Day 3 total detox - no suboxone - no roxies - when does it get better?

yuck - this ***** - i have done this so many time before - that is what makes it so stupid.  and i don't even remember how it goes - today is day 3 with nothing.  I was doing roxies for 2 months - did a 1 week suboxone taper - then cheated & did roxies thursday/friday/part saturday.  i couldn't move sunday & monday.  today i am kinda up but i am filled with anxiety.  back aches.  chills.  pupils are large.  can anyone remind me of when this gets better?

[JordanKnight]

Depends... How did you do the transition from roxies to subs?

AGAIN, THE RULE OF THUMB:
You CAN go from Subs TO other Opiates safely.
You CANNOT go from other Opiates to Subs safely.
By "safely", I mean without caution, and without planning.

If you're on Subs (Suboxone, Subutex), and you take an opioid, say Vicodin, in theory nothing should happen. It should take a few days for the Subs to work their way out of your system enough for you to actually experience any effect from the Opioid. This is because the neuroreceptors that can "accept" another opioid are being "used up" by the Subs. Thus, you just keep taking roxies, vicodin, whatever, until enough of the subs have "let go" for you to feel the opiates again.

If you're on roxies, and then take Subs without ENSURING ALL OF THE OPIOID IS OUT OF YOUR SYSTEM, the Subs will "rip free" the neuroreceptors, basically yanking off the opioid to settle in its place. Unfortunately, this tearing process is very similar in nature to hardcore withdrawls (indeed, they're termed "precipitated withdrawls"). The pain on this is that the PWD's can't be eased by more opiates OR by Subs, they just have to be ridden through.

So the question I have is: What were your doses of each? How long did you wait before switching back to the Subs? How long were you REALLY taking the roxies before switching back.

[banana911]

on roxies steady since february.  30 mg pills - i could do 2 - 4/5 a day.  
about 10 days ago i started a suboxone detox.  starting with 8 mg day quickly going down to 2 mg on the last day.  
but my last day of suboxone i got another round of roxies.  so back to about 5/day for the weekend.  
sunday nothing, monday nothing.  today nothing - - really thought i would be a little better than this.  

[JordanKnight]

So to be clear,

You're neither on Subs NOR Roxies right now? It's been three-four days since you've taken either?

Understand, Subs ARE an opioid. A strong one. They just don't have any of the "pleasant" effects that others do. As such, when you go onto Subs, then switch back out to "others" your tolerance will be way the hell up (hence why you're on 5/day instead of 2-4). I was on 5-8 Norcos per day until I went through a Sub cycle. Found myself on 16-20 after that to get the same effect.

I'm unclear on what you mean by sun-today: "nothing". Does that mean you've taken nothing (neither Sub nor Roxie), or you've had no effect from what you ARE taking (which is what)?

If you've not taken anything in three days, you should be safe to switch back on to Subs. The key for starting them is to ensure you're in "full-blown withdrawal". If you switch back onto them your symptoms should stop within an hour.

If you're expecting a single 10-day cycle of Subs to have "cured" you of your withdrawals, it doesn't work that way. Subs take MONTHS generally to wean you off, even of a light addiction. Indeed, I'm of the personal opinion that if you're hooked on a light enough amount, Subs will do more harm than good.

Break down specifically what you're dosing and I'll give the best advice I can:

Your Chart:
February-May 7: Roxies
May 8-13: Suboxone (decreasing mg dosages)
May 13,14,15: Roxies (150mg/day)
May 16-18 (today): Nothing?

Do I have that right?

[avisg]

I would not start subs again ,They are not to be used as a substitute between using opiates .I would continue to CT and get your self into a good recovery care program whether it be aa/na or a addiction doctor something . If not all you are doing is abusing another drug.

[JordanKnight]

I'll have to both agree and disagree with avisg...

Subs are absolutely NOT a "substitute" for other opiates. They are a quitting program. Using them as a substitute is like switching to the nicorette patch simply because you can't find your brand, but dropping them as soon as you buy another pack.

Conversely, there are plenty of people out there who want to quit, can't afford the incapacitation resulting from white-knuckle, cold turkey withdrawal, and actually intend on using the Subs as directed.

I've been answering you banana as though you "fell off" the Sub wagon and are trying to get back on. Plenty of people screw up, relapse for a tiny bit, and are trying to undo the mistake. If that's you, then by all means, do whatever will help you the most. If, however, you're trying to work out a way to "swap" from one to the other, or to use Subs simply when you "can't find" your preferred dose, then you're making your addiction worse.

[avisg]

If they are using it as a tool in recovery it can be an excellent tool along with a recoverycare program .If it is being use to "tide you over between " drug binges it is not .If he wants to go on sub he needs to go to a sub doctor and get in a program .When you are getting them off the street you are keeping yourself it the same addictive cycle.

[JordanKnight]

I couldn't have put it better myself than your most recent post. We're on the same page, just using slightly different wording.

Speaking as someone who is in a doctor-prescribed program for Subs, as well as someone who is going through the shame, pain, and embarrassment of trying to get safely back on them after a relapse, I have a special place in my heart for people who are trying to do the right thing, recovery-wise, while simultaneously trying to face down the internal demons that let them relapse in the first place.

[banana911]

Yes - the chart is correct - sorry for not being clear.  
Your Chart:
February-May 7: Roxies
May 8-13: Suboxone (decreasing mg dosages)
May 13,14,15: Roxies (150mg/day)
May 16-18 (today): Nothing?

I am not going back on suboxone.  I am on day 3 of nothing & just wanna go for it.  Plus broke & other reasons...  (my last long term subutex treatment a few years ago was the worst detox I have ever done)  I just thought that it was not gonna be as extreme - but here I am .  If I remember correctly after 1 week the worse of it is over.  I don't know what I was thinking that a day or two of discomfort would be it.  I have it really bad in my limbs - just creapies & the anxiety seems to eminate from my limbs.  and back ache bad.  chills.  I have been trying to read through old posts to see how others progresses... how quickly, ect.  

[dominosarah]

I fully understand that the wd's suk and are miserable but the bottom line is what are you going to do differently so you dont go thru this again?  Gotta get into some type of recovery care.  Using is only a symptom of what is going on.  Try taking some warm baths or showers as that helps with the aches.  Drink plenty of fluids also......sara

[JordanKnight]

Ahhhh,

Well, first off: Good for you! Broke or not, it takes a lotta stones to go CT.

Generally, you're looking at 72 hours for the peak of the worst withdrawal symptoms (and it sounds like you're coming through that now). After, the following 4-7 days (7-10 total) are generally the worst, with the nastiest of them tapering off after that. The emotional ones, in my experience, last the longest. The most unpleasant (shakes, fever-chills, diarrhea) usually clear up in around 5 total days.

By the sounds of it, you only have about 48-72 more hours to make it through, then it'll be similar to a case of the flu meets nicotine withdrawal.

[banana911]

Thank you so much - - I just needed to categorize it somewhere in my head & know what I am up against.  Such a bad day :(

[JordanKnight]

I feel that bro.

For what it's worth, I'm deep in the midst of a WD agony-fest myself. I feel you man. I know a fair amount about WD's (I've tried to cold turkey a number of times), but the symptoms get so bad for me I invariably break down and wimp out. The last few times I tried I was vomiting blood before the end of the first week (I get convulsive shakes and vomiting so frequently I shred my stomach lining, and diarrhea so bad I've needed an IV drip two out of three tries).

If you've made it almost four days, then you're more than halfway through the worst of it. Hang in there man, and keep posting. Just keep yourself occupied.

[blackkennedys]

Today was my last day tapering off my year long of snorting 5-10 roxys a day which was totally unexpected and now the resentment fills me. Today I took my last half of a r30 and I'm excited/terrified to see what tomorrow brings. I know I still want them and the life I had on them more than anything but I know it will go away. I'm terrified of withdrawls and I have some benzos to help but I want to get back to a normal life. I wish nothing bugt the best for you and myself. This drug is a monster and I can't wait to be off and back to a normal life. I will let you know my progress wether you care or not. This helps me and your post give me hope. My best wishes to all