone here knows that arguing with you is not and should not be a priority to Tom.  Get a clue, why do you think he hasnt responded to you?

[tom to thread]

I'll make it easy for everyone. Don't look to my posts for understanding, inspiration or hope, because I have recently come to realize that I possess none of these qualities. I am overwhelmed with remorse right now by the knowledge that my wife of 17 hears chose to waste her best years with a glib, pseudo-intellectual, self-absorbed liar, drug addict and loser. We can all read books and regurgitate someone else's words in nice, pretty little sentences that make us sound so reasonable and wise. But now I'm weary of all the words and find myself envying the dead. If it had not been drug addiction I would have just found another way to squander the gift of life. Patrice, believe about me whatever makes you feel the most righteous. The tone suits you. To all else, look to yourselves for answers. I don't have any and never really did. Pretty prose and a few clever retorts, that's what I've wasted everyone's time with on this forum. I'm tired now. I wish all of you the best. Good night.

[Amber to Patrice]

I know that you have said that you want to move on from the subject, but I do want to say something. Tom said that if he wanted to score heroin he would simply go to a meeting and hang out by the door. I read Tom's post and he never said that the folks at meetings sell drugs. I think that he meant there are dealers who hang around NA meetings looking to sell drugs because so many people do relapse (I know people who have experienced this). Although I am happy for you that you are 25 years in recovery, I understand that the relapse rate for NA is extremely high and NA is not for everyone. Tom has an opinion about NA and is trying to look for something that will work for him. I think Tom is very informed, very real, and I look forward to his posts in particular. Please think twice before you jump all over someone.

[Patrice]

Amber I wasnt jumping on Tom, I simply was upset when he said that about NA.  Amber it happens everywhere.  AA/CA/NA. its just a fact of life, and I took offence because that is where I got my recovery.  Its like (for me) defending my life!!!  Thats how strong I feel in my recovery.  If you feed the posts, you will know I did flame, I had a dissagrement.  And everyone jumped on me (why?) I havent intentionally hurt anyone here.  Yes sometimes I speak my mind, but hell girl, I never cussed or called anyone a name, I was the one attacked tody, dont get me wrong, I can handel it, but why do people jump to conclusions, I was just stating MY opinion (I have that right too).  Thank you for not jumping on me, but I have to correct you.  I said I know people who have 25 years clean, I am in a relapse right now.  I am a heroin addict who is on methadone.  I have been in NA for 16 years, and made the choice to go back out and use, after 12 years in recovery.  It happens in all 12 step groups.  Heck, this dude from Fresno who had 30 years sober in AA went on a plane to open up his new treatment center, when he got off the plane in Fresno, he was soooooooooo drunk, he couldnt walk.  It happens because we are human, not because of the 12 step group we belong to.  I am glad I had the chance to share with you and hope you have no ill feelings toward me

Take Care

Patrice

[Patrice]

Dear Tom

I have NO ill feeling towards you, this stuff got otta hand because a few people kept it going.  I am just upset that you flamed NA, no more no less.  I think you have a lot to give, I just think you may have something going on with you, and right now,you feel hopeless and useless------you are non of those things.  Tom get out your books, read them and go to a meeting!!!!  That always helps.  I know you live in a big city, so you can find a meting.  I don care about you even though you pi$$ me off sometimes  LOL

Take Care and God bless

Patrice

PS        Dont ever talk about eving the dead  you have too much to lve for

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

As of this morning I have been free of opiates for five days.  Today is also my 49th birthday and I intend to celebrate it by being clean for another day.  I can honestly say that I am proud of myself for not giving in to the craving.  For me, mornings are the worst part of the day so I am sitting here typing away to get my mind off of using.  Whatever it takes, do it!

I just got to the point where the price I paid for using was too high.  I want to tell Tom that I can relate to his post about envying the dead and writing all the beautiful words of inspiration.  This state of mind gets tedious if not downright painful eventually.  Anyway, I'm going to try complete abstinance one more time.  There can be no half measures for me anymore if I want to start recovering from this disease.

[Gina]

Tim, sweetheart, what has happened in the past few days that makes you want to beat yourself up and envy the dead? Like I said you are allowed to have your down time but it sounds like you sunk far beneath the bottom. I'm worried about you. Your wife has not wasted her time on a loser but rather a winner. If nothing else, give yourself credit that you have been able to maintain yourself on a small amount of darvocet for so long. I know you would occassionally get something stronger when neccessary. I have NEVER been able to taper or save some for later. If it was there I would take it until it was gone. I swear to God it would haunt me knowing it was there. Please don't give up on the fight. Something will come through for you soon, I just know it because you DESERVE it. Tom, you are so respected here that we couldn't imagine going on without your input. I personally look for your posts. You have helped me (and others I'm sure)tremendously! Take some pride in that. If there is anything I can do to help you through this, just ask! I mean it! Love, Gina.

[Tara to J.B.]

Congratulations on your big accomplishment!!! I think everyone here "gives a damn" about your recovery.  You must feel great!!!  It is great to hear about success stories such as yours, and personally it makes me feel that my goal is not so far out of reach.  I dont know how you do it, that takes a great deal of strength and willpower.  I have tapered from 4 pills/day and now am on my last week at 1/2 pill/day.  Next Monday will be my first day of taking absolutely nothing and I am extremely scared but also a little excited.  Anyway, I hope you will continue to post and keep everyone motivated.  HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!

Tara

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thanks for your reply of encouragement!  Yes, it's not the easiest thing in the world to do but the point is that you have to want to do it.  My wife was dosing me with RX'd Lorcet on schedule for the last four months and man, I thought that everything was under control.  Lately, I started saving up the meds and taking several at a time to get the "big buzz".  For days, I rationalized that I was still under control because I wasn't actually using more than normal.  Apparently, I did not fool my doctor because he said he was going to switch me to Darvocet.  In short, I sort of woke up to the fact that I was still a practicing addict and with the help of my friends in AA, made a decision to stop this BS.  

Sure, I think of using from morning until night at this point.  That's the reason for working on it one day at a time.  Luckily, this time I didn't let myself go so long as to suffer any serious physical withdrawals as in the past.  Every day is a blessing and it does get better one day at a time!  J.B.

[Frank]

Tara, 1st congradulations to you and to JB. Secondally, Tara I would like to know how you taperd down. I have been taking 40 mgs of hydros, two tyenols #3 1 mg. of xanax and 6 drinks a day. I've quit drinking before and think that will be doable, however, I have never been a this level of hydro and codiene use. Just how did you taper down? Any advice? Good luck on your last day!!!

Thanks.

Frank.

[Tara to Frank]

Hi Frank,

I was on 4-5 percoset/day and 2-3 ativan/day.  My first 2 days I tried to take just 1 percoset but I could tell it wouldn't do.  So I went to 2 percoset and 1/2 ativan 2x/day, that was a little better but still had shakes.  So I took 2 1/2 percoset per day and 1/2 ativan 2x/day for 6 days.  The next 6 days I took 1 percoset 2x/day and 1/2 ativan per day.  The next week I took 1 percoset in the morn. and 1/2 in the evening and no ativan at all.  Each week I reduced by 1/2 pill and now am down to 1/2 pill per day.  I also went on zoloft for the depression and I take my 1/2 pill right when I wake up so that I can have a good start.   If things get really bad one day I will take another 1/4 percoset or 1/2 ativan.  I don't think I could have made it this far without the zoloft, I had such bad depression I could not even operate, I still get it sometimes.  I feel really lonely in the middle of the night when my husband is sleeping and I cry alot trying to keep him awake so I have someone to talk to but that only lasts so long.  I had a really bad day last week and took 4 percoset (cut up), I tried to throw up and I couldnt I was crying but I wrote here and felt better from Tom's response and I havent had a situation like that since.  Ive heard it is very dangerous for someone to withdraw from alchohol so if I were you I would also research how to get yourself off of that.  I know you've done it before but maybe withdrawing from alchohol and narcotics simultaneously is a higher risk.  I'm no expert though but please be careful.  I think the slower the better. Your body is already taking all of this abuse, why give it anymore by trying to quit too fast?  If it takes a bit longer, who cares, as long as you are making that effort with minimal noticable change to your body per week.

I hope this is somewhat helpful, I know it's long and boring but I wish that someone was as specific with me before I tried to cut back  so drastically.

Take Care,

Tara

[Frank to Tara]

Tara,

Thanks. You made me rethink the alochol postion. I am probably at a very dangeruous point as 1/2 the alochol is hard liquor with beer chasers and wine. God what a mess. I think I will extend the etho w/drawal and then follow your general guidelines with the pk's.

BTW have been trying in vain to get a pen pal with NA. A couple of very  intelligent folks were kind but told me unless I was a prisoner they didn't have a program for pen pals. They did refer me to an individual who seems nice but, well one sandwhich shy of a picnic. He told me he'd done more drugs than me and that I just had to be real and that he loved me. I don't want to rap down on all that, but I think I will just stick to this board (if you all don't mind) for support.

Bad night tonight. Went to my son's soccer game and thought I had enough mints but a mom told me I smelled like booze. I set my own priorities and feel like **** right now.

Anyway, I digress, thanks Tara - would you hang in there with me? I am going to give it a try.

Frank

[Tara to Frank]

Hi Frank,

I hope your night gets better, that would be a tough/embarrasing situation.  I would like to know more about your situation and how your addiction started.  I would definately enjoy having a pen pal through this.  I think it is beneficial for the reason that issues can be discussed thoroughly and more personally with a trusted person.  I read the posts on this site numerous times throughout the day for inspiration and guidance and mostly reassurance, it is one of my priorities.  It is the only place I have where I can explain what I am really feeling about my problem.

My father is an alchoholic and tried to quit once and ended up in the hospital. He is an extreme alchoholic though, you can barely hold a conversation with him.  Tonight is very difficult for me as I do not have to work tomorrow, I have over 30 percoset here and I know I could just take them and would feel great. I am trying hard to resist taking them, I will be here all night to stay with it.  

Tara

[tom to tara and Frank]

Not to but into yours and frank's conversation, but I'd like your interpretation of how I became an opiate addict. I'll give you the abridged version. It's really a most peculiar, story.

I was 17 years old, staying with my dad in his house out in the quaint desert suburbia of Palmdale, California. It was late at night. Keep in mind I had gotten through school as a near teetotaler, with only one embarrassing New Years eve vomiting session from experimenting with vodka and orange juice. I was really quite the straight arrow with no interest whatever in mood-altering drugs. Right before bed, I read a short magazine piece recounting how a teenage boy's escalating use of uppers and downers had culminated in the boy being shot dead in self defense by his father. Not exactly a promotional piece for drug use.
Several months previous to this night, I had bruised a rib in a dirt bike accident and had been issued 30 of the old gray-and-red Darvon Compound 65 pain pills. I had so little interest in them that I had put the bottle in the medicine cabinet without using a single capsule.

As I got ready for bed, I remembered that I had the prescription. Something made me decide to take two of these capsules and then lay flat on my back in the dark, deliberately staying awake to experience their effect.

Well, 30 minutes later, my brain lit up like a pin ball machine and I found myself virtually floating out of body, four feet above the bed it seemed, in a state I can best call "transcendental euphoria." Vivid memories of real situations entwined with fantasies, some sexual, but most of a variety more accurately classified as spiritual liberation from the physical plain and delivery into a warm, golden continuum safely beyond space and time. I felt my body drawn up through the rooftop and into a constellation of vivid stars like one sees while stargazing in desert skies.

Far from feeling intoxicated or "high." I felt as if I was reborn as a luminous, spiritual being. Emotionally, I felt enveloped in a warm gladness and security much as one night experience during the opening chorus of Bach's Saint Mathew passion.
In short, I felt transformed and reborn whole as a spirit that had finally found its place in the great scheme of the universe - far removed from the petty concerns of mortality. In one flash I was remade and the dye of my life was recast. I thought I had found a gateway into a higher reality that became my destiny and reason for living.
If this sounds incredible to readers on the forum, I wholeheartedly understand and share their skepticism. But that's what I experienced the moment that Darvon entered my brain. I awoke the following morning a changed man - and I've never looked back.
All that I've done or that has happened to me began there.

Comments, interpretations, or, god willing, explanations are welcome. What happened to me that night? What does it all mean?

[Frank to Tara]

Tom, I would say it means you clearly have a nerurological disposition to opiates. Vivid story by the way.

My addiction? Pull out the Kleenex and  imagine a small chaplinesqe 14 yr old physically and emotionally abused child sent to boarding school where, in Madri Gras at that tender young age I developed a taste for alcohol. It's never left me. I balanced long periods of abuse with long periods of abstinence until 5 years ago when a confluence of events hit. My mother and father died (ambivalence, guilt etc, my father was in so much pain I had to help him kill himself with morphine overdose), two of my best friends died slow painful deaths of cancer wherein I was on of the main care givers, my daughters best friend got run over by a drunken driver (she was 11) and my dog of 14 years died. All this occurred within 16 months and at a time when I was diagnosed with DJD of my entire spine and several herniated discs. A lean runner, I immediately lost that sport, gained 30 and daily have flashbacks of my father.

None of this justifies my current addictions, believe me I have that insight. Any counseling, any, would require me to stop using which I am willing to do, but not all at once.

There, I feel better. Hope you all don't mind me sharing - I've nowhere else to go.

F.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I don't know who you are, Frank.  But don't ever think that you have no other place to go to get support.  This is but one place of millions in this universe of our's. One thing that I've learned is that we are all connected and that we all have things to contribute to the family of man; some light to add to the light!

In retrospect, Frank, I do know you and you know me.  J.B.

[Gina]

Glad to "hear" the old Tom back. I can totally relate to your experience. The word I use is total "EUPHORIA"! Therefore, I have euphoric recall whenever I try to abstain. The MMT is going well, but I have to admit that the thought of my favorite pills is starting to enter my mind and taunt me. I keep hearing how it would be a better high if I mixed the methadone and pain pills. Very dangerous, I know. I guess I need to get my butt to another NA meeting. I don't want to f@#$ this up since I promised my loved ones I would go inpatient if this failed. I DO NOT want to do that. I just don't understand why I was satisfied for several weeks now I feel tempted again. I guess that's the nature of the beast! My first experience with my addiction was when I was in my 20's and my dad got a script for vicoden from his dentist. He didn't take them so I helped myself claiming to have cramps. I felt exactly what you described earlier. My God I thought no one could ever imagine this feeling. However, I wasn't a fiend at that time so I didn't freak when they were gone. It wasn't until my 30's that it became a problem. I would use them when I came across them (in my 20's) but wouldn't seek them. I remember my girlfriends father was dying of cancer and he had tons of tylenol w codeine 4's. They contain 60mgs of codeine instead of 30. He wasn't using them so my girlfriend gave them to me. Later, she told me she could have kicked herself since she started to "like those pills" later on. Do you know that saying in AA and NA "one is too many and a thousand is never enough" so true! During my op rehab I came across a poem about drugs that started like this. "When you live I only exist but when you exist I live" Of course it is written like the drug or alcohol is talking. It goes on to say "I've always been there for you when you had no one else, I never let you down" etc.. I will try to find it. If anyone else knows of it please tell me so I can get a copy. Tom, take care......

[Tara to J.B.]

Hi JB,

I am very scared to stop taking my last 1/2 pill per day.  I don't think I'm ready.  Especially since it will be on a Monday and I will be working.  I don't know if it's the best time, what if I start to have withdrawals, that's pretty unlikely considering I only take 1/2 - 1/day right?  I wonder if I should wait for a weekend, then I think I am procrastinating the inevitable.  I am very scared and I don't know if I ever want to stop taking my 1/2 pill in the morning to get me going. I have been stressing about this all weekend and last night I had my stomach pains (I usually get them if I am stressed) and I tried to just take a buscopan(anti-spasm)but that did not work so I took a Darvon.  When I actually do stop, what am I supposed to do for pain? If I take percoset wont I become addicted immediately?  I am confused and unsure of my wants at this time but am perfectly aware of my need to rid myself of this.

Please reply with your thoughts,

Tara

[Frank to Tara]

JB, thanks for making me feel at home, I needed to get that off my chest. Tara, my god look at all you have accomplished. If you need to go another week at 1/2 pill per day do it. Then go another week at 1/4 ( if possibe I don't know what mgs. you're dividing)/ But look how close you are ( compared to what i am taking !!). One final piece of advice - Mondays are not good days to stop anything - there is enough pressure associated with Monday (most MI's occur on monday mornings). Finally, don't beat up on yourself - you are doing so well. You inspire folks like me.

Again, I appreciate you and JB being virtual friends. Means a lot this evening.

F.

[Brighty to JB]

I don't know how I missed this thread !!!! I was off line for a while. CONGRATULATIONS MY FRIEND !!!! As you spend your 49th year clean I will spend my 49th praying my ass off for your success. God bless you for all the inspiration and butt honesty you give us... you could have found many reasons to call it quits ages ago... that you live with hope and grace is enough for me. You have beaten the odds so far and I believe you will continue to do so. I think you are teaching me how we are supposed to meet the challenges in our lives. You my dear friend are the oldest soul here and the one who teaches by example, not by preaching. Love and prayers to you. Your friend, Brighty.

[Brighty to Patrice and Tom]

You know my daughter was away in treatment for a long time.. and they went out every night to a meeting... some were AA and some were NA... they even went to bi-polar meetings and sex addiction meetings a couple of times( that one I don't know why for sure, I think one of the kids had this addiction) but mainly AA and NA. This was in Orlando.. and the groups welcomed eachother.. in fact she said the AA was totally accepting and many addicts attended. Now she is home in a little tiny town and thought she'd try some of each.... all the folks in NA said "no" they will not accept you at AA here. She decided to do her thing and went. Well, talk about regional differences... they were right.. there were lots of older...like over 55 or 60 and up folks and they were not thrilled to hear she was an "addict". They tried to be polite and told her they would find her some nice NA meetings. A few told her "honey stay here, it's too risky to go to those drug addict groups"... LOL !!!! My guess is that every region based on it's social and cultural backgrounds has it's own climate. Then she found that the NA group here was nearly 99% pill addicts who could not relate to the life styles or subculture of street drug users. Looks to me like everyone of us still has much to learn.. we are all the same but different. However in the small city 28 miles from here the AA is made up of equal number of addicts and alcholics. Anyway, we all take a different path to healing but as long as those paths lead us home then it's ok. For what it's worth... I have had many counselors refer to my daughter's "sobriety" and she is not an alcoholic so I think the terminology is used broadly... and I think it's correct.. when she was high she sure was not sober. I also know Patrice is right... the life style on the outside is not relevant... it's the empty hole on the inside that makes us all hurt the same. You and Tom are infinitely right about your particular truths... and Tom needs to find what works and we all pray for that also. My beautiful daughter is a "junkie" by some terminology... and I know she is a recovering wonder... so I see from this place all the sensitivities that every one is displaying because we all hurt so bad sometimes.. so let's do this in a spirit of holding eachother up as best we can... God knows how you have all held me up. Love, Brighty

[Patrice]

You are so right.  Like I said, in my city, Fresno Ca, AA will throw an addict out of a meeting.  Now when I happened to be in Lake Tahoe a while back, both AA and NA worked together.  It wont happen in our lifetime, but one day, there will be no distintion (sp) between the 2 groups.  We will join as one.  I truely hope I see it, that would be so tough!!!  Dont ya just love it?  No more arguing on which group is better, and we can all sit in one room, and not be afraid that we will be asked to leave because of our drug of choice.  A drug is a drug, wheather it be liquid, powder, weed, or if it is smoked drank, injected or snorted, we will be ONE HAPPY FAMILY!!!!!    BTW my MMT is working out great(thanks Dan)  I am on 50mg and can stay there as long as I want, I feel normal, not loaded, I am going to my meetings, and I do not crave Heroin at all.  If I ever do crave it ,all I have to do is pull down my pants and feel the lumps from skin popping,  they look like hives that dont itch, I have the on my arms and shoulders too.  I was mutilating my body!!!  Today I feel good and greatful to be alive!!!

Take Care

Patrice

[Brighty to Frank]

I am so moved by your story... like very much. I have been doing research on ibogaine and for some reason it seems that those who are willing to look at their issues have the most success with it. You seem to have a major plus in that you are able to open up and share stuff that makes most of us cringe... you know.. you are sensitive and show it. Lots of men seem to be that way on the inside but not on the outside. Just thought I'd mention it. Best wishes. Brighty

[Brighty to Tom]

I'll try to read your post today if I can get to it. I am home on Mondays for awhile. LOL ... Presidental Medal of Freedom?????How about heroism... living with addiction and not killing the addict is a major personal accomplishment !!:-)) Freedom is breaking the chains of emotional enslavement.... and that I worry and hang on to my fears that this could happen again really means that I am NOT free yet. THIS president..... he's going to fight drugs in Columbia.... he has something for me ?? Anyway, in response to the NA thing... I will tell you that nobody has despised NA more than I have... my daughter made her best drug connections there so you have my understanding..... and the dogmatic stuff... start missing meetings and you have already relapsed ****... that to me is a sort of mind control... for people that have had lives out of control it's a way of getting them to work on stuff and to that end it's good. I think that they are broader and not as dogmatic on some stuff anymore. I learned something though... as soon as my daughter wanted to be well then she found all the good people who were there to help her. We are selective magnets... we attract what we want at given times. I was always against methadone also...and still am very leary of some of it's pitfalls... but it's the lesser evil sometimes.... it's a better choice for those who will (or have) done armed robbery because their lives are out of control. Is it a poor option that is offered to us with all the other enlightened technology out there... yes!!!! I just heard something about LASER treatment for addiction... this guy in Germany is doing it.. there was a bit on the news one night but I missed it and have had to ask people  if they saw it.. maybe I should call FOX news... does anyone here know anything about this ????? Love, Brighty

[Frank to Tara]

Brighty,

Thank you so much for your kind words. I really tried to start a pen pal with NA but it became mundane and just a waste of time. So, you guys are stuck with me. I will be posting as I detox and just to check in.

Brighty I was fascinated by the ibogaine and went on my own net surf turning up simply incredible data about what could be a wonder drug for those of us with insight but little self control. I have been in therapy and was able to stop using during that time. I would love to try this drug, although I need to learn much more and, it appears from both a fiscial and logistical perspective it's off limits.  Anyway, when I have more time I am going to start a thread on it.

Again, thanks for being there today - you helped.

[tom to Brighty]

laser teatment for addiction? W-H-A-T! Correct me if I'm wrong but don't lasers burn things? What are they talking about? A pre-frontal lobotomy (such as in the case of George W. Bush)? Burning up the opiate receptors in my brain? If it has to do with brain surgry, count me out on that one.

[Patrice]

Hi Gina

Do you remeber what Dan has said about drug maintence programs.  Dont quote me, because he wrote it to me a lonf time ago.  If you are on Any kind of detox and you are still craving the drugs, it means you are not being dosed high enough, correct me if I am wrong ok Dan?  All I know is I am on 50mg of methadone a day on the MMT, and I do not crave heroin at all.  Sure I think about it, but the OCBhas left me.  I am very comfprtable where I am at,please Gina if you want to use, tell your counselor,like yesterday!!!!  Our secrets will kill us, be honest with him/her and it will be allright, they will help you, I promise.  I can kick myself in the a$$ for not doing this a long time ago.  I finally feel free to have my life back.  I only have one complaint, they make us be at the clinic by 8:30am on Sat and Sun.   Oh well, I just come home and go back to sleep for a few hours.  Weekends are my only chance to catch up on my sleep, so I do it that way.  Have a great day and keep me posted

Take Care

Patrice

[Brighty to Frank]

Glad you are staying with us. As far as a thread here on ibogaine, well.... don't count on it being welcome on this board mainly because this is a medical help forum. I am sure our comments and opinions are ok but if we start disseminating information on where to go for treatments and recommending it to others I think we will be deleted.  You can try and see what happens. I am afraid that I may be kicked off the board if I say too much on this topic. Ibogaine is a schedule 1 substance in the US and also we would be promoting "alternative" treatments rather than mainstream medical stuff. My observation is that anything alternative is brushed off by the doctors on these boards. There is an ibogaine list you can subscribe to and that's what I do to discuss it. I don't have addiction but I have issues and am considering having a treatment...someday !! :-))Love, Brighty

[Gina]

I can't understand why I had such cravings the other day. When I first started I felt great too. Then after 50mgs, I needed a bit more so they put me up to 55mgs. It seems to work for a week or so and then it seems like I want or need something more. I went to a few meetings and I know that helps but I feel like I need more. I am at 65mgs for the past 6 days. They gave me a urine and I had taken 3 darvocet 3 days before. I know how stupid that was but.. I hate to go any higher but don't know what else to do. Please let me know if you continue to do well at that dose or if you feel the need to go higher after a few weeks. Thanks!

[Tara to Frank]

Hi Frank,

I haven't been around much this week, but I took your advice about not making changes on Mondays and boy were you right!  I had the worst day ever and if I wouldn't have taken that 1/2 pill I think I would have totally blown things out of proportion, in my head at least.

Anyway, how are things going with you? Have you thought any more about the steps you would like to take to recovery?  I read your story above, very upsetting, not to make light of addiction but I would say no wonder you resorted to anything that would just numb the pain.  I can't even imagine trying to deal with so many serious issues in such a short period of time.  I should be slapping myself for coming so close to taking a bunch of pills just because I had a bad day at work.

You probably have many more issues to work out than just your addictions.  I can't imagine being able to get through any of that alone.  Maybe part of your addiction is because you fear that when you do stop, you will then be confronted with the exact issues that drugs/alchohol put away for you.  Hope that's not too personal.

I hope to hear from you soon Frank, and I hope you are doing well!

Take care,

Tara

[Frank to Tara]

Hi Tara,

Boy, blunt you are but right on target. How simple and how long I have been avoiding just that. I don't know what to say. I am slowly cutting down but, I don't think I am doing a very good job. How to say......I've got a lot of responsibilty right now ( as does everyone), presidendt of an angency of 200 people and presenting a national conference, a 15 yr. old son , an 11 year old daughter, a marraige that would ge so much bette without the drugs.

I am just waitin on the than antibuse, onced it gets here I've no excuse but to taper down. The NA pen pal was a bust, really bad. One of their folks said it would be ok if I went to a meeging in a gimmie cap and sunglasses and, hell, I  don't know, maybe it would. But I feel like this is the place for me right not. Brighty's post about the ibogain was very enlightening until I realized that, like so many logical solutions to addiciton, it is not available.

Anyway, I appreciate your concern and Brighty's and I really value this board, this theread. Sad as it seems, it is all I've got right now. But that's ok, right? I feel at home. Maybe we can start something here. Anyway...

Have a good night, thanks again, glad you paced yourself ont he wd"s - way to go! and stay in touch. F.

[Patrice]

Hi Gina


If you still crave the drug you should talk to your counselor.  I want to help, but I am not a doctor and dont want to give you bad advise, so please talk to the doctor or your counselor over at the clinic and see what they suggest .  Please keep me informed on your progress, I care about you girl..  I am doing great on my dose but believe me if I felt like using, I would check with the doctor and up my dose!!!!!!  Talk to you soon

Take Care

Patrice

PS why dont you E mail me?  I dont always get to this site everday and it will be easier to talk via E mail  My addy id ***@****

[Patrice]

Gina

Sorry I wrote my addy down wrong.  It was very late.  here is the real one

***@****

Take Care

Patrice

[Gina]

I did finally tell the nurse and after filling out another form they upped me to 70mgs. Hopefully, this will be it. I know you don't get high. I have had to try and explain how I just feel normal. I remember feeling great in the beginning. I guess that was a liitle bit of a high? I know it will be a long way down. On the positive front I found out my insurance will pay for 70% after a 300.00 deductible. It cost me 250.00 initial intake and 70.00 per week. So now I will only pay 21.00 a week. I hope your treatment stays as good as it is now. Keep in touch. Will note your addy.

[MaryChristine1]

y'all were stupid to get on methadone in the first place. i kicked a 100 dollar a day dope habit cold turkey. the meth clinic is just a pin for the gov to make money off of junkies. and by the way...methadone is a narcotic, and if u go to that place on a daily basis, meanwhile increasing ur dosage once a month, ur STILL using.  dumbasses. at least if ur gonna get high do it right. quit foolin urself.  so congratulations...ull have a 200 mg daily dosage of methadone on a daily in about 30 years when u could kick cold turkey or  take some ******* valium and be done in three days.  

hold'er

[flmagi]

Dear Mary christine,
*******, your answering a post that is 8 years old.  DUH

[MaryChristine1]

sorry dear, but couldnt help myself. i bet that cat is STILL on that methadone mess lol  i just couldnt keep my mouth shut on that one bud

[toxictome]

YOU guys are making me laugh!!!  Thanks!! :D

[DILLY1223]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I came here to get some advice on if darvon was dangerous or not at first taking it and all I saw was a bunch of argueing so if this is what it does I want no part I'll put upn with the pain and sickness so you guys definately stopped me from making a mistake with all of your drama. THANKS!!!!!!!