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Day 2 without Hydro
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Day 2 without Hydro

Had surgery 5 weeks ago and been on hydro. approx 14 5-500 mg. per day. I stepped down the last ten days to 2-4 5-500 mg. per day. I was irritated yesterday and had definite withdrawal symptoms. The problem is I know I can get more and don't want to do so because I have to get off them sometime, right. I am recovering from ovarian cancer and still have pain. I can't discern if it warrants meds or is withdrawal.  How much worse can I expect the symptoms this next 24hrs. is the worst behind me? and I stepped myself down after reading this site. My doc. did not discuss this process and I wish he had. I was not able to go as slowly as has been recommended here. If anyone would like to share you can email me at ***@****. thanks.
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the worst is unfortunately in front of you, the next 48-72 hrs are going to be the worst...... if you have any questions feel free to ask.
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Hello Everyone,

I have been on Vicoprofen (on and off) for the past 6 months...taking about 2-3 a day.  These are for my upper and lower back pain. My back pain is getting a lot better.  Sometimes its even non-existant.  But why do I keep telling my doctor that I still have the pain?  I shouldn't really be on these pills.  I think I am taking them now just for the "effect"

I don't want to be a junkie...please help

What are the withdrawls?  How do I stop the craving ????
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Hello everyone. I have been reading this forum the last few days. I found it by doing a search for hydrocodone. I have been clean for a little over 4 years..till last week. Hydrocodone was and apparently still is my drug of choice. I have been an addict since 1989. The last 4 years I have been drug and alcohol free and life has been wonderful. During a routine visit to my internist last week my ears heard my mouth say.."I'd like you to prescribe me an analgesic for these headaches I've been having". Within an hour of leaving his office I was loaded on a couple of Lortabs.
This is my third vist to this Dr. and unlike my previous one who moved from the state last fall he does not know of my history with drug addiction. In less than a week the 30 pills are gone and I'm yawning with a runny nose. What a *****. Anyway, I know what to do..I've been here many times. Just needed a place to purge my thoughts. Would be willing to share my story with anyone who is interested. Thanks
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I, too, was clean for three years and then all it took was one little pill to get me back to where I started from.  I never thought this would happen, because I was so happy being off of vicodin and especially the burden of counting pills, figuring out how much I had before I ran out, where I was going to get it next...you know the drill.

I had put all that behind me, and then I blew it, thinking I could take just one to get through a rough patch.  I was an idiot, and my brain was screaming "Don't do it!"

Regarding the question of withdrawal that was posted here, you can find plenty of descriptions of it on this forum and elswhere on the web.  Check out the "Hydrocodone Withdrawal" thread on this forum as well as other similar threads.  Use a search engine and check out "vicodin withdrawal" "Hydrocodone withdrawal," etc. Also check out the archives on this site and do a search.

Ah, withdrawal....You can expect the runs, total lack of energy, extreme body aches and pains, flu-like symptoms, and depression, among other delightful things like vomiting, the sweats, and spastic convulsions.  If you have a heavy habit like I did three years ago and quit cold turkey, you run the risk of having a seizure.  I had two gran mal seizures in one night, less than two days after quitting cold turkey, and they almost killed me.  This is why I would suggest tapering down, though it's a ***** and takes will power, because it will make your withdrawal less drastic, although you can count on it being unpleasant no matter what.  It's the price you pay for all the artificial joy those little pills have given you, and you can expect the worst of it to last from two to three days, with at least a week or two of feeling generally rotten after that.  The trick is to stay off once you go through the detox.  I have checked out "The Rcipe" for detox and there are those who say it works, so it may be worth looking into.  Unfortunately, I cannot access the forum on which it is posted, but I'm sure there are those who post here who know about it and can either point you to another place where it is posted or give you the ingredients.  It is discussed in some of the other threads on this forum.  

Good luck to all of you and thanks for sharing.  Sorry to hear you wound up in the same boat as I did, Captain, but hopefully we will be able to use our prior knowledge to steer ourselves out of these troubled waters again...and once and for all.

Peace.
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Has anyone ever been "busted" by the doc.? I was after seeing many to get stuff and one pulled up a history sheet from the ins. co.! A year later I got the cancer diagnosis and am fighting calling in a request for refill. I really like my oncologist and don't want to sour what will likely be a long relationship (well, if he's any good:)  Like it says, I've got almost 2 whole days done without anything and am fighting the mental gremlins.
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I too am going thru the same hydrocodone ****. Vicodin was my drug of choice. I started again a few times last year by going to speacialists under my plan who knew nothing of my history. In September I started a job working in an old friends home daycare and found out that she was a bigtime percocet user. Now sad to say that most weeks I get paid in pills instead of money. Last fri I went to see my orthopaedic surgeon fora legitamate problem and ended up getting 100 5mg vics Today after selling her 25 and the pharmacy even shorted me ten JUst my luck!! lol try proving THAT! I am all out and am just starting to feel like hell, A feeling I know all to well, and to top it all off she has none except what she needs to keep from being sick soooooo...  there you have it. I so want to go into an outpatient detox but since having done so many times before I feel like it will be my punishment to go thru it. Baddgirl
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Bgirl..or anyone, if you would like to chat online email me at ***@**** and I will give you my icq# or AOL IM nick. Just reading these responses helps me quite a bit.
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Ooooooh, I know the feeling, girl.  I've thought of checking into detox myself, only to remember that it never worked the first time around and I was using again within two weeks of getting out.  It certainly made coming off this **** much easier, but as you imply, almost too easy.  As in Skinnerian conditioning, the body responds to stimuli, and the stimuli of the extreme pain and suffering of withdrawal will stay with you and might just frighten you enough to make you not get back on the junk.  Just the thought of that misrable hospital gives me the shivers--a low point in my life, missing my daughter's first birthday because I was in a mental ward.  And having her visit me with her mother in that cold, spartan cell of a room...with no idea as to why daddy was such a mess and had to live in this horrible place.  Good god.  

As I wrote before, the only thing that finally made me stop were cold-turkey seizures that came this close to killing me.  After that, it was like someone had waved a magic wand and I simply didn't need anymore.  Same thing with smoking (a hangover from hell did the trick), cocaine (severe hallucinations and ideations of suicide scared me straight), and with pot, well, I just woke up one mornng and was bored of it.  So we all solve these things differently.  Personally, I feel one can only truly quit from a having a sincere desire within one's self to do so, coupled with a traumatic "rock bottom" ordeal."  The AA/group thing, for me, only prolongs the inevitable by reinforcing the belief that we are helpless, which I feel that we are most definitely not.  I know AA/NA works for some, and my hat's off to them, but it doesn't help me at all.  Quitting is ultimately a very personal, lonely, and spiritual journey in the sense that you must face the worst part of yourself and reconcile it with the good part.  Having a forum like this is a godsend, because there are no 12-steps, no rules, no one twisting your arm to admit that you're a helplessness sack of **** and only God can sace you, or pointing their fingers and shouting "denial."  (Though you do have the occasional Jesus Freak who writes in all caps and promises eternal damnation if you don't take the highway to heaven).  To hell with all that. Sorry to offend any true believers, it's just my two cents, and like I said, if 12 stepping works for you then keep marching.  For the rest of us who are strong enough to know that there really is more than just one way out of the darkness, do what works for you.  Everyone here has been honest enough to sit down and write down their miserable little problems and ask for some help or at least a sympathetic ear.  That is the human spirit in action, and I for one believe that it is more powerful than the little pill in the bottle that is singing my favorite song.  They irony of your name, Baddgirl, does not escape me, for you are good enough to come here and tell your tale in hopes of somehow finding the strength and the insight to get out of your mess.  In that way you are like all of us.  I have no idea who all of you are, but I consider you all to be fine human beings and my friends.   Perhaps a live group chat would be in order sometime.  Maybe that's somethng we can work towards.  In the meantime, anyone can write me at ***@**** if they want to talk one-on-one.  I'll have to dust off the icq or IM if anyone wants to chat, but I would be up for that, too if it would help you--and if I can find the time.  

Bottom line: I managed to be happily sober for three years without group meetings, shrinks, or medication.  If I can do it, anyone can.

Whatever path you choose, I wish all of you, as always, the best of luck.  There is hope...and you are not alone.

Peace.
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Is ther a diffence in the 2?  Opiod and Opiate?  And the 2nd question is do they appear differently in a drug test?
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Yes, there is a difference.  According to Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary, an opiate is any drug containing or derived from opium.  An opioid is non-opium derived synthetic narcotics.

By definition, both appear to be narcotics, just with different origins.

Hope this helps.
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Well, I was clean 18 years until a series of 5 root cnals in one year led me to reacquire my "taste" for opiates.

I'm going to quit this weekend with the aid of Buprenex, a "partial" opiate that will relieve many of the withdrawal symptoms of early detox.

But the I'll have to face what every recovering addict faces: after the phsyica;l withdrawal symptoms subside (3-5 days), I'll still face days if not even a few weeks or more of debilitating lethargy and depression. That'll be a tough mountain to climb perhaps, but when I'm past it I will have regained my life and my freedom.

Definitely worth it, I'd say.

I also wanted to speak to some of your questions about withdrawal. Seizures are almost unheard of in opiate withdrawal (and I'm not talking about those convulsive leg-kicking tremors, but real seizures). Opiate withdrawal may make you feel like you're dying, but I'm not sure if there are any recorded cases of death from opiate withdrawal in and of itself.

So don't worry about dying from it. Especially those of you with habits of les than 6-9 months in duration, the withdrawal symptoms may be less serious than you imagine.

Valium will help. Clonidine. And of course Buprenex if you can get it. But bottom line, it's bad but not nearly as bad as the "panic of withdrawal" makes us think it is.

So stay with it. Get clean. Get your life back. And yes, it'll be a struggle, but not as big a struggle (physically, at least)as you might think. If it wasn't for the "withdrawal panic," you might just think you had a really bad flu for a few days.

Whatever. One thing is without doubt: the struggle is worth it!

No more lying and hiding and shame and self-loathing and wishing we were normal and wishoing we could turn back the clock and never have taken the first fix or pill. No more of that.

Just freedom again. Pride. Health and energy. And the knowledge that we have gotten our lives back at last.
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The former poster made the mistake that so many people unfamiliar with 12 step programs make and that is eqauting powerlessness with helplessness or weakness which is not the case at all.  I submit my "strenght" is greater than his/hers because mine comes from my Higher Power whom I choose to call God. I urge all of you recovering to attend a 12 step meeting and decide for yourself. It does not require a belief in God as has also mistakenly been posted here.

It is possible to stay clean through sheer willpower fighting cravings and longing for that really great high.  And then there's sobriety that has quality of life and true recovery.  And for the great majority of addicts, that comes through working the 12 steps.  It's a fact.

And I'm not offended.  Most addicts have great difficulty with the concept of powerlessness.  The interesting thing is when you tell a person who is not an addict they usually understand it right away. It's only we addicts who fight it.
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It is true that opiate withdraw rarely includes seizing, UNLESS, you already have a low seizure threshhold.  So, if you have a seizure disorder and you are detoxing at home from opiates it is a good idea to have some anti seizure medication around.  Take it as soon as you start to feel 'strange'.
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As a recovering addict with former dependance on valium I feel compelled to write about the the various strategies and recipes I have read from the archives over the last few days. The main reason I was able to get clean for a few years the last time was because my hydrocodone addiction had been augmented with an addiction to valium. The hell that I went through getting off valium made opiod detox seem like a walk in the park.
This horrible experience enlightened me. I became aware for the first time how fragile the mind is. And how easy it is to cross over from normal thought to irrational or even psychotic thinking.
Years of 12 step indoctrination never produced the behavioral modifications that were necessary for me to break free of my addictive lifestyle. But episodic, transitory, insanity from benzodiazepin  withdrawal did! This relapse of mine the past week with hydrocodone has reminded me just how much I love the warm and fuzzy feeling that it produces in me. But it also reminded me of the past hell that I always paid for achieving it. Maybe this week was my "Higher Power" sending me to continuing education class.
There is a book by Barbara Gordon called 'I'm Dancing as Fast as I can' that I would recommend to anyone who is contemplating either self administration of detox involving benzodiazepins or to anyone currently addicted to valium, ativan, xanax..etc.
Love and Mercy
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Since I was on Vicoprofen (7.5/200) off and on...for only 6 months taking at most 4 or 5 pills in one day...and that too ONLY 3 or 4 times in those 6 months that I took 4 to 5 pills a day

Does this mean that I am NOT an addict ???

Does this also mean that I am NOT going to get withdrawls as severe as UNWISE or BADGIRL ???

I have 3 pills left and will buy L-Tyrosine today.  I am cutting those Vicoprofens in half and slowly tapering down....

SO am I out of the woods ????

UNWISE, Badgirl...please reply

Thanks
Feels like a family in here...
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If you keep going at the rate that you are going, you should be alright.  A couple of days of wd symptoms and lethargy followed by just lethargy afterwards.  The cravings are the part that is hard to predict.  If you are really taking the meds at the rate that you say, then you did yourself a big favor by not over doing it.  Your wd's will be a lot less than someone who has been glomming down the pills.
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At 6 months, you will feel withdrawal.  It is hard to predict how much, though.  If you have withdrawal, that doesn't mean that you are an addict.  It means that you have developed a physical dependence on the meds.
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Thank you very much

I feel good that my withdrawls won't be bad
Is the L-Tyrosine will be help the withdrawls ?
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Getting off benzodiazapines much more difficult than opiates.  This forum consists of mostly opiate addicts.  There is a benzo board you might want to check out that provides support for benzo w/d.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/benzo/messages

It addresses the special problems that benzo addicts deal with like protracted withdrawl (withdrawal) symptoms. You are required to join to view it or post.

I love it when people use words like "indoctrination" and "cult" to describe AA/NA. Makes me think of basic training in the Army. Get sober or do 50 push ups. LOL.

Those who attend 12 step meetings can tell you there isn't a more supportive place for addicts in this world. Where else do you find "principles before personalites," and a spirtuality that endures the test of time. I walked in broken and was surrounded by unconditional love and gradually with the fellowship of the program and the 12 steps, I put the pieces back together. It has taken my cravings away, made me a more honest person and lifted a weight that I hadn't even know I was carrying for years. I am free at last. Must've been all the push ups :)

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What seamstress says about "powerlessness" and 12 step programs and the nature of true sobriety is worth listening to.

Of course, there is no objective evidence that more people are clean and sober in AA'NA as opposed to not being in AA/NA. 12 step programs work for many many people; many other people are successful using other approaches.

But the point is not whether AA is good (it is) or even necessary (for many it is, but not for all). The point is that if we want to stay clean and have any kind of life that's worth living, we need to do something more than simply NOT US E. Sobriety is not about white-knuckling and resisting cravings day after day. It's about achieving some sort of spiritual or emoptional rebirth that makes living without drugs actually feel better and more vibrant than living with drugs. It's not about "resisting urges," it's about gaining power through reclaiming our lives from the demon of addiction.

Many find that spiritual rebirth in AA -- there certainly is something magical and wonderful about sitting in a meeting and looking at the faces of all these people who should be dead from their addictions but are not. They're alive -- and more alive than ever before because of their feeling of emotional opr spiritual rebirth.

But many people also find their rebirth through friends, through fporums like these, through medittion, through their church, or simply by themselves. Many feel so much gratitude at having their lives restored, at not having to lie and hide and feel such shame and self-loathing anymore, that they're reborn.

Anyway, DMR -- you should not feel too bad withdrawal symtpoms. Maybe 1-2 nights that keep you up, some leg-kicking and tremors, maybe loose bowels, and of course the "panic of withdrawal." That's the worst and most dangerous part, and you will feel some of it. But resist ther panic -- it's only a mental state that is trying to drive you back to drugs. Just tell yourself you'll feel better in the morning, and almost certainly you will.

Good luck.
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Na and AA a cult?  LOL  I agree with you,  when you walk into the rooms of AA or NA you get people from all walks of life,,some giving good advice, some not so good advice and some give no advice at all   they are just there to listen.  What one person decides to do with what he is given when he wals into the rooms is entirely up to him  Obviously these people that have been clean and sober for a number of years have been free for a reason..everyone needs someone, we can't do this all alone and studies have shown over the past several years that the 12 steps do work.  AA AND NA are support systems, obviously support systems work,  If the programs are a cult then how exactly would we describe these forums?  a cult as well?  people come here for support, advice etc.  the same reason they attend NA and AA.  to find something they need  we basically get the same thing.  Only difference is the fact that we don't work the 12 steps..we discuss things,  how to get clean, how to stay clean and we even come to the boards with our own stories,our own problems,  looking for advice, crying, laughing and everything else they do at discussion meeting,,,most of us have a higher power,  some of us pray, some of us don't and it has even been said that alot of people that come to these forum do so because the computer is more convenient than taking   a shower, getting dressed and getting in the car.  Yet we would travel 300 miles if it meant getting drugs,   I apologize for getting in a soap box but when someone starts bashing AA or NA I have to step in and voice my opinion as we are all permitted to do on these boards,  I have never heard of a cult that has done any good for any cause where as NA and AA have done alot of good for millions of people  can't say that about cults     E.
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No sense getting all tied up in knots debating words like "cult."

Anyone with eyes to see ought to be able to see that AA and NA have helped millions of people recover their lives from the horrors (and I mean *horrors*) of addiction.

Not a whole lot of organizations can credibly claim to have helped save millions of people.

Now, this doesn't mean that AA and NA are for everyone, of course. Personally, I go to some meetings and get alot out of them at times, but I'm just not the sort of person (at least right now) who "works the steps" or quotes from "the big book."

But my God, how can there be any doubt that 12-step programs have done a lot of good in this sad world we live in? It shouldn't even be a debate.
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I took my last hydro's this morning....and I'm scared.  I wanted to taper off but can't get my hands on anymore.  I had a surgery to break my leg and re-align my knee joint on 07Jan02.  And I've been on pain meds ever since.  I've read the recipe...is that the best plan at this point?  I so badly wish I would have the opportunity to taper off after reading you stories.  I've been taking around 8-10 5 mg. Vicodins a day....and I'm very scared about withdrawal.  I quit one other time and had terrible withdrawal symptoms.  Any advice?

Thank you everyone for your time!!!!
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Hello everyone. As far as the serverity of withdrawl (withdrawal) it does depend on how many you are taking and how long you have been taking them. I have only been doing them for about 6 months and on some days I have only a theraputic dose and other days I have 12. But I also take other things like oxycontin wich are very bad and percocet in my opinion are not as bad as vics. I have been thru them all as well as experiancing with heroin(snorting only) for 6 months,I will tell you that coming off vicodin was way worse than detoxing from heroin, which tells you that the **** on the DC streets in so cut, Anyway I feel for anyone who is going thru withdrawls now. I unfortunatly got some vics from my employer cause she knows I cannot function if I am sick. I know this sounds self serving but I am not ready to quit yet I know there will come a time probably after my liver is on its last legs, As far as the question of wether or not you are an addict. You are an addict if you wake up thinking about the drug if it consumes your daily life. If you are having problems in your life due to your usage,Everynight I have the same dream, I am shopping in someones medicine cabinet looking for drugs. Baddgirl
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also getting off benzo's is life threatening and opiates are not, you can also go into seizues with barbitrates like fioricet. I am an old pillhead from way back. My first pill was Quaalude, then seconals (reds) followed also placidyl I am in no way proud but do know It will follow my through my life. At one time or another I have been addicted to just about every kind of pill from valium to ritalin, my pills of choice are either not made anymore(quaalude) or prescribed anymore(seconal& placcidyl) thanks to Elvis. lol Badd
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Well, it's day 3+ now without and I'm okay. I was wondering- cause I gotta know... do those online pharmacies that say they sell hydro, etc. really do so? and wouldn't they bust ya'? I would not do such, but I've REALLY thought about these last 72 hours. anyone?
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The only difference between oxycontin and percocet is the duration of action.  Everything else is the same.  The withdrawals are the same.  They both have oxycodone in them, which I am sure you are well aware of.  If, for example, you take percocet at 8 o'clock.  You will go into withdrawal sooner than if it were oxycontin that you took.  That is the only difference.
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Hey there. Actually, they pulled out my history as well and told me to find another doctor. I went from 10 /  12 pills / day with Soma to NOTHING! Very tough. That was on Feb 8th. We are March 1st. I am still having some wd, mostly mental and cant seem to focus on my day to day activity. All I do is thinking about those damn pills. I know that I am probably better and people around me keep telling me the I "look" better. Sounds funny to me since I really dont feel all that good! Anyway, I am taking it one day at a time and hopefully, these mental craving will eventually go away. What did you do?
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frenchee, same boat- let's chat in email. ***@****. I could use the support. I 'bout DIED when my doc. called me on it. I was so embarrased. I quit cold turkey for 9mon. and then this surgery. we seem to be on the same wavelength. thanks, ketta
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Sorry to have stirred the pot about AA/NA.  I never called it a "cult," never meant to "bash" it, and certainly tipped my hat to those who have made it work for them.  If I had not attended meetings and tried to make it work, then my conclusion that it was not for me would be a different story.  But I did try.  And to imply that I simply didn't get it, well, that's the kind of thinking that I was speaking of before, and that I tend to resent.  AA followers tend to be rather strident in defense of their group.  That is just as much their right as it is mine to say it doesn't work for me.  Anyone who cares to doubt that is doing so without knowing me as a person, and working within a tautology that implies there is something wrong with the person and never with the program. That's one of the facets of religion, like it or not.  God is never wrong. I know some AA members who are extremely cool and go about their business and lives without preaching the gospel.  And there are those who bristle at the slightest mention of an alternative, or that it may not work for everyone.  I appreciate the other posts here that have laid it out straight:  AA works for millions, but its efficacy in the long term has never been proven with hard numbers.  There are other ways out of the darkness, and to take an alternate route is not a snub to 12-steppers.  I am not knocking AA or the people whom it has helped; please don't knock me for having made my own decisions based on my personal experiences with AA and who I am as a person.  This forum is a wonderful place for all kinds of voices and beliefs.  I apologize if my words were misconstrued, for I never called AA a cult, not would I ever minimize the impact it has had on so many, nor denigrate those who follow the 12-steps.  I wish it had worked for me like it does for some of you.  Instead, I have found my hope and answers elsewhere, and am willing to share my experiences and thoughts with those like me for whom AA did not offer a solution.  It would appreciated if I could do see in an environment that does construe this as knocking AA.  If this were a forum on religion and someone insisted that Christianity was the only way to find God, And those who didn't tow that line were simply blind, stupid, or didn't get it, then that would pretty much close the door on all the buddhists, muslims, agonistics, et all who wish to contribute.  We are all after the same thing, sobriety, and I wholeheartedly agree that it is not defined by white-knuckling every day.  I spent three glorious years not even thinking about drugs or missing drugs and turning them down when they were offered to me.  I had been "spiritually reborn" as another poster put it, in my own personal way that did not involve the 12-steps, and I happened to fall off that wagon just like so many 12-steppers do each and every day.  There is no one right single answer to the question we are all asking.  AA is one the answers and a good one for many--Certainly a good place to start and to at least give a chance.  Just wanted to make that clear, and extend the olive branch to anyone who felt I was implying otherwise.  Hope I haven't sewn the seeds for further rancor in the process.  I wish the best for all of you here, and appreciate each and every word that is written.
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Now, having possibly created fodder for yet further debate, I would like to address the question of withdrawal that was originally the core of this thread.

My seizures resulted from coming off of a number of meds, all of which could (and obviously did) contribute.  It is heartening to read that coming off hydros alone can't do that, though I did read elsewhere that opiate withdrawal could induce seizures in some people.  I'd like to believe it won't, but the suddens jerks that hit my body tend to make me think of a precursor to a full-blown seizure.  Just a little way my body is telling me that something else is to come.  I might be wrong, and I hope I am.

I wonder if you can help me with the benzo issue and what constitutes an amount that would be considered dangerous?  I used to truly abuse them, taking many a day, and quitting cold turkey obviously was a tough road to how.  Now I currently take .75 mg of xanax twice a day for a total of 1.5 mg a day.  The bottle says .5 3 times a day, but I break it up into two dosages.  This truly helps take the edge off, and for some reason (knock on wood) I do not gobble them down or take them for a high.  Once the hydros are out of the picture, which hopefully will be soon, what's the outlook for the benzos if I continue taking them at that rate?  I imagine I may up the intake if the current dose doesn't help with full blow WD, but I also have some clonazepam that I was intending to use for that.  Any comments from those with experience/knowledge in this?  I know this isn't the benzo boeard, but they are an adjunct to the bigger problem of the hydros, which I most definitely abuse.

Also been taking a lot of soma and find it much easier to take less or even none without noticing any WD.  Is this strange?

Currently a week into prozac...hoping it will work with the depression that is already oppressive and only bound to get worse when the hydros run out.  

Thanks in advance to all.  Keep the faith.
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I also take Soma and can quit taking it without any problems except for some tense feelings and lack of sleep.

I take hydros too and really, I wish the Soma helped with Hydro withdrawal, but it does not.  the benzos do a little during "those days" before it appears proper to get another refill.

Benzo withdrawal is very difficult.  I have not seen the benzo message boards, but I can tell you from experience that even a couple of Tranzene 7.5's a day for a few years will make trying to quit very hard.  I went through 3 months of aches-flu-nausea, chills, strange wierd shivers in the middle of the day coming out of nowhere, even 3 months after I cut down to 1 pill every other day.  I take them sporadically now "when needed", as the label says, without a problem.  But I am still taking them.

The hydros are the worst - mentally and physically and I simply do not know how to make myself stop.  Have been taking just 1 or 2 a day.  But for over 5 years.  I'm just tired of it all.. . until the stuff wears off - then I'm not so tired of it after all.

Anyway, be careful with your valium or xanax or whatever you are doing now.

. . . and good luck and God Bless - most of all the God Bless.  It takes a lot of praying for me to get by these days.

A lot.

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No debate.  My "indoctrination" has taught me to ask myself how important is this?  Not very.  And to let it go. I only defended AA because I want Medhelp users to see the program has worked for the majority of recovering addicts. I advise everyone to attend a meeting and judge it for yourself.
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Unwise, I thought your latest post aboput AA and 12 step programs was right on. I think we all agree (how could we not?) that AA has helped save the lives of millions of people.

And if every once in a while, someone gets a little evangelical about AA, well that's not the worst thing in the world, is it? It's actually kind of understandable -- I mean, if it had saved my life and the lives of many people near and dear to me, I'd be raving about it, too, right?

In fact, 20 years ago when I got clean the first time (and stayed clean for 18 years, which isn't too shabby), it really was AA that saved my life. And I never even worked the steps or got a sponsor. I was simply so spiritually moved by all those people in AA reclaiming their lives -- and by te power that people find collectively in AA that they could not find alone by themselves -- that I think it sparked an awakening in me. Being clean no longer was a mattrer of NOT USING for me. It had become this wonderful energizing sense of the power that human beings have to heal each other when they work together. An that's what made "sobriety" a great positive experience for me, and I'm not normally a "touchy-feely" sort of person. I'm just not so dumb that I can't see a good thiung when it's right in front of me.

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we ought to be a little more forgiving of each other and not jump on each other if one of us says the "wrong" thing or puts things in a one-sided way. We're not writing academic treatises here. We're just trying to communicate our hopes and fears through the fog of addiction and trying to help and be helped buy others here.

Soi anyway, I'm glad we seem to be on the same page re: AA and 12-steps. Or at least that we're not going to make an argument about it. We habve much BIGGER problems to worry about, trust me.
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Seamstress, I reread all the posts in this thread in an attempt to see what put a burr under your saddle. The word cult was not used by anyone...you put that word on the table. On your latest post you again put in quotations my choice of the word "indoctrination" so I guess like unwise I want to clarify my position. I use the word "indoctrinate" in its literal context of " to instruct in fundamentals or rudiments; to imbue with a point of view, or principle" Yes, I was indoctrinated in the 12 step program. I was deeply involved in it for many years.At one time I sponsered  2 people. Had I chosen to say that I was "brain washed" then I could understand your defensive posture..although I happen to think in my case that my brain did indeed need a little washing. What I wanted to communicate though is that when I left the program and went my own path..put distance between myself and those in the program whose lives I was constantly exposing myself to..I was able to remain clean for 4 years..without relapse...the longest period of sobriety in my entire adult life and something that was a struggle while actively involved in AA/NA. I dont know why you chose to respond to posts about choosing an alternate path to recovery, by using semantics but what I want to emphasize is that whatever works is a good thing and whether you are a priest, an astronaut, an addict, or a school principal..you must first be "indocrinated" in the teachings and principles of that which you seek to be a part of. Hope this clarifies the intent of my earlier posts.
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Great post. You are much more articulate than I am. Perhaps you do a lot of writing in your work?  And point well taken about more important things to deal with.
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At the risk of sounding like everyone else on this site: HELP!!!
I work in a medical office, and have Vicoprofen handy at all times.  I hear the proper symptoms that the docs respond to, and know exactly what to say to get what I want.  Naturally, I don't want to s*** in my own nest, so I keep my drug needs/wants away from the docs who sign my paycheck.  *sigh*  But I have sure hit up every other doc in town, for symptoms ranging from toe pain to menstrual cramps.  I only want Vicoprofen, and what started as 1-2 nightly (with alcohol of course) has developed into 10 or more a day (or night).  My withdrawal symptoms during the day have been headached, and most noticeable - extreme exhaustion.  I sleep at my work station, I nap at my lunch hour, and I nearly nod off during rush hour to & from my office.  But when I have my "stuff", I am fine.  I cook, I clean, I am sooo funcitonal. And dysfunctional, because I know it has to stop.

Please help me get through the detox part.  I can do it.  I just need to know what to expect, how long it may last, and if I'll need the support of anyone that doesn't know what I've been doing.  My bosses may be understanding to a point, but I don't want to tell anyone I don't have to.  

Thank you so much for being here, to read my angst.  I feel like a bad made-for-TV movie.  Yet, here I am, awaiting ANY reply.  Thanks again.
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Hey Petalsbear,

There is strength in nmubers. Just a short note to you and all others out there that believe that it is OK to "Doctor Hop". If all States have laws (and I believe that they do,check it out)like mine, then it is a felony offense to go from doctor to doctor, be treated for the same ailments and be prescribed a scheduled drug without giving the doctor prior notice that you are being treated by other doctors and receiving scheduled prescriptions. I know because I have been there and done that. If you want to know more about it then please ask me and I will fill you in with the details. I mention this bit of info soley for the purpose of education and saving anyone from making the same mistake that I did. Remember "Ignorance of the Law is no defense." JR.~
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I also worked in a medical office and started to phone in my vicsI did this everyday for a year and a half. I only got caught after I went into rehab and the Dr I worked for got suspicious and started to do a little detective work. I had it all down to a science rotating pharmacies and even calling them in under my husbands name. I was terminated but He did not press charges and no pharmacy ever knew either. whats even worse is that I was and still am good friends with his associate who also worked in the office and used her DEA # more than his and she forgave me. we are friends to this day. So I did **** in my nest so to speak but get the vibes my luck is about to run out. Badd
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Thanks to you both for your input.

It is not a question of whether we need healing, most of us here do. Nor it a question of my way or the highway, what ever works. In the end it is the acknowledgement that we need healing and want healing and get healing that is important. Recovery is not a judgmental act, it is just recovery.

For anyone who wants to get well, hang it there, keep a light burning in your eyes and a spark in your heart and whether or not you arrive at healing is more important than all the discussions of how you got there.  So feel free to talk about your quests to get free. On this board, diverse views are welcome. Peace in your quest. It is your desire to get clean that is what it's all about.

JF
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JR, need details on potential trouble. mine is in the past, but I still worry. can you email me? ***@****. thanks!
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Got your message and will get with you after I meet a friend for lunch. I have a lot of answers for you and hope I can be of service. JR.~
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JR's point about the illegality of "Doctor Hopping" was rather sobering (no pun intended).  Yet another good reason to stop the madness.  Easier said than done unfortunately.  I know many who juggle docs and Rx's, and did it myself for years and never got caught.  Even after a stint in rehab when I confessed all my sins and every doctor was notified by my employer, there were no charges pressed, no men in blue at my door, just a mailbox full of letter from doctors who no longer be needing me as a patient.  Perhaps there was a degree of sympathy involved, or it's just a hassle to pursue, but that may all be changing now thanks to Big Brother and wonderful internet which brings us all here together.  I've heard whispers in the wind of Mr. Ashcroft's master plan to bring the hammer down hard on those who abuse the system, and more and more pharmacies are either using the tactful but unbelieveable excuse of "We're all out of that medication," or the more direct, "We can't fill that for you."  JR, you made it sound as if you had run afoul of the law and paid the penalty.  If so, perhaps a brief recount here of your misfortune would be yet another reason for any addict to sober (and wise) up. Just a thought....

Petalsbear, there are many posts here, including some of my own, that can describe what to expect from withdrawal, so I will not recount it for you.  Unfortunately, you are placed in the awkward position of working at a physician's office.  But that doesn't mean you cannot seek help elsewhere.  Detox is ugly business all by itself, and then there is the long road that follows it, but a doctor who knows THE TRUTH about you and your problem might be able to make the process of detoxing a little less painful. I know from experience that a stint in rehab can also seem like a Scarlet Letter you have to wear for life, and it's hard to tell your employers and friends you're going away for a few weeks (at least) without telling them where, but that is another option that must be considered.  There you will get professional help 24/7 and the detox is much easier than doing on your own.  It can be done either way, but if you do it on your own, I would give yourself at least 72 hours of hell, and then expect the exhaustion and body pain to linger for a long time.  I know what you are feeling, and I especially understand the desire to keep it a secret, but the fact is that, come hell or highwater, people are going to find out one way or the other.  Neither are pleasant, but one is decidedly worse.  At least that's my take.  Choose your confidantes, seek professional help, go to a meeting, check into rehab, resign to start cutting back, take time off and go cold turkey....do something, anything, to light a little candle at the end of the tunnel and know that we are all here with you in the darkness. I write all this because I hear my own voice in the desperation of your plea, and wish I could just make it all go away for all of us.  That's not going to happen, though.  But this is a good place to be, a good place to start, and there are so many here who understand your pain and desire, and who are much wiser and experienced than I.  Read their posts, know you are not alone, and that there is a way out.
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Thanks for the last post and yes I do have personal experience with the consequences of "Doctor Hopping". I will somewhat paraphrase my story as it is somewhat lengthy.

I was a man in "blue" for 18 years. I lost an 18 year career in Law Enforcement, decorated at that, over VICODIN. My addiction started with a legitimate base. I have had 27 surgeries, 13 of which were on my knees. I also had many visits to the Dentist for root canals, extractions, abcesses etc... all allowing me access to many, many, prescriptions of Vicodin. In the last 14 months of my career, I had over 2000 of the Hydrocodone variations, Lorcet, Lortab, Vicoprofin, and all of the strengths of Vicodin-5/500, 7.5/750, 10/650. I was addicted for 12 years so you can do the math on the possible numbers involved. I was a functional addict. It acted as a stimulant for me, never a sedative. Even when I was taking 8 at a time in my last months of addiction, it made me ever so irritable and paranoid. My family could barely stand to be around me. Every time that the phone rang, I would nearly faint thinking that it was someone telling me to turn myself in because I had been found out. Well, it happened.

I got a call from my partner one evening saying that I had to be in the office at 8:00 am instead of coming on at 6:00am. I got that familiar paranoid shiver knowing that the change in my schedule was not good. I called my SGT. and asked him if I could stay home with my sick child that next day and he said " If it were any other day, he would approve my time off but that WE had to be at my regional office in a different city by 8:30am. I knew that I had been caught after I asked him if it was for a good reason or a bad reason and he said that he could not tell me.

I went in the next day and we went to my regional office where I was met by 2 LT.'s. My LT. said " I am not going to beat around the bush, we have information that you have had multiple prescriptions for hydrocodone over the last 14 months. At first I couldn't breathe and I saw my life flash before my eyes. The loss of my career, the loss of my family, and ashamedly the loss of my life because I certainly didn't want to live after all of that. I later met with a Narcotics Lt. and he read me my rights. He then showed me a printout of every doctor, dentist and pharmacy that I had been to in the last 14 months. What could I say. The secret was out. I was investigated for a 3rd degree felony in my state, for attempting to obtain a schedule III drug, hydrocodone (dihydrocodone) by fraud, deception, misrepresentation or subterfuge. The charge is Diversion under the Drug Laws of my state. Now, here I am a police officer for 18 years and had no clue that a law like this existed. It had existed for the entire time that I was a police officer. Remember"ignorance of the law is no defense."

I later found out that a pharmacist had turned me into DEA and they int turn turned it over to my department as they worked closely together anyhow. What I was doing was daily, going from doctor to doctor, to dentist to dentist, most of whom were my friends or acquaintences by virtue of my job. I would fill out a history sheet on myself for the visit but never tell them that I was already seeing a doctor elsewhere for the same thing. My purpose: to obtain a script for hydrocodone. My maladies were anything from my knee problems to tooth problems. I used these complaints strictly for the purpose of getting a script for Vicodin. I was horribly addicted. I can remember standing in the shower asking God to kill me or at least help me get caught to end this miserable existance. I would daily look in the mirror to see how small my pupils were for the purpose of knowing whether I could be around anyone that day. Narcotic analgesics will constrict the pupils, sometimes to pinpoint.

My case was eventually turned over to the assistant D.A. of my county. He had known me since I first came into police work in 1983. He refused the case saying that I needed help. There was also an internal investigation by my department but I resigned before it was complete and recommendations were made as to my furture with the department (as if I didn't know what was going to happen.). I entered rehab in June of 2001 where I met other addicts/alcoholics and this is where I learned about my disease.

There is no doubt in my mind that I was eventually going to kill myself with the vicodin,with the number I was taking, if not by overdose then by the amount of acetaminophen that I was running through my liver, which we all know is deadly in high amounts.

Take it from me and those of you out there who have had the same experience, It is a big lie, this addiction. Some of us are prone to it either by what was passed on to us by our fathers/mothers or by the mere use over and over again. I fell into the category of being 4 to 5 times more likely to be an addict or an alcoholic due to my father being a severe alcoholic (still is) and my grandmother being a very respected Nurse practitioner demeral/fentnyl addict. Imagine that. I am here for any of you seeking help. If I (we) can help you to get off and away from the addiction, please ask. Note: I do have anopther career now and my wife and son are still with me but it was not without much pain and very much understanding on all our parts.

In Christs Love, JR.~
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Hey man, the post above was great.... Hell, it belongs in the big NA book! With all you've shared in this forum you have helped me and many others more than you could possibly imagine.  Keep up the good work and fight the good fight!

Jess
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JR, thanks for sharing your story.  We all run the risk of losing our jobs.  It's funny how we all think we have this big secret that no one is aware of.  When I decided to get clean, I make a point of telling everyone that I was an addict fully expecting that they would be shocked beyond belief.  Wrong.  Most of them had already figured it out a long time ago.  When the first question you ask a family member when they're released from the hospital is if they got pain killers and that when you visit their meds disappear, people notice.  Not to mention the all the times you're wasted although you think you're acting perfectly normal. I discovered everyone knows even if they don't say anything. I'm very lucky that my employer decided to ignore my problem and now that I'm clean and my performance has improved I no longer have to worry.
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Your post reminded me of just how bad it was for me..and those around me. I remember drinking half of my daughters cough medicine then refilling it with water. I also knew that my neighbors son had surgery and when I was certain they were out of town I entered their home because I knew where they kept a key and I stole the tylox that I found. Same with my elderly parents, I helped myself to whatever I was "lucky" enough to find. The most beneficial aspect of treatment for me was the discovery of how common this Jeckel & Hyde syndrome was. I was convinced that it was just the way I was. But thats the way we all are when we use. It's good to be reminded of it too. Thanks.
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JR,

A very moving story. If you don't mind me asking, how long after the initial 5 -6 days of detox were over did it take for the subsequent lethargy and depression to lift so that you could function again with some spirit and energy for life? 1 week? 1 month?

Anyway, sometimes it's important to remember that there are very few people who wish this addiction on themselves. They fall into it, and it's a disease that they can't control without getting help. I got myself some Buprenex to help me through withdrawals (I'm kicking this week, again), but I decided I needed to go to my former addiction doctor and tell him. Just because I feel that for this to truly work, I can't just do it myself.

M biggest fear is the lethargy and depression that comes after the worst physical symptoms subside. I's absolutely unbearable to me, and I just hope I can last long enough till it lifts. I'm even thinking of taking Naltrexone to prevent relapse during this period, but some say it only increases deprtession by blocking the body's natural endorphins from working.

Any opinions on that?

Anyway, thanks again JR.
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Thanks for the comments friends.

As far as depression goes, this will subside. I did have to get on 50mg of Zoloft (half a yellow 100) a day to put the seratonin levels back in order that fell out of balance from my use. I now don't take it all of the time. I also function on a normal level each day which goes to prove that we don't "need" hydro. I say this will all of the life that I now have in me. I WILL NOT GO BACK. The only thing back there for me is death. I would suggest going to your doctor in earnestness and explain to him/her what you are trying to do, what you are determined to do about the addiction and let them help you. Ironic isn't. But think of it this way. We were the seekers. They were the unknowing participants of our manipulation and deception. I would like to believe that they would certainly have been unwilling to participate. MAKE yourself get up each day and EAT, EXERCISE and occupy your life with HEALTHY CHOICES. IT WILL TAKE DETERMINATION. The last thing that I wanted to do was anything. I lost my Father-In-Law on 08/21 from a fatality accident. I had to bear what I had done to my wife and son as well as what she now had to bear from the loss of her father. Could it get any worse? If I had not surrendered it would have. My lethargy lasted about 1 month but I still made myself get up each day and face the day with lots of vegetables, fruit and a willingness to get clean. I am now at 282 days of sobriety and still attend after care meetings as well as AA meetings with a great support network in all of it (as well as this forum). I am here to help in any way that I can.

In Christs Love, JR.~
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Hi All,
I started using vikes about 16 years ago along with valium. I have gone cold turkey without to much trouble just a few aches and some depresion. Now for the real problem. When i first started getting them my wife asked me for (1) today she is up to 20 per day. We have talked about getting her help , her problem is the fear of getting sick. She has only went off them once and she was sick to the max. The very 1st day the pain in her stomache sweats,chills fever ect..it took her all of 6 days just to start to feel (normal)..after going thru all that she went back to them anyway. Also she didn't eat nothing for thoes first 5 days. She can't function without them and now can't funtion to well with them. Her body actuallys needs them to eat, have normal bowl movements ect..Today she is going to the Dr. and i will do my best to make sure she trys to get help. I do very well understand the problems with addiction...i was also a METH junkie for about 20 years and understand the mental addiction that i found to be the hardest to kick. I have also been a Dr. hopper with scripts all over the place and have always if, or when i would get caught. Now to make maters worse we have a 7 year old son on Chemo Therpy with an inoperable brain tumor. I do pray and trust in God to give us some sort of soulation to all this. In finishing i would just like to say that i have been thru the mill and in most all of thoes situations you all have. With my own withdrawel i found drinking plenty of water helped by flushing my system but that too was minimal. I wish you all the very best in your struggle and pray that you too can overcome. I will take any personal replys at ***@**** for listing
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Your lethargy lasted one month?

Oh God help me, I don't know how I can get through that.

What's my choice? I've got to try and somehow get through it.
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Don't fret.

I look at at it like this: It will all depend on what your body does with the changes, the getting away from the vicodin. When I say that mine lasted a month, I was coming off a 8 at a time every 3 maybe 4 hours dosage. My body was racked with trash and it REALLY went through changes getting off of the script. Yours may not last that long. This is why I recommended the Physical/Mental activity, making your self do the exercises, doing things like reading,you know occupying your time. A good regimen of multi-vitamins as well as healthy meals accompanied by fruits and vegetables. I had lost sooo much weight because vicodin had replaced my food intake. I was 230 lbs at one time and when I got off of the vicodin I was 190 lbs. I have since gotten back into my weightlifting, running and a seriously healthy, "healthy" being the key word, diet. MULTI-VITAMINS. You will make it and you can bank that advice. But keep this in mind. Unless you are just a glutten for punishment, or you like to run around the fringes of insanity or maybe even death, remember the misery that you go through. Catalog it in your brain along with all of the other misery that addiction has brought you and those around you. However bad things appear now, after the SUN (SON) starts to shine in your life again, and it will, I promise you that, if you are serious about trashing addiction and finding out what real life is all about. I know the reality of addiction as do you and everyone else out there on the forum and I also know the lie and destruction that it teaches and gives us. I Thank God Almighty each and every day that I wake up and I am not nauseous, my mucous membranes aren't producing enough mucous in my nose and throat to float a destroyer, I don't have to worry if anyone is looking at my pupils, I don't have to worry about what doctor I can hit today that I have'nt hit since yesterday, or what pharmacy I can use since I have used them all in 3 cities. I don't have to worry about life anymore. I have found real and abundant life. You get the point. I pray for your strength and determination because I know that you can do it. If you put the same effort or at least one quarter the effort into your recovery as you did into feeding the addiction, man you have more strength than you know. I AM HERE FOR YOU.

IN CHRISTS LOVE, JR.~
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Thank you again, JR.

Here's the deal. I was clean for 18 years, then relapsed 2years ago, got clean recently but relapsed again. So on the one hand, I know how to live clean if I can just get past the initial lethargy and depression stage, which is much much more severe than it was 20 years ago when I first got clean from a tylenol #3 habit.

When I say lethargy & depression, I mean it's a supreme act of will to even get up from a chair and go pick up my baby. And I'm someone who normally loves being a Dad and has no lack of energy.

But I stare at the walls, so depressed. Climbing a short flight of stairs leaves me out of breath -- literally!

So that's how bad it was this time, and that's why I relapsed.

But somehow I've got to get through it.

Exercize? Sure, I know it'll help. But how to do that when I can barely get up from a chair.

Anyway, I'm sorry to be whining like this. I used to have some strength and fortitude, but somehow the addiction has killed it. My mind is powerless, it seems, to fight my way through this lethargy and get up on the stairmaster or something.

Plus, I'm thinking about going on Naltrexone right away to ensure that I won't relapse. But some (not all) say that naltrexone only increases your depression by supposedly blocking your body's natural endorphins from working.

So I don't know what to do. Except that if I fail this time I can't live with myself anymore. No way. If I fail, I'm done for.

So since I want to live so badly, maybe that's an incentive, no?

Anyway, JR, thank you so much for taking this much time with me.
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My friend, I can sympathize. I can still remember not being able to get out of bed and just laying there thinking about "The Good Old Days." Isn't funny how we had lives in the beginning, then we found things like Tylenol #3,(I too started on tylenol 3 in 1984 but a doctor caught on to that one pretty quick, like 1985. He sent me to a Psychologist and he told me that my doctor felt that I had an affinity for tylenol 3. Boy, that woke me up. I was'nt doctor hopping then. Just my doctor.) I got away from the Tylenol 3 for about 4 years and was then introduced to Vicodin after my first knee surgery. My point of all of this is that when we cause that T.H.I.Q to grow in our brain it never deteriorates. It only stops. If you don't know what that is, it is a chemical that was found in many of the "SKID ROW" cadavers, alcoholics and addicts, that was linked to the disease. The only way to stop it from growing any more is just not using. Enough Science and Biology.

When you went back to using, it all came back with a vengence. It will continue to come back with a vengence everytime that we use, getting worse and worse until, I believe, it will finally destry us mentally and physically. Now, let's talk about the self-reliance that we seem to have been taught, born with, however it came about, and grew in our "secret" lives of addiction. The only thing it taught me was that I had to rely on my manipulation and cunning in order to get more. I believed in nothing more than what I could put my hands on. What a big lie. I think that this also kept me running because I had lost all my compassion or care for anything else. Inwardly I was screaming for my family and friends to understand and help me but outwardly I had to maintain my secret due to shame and fear of losing everything. My Point: I had to learn and believe that I was fallible, I needed help. There was more to this world than just me. These next few lines speak of what it took for me to finally break out of myself. I new where my help would come from and Yes, I turned it over to the Author and finisher of my faith. my life. The Lord Jesus Christ. He has restored me after nearly 10 months with much more molding yet to come. But it is no longer about me. I had to decide if I wanted to live or die. You say that you are a daddy. I would bet my life on it that you love your child with all that you are. You do have life to offer your family. You are in the fog right now and everything is distorted, mentally and physically. There is Sunshine outside of it all. If it takes getting medical intervention to get yourself going then DO IT! Man, this is about life, not just ours which your recovery is paramount but in your recovery, everything else will start to gain priority in your life. It is going to take just that first couple of steps. I know that you do not want to waste away. I know what that depression is all about. I had to decide to stay there and put that SIG SAUER to my head or get up and Live as I was called to do, just like you. Man, LIFE is the answer, not death. You are still sane. You can still make the decision to get up and get help. The fog will not leave until you do. There is a scripture in the new testament and I can't remember the address at the moment but it says: " Satan is walking about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." PLEASE DON'T LET IT HAPPEN! I AM HERE FOR YOU! Talk to me.

In Christs Love, JR.~
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schlub:
i don't know about anyone else, but the best i can do is put my
head down and move forward. before i used drugs every day wasn't
so great, why should it start, because i'm detoxxed and clean?
about the depression ...there is a way thru though. tomarrow i
will have been junk free for 7 days. my pain level is real high.
i see pain doc tomarrow. i think i would like to check out some-
thing other than oxy for pain control. something good is going to
happen today.
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
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Hey guys, from your words to God's ears.

Perspective. Balance. Determination.

And a fair amount of grit.

Okay, if that's how it's gotta be, then I suppose that's what I'll have to do.

Thanks for your thoughts. They actually helped.
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Now that's what I call LIFE.

A saying that I learned in AA and After Care: "This too shall pass." It rings with much truth. I, We, are here for you. Don't forget that. We are in this together.

In Christ's Love, JR.~
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Schlub,
When I got through my detox, I had no idea the lethargy was going to hit. I truly thought it was just going to be 5 days of the flu and then it would be over.  Then...bamn, the lethargy hit, and like you, just getting out of a chair was an effort. Walking into another room took more energy than I had. I've never felt that drained in my life, and I was on all the supplements in the recipe plus extra ones.

My lethargy lasted about a week, then I felt mostly normal again. Maybe a little fatigued for a week more, but nothing like that intense drained feeling. It took a full month to feel totally 100% normal, but I think that is because I was taking the full amount of L-Tyrosine the recipe recommends, which I later learned was giving me major stomache cramps and continued diarhea (diarrhea). That amount for me was really toxic. I cut it down to 500mgs a day, which I still take.

I wonder if the lethargy is worse when you come off oxy. I was coming off hydro. You've been on oxy, right?
Kip? What is your lethargy like when it hits?
And Kip..I truly hope your Doc has something to offer you for your pain other than oxy. Please let us know how it goes.

love,
WW
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Well, it looks like I am the last one to thank you for that truthful and excellent post explaining your addiction and what it did to your career--as well as the legal ramifications...and I do thank you immensely for sharing.  I can only say I am happy that the DA did the right thing and got you help instead of persecuting you, because you were sick.  Personally, I do not buy into the disease model of addiction--and I in no way wish to stir up another hornet's nest here, folks, it's just my opinion, ok?--but I do think that addiction, disease or not, is a horribly debilitating habit that is just as bad as any disease.  

That said, I want to share that since posting here I have been incredibly depressed and have been battling suicide every minute of every day.  It had become that bad for me.  It was only here that I could find some shelter from the storm.  I started prozac two weeks ago and today, for the first day, I am starting to feel human again, like myself, which is utterly amazing.  I have not quit hyrdros completely yet, but I have been struggling to taper down, and now I feel even more strength to do that.  With the depression and the relentless desire for death, I just wasn't sure I could do it. I in no way intend that antidepressants are a cure-all or will make detox "easy," but I think that the replenished serotonin has made a huge difference.  I am going to augment the recipe by replacing the L-Tyrosine with the prozac, and then take the zinc, etc, while avoiding the 5-htp.  I'm sure a shrink will be able to help me adjust these levels appropriately and help me get enough serotonin pumping in there that I don't feel like the only way to quit is by sticking a gun in mouth.

Anyway, thanks JR for your candor.  I found your story both heartbreaking and inspirational, and it certainly is frightening to think that any of us can get busted for doing something we think is "harmless" when it isn't.  Also, we may not be as lucky as you and get thrown in the slammer instead of a treatment program where we belong.  My hat's off to you for your courage, tenacity and accomplishment.

And thanks to everyone else who makes this forum thrive.  Without out I may have taken the wrong way out of this mess.  I'm not out of the woods, nowhere near it, but I am on my way with your help and encouragement and that alone is cause for me to be indebted to you always.

I may be an atheist, but I do believe in this:  Keep the faith.
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I was so moved by your first post about your "fall from grace" that I immediately replied and did not read the rest of the threads, wherein you explained your daily dosage.  I was there once, too.  There were times I took up to 60 lortabs a day.  For weeks.  Uh, not good.  After getting clean, I was the happiest guy in the world.  Now that I'm back, I struggle to take 3 but usually it's 4 at a time, and about 4 times a day.  16.  160 mg.

I have to say that I think the prozac or any SSRI is a good starting point to getting off.  I'm only starting to not feel depressed, but just yesterday I was at that point where I was taking 16 norcos a day and only feel normal.  There is no high anymore.  I'm just staving off the withdrawal.  If I up the intake I will run out and then go cold turkey.  I white knuckle the days with even that amount and fight off the suicidal tendencies, and then today, for the first time, I felt like there was hope again, so it is something to consider for those of you facing the grips of suicidal depression.  I have not been able to stop thinking about killing myself for three months now and the only thing stopping me has been my daughter's face.  It was getting to the point where even that didn't matter and that's when I knew I needed to start taking something.  After ten days of 20 mg prozac I started the new prozac weekly, one pill a week, and I think it is kicking in because I am not hiding under my desk for four hours a day or laying in bed all day and not picking up the phone, avoiding my job, and waiting for my life to fall apart.  I have energy and desire and feel like my old self, ready to tackle this thing, whereas before I simply felt defeated, worthless and ready to die.

JR, your posts are priceless.  You've made a difference in my life and the lives of others.  I only hope that what I have to share here will help others even a fraction as much as you have.

To quote from my favorite movie, "Choose life."

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I know it must be hard right now, physically and mentally. I doubt I could add much to the supportive and insightful posts above except to say that for me, drugs robbed me of self respect and left me a mere vessel that needed filling with chemicals every few hours. I saw my kids growing and moving away, I saw the intimacy with my wife disappear and I watched the rich exchange of friendship wane, all for my warm and fuzzy around the clock fix. I wondered what my tombstone would read - "Here Lies Jack Frost not a bad guy until he hit 40 and then his life turned into ****, too bad."

Once that decision was made there was no going back, let life pass me by or get back into the rich pageant. That insight can keep one going through the physical withdrawals, through the lethargy and the days and weeks will pass. There will be a point where you reach a summit and look back and say with pride you made it and will never go back. We knew we would have to pay the piper, I knew it with every pill I took. Once the dragon is slayed you can watch the sun come up a free man, you can give your love and set and example for your kids, you can enjoy simple things like a bowl of ice cream or a walk without have to score drugs. In short you can enjoy what it means to be a feeling, giving human, not a drug vessel.

For you and for everyone fighting the battle today this little virtual community cares, keeps you in our thoughts and knows (re-read the success stories above) *knows* you can prevail. You will soon be out of that chair and up those stairs.

Keeping you in my thoughts,

Hang in there,

JF
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witchywoman:
first of all congratulation on 6 months! you didn't do for anyone
but yourself, so be happy and strike your balence.

about the lethergy (spelling), i just "put my head down and try to keep moving forward. at the end of the first week of detox i am overcome with self loathing, and i guess i harness that energy. but we all know about paying dues and singing blues!

when i was clean for 17 years, i noticed people in the 12 step
meetings i attended seemed to relapse at interval of 3 months. i've always wondered why. about 2 years ago i was reading in the british journal of addiction about "secondary abstenence syndrome." it seems a lot of addicts are on 3 month cycles of detox/abstence.further studys discovered the level of endorphin and met- enkaflin tend to "spike a peak" just before relapse. i always thought they would drop in levels before, but no they rise! i became so intrested i kept a log for one year. it just recorded when i really
had strong desire to relapse. i was shocked to find i was on pretty much a 3 month cycle too!

my wife is out of town till friday. when i talked on the phone
to her last night i was really bitching about my pain level.
LOL she had diverted a 40 mg oxy-c from me last summer. she told
me where it was. i even went and looked at the pathetic thing,
all lonely by it's self....i didn't sleep to well last night
cause of the pain and that damm yellow pill telling me how lonely
it was......it's still there. now all of you probably think i'm
nuts...hell i'll probably go back on today...but i was able to
ignore that damm yeller pill for at least one more night.

hey i just remembered what i do during the lethargic period. i
write. something about withdrawl (withdrawal) really gets words bouncing
around my head!! it's 6:oo am and time for work.

keep an angel on your shoulder,
never mind what the sad folks say..

kip
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witchy woman:
more about the lethargy. it takes me 5 minutes to drive in to
work. during that drive in time i remembered a part of "Naked
Lunch" by W S Burroughs. i seem to remember him describe the
lethergy we all are speaking of. he (Burroughs) called it "the
days of quab have decended on me. directly after a description
of his lethergy he described a condition called the "chucks."
this is when that horrid urge to consume sweets overtakes the
recently clean junky. last night i ate half my step sons birthday
cake and a half gallon of ice cream (hey i couldn't sleep). well
if that isn't ammunition for self loathing i just don't know what
is!!

the upper midwest seem caught in a strangle hold of damp coldness
that seems to get down inside a junky's bones. as i walked "meaty
boy" (my dog remember) my feet were slippery on the 4:30 am
grass. i looked at all the dark houses where the "sane" people
were wrapped up in normal sleep. i felt like such an outsider.
i could just imagine some upper middle class mother telling her
children to not be like that junky who walks his dog at all hours
of the night and day!! my long yellow junky teeth were chattering
in the cold and my footsteps crunched through frost, sounding
like my eyes opening aftr a long dry sleep. the partial moon and
stillness set me shivering even more than i was. i felt like that
song by the Hollys "look thru any window." your probably too
young to remember it....

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
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GOD DAMN IT, i f___ up again!!! but it was two nights ago, I had a "little yeller pill" I honestly couldn't even enjoy it, I was too pissed off, I shouldn't have done it, my stomach was turning the whole ride up to get my fix.  It was awful, anyway, here I am two days later, sitting in my chair yet my legs are dancing.  Anyway, life goes on as well as the battle.  It sounds like your are a great writer.  Maybe you could write some more of what is in your journal, if not, thats ok to.  Hope all is well. Talk to you soon.

GWH
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Thanks for all your support.

No witchywoman, I was on hydrocodone -- 30 or sometimes quite a  bit more per day.

I'm really curious about your recommendations for dealing with what will probably be 1-2 weeks of utterly demoralizing lethargy and depression. I can take Thomas' recipe (l-tyro & B-6, 5-HTP, zinc and magnesium), but I suspect (maybe it's just a bias against herbals) it won't help much. I can also try deprenyl, which if I'm not mistaken you once wrote about on another forum.

But might it be better to go on an SSRI like prozac now, so that when I'm through tapering of the Bup in 7 days or so I may have some added serotonin in my body?

I have a wonderful addiction doc, and I'm sure he'd prescribe it if I thought it might help. He knows it's the post-withdrawal lethargy that caused me to relapse twice recently.

Any suggestions, Witchywoman
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Schlub, I think that the kind of the depression that comes from opiate withdrawal is so dangerous (in terms of both relapse and suicide) that an ssri is a very good idea.
I would have definately gotten on an ssri post detox if the 5 htp had not worked so well for me.  I think the combination of deprenyl and 5 htp are what did it for me...the two are synergistic in that one boots dopamine and the other boost seratonin. That plus excercise and therapy and lots of prayer got me through.

But...if 5 htp is not strong enough for you, by all means, start prozac now. I've been on prozac and it was a great medication all except for the sexual side effects. I stayed on it six months (this was about ten years ago) and then got off it easily. Prozac is one you can just stop with no problem, unlike paxil and zoloft, which you have to taper from to avoid bad WDs.

The other thing with the lethargy is..I think it's important to just give yourself permission to take it very very easy for that week or two. Does your wife know what you are going through? My husband was very understanding, and didn't mind that I had no energy at all for a few weeks, since he was finally "getting his wife back" as he put it.  It helped me to really see the consequences of all that false euphoria, to really understand what I had done to my body. Being gentle with yourself and your body is important. Try to not approach yourself with a punishing attitude, or to fall into the trap of shame and guilt.  Focus on also knowing that it is only a matter of time before you body adjusts and gets back to normal. The body is very good at repairing itself, and if you give it rest, nutrients, some excercise, the right restorative meds and lots of TLC, it will come through for you.

Also..don't neglect your spirit. Whatever spirituality may mean to you, draw on it. I swear that it is what got me through the worst of it. I prayed, a lot. I wrote a lot in my journal. I was fiercely commited to loving myself through it, no matter what. And the powers that be, my higher powers, carried me through. Sometimes my higher power was this board, sometimes it was my friend who got me through, sometimes it was the Goddess herself. But whatever works for you on that level...if you have any belief at all...reach for it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, nurture your soul and spirit.

Hang in there. We are with you, every step of the way, no matter what.

love,
WW
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Thanks for your wonderful advice (and for your email, too).

I do have a special problem with lethargy and depression. My while life has been built around my willpower and motivation. I never went to college, but "willed" myself to become a very successful journalist and author. I have no clock to punch, and if I don't sit down at my desk in my home-office every morning committed, focused and ready to work, my family doesn't eat.

So that's why this deprssion and lethargy has been so intolerable to me and led me twice to relapse.

But maybe just taking a week off and letting myself be weak and useless and a complete Schlub is not such a bad idea.

Sometimes, as I forget-his-name said in the book "He," a warrior just has to let go and cast himself adrift upon the seas, trusting to fate and not his own will.

Thank you, sweetie.
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Be brave, be strong, be positive

When things get better, be committed, be disciplined

Pills are not strong enough to take you, you are stronger, you are wiser..... than those damned pills
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hey people:
just came from the pain doc. he was out of town unexpectedly so i
got this dutch south african resident. he got called away to the
ER to entubate someone. so.. i wound up with a very nice lady doc
from pakistan. no changes without my regular pain doc saying ok.
so i'm home now and i'm not real happy. by the computer sits a
bottle of 180 oxycontin 20mg and 60 oxyir. i've been drug free
for 7 days and a few hours...**** i don't want to **** and moan
but i was really hoping for a different approach. i feel like i
have a coin: one side has oxy, the other screaming ******* pain.
now my task is to flip this coin and try to get it to land on it's
edge. i'm a junky, i'm in pain, and  i have failed miserably to
strike a balence. don't have any idea what to do. i've been sitting
looking at all this oxy. it's my ticket to pain free. it's also
a loaded gun. right now this forum is kip's support system. i can't
get a hold of anyone on the phone....**** what could i expect any-
one to do any way?

feel like i've lost the angel
kip
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Kip...email me...I'll give you my phone number. I'm here for you anytime. I mean that.

***@****
You have the other email address too, feel free to use that one.

You were a huge part of saving my life and I can't sit back and do nothing while you need a friend.

I love you.

WW
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witchywoman:
problem- i'm using IR's windows box (i'm a mac user) any how i can't seem to acces her e-mail. i thought i got something sent,
but maybe not.....
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hmmm
Do you have an IM program? On aol I am Moonmagick Tara. I'm about to go into a meeting here at work, but I have a break in about an hour, so I can turn on my IM then, and we can chat.

I have IR's email, but if you can't access her email then you couldn't get that either.  

I'll check as soon as I am finished here at work.

Remember that angel on *your* shoulder!  :-)

WW
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witchywoman:
i can get sherri to walk me thru - go ahead and send phone # and
best time to call

i'm ok

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
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ok Kip, I sent an email to S's email. I hope it works!

love,
WW
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--I do not know know you nearly as well as others, but you have been a true inspiration to me; you have no idea how much YOUR comments have helped me.  I mean you have *no* idea... and it's more than just the drugs "stuff"--your spirit that shines through your posts is so intense and, well, for lack of an ability at this precise moment to come up with the right word, "good"  just so damn good.  So hang in there; I feel you have been the angel on *my* shoulder for a a couple of months now.  Truly...
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Kip. My mother suffers from chronic pain. she has adhesions, which are scars that pull at her internal organs. She's been on a host of heavy drugs for 3 years. The latest is Oxy. there are other ways, holistic ways... and you can do it. Acutputcure WORKS. Have you tried this? It might take awhile to 'take' but you can do it. That's what I've talked her into trying and it works!! She's a long time "AA-er". Tell us how you are. God bless this board, how we are there for each other!
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Hey Skipper,

Thought I would drop a line and see how your doing. I am really moved by your way with words. Man, the compassion that rolls off of your tongue is truly a God given talent. I'll bet you can help many people as you already have, myself included. I thank you for your heart.

You know, and I am echoing other posts by witchywoman, ketta and others, but there are other ways to deal with the pain. I am ignorant to the methods of pain management clinics which are on the rise, but you might check it out. Life is not what addiction has taught us. I believe that you know that as well as anyone on this forum. I can't tell you not to take those oxy's only you know what to do with those. You also know what can happen. It's good to remember those 18 clean years. That is a reference point to base your forthcoming recovery on. You haven't failed in falling back. Just don't stay there. It's not how we start thats important, it's how we finish. You have way too much ahead of you. I know it may be hard to see in all of the haze, but I can guarantee that there is life beyond all of it and I think that many here if not all, will attest to this fact. We are all in different stages of our recovery and we have all gained some wisdom along the way. You could say that we are sort of a power source and we are here for you to draw from. I am here for you.

In His Love, JR.~
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witchywoman:

whats to say????  i can not begin to explain the value of our
friendship. i remeber last summer when you were new to the forum.
you were a mess...but you were real. i'm touched with honor and
joy at the idea that i had a small part in the couragious change
you have undertaken!! now i'm the one who is the mess and you have
been a true friend.

thankyou and keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
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good people:
thank you for your concern and support. i feel like a real ass-hole
for doing the equivlent of throw a tantrum. somedays life stares me
down and then tears me to shreds. other days float on whistful clouds of joy. i just want to be in the middle. i'm real tired of the extreams.

besides feeling real disgusted with myself i'm ok for now.

keep an angel on your shoulder!!
kip
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To quote a line from a book I recently read--we can go along and the rest of the world can think we're okay, but often "our spirit is dog paddling."  I'm just glad you're feeling better; I wish I had some great insight on alternative pain control, but it sounds like others have some great ideas (that's what I love about this forum).  Keep us posted.
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good people:

yes i have been to 2 different pain mgt clinics. the first one
i went to i worked with a pain doc (md) and psychologist phd who
specialized in pain issues and alternate methods. i was "tossed
out" by the pain doc because of "non-compliance." what happened
was a mixup in appointments (they claim i missed 2 scheduled
visits). i still work with the psychologist on an as needed
basis.

i've been pretty much the whole route...epidurals, trigger point,
physical therapy, etc. the only thing i haven't tried is accu-
puncter.

i've been pretty much the whole route. after 2 cervical spine
surgerys, my neuro-surgeon told me there was not much more he
could do for me. i somehow got it in my drug addict brain that
maybe time would allow some of the discomfort and pain to sub-
side. i don't want to be on oxy the rest of my life, so i've
got to hold on to hope that maybe things will change with time.

yesterday i lost sight of some real fundamental issues. one of
these was my acceptence that i will not get the life i use to
have before this spine trouble started back. that doesn't mean
that i can't have a life of some sort. somedays i have trouble
accepting this and i start to feel realy screwed over - you
know the "poor me ****" that accomplishes absolutely nothing
except upsetting everyone around me needlessly.

so... i certainly hope everyone can accept my apology for my
immature behavior. the only thing i can say in my defence is i
guess i let myself get real tired in a number of ways. this
forum and it's membership has saved my ass before and will most
likely again in the future.

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
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No apology needed my friend. You did nothing wrong, at all. You reached out in a time of need, and that is what friends do to and for each other.

You remain an inspiration to me.

love,
WW
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Hey Friend,

To echo witchywoman, you did nothing wrong. You are reaching out just like everyone else on the forum. DONT ever feel guilty about that. It's when you quit complaining and reaching out that is the time to worry. Man, you just keep coming back here because each person here has a little life to offer you. We are here for you and to help in any way that is possible. Stay in there my friend.

In His Love, JR.
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hi everyone!  i am fairly new to posting on this board but have been reading for some time now.  all of your stories, good and bad, have been of great strenght for me.  as i had posted in a post a week ago (that no one responded to) i have been a Vic user off and on for a couple of years now.  but after having a new boss come into my company and his physical and verbal abuse, towards me drove to find peace and coping abilities within my Hyrdro.  only way to ease the pain (so i thought).  so for the last year or so i was up to 8-10 a day, then i found a dr. that was writing me scipts for 240 pills a month and those were lasting me two weeks.  i have been 9 days clean, and i'm just "high" on the fact that i'm cleansing myself...  my question is can anyone explain why we ache soooo bad? what is it about the Hydrocodone that makes us ache when we stop?  

I would truly appreciate it if someone could answer my question.  thank you...  :)
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Hi Stars, and welcome! I'm sorry no one answered your question before. Sometimes things get lost, so I'm glad you posted again.

I wish I knew the reason that there are aches and pains and lethargy after withdrawal from hydrocodone.  I think it has something to do with the way the body has not gotten back to making its own natural endorphins.  Apparently, the endorphins we have running through our system all the time keep us from feeling a lot of pain on a regular basis.  When we are on opiates, our endorphin production stops, and when we withdraw, it takes a while for the endorphin production to start up again.
That is my best guess.
It also may have a lot to do with nutritional deficiency. Opiates cause deficiencies in calcium, magnesium and zinc. Deficiencies in these can cause muscle aches, so supplementation is important.

I hope that helps, and good luck!
love,
WW
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kinda pissed at this moment in time...  just got thru writing a big ole long thank you and i *%$#@! deleted it by mistake!!!  gggrrrr..  but i do thank you WW from the bottom of my fast beating heart.  everything you said made total sense.  i was recalling the time i was addicted to excercise and i had zero pain anywhere, but as soon as i stopped (went to work) that is when i started aching everywhere...  so i totally believe the endorphen (sp) issue is correct, makes so much sense..  smart women you are.  i happy to say that i have been taking calcium for sometime now, but i am going to up my intake just alittle.. i will look into the others as well.  i started taking goldenseal and milk thistle the day after i quit my Hydrocordone.  not to mention tons of water and cranberry juice (natural cranberry juice).  i do have one more question if anyone could maybe give me an approx answer on how long does it take to get the energy level back up?  i was 20+ Vics a day over a matter of months.  I know everyone is different, but maybe just a ballpark figure.  i am so so tierd...  today is my 8th day free from "my personal hell".  i'm not even having any cravings, just feeling achey (achy) and tierd...  and God help me cuz i'm off to Disneyland tomorrow...  more than likely end up in a wheelchair or stroller by noon...  lol...  

i need to mention that everyone on these message board have my constant prayers and postive energy directed at each and every one of you, not to mention all the other lonely addicts that have no one...  we are so lucky to have one another.  i know for a fact that my recovery is due to alot of you on here...  i pray for strenght for each of us, to be free and to overcome..  life is so awesome, a gift, we can't let it slip through our fingers.  thanks again WW and everyone..


       sometimes voices in the night will call me back again
             back along the pathway of a troubled mind
       when forests rise to block the light that keeps a
                         travler sane
         i'll challenge them with flashes from a brighter time
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Hey there,

Glad to know you. I was away celebrating my 16th anniversary today. I truly feel for you going through the WD's. You should notice energy levels starting to rise in a week or two. It will also depend on your diet, exercise and determination. There is plenty of wisdom, learned wisdom to draw from out here on the forum. We are here for you. I will keep you in my prayers as well as all others out on the forum, for wisdom strength and spiritual, physical healing. God Bless you with continued strength.

In His Love, JR.
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what a welcome it was to also get a response from you!  congradulation on this very special day for you.  i look to my 16th anniversary...  i appreciate you answering my question.  a week or so is not too bad.  the lack of energy is hard for me since i am normally full of energy, with or without Vicodin.  and having four kids makes especially hard.  but not complaining.  i am grateful for everyday that i'm not swallowing a handful of pills..  thank you for the warm response and the prayers.  the power of prayer has no boundries and has worked in my life for a very long time.  blessings J.R., your story has moved me more than you even know.  in fact in the first few days of quitting i read your posts and in reading them it made me feel as though my withdrawls were nothing in comparsion to what you went through.  you are person to be strongly admired and a great asset to this forum..  may His love continue to embrace you.  stars
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hi to everone.  as you may have seen, i posted a question today using this site the first time.  i didn't know of this thread until afterwards,  but this is the thread where i'm at.

i've been on valium and vicodin for about 9 months straight due to bad back and knee surgery.  started abusing the pills, but am trying to get off and to get my body in shape.  back is well enough to do physical therapy now, so i started reducing the pills.  was on about 10 mg of valium and three 7.5 mgs of vicodin a day.  now down to 5 mg of valium a day and one vicodin (or vicoprofin)a day.  

have had all the symptoms all unwise, badgirl, dmr, ketta and others have had.  real anxiety -  wake up nervous.  now i'm getting real nervous cause i have about a week left before i run out.  my goal is go get down to 1/2 of one vicodin and 2.5 mg of valium before i go off totally.

do you think this will work,  and how much is the "panic of withdrawal" thing contributing.  i'm afraid i'm going to go back and try to get more (been here before in my life) and i am really trying not to go that way.

REALLY WOULD APPRECIATE SOME RESPONSES AND HELP ON THIS ONE....PLEASE!!
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Avatar_n_tn
Hi, I posted in your thread before I read this.  Going from 10 mgs. to 2.5 mgs of valium in one week is way too fast. Also, as I suggested in my other post you may want to only w/d from one drug at a time. Be aware that benzodiazapine withdrawl (withdrawal) is not the same as withdrawl (withdrawal) from opiates. There is a risk of seizures and there are some unpleasant pshychological symptoms such as extreme anxiety, panic attacks, depersonalization and even psychosis. You do not want to go there. 1 mg decrease every four days is about as fast as you should take it with the valium.  Opiate w/d is excrutiating enough but can be done cold turkey if necessary without life threatening symptoms. But benzos are a whole other deal. Be very careful there.
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One old junkie to another, I want to tell you that you are one of my favorite people here on this board.  I think you have just had a few bad days and will be just fine soon enough.  I get so damn frustrated, too.  With my wife slipping away daily with her health problems, plus my own, it ain't easy.  

Just a few minutes ago I had several 30mg tabs of MSIR in my hand and thought how easy it would be to down them all and go for the last "BUZZ".  The trouble is that my tolerance level is probably so high that I would enjoy the experience and awake in the morning wanting more!

In the end, I hate the incessant pain in my body.  I lovingly take care of my wife and hate that she is in severe pain from her cancer.  I have lost the desire to "quit" anything anymore and choose to live as respectively as I can manage.  We can still maintain our pride, Kip. Or am I just pissing in the wind?

J.B.
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I just wanted to thank you for my personal welcome to this site, it made me feel very good and special.I will try and keep in touch, but will always read the comments and ?. It's back to work tmo.I will continu to read the questions and posts. I willd will always send special thoughts to those of you who have relapsed or are "down" . YOU can do it! and there is always an angle watching over you.
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Avatar_n_tn
I just wanted to thank you for my personal welcome to this site, it made me feel very good and special.I will try and keep in touch, but will always read the comments and ?. It's back to work tmo.I will continu to read the questions and posts. I willd will always send special thoughts to those of you who have relapsed or are "down" . YOU can do it! and there is always an angle watching over you.
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Avatar_n_tn
JB:
good to hear from you! i've always been honered and helped by many
of your post. it's just there isn't enough! (how's that for being
a junky or a immature adult?) i'm still praying for your wife and
you. there is a way thru. be carefull with that morphine!! 1 grain
of ms in the gi tract can't amount to much but ya' never know...

dunit:
i always get real happy to see a new comer post again. see my plan
is to get a lot of people active on this site, so if i wander to
far off the path, someone will come pull me back on!! i'll be out
of town thursday - sunday, but will look forward to checking this site out as soon as i return!!

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
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Avatar_n_tn
Hey man, I am back in town if you want to talk. I can only talk every few days and on the weekend. I hope all is well, or at least better than it was. I continue to pray for the light to shine in your life. You hang in there my friend. I am here for you as we all are and here for everyone on the forum. Drop me a line.

In Christ's Love, JR.~
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Avatar_n_tn
Thanks so much for the praiseful words! I'd jump in here more often but I'm busy overhauling and restoring my neighbor's 1973 Peterbuilt tractor.  We've rebuilt the engine and transmission and are now into the differentials.  It's a great diversion for me as it keeps me focused on something positive...kind of a good reason to get up in the morning.

Spring is just around the corner and we should all start feeling the thrill of rebirth and growth after the long hard Winter.  Even us poor downtrodden addicts can still feel alive and hopeful again.  Better days are coming!

J.B.
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JB:
such a delight to get back in town and see your posting. went (read that tagged along) with my wife business trip to gulf port, mississippi. while she was in a meeting i was left to amuse myself in this hotel that was connected to a large complex of casinos. i'm not much of a gambler, but the people watching was great. my wife and i were among the "youngsters" crowd. saturday morning i walked most of the way out on a break water that ex-
tended out into the gulf. the breakwater went south about 1/2 mile and then turned west. nothing much eventful happened, wich for my money is GOOD. all in all i was pretty well behaved. i don't think anyone is pissed off or mad at me.

JB, did you say you were helping a neighbor rebuild a semi-truck
diesel? that sounds like some honest dirt under the finger-nails!
watch out and try and keep as much of the skin on your knucles as
you can. hope your wife is doing as well as can be expected. know
that the 2 of you are in my thoughts and prayers.

keep an angel on your shoulders
kip


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Avatar_n_tn
It sounds like you had a wing-ding of a time!  There's nothing like the sea and a casino to lift the spirits in us.  

Yep, it seems my new hobby and maybe livlihood is in the mechanical field.  Word gets around, you know.  Actually, I was a heavy diesel mechanic for over thirty years but am on total disability presently.  I just knew I'd get back into it again someday! I can't do the heavy lifting anymore but I have a couple of teenagers that help me in every way.  It's good for them to learn and it helps me to feel useful again.  

I was hurting tonight when I got home and my wife asked me if I wanted some pain meds.  I was able to say "no" again....don't get me started.  Anyway, 9am comes awfully early and we are going to mount new tires on the old Pete(10 of them).  Be good!

J.B.
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HEY THIS IS MY FIRST POST AND IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENTION
THAT I NEED TO SEEK HELP. I AM GENERALLY A STRONG PERSON ALTHOUGH
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN LIFE I AM IN NEED OF GETTING OFF HYDRO'S ESPECIALLY OXYS. I DO NOT HAVE ANY LEGIT. REASON FOR TAKING THEM ONLY TO GET HIGH. I'VE BEEN TAKING ABOUT 4-40'S A DAY. IT STARTED WITH PERKS BUT THE O.C.'S WAS MY CHOICE. I HOLD A PROFFESIONAL JOB AND AS OF NOW HAS NOT BEEN AFFECTED (YET).
I AM IN THE PROCESS OF TAPERING OFF BUT HAVE NOT YET STARTED.
LIKE THE REST I AM SCARED OF THE WD'S. I HAVE EXP. THEM BEFORE AND I AM SCARED.............I SAW A PROCEDURE WHERE YOU COULD RAPID DETOX. IN 4-6 HRS. UNDER HOSPITAL CARE. I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM IN FOR BUT I HAVE THE DESIRE TO GET CLEAN AND STAY CLEAN. MY PROBLEM IS THAT MY WHOLE LIFE I'VE ALWAYS HAD TO BE HIGH NO MATTER WHERE I GO. I AM A SINGER IN A PART TIME BAND AND IT WAS AND STILL IS A GREAT FEELING TO BE (OXY'D)ON STAGE. IT USED TO BE THE WEEKEND THING ALTHOUGH NOW IF I WENT W/OUT I WOULD CERTAINLY FEEL THE WD. AND I AM VERY SCARED OF THAT. COULD SOMEBODY GIVE ME A PERSONAL OR ANY INSIGHT ON RAPID DETOX OR PLEASE ANY INFO ON THIS PAIN IN THE ASS HABIT I HAVE FORMED?
I ALSO WANT TO APLOGIZE TO ANYBODY USING PAINKILLERS LEGIT.
I HAVE READ THE WHOLE FORUM AND WILL CONTINUE. JUST GETTING TO THE POINT OF WRITING HERE (TO ME)IS THE FIRST STEP AND YOU ALL ARE WONDERFUL PEOPLE. LETS DO IT TOGETHER AS A TEAM.

SEMI-SMILING IN PHILA.                  RONNIE
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WOW

I truly dont know where to start.

I was a heroin addict for three years....i started a methadone prescription to come off...only to find that the methadone withdrawl (withdrawal) was much worse...then a 'friend' told me about oxycoton, great....having a serious problem with opiates and desperately wanting to stop the pain i used OC....it was amazing, in an instant it ridded me of any pain of uncomfortableness i waws feeling....i have been using OC for about 3 months now, and im petrified to come off it....a few times i havent been able to get any and i havent felt good, but before the REAL withdrawl (withdrawal) kicked in i managed to get hold of some....can somebody tell me...is it harder or easier than heroin/methadone withdrawl (withdrawal)??....what should i expect?...what are the differences??.....is there anything (except bloody opiates) that i can take to dull the pain?

i would really appreciate any advice or stories any of you may have that would help....and if anyone would like to ask me anything then please do

thanks

im sooooo thankful for the internet :)
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philly bee a.k.a. the lapper

kathryne,
        well i did it, i went to dtox about two weeks ago and have been clean ever since. i have been going to n.a. meetings and they are really helping. last night was the first night i slepped w\out my legs kicking (i am told it was the methodone)
i feel so relieved from the chains that have broke free. it has
been a long time coming and i feel good. i seem to be fighting the cravings although "JUST FOR TODAY " i will not. started to work out in the gym and that really seems to help my body.
you have all the power to do it ..........
JUST DO IT FOR YOURSELF.........GOD BLESS

PHILLY BEE
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i'm actually just responding to myself here, to the post i wrote a couple days ago.  because i feel okay RIGHT NOW.  and part of me knows that i've only been clean for three weeks and that i can't expect everything to be okay yet.  this is worth it, i know.  i've just got to chill out a little and be patient...hope everyone else is doing well.
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Avatar_n_tn
actually, i meant to write that i'm responding to the post i wrote a couple of hours ago, not days.  he he..
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a quick question for anyone who has an answer:
how do you know when the depression you're feeling is no longer a symptom of withdrawl (withdrawal) and is now merely back to "who you are."  after all,I, and probably many others of you, became desperate enough to turn to these pills for a reason--because you thought you needed relief from some kind of "unquiet mind".  (well withdrawl (withdrawal) taught me one thing: if i thought i was unhappy before, hydrocodone withdrawl (withdrawal) showed me that i really didn't KNOW what unhappiness could be.  so, drugs are not a cure-all, after all.)  but just because i've proven i can white-knuckle my way into sobriety this far doesn't mean that i will find happiness at the end of this dark tunnel...life was a pretty shadowy tunnel before i got into this horrible mess, anyways.  what does a naturally depressed person do when they think they've discovered only two options...1)drug addiction that initially creates happiness that you never knew was possible but inevitably leads to the depths of hell that makes the whole thing so not worth it, or 2) no drugs, and consequently, no impending depths of hell, but instead an overall feeling of "life isn't really worth it but it's not nearly as bad as the first week of sobriety cause nothing is that bad."
i'm asking because i've read a lot of posts about how long it takes to getting back to feeling normal and i'm worried that that happy end is not in store for me.  are most of you people who are going through a hard time because you're kicking a horrible drug, but generally feel that once you've kicked it life will be good again?  
i hope i haven't been defeating to anyone in any way.  i firmly do not think hydrocodone is the answer (although i did at one point and for a long time) but i don't know for sure that sobriety isn't just the lesser of two evils.

i'm only asking because i'm desperate...
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I have often thought substance  abuse is a symptom of something much deeper.  I did not like myself to begin with, then my dad-my mom-my last and favorite grandma, all died in years 1995-1997.
One per year, I was in too much emotional and physical pain.  The rehabs never helped me.  I used to address myself as "hi, i'm ava, an addict and reprobate".  I told people I had no soul.
I'd say I used it all up.  It is gone.  I guess I was not a good patient.  Since then, I'm learning to be better to myself, and I think better of myself.  This forum really helps.  You can finally start looking at what is bothering you, now that you are clean.  Each time you use, you lose a part of yourself. I hope my post was not too depressing.  I post what happened to me in hope someone can identify with it, and get better.  Things do get better.
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Well hello all.  I know that I am going to sound like the same thing you have been reading here. However, you guys are about my last hope.
     I have been taking Hydrocodone 10/660's for 4 years.  I take 7 pills in a 24 hour period (Where I sleep about 12).  Obviously this had become a serious problem. I have either tried to or been forced to quit due to outage, and NEVER made it past 3 hours without them until about 3 months ago.  I ran out, and I tried everyplace I knew to get them to no avail.. Finally, after countless hours spent in ER's across 5 towns... I gave up.  I quit cold turkey.  It was absolute HELL for about a week and a half... then, after that the symptoms only seems to subside enough to be able not to cry in pain.  Then, I fell into a BAD depression.  I did not want to kill myself, but prayed that I would die, which is NOT me.  I remember the life I had before this.  I was the bubbly life of the party.  I have robbed myself of my own life.  Well, anyway, FINALLY, one day I woke up and I sat straight up in bed to get up. I was smiling and I SWEAR I had a buzz...lol Like it used to give me. I felt good, I had beaten IT!! My house was being cleaned spotless everyday again, my sleeppattern was normal, and I was singing again. Ah, and memories were flooding back ( I totally had blocked most of 4 years OUT.)  We moved back to the town I loved, my marriage became wonderful again ( Shh, don;t you tell him I admitted it was  my bad!! lol.)  Then, one day I told my friend that I had a headache (sinus), she said: hey I got some pain medicine stuff here If you need some..."  My ears perked up like a doberman on a bone...I said oh YES!! I will be right over. Well I'll be damned if that bottle of liquid hydrocodone didn't turn into 4 more prescriptions...It started the whole damn thing again. I began to feel sick as I did while on the meds.  Don't get me wrong. I felt GOOD on them, but always had a cold, or my chest hurt (it slows down your respiration, bowels, blah blah.)So, here I am again, OUT of the thing that makes me me... I can't be me without it. I don't want it any freaking MORE!!!!! But, I feel even while writing this post that I am craving so bad I would give anything to have 1 danged hydrocodone. Just 1.  But as you all know, 1 is NEVER enough..... How can I beat this thing and take back my life? How can I finally be able to say NO to a Dr. or a friend who offers me pain meds? I am absolutely addicted.  I truthfully do not know if I can make it through what I made it through last time.  I spent 3 nights on the phone with drug councelors- crying, pleading with them to help me.sleeping in the hot bath tub because that is the ONLY time I did not hurt, and I mean hurt BAD.  Please forgive the language here I use and the probable fragments, and interrupted thought patterns, but I can barely think at all. My mind is going nuts  just trying to cope.  That damn stuff steals your life and replaces you with a desgusting, pethetic, lying junkie! I don't want this for my life anymore.  Someone please help me to help me.... Love,  Shaianne
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Avatar_n_tn
If i took oxycodone and began to get addicted to them and then started to take hydrocodone would the addiction grow for oxycodone or would i just grow a new addiction towards hydro?
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Avatar_n_tn
It would be the same thing.  You can replace one for the other.
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