Depression from Opiate Withdrawl

[Brighty]

Everyone I have ever known or heard of that got off any opiates was left with severe depression. Is this a standard side effect and how long will it last and how is it best treated? My friend's nephew just went to an addiction doctor who gave him buprenorphine injections and other scripts to get off pain pills. When he asked about an anti-depressant the doctor said "no mood enhancers for addicts." This seems unusual to me.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Hi Brighty!  I'm no expert about AD's but I can say that I've had little luck with them myself.  The last time I went through a detox and rehab program, I was taking Paxil.  This was recommended because I was also being treated for Hep C which also causes depression.  Most of the people in my group were not given any AD's though.  There must be a good reason for this, I suppose.  If you read some of the posts in the MGH depression forums, you will hear a lot of bad things about them.  

This may sound strange but when I was on Paxil, I started drinking heavily after about three months.  I rarely even had hangovers.  But it ended me up in the hospital again and back into detox for alcohol.  I've heard similar stories from many others.  Maybe the doctor is playing it safe?  There was a local man here that took a gun and shot at his kids(didn't hit them)and barracaded himself in his house, later wounded himself badly.  He was on Prozac at the time.  I can almost understand what he was going through to get into that state of mind after my own experiences with AD's.  Good old fashioned therapy might be a whole lot better for us addicts...A/A, N/A, etc.  J.B.

[Tara]

Hi Brighty,

When I started my withdrawals my depression was worse than I could ever imagine.  I slowly tapered down and also took zoloft (I found this to have few side effects).  This helped immensely along with the thought that it was just a withdrawal and it wouldn't last.  The depression decreased rapidly and completely within 3-4 weeks.  However, without the slow taper and the zoloft, I honestly don't think I could have made it.  Also I find that keeping extremely busy keeps my mind from going into depressed mode.

I hope I have helped somewhat.


Take care,

Tara

[Thomas02]

I've heard Dan talk about the brain taking a while to begin producing endorphins naturally, the substance that the opiates mimic. I think that's got a lot to do with it. I tried zoloft for a while but it just made me feel emotionally flat, which distressed me even more. I was put on Prozac another time. It turned me into a total space cadet to the point that I was literally afraid to drive a car for fear my mind would wander and I'd forget I was even behind the wheel. I stopped them myself after a few weeks and felt better immediately. When it comes to recovering from opiates, I don't think increasing serotonin and norephenephren (SP?)levels is the answer. One way or the other, we have to get back those endorphins. That's tom's two cents worth anyway.

(a big hug to all)

[Gloria]

Brighty, it's good to see you post again!  I rarely post, but since coming to this forum, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your words of wisdom, encouragement, and understanding.  As a mental health professional and a recovering addict of 15 years, I was appalled to hear what happened to your friend's nephew.  Addiction is a very complex disease (as you well know), but within the mental health community, it is a well-accepted belief that most addicts are medicating an underlying mood disorder (depression, anxiety, social phobia, bipolar disorder, etc.).  In my opinion, to withdraw an individual from his drug of choice and expect abstinence (without dealing with the underlying cause), is akin to placing a child in the home of a known child abuser and acting shocked at what happens later to the child.  If this individual used opiates to elevate his mood, not only is he now at high risk for relapse (if he is not placed on some form of anti-depressant), but he is also at high risk for suicide.  I agree with J.B. that this individual needs to involve himself in some type of 12-step program, sponsorship, work the steps, etc.  Anti-depressants have their place in recovery, though, and like ALL medication have the potential for misuse and abuse.  If your friend's nephew finds himself getting in trouble/struggling with his mood after detox, I hope he seeks out another opinion regarding the use of anti-depressants in his recovery.  Anti-depressants, anxiolytics, and mood stabilizers have spared many an addict from relapse when used properly.  These medications are not "crutches," but life-sustaining medicines no different than Insulin.  Please tell your friend that I wish their nephew the best of luck during this very difficult time.
Glad you're back, Brighty--know that you have been missed.

[chris]

I have found the following to work everytime I detoxed.  I finally stopped completely 6 months ago and hope thats it!
- L-Lysine (an amino acid 2-6x's / day helps to rebuild your opioid receptors
- A diet high in carbohydrates - if you can't tolerate food then drink "Carbo Force" or "Pedialyte" (This helps stimulate production of serotonine)
- Exercise is the best solution for a long-term recovery
- lots of Vitimine C and B-Complex
- lots of Water
- liver cleansers such as Dandelion and Milk Thistle help shorten the duration of symtoms and aid in improving the health of your liver.
- some natural homeopathic energy supplements help but stay away from ephedra products !

if you follow the above advice you will notice a substantial increase in your stimina and general well being within days.  AND YES - your energy level and mental health will return to normal anywhere from 7days to a month - in most cases, I was back to feeling 100% w/in a week but this is different for all folks - good luck

[chris]

my appologies - I have a correction in my last post - rather than l-lysine it should have been L-Thyrosine !! - although L-Lysine will help improve your immune system it will not do squat for the repair of your opioid receptions.

[spook]

Protracted abstinence syndrome: begins when the acute phase(hanging out) of opioid withdrawal ends and persists up to 6 months: depression, abnormal responses to stressful situations, drug hunger, decreased self-esteem, anxiety, and many other psychological disturbances.
Recurrence or expression of underlying personality problems that drug use may have masked( and all humans have) should be expected, diagnosed, and treated appropriately.Taking an Antidepressant if you can find the one that works best for you,may/can help you through this period.but the mood disturbance is just one component of the little recognised PROTRACTED withdrawal syndrome.nb with Methadone it may take up to a year before you are back to normal,and remember Opioids are not Neurotoxic like alcohol,cannabis,MDMA,etc,etc,so hang in their and you will one day be free of the hand that offered you Pleasure but stole your life.If you fail do not fret as Materialism is just as Addictive and Pathalogical,you are a normal person who just cannot handle emotional issues associated with this sick society.  

[PS >>>>Annie]

I don't have much to offer in this area, but will share what experience I do have.  I was put on Prozac (supposedly) for 2 years back in "96, for post-traumatic stress disorder, and  I had heart palpitations and severe anxiety.  After taking the medication for 2 months, I was unable to show any emotion.  You could have told me something horrible and I would have stared off as though nothing were wrong.  I became increasingly concerned, because I knew this was not me.  I took myself off of the medication and never have taken it again.  I felt like a piece of stone w/ no emotions.  Maybe it has helped some people, but I was not one of them.  Just a little perspective.

[cindi]

I had been abusing opiates for many many years before I went into rehab.  This is just my own personal experience and I am not saying I agree or disagree with the use of AD.  I never felt depressed after coming off the opiates.  The things that I felt I learned were just plain human emotions I was not used to dealing with.  Cying, pain, sad anger etc. are just everything i masked with the opiates.  They made me feel like super woman, like I could accomplish a million things at one time.  I had to get used to the fact that if I was tired I needed to rest, crying was ok and feeling sad was also normal. And so what if the dishes were not done and the beds were not made,  I would not burn in hell.  i did try a few different Ad awhile down the road and felt no different.  On the other hand a friend of mine was not taking her medication as she should have been and she killed her 3 year old twins in the bathtub.  She is now spending her life in a mental institution.  Like I said this is just my own personal experience.  They can work well if needed   thanks  and good luck to all  cindi

[cindi]

Sorry to interrupt this thread but I tried to post and for some reason it would not let me....I just came back from the drugstore and I am so pissed off at what I over heard I just needed to vent.  While I was waiting for my antibiotics a car came through the drive thru window wanting a script filled.  I over heard the tech ask the pharmacist is they were filling oxys today and the pharmacist said no  tell them we are out I don't feel like filling one more schedule 2 drug, they pass them out like candy and I'm sick of it.  She (the pharmacist is a friend of mine) then looked at me and said " I just usually say we're out of them".  What if this person needed the oxys for really sever pain  This does not seem professional and she is in no position to be playing God.  On Monday I had a script filled for a 2 ounce bottle of Vicodintuss. I have pneumonia.  taking this stuff every 4 hours 2 ounces does not last long.  I called my doc for another script  I told her it did not necessarily have to be Vicodin but it needed to be fairly strong cuz I have been up all night coughing.  she called me in a script for Robitussin with codeine and the same pharmacist refused to fill it because she said she is not allowed to fill 2 scripts with codeine in it this soon..and while I'm on the subject, another pharmacist at the same store was working when i brought is a script for Prilosec.  I had previously been taking Zantac (both for stomach problems)  This pharmacist refused to fill the Prilosec because he said it was the same thing as Zantac.  ( it is not exactly the same)  He told me it was illegal and he'd just have to tell my dr. about it.  Who do these pharmacists think they are playing judge and jury?  On the positive side, There are some good pharmacists out there who will go out of their way to be pleasant and helpful.  Well, ok I guess I've vented enough  thanks for listening   cindi

[Beanie]

wow they have changed this since i posted last!
thought I picked my own password last time?

Cindi,
I just had to write and say you need to call the Store Manager of that Walgreens and I would suggest the pharmacy manager or head pharmacist, if she isn't that person, and report this pharmacist!! You need to tell what you overheard about the person with the oxy script and what happened with you...Your doctor has a right to change your medication at anytime..
She certainly COULD have filled the other cough syrup.

I would most certainly find out the number to corporate offices, maybe they even have a spot on their website..I believe that they have pharmacies on their website to answer questions. let as many people know in connection with that company as you can.

That is SO totally unnacceptable to tell that person they were out of the oxycontin, simply because they were too lazy to fill it! They don't know what pain they were causing this person or what kind of withdrawals they may force this person into.

I have run into problems filling my oxycontin prescription and since it can only be filled once a month, it doesn't leave me with any spare pills to get through while either my pharmacy orders them(5 business days) or I find one that carries it..which I found ONE place after calling at least 20 other pharmacies in my city..This was AFTER my pharmacy assured me they would have it in stock for me at the end of the week after I called them at the beginning of the week to make sure they had it in stock.

But right now, friend or no friend, I would say not a very good friend, YOU are the one that knows the true story here, you have the obligation to report this to her bosses and corporate.
She should NOT be in this career as she is causing harm to people. Who knows what else she is doing as you probably have only scratched on the surface, which means undoubtedly she has done this to more people.

Walgreens Corporation would NOT be pleased to hear that their pharmacists are NOT filling prescriptions that are valid and when they have the medication in stock. That is how they make their money. She is undoubtedly costing the company lots of money because she is lazy. That is NOT the place to be lazy. She is getting paid for a service not to be lazy and not perform that service. And oxycontin is NOT a cheap drug, there are no doubt huge profits in it for the company and she basically told that customer to take their business and dollars to the competition.

If you don't report her, probably no one else will and countless number of people may end up suffering..Not just you.

This is SO maddening.
Beanie

[chad]

Yeah I had a Pharmacist do the same thing to me.  They're just mad because they can't be the ones prescribing.  I can't stand a pharamacist that thinks he/she has the right to void scripts whenever they feel they are godlike.  It is nothing but a POWER TRIP.  You know what I do?  I go straight to a different Pharmacy.  What you need that stuff for, is your business, not theirs.  They just need to do their job and shut-up.

[cindi]

Thanks for your response.  You are so right.  She is not that close of a freind, we usually talk alot when I go up there and she had been very helpful to my mom but she gave her some problems also.  She is a very judgemental person as far as pain medication goes and I think, now this is my own opinion that she feels that pain can be treated by other things and if we do get scripts for narcotics god forbid....we are abusing them.  Yes, I only did scratch the surface, I can go into alot more detail but i didn't feel like sitting here typing all of that out.  My chest is really hurting and I'm couging alot and my fever just won't seem to come down.  I have seen and heard countless other things about this pharmacy (Rite Aid and CVS) not Walgreens that would really make your head spin.  Many people I know, my sister included can tell you some really nasty stuff about these pharmacies.  You were so right about the pain and withdrawals.  Simply put,,,they don't care.  My husband said for me to report her also.  She is doing more harm than good.    Take care   cindi

[Thomas02]

Walgrens horror stories abound. Same can be said for Rite Aide and the whole rotten bunch of chain pharmacies. It sometimes takes a little looking, but it's SO worth it to find a privately owned pharmacy (rare, I know) where you can form a personal relationship (based on trust) with the owner and operator of the pharmacy. You'll find that they can do a LOT of things when they don't have a big corporation watching everything they do. My pharmacist won't go so far as to give out refills I don't have, but he'll refil early (for cash) without making you beg and generally will give you advice the chain pharmacists won't bother to give. I say screw each and every chain pharmacy. Right when you're in pain or some difficult situation, such as when you have to leave on short notice on a road trip for your job, etc. those chain pharmacy bastards turn into your worst enemy. I can't condemn them strongly enough. Oh, one more thing, I've never seen senior citizens treated with such disrespect and neglect as at a chain pharmacy, Walgrens being the absolute worst. Don't ever patronize a Walgrens or a Rite Aide -- they're all Nazi's, as far as I'm concerned.

[PS >>>>Annie]

You poor darling.  Sorry to hear your still so sick.  I think patients should go straight to an attorney for this ****.  Now this is a reason to sew.  This world has become so uncaring!  It's up to us to ruffle some feathers.  Make some waves.  This sort of unjustice needs to be dealt with.  Makes me want to go back to school and earn a law degree, like yesterday!  We all have rights.  I better quit while I'm ahead. This infuriates me.
Annie

ps.....Does anyone no what the laws are regarding this?  Please let me know.

[Beanie]

oh my god, I'm seeing things!
I swear you wrote it was a Walgreens??
I just read your note and it didn't even mention the name of the pharmacy! Maybe I let my brain do a trick and Saw the W in While in the next sentence while i was reading the first sentence and thought you had said Walgreens. or maybe I'm just weird.
could be the drive-thru as the Walgreens here has a drive-thru so it brought up images of that store in my head.
oh well, sorry, but you still should do all the things I said about reporting her. She is NOT the doctor, she had NO idea why that person was filling the oxycontin. Makes me so mad when I sit here with suicidal levels of pain and to think of being treated like I was selling them or abusing them by a pharmacist, when all i am trying to do is get a somewhat normal type of life back. should i expect any less?? We do NOT live in the dark ages. these drugs are here for a reason, why is it SO hard to get them to use them for that reason?

I say Report,Report,Report, scream as loudly as you can. She needs to be taught a lesson.

Beanie

[PS >>>>Annie]

Whats the problem.  Do we have to be bleeding to death, and taxi cabbed around by an ambulance to be in pain.  This is crazy.  Who are the doctors anyway?  They should be infuriated just as we are!!!  dagnabbit!

[Thomas02]

where did you hear about L-Thyrosine rebuilding receptors? Sounds interesting.

[Francoise]

I'm taking 100 mg Oxycontin twice a day for a crushed L4 vertabra and other spinal/pelvic injuries. No matter, I continue to be afraid of this drug even though it gives me a life. Without it, my mobility would be limited indeed. The fear of it (actually of withdrawal - in the event I become somehow separated from it, say, by lack of insurance or for God knows what reason. I never said my fears connected with being on this drug were rational.) has caused me to keep a sharp eye out for ways to rapidly detox. And I'd like to share what I've found recently about a substance that seems to hold some promise...and some contoversy it seems.

You can follow this link to an article about IBOGAINE: \http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ibogaine.htm

Additionally, here is part of an aritcle that appeared, I think, in Newsweek which dealt with getting off various addictive drugs:

ONE-SHOT CURE?
One way or another, the arsenal against addiction is sure to expand. Leshner, of NIDA, estimates that 60 drugs are now under study as treatments for cocaine addiction. One of the most controversial, a botanical called ibogaine, may help alleviate a broad range of dependencies. This natural hallucinogen is illegal in the United States, but University of Miami neuropharmacologist Deborah Mash has spent five years studying it at the Healing Visions Institute for Addiction Recovery in St. Kitts. Patients take it just once, and many say it not only masks withdrawal symptoms but gives them new perspective on their lives. “It doesn’t work for everyone,” Mash says, “but for detox from opiates it’s a slam dunk.” According to Mash, cocaine users benefit, too, though less dramatically. So do alcoholics. Critics say the evidence is only anecdotal, but ibogaine is the treatment that started Colin Martinez on his current two-year rally.
Even when it works, medication is only one step toward recovery. Beating addiction requires every tool on the table—medication, counseling, social support, family support—and keeping up the fight when you’re losing. As Martinez has learned, treatment isn’t a war but a long, slow siege.

_______________________  END OF TEXT ___________________________

Apparently three or four people have died as a result of using this substance. And it's illegal in this country for reasons that aren't clear to me. It's available on St. Kitts, as the article says, and other places. It seems that there are sufficient number of deaths connected to opium use to justify taking some risks inherent in research into this substance. I've never experienced FULL withdrawal from Oxycontin, but from what little bit I HAVE experienced I can say unequivocally I'd rather BE dead than go through that kind of evil, black pit of dispair wherein time actually STOPS.

Hope this helps.

Francoise

[Brighty]

Thank you all... each and every one of you... for the intelligent and experiential replies you provided regarding post opiate depression. I was able to copy and paste this thread and e-mail it to my friend who will pass it to her nephew and his family. That alone is a wonderful gift from all of you. Even though I have had close up experience with this because my daughter attempted suicide a number of times I did not feel personally qualified to instruct anyone else. Whether I am wrong or right I would have tended to go with the AD's.

Maria, my personal tendency was to agree with you because my daugher was fortunate enough to be in a long term recovery program and all efforts were made to discover and treat underlying mood disorders,post traumatic stress and other mental health problems. She was treated with anti-depressants and mood stabilizers,etc... However she was under constant observation and lived in a mental health facility, making the monitoring of dangerous side effects much easier. I am aware that this is not the case for everyone. But this method did save her life and I would personally consider you to be totally correct and on target. It is not clear to his family if this young man is suicidal, but I agree... my daugher went to lunch with me, had a great day and was on life support that night.... very insidious to think we can always see this depression.
Frankly, I was also surprised that this well known doctor ( mentioned in this forum by various readers) would not at least acknowledge the expected depression and give some advice or rationale. I had never heard of anti-depressants refered to as mood enhancers. I guess they are but somewhow I don't see why they would be referred to in a way that they are specifically bad for addicts... the implication that addicts should consider anything that ehance mood to be a relapse trigger... this is so.. but I hardly think AD's are quite in this category. Do you agree ??

I also have a preference for Chris option with the natural substances and personally believe that the truly motivated person will find success with this type of program. But unfortunately, addicts who have just kicked and are in the depths of doom and are physically wiped out just don't seem to push themselves to this... maybe they are so used to a bad lifestyle. I agree that exercise is fantastic and has a direct effect on endorphin levels... but how do you get the depressed person to do much of anything let alone start an exercise program?? I think if more people would do this it would decrease the over all need in society for the average person to run and get AD's. I would add lots of distilled water to Chris already exceptional list. My daughter is on 5HTP, B-complex, milk thistle and Ester C now that she is recently weaned off the psychtropic meds (which did save her life.)I agree with Maria that some do need to go on these to help them survive and not relapse. The 2 biggest relapse triggers seem to be cravings and depression.

JB,Tara, Annie, ... .yes the AD's are not all the same and I have heard some horror stories and some just major drawbacks like them not working, or feeling FLAT. My girlfriend was on the Prozac... she finally figured out that the drug was not helping her make changes in her life, just that she was willing to walk through it like a zombie and not care much how bad the situation was... which validates JB's point... good ole fashioned talk therapy may be the better way depending on the severity of the depression. The zoloft worked fine for my daughter... the Paxil caused her to sleep for days on end. Your comments are in line with other stuff I have heard. I have been depressed, believe me....  I kept telling myself it was situational... I think I was right... now that our family is healing I feel more alive and happier. I realize that I should have taken something... I did.. I came here to find all of you wonderful friends.

Patrick.. I read a great book called "The Pleasure Connection" written by a married nurse couple and details how the endorphins affect our health and happiness. Does not go into addiction much but is still worth reading. Authors: Deva and James Beck RNs... Synthesis Press. It's been around about 12 years.. hope you can find it. Maybe there are better and newer books on the topic.

And to Spook... yours is the most intriguing reply... the most accurate in my humble estimation. I had not ever heard of protracted withdrawl syndrome or protracted abstinence syndrome... not in those terms anyway... but you sound like you have background, empathy and a strong sense of the reality of our human existence. I would be curious to know more of the "neurotxicity" you mention. I am not at all familiar with this term and the way you compared opioids to cannabis, mdma etc..!! That was curious to me... afterall I do not understand the term in the way you used it. I do believe that one is ever free of addiction, the re-aclimating of the brain  with lifetime euphoric recall,as we know it in opiate use, with the use of cannabis, etc.. I do not think any of the chemicals you mention pose a permanent change to the brain, albeit they do cause permanent damage in some cases. Please explain what you mean. I am interested and I know I can't be the only one !!!

Love and best wishes to all of you. Brighty

[Brighty]

I'm appalled also. To the best of my knowledge it's simply not up to the pharmacist to decide. The doctor has the legal right to write a script within his/her professional guidelines. If the pharmacist thinks for any reason there is something fishy they do reserve the right to delay the script to verify if it's authentic. In fact, I believe in some states the pharmacist is obliged to verify scripts for some scheduled substances. If the script is presented at an hour that it's impossible to verify they also reserve the right to delay till the next morning. Generally, if a person has had scripts for the same med filled there before I would hope they would be trusted. I think it may be illegal to not dispense legally scripted meds if they are in stock just because they don't feel like it... but how could you prove they had it in stock anyway ?? Sometimes the pharmacists get denials from insurance companies. Our insurance company had to pay $2000 for my husbands ER treatment when he got bitten by red ants and went into anaphylactic shock. When he went a few weeks later to the pharmacy to get his allergy shot kit filled they said it wasn't covered. He called the insurance company and they verified it... they also said the doctor had to call and show proof that he had a medical reason to get this script. Talk about horses asses  !!! I think you should report this but don't just do a phone call to the manager... find the address of the corporate offices for the pharmacy department and do it in writing ! I agree with Patrick.. find a small privately owned pharmacy...they get to know you and will treat you like a customer. I hope you get better really soon. Love, Brighty

[Ginette]

Hi Chris,
I just wanted to thank you so much for your tips.  It is pretty rare that I ever find any constructive information on this site.  I researched L-Tyrosine and it sounds like all of us that are trying to detox quietly and dignified (<---I write that while smiling)without any dreaded intervention or revealing our dreaded secret, will benefit from your tips.. especially the L-Tyrosine...  Here is some info that I found.
  What is L-Tyrosine?
L-Tyrosine is an amino acid found naturally in our bodies. Tyrosine's main purpose is to support the formation of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine. Neurotransmitters are important because they carry "messages" from one nerve cell to another and play a vital role in our muscular function. Messages sent from the brain to a muscle, for example, telling it to contract or relax are sent via neurotransmitters. A loss in these neurotransmitters can lead to physical and mental burnout and fatigue, as well as depression. L-Tyrosine accounts for as much as 90% of the production of these neurotransmitters, which are synthesized directly from this amino acid.

Why should I use Tyrosine?

The stress of everyday life can lead to burnout and depression. Scientists believe that the main cause of this depression or mental fatigue is directly related to decreased levels of dopamine, norepinephrine, and other neurotransmitters in the brain. They believe that use of Tyrosine, in addition to St. John's Wort, can enhance the half-life of these compounds and naturally relieve everyday symptoms of mental and physical burnout, which can lead to better workouts and increased productivity on an everyday basis. L-Tyrosine is believed to upgrade the production of neurotransmitters and thus stave off fatigue and mental breakdown that can occur during a hectic schedule or after an unusually difficult workout.

What research has been done on Tyrosine?

There have been a number of published studies showing the positive effects of taking L-Tyrosine. These studies have demonstrated that consuming Tyrosine enhances the production of neurotransmitters and may, in fact, alleviate certain symptoms of depression and improve alertness and focus. Also, studies performed by the military have shown that consuming a L-Tyrosine supplement may enhance cognitive performance.

What doses of Tyrosine should be taken?

There are no definitive studies showing what doses of L-Tyrosine are most effective. However, many scientists believe that taking 3gm of Tyrosine before a workout can lead to increased strength and intensity and more mental focus. Also, consuming 2-3gm of Tyrosine with a high carbohydrate meal can help prevent the sluggish feeling caused by increased levels of serotonin, which decreases alertness.

What side effects are caused by Tyrosine?

L-Tyrosine has thus far been shown to be extremely safe and effective. No known side effects have been reported.
http://www.athleticnutrition.com/Tyrosine.shtml
Cool!!! sounds like it will be very helpful.  Now if I could get the poopy problem under control I think I may be successful this time :)
Kisses to all

[Thomas02]

thanks to you both for the L-Tyrosine info. It's rare to find helping substances that aren't controlled by the med establishment -- in other words, "We either won't give it to you, or we'll make you bankrupt yourself before we do."

I'm trying very hard to get off the opiates, and to hear of something like L-Tyrosine gives one hope.

Thanks again.

[Brighty]

Thanks so much for sharing your research with us. I think I need that stuff !! I wish you all the success you are entitled to which is 100% total healing. God bless you. Brighty

[cindi]

Thanks for your input, my husband has been on me to call and report her also,  That was just total bull ****. The more I think about it the madder I get. Monday morning I will do my homework to find the corporate office and tak it from there..l  well, i am off to bed.  I have to sleep propped up on the couch everytime I lay down I cough my lungs out.  Remember, this same pharmacist would not fill another script for cough medicine.  Have a great weekend  Love cindi

[Beanie]

Yes,
you should be darn mad....especially that she did this to you with the cough syrup and are now suffering only because of her!
I would most definately report her to the corporation, be ready to tell everything about what you overheard with the car and the oxycontin, what time of day this was, what her name was, all of that. If they care at all,they won't just yell at her, they will try to catch her losing money for the company, which is what will really bother them. they will probably do some undercover prescription filling. They have their ways.

I don't know what size city you live in, but if it is sizable enough to have its own news stations, you might want to either e-mail or call their consumer/investigative department and let them know that pharmacist or pharmacists are doing this in your town. tell them what happened with the car and which store, they may want to do some undercover work of their own. To see how often they are turned away with a valid prescription. What a great headline for them. Pharmacies leaving people suffering in excruciating pain because of lazy pharmacists. They eat stuff like that up. Of course you may have to do some reminding to them of how this is affecting people when they won't fill their pain medications because they are too lazy. but guarenteed if a story like that were to come out in your town, these pharmacists aren't going to take chances like that anymore. They will be too afraid that every prescription for painkillers is an undercover investigative reporter.
All of this can be done without this pharmacist ever knowing you made a complaint. If the company starts watching her and catches her in the act, she will never ever suspect you, or if she was caught by the news people.
This is a very newsworthy story, because everyone of those news reporters have, children and parents and spouse and friends that at one point find themselves in horrible pain and to think that they may be denied their pain medication because the pharmacist is too lazy and judging them as a drug addict would make them very angry. Imagine the person that has all their teeth ripped out of their head and stops off at the pharmacy on the way home to fill the pain medicine. the novacaine is wearing off and they find out the pharmacist says they are "out" of that medicine.
Then they go to 2 more pharmacies and they are really out of that medicine. They are supposed to take this medicine before the novacaine is worn off or they won't get a handle on the pain to control it before it gets too bad. So they are forced to look around for 2 hours to find that pain medicine because of lazy,lying,judgemental pharmacists. even if they do find one to give them their medicine, but this time the pain is so bad that it is uncontrollable, as they say to take it before the pain gets bad. next they find themselves in the ER waiting room, mouth bleeding, feeling totally sick and in unbelievable pain. they must wait 3 hours to even get to lie in a bed as heart attacks and such are more critical and take priority. at this time the doctor has to give them a shot of morphine to kill the pain. They end up with a 600 dollar bill for that shot because their health insurance does'nt cover dental issues. The ER doc writes them another prescription and they have to start the process all over again. It could be someone like this that she turned away because she was lazy and assumed they would sell it for money. It could have been a number of different reasons, that isn't the pharmacists concern, they should be concerned with filling that prescription, not why they are filling, they shouldn't be the ones second guessing the doctor and deciding if you "need"that medicine.
This really bugs me, can you tell?
Think how many people you could save from suffering by reporting her, imagine how fun it would have been if you would have told a little fib and let it slip to another waiting customer (talking just loud enough so you know the pharmacist could hear you,but pretending she didn't) that you worked for this chain and were their undercover person checking to make sure pharmacists filled your prescription,accuratley,quickly,cheerfully.

aside from all of this. after she sells someone their prescription and makes the money for the store and her salary, why really does she care what you do with it?? If she is keeping this out of a true addicts hand, does she really think they are not going to be able to get anymore drugs. She may verywell turn it down to the one that will come back and rob her for it.
that's a lot scarier prospect than selling it to them. most addicts won't do this, but she might just hit on that one that would.

Beanie

[Thomas02]

I don't know whether to feel good about this or bad: After dispensing the best advice I could to countless people coping with opiate withdrawal, tonight (it's a Saturday midnight here in California as I write this) is the first night in almost 3 years that I've gone without my "maintenance drugs" Darvon and Xanax. In other words, I haven't had to face a single day or night without my dope. I guess that comes from being a junkie for 30 years, during which I dare say I've become the most skilled manipulator of MD's in the history of drug abuse. I don't take pride in this. It's just that the empirical evidence backs me up.
As often as I've sat here at the keyboard smugly trying to help others through cold-turkey weekends, I haven't had to face the experience myself in years. Well, tonight I find myself doing just that. Only I feel a little guilty because, through a combination of luck and good old-fashioned junkie cunning, I find myself sitting at the computer higher than a kite, blasting some Tom Petty through a pair of earphones, sailing along on some Soma and Phentermine I just happened to be able to put my hands on. I should be feeling horrible right now, paying my "dues" like every career junkie. Instead, I'm finding this muscle relaxant Soma and minor-league amphetamine Phentermine, together with the good tunes, to be quite a hoot.
I think of all the posts I've read from so many of you describing the agony of withdrawal, something I know well, and yet here I am "cheating" with these substitute drugs. If there was any doubt that the term "drug fiend" applied first and foremost to me compared to the wholesome folk that populate this forum, most of them relatively innocent chronic pain sufferers drawn to opiates through no fault of their own, this night should lay them to rest.
Even though, as I near my fifties, and I grow increasingly weary of the drug acquisition grind and the toll these chemicals take on my physical and mental health, not to mention the expense, I cannot avoid the simple truth that I passionately love taking drugs and getting high like nothing else in my life. If I had led a life of poverty and pain, abused and neglected by my family, dealt one bad card after another, it might be easier for me to understand and accept.
I guess my question is, what do you do about something you love with your heart and soul, regardless of what that love has cost you in virtually all facets of your life? Fall head over heals in love with a woman, and then try to tell yourself it's wrong and that it will bring only sorrow and that you should stop immediately. I can't speak for women, but as a man, I know that when you fall in love, you fall in love, and there's not a thing you can do about it. No matter how wrong, you can't stop thinking about her or lusting for her company. Every man reading this knows what I'm talking about. Well, it seems that in my case, regardless of the bad experiences and the abundant wisdom telling me my love is wrong and that it will ultimately destroy me, I love drugs as much now as I did 30 years ago.
I remember my first rehab (a feat in itself). It was my first exposure to the 12-step group therapy concept. While I detoxed on heavy doses of Valium from a mega-Vicodin habit, the rehab staff "compelled" me to attend these "meetings." The nurses and councilors referred to these "meetings" as if they were common knowledge. I knew nothing about AA or NA or Bill W. or any of it. I alienated the entire group the first time I opened my mouth because I asked the group this very same question. How do you stop loving something or someone? You can work steps, get sponsors, make amends, etc., but what if, after all of that, your love for drugs is stronger than ever? No one had an answer, not even the councilor, and I was not "compelled" to attend further meetings.
Am I twisted in my love, like some *********? Is this my failure as a human being or simply my god-ordained doom?
At the same time, I think about people I've known that did and seemingly felt all the right things at the right times, and yet died before their time, never knowing a moment of pure, unadulterated ecstasy. I can look back on my life and recall many, many moments where I experienced the outrageous joy of being a sentient part of this universe. All in all, I've had a pretty good time. Is this wrong?
None of us knows if we're to live another 50 years or 5 minutes. Was Joseph Campbell wrong to say "follow your bliss"? Rightly or wrongly, that is what I believe I have done. So, I close this long post not knowing exactly how to feel about myself tonight. However, I do know that life feels good, Tom Petty still rocks, and that the night air smells as sweet as ever. I will leave it to others to judge. All I know is that I'm alive and what a blast it is!

[Brighty]

My dearest friend, Tom..... yours is a difficult post to answer without getting philosophical. It's YOUR journey and if you can find NO reason to get clean and you do not violate any personal code of conduct you have for yourself, then maybe you have answered your own question. Afterall, most of us, addicts or not do not experience your bliss unless we have some sort of contact with the Divine. Maybe the reason you seek to get clean is for freedom... to not be a slave any longer... that has been the quest of slaves, serfs and servants even in the most honored households of the kindest, wealthiest and best masters...human beings who will leave the mansion and care of their owner to step penniless into a world of poverty and uncertainly in order to be free. Love and prayers to you my fellow traveller. Love, Brighty

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Your post is a masterpiece!  The only thing that I can say is that you and I are much the same.  I'm sitting here paralysed by the fact that someone else out there knows what is going on inside my own head.  J.B.

[cindi]

Wow,  I read your post 4 times I like JB am astounded by the fact that YOU have put MY thoughts in writing.  Through all of my struggles with my addiction I have often asked myself why if I am not hurting anyone is it so important to be clean?  I figured because it was what everybody wanted me to do.  I have never had the courage to be completely honest like you did and ever admit to the fact that I love the feeling.  My love for the drugs has never left.  Thank you once again for sharing your honesty.  I'll bet you many people feel as we do.   Take care and God Bless cindi

[Thomas02]

Now I know why they call you Brighty! You sum yourself up in a recent post as, what was it? "just a little, middle aged mom"? Your attempt at modesty makes me laugh. You're obviously much more than that, Brighty. Thank you for the stunning servant-to-master analogy. You've given me a priceless insight. I believe I will be pondering its implications for a long time to come. Peace to you and your daughter.

[Brighty]

As long as you are in pain I hope you are able to get your medicine to improve the quality of your life. Thank you for commenting about ibogaine which I have been investigating for a year now. If you go to www.ibogaine.org you will learn much more than the Newsweek article could tell you. There is a link also for you to join a list. You will meet the people who are promoting and offering treatments and also lots of people who are activists as well as those who have tried ibogaine for addiction and other reasons. There are some kooks too. I subscribe to the list. There are more treatments available than Dr. Mash... in fact she is aligned with the US Govt. and the University of Miami.... and her cost is outrageous!! Just what poor addicts don't need.. to be locked out. There are also clinics in Europe and they are costly and are compiling data... and there are scores of other affordable treatment options. It's supposed to be a long, difficult experience but one that interrupts addiction for 2 reasons... it has a profound effect on serotinin and takes a person into their early life experiences and allows them to view their issues.... basically getting in touch with the underlying causes of addiction, the addict can finally see what they are doing and why. It should be followed with a recovery plan. I have no idea why it's a schedule 1 substance... it' s potential for abuse is practically zero.. .it's just not something people do for fun. I am jaded... I don't think our government wants addiction to end... it's a mighty income producing industry... so I doubt if Ibogaine will become legal let alone mainstream. The deaths are minimal... and there is little or no evidence the ibogaine was the cause, rather it may be that there were other medical problems... you also have to sign a waiver when your doctor takes out the gallbladder and basically what can be more death oriented than shooting heroin every day... ??? These are simply my opinions Francoise and I think it was great that you brought this topic to the board. Love, Brighty

[Thomas02]

I think many on this forum share the same feelings, as well as the pressure to disavow them. The real value of this forum, I believe, is the anonymity it offers. Where else could I have made that statement and escaped crucifixion? Of course, we haven't heard from Spook yet. Thanks for your responses. I have seen myself in your posts many times as well.

[PS >>>>Annie]

.....I came here several times today, and tried to post.  My family wouldn't give me much time to myself.  After reading your post, I couldn't release it from my mind.  You are really in a personal battle.  I wish there was something we could do.  I guess I will have to utilize the tools that are before me: the keyboard, and "the book."  I am no angel; myself, and wouldn't want sound like I'm preaching,but scripture has gotten my husband and I through many tuff battles.  I havent mentioned this before, but my husband's drug of choice was pot.  Some may think this is not very addictive, but I beg to differ.  I've seen this clean-cut, mild mannered, humble person do almost any-thing or go anywhere to have that temporary escape.  He started using when he was 12.  When he's under pressure, I get nervous because I know this may be the time he slips.  He doesnt want to do it, and feels terrible that after all these yrs. he still turns to this.  It's been 4 months now, and when he feels weak, he seeks inner strength from scripture (the armor), and he prays.  This is what he attributes the will to overcome to.  As you once told me, "wisdom is the Key."  In closing this is the verse I've chosen for you: WISDOM'S WAYS ARE PLEASANT WAYS, AND ALL ITS PATHS LEAD TO PEACE.  WISDOM IS A TREE OF LIFE FOR THOSE WHO TAKE FIRM HOLD OF IT.  THOSE WHO CLING TO IT ARE BLESSED.  {Proverbs 3:17-18}

[PS >>>>Annie]

Ps........Forgot to mention, he is at peace w/ himself and feels like there is nothing he can't do when he overcomes his drug battle (not to say that he wont slip again, cause he has done that many times).  It is a victory that empowers him to succeed in other areas of his life.  He's headed places.

[Brighty]

Thank you for a keeper from the Good Book... it meant alot to me this morning as I face another day of my own personal challenges... I don't read the Bible much and this was a gift for me to start my day with. And thank you for a realistic view of cannabis "addiction" which I often hear is psychological... but sometimes I wonder if it may be a bit of both. Spook had posted here that opiates were not neurotoxic like other drugs such as cannabis, MDMA etc.. I had never heard this  before and was somewhat queried since I don't know what that means in terms of how they affect a person either during use or in the long term... and the looming question in my mind, that the one that is not neurotoxic( opiates) is the only one that is most addictive... that is, it changes the climate of the brain permanently with a euphoric recall that is often the cause of relapse. I don't think they say this about the other drugs. Maybe someone can explain this to me... I replied to spook to explain but somehow I doubt if he will reply. Maybe a good reply would also shed light on why your husband is affected by the cannabis... it may have more to do with chemistry than psychology. Yours is not the only story I have heard about cannabis "addiction". I remember in all my daughter's rehabs (9 of them !) that she and others would sometimes chuckle that someone was there for "pot"...like it was not a "real" drug. But after awhile she learned that a heck of alot of people are struggling with it by the fact that they were seeking help. Gotta go now ! Love, Brighty

[Dee]

Maybe, this is exactly what 'Coward' wanted/needed to hear you say,complete honesty from the heart. and maybe, he/she knows and feels exactly as you do...

[PS >>>>Annie]

I have no doubt in my mind that it is addictive.  It's really funny ....I've been posting here for over a month and never thought about this little problem my husband has.  You see, I guess I didnt even look at it as an "addictive problem."  
I have never seen a person so drawn to something.  We move a lot since we've been  married, and he always finds a neighbor or someone that has access to it.  He really struggles w/ this.  You would have to know him personally to see where I'm coming from.  He loves me and our children and would do anything for us, but there came a time when he chose that over us.  I put up w/ it for a long time, cause I didnt see the harm till some time later.......when it started effecting job status, safety, etc, etc.  There came a point in time when he would have to rush home every thirty minutes or sooo (he is self. emp.) to get his little fix.  I was driving around in his vehicle w/ the children and he had it stashed inside.  When I found this out, I said enough is enough.  I gave him an ultimatum, and guess what he chose?? Yep, the dope.  He's been doing well so far. It takes a lot more than just human strength.  Will keep you posted.

[Beanie]

Hi Cindi,
Was just curious to find out if you decided to report that pharmacist(if you can call her that) today? can you tell this just burns me up!!
Beanie

[spook]

Neurotoxic(Damages or destroys Neurons),Our entire Central nervous system(CNS)"BRAIN" is made up of Neurons,interconnected by tracts of Neurons and Masses(areas)of Neurons in specific regions for example the Ventral Tegmental Area (VTA)And areas are interconnected by axons of Neurons.It is Dopaminergic Neurons within the VTA area that are primarily responsible for Opioid Euphoria and reward as opposed to analgesia(for example).
    Even after 60 years of large daily doses of Morphine,upon Autopsy(Natural death of patient),NO doctor,scientist,researcher,etc,etc,has EVER been able to show Neuron Death or Damage due to That Opioid,whereas with MDMA-(XTC),Cannabis,Methylamphetamine-(speed) and alcohol damage and destruction of Neurons ie our BRAIN is evident in as little a one year or less MDMA!!,in this context,I repeat Opioids are not Neurotoxic.
It is merely the Protracted Abstinence Syndrome coupled with our Society and Personalities that make Opioids so ADDICTIVE,in fact given a suitable personality,society and Complete Absinence for at least 6 Months Opioids would be as easily forgotten as a Lover met on a Holliday Abroard,but in this Immoral Psychologically PAINFULL Society,Opioids APPEAR extremely ADDICTIVE,for example,I possess such an enlighened personality free of the encumbraces of EGO and live in a society that has in general a sense of Morality and recently used Heroin IV daily for 3 months then stopped about 6 weeks ago(ABRUPTLY),the physical symptoms where BAD and the Psychological Symptoms were practically Non-existant and on top of that after the acute syndrome that lasted about 10 days,I had no Craving to get "HIGH" again,as LIfe itself is the best High Ever,to achieve such a state of mind has taken 20 years of introspection and learning about oneself,I have been blessed with a life in which I can pursue this Self AWARENESS and Enlightenment,ie no Pain(physical)and No pain Psychological,What "I"have acheived is the freedom from Psychological(emotional)pain,If it was gods will and I suffered a physical Trauma and NEEDED Opioids,then I am sure A Moral Society would Provide.Enough for now, bye.......

[spook]

Neurotoxic(Damages or destroys Neurons),Our entire Central nervous system(CNS)"BRAIN" is made up of Neurons,interconnected by tracts of Neurons and Masses(areas)of Neurons in specific regions for example the Ventral Tegmental Area (VTA)And areas are interconnected by axons of Neurons.It is Dopaminergic Neurons within the VTA area that are primarily responsible for Opioid Euphoria and reward as opposed to analgesia(for example).
    Even after 60 years of large daily doses of Morphine,upon Autopsy(Natural death of patient),NO doctor,scientist,researcher,etc,etc,has EVER been able to show Neuron Death or Damage due to That Opioid,whereas with MDMA-(XTC),Cannabis,Methylamphetamine-(speed) and alcohol damage and destruction of Neurons ie our BRAIN is evident in as little a one year or less MDMA!!,in this context,I repeat Opioids are not Neurotoxic.
It is merely the Protracted Abstinence Syndrome coupled with our Society and Personalities that make Opioids so ADDICTIVE,in fact given a suitable personality,society and Complete Absinence for at least 6 Months Opioids would be as easily forgotten as a Lover met on a Holiday Abroard,but in this Immoral Psychologically PAINFULL Society,Opioids APPEAR extremely ADDICTIVE,for example,I possess such an enlighened personality free of the encumbraces of EGO and live in a society that has in general a sense of Morality and recently used Heroin IV daily for 3 months then stopped about 6 weeks ago(ABRUPTLY),the physical symptoms where BAD and the Psychological Symptoms were practically Non-existant and on top of that after the acute syndrome that lasted about 10 days,I had no Craving to get "HIGH" again,as LIfe itself is the best High Ever,to achieve such a state of mind has taken 20 years of introspection and learning about oneself,I have been blessed with a life in which I can pursue this Self AWARENESS and Enlightenment,ie no Pain(physical)and No pain Psychological,What "I"have acheived is the freedom from Psychological(emotional)pain,If it was gods will and I suffered a physical Trauma and NEEDED Opioids,then I am sure A Moral Society would Provide.Enough for now, bye.......

[spook]

Neurotoxic(Damages or destroys Neurons),Our entire Central nervous system(CNS)"BRAIN" is made up of Neurons,interconnected by tracts of Neurons and Masses(areas)of Neurons in specific regions for example the Ventral Tegmental Area (VTA)And areas are interconnected by axons of Neurons.It is Dopaminergic Neurons within the VTA area that are primarily responsible for Opioid Euphoria and reward as opposed to analgesia(for example).
    Even after 60 years of large daily doses of Morphine,upon Autopsy(Natural death of patient),NO doctor,scientist,researcher,etc,etc,has EVER been able to show Neuron Death or Damage due to That Opioid,whereas with MDMA-(XTC),Cannabis,Methylamphetamine-(speed) and alcohol damage and destruction of Neurons ie our BRAIN is evident in as little a one year or less MDMA!!,in this context,I repeat Opioids are not Neurotoxic.
It is merely the Protracted Abstinence Syndrome coupled with our Society and Personalities that make Opioids so ADDICTIVE,in fact given a suitable personality,society and Complete Absinence for at least 6 Months Opioids would be as easily forgotten as a Lover met on a Holiday Abroard,but in this Immoral Psychologically PAINFULL Society,Opioids APPEAR extremely ADDICTIVE,for example,I possess such an enlighened personality free of the encumbraces of EGO and live in a society that has in general a sense of Morality and recently used Heroin IV daily for 3 months then stopped about 6 weeks ago(ABRUPTLY),the physical symptoms where BAD and the Psychological Symptoms were practically Non-existant and on top of that after the acute syndrome that lasted about 10 days,I had no Craving to get "HIGH" again,as LIfe itself is the best High Ever,to achieve such a state of mind has taken 20 years of introspection and learning about oneself,I have been blessed with a life in which I can pursue this Self AWARENESS and Enlightenment,ie no Pain(physical)and No pain Psychological,What "I"have acheived is the freedom from Psychological(emotional)pain,If it was gods will and I suffered a physical Trauma and NEEDED Opioids,then I am sure A Moral Society should/would Provide.Enough for now, bye.......

[PS >>>>Annie]

Sorry to inform you, but this is not a "moral" society, and God gives us our own free will.  We are not robots.  Doctors are all to human and fear sanctions by our so called Moral Government.  Just for your information.......My trauma has not held me down much.......Doctors cant even explain the dynamic comeback I have made, but nevertheless........I am Human, and therefor do suffer!
Care to comment!

[spook]

Was that Dare to comment(freudian slip)
It is my Knowledge of god that gives me my strength.Until I had contact with "GOD" I felt like a bunch of molecules.The greater ones Consciousness is,the closer to god they are drawn and the smaller is their EGO.I do not like Cults that masquerade as religions ie Christianity,Buddism,Heroin,etc,I think a person is very lucky to be graced by gods presence.And I only know of believers,not actual knowers like me.I have morals and I have definately sinned,but our western societies do not have a face to admit it,is not the sum greater than the parts,even if we all had morals our society will still persist,people like me are born and die but society is always there and nobody whether Jesus nor Hitler will change the faceless techno-ilogical mask of OUR immoral inhuman society.
I think humans have de-evolved and had greater powers during the Egyptian times.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Cult you say.  You know there are many gods, but there is only one true God.  It infuriates me, that you could put the name of Jesus in the same sentence/category as Hitler.  My man, you are more confused than you realize.  The author of confusion...hum..Would that be Satan???
Christianity?? Here something for you to ponder on:..When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ> (IIThessalonians 1:7-8)
My God gives me peace that is beyond understanding permeates my daily living and I no longer fear death.  Although evil surrounds us in many forms, in the world, and although we may fall victim to suffering and losses on earth, nothing can be lost from our eternal inheritance, because the resurrected jesus has been crowned with all authority and glory....This is to all whom believe.
I don't mean to use this space as a platform for my spiritual beliefs, but we all come forth within our own personalities........AND THIS IS ME.  So forgive me, if I have offended my fellow forum friends, but I had no choice in standing up for what I believe.  We all have our advice and "ways" to deal w/ addiction and pain... (whether it be herbal remedies, counseling etc.)this is my way.

[spook]

I also believe in Jesus,its the religions that go along with it that concerns me,like who`s correct the Mormons,7`th day adventist,Catholics,Moses said eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth,and Jesus covenent all that came before him,he says if someone hits you ,offer them the other cheek,well here`s my other cheek,hit it as hard as you like.
And I only used Hitler and Jesus in the same sentence because they are opposites,to exemplify how such powerfully good and evil men have really changed things little.Maybe I want to change the world,or maybe I should start taking drugs again so I do not care anymore?.I do not want to be selfish,I feel like I try to help people,but in order to help they must go through this angry stage and they unleash it on me,well I am open to pleasure and pain,I do not think ones medication should lead them to a Psychiatrist who will in turn lead them back to themselves,when it was that which they seeked to escape from in the first place.

[cindi]

Hi,  Yes, I got even more po'd after I read your reply and then the one from Dee above. I am going to call the coorporate office and report her.  I just have to find time to do it.  It is really hard to do it from work.  I may have my husband go ahead and say he overheard the remark.  He has more time than I do.    take care  cin

[PS >>>>Annie]

I may have misinterpreted your message.  Believe it or not, I to, do not believe in organized religion.  It always seems to put the phocus on man's needs, desires, and wants.  This is why my religion is my Bible, and my theocracy.  I have the privelage of attending a study by an archeologist, theologian, and great teacher.  We are taught verse by verse throughout the year.  This leaves little room for human intentions to be pressed upon the people.  There is no need for a building fund, or a collection plate.  
I am glad that you do recognize the deity of Christ.  I am living proof that He is a powerful and great God.  If I came off a little harsh, do forgive me.  I believe the reason (as you stated) Jesus has not seemed to help society much,is because the devil has dominion over the world.  We have to reach (free will) out to him.  He wants us to choose......
As for your stand against opiates, and its use for addiction and pain,  I believe you have to walk in someones shoes....to be able to stand as firmly as you do.
When I first started posting here..(see prior postings) I was upset because so many people had ready access to pain medication, when I couldnt get anything for almost 8 yrs. I asked you somewhere below, how you felt on this issue...Who should recieve, and who shouldn't.  Yes its true, opiates are very addictive, but why should people suffer, and why shouldnt someone who is addicted be treated for that addiction.  I do realize this is a very sticky situation...but I don't think the gov't has the right to pressure a physician one way or the other.  What ever happend to doctor/patient confidentiality.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

You two are the most thought provoking people! I love what you are doing here.  After reading your posts a few times, I agree with both of you. Life is strange, isn't it?  J.B.

[cindi]

Hi Annie, I have been reading these posts, and my mind is just totally numb right now,  I don't want to keep repeating myself, but today is a bad day, My personal struggles seem overwhelming for some reason,  Since my mom's death I unfortunately have felt my faith waver a bit, I'm torn, I want so badly to regain what I have lost but I am so angry and I don't know who I am angry with...I struggle with my addiction, God has brought me through it many times over, But tonight I feel so weak, My mom's birthday is tomorrow, She has only been gone for 2 months.  I need to find some peace..Do ya have any scriptures for me?  Thanks you Cindi,  Ps.  If anyone would, can you please say a prayer for me?  thanks

[Brighty]

Thank you for an excellent explanation for my questions ! Well, no doubt personalities play a big part... since I personally know of people who became abstinent on their own and never picked up again, I know you must be correct. I know it couldn't simply be will power so figured it must be either a personality type or that they somehow called out for enlightenment and it was provided to them. (And it is if we ask !!) This protracted abstinence syndrome makes sense. I had often wondered how I could get my daughter to a remote village and take up rug weaving.... once removed from this toxic society I have no doubt that addicts would "forget" their euphoric recall. Now Spook.... how is this done by remaining in this materialistic, self worshiping society?? Isn't that what the 12 steps are for .... to find a path of spiritual development in the midst of this chaos ? I have learned that Bill W is not the bonafide author since they were taken from a rule of monastic order he came upon... he added to, re-wrote and made them relevant for his AA group. And how did you reach your present state of inner peace?Some people are easily inclined to seek the Divine, others have to fall on their face and suffer and suddenly they are looking for God.... others have to be led by a ring in the nose and told to work steps till they get it !! Since you have separated yourself from believers by stating that you are a Knower... well how do you know who knows and who believes ? You can speculate but I think you can only know for yourself. Isn't that the truth of your being ? You cannot separate yourself from anyone...we are all connected. I KNOW this but cannot make you know it. I do wish I could say that I am free of the encumbrances of the EGO... honestly, Spook, how do you know you are ? Well, then, how did you reach this state? I am also dying to know where you live ? just curious... I am certain there are societies and cultures far less toxic than this one. Oh... BTW... I accept your information about opoids being non neurotoxic.... but... was there really an autopsy on a human who consumed large quantities of morphine for 60 years and died a natural death ?????? Who was this ??? Why didn't he OD ?? Where did he get the stuff and why did he use it ??? Your posts are fascinating and bring a whole new dimension to this topic. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

LOL !!!! You are a gentleman and a diplomat !! I believe you to be among the strongest truth seekers I have known... and you have never done a commentary !! A lesson for me to be sure! Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Cindy... goodmorning... today is Ash Wednesday... I will especially remember you in prayer that you are strengthened in faith... it is your faith that will sustain you. I do not quote scripture very well but in thinking of your mother's passing there is a memorable one from Wisdom... 'the souls of the just are in the hands of God, and no torment shall touch them.' I hope that is comfort to you.

Remember that you are never alone. Thank you for giving so much to all of us here...especially those who are suffering. Your wisdom and kindness are gifts to all of us.

Annie... God bless you also. I was awed at your personal profession of faith.

Love, Brighty

[Gina]

Sorry to hear you are having a rough time of it. I can't imagine life without my mother as we are very close and talk daily on the phone. Being in constant pain doesn't help our outlook to be very positive either. I will be more than happy to say a prayer for you cause I truly believe God hears us and answers our prayers. I have always turned to him when at my low times and am sorry to say I am guilty of not thanking him during my good times. It helps so much to come to a forum like this where people truly care for others and try to help them anyway possible. Take care and you will be in my prayers.

[FlowerChild11601]

Cindi I have already said a prayer for you and your mother.  May God Bless you and keep you.  I am so sorry to hear about your mother and that you are having a hard time.  I lost my father 7 years ago and am still not over it so I understand you completely.  

I want to say to Spook and Annie that I agree and your posts are definately facinating to me.  Spook, I want to know how you became a "knower" - I love what you said about EGO!  

I want to be able to abstain and just live happily in this world!  God Bless you all my fellow forum friends, Maryanne

PS  Tom, how are you?  Patrick?

[Brighty]

Oh !!! So that's why we hadn't heard from you... I am so confused... Tom or Patrick, Maryann or Flowerchild.... I did not realize that was YOU !! Gee, I hope I have the right person. How have you been doing since the visit to Dr. G ? Thanks for sharing his method... I was able to paste and send your post to the friends whose nephew was using and he went and got the same treatment you got. Thank you for the help. Give us an update. Love, Brighty

[PS >>>>Annie]

I'm so glad you asked those questions.  They are all the things, I wanted to know, but couldnt get pass the frustration to put them down on paper --so to speak.  I guess, rather than ask questions.......I started w/ my own explanations...of what is in my heart.  Well, Brighty ...I only hope he responds because I would like to know too.
CINDI, I can't imagine what your going through.  I've only lost grandparents, but still have my Mom.  I tried to put myself in your shoes.  I would think you are still very deep in the grieving process.  Do you have a New American Standard Bible or NIV from The King James.  Something that is put into language that YOU can understand.  The Proverbs are a great place to start.  When your in Two or more people gather in his name (pray)...HE is present..Just remember that.  
I feel really bad giving spiritual advice here.  I have to take my own advice.  If you knew me personally, you wouldn't think I was so spiritual...but it seems to come to the fore- front during times like this.
Cindi.....here it is: a person may plan his own journey, but the Lord directs his steps...A wise person's heart controls his speech and what he says helps others learn...There is a way that seems right to a person, but eventually it ends in death...The dice are thrown, but the Lord determines every outcome.  Prov.16:9,23,25,33
My peace comes from knowing he is in charge.  Isn't that something.  I will keep looking, and will send you another. I'm on the way to get some blood drawn....My surgury is next week.  I hope this helps, I had to post in a hurry..  KIT

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Most of what I practice comes from the AA Big Book.  It's the perfect book for imperfect people.  Like the Holy Bible, it has all the answers when we need them the most.

One of my favorite subjects is prayer.  It works as long as you don't ask God for personal favors.  Sit quietly and humbly ask God for direction on ways to be of service to others.  Faith without work is dead.  In helping fellow sufferers we gain the strength we need to go on in life.  The answers will come in God's time not ours.  J.B.

[PS >>>>Annie]

In God's time, not ours.  I think this will help Cindi.  When looking back, I've often asked why.  The answer does seem to come along eventually.  Sometimes, I see it all so clear and other times I dont.  JB...that's it!  In God's own time not ours.  We live in the information age.  Where answers are at our finger tips, but we have to be patient in the spirit world....there is much to learn along the way....and life does not happen at the stroke of a finger.  As Pat stated, "knowledge is the key."..........Where has he been anyway......I miss is input!!

[cindi]

Thank you for all of your support,prayers and encouragment,  The scriptures have stuck in my mind.  I don't even know any of you and yet I feel as if I've known you for a long time.  Someone told me this forum is nothing but a bunch of people whining and nit picking.  I found that to be soooo not true.  You are the most wonderful thoughtful group of people and I feel totally comfortable here,  I read that today is ash Wednesday in the post above  My mom died on the Holiest day of the year and now her birthday is also on a holy day.I won't question this but accept that fact that there is a reason for it.  Off to the dr. tomorrow  my cough is much worse.  This time she will give me some good cough medicine,  No more whimpy dimetane   Thanks again everyone and I love you all   cindi

[cindi]

I did not mention you in my post above, and for that I apologize.  Your support, kind words, words of wisdom and advice has helped out more than you will ever know,  Especially when you shared with me about your daughter. The struggles you are facing with your wife ect.  and yet you can still be a great source of serenity.  Thank you and take care my friend....again  my love to all of you   cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

If your up to it, let us know how your doctors visit went, and dare I say......Pharmacy??  I really do hope you feel better soon!

[spook]

At the age of 10 I was kicked out of Religious classes because,I dared to ask if you cannot see,here,touch,taste or smell GOD how do you know GOD exists?,His reply was "you must have faith"
At age of 12 whilst suffering from  High temperature induced delirium had to be held down by my grand parents(don`t think they had heard of antipyretics,like Panadol),all I can remember is saying it is because I do not believe in GOD.
Between the ages of 14 and 32 I had taken LSD at least one thousand times and knew much about myself and the universe.
I have had emotional problems mostly related to a Huge libido and early (15 years old)participation/exposure to Orgies,and subsequent moral issues that resulted in trauma(not going into details here).
I had alway used Opioids but only recreationaly,I eventually became depressed,and wanted a break so I went on methadone,I was on a large dose for 2 years and had to get off it because I had no emotions and my consciousness was diminished,I stopped cold turkey and every problem I had ever experienced emotionally in my life came flooding back to me,I had no way out,no friends, girlfriend,my parents where NO HELP, I was so sick also living on my own, I could not even move my body the pain was so bad,I felt alone,so alone,I was going to kill myself,but before I did so,I thought I may ask If their is a GOD and to expose yourself to me.At that point a Thought was placed in my head,like someone was saying something but no sound just their thought.
The thought was "you are lucky to have known me,I am here",at that point I felt nolonger alone,my pain was gone(even though I was/should have been real sick alone from the Methadone withdrawals I felt touched and privileged,"enlightened"far more so than any LSD experience.
So I know of god in this way,Some sort of superconsciousness above and beyond but intersecting with our own and capable of making your pain dissapear.
If I had heard the thought I would have suspected Schizophrenia,if I had had a vision,then I would renounce it a hallucination,No such garbage,GOD presented GOD to me in the only possible way such an Atheistic person like me could accept,without questioning one own sanity,and I have felt the guiding light and presense of GOD(whatever GOD is)ever since.In this sense I purport to have made contact and KNOW of GOD.

[spook]

The person in question was a Physician Morphine addict who used 120mg per day for 60 years,he remained Productive and healthy(pleasant personality as well) and continued to practice Medicine his entire life until he died of natural causes,his body was left for scientific research and Scientists have subjected it to very close scutiny.every cell was inspected!well neary I heard.
Opioids pose no problems if used short term,and none if used long term,the problems occur when people escalate their dose and cannot get a steady supply.
A MD Neurologist Scientist I know who once worked in England but now live here in Western AUSTRALIA participated in an experiment where they prescibed as much Heroin as the patient(drug addict) wanted.On average the addict got bored with it after 7 years and stopped comming back for more.
The experiment being unwittingly done these days is to see what happens if you are denied a continual and suitable supply of Opioid,the results seem to indicate that you can keep a person in perpetual misery,by giving them not quite enough and periodically denying them supply completely.But then again little kids behave the same way if you take a toy they are playing with from them.Lets say it is a box of matches and the child cries and carries on,but you know they will forget the pain and pleasure and find a more .....?toy,some say we never grow up,only our toys get bigger.
I say live and learn and one day this planet will be a better place for all of GODS children.You do not have to get burnt,or do you?, to know you should not play with fire.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Was that Dr. Hopkins, the physician who founded the Johns Hopkins hospital?  Years ago I read about him being addicted to morphine for 60 years.  He died in his eighties from old age!  Inspite of his addiction, he was able to do marvelous things in those sixty years.  J.B.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Spook, I feel very inclined to reply to you.  I am so sorry about what you had to endure.  I can only think of the physical pain sometime, but often forget what mental torture some people have experienced in their lives, and what a miraculous come-back you have made.  This only proves that your worth saving.  There is probably no other earthly reason (as I've, often been told myself) for you to be w/ us.  Now I see why YOU are inclined to reply as you do.  You have taken your experiences and in " your way," tried to nock some sense into us.  Spook, take your experience and do the greater good.  The only peace you can truly have is the close relationship w/ our one true God.  This is acquired by dwelling in the scriptures daily.....This is the complete armor.  
Some of us have come to know God as we do by  unscrupulous people, and really ignorant people, I must say, but never the less, We know him.
I was raised Catholic, and can remember being spanked (at 5) in front of my whole class.  The day after I was married, my husband and I joined a Fundamental Baptist Church.  We were taught to wear certain clothes, act a certain way, and all this did was initiate gossip among the members.  Look, I could go on and on.  It's a journey.  We have to find our way.  These ordeals never caused me to be angry w/ God.  I know the way now.
In closing I leave you w/ this:  Everyone expected Jesus to come, but w/ fancy clothes, and jewels....in all glory, but he was brought here like you and I.  He was humble and poor.  And look what was done to him.  Tortured and beaten like trash.  He walked among us for a purpose.  Let's not lose sight of that.
FYI: Is the Biblical Record Reliable?  Regardless of what the Bible tells us about Jesus, Its claims conerning Him are valid only if the biblical record is reliable.  Can the New Testament be trusted?  Is it accurate?  What evidence is there that is divine revelation?...Although there exists an undeniable record of fulfilled prophecy along w/ strong testimony from archaeology, the foremost evidence that the Bible came from God is the testimony of Jesus, the one who arose from the dead and appeared to more than 500 disciples thereafter.  Jesus repeatedly endorsed the Old Testment Scriptures as "inspired by the spirit," as coming "out of the mouth of God," and as words which "God said."  (cc. My teacher, N.K.)
Annie

[PS >>>>Annie]

Just making sure.

[Brighty]

Simpy, my friend, Thank You... if I had better words I would use them. Love to you and Marty. She is starting chemo soon ?? I will remember her in prayer... what date does she start and for how long ? Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Thank your for sharing your humanity with us. And thank you even more for sharing your personal enlightment... your awsome knowledge of the Divine as He chose to reveal himself to you... clearing all the thoughts of self and flesh for that moment ( at your request) so you could see He was there all the time, so that you could know Him.

Hmmm.. was it John Hopkins ( as JB just mentioned ?)... Well it's going to be a positive revelation to opiate addicts that this is not harmful... well... I hope  you define it better... would you say that a maintenance and nothing more dose is what the physician was doing ? Supplying the need that was created by the initial uses of the opiate ? How could an oxy or other pharmaceutical pill addict accomplish this lifetime maintenance without harm ? Are there some opiates that have no harmful effects compared to others that are compounded for certain uses ? What about heroin ?? It's a totally debilitating drug for the most part. Like a rat in a maze they go for the drug at the cost of losing interest in life, emotions, food, sex, relationships... all the things that make us human.... they become derelict.... how did this doctor manage to maintain and stay functional ?? Is it the personality of the person ? My daughter on heroin was LOST.... she was not only non functional and suicidal, she was out of control... almost nuts... and a stranger to all the emotions..... if I had died she would have simply felt bad mentally but probably not grieved... my point is that it seems hard to accomplish what you illustrate about the doctor who was functional and healthy... yet most addicts here would agree that they would like a "daily maintenance" something or other to stay satisfied and normal functioning. What would you suggest ?? Let me ask you about the slavery issue... that one addicted they  HAVE to have this seems somewhat unnatural and I think that impels people to want to quit even if they are doing well... and the way the drug laws are... it is definitely slavery for profit... the most immoral of immoralities to enslave another human being.  Thanks for your time. Love, Brighty

[spook]

It is not just the Personality,most importantly it is the light that illuminates it, our soul,it is now called `consciousness`.That allows one to avoid Addiction to drugs.
I was once prescibed Morphine for one year,under special Health authority license,by a Doctor as an alternative to methadone maintenance(I got contacts)I used 3X 30mg IV per day,I always got a nice high and nodded in a dreamy state about 20 mins later and the effect would subside over the next 6 hrs approx.Each day I would repeat the process and always get the same result,I was not maintaining,I was getting high and enjoying myself immensley,When the health DEPT told my Doctor they would not prescribe indefinately,I was relieved,I was given 6 weeks to taper and had no problem,actually my Soul was awakening again and I was enjoying detox and then I am back to myself again, happy again.I think the problem a lot of people have is learning the diffence between "happiness"and "Pleasure"to me they are ultimately mutually exclusive.You asked once how I came to be Egoless and enlightened and I achieved this using many tools,most importantly is knowledge of "self".By avoiding pleasure Dopamine accumulates in your brain,as the levels saturate your consciousness expands and you gain insight into the inner machinery of your mind,you can trace back your entire life to birth(free repressed memories) and analyse to seek the truth,what is programmed into you by Parents,Society,etc and what is really you,you elliminate Neurosis by understanding these misconceptions.The ego is the pleasure seeker and drains our Dopamine and ultimately makes one unhappy.Happyness is being at one with yourself,the universe and god.Pleasure is just something that happens from time to time as we live our lives,we are taught to seek pleasure from a very early age,Why did you think this world was full of unhappy people trying to escape it by distracting themselves with pleasure.I have dedicated my life to the understanding of the mind and put my theories into practice,I believe others may also benefit from such knowledge.I have to share it because I feel This planet is suffering from greed and ignorance and religion has not worked,I am offering a Modern Scientific Pathway to "a" God,but you must first get the consciousness to experience the phenomenom.I think Jesus talked about the blind leading the blind.I can give you the eyes to see,but the rest is up to you ,their is no magic cures.
And definately no guarantees.lots of Peace,love and happiness,Minimize the sex drugs and rock`n`roll.

[spook]

I cannot remember the article other than those details and that the Doctor was very well known and respected by the community.It is actually quite well known in Scientific circles that Opioids,particulary Opiates like Morphine,Heroin,oxycodone,hydrocodone are not damaging to the body or mind.Yes they cause terrible suffering in the wrong hands.
Brighty Diamorph(Heroin) is commonly used in England as a pain killer for the terminally ill in Chronic Pain,as I have said before I used it daily for 3 months and yes it is more addicting than morphine and the desire for the Rush from injection can become compulsive,but apart from that its very similar to the above mentioned opiates.I have not used heroin for about 2 months now and never think about it.
Opioids effect neurons involved in our primary instincts:food and sex(reproduction).
During my Learning phase I had gone without sex for 10 years(at one point in time) and often did not eat for 2-3 days,this makes you strong.when one eats all manor of food and sleeps with anybody who comes along they become weak,opioids also make you weak,but from adversity can come much strength.
Straught people are harder to help because they do not recognize their addiction,for some it is work,others evangelism,sex,food,traveling,etc.
These things can destroy us and our planet far quicker than Opioids,who knows maybe one day sex may be illegal unless married and junk food a Schedule 1 substance.and Morphine sold at the supermarket.

[Gloria]

Brighty,  Opiate addiction/dependence, or any addiction/dependence for that matter, is so poorly understood.  Why is it that some individuals display intermittent abuse, but never escalate their intake to the point of dependence; and others, from the moment they are exposed to a known addictive substance, they are hooked?  How could it be possible for some individuals to stop their addiction "cold turkey," and others to flounder in the "sea of addiction" forever?  Wow, if I only had the answer.  The Vietnam soldiers were probably the largest group of individuals that were opiate addicted and studied.  What the results demonstrated was that most had little or no prior experience with opiates and found themselves in a situation of high stress and readily available drugs.  Under these circumstances, as many as one-half tried opiates and, although many became PHYSICALLY addicted, those who had not misused drugs before Vietnam returned to their drug-free status once back in their home communities.
Regarding opiates not being neurotoxic, I have not found any evidence to the contrary.  What we do know about opiate abusers though, is that at least 25% are likely to die within 10-20 years of active abuse, with death resulting from suicide, homicide, accidents, and infectious diseases.  The mortality rate has increased and is expected to continue to increase due to the epidemic of AIDS and Hep C among the IV drug users of opiates.  So, yes, opiates are not neurotoxic, but persistent opiate use remains dangerous and potentially deadly.  If opiates were supplied to opiate-dependent individuals without them having to resort to drastic measures to obtain their "fix," would the same statistics play out?  Brighty, I'm not sure.  There would probably be less deaths associated with homicide and infectious diseases, but I am uncertain about suicide and accidents.  Also, as tolerance increased, would we reach a point that we could not provide enough of the individual's requirement of the opiate--then what?  I wished I had the answers because I know how miserable my life was while in active addiction and I had unlimited access to my drug of choice.  Having unlimited access did not spare me from suffering the misery and chaos of addiction.  I never lost interest in my desire to take the drug after ten years of use and all the consequences associated from its use/misuse.  I am just grateful that at this moment, I am not using and I am able to experience the human condition--life with all its ups and downs.  As Dr. Gould once wrote, "sometimes just little storms, while at other times gale force winds."  Best wishes to you and your family.  Maria  
    

[PS >>>>Annie]

Just what I feared.  I knew it.  My friend, im afraid we do not serve the same God.  I have some very inlightend info on Mr. Darwin, but when I tried posting it to Brighty....I kept getting error messages.  I guess my post are too long.  Well maybe tomorrow or over the weekend I'll post it to you.  I believe (although you have very definate opinions), there is information that I can offer to change your opinion.  I think my other post was correct in saying you fall somewhere between Pantheism, Karma, and Relativism.  This is all very deceptive beliefs.  You are far to wise to be realed in by these New age concepts.  Give me some time.....I will reply on these issues.  I fear I may loose my day job, although, I am self employed...lol  Let me give the forum a rest for a while from all of this.
I will pray for you.
Annie

[cindi]

ell My Dr. Visit went well,  We discussed the problem the other day and she is pretty well pissed off herself.  She did give me a script for the Vicodin Tuss and 2 inhalers, some medication called Singulair for asthma type conditions.  We also discussed what happened at the pharmacy re: the oxycontin the other day.  Her reply was:  They (the pharmacist) has absolutely no right to play God.  How does she know this person was not in excruciating pain from cancer?  How dare her with hold that person's meds.  And how dare she go against the Prescribing Physician.  She came right and and said that Pharmacists are a big pain in the ass to deal with.  She went on to tell me what run ins she has had with the pharmacies and how on several occasions she or her husband (who is also a physician) has noticed that some of his medication has been shorted.  The good thing about my doc is she has in the past been a chronic pain patient herself and told me flat out that a few years back she would take any pain med she could get her hands on because of the pain.  All her x-rays and MRI came back negative so of course her doc basically said she needed antidepressants.   So, she is sympathetic to chronic pain but she also said the DEA has their claws in these docs and are so far up their asses it's pathetic.  I think I finally found me a good doc.  Have only been seeing her for a few months but she is really good and down to earth. Once again  thanks for the prayers and thoughts.  Love to all   cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

I wasnt having a very good day till I read your Post.  It's always pleasant to hear from a friendly forum buddy.  I'm so glad you found that doctor.  It's good that you feel comfortable enough to talk to her the way you did.  This whole pharmacy thing has got me bugged.  
Since im here, I have a question for you.  My surgury is next week and my doctor did not order a pre-op for me.  Is this usual.
For knee surgury a year ago they drew 3 tubes of blood. This time the lab only took one.  I'm just worried about this, because this is a far more in depth surgury and will take longer I'm sure.  My ortho is out of town for the week.  So I scheduled an apptmt. w/ my pcp anyway for a pre-op (if thats what its called).  I don't even know if he'll do it w/o an order from the ortho.  Do you know anything about this.  Do you have any idea how long these surguries last... I know you have some experience in this area.  My husband is about to put me in a straight jacket..lol....I'm just a little uneasy about it.  Yeah, and I'm the one giving the spiritual advice here.  But I am all to human, I dont deny.
Thanks,
Annie

[PS >>>>Annie]

What's your take on Spook? I just got finished going through the thread.  You seem very supportive of all the information he spews....whether it be Of a personal nature, cosmos related, new age related, and everything else that falls in the realm of possibilities....you do understand this is what he's doing here, and I'm just a bit curious.....Is it ok for him to w/ the slight of hand, sleekly insert w/ in a line or two....his beliefs, but yet I'm the one the comment got made to.  
No offense, but after reading the post........I just couldnt help myself.  I think he's using this forum for more than helping, but nevertheless I will not give up.  I just want to say one thing........Thank God for Maria!
And Tom....I think I know what happend.

[cindi]

First of all, Surgeries are always scary but really, you are in good hands.  I don't recall exactly what procedure you are having done but it is ortho right?  It is kind of difficutl to speculate on the length of the surgery  That depends on things like what they run into ex.  How much they have to repair, remove  Etc.  As far as the routine pre-op labs, it depends on the facility,  where I used to work we had our own set of pre-op testing ex.. Routine urine, a slew of blood work, hemoglobin, hematocrit, Red and white blood cell count and clotting time, and if you were over a certain age  35 I believe, we automatically ordered a chest x-ray and EKG.  Are you going to another place to have the surgery than the previous one  Maybe that's why you had less blood drawn.  My one big rule of thumb that I always "preached" to my patients,  If you are in doubt, having any concerns or questions Ask your Doctor.  Please,  Some people are very intimidated by the doctors and don't want to bother her.  I say Bother him,  You are paying him to do a job, Your doctor is employed by you and you are the boss.  He makes alot of money and these are the things you are paying him for right?  If you do not get satisfactory answers then ask again then you can raise some noise.  Please know you will be fine and now i can say a prayer for you.  Just remember the post op is very critical.  Do everything you are told to do  and do now skimp on the pain meds.  you are entitled to them.  following the dr. orders and taking the pain medication BEFORE the pain gets to bad will help the recovery process immensly.  Good luck  I hope I have been some help  if ya have any questions you can e-mail me ***@****     Later tater   cindi

[Gloria]

Cindi's advice was all accurate and good.  I always tell my patients that I am honored that they have chosen me to provide their medical care.  It sounds like your current PCP is compassionate and caring.  Trust me, in this day of HMO's, capitated plans, government reduction in healthcare spending, etc., your average internist/family practitioner/pediatrician, are not wealthy.  I could go on ad infinitum, but this is a forum about addiction and recovery, not about who's getting rich in healthcare.  As for the difficulties with pharmacists some people on this forum have encountered, you are not alone.  I have had pharmacists refuse to fill prescriptions I have written.  I believe the suggestions given regarding contacting your prescribing physician, the pharmacy corporate office, etc., are all great ways to get this problem resolved.  Thank you for your kind words in an earlier comment.  Best wishes.  Maria

[Gloria]

Cindi, I got confused and posted to Annie that she was lucky to have found a compassionate and caring physician, but in reviewing my comment, I realized that it was you that had the "good doctor's visit."  Sometimes it is hard to keep up with everyone and what is going on with them.  Sorry for the confusion.  Best wishes to you both.  Maria

[Brighty]

Annie,

I responded to your concerns about the spiritual topics in a post somewhere else on this board. It's today's date so I know you should find it. I hope you will see that I was in no way chastizing you. I felt perhaps it was ME that should not state my view of evolution since this was a medical board. I am not sure why you took that personally except that it does seem you want to discuss this a bit more than what I would think is appropriate. They do delete all sorts of stuff here for space and I don't think you will get too far... that's all I meant. Please find that post for a better understanding.

I think Spook is more conversant in an area that we don't delve into here since we are lay people. Since he is scientifically versed he offers information that may not seem credible to us... but since we are in the stone age as far as compassionate and effective treatment of addiction I do like to hear new and hopeful information  in this area. As Maria said... information on the net is not easily credentialed so we must be careful.. that does not mean that it is always wrong.. it simply means hear it and keep seeking. Addiciton treatment & use of AD's is often a hit or miss proposition in the hands of the best doctors so we need to consider that other options may be just as viable.

I must say as respectfully as I can that you are stretching your observations regarding my so called support of Spooks beliefs... and you state a wide range of them... that is a bit of a challenge... I do not have a clue what most of his beliefs are so I am actually unable to have an opinion. Spook shared what has been a lifestyle of sin and decadance crowned by godlessness... atheism... and professes that he has had a personal conversion... a knowledge of God who revealed Himself to a sinner lost in the emptiness of a self centered and self destructing life. This is the type of story that we hear in NA and AA ... sounds healing and hopeful to me. I think it was a fine testimony myself. Do you feel I did something wrong to support him and thank him for sharing that ??

You tried to send me lengthy and enlightening information on Darwin ????????? Why ?????? It's not a subject I am particularly interested in... I just believe that we are in God's image and likeness... since God is a spiritual being that would mean that he has no body.... so I believe my spititual self is in his image and likeness... thus it does not matter to me if our physical forms evolved from monkeys or microscopic organisms. Pwhew !!!!! Annie.. Love to you...I appreciate all your concern. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Thank you for a great post. It has brought me to the ground floor... regardless of biochemistry and neurons, it's the reality of addiction that we deal with... suicide, depression, contracted diseases, disintegration of family and relationships and spiritual emptiness. Your experience of unlimited access is more valuable than a theory that unlimited supply would lessen the demand or the desire.... in fact, rats given unlimited supply choose it over anything else... till they die of starvation and exhaustion. Some group at a university in Frankfurt, Germany are now working with rats on the "Pleasure-reward" theory. They put the opiate in the drinking water of the rats and supposedly found that once the addictive substance got associated with a life sustaining activity ( drinking water) it lost it's pleasure connection. Supposedly the rats did not drink water any more than they normally would ... unlike the ones who go crazy in the maze that provides the drug as a reward. Don't worry, Maria, I'm not even going to consider that one !!! I spent a good 5 minutes in a belly laugh !! But there is something to it and I think that's part of the equation. Your information about the war vets was also fascinating....and very revealing. I know what you meant in another thread on commitment here on the forum... and you do have a professional commitment as well as personal... but it is great to hear from you and it's very balancing !! Hope you "talk" from time to time. Love, Brighty

[cindi]

Yes, I had the good Dr. visit.  I have many friends and family that are Physicians but for me to find one that suits me personally with all of my addiction problems and now that I am 40  (tongue in cheek) my health problems , I am very lucky  she understands me and treats me as an individual and bases my care around my individuality, something i don't see alot.  Does that make sense.  I have nothing against docs, except when they lack compassion, and are so closed minded about everything,  and the ones who think NSAIDS are the cure for it all   LOL    take care  cindi

[Frankinscense]

Addiction is a symptom to an underlying symptom. To what is what a mental health professional will have to determine.
                                                                  I see opiate addicts released from a NINE month prison stay. ALL have beat the depression that accompanies opiate withdrawals. This is certainly a good way to measure the depression that follows opiate addiction!
Dan...

[spook]

Annie I think words and our interpretation of them emotionally and intellectualy gets in the way when it comes to explaining our beliefs and feelings.The old Testament is ALMOST in total agreement with what I believe.
Brighty/Annie everything I know of these spiritual/metaphysical Systems of belief I mention have come from within my own mind,Not from being taught or exposed to a religion or reading a book,I was once an artist(Oil painting,poetry,Guitar and eventually became a Philosophical Visionary?,it was not my choice I get these creative urges and they are in the form of thoughts.
I read a book about Krsna Consciousness once and it also agreed almost perfectly with "My THEORIES",except that they believe the Heart is the location or "Seat" of Consciousness(they also refer to Consciousness as the soul or spirit) "Particle", BUT my experiments have practically proven, for me(not to me) anyway that my soul is located centrally to the Ventral Tegmental Area of the Mesencphalon.
Maybe I seek to promote my beliefs because they worked for me and Annie is seeking to do the same as me to also help others,it does not sound as if she needs confirmation via congruance.But my system can be scientifically tested and could bring the most stoutly Atheist in touch with a more Enlightened "true" self-ie-(consciousness).
Why does one seek to help others in need anyway?I keep feeling the presence of "GOD"???when I do.Actually if you read MY book you will see that I do not use the word GOD I have a list of definitions and refer to God as "SIE"(superconscious-intellectual- entity).And Ego as "False Self".

[Brighty]

I expect that you know  I have not questioned your spiritual beliefs nor have I sought to have you justify or qualify them... thus you do not need to include my name in your post. I think that was Annie who was somewhat unsettled as your beliefs are dissimilar to her own. You have knowledge of God, personal conversion, and want to help others. I know lots of people with widely diverse spiritual views very different than my own. I am fascinated and interested but I do not care to convert anyone nor argue with anyone. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Book ?? What book ? Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

Glad you re-surfaced !! Good point !! Seems that TIME is a great healer ! Also just as insidious is the other side of this coin... that after months of freedom from both the opiate and the depression, a significant number go right out and begin using again. Also after 9 months of smoke free pregnancy, I have known women ask for a cigarette as soon as they get home from the hospital !!! These are the things about addiction that we need to find a permanent cure for... I don't know if it's out there or ever will be. It goes beyond choice to me... something in the brain seems altered forever. Love, Brighty

[Thomas02]

Clarify one thing for me: Your quote:
"The greater ones Consciousness is,the closer to god they are drawn and the smaller is their
    EGO.I do not like Cults that masquerade as religions ie Christianity,Buddism,Heroin,etc"

Are you saying that Christianity, Buddism and Heroin are on equal status as cults?

Please explain that one to me.

[PS >>>>Annie]

I apologize.  You are absolutely right.  I do agree the spriritual topics did get out of hand.  I dont know what got in to me.  I am intrigued and fascinated by people.  I have this overwhelming desire to reach out.  I was spriritualy, & physicaly drained yesterday and my husband forbid me to come back to the computer.  Well...here I am again.  I'm having surgury next week, and my husband thinks I should be focused on that.  
I will Keep my spiritual points to a minimum, and will first evalutate them........to make sure they are aimed at helping.  The Bible does state that we should not argue over its content.  You simply can accept or decline it.  I guess, what I was trying to do was to provide evidence and proof, therefore leading to belief...which leads to strength.....and a full recovery.

Please have a nice weekend....How's that little one doing????
Love, annie

Ps.....I greatly appreciate your honesty!

[PS >>>>Annie]

Your a nightingale! (sp) lol
Thank you for taking the time out to answer my questions...And w/ all your problems.  By the way....is the medicine helping you?
I hope you feel better soon.  How is the family....

Well, I went to my pcp this morning, and asked him about the pre-op.....he was somewhat puzzled.  He firmly believed that I should have the pre-op.  Needless to say....I was sent for a chest xray.....and several blood test...he ran the gamut.  Waiting on the results.

We'll chat soon!
Annie

[PS >>>>Annie]

Hey!  Well you must be ok.  

Said I would stay off the topic as much as I can restrain myself...but that's a good question.  I'm bursting w/ questions.........I'll stay off the subject though.  ):

[cindi]

Hi Annie,  You are welcome,  Anytime you need anything I am here.  No the medicine is not helping,  Of course it has only been a day.  The cough medicine is not even helping,  I suppose when the other meds really kick in full force and the inflammation is reduced then the coughing will stop.  I did find that eating ice cubes help...the coughing.  So, There I was at 3 am chewing ice cubes.  I set the cup of ice on the table next to my couch  (my new bed)  and later I went to grab it and Ice and ice water all over my head and everywhere else.  Well, of course I was wide awake by then,  (cold showers really do work LOL)  I am really into reading these posts between spook and everyone.  Right at this moment where my head is at I don't feel like I have much of anyting to contribute, but time heals all wounds or at least eases the pain.  Ok  gotta run  my son is being a pain in the butt.     Love ya  cindi

[Brighty]

Annie.. no need to apologize...in fact please accept my apologies for intervening between you and Spook. It was not appropriate and for that I am sorry. Love, Brighty

[semccat]

Opinion on spook?
spooky.
I can't remember reading a larger load of self serving **** anywhere.
translation? ME ME ME - read how great I am.
Only the largest EGO claims not to have one...........

[spook]

I agree with your INTERPRETATION 100%,I just wish Your IQ was adequate to understand my Paradox.
Good emotive interpration though,now what exactly is YOUR definition of ego?I missed that one.(freudian,Biochemical,etc)
I hope you have not been seeing those psychiatrists that try to teach you to be selfish to be happy.
You did not stiffle me for a moment,you are the one who seeks to insult and misjudge me to the rationalization of your own inadequacies.
And those are mainly repressed neurosis manifesting as anger.
good luck with your ANGER management therapy,I hope you recover soon
Love Luke (SPOOK)

[spook]

Religion is a word,that implies: Monastic and god worship.If one pronounces themselves a "Monk",they do not have to have god or monastic reponsibilties,is their no place for future religions or can new ones evolve?.I think Heroin Monks are  quite able to be fitted into the criteria of Religious,as monks do not have to identify with any ACCEPTED Religion or god and MANY do believe in god.
The word "Cult" is emotively misconstrued(by society)and possibly I should not have not used it without proper qualification,Here are the qualifications;
CULT:, n System of religious worship;devotion,homage,to a person or thing.
You see the contradiction immediately in that a Cult is a system nongod worship yet the Word religion(has god) is used in its definition.
If somebody found some sort of powerful THING that had all the atributes of GOD,maybe they do not care if it is the one and only TRUE GOD as all currently established Religions are currently arguing and in some cases Killing each other over(Religious Wars)maybe they should be free to investigate this "Thing" more.Brighty:I do have some ego left,and when lots of pleasurable things happy to me(compliments ,sex, etc)  it gets bigger and I become more unconscious and tolerant to the pleasure and others pain,eventually The pleasure cannot be sustained and the ego shrinks and I become more conscious and empathetic of others around me.
The Human EGO is a neuronal structure that depletes Dopamine from more important areas of the brain.You can learn to keep it small even while recieving admiration.
I hope The meek will inherit the earth.

[spook]

And who do you serve "SEMCCAT"?are you master or servent(desire or satiation),not everybody reacts in jealous "RAGE",Their are forums for people with mental problems like yours ,have a look at forums under top of main page.Below are other intelligent open minded peoples respondes:see their reaction and compare to your own.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Comment By: J.B. to Spook and Annie on Tuesday, February 27, 2001

You two are the most thought provoking people! I love what you are doing here. After reading your posts a few times, I agree with both of you. Life is strange, isn't it? J.B.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

This is just the way I'm feeling right at this moment and has nothing to do with this forum.  I just want to say, "LIFE SUCKS!"
Can anyone out there either agree or disagree with "my" belief at this time?  You bet!  J.B.

[Brighty]

Hi JB... well there are bad days to be sure! And bad time periods that stretch into forever it seems.... but you have told me more than once that our life is a gift so I know you have strong spirituality that will sustain you. Peace. Brighty

[Brighty]

Tnak you Luke (which is a more human identity and very nice name). I do appreciate your thoughts on this very beautiful Sunday morning. Just a quick note though.... you addressed me and Patrick in the same post and I don't think I had sent you a post that would require your particular reply. It seems that Patrick may have asked you the questions for your reply. But all the same I graciously accept that you sent it with good intentions. I particularly liked the information that the Ego is a neuronal structure. Yes.... the meek will inherit the earth...I do not think I will see it in  my earthly lifetime but rather in the hereafter. Love, Brighty

[cindi]

Today, right at this very moment,  Yes I have to agree LIFE SUCKS.  Then I read what Brighty has to say  Her name fits her. We have bad days and times that seems to run into forever...today that forever seems to be just that Forever.  As I head over today to my mom's house to pack up all of her life and memories and put them away as if they never existed.   IT IS KILLING ME...I HAVE NEVER FELT THIS KIND OF PAIN IN ALL OF MY 40 YEARS... EVER. I look at my husband and 2 kids  they are he reason I need to go on.  So, JB your post is Ironic this morning and Brighty, your words of wisdom, thank you    love to all cindi

[spook]

Life is not fair.

[spook]

If I could take your pain and free you of it I would.
Thank God you have not taken a huge amount of drugs to block your feelings.
I know you loved your mother,but it is gods will that we die at some point,please try to find some peace or meaning in it all.
Your life had forever changed,to lose ones mother is inevitable it is natures way and you are a mother yourself,I hope you made peace with her before she passed away.I don`t know what else to say,it hurts to much.
                          Luke

[cindi]

Thank you for your kind words.  No, I have not taken any drugs cover my pain, all though I have wanted to.  My mom knew of my struggle with addiction and was afraid to leave me for that very reason.  She feared for me.  This, she had told me and other people. Besides, I don't think any amount of chemicals can cover how bad I feel.  I did make peace with my mom.  I just can't believe this has even happened, I always believed or wanted to believe my mom was immortal.  She seemed to be anyway.  Well, I spent a few hours over there today, That was all I could do.  My sister will be coming up in April to help me some more.  I need to go and rest my head, it is spinning.   Again, thank you and Ps. I don't think you are spooky at all.    Love to all cindi

[Brighty]

I cannot imagine what this feels like to you. I remember seeing my daughter hooked up to a ventilator and them telling me they did not know if she would make it, if she would breath on her own again, and if she did they could not be sure if she would be normal. This was the 7th of the suicide/ODs. Just those memories alone make me sure I am not ready to deal with death. My mother was there for me and although she was suffering for her granddaughter she had to be strong and support me, her broken child. In her eighties now I am terrified of losing her. They say that you feel like an orphan when you lose a parent, no matter how old you are. I'm sure this is true. And like your mother I am afraid that something will happen to me and my daughter will crumble... she has terrible fear to lose me although I am healthy... this is because she knows how hard I fought to keep her alive in this addiction. So I can relate to your mom wanting to be there to be sure you are OK. I believe that as women and mothers we all share soemthing that is hard to put into words. I also believe that you will speak to her in your dreams and she will give you courage and comfort. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

You are a kind hearted man. Love, Brighty

[Thomas02]

You mention your book in several posts. If it's half as interesting as your posts, I would love to get my hands on a copy. Is it commercially published and available in the US? I don't mind paying for it. Of course, if you want to give me a taste of it in PDF format, you can send the files to:

***@****

Please don't think I'm trying to do you out of your rightful author's compensation (I earn my living as a technical writer for the computer industry, so I appreciate the importance of royalties), but it sounds like a book that's going to be hard to find over here, if at all.

Since I am presently focused on recovery from thirty years of rx opiate use, perhaps there are excerpts I might find more useful than other sections. You sound like an academic, so I expect much of your book might not mean much to a layman such as myself.

If it's too much trouble, I understand. You've already contributed a lot through your posts on this forum and I deeply appreciate your information on L-Tyrosine.

Peace to you, spook.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Gee whiz! I can't believe I missed this!.... a day late and a dollar short.  I can't believe I missed these post.  Just read them.  In the words of my boy Rob Thomas/Matchbox 20..."It's time to come home, " Spook.
I said I wasn't going to go there again, but just can't help it....I didn't come on much this past weekend, but everyone seemed to be posting on spirituality.  
First, you mentioned the heroin munks....Let me be very frank w/ you about all of this: the consciousness, heroin, LSD, drug induced meditation etc etc.....Your dabbling in the Supernatural World.  Your opening up one of the hidden senses.  I never, and I mean never heard you say anything about Lucifer/satan....Do you know that he could actually be your god.  Do you think he exist.  Look, I'm sorry yall........I just can't help it.  I know I'm gonna end up being the whipping boy here, or should I say girl..... Yall just let me say this above.....and I will try to restrain myself.
Luke.....Your name comes from the Bible....and so does mine, but I can not reveal it here on the forum due to anonymity.
If I didn't give a care.....I wouldn't waste my time.
Annie

Ps.....I know people who went on Lsd trips and claimed they were seeing God. Did you know that Satan often appears as an angel of light.  Spook, Beware!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I was hallucinating one night and could see the whole universe as a living and growing thing and all that.  God spoke to me and told me that everything was going to be all right because he would always be there for me.  I asked Him to let me see His face and He did so.  What I saw was me looking back at myself!  The point of this is that we were all created in His image.  God is simply the good in all of us. J.B.

[PS >>>>Annie]

How are yall doing.  Stupid question, Huh.  Glad to hear from you.  My husband went on LSD trips when he was a kid.  Talk about messing w/ brain chemistry.  Took him years to get over the episodes.  He was deeply troubled.  I only did it once, just as an experiment, to understand what my husband went through.  My soul was troubled for days.  Everyone speaks of the enlightened experience....I can't say the same.  I saw straight through people.  Was very scary.  If I can help anyone in this situation I will.  I don't believe people actually know what they are doing here.  I have a lot of resources on this topic.  If anyone wants to see a good video......Get Hell bells from your local christian video store.  Very good.
Musicians will even testify to the fact, they become someone other than themselves.  They are not who they seem on stage.  I come from a long line of family musicians.  This is why I am intrigued by all of this.

Love to you and your wife JB.
Annie

[FlowerChild11601]

Spook, I just read your reply to me (I haven't been on the forum for several days)  I want to say that I am very sorry to read what you've been through and am glad to have come to "know" you here.  I must say that while I was not an atheist (grew up Catholic) - I found it hard to really understand or believe in God.  I did not deny him, I just couldn't figure the whole thing out and was thinking, "What if I die and nothing happens?  How do people KNOW there is a God? Jesus?"  For some reason recently I have come to believe that there really is.  I just want to be closer to HIM.  You have really enlightened me with your posts.  I find them to be facinating.  I speak with God almost every day (don't get a direct answer) but still I speak to him.  I was having SO MUCH anxiety about my life which was causing insomnia and needless worrying.  One night, I lay in bed and just said, "God, I know you will guide me and I trust you.  I know that you will help me help myself and provide for me.  I know this and do not need to worry" and I am not joking, since that night, my anxiety has almost disappeared!  And things have been going my way.  People are agreeing, and things are getting approved (at work, my new place to live), everything.  I hope you are well Spook and look forward to reading more posts from you!  Take care friend, Maryanne

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

It works, it really does.  And you have benefited from it.  I just wanted to let you know that I know.  J.B.

[PS >>>>Annie]

I know your post was addressed to Spook, but I couldn't help but respond to you...even after great hesitation.  I said I would refrain from lengthy doctrinal postings.  All I want to tell you is that you are on the right track.  Keep praying and talking to God...in the name of jesus (the mediator).  Ask him for enlightenment and understanding.....you will be amazed at what you will find. Tell him to send the Holy spirit...this will help you understand.  This is what I told my best friend before she died......She was not so sure either, but when the moment was upon her, she was at great peace.  If it's any consolation, I was raised Catholic.  What a journey it has been.  I appreciate you candid honesty.  I wish you peace and great wisdom.  You deserve it.  Remember...when life get's to be to much; cast your burdens on Him.  He cares, and so do I.

Where is Spook anyway........starting to miss the old boy???

Love ya,
Annie

[marque]

Hi, Im Marque,  Im new to the forum. Been reading about this depression thing.Ive been clean from Vicodin for about 7 1/2 mos now...My Doc has me on Zoloff 50 mgs a day and Deprecote. This med dont seem  to help my dep. much at all I guess. I suppose the only way is to stop taking it and see if Im  even worse. I have never been thru anything like this before. I used Vico's Es for about 3 yrs and started as little as 1 or 2 day and went up to about 8/or 9 a day last july before detox. My question is like so many others out here. 7 1/2 mos is a long time to be in Depression and having bouts of anxiety. Wonder how long this Protracted Abinence Syndrome lasts.....When I dream I still remember how I was before all the Vicos and this low depress feelings.............thanks, Marque

[cindi]

I just had a chance to read your posts re: God/Jesus and praying
I was raised in a church, taught about "religion" and after getting clean excepted God inot my life,  I have one problem now, since my mom died i have been questioning the same questions Maryann asked Is there God, how do I know?  I am not comfortable with this.  I used to believe that when we die we go to heaven, float around up there happy and painfree,  Now I find this sooooooo hard to believe.  Is mom up there looking down on me?  Is she upset that I am so torn up by her death?  She would be very sad to see how I am feeling?  I picked up at book today at the daycare where i work (it is in a church) for some reason it jumped out a me today, call When Christ comes.  It talks about life after death and other things I am questioning.  I did go into the church for a few days in a row, I prayed my heart out.  I just want you to know that everthing you say makes so much sense, if I could just put your words into action, thank you    Love to all cindi

[cindi]

Hey, there woman,  I thought Rob Thomas was my man  LOL    cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

How I feel for you.  Sounds like you and your mother had a good relatioinship.  All I can say is, she is at peace and none of us will know that kind of peace here, but we get closer to it when we get closer to God.  That journey never ends.  We are separated from him.  We will always fail, and never "be" perfect.  This is why God made that unbelievable (notice The word unbelievable) Sacrifice.  His son.  Read John 3:16.  So simple yet so many do not understand or believe.  You see it is a gift.  I could go on and on, but my time is very limited right now.  I wish I had the time to get into this w/ you.  To offer you some peace of mind.  Just look into the eyes of your beautiful children......They are also a gift from God.  The kingdom of heaven is for such (the children).  Sit w/ them and love them....read to them.....cuddle them.  Soon you will realize your reason for being here.  They need you, and you need them.  They are so ready, willing and able to offer love.  You need that so much right now.  Your efforts will be your reward in life and where your children are concerned.  Don't dwell on your mistakes....Rem.  There is no one that does not sin...no not one.  Some people are just good at hiding it.  God see's all.
He knows the number of hairs on your head.  Please be well, I will return.  I will be thinking of you.  
Love,
annie
Ps.....I emailed you.  Hope you got it.....and yes I do like Rob Thomas music.  He sings about life. lol

It was by no mistake that the book "jumped out" at you.  Happend many times in my life.

[PS >>>>Annie]

She needs a response from someone w/ more experience w/ her situation.  I have to go now.

[cindi]

i don't have alot of experience with depression, once I cam off of heavy duty opiates I was not depressed.  For a time my doc thought I was and put me on zoloft but the feelings i was having were normal human emotions.  If you were depressed before you started taking vicodin and you are depressed again while off of them maybe you should talk with your doc about this.  Maybe he can change you to something else or increase your zoloft. Sure the Vics made you feel euphoric, now you have to deal with life on life's terms, without them, Seriously, I would talk to the Dr. about this depression but again, I don't know much about this protracted abstinence syndrome I really never experienced it.   Sorry I could not have been of more help to you.  take care  good luck  cindi

[spook]

Hi, I do not believe that hell,satan nor the devil exists,I think they are Religious constructs to serve a purpose.I am pretty certain that we all share a part of GODS consciousness,but do not compose its entirety,I do not understand the STRUCTURE of GOD.
Regarding EGO and LSD, below is a quote I think explains the relationship.
-----------------------------------------------------------------"The LSD revelation is the clear perspective. The LSD panic is the
terror that ego is lost forever. The LSD ecstasy is the joyful
discovery that ego, with its pitiful shams and strivings, is only a
fraction of my identity."
-Timothy Leary
-----------------------------------------------------------------
As I have said before ,I call "ego" "False self"in my book.(250 pages and still not finished)ie published yet.
Many of my experiences with LSD were so frightening YET so enlightening.I believe LSD can cause severe psychological disturbance and its therapeutic use for "consciousness expansion" should be done only by experienced people in appropriate settings.(I do not think Jimi Hendrix was experienced enough)
I started with (30micrograms)and it took many years(approx 10) before I could handle larger doses(400micrograms)to me it was a learning journey,and what I was learning seemed to oppose a lot I had come to believe as a "Normal" person,it changed my life forever and I believe for the better.If I had not completed the LSD journey I would have remained confused,each time I took it ,the next one seemed to start where the previous one was finishing(you can only learn so much and so fast)I really was LEARNING and changing and being a very complex organism-(HUMAN), I had a lot to learn.I took LSD until the last 3 experiences were the same,apparently It could teach me only so much,and the rest was up to me.I love Jesus,but it has been 2000 years and this world is in urgent need of a new paradigm of existence,it is being destroyed and so are our souls,I only seek to find were WE all went wrong and one possible way of making life on this planet more meaningful than just a struggle for survival(even if its the survival of own ego,that we are tricked into fighting for).
I asked the forbidden question(who am "I") and it took 37 years to get an answer and in answering it, lost everything I held dear to me.Maybe I am the one who is lost,maybe I am wrong,maybe life has no meaning and I have no identity,no personality.I do not think so,something that FEELS so right cannot be SO wrong.
I do not think the World is ready for a lot of what I propose yet,and the changes will take place slowly,but to cure the world WE must first cure ourselves.
What I am/was? trying to work out is the exact nature of our disease,you know the human condition.  

[spook]

I am flattered that you would like to read my book,however it is not yet published,I started working on it about 7 years ago,it is about 250 pages in length and growing. I am working on it still,I am trying to rewrite/explain concepts in plain english,but some words are only understandable/available in scientific/transcendental terminology and I want it written concurrently in both languages.
My book will be free,when finally finished it will be available to anybody that is interested in reading about Life,God,Politics and the Universe.
I have only touched on some of its messages here,for example it attempts to explain the creation of the Universe and exactly what is this thing we experience as "Life",it examines the Neurochemistry behind Human behaviour and how Politics and OUR western societies interact with those systems and visa versa.
One will need a tertiary understanding of Physics,Neurology,Pharmacology and Psychology at the moment to understand just the words in it,let alone make sense of the complex interweaving and synergism of concepts between the sciences involved.
It is a lot like "Paul Davies" book "God and the new Physics"except it contains a LOT more explanations based upon Neurology,Psychology,Psychiatry,Pharmacology,biochemistry and Philosophy.
           Luke Edward

[spook]

Immediate symptoms of withdrawal: restlessness, drug craving, sweating, extreme anxiety, depression, irritability, dysphoria, fever, chills, violent retching and vomiting, increased respiratory rate (panting), cramping, insomnia, explosive diarrhea, and intense aches and pains....all not considered to be lifethreatening.
Magnitude of acute withdrawal symptoms depends on: dose of opioid, frequency of previous drug administration, and duration of drug dependence.
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Protracted abstinence syndrome: begins when acute phase of opioid withdrawal ends and persists up to 6 mnths: depression(Will be unique for every person,some angry ,some sad,etc,etc), abnormal responses to stressful situations(increased needs,emotional,etc), drug hunger, decreased self-esteem(feel unpopular), anxiety, and other psychological disturbances.
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Recurrence or expression and "amplification" of underlying personality problems that drug use may have masked should be expected, diagnosed, and treated appropriately.

Believe me you will feel much better `soon`,you are sick of suffering,keep a calender as your sense of times slows,a week feels like a year,give it 3 to 6 months and you will thank god for your precious life back.
                                   Regards Luke

[cindi]

Yeah, just what spook said,  yeah, that's what I meant....Love to all cindi

[Brighty]

Thank you... that was one of the best descriptions of opiate withdrawl and all it's related effects, complete with expected time frames, that I have ever read... very concise and with the strong chord of encouragement to reassure the worthiness of such a difficult undertaking !! Thank you very much, Luke. Love, Brighty

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I remember a quote that I heard long ago and I don't know who said it.  "Life is just a dream about a dream" or something to that effect.  I just wanted to say that I have been through withdrawals from opiates several times.  The hardest part of the whole experience for me has been that the only people that I can relate to are fellow addicts.  And we seem to be in constant search of the "buzz".  No matter how good our intentions are of staying clean and how much we work the program, it all breaks down at some point.  I lost a sponsor due to relapse and ended up joining him "out there".  What to do, what to do?  Are we doomed?  Is life really a dream about a dream?  How do you maintain your sanity, Spook?  J.B.

[cindi]

Hey JB, How r u doing today?  I just got home from work, and on the ride home I always have time to think,  My mind takes me to these place and questions.  Do you remember the post where Tom declared how much he loved drugs and I responded by saying that you guys think my thoughts?  well, again you have done it....You have posed a question that I have asked myself over and over again...Not only do we relate to other addicts the best, do we all think alike?  It seems so...at least we all have the same questions, you guys are just much better at putting your words into writing and you have more courage to ask the questions...sometimes I'm not sure if I really want the answer but I'd love to hear what spook has to say also....Love to all   Cindi

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I've had much better days than the last two. I'm glad that you asked though.  Part of me wants to go out and get wasted and part of me says stay home and be good.  I've chosen the latter and will try to be good for me and mine.  It's just experience that keeps me headed in the right direction anymore.  God knows that I don't need any more problems in my life!  Be good and have a safe weekend, Cindi.  J.B.

[cindi]

I'm glad you chosse the latter, being good is always safer and I'm sure it is a benefit to your wife.  I have those days as well, wanting to get so wasted that I am totally numb but...I have 3 reasons to say home..they are 3,7 and my husband.  God bless you and Yours,  have a great weekend and be well...love to all cindi

[Brighty]

Hello friend !
I do not have any answers... and those of us not searching for a "buzz" still have an empty hole inside somewhere... the sense that something is missing and we need to fill it. I have come to the conclusion that only the Divine can fill it.... that is the only peace... the only real sanity. I know this but am not so good at accomplishing it... I think it's a life's work. Love to Marty from me also. Brighty

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Just a thought here, but this family issue hit me like a ton of bricks.  When I am with my grandchildren, I'm a much happier person.  I feel so responsible and worthwhile and needed.  It's like being in another world for me.  My family offers me some much needed self esteem!  That's part of the solution, I think.  Have a great day, Cindi!  J.B.

[Thomas02]

A few posts up from this one (by you) has me confused. Are you saying you've achieved a psychological or spiritual state that allows you to use opiates like Heroin with impunity? Or did I misundertand you? You're obviously quite well informed and intelligent, but some might call those "famous last words." I know they would be if I were saying them.

[spook]

Regarding keeping my or ones Sanity;
Some say that talking to oneself is the First sign of going insane,I have never ventured past this first sign,if one keeps things bottled up then depression and Neurotic Anxieties are certain to emerge,talking to others may/can help,but I have found that it is myself that "I"(my conscience)needs to talk to.
I live alone and have a stress free lifestyle with no responsibilties,these are achievements I actively sought in order to find peace.

[spook]

That is exactly what I have been trying to tell everybody,I am in a "take it or leave it frame of mind-do not care either way",regarding Opioids(yes IV Heroin included)or ANY drug,Now I am trying to retrace my footsteps to explain to anybody interested how I achieved this Freakish state of mind.Why would I make this up?.I am trying to work out what happened exactly myself,I know it was a long journey with much pain,20 years at least,no magic drugs,something to do with a shift in the way I view life(and death)and my expectations of what life should give me has changed it is like, now, what life can I give to myself,it is VERY spiritual.

[spook]

I do not see that getting high is doing YOU any harm physically,emotionally or Spiritually,Humans have been doing drugs since we came out of the cave and learn`t to harness fire,many drugs contribute vitally to religious ceremonies and the well being of their culture,I know people that have never used a psychotropic in their whole lives and they are selfish naive people,you are the opposite of that.Do not let our current society trick you into thinking you are doing something wrong,it is a mixed up crazy system we live in now,I think you show purity and wisdom in your use of these chemicals,in a way you are trying to turn your back on the wrongness of it all,NOT escape from yourself,you are being made a victim,by a materialist culture dominated by atheists living in a fools paradise.I think you are to hard on yourself sometimes,maybe you feel guilt?.Its not like you seek oblivion,you seek truth and have found a truth that works for you in this society,I do not see a problem at all with you.But thats just my opinion,others may think different.You are lucky to passionately love doing anything as much as you claim to being high.If you wanted to stop I think you would,you are not asking for help as much as seeking permission and only you can give yourself the freedom to do what you want with your life.

[Thomas02]

thank you for the kind words, spook. It has always been a lonely battle for me because I always seem to be confronted by people who think I am hurting them by doing, as Joseph Campbell said, "Following my bliss," an act Campbell identified as a common denominator for all societies with mythic traditions. I can't claim with total honesty that my use of drugs has never harmed anyone, at least if you include inadvertently inflicting emotional pain as doing harm. Of course, over the years, I could have been a better provider, more sensitive husband and better father if I had not had this obsession to deal with. I would never try to maintain that there hasn't been a price to all of this. But I do not consider myself evil, immoral or cruel. I am a man playing the hand I've been dealt. And despite your discouraging report about buprenorphin in Australia, it is my hope that bup will be legalized as a treatment for opiate addiction and that I will be able to utilize it as soon as it becomes legal and, with the right help, learn to taper myself off of the stuff for good. I certainly hope we've learned from the Aussie experience with bup and make more of a success of it. With my record, I could probably get on methadone right now. However, I understand methadone is the hardest opiate of all to get off of, heroin included. That is why I'm patiently monitoring the status of bup and quietly making plans to avail myself of it. All official indicatons seem to be that bup will become legal to treat opiate addiction in a private doctor's office somewhere between now and this summer.

[Thomas02]

Annie, after reviewing this thread I felt the need to thank you for your kind words of concern for my life-long addiction and obvious struggle with even deciding what to do about it. I know your compassion is genuine and I am truly moved that you would care so much for someone you've never even met. Addiction is, often a form of adversity and, as a wise man or woman once said, one's nobility and humanity are only truly revealed at moments of adversity and pain. Your words "give you away" as a woman of compassion and humanity and I just wanted to acknowledge it while it was on my mind. I haven't given up on overcoming my predicament but I have no illusions that it will be easy or that the solution is as cut and dried as just attending meetings, as important as I admit that is. Please give my best to your husband and I conratulate you both on finding a way to deal with your own addictions in such a positive way.
Peace to you both,
tom

[Thomas02]

Spook: spook, if I give you the following e-mail address, I would be honored to be allowed to read even excerpts from your book. I don't think you realize how insightful and excitingly unorthodox your writings are. I have earned my living as a professional technical writer, mostly for the computer industry, for going on twenty years, many of which have been spent as an editor, proof reader, writer's mentor to authorities in various fields -- the point is, in exchange for being allowed to read some of your work I would make myself useful as a "pre-audience" for your work. You've stated that one of your goals is to make a multi-disciplinary work understandable to a broad, "unevenly qualified" audience. This is an editorial function I have performed successfully many times for authors of all kinds, often for experts writing in English as a second language -- not that this would be your case. I mention it only to express the range of editing work I have performed in the past. Of course, according to your copyright laws and mine, anything you allowed me to read would be kept in the strictest confidence.

just think about it. You have only yourself to blame. Your subject matter and approach is just too interesting to ignore.

here's my address. Please reply even if it's just to say no. I would respect that as much as anything. Remember, I'm not looking for pay, just intelllectual stimulation on a subject of great personal interest to me.

***@****

I look forward to hearing from you!!! Peace to you spook.

tom

[spook]

Patrick/Tom I appreciate any help you can give me.I have emailed you a copy of this,their is another 243 pages.


page 1.
                             The Enigma of Consciousness

LUKE. G. EDWARD.
<a href="***@****" target="_new">

INTRODUCTION

Can one percieve the entirety of an object, that which, themselves are only a tiny component of ?.
  The Omniety,God, Krsna,Allah or any other name one refers to as their Deity of worship is possibly composed of all the particles in this Universe,especially,the as yet undiscovered particles that compose Space itself (Wheeler refered to them as Pre-Geometry).As mere Humans we must be composed of a limited and negligable number in comparison to the Deity.
  In order to percieve of God,I believe one must use their Consciousness`s most refined and Pure(emotionally unadulterated) form of its human manifestation,which I shall call our "Soul"throughout this Book.
  The term Spiritual or Spirit I shall consider our most precious Human emotional experience of  the expanded conscious state,that can, as mentioned be distilled to the level of  emotionless Soul.
  In order to percieve of ones Deity they must shut down consciouness to the puriy and level of the  Soul and use its Ultra-sub-particle Quantum Energy Matrix of structure(pre-geometry) and the net collective effects of its attractive gravitational forces to interact with the larger all pervasive structure that permiates this entire Universe and in this book I shall refer to this All pervasive structural  consciousness as God,the Super Soul,
  Cosmic Consciousness as the state of intersection of the soul with God and the Universe.
  Collective Consciousness will be considered a similar communication but done between humans and also existing in perpetualty on its own accord,whether or not one taps into it or is conscious of it.
  Awareness will be differentiated from consciousness in that is requires the Neurological Structures of Organisation of the brain/mind as well as some consciousness to exist and will also be considered the "Normal" state of mind typified by having a  Subconsciousness.
This allows for awareness of being Conscious and consciousness of being aware.
  Ego will be considered as an emotive and Intellectual manifestation of the "Normal" state of mind,and referred to as the "False Self"in this Book,The persons "Identity" in their unenlightened state.
  Unenlightened are those essentially Egocentric Humans complete with subconsciousness whose consciousness is dislocated or blocked from its source (the Soul) as it has not yet been expanded and eventually by repetetive expansion,learned how to  remove the blockade and programing of society.
  The "Normal" state of mind will be considered a natural reponse to its environment and not a disease,although the Cosmic/soul-conscious mind will be considered Superior.Even an semi-egoless expanded semi-deprogrammed mind is superior,for reasons that will be explained in chapter 2.
Enlighened as being anything other than "Normal".

page2

  This Book will provide the supporting Physics and Neurochemical and Neuroanatomical information about our Normal Mind and instructions to achieve and make contact with your Soul,and possibly the Cosmos(Universe) and thus God,it also looks at the Social, Cultural and Political ramifications and interactions of a predominance in our Western Societies of this Proliferation and acceptance of Normality Insuperior.
  Much of the research is backed up by Neuropsychopharmacological and Quantum Physics experiments and Vast amount personal experience.

CHAPTER 1.  The Neuropsychological, Neurochemical,Neuroanatomical correlates of Human behaviour and related Physics.

Quantum Physics dictates that the  Human Brain is not capable of accurately percieving Reality and that standard perception is based on Cartesian/Newtonian systems,concepts and structures.The notion of  the existence of God and our souls has plausible scientific basis when understood through the eyes of someone who has a grasp of these Sciences.
  In order to percieve the true nature of our Universe,one must first reduce all sensory input to a minimum,But this is the final step and many other things must be achieved first,I will mention them in due course.
  Sensory Deprivation allows Dopamine to accumulate in pre-synaptic  storage vesicles in the midbrain region otherwise known as the Mesencphalon.(Middle brain).
It is an area of the brain stem that is positioned such that signals of information (electrical) from all other parts of the "brain"above it and around it and the nervous system below it-our "body",must pass through it.
Once Sufficient Dopamine has accumulated and saturation occurs the Dopamine Neurons will easily release the Dopamine Neurotransmitter, with extremely little external stimuli,in fact,you will be taught to use an internal trigger to start the Dopamine cascade event.
In this state, the Reticular Activating System (RAS) that surrounds the Midbrain and is essentally the Reducing Valve of Sensory information,will be fully operative,leading to the Increased Consciousness required to start our two fold task, first looking outward upon our own minds and eliminating subconcious and ego and deprograming our "Normal"selves such that we can then acheive the second part of  this very tedious and long adventure(it took me over 20 years)looking in deeply within ourselves ignoring the mind and body in effect now contracting our expanded consciousness to the pinpoint pre-geometry that in essence is our soul,ie consciousness and attaches and interacts gravimetrically with the entire universe,this is the Cosmic conscious state,you will be in the Mind of God.
It is only the interaction of our souls consciousness with our minds awareness as it pertains to itself that allows us as humans to introspect and be aware of the fact that we are alive,othewise we may not realize this and may behave in a destructive and ego orientated mode of social programing.I believe that now in this year 2001 many people do not and are not self-realized and a lot of this Book is concerned in how we de-evolved to this low conscious and thus Intellectual point and the social,political,religious and personal consequences of existence within a predominantly 'Souless",material object orientated society and almost World now.

page 3.

  Albert Einstein stated that no information can travel faster than the speed of light and Newton postulated that ALL bodies have attractive gravitational forces associated with them.For Newton,time and space formed an absolute framework,within which the material events of the world ran their course in imperturbable order.His was a Gods eye view of the "World": it looks the same to every observer,where they are or how they travel.By contrast it has been said that Einstein`s is a Humans eye view,in which what you see and what I see is relative to each of us,that is,to our place and speed,and this relativity cannot be removed,"we can only communicate our own views to one another.And communication is not instant;we cannot remove from it the basic time-lag of all signals,which is set by the speed of light".
  At the end of Einsteins life he was "still" working to seek a unity between gravitation and the forces of electricity and magnetism.
  Today Quantum Physics has found no Gravity shields and see no limit to the forces of gravity in that you, for example, exert a force upon the moon,however very relatively small and no atom or sub-particle cannot also be excluded from being caught up in the theory that every particle in this entire universe is communicating Via gravity with every other particle.
  I therefore state that information can travel instantaneously via gravitional attraction and is not restricted to the velovity of light; (E=mc˛)-is an equation by Einstein,which essentially converts any particle to pure massless energy if it achieved the speed of light,regardless Quantum Physics has now dicovered Particles called Tachyons that travel faster than light.And the force of gravity can be shown to act instantaneously.Further more it cannot be shown that mass displaces space and the two can coexist in the same place and time simualtaneously.
  So their is a continuous link or intersection even an overlapping or embedding from the yet "undefined" pre-geometry of space to the as yet undiscovered  further levels of the Quark/Lepton system of arrangement of subparticles of the Quantum theory to the Proton,neutron and electron,to the atom,to the molecule,to the cell,to the complex multicellular organisms we are.And only an accurate view of the "Real" reality can be ascertained by observations by us Humans by our direct link with it through our consciousness. not our "normal" perceptive organs including our brain and its offspring the mind.
  Dopamine,Noradrenaline(norepinephrine),Serotonin and Endorphins are naturally occuring brain chemicals called Neurotransmitters,their are many more but these have proven to be the most informative when it comes to understanding Human behaviour,emotion and cognition,these chemicals(molecules) are involved in :Pleasure,Pain,Depression,Mania,Motivation,Meditation,Sleep,Alertness,Sexual Arousal,Impotence,Thinking,,etc,etc.
  Basically I have  constructed a paradigm involving them using  the criteria of ;INITIATION,FACILITATION and TERMINATION of Human behaviours.
  Some of the actions of Dopamine within the Central Nervous System (CNS)are activation or arousal,your threshold to percieving sensory pleasure is lowered with high Dopamine levels,meaning you need much less of the stimulation to feel the same amount of pleasure.The analogy I use is that Dopamine provides the "itch",desire,urge sensation subjectively experienced,Dopamine can then be characterized as the INITIATION Neurotransmitter in regard to human behaviour(Drive).It is also involved in some memory retrieval and imprinting processes.
  Norepinephrine is the FACILITATION molecule it facilitates repetative motor (muscle) tasks,through activation of appropriate Neural pathways,like Eating(chewing) and Sexual Motor Actions,Writing,walking,etc,etc,It also assists in short to long term memory storage,it is also, like Dopamine, involved in reward pathways and can produce Euphoria or pleasurable somatopsychic sensations,the analogy is that it provides the "scratch"or relief to the Dopamine induced "itch".
  
page 4.

Endorphins(Enogenous Morphine like substances) have effects of satiation and release from the Dopamine/Noradrenaline;itch/scratch cycle of behaviour.It dulls ones one Consciousness and has the effect of making your mood euphoric and basicaly impervious to outside stimulation and thus the task orientated Drive/Reward(Motivation) sytem is deactivated.It attenuates learning and recollection and is capable of TERMINATION of drive mediated human behaviour.Repetative physical tasks cause a build up of these brain/body chemicals (of which many types exist).In large quantities they have  the effect of illiciting , literally,a dreamlike quality to Reality.
  Serotonin is an inhibitory and excitatory Neurotransmitter,it is better classed as Modulator of all three other above mentioned Chemical messenger molecules.It has been implicated in Predatory aggression,ie stalking and hunting behaviours (perserverance)as well as sleep and mood maintenaince,as usual, many other functions not mentioned here.It is is also rewarding or euphorigenic and could be classed as inhibitory or facilitory depending upon the afferent stimuli ie(fear or aggression).  The interaction of these three classes,Chatecholamine ,Indoleamines, Polypeptides with each other and their relation and connections to our cerebral memory traces and Limbic emotional centres form the Motivating foundations to human behavior.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................