Do cravings/urges diminish significantly after a certain time period?

[Rex1]

Dr. Horvath,

I have read the info on your site - helpful stuff! (really!)

The one answer I did not find is whether there is a certain threshold point, like a month, or a year, in which your cravings to use significantly diminish. I know a person's pain and physiology has a lot to do with it, but in your experience, is there a common denominator time length when this happens? I would be interested in opinions from from my friends here too.

I am now seeing what everyone says about gettng clean being easier than staying clean, like getting clean was easy! Easy like a root canal followed by a gasoline enema!

Over the last two days, I have hourly knock down - drag out sword fights with myself over getting some relief with the lowest dose of Vicodin possible. It goes something like this "You are in pain, get some relief and just keep your dose low". "You fool, you are a drug addict. One pill per day means 12 pills per day eventually".

With God's help and the folks here, I have won both days. I am now at day 32 - no narcotics whatsover. Will this get any easier after a month, three months, 6, a year?

Thanks for the help.

Rex

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

WAY TO GO REX!!--I MYSELF AM DAY 10 OUT OF HYDROCODONE HELL--NOW LET THE MIND GAMES BEGIN!  I AM JUST CONCENTRATING ON TODAY THATS ALL ANY OF US CAN DO! GOOD LUCK!

[Rex1]

Day 10 - way to go!!!

How are you feeling? I guess what's helping me is the approaching Jan 1st day and all that it means for next year. Freedom.

Rex

[hellbent]

"at day 32 - no narcotics whatsover. Will this get any easier after a month, three months, 6, a year?"

First off, and it's a cliche, but it's all one day at a time. You don't use today no matter what. Maybe you will tomorrow, who knows, but you stay clean today.

Looking at staying clean like it's something you need to do for the rest of your life can be a trap. The future stretches out and, for me, looks like a long responsibility with no relief, when I consider staying clean "forever", so I try to live in the present and be grateful that, for today, I am not a slave to drugs.

Second, it's been my experience that real addicts usually don't stay clean unless they actually change the way they think and respond to life. I know that if I don't continue to grow as a human being, I am at risk. I am either going away from that first pill or towards it, I am never standing still.

I couldn't have stayed clean for 8 months without some help. I have a new group of friends, many of them in AA/NA. I have found a very cool, fun group of people that are very serious about being clean/sober. They often remind me that it's all a day at a time, and that finding and discarding the personality traits and defects that make me want to use is as important as just "not using".

Do you go to meetings or have any support group? I'm not talking about this board: it's great and all but this place alone wouldn't keep me sober for a nanosecond.

[needhelp1]

Hi,

It has been about 6 months since i have last posted to this forum. I think i would have stayed around and read everyone posts everyday as a remider i would not have relapsed. This is my story i was doing heavy norco and vicodin use for about 10 months proir to my first detox. When i detoxed i remeber the first 72 hours being pure hell. I had the sh!ts for weeks it seemed like. i would have no problem going to sleep at night but would wake in the middle of the night not able to go back to sleep. Today yet again i am detoxing. after 3 months i fooled myself into thinking i could just take 1 pill. well 3 months later here i am.which in this wonderfull world of detox again. as unsure about it as i was the first time i went through it. I have about 1 month of heavy use under the belt as of right now.  I remeber after about the first 72 hours starting to feel better physically but not yet mentally. and after the first week seeing a little shine of hope mentally. I started to take kava, st. john wart, and 5htp the kava and 5htp made sleep at night a little more tolerable. As of 5 o'clock today i will have hit my 72 hour mark again. Hoping i never have to look back again. Hoping i can feel what i felt again after detoxing the first time. It seemed like within a month most of the last pill i started to feel myself again and got of all the herbal pill. I also quit drinkin caffiene when i detoxed and have done so again. I pray at night for god to help me through this. But i have a long lonley road to walk as i havent yet told my GF as to what i am going through. You just have to keep in you head that the hours will turn into days, days to months and hopefully this time i can make the months turn into years. i know i dont want to walk this road again. and to everyone that is be strong. there i light at the end of the tunnel.

A

[Recopiateaddict]

Rex:
I wanted to let you know that I too am a recovering Hydrocodone addict and I also suffer from chronic pain from Crohn's disease.  I was to the point I was taking 35 Lortab 10's a day.  I don’t know what is causing your pain.  Do you have a disease?  Are you a victim of an accident? As far as the "physical pain" no one knows when it will get easier, like you said it really depends on your body.  But, as far as the cravings and wanting the drug and all the pain envolved with this, I have some very good advice.   Since you are 32 days clean (WAY TO GO!), I would get your current physician to write you a prescription for Revia AKA Naltrexone which is an opiate antagonist.  As long as your body is totally clear of all opiates then you can take the Revia at 25 mg a day and you will experience zero withdrawals or cravings.  Also, it is an Opiate antagonist, therefore if you take an opiate with the Revia in your system you will feel no pain relief therefore taking the opiates would be pointless and you would be forced to stick with Advil or Tylenol, that is if you are committed, like you said you are a drug addict.  That is one thing to ALWAYS keep in mind before you pop that little blue pill.  Please, mention this to your Dr and I hope everything works out for you!  If you get on the Revia I promise things will get much much easier for you!

God Bless!
Jay

PS:  If you want more info on how this drug works go to www.opiates.com

[peaz]

NO urges or withdrawl symptoms?? Was this how it was for you?    Peaz

[Rex1]

Yeah, years of abuse of my back, starting with

6 years supermarket work - ugh!
3 years bartender word - ugh ugh!
6 years wakeboarding - damage still revealing itself. Jurassic ugh!
16 years working at a desk - not helping at all.

I know that I have a moderate case of degenerative disk disease, plus I am starting to supsect that I have Arthritis. However, I will not know for sure until i have some more sobriety under my belt.

With God's help, I will have been away from alcohol now for 7 years on Jan 2nd. I used Antabuse to kick start that detox and it worked. Hoping to do the same with the Hydros and it sounds like this Naltrexone is the same kinda of a deal. Does it help with the cravings then?

Rex

[Recopiateaddict]

Peaz:
Yes, once I stuck it out and allowed my body time to be flushed of all the opiates (3-60) days, depending on what you are taking and the quantity.  My BEST advice to you is to contact an addictionologist M.D. and let him decide how long you need to be opiate free before you start the Revia treatment.  Revia has been on the market for 25 yrs and has no side effects or mood altering effects. Sounds like the miracle drug huh?  The catch is you have to be totally opiate free before taking Revia or your body will go into extreme withdrawals!  Once you start the treatment you have to stay Opiate free or you will go through these withdrawals.  To answer your question, YES no cravings or withdrawals once I started the Revia treatment. It saved my life.  But, the opiate free days allowing my body to flush all the opiates were pure hell, but once I was able to take the Revia all the hell turned to heaven, I actually had a normal life back.

Jay

[Recopiateaddict]

Rex:
Yes, it totally knocks out all cravings and withdrawals!  REMEMBER that you have to be totally opiate free for at least 5-7 days or you will go through EXTREME withdrawals if you take the Revia.  Like I told Peaz my best advice to you is to contact an addictionologist M.D. or you could contact the Waismann Institute at 1-310-205-0808 or www.opiates.com and ask about how Revia AKA Naltrexone works.  Ask for Dr. Jeff Crausman and he will be very helpful!  God Bless and good luck.

Jay

[Rex1]

Thanks for the info.

No problem on the time period thing. I have 31 days as of today (32 maybe).

I'll check it out.

Rex

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

you are in my thoughts and prayers--i am 10 days clean--i too was counting the hours through this agonizing withdrawal--it does get better!!!i found the thomas recipe a tremendous help!!
i had done such a "beautiful job" of covering up my addiction that basically no one knew my dirty little secret--10-12 hydrocodone pills per day for the last few years-i think we reach a point where we are sick of the lies, the doctor shopping, the paranoia of "running out" and of course i was terrified that someone might discover and confront me about this insidious disease. just think you will be free of all of that--what a relief!! i never thought i could live a day without those pills--just goes to show you what a grip they have on our psyche.
good luck stay the course and keep coming to this sight--it has been a godsend to me! peace, love and most of all hope--a new life in a new year!!!

[needhelp1]

you are also i my prayers. I will contiune to be strong and wait this thing out. 10 days is good. No looking back now. you will back to normal in no time. I can wait for the 10 day mark.

A

[hippy]

hi rex . good tideings and all that .
your question is a good one , the obession to use drugs
goes away completly, as you stay clean sa i have mentioned
i was totoly clean in NA for 17 years.
there are a few things to take into account, one is
everyone is different, but there are much more that we have in common being that as it may, there is a saying in the 12 step programs ( YOU HAVE TO GIVE IT AWAY TO KEEP IT.
WE REAP WHAT WE SOW SO BY HELPING OTHERS  IS VERY IMPORTANT
IN ONGOING CLEAN TIME. being alone and not sharing and helping others  is in and of itself selfish and self centered.
selfcenteredness is one of the major problems of useing addicts.
even those of us clean have to deal with this problem,when we
abuse drugs are lives revolve around finding ways and means to
use and get drugs. in order to CHANGE this we need to find someting else for our lives to revolve around.
by staying busy in positive ways we can learn to keep our minds
on things other than drigs.
i have found in my experence that there are times in the 1st year
clean that we will get an obsession to use drugs and the compulsion to use drugs comes over us and it tells us that we are going to use and that we can use now or later on , yhat night.for a lot of us we wind up useing, if we do not call someone asap i have been through this type of obsession
it seem to be so strong , from the top of my head to my feet
the urge to use is tremondous,it will bring you to tears.
so many times i gave into it. the way i got past it was by calling someone and going over there house for the night.
once we get past this ithe next time it happens it is easier to get through. we have to set ourselves up for recovery.
in the 1st year of recovery i trie not to spend time alone.
especally on fridays
another thing i have noticed is when people in early recovery would go to a rock concert or dancing at a bar they think they
did good my going and not useing,  ONLY TO GET AN OBESSION
THE NEXT WEEK OUT OF THE BLUE, AND THEY WONDERED WHERE IT CAME FROM. it like a delayed reaction. we are very sensitive
people and all these type of situations affect us more than we know.
recovery is about change, my definanition of recovery is positive
active change in our attitudes and action brought on by living and practicing spiritual principles. like honesty, openmindedness
wilingness, humility, faith ,acceptance,to name a few.
one of the most helpful things in early recovery for me
was and is a daily medatation book.NA has one called just for today. when i got clean back in 84 there was on just for today book ,but ther was a daily book written bt to female addicts called  EACH DAY IS A NEW BEGINUNG. . they can be purchased at amozon ,com .  they are small.
aa has one also , but i have not had drink since villanova
on the ncca basketball championship back in 84.
one of my personal daily medatations that i write on
is WHERE HAVE I BEEN WRONG-- WHERE AM I WRONG-- WHERE WILL I BE WRONG. i practice accepting that i am the problem, and try not to blame others.
and lastly morning prayer is a very good important part
of my recoveryan old timer at meeting once said to me
people who hit there knees seem to stay clean.
at night i do a gratitude prayer, thank yo u, thank you, thank you.

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hippy

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

Amen! you stated that so eloquently--thank you--you are one of my inspirations--along with Rex/Bodymechanic/and everyone who takes the time to reach out to us poor pathetic creatures--peace-
love and hope!

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

Amen! you stated that so eloquently--thank you--you are one of my inspirations--along with Rex/Bodymechanic/and everyone who takes the time to reach out to us poor pathetic creatures--peace-
love and hope!

[hippy]

tank you ,
your post is very kind
we are all in the same boat here.
WE IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT
one addict helping another.
i hope you have a joyfull and
peacefull day.

i'll be looking foward to reading your posy in the days to com

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sharonver]

Hi All,

I have been detoxing from methadone very slowly 1mg every other week, it has not been too bad until last week, got to 6mg.  Now I am very uncomfortable, chills, runny nose, aches & pains, headache constantly,yawning etc. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to relieve any of these symptoms?  I am trying to be off completely by the end of Feb. If I could stay at home I could try to cope with it, but its so hard when you have to work and you are wiped out.

S

[hippy]

hi rex, just want to get you input on a very interesting book
it is called
                        ADDICTIONS
                  a banquet in the grave.

             finding hope in the power of the gospel.

           by.  EDWARD T .WELCH.

THE PERSON WHO WROTE THIS HAS AN OFFICE 3 LITES FROM MY HOME.

I THINK YOU WILL FIND IT QUIET ENLIGHTING.

YOUR FREIND  , HIPPY

[Jennibean]

Classic withdrawal symptoms for sure! This is just my opinion but I think at this point you are absolutely delaying your withdrawal. I was on Methadone for a period and I know it is hell to get off of but if you are having all of those issues and you have been decreasing by such small amounts I think you might be better off to just do it! When I did it I went from 5mg down to 2.5 for a few days and tehn off. I obviously had trouble sleeping and felt crappy but I really think that because I did that it was over alot faster. You can keep decreasing by 1mg and drag this on through February at which point you will still feel crappy after you are down to nothing or you can try just going to 2.5 for a week and then done and get this over with. That way you might actually feel better by February instead of just getting finished in February. I am not sure what if anything gets rid of teh runny nose, sweats etc. I know I have used Clonodine but I am not sure what symptoms that actually helps because I still feel terrible on that. The runny nose etc are such acute withdrawal symptoms such as you get going cold turkey so I am quite suprised you are having all of that when you are decreasing so slowly. Whatever you decide I wish you the best of luck. Sadly there is nothing I know of to take the pain away. I hate withdrawal more than any other illness I have ever had, I dread it which is why I am currently putting it off. I keep saying I will start tomorrow. Being down to 6mg is nothing short of AWESOME!!!!! You are doing great and you must at least feel fantastic about yoru accomplishment! Keep going and all I can say is try to get this done quicker. My addictionologist would deffinately say you are causing yourself more agony doing it so slowly at this point. Good Luck to You.
Jen

[sharonver]

Thanks for the encouragement,

I tried doing this a few years ago decreasing 5mg at a time and I couldn't do it.  My counselor suggested doing it 1mg at a time which until I got to 6mg it was ok. I was told the slower I went the better it would be. I would love to be off before Feb. but I am worried that the withdrawals will be even worse if I do it quicker.  So I am uncertain as to what I should do.  But I am proud of myself I have been pretty strong this time around!  Any other advise, I would appreciate it.

Sharon

[Bandersnatch]

Hi Rex,

I have been lurking in here for some time, and I had an observation, and then maybe a question for you regarding your newfound spirituality.

Rex, sometimes your posts are filled with wonderous praise of our Lord and Saviour, but at other times when you appear to be struggling with your addiction, it seems as if the light that the Lord has turned on in your soul is flickering. Do you know what I'm saying? I think that it is wonderful for you that you can give hope to others through the comfort of Christ. I just worry for you because when you are helping others here, you are feeling the strength that our Lord can give to anyone who asks. but when you are struggling with those terrible thoughts in your own mind, it's as if you have forgotten what you have been so elequently saying to others seeking help. Sometimes it is so easy for us to see the miracles that God can make happen in others; while we overlook the little miracles that He helps bring into our lives every single day! I have some wonderfulfriends that have related stories of how sometimes God works through others to help YOU. If something bothers you, just have faith that God may choose someone who doesn't even know of your troubles yet to come into your life. Just have patience, Rex. Maybe you don'e realize it, but that ARE people in this very internet board that God has chosen to help THROUGH YOU. You need not wonder when it will be your turn to receive His help for the problems facing you right now... He will facilitate your healing!!

God bless you Rex.

Kathy

[pon]

Hi Rex...I am at 105 days free of hydrocodone and 14 years 364 days free of alcohol.  I have found that the issue of cravings is different for everyone...so, I think you will somewhat need to be prepared that you may face anything.  That can be both good and bad....the cravings may pass fairly quickly, they may take a long time...different for each addict.  My experience with alcohol was that at about 10 days I started having some relief from the wanting...at 28 it seemed to be mediumish...at 6 months pretty light...after a year it wasn't bad.  at 15 years there is none left at all.

For Hydro (I am at 105 days...long story) I found the wanting really tough through day 5, then very tough OFF & ON to day 14 and then gradually less out to 45 days...I really don't have much left at this point, more just an occaisional bad thought that"one time would be alright"...and when those come I do whatever I have to to ensure I crush it...exercise, work, talk to others, play with my kids, ride my horse....stay busy and try NOT to be alone.

Good luck...prayers

Pon

[needhelp1]

i had that "one time would be alright thought." Now look where i am right back where i started. 72 hours clean. 2 sleepless nights so far and the runs. At 3 months clean i seemed so far away from this! but look where i am now. I hope this is a wake up call to me. TO NEVER GO BACK AGAIN. and i hope i can find that "normal" feeling i found after i detoxed the first time and the sleeped filled nights that came along with it. But for awhile i will have to put up with what i brought onto myself. So never think that u can take just 1. Or get high just once. Cause it just doesnt work. Atleast not for me. I will keep u in my prayers.

A

[pon]

Someone here said many times " 1 pill is too many and 10,000 is not enough"....I believe that to be true.  The important thing to remember is that you are doing this for your freedom...freedom from slavery to a pill...

prayers

pon

[saveyourself]

Ditto on everything you mentioned in c 13 to Rex.  I have relapsed before I even knew I took the drug or drink.  I am staying away from people, places and casinos because I am addict with a disease that is always working 24/7. My addiction is up doing push ups and working out before I am physicaly awake.  It is patient ,cunning and waiting for that one moment to create a situation for relapse.  It is my most threating enemy that wants me in jails , instutions, dead or relapsed and in withdrawls.  What sucks is it lives within me.

The only hope and defence I have is what was mentioned in your post, hippee. Got your note and e address.  I will write soon.  World convention is in San Diego.  I hear the hotels around are filling up,  If we go , I will know in the next week, work wise,  my wife and I are bringing our kids ,staying by the beach and won't be there 24 hrs a day.  I want to rent a double masted 48 ft, sail boat for 4 hrs.  I did it once years ago and even got to pilot it for a half hour. The kids and wife will dig it.  We will be attending many of the functions as there are alot of addicts from vegas going.  It's in april, I will get exact dates in the next day or two.

Rex, dude, you have motivated so many people for 1-01-03.  I read your post and you have the same ailments as me except 3 knee surgeries, let me know tonite how your doing. My wife and kids are in AZ for three days. So I am Free except for the dogs and cat.  Hang in there.

[hippy]

you bro good to here from ya,
really good to resd you post
i'll see who is going to the world.
a lot of my freinds are all clean for many years
and all of them are highly sucessful
i sponsered most of them for years.
all of them are rags to riches  stories,
mostly x heron addicts. now they are all golf addicts
and we all struggle with gambling.
we all are involved with our communities,
thins like coaching and small time politics.

love to here from ya.
i have to be up at 5 am , but i be home at 4 pm tommorow.

peace  hippy

[Rex1]

Kathy - Hello and welcome. Hi to my buds!

If I understand your point and your question, they are that I offer God through Christ as a solution to others but in my own struggles do not trust that someone else with God's help may help me? I hope I said that clearly enough.

Well that is precisely why I posted. And on Christmas Eve, the words from my pal Vicojen and T and Thomas and many others pushed me through it. But as I mentioned as well, I went to Church and knelt in the sanctuary and told God that I didn;t want to give it to Him, but I was willing to let Him take it.

So here is how it went down. I am posting this for the sole purpose of strengthing others and to illustrate how God is real in my life - not to be dramatic. This is exactly how it happened.

I had 6 vicodin available to me. Not even Norco mind you, just plain Vicodin. (There was a time I could have taken 6 or 7 of those and felt nothing, BTW).

I went to Church and prayed. Later at home, a voice said "just take one it will ease your pain, the doc says it OK". I said "No" it won't. "1 will be 1,000". Hours of back and forth went by, like a sword fight, blow for blow. I was losing, and I could feel it.

Like Hippee said, I needed to call someone. I got on the board and posted. Thomas helped me. T was there. But then Vicojen put in in perspective, saying many people with much worse pain than me can get by with no Narcs, which is when it hit home. I just wanted to get high, basically.

But I still was teetering. I went back, hit my knees and just gave it all up, gave it to God. Finished praying and was sitting on the bed a little later still in battle mode. . I thought about throwing away this whole month and what that would feel like. I thought about my first week here, and then next. I thought about how others here might be affected if I slipped up.

Quite suddenly, something came over me like I never felt, a force not equal to the "use" force - it was stronger! I bolted up off the bed, got the Vicodin, walked to the bathroom and slammed them into the toilet, giving em the middle finger on the way down (I'm not really a well person, am I?). Here's how powerful this thing we all battle is - when I slammed then down the toilet, one of em hits the side of the bowl and bounces out!!! I am not lying!!! And of course, the things seems to be running from me on the floor, like in a dream. It would have been easy to say "It's a sign". Nope, goodbye.

One of the greatest moments of my recovery no doubt, but I could have never done it without God, and my Christian and non-Christian friends here. Whether they were sent by God or not, is not my call, but I believe everything that happens in one's life - God is making it happen or allowing it to happen.

Christmas Day was also one of those days where you rationalize to yourself "Today's special, you should enjoy it pain free". But the Vicodin was gone. Although we addicts can always think of ways to get narcotics, it seems at any hour, I kept thinking Christmas and Easter are the two Holiest of Days of all during the year. No way I am using today.

And well today, nothing, no urges, just some back pain.

So I will take the following advice I have received and out them in order.

Pray
Trust God
Reach Out for Help
Offer help
Take it one day at time
Replace using with postive activity
Be honest with people
Use the Thomas Recipe
Know that relapse will be on the hunt, and avoid the traps

You guys are awesome, for a bunch of addicts. And it takes one to know one. (Listen to me, would ya? It's like the end to a bad Sydney Sheldon novel.)

Let me know how I can return the favors. On to day 33...

Rex

[lisabet]

Hey buddy - sounds like you've had a tough few days, but you pulled through them; your strength astounds me. I'm really proud of you. You described the despair of just wanting that one pill so badly you can taste it. I've been there so often. You're doing it, Rex, one day at a time (as Teeitup says, that's the only way to go!).  Way to go, baby!!!!!!  Peace/Love, Lisabet

[Rex1]

Thanks for your response. Would love to hear more about how you are doing...

Hope your holiday went well.

Thanks for your support.

Rex

[FaraBell]

C96 FaraBell
(27-Dec-02)  . Hello To All- First, I just want to say what a terrific site this is. It really allows people with Vicodin addictions to express themselves and allow others in, whereas in "the real world", that can not easily be done. Others who do not struggle with this just don't understand it. People who have an addiction such as this one NEED to talk about it because nobody really likes who they are while they are doing this. Maybe they do in the beginning (remember when it used to be fun once?!) but as they continue on that bumpy road, surely that will change. I mean, who ENJOYS downing 30-40 pills a day or MORE? I certainly didn't. Well, in the beginning, it was great. Here is a pill that allows me to be a Social Superwoman. I can do anything AT ALL....just as long as I have a few extra pills in my pocket. I started taking hydrocodone 7.5 for herniated disks in my lower back. Then, I just damn well enjoyed the way they made me feel. And so I graduated. I moved onto the 10/325mg. That was good for a little while UNTIL I discovered they make 15/325mg. I was taking about 20 a day-7 just to get out of bed and start my day. Finally, when I went to the island of Jamaica and, instead of enjoying the fun and sun, I was worried about my pill supply running out and I could not get out of bed before taking 6 pills to remove the withdrawl symptoms that were there lingering, waiting to attack me within the hour, I finally HAD IT with these "white devils". I got home from Jamaica on a Saturday and I checked into a 7 day inpatient detox on that Monday. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. They had me on a methadone detox which helped me somewhat. I was still sick for the first 3 days but NOTHING compared to what I would have been like had I done it alone at home. I know this from prior attempts on my own. I went into the detox on 11/11/02, got out on 11/19/02 and started outpatient groups 5 days a week on 11/22/02. I am currently in the outpatient group but now I go 3 days a week so that I can work a few days a week as I get to know the "me without pills". I haven't known that side of myself in a loooonnng time. And more importantly, I AM CLEAN and FREE. Because as long as you continue to take these pills, you are never free, never your own person. You make no decisions, the pills decide everything in your life for you. Everything! There are now some days I feel good and others I feel really bad. And it's on those bad days I hear my addiction calling me to it, trying to entice me back in. Those days are some of the hardest I have ever had to deal with. I never thought I would be able to get off of the Vic's in the first place and now here I am, clean for over a month. So, what keeps me from succumbing when those pills scream my name, you ask? Here's my secret: think of the things in your life that you want to happen and think of the things that are really and truly reachable and tangible. Think about the way you want to be towards your family and friends. Think about what you'd like to bring to the table in the relationships in your life. What do you want to offer to them? What would you like to be able to give back to these people? Well, once you stop taking those pills, you will be able to do the things you want to do, be the way you want to be, give back to others what they give to you, and aboveall, you will actually be pleasant to be around. Even-tempered! Imagine that one?! It will not happen overnight, it will happen slowly but SURELY. Hey, you didn't start out popping 20-30+ pills a day, did you? You had to work up to it. And if you committ yourself to this, you will work up to the point you want to be at. And with each passing day, you will feel better and better. Some days might feel like the end of the world, but that's life. THIS IS WHAT LIFE IS LIKE when you live it normally, without any mood-altering substances. And although sometimes it sucks, it still feels great...to FEEL again. I will be more than happy to help anyone of you and to answer any questions you may have, whether it's about addiction OR recovery. It all goes hand in hand. And remember, the only way you can successfully quit is if YOU want to do it and YOU-yourself- have had enough of living in hell. You cannot "do it for" your wife, husband, kids, sister, nephew, mother, etc...it is ALL ABOUT YOU!! Thank you for reading about my experience. Remember that every day is a journey...and a gift. Stick around and see what's in store for you!!

[saveyourself]

Congrats, Smart move flushing them down the toilet, even the one that had your name on it.  Not to take away from your victory, because it is real and YOU did not use. Read c-3, hellbent is right on the money.  His unique way of conveying truth so directly to the point reminds me of one of my best friends in the program of NA.  My freind and I have alot of history clean and he cut me loose when I started drinking, yet now that I am for real in being clean as he said, we are as tight as ever.  Freindships in recovery are real.  I kid you not, this guy would take a bullit for me as long as it wasn't a head shot or in a fatal area.

If there is one thing I know I need is real recovering people in my life. this board has been a God send to me, but it will not keep me clean or give back the happy, joyous and free life I had for 7 yrs.  It doesn't have to be NA, find a support group that you are comfortable with.
Finally, one of trhe reasons I quit NA in 97 was because I was heavily involved in my church. It worked for awhile and I am still very invoved in Calvary Chapel, speaking only for myself, I also need a program that deals with addiction.  I firmly believe every program is an extension of God helping those who can not help themselves. NA just happens to be the only thing that has worked for me.  I know of many who it has not. So get off your ass, get info from a treatment facility of the different types of support groups in your area. Humble yourself and go check them out.

FYI My fist year clean, every night I would pray for God to send me a blue eyed blond woman in recovery that I could spend the rest of my life with and to let me have some joy in my life. One year, four months later I met my future wife, a blue eyed,gorgous blond named Joy.  We have been married 13 years This is a true story.
Strength and Honor
Greg

[lisabet]

Wow - what a compelling post! Thanks for sharing your experience. This is a great forum with lots of supportive people; welcome. You sound like you're doing great in your recovery. Congratulations, and keep posting. Posts like yours show others it's possible to live a "normal" life after addiction.  Good for you.  Peace/Love, Lisabet

[pon]

Farabell...beautiful post and congratulations it sounds as though you are doing great!  You're method is similar to mine (re cravings)I look at my beautiful daughters, go to the barn to see my horses, work extra hard at my job....all things that let me focus on what I would be destroying if I gave in.

Keep posting...there is a lot of help here and you seem to have a lot to give too

prayers

pon

[Rex1]

That is the kind thing we need here, hope for the rest of us.

Keep posting...

Rex

[Rex1]

Just wanted to say thanks for your post above. It was of tremendous help to me. I hope I can return the favor one day.

Rex

[Witchywoman]

Rex, you are such an inspiration! You remind me of where I was at, exactly, when I was at a month or so clean.  I've got a year and a half clean now, so you can do it.  The cravings got pretty bad around the 6 months point, but I learned to differentiate cravings from true pain. Close to a year, I had 6 vics in my hand and almost took them, but got on here and posted instead, and flushed them. Even those who I had been in conflict here came to my rescue, putting the care of one addict to another as more important than any interpersonal problems we may have had. It was incredible how loving folks here were, and have been to me.

During my clean time, there have been a very few occassions when I did need to take narcotics for medically necessary reasons. Two of those where in the Emergency Room.  A few months ago, my back went out on me so bad (I had surgery two years ago on two discs) that hubbie dragged me to the ER. My Doc convinced me to go on oxy. I took it as prescribed for a week, got sick as a dog, hated it, and stopped, as I honestly now prefer to deal with pain than to ever walk down the hell of addiction.  I had no withdrawals at all then.  Everyone I've asked says that that does not break my clean time, as I was not abusing the meds or trying to get high.  A very few times since, I have taken one pain med when the back pain has been excruciting (my rule is anything over an 8...I can handle pain up to an 8 with advil or nothing, and am usually at a 6 or 7). My husband has the pills hidden, per my request.  I honestly have no desire for them now. I don't know if that will stay that way. But I would rather have the pain than be a slave to a pill, and I can remember a time when I would never even consider giving up my precious pills. They had me in their grip. Ask anyone here who knew me when I first started to post...Thomas, remember me then? lol I was so whacked out.

My Doc wants me to get more surgery, but I'm declining.  I am pretty sure it would just make me worse and re-addict me. No thanks.

Hang in there Rex, you are an inspiration to me and many others. I need to hear stories of early recovery to help me stay clean, and I need to offer my story and help others as part of staying clean as well.

love and light,
WW

[Rex1]

Thank you so very much for that information.  That's what I need to hear, and I think others need to hear.

I also hope that with that much time under my belt, I will still be here helping others like you, hippee, Thomas and the rest.

Rex

[lifeisbetter]

I can't believe you asked the question about that book.  My best friend is struggling now with opiate withdrawel and just started reading it.  I saw it on Amamzon.com and sent it to her. She's a Christian and unfortunately, thinks she is still not in the same dire straights as "those people in NA". Should I encourage her to read it more? What is it about? When you say the author has an office close by do you mean he works with addicts too?

[mrmichael67]

One word of caution with Revia:  Naltrexone is an antagonist to ALL opiates.....endorphins included.  That means that if your body starts to produce its own endorphins, they won't work while you are on naltrexone.  Naltrexone is an excellent SHORT TERM treatment to get one over the hump.  Over time, one has to learn other ways to stay clean.  Endorphins are what all opioid detoxing people crave for.  That is what eventually starts to make one feel better.....when the body starts to produce them again.  For all of the time a person has been consuming opioids, the body has shut down production of endorphins because they weren't needed....the opioids were taking their place.  One person that was here this past summer always felt like he was in a fog, until it was just about time for his pellet replacement.  Then, he started to feel good about halfway through the last week.  When he had the pellet replaced, back into the fog.  He was on it long term and when the pellet was wearing off, it wasn't blocking the endorphins anymore and he started to feel better.  Just a little food for thought.  Naltrexone is excellent for the short term.

[lifeisbetter]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to what everyone else has said.  In my experience the cravings significantly dropped off at about 6 weeks.  The thing I found to be most difficult was and still is occasionally,  the cravings that come from "out of the blue".  It seems to hit suddenly for no reason.  I can tell you that the longer I stay clean the shorter the period of intense craving is. It used to last 5-10 mins. now its only 30 seconds or so and maybe once a month. I think its a conditioned response.  Every time we say no its as if we're kicking our disease while its already down. When we say no we keep it a little less virulent. The sad part is we can never kill it. We can't be fooled into thinking that it has ever gone away.  As weird as this may sound I'm gonna say it anyway...be grateful for the cravings because they are constant reminders that we are addicts. It's so easy for us to forget that. At least it is for me. Have you ever heard about the relapse before the relapse? In reality we don't relapse "out of the blue for no reason" like we think.  It actually happens when we mentally remember all the good things that happened when we first used our drug to get "happy". It is so easy to forget that at the end of our using it is only to feel normal and even if we get that state of euphoria we want so badly it only ends up lasting for 15 mins and then we want more. In reality its a perpetual state of frustration for me.  My best advice is when a craving hits, immediately think it through. (which it sounds like you've been doing and probably why your still clean today your right 1 pill equals 12 pills.) Also continue with that thought and ask yourself "what will happen if I take the 12 pills?" Then visualize where you were and what you were doing 24 hours before your last detox. Try to focus only on the pain, degradation and humiliation you were feeling. To complete the attack on your craving you must get grateful. Pray and ask God to show you what to be grateful for today. A grateful addict can not use. Good luck, you don't realize how great your doing! Your in a danger zone though so you have to be extra vigilant for the next few monthes. Just please believe me life does get much better!

[johnbrownsbody]

I've been looking at  this forum for a while now and only now I've found the courage to join in what you guys have been talking about.  Now though I really feel like I must.

I had been addicted to heroin for nearly ten years.  In November I found the will (and the money) to make the decision to take what seemed like a sure route away from my addiction.  After detoxing, I was given a three month naltrexone implant.  I have been feeling like ****, physically and mentally, although I have been hoping that  this will eventually go.  

Are you telling me that this is going to get worse? After what you've said, I feel like that this hell that I'm going through could be finished if I could get the implant out.  Do you think I should get rid of the implant and try and stay clean just through willpower?

As a newcomer tyo the board can anyone else give advice on this? I am feeling so confused and lost I don't know where the hell I am, every day is like groundhog day.

[Witchywoman]

Welcome, I'm glad you joined in.

I wish I could answer the question with surety, but I can only say that I suspect you are right.  Three months clean should have you feeling normal again, for most addicts, depending on how much you were using.  It may be that the implant is keeping your own natural endorphins from kicking in again.

Have you asked your Doc? Definately give it a lot of research.

If you do take it out...make a good strong plan for recovery support in staying clean, 'cause that is harder than getting clean.

welcome again,
WW

ps I'll probably be away from posting till next week, still no home computer, so take care everyone and I'll "see" y'all next week.

[teeitup]

Congratulations on deciding to quit! Log on to this site as often as possible. Read every post and make comments when you feel comfortable. This site is the best therapy you will ever find, listen to everyones suggestions and decide what you feel most comfortable with. I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong just as long as your trying to kick the habit, what ever works for you. There's no easy out from any addiction. Suck it up, stay strong and let this forum give you support. You'll do it!

teeitup!

[hippy]

hey there hope you are well, and doing good.
as far as the book i mentioned for rex--
addictions / a banquet in the grave
by edward t. welch
yes the the author mr welch has an office on
church road in cheltenham pa right out side of philly.
he is very religious and see's addicts, he beleives
all adictions are just sin.hr does not beleive in the disease concept. this book and others y him are very interesting,
tho i do notagree with him on everything he writes.
i find most of his book very interesting and most informative.
i have read many books on addiction from bradshaw to bill wilson.
i beleive in the disease of addiction for lack of a better term.
i  and many addicts i have known were raised in strict religious
households, religion is at the root of the problem for many addicts, one of the natures of addicts is rebellion.
amongst others.in my experence with my self and others
i have found it benaficial to put our religion on the back burner
in early recovery, but prayer and spiritualty  are very
powerful tools in early recovery and on going recovery.
i liken addicts just getting clean amd jumping into a very religious way of life  , to taht of a person getting into a boxing ring with out any trainig, they ashally get there but
kicked and get beaten unmercerfully.
we uashally do this job to ourselves.
in the 12 step programs they have a second step that ask' us to  come to beleive that a higher power can restore us to sanity.
this step infers that we are insane, and taking 20 or thrity perc's a day is insane. amongst other things.
i have found many religious people in early recovery pass this concept by, because they think they already beleive.
getting better from addiction starts with finding out what the problem is , and one of our biggest problems is we paly god
bt useing grugs to controll and minipulate our feelings and moods and lives.most addicts take one good look at god when they
are a kid and are afraid that god is not going to take care of them , so we start on the path of taking care of ourselves.
by useing what ever it takes, fear is a lck of faith.
for myself as an addict i lost my faith probley around 10 or 11 years old and sought a life of instant gratification through drugs , sex , money looking back it seem like if someone did ni\ot have one of these three things to offer me we did not have a relationship. these three things are what all my relationships were based on,
the frist step in the 12 step prograns is about getting lean and acceppting these ugly truths about myself,  and when i thought i had a problem with god , i really only had a problem wiyh myself
because i was my own god.
even when i finally got clean , life was like a football game
and i was the starting quaterback of my team still and god sat on the bench playing second string and every game i would be loseing 44 to nothing in the fourth quater and i would still
be reluctant to bring god into the game , some games he never got off the bench, but when i would have a moment of sanity i would let god in the game down by 4o points in the fourth quater agian , and god would always come in and win the game every time.
but evertime a new game would start there was god on the bench
and me out there throwing interceptions down by fouty points agian.

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hippy

[suzieneedshelp]

Your post way above was so inspirational!  You are such a gift to us all!
Love,
Suzie

[hippy]

thanks suz,
everythig i wrot is things i learned from other addicts
over the years, they passed to me and i try to pass it on,
i am aware that some of us on this fourm have to take meds
and being clean is not an option for them .
i give a o lot of credit to people in these situations.
learning how to take nessaceary med s takes a very mature person.
and for all those that are trying to stay clean they also
are to be commended , they will be able to chang e the world.
we all here in our own ways are making the world a better place.
just thiking of all the lives that are affected in poitive ways is amazing.
i think our children benifit the most.

peace !!!!!!!! suz have a good day and great new year darlin

[saveyourself]

Great post, hippee

I always liked the lines for the first 3 steps, I can't, he can, I think I will let Him.  Hope everyone is doing good.  It 's 3am, but hey got 4 hrs sleep in a row, finally. I am slowly feeling better, I had to even go to work today to settle a problem one of my project managers could not resolve.  I am just glad it was today and not lsast week,  I mean it when I say I can not function in WD.

I still got a long ways to go before I feel human again. I will just take it a day at a time and work a program to the best of my ability.  This relapse really took a heavey toll on my body, I have gone through WD over 50 times in the last 30 yrs, whoever said that as your number of withdrawls add up, they do become much more intense and last a lot longer, tommorw is day 21 and I figure it can only get better as long as I don't pick up.  It feels like 3 months has gone by, all of them painful, of course thats just the lunatic in my head, I will see you guys on the bright side of the moon.  With the exception of one word, who recognizes that line. Clue, it was from the 70s, no cell phones, home computers, lots hemi charged machines and every girl was nice.
I am sounding like my Dad and his old days.  Things just seemed a lot slower then,  all the technology I have and own is nice, But I am tired of the rush, rush rat race.  On that happy thought ,I am goig to try to get some sleep.
Strength and Honor

[mrmichael67]

Is it possible for you to go a month without the pellet?  You can always go back, but if going off of the pellet makes you feel better, then you are golden.  I can't remember the user name of the person for the life of me, but I do know that person would start to feel much better when it was time for the new pellet.....the old one was finished and his endorphins weren't being antagonized.  If I were you, I would try to experiment and go without for one month.  If it works, great.  If it doesn't, go back on it.  Anything to get rid of that feeling you are experiencing, right?  Well, you know what I mean.

[mrmichael67]

And, please keep us informed of what happens as that info would be very valuable.  If you can, e-mail me at ***@****.

[hippy]

i saw jhon browns body's question and i was hopeing
you would anwswer him, i did want to post smoething to him but i was afraid i might say something about which i know nothing
the pellet,

peace!!!!!!!

[mrmichael67]

I went back and read that you were on a three month pellet.  I was thinking you were on it for three months at one month intervals.  The person who was here previously had them replaced monthly.  It doesn't make a difference one way or the other.  Are you almost due for a new one?  If so, just don't get a new one and see how it goes.  Like I said, you can always get another one.  If I had one in me and I knew what I know now and by other evidence I have seen, I would get it out of me.  There isn't anything physically dangerous that is going to happen by doing it.  YOU have kept yourself clean these past three months.  After all that work, it is time to start reaping some rewards.

[disjointed]

Dear JBB,

I note that you seem to be getting slightly different advice from someone else on this board, but I wonder if you would consider the possibility that your worst danger is that of 'going back on the gear' rather than the discomfort and unhappiness which you attribute to your naltrexone?

I presume that you has some kind of psychological or medical assessment before having your implant.  If so, whoever supervised your assessment must have agreed that there was a risk that, without the naltrexone as an IMPLANT rather than in tablet form, you might succumb to temptation and one day 'forget' to take your pill, thus allowing you to weaken further and go out to find your dealer.

Are you sure that, behind your current feelings of 'depression', there doesn't lurk the fact that you now have to deal with real life, with all it's hard edges, disappointments and frightening choices, instead of the fake happiness inside an opiate cocoon which the drug used to give you?

Due to my upbringing and the people I mix with I am very close to many 'druggies' past & present - can I give you 3 examples to indicate the dangers you may face + the opportunity you may have.

1) The 27 year old daughter of a close friend of mine died at the end of November last year, with no apparent cause of death, leaving a lovely 8 year old daughter of her own.  My friend is still waiting for the cause of death to be established, due to the slowness of the pathology service in the British National Health Service.  But we are fairly certain what the result will be, given that she was an injecting heroin addict.

2) Another close friend, a woman of great determination, de-toxed herself from heroin a few years ago, and then discovered that she had hep C and is likely to have serious health problems into the future.

3) A third friend of mine is in his 3rd year of de-tox using naltrexone implants.  The implants have cost a lot of money but less than what the drug was costing him.  Even though he was very distressed at first and found coping with life without opiates in his system very hard, he is now becoming happier and more stable.

JBB, have a close look at your real motivations, then look at the life and health expectancy for heroin users.  Only then consider the advice that some may give you to abandon or even 'cut out' the implant which may be protecting you from returning to a habit that could so easily be yours again.

Best Wishes,

Disjointed

PS - So far as I know the theory that naltrexone itself, rather than the inability to access the 'pleasurable' sensations caused by heroin, methadone etc, causes depression has no firm scientific basis.

[johnbrownsbody]

Thanks to all of you who have given me kind advice and support.  I was just so confused after disjointed's comments. I found those sad stories so depressing.  I went to my great-aunt's house after reading disjointeds message, and stole her temazepam. I have only taken a few, with some whisky, now I don't know where I am, all I know is some of the pain has gone away.

I think maybe Mr Michael67 is right.  I think I will get rid of this implant.  I am just going to take temazepam and whisky instead to take the edge off.

As for you disjointed, your 'advice' was not in the least helpful - where were you when your friends died? Was this the kind of advice you were giving them before they died?

Peace
Johnbrownsbody

[begbie]

As addict or in your words "JUNKIE",I find your responce to jjb way out of line,it obvious this person is in the early stages of recovery so leave him alone with your horse **** advice.PS HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN IMPLANT? I think not.

[mrmichael67]

I never told anyone to "abandon" anything.  I said to try it for one time.  The effects should be almost intstant in the relative scheme of things....a few days to a week.  If it doesn't help at all, go back on it.  I think that would be an intelligent move.  I know what that black hole depression is like and who the hell wouldn't want to try what they had to try to alleviate it.  I know I would.  Of course, one would have to have other tools to help keep clean.  Go to a meeting every day if that is what it takes.  Three months is a long time to go.  One hell of an achievement.  Time to let your body start to work the way it is meant to.  I couldn't imagine waiting three years to feel good, or better actually, not necessarily good.  Like I have said, naltrexone is an excellent tool to get one over the hump.  It helps to get that precious time under one's belt.  But, it is intended for short term use.

[mrmichael67]

Some places offer the implant and that's it.  Some places don't leave it in the hands of the patient.  It has nothing to do with a mental evaluation or anything like that.  They just don't do it.

[disjointed]

Dear JBB,

I hope you are not feeling too groggy after taking your aunt's medication, and that the whisky hasn't left you with a bad hangover - also that stealing from a family member hasn't left you with too many bridges to repair.  

From my own history, I am aware of the destructive effect on trust between family members that the behavioural effects of addiction can have - when in many cases strong family ties are what's needed for helping someone climb out of the pit of drug abuse.  It can be a viscious circle.

JBB, in your ten years on heroin, would I be right in assuming that this is not your first de-tox attempt?  Could I go further and ask if you have not in fact tried several times before, using gradual withdrawal programmes & perhaps methadone?  Perhaps you have also been on a residential de-tox too?*

These programmes work very well for some people, however for others, even after the physical withdrawal has gone, they start using again because they find life very hard to deal with without the drug.  It can sometimes take a while, months or even a year or more, to find and learn new ways of relating to the world which bring equal rewards in reality to those false rewards which the opiate used to bring.  Until then, the possibility of just one impulsive urge to solve one of life's inevitable problems by having 'just one hit' can be a real danger.

I'm not suggesting that you stay on naltrexone for ever and a day; merely that when you do take the decision to come off it, it should be a considered decision, taking into account how deeply you have ingrained your new non-druggie thoughts and behaviour into your personality and lifestyle.

One last thing - for the depression which you feel and your impulsive behaviour, have you considered cognitive-behavioural therapy?  It has a good track record with these problems.  If you can't afford CBT there may be a useful self-CBT book for you which I could look up for you.

Best wishes, and I hope you're not in too much trouble with your aunt!

Disjointed

* If my hunch is right about your history, it's not because I am telepathic - it's just that ten years is a very long time to be on such a serious drug as heroin without a few attempted de-toxes, and also that a naltrexone IMPLANT is usually a very last resort in my experience.










Thanks to all of you who have given me kind advice and support. I was just so confused after disjointed's comments. I found those sad stories so depressing. I went to my great-aunt's house after reading disjointeds message, and stole her temazepam. I have only taken a few, with some whisky, now I don't know where I am, all I know is some of the pain has gone away.

I think maybe Mr Michael67 is right. I think I will get rid of this implant. I am just going to take temazepam and whisky instead to take the edge off.

As for you disjointed, your 'advice' was not in the least helpful - where were you when your friends died? Was this the kind of advice you were giving them before they died?

Peace
Johnbrownsbody

C54 begbie
(28-Dec-02)  disjointed As addict or in your words "JUNKIE",I find your responce to jjb way out of line,it obvious this person is in the early stages of recovery so leave him alone with your horse **** advice.PS HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN IMPLANT? I think not.

C55 mrmichael67
(28-Dec-02)  . I never told anyone to "abandon" anything. I said to try it for one time. The effects should be almost intstant in the relative scheme of things....a few days to a week. If it doesn't help at all, go back on it. I think that would be an intelligent move. I know what that black hole depression is like and who the hell wouldn't want to try what they had to try to alleviate it. I know I would. Of course, one would have to have other tools to help keep clean. Go to a meeting every day if that is what it takes. Three months is a long time to go. One hell of an achievement. Time to let your body start to work the way it is meant to. I couldn't imagine waiting three years to feel good, or better actually, not necessarily good. Like I have said, naltrexone is an excellent tool to get one over the hump. It helps to get that precious time under one's belt. But, it is intended for short term use.

[disjointed]

Oops!

Sorry for re-posting other people's posts underneath my own comments, in the above post.

What I'm saying finishes under the PS paragraph.

Apologies for any confusion & infringement of copyright!


Disjointed

[johnbrownsbody]

Hi hippee and thanks

I'd like some fictions books if you recommmend that that could maybe take my mind off things.  you seem to be one of the most sensitive and wise people on the message board here along with many others.  I am so pleased that you've taken the time to get back to me.

do you also have any ideas about my diet or vitamins that could help through this difficult time?

peace, angel on your shoulder
Johnbrownsbody

ps. this forum is really helping me now.

[disjointed]

Hi JBB,

Firstly, there is no need for you to apologise - It's natural that emotions get raised on such a difficult & personal subject!

I am glad that you stealing your aunt's pills hasn't caused you too many problems - but I do hope that you are thinking about how to relate to your family in a way that encourages them to give you the best support for you in your mission to leave the opiates behind you.

As for books - for dark, scary and very funny entertainment I would definitely recommend 'A Scanner Darkly' by Philip K. ****.  For self-help I would suggest 'Overcoming Depression' by Paul Gilbert - a very practical & educational text from a cognitive-behavioural viewpoint.  I don't know if it's available in bookshops outside the UK, but you should be able to get it direct from the publishers, whose web address is

www.constablerobinson.com

Also I recommend listening to Johnny Cash records when in need of emotional strength to deal with some of the shitty things which life hands out to you!

All the best,

Disjointed

[hippy]

hey john, how go's it
i hope fine, yes reading helps pass the time when getting off the pills, it is a healthy distraction.
some books i have read and recomend.
1- A CONSPIRACY OF PAPER, BY david liss
2-THE GENESIS CODE, BY john case
3-THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW, by alan folsome
4- THE ALIENIST, by caleb carr
5- ENDER'S GAME ,by orson scott card
6-COMPLETE VAMPIRE CHRONICLES , by anne rice
7- THE DAMNATION GAME , by clive barker.

as far as vitamine go, some people say that they do nothing
but that is not my experence.
what has wrked for me foe pain is a minaral called MSM
IT WORKED WONDER FOR ME. for back and joint pain.
also 5htp has helped me with depression.

and last but not least , i have had wonderfull results with
the thomas's receipe, and the L-tyrosine 500 mg 4 a day all at once in the morning along with b-6 100 mg. two of them.


peace.,

[hyjack]

I was also here when Mr. Michael refers to this person who was on the implant.

I would like to add some food for thought that I've just discovered.

I've started taking L-tyrosine, and what a difference it has made for me.  During the day I usually get the "blahs", almost like a lethargic depression.  But since I've started taking it, those feelings have subsided, and feel more energy.  

I was told that it could have adverse effects if you have a heart condition, but since I do not, I tried it without a doctor's order.  I am so glad I did.

For people that are weaning or detoxing, it is definitely worth a try!

[johnbrownsbody]

Thanks to you all

Happy new year

Peace
Johnbrownsbody

[leadchest]

i have been detoxing from opiates several times.

i have always found the third day the hardest to stay clean.

for me its been really hard for those last three months, but its the longest ive gone without since '98.

THE CRAVINGS WILL BE LESS if you dare to stay honest with yourself and remember that

WE HAVE THE CHOICE between back into or slowly creeping on without.

TRY HERBAL TEAS before sleeping, nature has many cures, the pills that there is so much talk about in this forum seem to me to be so close to the drugs, already in their shape.

herbal teas like LINDEN BLOSSOMS or however you call them in english help you sweat out the stuff and go to sleep better.

and i believe my gem-stones help me so much. Amethyst and Dumortierite for example help me hang into it and enjoy what i have got.

keep your minds open. god helps me , or lets put it this way,
since i try to go WITH the FLOW it keeps taking me with it faster.

you are strong, i know that you are.  
love and peace, rob.