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Day 2 Subutex Reduction
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Day 2 Subutex Reduction

Hi friends

I am here in the UK and on a subutex script.

For 8 yrs. I was on massive amounts of dihyrocodeine - I guess a mixture of hydro and vicodin - powerful stuff.  I had built up to about 40 x 30mg a day and it was killing me.  Originally started taking it for pain for an old spinal injury and stuck to the 8 per day. But with all addicts we tend to have heavy baggage and kid ourselves we are taking it for pain but really we are taking it to block of all the bad stuff that has happened to us in our lives that we cannot deal with, or can no longer cope with.  We like the euphoria, the energy and being able to block things off.  So we end up addicts.

Beg. of Nov. started on 6mg of subutex.  First 6 weeks no withdrawals and just felt normal but emotionally nothing.  

Started taking vitamins and minerals, good diet and building up a good exercise regime which for me was walking - now 40-50mins. per day.  Stopped taking valium at night.  Then first 6 weeks of year felt fantastic!  Was reducing at 0.4mg per week.  'Natural energy', or so I thought, tremendous peace of mind and a zest for life I had not felt in years.  I thought I was winning all round - the addiction and all my demons.  Night meant pain at night and sleeping on and off all through the night and temp. swinging up and down.  But okay.  Head was clear and I looked a million times better.  Sussed!

Down to 3.6mg and breakthrough pain started so I was told to stay on the 3.6mg and that was 9 weeks ago then the depression started.  And boy oh boy it has been a roller coaster of horrors.  With subutex, people talk of the 'honeymoon period' of feeling great, and then falling down.  Fall I did.  Anxiety attacks, pessimism about the future, no hope, severe anger about the whole of my life, bitterness, hatred, real extremes - the demons truly came to visit, and real, deep, profound unhappiness.  Depression personified.  The odd days bearable inbetween.  Started researching subutex and found this could happen to people who had mental health problems, had not had such a great deal in life through things happening to them such as traumatic car crashes changing their lives and **** childhoods(!), and history of depression.  Had not chosen methadone to get of the pills as knew I did not have the discipline not to abuse it.  So ... what to do?  

The shorter time you are on subutex apparently, the easier the withdrawal at the end, and the less likelihood of PAWS from what I can gather. I just want off it.  Have had 3 days of feeling okay mentally and want to be rid of it.  The dihydro should be gone and now this stuff, yet another addictive chemical needs to **** off too!  

Docs need to tell you about the negative sides of the drugs that help you come off your DOC when they prescribe them.  Had I known what was in store ..... I would never have stopped reducing back in Feb.  Have wasted 2 months letting the subutex get more of a hold.  

Day 2 - am down to 3.2mg.  Need to take into account the half life, storage of subutex in body fat people talk about.  If I feel stable after 5 days I will drop another 0.4 mg.  Get the tablets in 2mg and 0.4mg.  

Prior to starting, I began taking vitamins and minerals and making sure I was on a good diet, which I had let slip during the bad depression, which is when you just don't care.  Had kept up the exercise because my dog needed to still get out and she has helped me a lot.  Taking her to the fields and woods has helped me think a lot of stuff out.  When I don't want to go, I force myself to.  Seeing her enjoyment as she hunts and plays brings me pleasure when nothing else does.  

Would be happy to hear from others - good stories and bad, and those that want to take the same journey.  I will always reply.  

Take care all
- F
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Avatar_m_tn
Try to give yourself a break. I have found that most addicts are really great people, so awesome in fact, they beat themselves up for not being perfect. The problems in the world and life seem to touch the addict in a personal way. You will have the rest of your life to make up lost time, you will have time to be the person you intend to be. I found that I am becoming a better person and living a better life than I thought I was capable of. Stay focused on recovery, all the rest will fall into place. Great work so far. Time heals all things.
65 Comments Post a Comment
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Avatar_f_tn
I'm currently tapering off subs. I'm down to taking 0.12mg in the morning and 0.25 mg at night. I have been on them since the end of feb. I can tell you exactly what I did if you message me. I hope the depression lifts and you start to feel better soon.
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I can say suboxone same thing as subutex saved my life at the same time I can say I had to learn on my own the right way to use and get off suboxone because like u said most doctors do not know enough about this med and prescribe unreal amounts to ppl and keep them on it WAY TO LONG. A tiny amount of suboxone goes A LONG WAY

Good Luck and Godspeed
ABritt
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Avatar_f_tn
Thank you ABritt.  Docs should know more about what they are prescribing and give good all round advice!  They ARE the docs after all!  
We have to all carry on learning and tell our stories to each other to help each other.  
If it wasn't for places like this to come on to we would be lost I reckon and in the dark.  
Feeling fine at the moment but it's early days.
3.00 mg yesterday and it will be 3.00 mg today.  If any ill effects will be felt, it will be tommorrow.  Reckon I will be okay until the 2mg and dipping below that, but determined to carry on - slowly and carefully.  The reductions will get slighter when I get to 2mg.  
It seems in the US that you guys get prescribed enormous amounts of subutex or suboxone for relatively 'light' addictions - have been amazed at what the docs over there prescribe!  
Good luck. Peace and light
- F
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Hey, i got on subutex back in November 2012, because i was addicted to pills about 7 yrs ago, which turned into a heroin addiction for the last 7 yrs. Well at the end of October i found out i was pregnant, so i tried to quit on my own and could not do it. I called my local health dept and they tried to push methadone on me very hard and i said that it was my last option, and finally found a dr that would take me, and he put me on subutex 16mg a day, and i haven't wanted to use the entire time I've been pregnant, it has curved all cravings and thoughts for me. I have also gained spirituality since being clean off of the drugs. I have weaned down on my dose and on 4mgyou now and 40 wks and 3 days preganant, and hope to have her this weekend, if she doesn't come by Tuesday i will be induced Wednesday. I know that subutex has saved my life, and i know i have made a tremendous amount of changes in my life aswell, and plan to wean off completely at some point, but was told not to start that process while pregnant or too soon after she is born, just as a precaution, so in the case that i get so stressed or have post partum depression, i don't use. So all in all i think subutex is a good drug to get off of opiates, as long as you make changes in your life aswell. And as addicts most of us have other disorders such as anxiety, depression, bi-polar...etc and have also get those issues addressed aswell, getting them addressed is just as important as addressing the opiate issue, because there is no way to get/ stay well if we have other issues brewing. Thanks for sharing your story! :)
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Avatar_m_tn
Subs saved my life also, but I see clearly the danger of using drugs to get off drugs. Buprenorpnine is so strong, and many doctors say there's no withdrawal, which is obviously not true. For those who have been on subs for years, I've found that dropping every 21 days is the easiest, if you have the time. Your last dose of subs is less than 1% in the body at 21 days. It seems as if people can taper faster down to 2-4mg, but many slow it down below that. Skipping days at .25mg or .5mg is common also. Ask your doctor about anything you want to change, I am only sharing from my experience and those I have known. I firmly believe that having a plan and following through is crucial in tapering. You are getting so close. Keep active as you have been and keep us posted.
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Hi MaK
Thank you for sharing your story.  You are certainly doing great and made the right choice not choosing methadone when pregnant!
4mg is a really good dose to be on for now and I would certainly say go very, very slow after your baby is born when you go for reducing.
My son is 16.5 but I well remember the days of how very tired I was with a little baby.  It's amazing how much work they are!  Additionally your hormones will be all over the place to be completely stable before consider reducing for sure.  However, there is no harm is say reducing by 0.2mg when you are home and everything is okay.
Are you breastfeeding?  If not, then go ahead with reducing down to 2mg.  But first, get prepared.  Stock up on Vit B complex, cranberry vits, zinc, and look at the Amino Acid Protocol on the Health Pages on here before you start on any reduction. And of course drink water.  If water bores you put a little bit of ribena or orange squash in.  If exercise bores you too then walk each day which of course you can do with baby in a pram!  
Many of us who become addicts do so because of underlying reasons and depression, and lack of endorphines that make us feel naturally stable and happy.  The Amino Acid Protocol will certainly help with that.  Preparation is all!  
I guess the big thing for you is whether you are breastfeeding or not, and the effects on your baby not receiving any subutex?  Not something I know about but your medical professionals will be able to advise you about.
I wish you all the very best of luck with your soon to be birth, and much, much happiness with your new baby.  
People on here are absolutely great.  So supportive and helpful.  They are really seeing me through, and they will do the same for you.  Keep us all posted.  
If you get down, don't worry - it will pass.  Up and down, but you WILL win!
Love and light
- F
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Thank you so much Weaver71.  
It is great to hear of people who have been through it.  I am constantly amazed at the lack of real information and experience that doctors have.  You try and tell the professionals about what you have read about REAL people's experiences and they just dismiss it.  Read research papers and nothing is mentioned about the downside of subs whereas practically everyone here knows the downside of them - the depression and the way that you really have to plan and look at diet and natural supplements to counteract the negative effects of coming off them.  
It is funny how you are not warned at the time of being prescribed them that it is going to be so hard towards the end.  You go off, start taking them and it's happy days.  You think all your problems are over.  Then reality hits.  I just thank God I have found this site as it does me the world of good.  There is so much useful practical information and I have been able to prepare myself properly and talk to people.  In other words get proper support which is not available from the professionals.  
As a Brit, I find that Americans are a lot more open and spiritual about things.  They are not ashamed to talk about spiritualism and God and the help they gain from faith and I find that very refreshing.  Mind you, I love America!  Wish I could live there!  I find people a lot more open and willing to talk about things.  There are some Brits on here, but mostly Americans so thank you all for being so sharing.  
Day 5 and it's 3.0mg.  Tomorrow, if I feel fine it will be 2.8mg!  That will be a 0.8mg drop!  Mega!
Love and light
- F
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Thank you! Yes i am planning on breastfeeding, and my drs said that it will help her a lot when she is first born to help with any withdrawls, which hopefully she wont have to go through! They alsojust said itthe was completly fine towhen breastfeed, Keep her/us in your prayers for no withdrawls and healthy little girl!! They would be greatly appreciated! And thank you for your story and response its always nice to hear from others! And i will most definitely keep all posted on little MaKailyns status!
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HI all!

A sub taper IS doable, the key is a SLOW and gradual reduction when you get to the low doses (about 2-4mg and below).  The other thing that people do wrong that ends up keeping them in a constant state of w/d is to drop doses quickly, with very little time in between.  

A stabilization period (usually at least 2 weeks) in between dosage reductions REALLY makes the process easier, as you're not constantly in w/d, and it's less of a shock to the system.  People are in such a huge rush to come off sub, which is the wrong attitude, IMO.  It's totally normal for it to take several months to completely taper off once the lower doses are reached.  

I see a lot of people say, "Yeah, but won't it be harder the longer I'm on it?"  If you're talking a matter of months, no.  If you're talking many years, maybe.  Honestly, with sub, the more gradual, the better.  Again, this is at the lower doses.  Most people have very little trouble dropping down at higher doses, even with greater dosage reductions.  The lower doses is when w/d will become more evident, and where w/ds become more bothersome.

Good luck to you all, and remember to work on your aftercare!!
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All the very best MaK.  Keep us all posted when your little one is born!  You are doing so very well.  
The miracle and love for your baby will make you even stronger.
Godspeed lovely.  
All blessings
- F x
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Thank you so much nursegirl - g8 advice.
I started tapering fro 6mg at 0.4mg every 2 weeks.  Got stuck on 3.6mg for 8 weeks cos of breakthrough pain whereas I SHOULD have been advised to carry on going regardless!  With getting stuck - got the awful depressions!  The past 6 days I have been feeling great again and started off my reduction at 0.4mg reduction for 3 days, then 0.2mg every 3 days and so far so good.  By tomorrow I will be on 1mg from when I started !!
Okay, I know when I reach the 2mg and under this is a bit of a 'danger point' for some, but as I didn't start on a massive dose, and am reducing every 3 days i.e. the half life time, I am hoping that the effects will be bearable and my strength of mind will keep me going.  However, if I get WDs at all I will stop, and stabilize.  I find it interesting that we all seem to react in different ways to it.
I read a lot of fantastic and useful stuff on medhelp about preparation - vitamins, amino acid protocol and feel this is essential.  Diet and exercise (to whatever extent you can do it).
Everyone has to also bear in mind that they are also quite 'fragile' and keep negative things and people out of their lives as this can set you back.  You need to keep mind strong.  Normal, everyday life problems can seem enormous when you are in recovery so it is luck as well as all of the above.
Thank you again for your input.
All the best
- F
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Hi there
I've dropped 1mg in 9 days and today am on 2.4mg.  Dropping 0.2mg every 3 days (the half life time which is talked about).  As I've only been on it for nearly 6 months I hope it is not going to be too bad as I get below the 2mg mark but I know this tends to be a danger mark for the WDs.
From yest started getting a bit of the hot and colds and my stomach a little bit looser (excuse the bluntness!)  
Mood has absolutely fine these past 10 days and pain levels are strangely quite good.  I expected the opposite.  As long as nothing bad happens around me, I will be fine I think.  Sticking to the vits and minerals and L-Tysorine too now; will also get 5HPT, and of course exercise.  
Have found a distraction too which I believe will help.  Re-doing part of my garden. Lost interest in most things the last few years due to the addiction  and that has now come back so have given myself a project to do, so weather permitting, will be at it each day.  Our weather in the UK is so rubbish nowadays.  At nearly May we should be having good temperatures but today have had rain, sun and hail! And only 9 degrees!  So glad doing this reduction coming into summer as it just makes things brighter all round.
It's really good for people like me to see a success story like yourself.  Thank you.
- Fee
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Fee, you are doing great and i am really happy that you are finding motivation to start doing things again !!!
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480448_tn?1374148179
Sounds like you're doing great!  Good for you!  It's a good plan to slow it down if you start feeling much worse!

Keep us updated!  :0)
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Avatar_m_tn
Yeah, you may want to slow it down a little below 2mgs. The half life is a good measure for reduction, but remember that your last dose of sub is in your system for 21 days. People on subs for years have a much easier time of tapering in 21 day intervals. You're doing great, and 6 months is a while, but nothing like multiple years. So much of the sub detox is mental and emotional, stick to your plan and reach out for support at every phase. You will be amazed at how high the subs where making you. I felt sober at first, but then I could feel a block between my mind and heart. You are doing the most important thing you could be right now. Keep up the good work.
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Thank you Laurel!  It feels great to have motivation back in life and it is really helping.  Exercise and distraction is such an important element.  Thought I would be an empty headed numpty forever at one time.  Thank you for your words of encouragement!
- Fee x
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I will slow down if WDs get worse, for sure.  Jackets are going on and off, covers on and off at night, but nothing like I've had in the past.  I will keep your advice closely in mind.  Thank you so much.

- Fee x
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I found it really interesting that you said that a lot of the sub detox is mental and emotional.  Thank you for sharing that.  Every bit of help and information is so very, very welcome and appreciated.  
Your encouragement is invaluable and I really thank you for it as you have 'been there and done it'!  
It's good to not feel pathetic and a 'victim' which was alien to my character, but which is what becoming an addict made me.  I am mad at myself for being an idiot and have wasted so many years and want to win the battle!  Not kidding myself that the 'downs' will come again during this process (as they did when I was stuck on 3.6mg between Feb. until 121 days ago - really, really depressed, not just a little blue) but will continue doing the best I can while I feel angry at myself and the drugs and tough it out!
All the best to to you, and thank you.
- Fee x
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Avatar_m_tn
Try to give yourself a break. I have found that most addicts are really great people, so awesome in fact, they beat themselves up for not being perfect. The problems in the world and life seem to touch the addict in a personal way. You will have the rest of your life to make up lost time, you will have time to be the person you intend to be. I found that I am becoming a better person and living a better life than I thought I was capable of. Stay focused on recovery, all the rest will fall into place. Great work so far. Time heals all things.
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Wise words Weaver.
I agree with you that most addicts are great people.  Most have tough lives but in the end still manage to get up with smile.  That take spirit and love within themselves.
On with the garden project again today.  Hot and colds not too bad.  Watery eyes and sniffles but hey no big deal.  Dropping to 2.2mg tomorrow Yee ha!
Keeping the faith for no big hiccups for when I go under the danger zone of going under the 2mg.
Thank you for your support
- Fee x  
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have a good day, flame.... !!!!
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Bless you honey! You too! The pain is hassling me today - wish it would go away!  x
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Just too let some people know. 2mg is still quite a bit. I was the hardest of hardcore heroin, dilauidid, fentanyl iv user, and 2mg daily I would never experience WDs.
The difference between 8mg and 4mg is well about 4 right? But the difference between 4mg and 0mg is really about 4,000
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Oh no I'm not getting pain from WDs - an old spinal cord injury and have overdone it recently so no sleep and some screamin'!  Too stubborn and don't like limiting my life then end up paying for it hard so in bed for 2 days.
Only WDs on 2.2mg are mild - coldness, sniffles and problems with bladder and started getting rumble tum, the latter of the two gets more of a prob in situations like this for people who start WDs.  Dropping 0.2 mg every 3 days and know it will get tough under 2mg as paying for 8 yrs of addiction.  You may not get WDs on 2mg cos you were hardcore but other mates. equally hardcore, did.  Every individual reacts differently to drugs as I am sure you must be aware of which is why some people make it or die from very little.
Hope you are doing good.
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Hi Weaver71
Down to 2mg from tomorrow.  Been doing 0.2mg every 3 days for the past 22 days now.  You suggested slowing down at 2mg.  Please may I ask your advice, if possible, how much I should slow down.  Been feeling okay - just a bit cold and a bit sniffly etc. so very mild WD symptoms indeed.  Maybe go 4 days at a time and see how it goes.
Any advice/suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Thank you.
All the best
- Fee
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Avatar_n_tn
The half life is so long, when you take 2mg a day for an extended period eventually for anybody it will have all their receptors filled. Everyone I know can stay outta physical WDs using that 2mg doseage..... Thats if they didn't start initially at higher doses though.

But anyone tapering once you hit 2mg definitely slow it down. Like .2mg every 10-12 days.
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Thank you - that's very useful to know!  Been on subs for 6 months now.  Been tapering down from Started at 6mg 6 months ago.  Been tapering down from 3.6mg now for 3.5 weeks at 0.4mg every 3 days, with only very mild WDs - feeling cold basically but feeling fine mentally.  
Will try a 0.4mg drop tomorrow and if I DO feel bad, depending on how bad, I will try and stick it out.  My key worker wanted me to be down to 2mg by the 13th anyway.  
I just wanted to beat that amount as I need to be getting on the bu trans patches for pain and the amount of subs I am is way less analgesia wise than the 10mc I will be put on.  
Will post on progress as it useful for other people if I am successful.
Thank you again.
- F
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You may have to drop every two to three weeks if the symptoms get bad. People on subs for years seem to do best with 21 days between drops, that's how long the last dose stays in your system. I used subs for a short taper, but. I started to feel it at about 1mg and was dropping every 3 days. At.5, the symptoms where getting bad and I jumped. I wasn't as educated on subs then. Going too fast has many draw backs. Once the WD gets bad, it's hard to get stable again. It takes some time. There's no disadvantage for going too slow. I know that when you are ready, you are ready, but remember that you get the rest of your life back and all the time you need to heal yourself and anything that was effected by opiate use. I'm not saying that you need to be on subs for years, but give yourself a break if you need it. Slow and steady wins the race. Can't tell you how many times I was told that. I'm pretty hard headed, so I had to screw up a lot. That's what I love about this forum. Nobody seemed to give up on me and kept reminding me that I'm worth it. So if any of my mistakes and hard-headed personality can help, let me know, because you are worth it. You have a good outlook and obvious determination, congrats on your progress so far.
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Hey Fee.....have been following you here......you are doing GREAT on your taper.  I have enjoyed reading all you have shared!

I was one of those that went ON subs knowing "nothing" and jumped off at a ridiculously HIGH dose in ignorance, as well.  So.....it is a delight to read this thread and see that you are doing SO GOOD!  Of course, I have learned A LOT about subs since then and am always glad to read about others who equip themselves before, during and after.  So good on ya!

Also, wanted to ask you what a bu trans patch is?  I am always interested in learning about ways to deal with chronic pain.  So, if and when you get time....can you share what that is w/me please?

Blessings to you~
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Hi Weaver71
Thank you yet again for words of encouragement and real, real common sense and inspiration.
You make me think each time and keep my feet on the ground!  
This really jumped out at me: 'Going too fast has many draw backs. Once the WD gets bad, it's hard to get stable again. It takes some time.'  So, have decided to cut down to dropping at 0.2mg instead of 0.4mg and heed your warning.  
It is only because of good people like yourself that others can learn to do it the right way.  My drugs outreach worker is young and inexperienced (and lacks empathy!) which is why I came on the Forum.  
'Slow and steady wins the race'.  Love it!
All the best to you Weaver, and thank you so much.
Have a great day
- Fee
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Hi clean-in-ks
Thank you for your kind words.
I presume maybe that you have a chronic pain condition too?
Bu trans patches would you believe are a bupe too!  I am not feeling too cool about going onto another bupe when I want to get off them!  
My pain is chronic moderate to severe.  Severe if I do my exercise(physio!) by walking my dog each day and the usual housework etc.  Also have a teenager.  But I NEED to exercise or I will seize up and it is not good physically or mentally to give in to your disabilities.  Have enough left to walk with and darn well walk I will!  
Used to be a cross country runner and one of my favourite pastimes was running down beaches.  Used to travel round the world and lived in a lot of other countries too (hot and tropical not like the long wintery UK yuk!)   I do not like to be defeated!  
Walking my dog out in the fields and woods was a really important part of my process in tapering off the subs, building myself up, physically, and very importantly mentally, again (as an addict I became a vegetable in every way i.e. lost myself but was a darned good actress at covering it up so I didn't get 'discovered').
Due at pain clinic 12th June -long waiting lists here although of course we are lucky to have the NHS.  My doc has said I will have to be an opiod for the rest of life because of the extent of spinal nerve pain I have.  I just wish there was another way.  I am good at mind over matter in a lot of areas but when the pain is so bad I am laid up in bed, like I was for 2 days last week due to overdoing it (stubborness!), I get quite mad about it.
I have got to do a lot of work on my mind and deal with new limitations in life.  
I also want my docs to put more of an effort in to looking at pain relief without using opiates.  I do NOT want opiates.  
You can read up on bu trans patches on the internet.  I presume they have them in the US?  
All I can say from my own experience is that I tried many opiates (under medical supervision at the time, before I became an addict) and dihydrocodeine was the one I went for as it made my whole body feel like liquid - my joints even didn't hurt, let alone my spine and legs, and gave energy and euphoria too when I started upping the dose on my own and became addicted.  
avisg's on this Forum has done an interesting pain equivalent dose (oral) which you may find interesting.  I did, especially as breakthrough pain came at a certain point when I was tapering off subutex.
I find it amazing the massive amounts of sub that people in the US are put on for some pretty minor addictions in some cases too!  And on both sides of the pond we are definitely NOT given enough info. about just how powerful this drug is!
Clean, I will definitely let you know what the pain clinic comes up with, and if there is anything new that is happening i.e. alternatives to opiates that can work.  
Please feel free to message me about the cause of your pain and see if I can give any advice.  I am an old hand at pain!
All the very best to you, and may the sun shine on you
- Fee
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Avatar_m_tn
Bu trans is the patch that comes in 5, 10, and 20 micrograms of bupe that is most common in chronic pain therapy. You shouldn't be able to feel it, but hopefully it will help with pain. I mean, the strongest patch is 1/50th of a 1 milligram. There may be stronger one's now. My info comes from the British inventors of buprenorphine, 6 months ago. Let us know how it works.
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Will certainly let you know how the bu trans patches go Weaver - thank you.  Funnily enough I have spent the day researching it.  I am meant to be staring on the 10ug/h which is half the amount of dihydrocodeine I was legally scripted before I started overtaking it!  
I have quoted from a table regarding equivalent dosages to my doc who I'm unable to see for at least 2 weeks.  I am practically at the stage now where I should be switching to it.  Hoping that she will put me o nthe 20ug/h as life is so limited at the moment and driving me nuts!  I have to accept the new limitations without the excess drugs but I am not the type who is willing to sit around.  Need to be out there, not starting to cry if I walk an eighth of a mile!  These patches cannot be 'abused' by taking extra opiods on top or you can get yourself into trouble, and anyway, I don't intend to go down that road again.  The paying back is way, way too much!
Take care. Fee
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The WDs and generally feeling unwell are getting me down now the past week.  The 2mg mark.  Down to 1.8mg - on the 4th day.  Got to make it to 1.6mg by Monday.  Cold most of the time and headaches.  
Would very much like not have to be doing things like all the usual domestic stuff, overseeing revision for important exams for son, looking in on mother. Got hospital appointment today (nothing to do with all this).
Should be switched, technically to the bu trans next week but it is so ridiculous that I will be on half the amount of analgesia that I was originally scripted for, before I became addicted.  I really hope that my GP listens to all I have said to her in my letter (as I couldn't get into to see her).  If not, I am going to continue with these WDs for some time, as well as very, very little pain relief.  
Feeling a bit pee'd off today to say the least!  
- Fee
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Yeah, I'm still working on my resentments toward the medical field. They are justifiable resentments, but those feelings only hurt me. They don't even know or care how I feel. We can't rely on them. We lean on each other and rebuild our control over our lives. I'm sorry you are dealing with added struggle, but you can do it. No matter what other people do, you will find your way. It was suggested that I keep watch on my expectations. I had to make sure I wasn't setting myself up for disappointment. Just wanted to encourage you to focus on recovery and those things you do have control over. The world keeps putting distractions in front of us, and our brains search for excuses to get what it wants. Withdrawal symptoms are hard enough to deal with, the exhaustion and fog make us vulnerable. Decision making is very difficult. I hope something gives soon, it will all be worth it, no matter what oath leads you to freedom. You have come a long way. Congrats on your progress. Progress over perfection, ever reminds us to put principles above personalities. Keep your eyes on the prize.
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You have a wonderful way with words Weaver!  And wise ones too - thank you again for your encouragement.  
Resentment towards the medical field is rife.  They nearly killed me after my accident three times and I survived each of their **** ups.  And it has been an endless round of ineptitude, miscommunication and a sense that 'juniors' are i the seat. The experience of how my addiction has been handled has left me speechless!  In the past month my 'outreach worker/prescribing nurse', the one meant to be supporting me, has not even sent a text in the past 4 weeks to see how my reduction is going?  I am going to educate her in the end when this is all over!  For the good of others.  The drug service I went to were great - mostly used to prescribing meth but because they had never dealt with someone like me before, I was discharged after 6 weeks.  
It was presumed - aah pain, led to painkiller addiction (never mind the fact they were dihydrocodeine - about 1.5 times strength of codeine, had additional addictive factors, had got up to 40 x 30mg a day and had been addicted for 8 years.  
You will laugh at this one - overdosed on painkillers and Soma - not so I was out cold but my doc came round as my interfering mother decided I sounded very weird on the phone.  I went through hell CT in hospital and was treated like junkie scum.  In those days it was early in my addiction and I was quite ignorant, and was masking many underlying problems with the pills, not just pain.
After 4 days and back at home I could barely do anything and you can imagine the paranoia, panic attacks.  My doc sent round a photocopy about 'anxiety' attacks and I was left to it.  Needless to say, I sourced my DOC as I was a mental and physical wreck. And the pain clinic shrugged their shoulders a few months later and put told her to script me back on them too!
That was when I needed help.  I was in denial, all alarm bells were ringing but I might as well have not existed.  And I would have not have wasted 5 more years of my life.
Still Weaver, I think sometimes it helps to get mad at them, to feel mad, as it drives you on.  Anger adds to the determination!
Took my dog out yesterday and back did fine, and cooked dinner afterwards.  Done in afterwards and glad to get to bed.  But hey, the day ended up better.  
Only have to see my mother for a while today (she now has early Alzheimer's), then I will escape to the fields and woods with my dog.  Son is at a party.  So .... all going well, a light day from early afternoon and some time out and another taper.  1.7mg today and tomorrow.  1.6mg on Sat.
Have a good weekend.  Bet you have got lots of wind and rain coming like I have here!
Thank you again. All the best to you
- Fee
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Hi, keep hanging in there, sounds like you are beating it, good for you and congratulations. You are dealing with a lot, your son and a sick mom. That's hard on you, but keep strong like you are and you will find life will be easier to cope with in time. Darn doctors sure do make problems, and sometimes they need to be told they are wrong, for sure. Good for you for writing the letter, good wishes with that. Doctors gave my fiancé morphine, no problem with them. Crazy doctors, here are your pain pills, have a nice life. He's been clean over 19 months cold turkey. He took antihistamine pills afterwards, he said they helped him sleep and then he gave them up too. We do eat more sugary foods now, but we are clean. We keep very busy now and that helps lots.
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Hey f! You were saying you wanted to know how it baby was...she's doing great, no withdrawl (withdrawal) symptoms, she is 32 weeks and 21 day old now! I am so happy she didnt have to experience any withdrawls at all! I think subutex is a way more effective drug to put opiate dependant mothers on, opposed to methadone. There is more of a chance for babies to go through withdrawal on methadone i think for sure! You had asked is i was going to breastfeed, and they would not let me in the hospital because when i was in there i had to get a ç-section because i would not dialate past 7 1/2 cm so they decided to do c-section ;and when they put the spinal in my back, the anesthesiologist put it up too high in mymy spine and i stopped breathing, and they had to put me under general anesthesia,so they told me i was unable to breastfeed. And so she started on bottles and formula, and when i tried to change her over she didn't take well. But everything is great now, I'm okay and most importantly she is okay and happy and healthy! But i remembered you had said you wanted an update on her and everything!
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I know what you mean about the positive side of anger, it's there to create an action to fix it. All are feelings are there to help guide us, away from danger, toward our loved ones, or to change the system. As long as my responses are positive and don't cause me to hurt myself, anger is a powerful tool. I found it better to deal with some of those things after detox. I have generations of resentment toward doctors. My dad has polio. They gave him morphine from age 1 to 12 and cut him off CT. He was so high as a kid he just sat there and put puzzles together for most of his youth. Had I not been watching, a doctor would have let my son die on the table. When I asked for help, the doctor told me to go get more methadone in the street and start tapering, I almost killed myself with that advice,. Was told I had to be on subs for 2 yrs for them to work. I've seen more bad advice than good come from doctors. I now see that has been my luck, not all doctors are mindless money ******. It took a long time to admit that. I have friends that are doctors that really care, that has helped. Anyway, you're doing great at the -2mg level. Glad to see your progress, no matter what else is going on. I hope your anger produces the fruits of change. It keeps changing for me. I was angry at me, doctors, society, pretty much everything for a while. Now I've grown to see those doctors as sick, like me, but their drug of choice is power or money. That's the only way I can explain the insanity so many suffer. I want to be angry at injustice, and I am. I don't take it personal anymore or point my finger at one group or person. I'm angry about the situation, all of it. I try to do something each day to change it. Sometimes I feel better about it than others, but at least I'm no longer part of the problem, that's progress. You're doing great, keep us posted as you drop, you're getting so close to the end. I'm excited for you. Rock on!
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Couldn't believe reading about your father - poor kid he was at that time.  Cruelty!  
And your son?  Boy oh boy!  Mine is 17 this Sept. and although he doesn't need a lioness (very rarely!), he's always had one if needed. Unless you had learned that doctors are not Gods i.e. not all are good(!) then you may have not saved your son.  Nothing is like the love and instinct we have for our child or children.  Mine is an eternal optimist and he makes me laugh! If it wasn't for him, I cared so little about myself or anybody else that I would have given up.
I hid everything from him but he knows the whole story now and is very logical about it and happy I have addressed it and am dealing with it, and is proud of me.  He carries on having a happy great life with his friends and is doing well at school.  I am lucky.  Will miss him when he goes to college in 2 yrs!    
I am astounded a doc told you to get meth from the street - how ignorant and dangerous was that!
You are obviously a very strong character to have made it through in spite of the idiots you encountered along the way.  
I enjoy being angry at injustice, as I like to care, and at least sign a Petition, write a letter - not be a potatoe head who wants the world to revolve around me.  It never will, never has and why should it?  Plenty, plenty of people who are in much worse positions.  
Feel lucky to be able to have support and encouragement and have got strength and determination back.
Hey Rock On is something I have been saying since my teens!  Good to hear someone else to say it!
Thank you and take care.  And Rock On!
- Fee
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Are you tapering under the supervision of a doctor or doing it yourself? If latter, i would go talk to a proffessional about this.
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Do you mean UK? I am not being funny but I take offence to that. What may seem a 'light' addiction to some may not be to a person hoing through it who has / is spending hundreds of pounds, who has tried Weaning off n tapering etc, is not ready to stop but knows they have to as the 'light addiction' is causing problems with family, relations, money and so on....
Plus a lot of people have progressed from these 'light addictions' to heavier addictions like heroin
So yes doctors put people on subs for 'light addictions' n for a lot of people it has proven successful. Everyone is different n what works for one person may not work for another.
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Thats disgraceful. Mind you when i saw the drug n alcohol team they told me that, until I get a keyworker, to continue having lots of nurofen plus (codeine) my parents were disgusted about this. Professionals should be careful what they tell people.
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Hiya - i don't know you or your story but just to say how very pleased I am that your baby is well. Wishing you bothall the best n great health xxx
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Hiya I'm pleased for you that subs saved your life. Sorry to sound nosey but can i ask where you're from?  Reason for asking is I am waiting to be allocated to a keyworker n hopefully go on subs n i know you in the UK you go to the pharmacy every day n they watch you consume it.
Is this different in the USA? Because i often hear of people getting it as scripts n tapering off it themself (Please know I'm not judging) but this sounds frightening to me. The idea of getting it from the pharmacy daily n reducing slowly with a health care profession, sounds much more safer plus it's in a different environment to where the person uses so less of a trigger.

To me giving an addict something to wean off their addiction in scriptform, that has the potential to be abused, sounds extremely dangerous n is counterproductive to the reason for sibs in the first place.

Evey x

Evey x
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I don't blame you for being honked off!  It doesn't sound like you're receiving a whole lot of support from the people who are supposed to be helping you, that's a shame.  Instead of waiting to the end, why not express how you feel now?  Maybe things could improve a little bit, so you feel more supported?  You can also seek out others sources of support, in the form of NA/AA meetings, private therapy.  Everyone here who attends those kinds of meetings (NA/AA) report that they benefit from being with others who understand, and getting a sponsor is a wonderful idea also.  You can never do too much to work on your recovery...so do some seeking and see what other services/resources you can find.

What you said about people being prescribed Sub for more "light" addictions is all too true, unfortunately.  You're absolutely right, and people who REALLY understand sub will totally get what you're saying.  I've watched many people successfully complete a sub program, but I've also seen people who came from other clinics, who were put on insanely high doses of sub for a very "small" habit, struggle unnecessarily.  

By "small" I don't mean unimportant, or insignificant as any level of addiction needs addressed, but there ARE circumstances where a replacement drug therapy, like sub, isn't indicated.  If a person is taking 3 or 4 Vicodin a day, going to subs is like killing a fly with a shotgun, it's insane.  SO many people are just not educated about subs, enough to understand just how strong it is...and a little goes a LONG way.  Not to mention that sub is typically a little rougher to come off of than a full agonist opiate.  Sub can be a great tool used in recovery, but from my experience, no sub doctor should take in people with minimal usage, and actually, there ARE standards for sub treatment that if they were more closely observed, wouldn't allow for someone with a much smaller habit to be admitted into a program.  It's really compounding the problem for that person, IMO.  The Sub doc I worked for wouldn't take patients like that.  Her rule of thumb was that, if according to the equivalency chart, the dose of sub needed to cover the usage was under 2mg, that Sub wasn't right for that person.  The only exception I saw her make was people who had relapsed after stopping sub and had just returned to using, even if it was a small amount...or if it was someone with a long standing history of relapse, and those exceptions were rare.

Just remember that a slow and gradual taper off Subs is the key.  Usually the w/d doesn't get too bad until you are at the lower doses (about 2mg or so).  That's when it's important to really go slow, and allow for a stabilization period in between dosage reductions.  You're at the lower doses, so you may feel some more w/ds.  PLEASE give yourself at least 2 weeks in between reductions to allow yourself to stabilize.  If you're constantly reducing every few days, you will be in a constant state of acute w/d.  The stabilization period really helps a lot.  Some people even choose to stay at that next dose for longer, to give themselves a break.  The people who were the most successful coming off Sub that I saw took their time, especially towards the end.

Lastly, the anger issue.  You're right in that sometimes anger can be cathartic, but it can also be self defeating.  Anger doesn't exist alone, without another driving emotion...usually fear, or uncertainty.  Allowing anger to continue, or to feed anger can often times make you feel worse...so just keep that in mind, and try to limit your reactions to the anger and don't feed it unnecessarily.  When you feel angry, go for a nice brisk walk (or run if you're in shape)...it helps to get those endorphins pumping, that will help the anger feelings.

Keep doing what you're doing, and keep working your recovery...it's ALL in your hands.  So, even if the professionals are kind of dropping the ball, YOU can seek out other resources to make up for where they lack.  Don't let them discourage you.  While it stinks that they don't do a better job, don't let that discourage you, or sabotage your recovery, okay?  Keep up the GREAT work...and keep posting.
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You have a point. If someone was taking 3 - 4 vicodins per day then taper / cold turkey would be best n if flame was referring to 'light' addictions in this respect then she is quite right in saying putting people on subs would be silly. To be honest I'm not sure as to what the criteria is, or how goes about, being prescribed subs in the USA. So really I cannot comment any further re the matter.
Flame i wish you all the best in successfully weaning off subs n beating your addiction
Evey x
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Hey e, no your not being nosey lol i put my story up for a reason, hopefully it could help someone. But yes im from maryland usa and we get scripts of them, but my doctor gives me one for a month and i check in with him once a month aswell and he gives me a urinalysis aswell to make sure all the levels are the right level, i know there are some docs that dont care and give ppl scripts that are still using which is so stupid to me and dangerous! But thank you for the well wishes, and feel free to msg me if you have any other questions or concerns!! :)
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I'm glad that worked for you but I'd really hate that as I know I would abuse them n thus replace one addiction for another. I like the idea of going to the pharmacy each day because it's being controlled n there are no nice associations with it eg 'laying in bed taking pills.'  
On the downside if there were day trips / holidays I'm not sure how that works but all n all i would prefer that way as I've proved myself that I can't control myself with codeine at least.
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Yeah and i was the same way at one point, i would abuse them and sell them to get what i really wanted...which was heroin but this time around becoming sober while pregnant and being so hopeless, has changed my outlook on everything, yes i think about getting high still sometimes but i know where getting high takes me...and thats, homeless, hopeless, and a lot of other things and i just know that i can't live a productive life while getting high. I think that it's great that you know what is best for you, and know your boundries and limitations! That is half the battle!
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Hi nursegirl

Great to hear from you.  Hope you are well and thank you as ever for your continued support on this Forum!

What you say makes total sense.  And you obviously worked for a very wise doctor!  I have now read many stories where people have got into a lot of trouble by being putting on subs unnecessarily and it turned their lives into hell.  

I am biding my time with completing research/empirical evidence (sounds like I'm back at uni!) until I approach my old key worker and existing inexperienced outreach worker/prescribing nurse as they really are in denial about the negative side of subs!  

The amino acid protocol assisted me immensely when I 'crashed' on the subs.  It helped with the depression and has helped with mild WD symptoms.  So very good all round.  However, I had to insist on the reduction, and at that time had gathered in certain vitamins, minerals etc. prior to reading about the a.a.p. so I got myself prepared for reducing from the amount they were more than happy for me to stay on (3.6mg) because of breakthrough pain.  It was the wrong advice!  The whole point of subs is it is a pure antagonist, you cannot abuse it, once you are stable, which happens very quickly, then reduce and do not stop.  The longer you are on it, the worse it will be.  

Don't feel angry all the time!  But there is a lot in the past - and when you have been in a big opiate fog for 8 years, one thing subs do is bring excessive clarity into your head so your get a rush of everything all at once.  And you have to deal with it.  During the 'honeymoon period' - all peace and love, and acceptance.  Then the opposite.  You have to get through the range of emotions.  It is not an aggressive anger - it is anger at myself for wasting years to have been so weak to have let the pain and some very bad stuff get so much on top off me - I stopped coping completely.  When I was young and arrogant (the arrogance of youth!) I fought it all like a tiger although I hurt like hell about what had happened.  The latter has not gone away.  Then you get a little worn out by it all.  And I did.  And I accept that.  

Thank you very much for your great advice, as ever!  You're fab!

- Fee x
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Hey Mak!
I'm so thrilled for you!  A big congratulations to you and your new family.  Wow I bet you are delighted that your little one has had no WD's.  That is the greatest news!
Is she sleeping well at night?  Hope your C-section area is healing well - that sounded like a bit of a 'mare!  Friends said it was really difficult to breastfeed after a C-section - sore because of the position!  
So, now you are a 'mummy' and in a new club so to speak.  
Wishing you lots of luck and future happiness which I know you will have.  Your little girl is with you now.
All blessings to your family
- Fee x
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Hi Eveleivibe
You can't abuse subs with taking codeine - they are a pure antagonist - so don't worry about that.  My addiction was up to 40 x 30mg dihydrocodeine per day after 8 years which are a lot stronger than codeine, as you prob know.
At first, you pick up subs from the pharmacy each day, then after a few urine samples to show that you are not taking anything else, such as valium, for example, you pick up your prescription three times per week.
At first, you will have to take your sub at the pharmacy, but very quickly you will take them home with you to take.  I hope you have a local pharmacy you have a good relationship with, or choose one that has a 'private room' you can go into.  Mine is great as I have known them for many years as I have so many diff meds for other things and they are family run,
Take the advice of the specialist doctor you will see at your drugs centre with your key worker.  Discuss whether subs are better for you or meth.  However, if you feel that you have the potential to use codeine (is that your DOC (drug of choice)?) on top of the meth, then do not choose meth.  Reduce off the sub as soon as poss. - slowly, gradually.
It is not a fairytale, although you will feel great and normal and first and you will not want your DOC.  Hopefully for you, it will be fine all the way through as it is for some.  Do NOT be afraid by any of this.  You have made your decision to stop and you are doing it.  It sounds like you have the support your family, and that is great!  
I found that interests I had lost for years came back even.  Go do it and good luck!
- Fee  
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Oh yeah i am thrilled she disnt have to go through any wds! And iam healing well, and i couldnt ask for a better baby! She is so content and the sweetest thing! She sleeps very good! She only wakes up 2 times during the night and the only time she cries is if shes hungry or has gas, i mean she is just perfect!  And she has been smiling since we left the hospital! She smiles all the time, it just melts my heart! Thank you again for all the support! :)  <3
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Hi there!  Sounds like you have a good plan in place.  

A few things I wanted to address, just for clarification purposes...Sub is actually not a full agonist, it is a partial agonist opiate.  That's the main reason people are mostly unable to get high on other opiates while on sub, it has to deal with the way sub fills the opiate receptors.  When a person has been stabilized on sub, their receptors would be filled to a high precentage, up to about 95%, which basically doesn't leave room for anything else.  When a person tries to take another opiate while on sub, they won't feel the high from that med because there isn't enough room left for that opiate to hit the receptors in the same way it would to cause a high (without the sub).  That's actually the way sub blocks other opiates.  many people thinks it's the opiate blocker nalaxone, but that only has a very small effect on the blocking of other meds.  It acts more as a psychological deterrant more than anything.

Also, unfortunately, sub absoutely can be abused, people do it all of the time.  Not with the same level of frequency as full agonist opiates are abused, but it does happen.  

I would never recommend methadone as a way to detox off codeine.  I think even Suboxone most of the time would not be the most optimal choice to recovery from codeine addiction, but that's an indivdual decision everyone has to make for themselves.  If a person is looking into any replacment med treatment (sub/meth) as just a way to get around w/ds...then it's the wrong decision.  There IS no way to completely avoid w/ds (as you know).  Whether it's w/d'ing off the initial DOC, or the Sub, it's something the addict has to face at some point.  It's extremely rare for someone to experience no w/ds.  

Also, there is a common misperception that the longer someone in on subs, the longer and tougher their w/d will be.  That's typically not true, once the body has adjusted to the subs, w/d will be inevitable in some respect.  Psychologically it can be harder if a person was on subs for many years, but the physical w/d part shouldn't be extended, not by any significant amount of time.  The reason there are so many horror storues coming off subs is because a lot of times, the taper process is not done correctly.  It's taken too fast, with little to no stabilization period, and people try to jump off from too a high a dose at the end.  Many people think it's reasonable to jump off from say 2mg of sub.  SOUNDS like a low dose, but in the world of sub, it isn't that low.  The doc I worked with recommended that patients taper down to at LEAST 0.5mg/day before making that final jump.  Those people did better, although even at that low dose, most of them still had to contend with some level of w/ds.

One of the biggest benefits of sub therapy is to allow a chronic relapser to get some "clean time" under their belt, alowing them to be fully functional while working their recovery, while building their self esteem.  That of course is the most important part...working on education onseself on what brought them to addiction, what their triggers are, what will place them at risk for relapse, and how to handle it if they recognize that they are in early stages of relapse.  Without the aftercare factor, they are no better off then when they started.

Glad to hear that you're educating yourself, that is so important.  Just be cautious, as there is a lot of bad info out there about subs.  A LOT of misinformation.....some of that comes from the very clinicians who are managing sub programs.  

Good luck...keep on trucking!  :0)  We'll be here, cheering you on!
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Hi nursegirl

I was very interested (again!) in your detailed and helpful information - thank you!

Subs took away all of my desire to take my opiate DOC but then I was 100% ready to stop!  I had hit rock bottom.  So yes, psychologically that had a great deal to do with it naturally and I would not have dared to try.  Also, I had tried to taper etc. etc. been forced to do CT and was absolutely terrified of the WDs (with an spinal cord injury (equina cauda syndrome with some damage to lower legs and feet, but ambulant, you can imagine certain things that were from pleasant too!)

Totally agree you do not take subs just to stop WDs!  You take them to stop your habit and stop full stop!  You have made a very important point there.

Personally, I chose to only drop 0.4mg this past 7 days when I got to the 2mg mark, to stabilize as the WDs, albeit moderate had started occurring 2 weeks ago. In a couple of days, another 0.2mg drop and so on.  My 'outreach worker' advised 0.4mg every 2 weeks but i have beat the target of 1.6mg in 4 weeks and made a 2mg reduction.  When setting the 'target', which I don't think she thought I could do(!) as we do not have a rapport, at no time did I receive advice on preparing for the reduction which I think is all important i.e. the vits, minerals, and amino acid protocol, which I found on here.  That helped enormously to send WDs from moderate to min. and got rid of the awful depression.  

I DO believe in the 'honeymoon period' followed by severe depression with subs for a significant number of people, purely down to the lack of information they are given about possible side effects.  I have heard it from too many people now (on anor Forum too).  It is not something my worker recognises and only the good medics and nurses such as yourself are fully educated about the power of this drug and the correct way to reduce etc.  Some individuals are more vulnerable e.g. those prone to depression/have long history of addiction with a lot of baggage from the past.  Subs give such a clarity of thought, and when someone has been in a long, long opiate haze, blocking stuff off it suddenly hits you all at once after the 'honeymoon period' is over.  And you can crash badly.    

Exercise all you can! (I can't run but I walk as far as I can and I built up my back muscles and forced myself mind over matter, pain be damned as far as I could from the beg. 6 months ago.  My dog helped!) and drink at least 1L of water on top of other drinks like fruit drinks, tea.  I love proper ground coffee but coffee dihydrates so people need to be aware of that even though it is still a liquid!  .

And I cannot stress enough about being prepared with the right vits, minerals, looking at the amino acid protocol on here.  L-Tyrosine has been wonderful!  Will move on to 5HTP in the future too.  

It is a gradual and slow process if you are aiming for success.  I think if someone feels so darn awful, they can possibly relapse back to their DOC - and I know of this happening to some because they mentally and physically just cannot take it.  

I wish you were attached to the clinic I went to!  Your knowledge is invaluable and you are not only of great help to me - but to other people to reading this thread.

All the very best to you No. 1 nursegirl!

- Fee x

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It seems like you are equipped with a lot of the knowledge you need to succeed. You have the right attitude as well. Now, you are tapering and trying to make plans to deal with the pain that remains. I don't understand how the doc thinks that a smaller dose of sub, the patch, is going to work better. If you weren't an opiate addict, I think it would work fine, I just don't see the logic in tapering down to 20mcgs and staying there. I just want you to consider rebound pain. The pain that is caused by a reduction or termination of opiate use. I usually suggest getting back to a base YOU, before going to the next treatment. My pain is far less, without opiates, even when I was on them. I think it has to do with being more aware of my body and when it's time to rest. I also feel the tension building and go to the chiro or do the stretches and exercises that help. Sometimes I need an OTC med, but rarely. Dealing with pain in clarity is much easier. I've had back pain since I was 11, so I've tried lots of things. I've yet to meet a person who says, "I found the perfect med and have had no pain for many years."  Anyway, something to think about. If nothing else, the bupe will work better, after getting all the opiates out of your system. Oh yeah, all the nutrients, made a huge difference for me, in symptoms and healing. You're doing great.
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Do you now what Weaver, it's a coincidence that you have addressed this issue - as I have been thinking along these lines too!  My pain has markedly DECREASED since I overdid and was laid up a couple of weeks ago, yet carried on reducing.  
After seeing my outreach worker today, it seems switching to bu trans patches from subs is 'complicated' and have to see a specialist drugs doc again to make the switch.  That's in anor 3 weeks.  
Meanwhile, i will just carry on reducing the subs.  In a couple of days it will be 1.4mg.  Steady as she goes.  I DO want to be opiate free and look at the pain picture again.  My whole outlook on natural therapy, steady exercise, limiting life (okay a pain in the arse but nothing I can do about) is better than being filled up with chemicals 24/7.  And, mind over matter - that all powerful tool that can be utilised to certain degrees, but can be used.  
Thank you for making me think.  It helps everyone gain valuable insight too, and think of things that seem 'impossible'!
All the best
- Fee
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Avatar_f_tn
Very useful info thanks for sharing x
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Avatar_f_tn
Hi Weaver and Nursegirl

Amazing switch around with my useless 'outreach worker' yesterday.  Saw her for the first time in 4 weeks.  She was actually respectful and showed genuine interest!  Had emailed her a few days before our app. about the reduction I had chosen to do at a faster pace, and more importantly the natural remedies I had put in place to prepare myself, and the research I had carried out prior to the reduction.  Also said I had found invaluable support online and I mean you guys in particular.  Thank you!  

I left feeling good for a chance instead 'what was the point of that!'  Got an appointment with the head honcho at the clinic for the switch to bu trans from sub as apparently it is complicated.  However, as Weaver was saying, and I had just started thinking about ..... pain is under control and I do NOT want any bupe in my body.  So I am going to carry on reducing.  

I will try my hardest to get off these subs and not have any bu trans.  I want to wait for the spinal unit referral - maybe there will be a blockage that can be done rather than chemicals be in my brain 24/7 that I don't want.  All the severe and chronic depression didn't start until chemicals started being fed into me and then I started feeding them myself!  So ... makes sense to avoid them if at all possible.  Limit life physically ok, accept.  Feel good mentally?  That is fantastic!  You can do so much with that!  

To go through a difficult time for a relatively short period of time is comparatively nothing to 8 years of wastage.  As the old sea saying goes, and when I used to sail: Steady as she goes.

Thank you both again.  You are inspirational and have helped me so, so much.  Fee x

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Avatar_m_tn
That's a great idea. If you need medication after detox, then you'll know if it works. I bet you will not need any meds., which stop working anyway. Hang around and take your time. Again, slow and steady wins the race. We will be here through the whole process. Are there any other resources, counseling, 12 step meetings, church, or anything in your area to build a support team? I found getting involved with other people around me, before I got off subs, very helpful. I go to AA mostly, and group counseling, but it really made a difference in those final steps of detox. Most like to detox first, though I couldn't wait. I needed a plan and accountability from the start. You have the right attitude and your knowledge is growing. You realize how short of a part of life this is. You have made a decision, now how can we help you to follow through, like I know you will?  
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Avatar_f_tn
Great - thank you Weaver.  There is NA which I was told I could go to even at early stage of being on subs. although 'some' people may think it a bit strange me attending when I was not 'clean'.  
This I know I need in the near future.  Have a tricky time coming up with mother having a knee op in 5 days which will mean daily attendance for 2 weeks (and the world revolves around her like it's a triple bi pass op! Plus it will all be a bit exhausting as well as bang in the middle of my son's important exams.  After that is over I will go to my first meeting.  
Should be down to 1.2mg at least then yee ha!
What does feel wonderful is that I am in control now through listening to my own body, research, and not being willing to be told what I should put into my body.  Because I know what that can do!
I believe it will be good to meet new friends at NA too, as I cut myself off from people when I was a full on addict - shame, disinterest, in my own little world and knowing that others would not understand or would be appalled.  
Also have to keep in mind that dangerous trigger point time when son goes to college in 2..25 yrs. and mother's Alzheimer's will really be showing its face.  So I will need to be out there in the world with a proper social life and support and 100% strong in every sense
Never thought I would be one of those people needing support.  It was always me supporting other people.  How things change!
'Plan and accountability' were key words that you used, and I feel that NA would be of great assistance towards the end of the detox.
As ever, wise words Weaver.  Rock on! x
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Avatar_m_tn
Just checking in. How are you today? Don't worry about taking subs and going to meetings. The only requirement for NA membership is the DESIRE to stop using. It's in the book. You can listen at first. You'll find those who will support you. You have a lot coming up, if you feel you need it, then go. I had to take time off in the acute detox, but my new friends offered to bring a vomit bucket, if I wanted to go. Anyway, you will find what works for you, I'm certain of it. Keep on keepin on and don't forget to Rock On!!!
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Avatar_f_tn
Ok Weaver, I will go after the mother crisis is over and dealt with - or this one at least!  And keep on reducing slowly.  
Have just learned two things of great interest - there are opiate receptors in your stomach -  described it almost like a second brain for excessive opioid users.  Second, opioid induced hyper-algesia which would explain why the pain reduces as the detoxing takes place!  Downloaded some papers but only managed to get through a couple as am so busy at the moment but it made things even more clear for me.  So glad you kicked me off on this subject.  I may have started thinking about it but you clarified I wasn't just perhaps being wishful in my thinking!  
Weaver - will be no doubt be crying to you as the reduction gets way down low as it's gotta come, but look forward to being free.  But whatever, rock on for sure!  
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Avatar_f_tn
Hi Weaver, Just checking in.
Hope all is good with you.
Things were indeed really tough with dealing with my mother and when she came out of hospital.  I was totally exhausted!  Not sleeping through sheer stress and over-tiredness.  Of course she cannot quite get her head round what it is I a doing and how important my 'routine' is and how extra stress can have adverse effect shall we say but I have been doing my duty and looking after her but it has been hard work.  I had the day off yesterday as I was falling down.  I kept on 1.4mg for 10days.  Didn't want to push it and am now on 4th day of 1.2mg.  Have appointments for mother and myself coming up this week and still need to be with her every other day, so will keep it at 10 days unless I feel I am strong enough to reduce again.
It has not just been the physical looking after, but her Alzheimer's leapt up due to the fact that SHE was in a stressful situation i.e. going in hospital and  it reacts like that.
Have had added stresses on the my own home front too so the last 14 days - no thank you to a repeat of them!
Still, today the sun is out.  I actually managed to get 12 hours lying down and slept well.
So ...... rock on!
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