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Does Percocet and Morphine work for Hydrocodone wd?
Hey! Well as alot of you know, I am going to start on Sub on the 1st **4 more days!!**. Well, my issue was this. I only took my LAST 4 Norco this morning, and by 3pm, I was feeling wd's. As you all know, Im WAY used to more then that amount by 3pm. Well what i did, instead of doing something stupid like calling in my own script, I went to the ER for the first time, and told them I had really bad pain from a slip and fall. Well they gave me a shot with 5mgs of Morphine and sent me home on Percocets. I only got 15 percocets and thats all I wanted. I dont want anything more then that cuz like I said,l am going to my Sub doc on the 1st. I just didnt want to be "sick" till the 1st, so as addicts, you all know how I feel...so I went. Well, I still dont feel 100% for some reason. Im not yawning like crazy or ancious, but i REALLY thought i would feel better then this...I dont know..maybe its in my head cuz I know its not Hydrocodone...I dont know. If you can let me know, that would be great!
i DO take FULL responsibility...i am not blaming my addiction, but my addiction sure did play a role in my actions...but i am now aware of my actions as before i didnt give a rats a s s, as long as i had my DOC was all that mattered because i was so consumed and sick with the disease of addiction.
now i will deal with the consequences of my actions...it doesnt happen while your still living it...and i think admitting it is taking responsibility or it could have just never been brought up and swept under the carpet...addiction plays a HUGE role in our behaviors and that is just what needs to be changed in all of us who are addicts...and i was proud that i was able to once again fool the doctors into giving me a prescription...thats all i wanted, and when i got it..i thought i was just the best of the cons around, well being an addict is now the consequences of my actions that i will now have to fight for the rest of my life...dont say i dont take responsibility of my actions...i most definately do...
now i will deal with the consequences of my actions...it doesnt happen while your still living it...and i think admitting it is taking responsibility or it could have just never been brought up and swept under the carpet...addiction plays a HUGE role in our behaviors and that is just what needs to be changed in all of us who are addicts...and i was proud that i was able to once again fool the doctors into giving me a prescription...thats all i wanted, and when i got it..i thought i was just the best of the cons around, well being an addict is now the consequences of my actions that i will now have to fight for the rest of my life...dont say i dont take responsibility of my actions...i most definately do...
Yes we have but this dude did it and seemed like it was ok or was proud of it. I've done it but knew it was dead wrong to fake at the ER. The attitude you have won't help you much to recover weather it's sub or cold turkey. We can't blame everything on the disease and need to take responsibility for our actions.
"Judge not lest ye be judged" nuff said. Bravo to EVERYone here who has chosen to keep trying- each in his or her own way. Destination is the same- paths may be different... God speed!
Almost evryone here has fudged at least once with a doctor..and i apologize to the few who have not..it is part of the disease...i know i have...i have hooked up with some pretty low life characters to get my doc...and i am a chronic pain patient whose tolerence got so high that i could not get them the legal way...I admit it and will let it go...it is in the past...it was that other personality who lives inside me that did all that tho LOL...i call her Addicia ...not fuuny but for those of u who have never abused drugs who are chronic pain patients and always took them "just" for pain and not for the buzz...never not once...i want to commend you...you are a better person than i...going to ers and lying to doctors and calling in scripts and buying off the street is all part of the web we weave for ourselves.......we are clean now...thank G
well sorry to say...i am an addict...i have gone to ER's to get pain meds for my addiction, numerous times yes, i have legit pain...and i used that to get meds...its called addiction at its worst..i guess some are just lucky they havent reached that desperate point yet in their lives...
and to say thats a horrible thing for an addict to do...well i just hope you never get to that part of the desperation of addiction...i also bought off the streets, and i stole from anyone who had them who wasnt aware of what they had, and when i couldnt get them anywhere else i went to the ER after 2-3 days of withdrawals...thats what you call addiction...not dependence...there is a very fine line between the 2, and addiction is not just taking addictive drugs...it also includes dangerous, selfish behavior and getting my DOC anyway i could....that is addiction at its finest...uncontrollable behavior with no thought of consequences...which is what i am fixing because sub has allowed me to do that...i dont know of too many addicts that didnt abuse the system at some point or another...sorry to say...and i dont believe for minute because me as an addict looking for drugs, even though i DO have legit pain made it difficult for someone else to get their meds...usually chronic pain patients have long standing prescriptions...and addicts are usually flagged at ER's...so doctors really arent that stupid...
and to say thats a horrible thing for an addict to do...well i just hope you never get to that part of the desperation of addiction...i also bought off the streets, and i stole from anyone who had them who wasnt aware of what they had, and when i couldnt get them anywhere else i went to the ER after 2-3 days of withdrawals...thats what you call addiction...not dependence...there is a very fine line between the 2, and addiction is not just taking addictive drugs...it also includes dangerous, selfish behavior and getting my DOC anyway i could....that is addiction at its finest...uncontrollable behavior with no thought of consequences...which is what i am fixing because sub has allowed me to do that...i dont know of too many addicts that didnt abuse the system at some point or another...sorry to say...and i dont believe for minute because me as an addict looking for drugs, even though i DO have legit pain made it difficult for someone else to get their meds...usually chronic pain patients have long standing prescriptions...and addicts are usually flagged at ER's...so doctors really arent that stupid...
"The Suboxone website might say the withdrawal is not as severe, but I say differently."
If you pay attention to people that have properly tapered off of Suboxone (down to fractions of a milligram), a good amount say it was bearable. A good amount say they experienced hardly any *physical* withdrawal at all. If you pay attention to people that jumped off early at some point, assumed that all there is to beating addiction is making it through acute withdrawal, etc... they say it was horrible and just another drug. But with a half-life of that length and still being an opioid - what else could you expect? People like 'cocobeanlisa' have beaten addiction while using Subutex as a tool in their recovery - I can't even begin to express how big of an accomplishment that is and it shouldn't be discounted in the least.
And there is a difference between a full and partial agonist when it comes to withdrawal and restoring full homeostasis when the opiate is discontinued. It's not just a selling point for the product. With a partial agonist, some receptors have stayed active to naturally produced endorphins. Which means the brain is one step ahead at restoring homeostasis compared to someone withdrawing from a full agonist opioid. But like it's stated, with a half-life of 36 hours - cold turkey withdrawal (or just too fast of a taper) is going to result in extended physical withdrawal. So a long taper is a solution that it seems a lot (not all) of people can stand. It's not just because some doctor wants to milk a patient out of money for longer.
And I agree, the point of being on Suboxone is to allow a person to break the addiction cycle (the downward spiral) that swallows people and their lives. To let them make long-term changes in their life that will allow them to survive without resorting back to abuse and the resulting loss of control. If only more people were brave enough to do this - there would be many more success stories here and many less relapse stories! The emphasis should *not* be on just the physical acute withdrawal - yet that is what I see people talking about the most. Perhaps not ironically, especially people that have been through the withdrawal cycle multiple times from multiple drugs.
If you pay attention to people that have properly tapered off of Suboxone (down to fractions of a milligram), a good amount say it was bearable. A good amount say they experienced hardly any *physical* withdrawal at all. If you pay attention to people that jumped off early at some point, assumed that all there is to beating addiction is making it through acute withdrawal, etc... they say it was horrible and just another drug. But with a half-life of that length and still being an opioid - what else could you expect? People like 'cocobeanlisa' have beaten addiction while using Subutex as a tool in their recovery - I can't even begin to express how big of an accomplishment that is and it shouldn't be discounted in the least.
And there is a difference between a full and partial agonist when it comes to withdrawal and restoring full homeostasis when the opiate is discontinued. It's not just a selling point for the product. With a partial agonist, some receptors have stayed active to naturally produced endorphins. Which means the brain is one step ahead at restoring homeostasis compared to someone withdrawing from a full agonist opioid. But like it's stated, with a half-life of 36 hours - cold turkey withdrawal (or just too fast of a taper) is going to result in extended physical withdrawal. So a long taper is a solution that it seems a lot (not all) of people can stand. It's not just because some doctor wants to milk a patient out of money for longer.
And I agree, the point of being on Suboxone is to allow a person to break the addiction cycle (the downward spiral) that swallows people and their lives. To let them make long-term changes in their life that will allow them to survive without resorting back to abuse and the resulting loss of control. If only more people were brave enough to do this - there would be many more success stories here and many less relapse stories! The emphasis should *not* be on just the physical acute withdrawal - yet that is what I see people talking about the most. Perhaps not ironically, especially people that have been through the withdrawal cycle multiple times from multiple drugs.
You seem to be under the impression that because you are an addict, it gives you the right to lie and basically get by with anything. Even though I have been addicted and/or physically dependent on opiates for close to 20 years now, I have NEVER went to the ER faking pain to get my meds and have NEVER called in my own script. I have just had to suffer the few times I ran out of my meds early, and I do mean that I SUFFERED. I agree with some of the other posters - I will be surprised if the Sub thing works for you - I don't think you are ready yet to give up your "high". Since lying is so easy for you, I hope you are at least honest with your Sub doctor tomorrow.
I'm not sure I'm clear on your point, pdiddy. First, you talk about legitimate pain and ER's duty to honor that; and then you talk about going in because you're an addict. I'm not making a judgment, it just seems to be contradictory.
Well I did go to the ER because I didnt want to call in a FAKE script!! NOT because I didnt want to get a "refill". I believe that if you go to the ER with legit pain, I dont care if 10 addicts walked in before you, you will get treated the same as if those 10 people didnt walk in!! If you have legit pain, that could be seen on X Ray, or MRI...I really doubt they are gonna take away anything you need because i was there before you!! For cryin out loud!! IM AN ADDICT!! I was freakin out cuz I was out of my pills and didnt know what to do!! I up'ed my Sub appt but I couldnt get in till today...that was my only "legal" option at that time. I thought I had 4 days to go till my appt. Just wanted to get that off my chest...
I think it's prudent to use caution when making opiate addiction into some kind of contest: "your drug is NOTHING compared to my drug". Sure, there is a certain logic to the statement, but the BIGGER picture has to do with addiction and the mindset of an addict. The more I think about it - and the more Iook at statistics such as Wait2long mentioned, the more I think that Subs are the way to go for me. I've relapsed not long ago, and I'm not really interested in earning any "street cred" by going cold turkey - I'd just like an effective means to allow me to work on what's underneath my addiction - and if Subs allow me to do that effectively, then so be it. Vicodin addiction can be HARDCORE, and just because it's not as powerful as Oxy, etc. ... it is STILL a vehicle to escape the pain all of us addicts try to run from. Just my two cents ...
I just wanted to comment on the fact that the OP went to the ER for meds when she didn't legitimately need it...because of addicts abusing the ER to get their fix it ruins it for people who really need it.
Ya see I'm a chronic pain patient and it has been hell to get the meds I need in order for my pain not to get so severe that the only way it goes away is to go to the hospital and be admitted for pain management.
I do understand the addict personality because I am one myself and if I allow myself I could get into real trouble with the pain meds again...I try to take what I need and not what I want. And believe me it's hard and I don't always succeed. But I also know how I feel when I don't have the meds and it's awhile till the next refill. That's more hell for me than going through the w/ds.
I am not trying to be "holier than thou"....I have seen both sides but it really upsets me that no one is upset that the OP went to the ER instead of calling in her script. Again, it hurts the ones who truly need it....
Ya see I'm a chronic pain patient and it has been hell to get the meds I need in order for my pain not to get so severe that the only way it goes away is to go to the hospital and be admitted for pain management.
I do understand the addict personality because I am one myself and if I allow myself I could get into real trouble with the pain meds again...I try to take what I need and not what I want. And believe me it's hard and I don't always succeed. But I also know how I feel when I don't have the meds and it's awhile till the next refill. That's more hell for me than going through the w/ds.
I am not trying to be "holier than thou"....I have seen both sides but it really upsets me that no one is upset that the OP went to the ER instead of calling in her script. Again, it hurts the ones who truly need it....
500mg of hydrocodone a day is one serious habit, cocobean. That's also 17,000 mg of APAP a day! I suppose with something this serious Suboxone can be considered--because thats the equivalent of probably 300-400mg of Oxy a day, which is Suboxone worthy for sure. Have you had tests to make sure your liver is okay?
It works for some and not so well for others. In most cases, not all cases, there are no drug solutions to drug problems. It seems like it works better when it isn't used for that long. Beware of docs trying to milk those charges out of you.
Okay,
I ave read all of this s**t and I am very worried that alot of you
do not know how the subx doctors work...
I was on 40/50 Norcos' 10/325 a day and the doc started me at 8mg
of suboxone fo rthe 1st week, than he lowered the dose by 1mg every
week. At the end I was taking 1/5 mg every other day and just stopped.
I had no withdrawls and was not on subx for a long time...AND AS IT WAS MENTIONED.....While I was on the SUBX it allowed me to concentrate on MEETINGS and getting a sponsor. It allowed me to
put together a program for recovery and I have been clean over a year.
THE AMOUNT OF NORCOS I WAS TAKING when I first stopped C/T
I got so sick that I almost died from dehydration (diarreha) I was rushed to the ER....YES you can die form detox from Hydros,
ANY WAY THAT"S MY STORY AND I AM STICKING TO IT.
THANK GOD FOR SUBX IT ALLOWED ME TO GET CLEAN AND STAY CLEAN
I ave read all of this s**t and I am very worried that alot of you
do not know how the subx doctors work...
I was on 40/50 Norcos' 10/325 a day and the doc started me at 8mg
of suboxone fo rthe 1st week, than he lowered the dose by 1mg every
week. At the end I was taking 1/5 mg every other day and just stopped.
I had no withdrawls and was not on subx for a long time...AND AS IT WAS MENTIONED.....While I was on the SUBX it allowed me to concentrate on MEETINGS and getting a sponsor. It allowed me to
put together a program for recovery and I have been clean over a year.
THE AMOUNT OF NORCOS I WAS TAKING when I first stopped C/T
I got so sick that I almost died from dehydration (diarreha) I was rushed to the ER....YES you can die form detox from Hydros,
ANY WAY THAT"S MY STORY AND I AM STICKING TO IT.
THANK GOD FOR SUBX IT ALLOWED ME TO GET CLEAN AND STAY CLEAN
The Suboxone website might say the withdrawal is not as severe, but I say differently.
This entire thread seems to be all over the place.
Subuxone/Subutex withdrawal is living hell if you stay on it long term. I don't care what anyone says. I was on it for about 6 months, give or take, and the worst of the withdrawals lasted 3 weeks.
And for the record, I abused Norcos, which is the same as percs, vics, heroin, etc, etc. They are ALL OPIATES. Just different strengths.
And that really is the bottom line.
Suboxone is a great tool for you to curb your cravings, and make the adjustments in your life you need to be clean. Just don't think withdrawals will be a cake walk.
This entire thread seems to be all over the place.
Subuxone/Subutex withdrawal is living hell if you stay on it long term. I don't care what anyone says. I was on it for about 6 months, give or take, and the worst of the withdrawals lasted 3 weeks.
And for the record, I abused Norcos, which is the same as percs, vics, heroin, etc, etc. They are ALL OPIATES. Just different strengths.
And that really is the bottom line.
Suboxone is a great tool for you to curb your cravings, and make the adjustments in your life you need to be clean. Just don't think withdrawals will be a cake walk.
i agree with you to a point...if someone takes suboxone and thats all they do because they think thats all is required then YES, i agree, but if you really do everything that is necessary to change EVERYTHING that is related to your now addictive lifestyle, then it can be a good alternative , especially when someone has repeatedly relapsed...just stopping the use of drugs is not the only step that should be taken...it requires a total life change...and some fail at this step because of the constant withdrawals, PAWS and just not being able to accomplish any changes because of feeling so bad, so they end up back at square 1...thats a fact in a lot, not all, but a lot of cases.
sub gives the person who really wants to quit the ability to change everything and prepare for the road that lies ahead of them...which can be a never ending battle...
sub is NOT a solution, it is a tool to be used properly and in conjunction with a lot of major changes that have to be made...some (like me) just couldnt do it alone...i needed help and time to accomplish all of this and all of my core issues. if not for sub, i am sure i would still be going back to square 1...methadone is a b i t c h to get off, i am sure you know this from your own experience...i couldnt do it. call me weak or say i'm looking for the easy way out?...but i am doing it...bit by bit i am accomplishing what i have truly wanted and needed for some time now...
its not as easy as everyone thinks with sub, its a lot of work...
and i can attest to the difference between sub and meth...no way are they similar...halflife only...
so regardless, i DO see your point...
have a great day!
W2L
sub gives the person who really wants to quit the ability to change everything and prepare for the road that lies ahead of them...which can be a never ending battle...
sub is NOT a solution, it is a tool to be used properly and in conjunction with a lot of major changes that have to be made...some (like me) just couldnt do it alone...i needed help and time to accomplish all of this and all of my core issues. if not for sub, i am sure i would still be going back to square 1...methadone is a b i t c h to get off, i am sure you know this from your own experience...i couldnt do it. call me weak or say i'm looking for the easy way out?...but i am doing it...bit by bit i am accomplishing what i have truly wanted and needed for some time now...
its not as easy as everyone thinks with sub, its a lot of work...
and i can attest to the difference between sub and meth...no way are they similar...halflife only...
so regardless, i DO see your point...
have a great day!
W2L
I think you are trying to convince us and yourself that this is a good step for you. It's nice to be nice but I have to say how I really feel speaking from 35 years addictive history with heroin, hydo. methadone etc. Sometimes, such as with long term addiction or methadone, it could be a good step to take sub but I don't think so for hydro pain pills, in most cases. The main problem I see with this forum is that we are looking for DRUG SOLUTIONS FOR OUT DRUG PROBLEMS. All the best
sorry about the wrong facts. I was a methadone/ everything else user and got really sick one time
i got those statistics from my friends doctor...i will as her where she got them when i talk to her...
and subs alone dont change your life NO! but they allow you the time to get your **** together and prepare for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING...long term sub treatment allows the time of feeling NORMAL not a more potent and steady high AT ALL! NOT 1 BIT! especially when misused! obviously you know nothing about sub or you wouldnt even be implying that...and i resent that comment!! i have not been high in almost 11 months...i went from methadone to suboxone...DO NOT compare the 2, they are NOTHING alike!
and i bet MOST people you knew didnt work the whole treatment program, didnt do therapy didnt do what is required to change their life and do a slow taper...let me guess, they jumped off at 2 mgs? or they were only on it short term to simply avoid withdrawals with no after care...? too many possibilities as to why they had issues or failed...and weekend warrior syndrome- used as a fill in, which means they didnt want to quit to begin with.
AND BY THE WAY, YOU DONT HAVE TO BE OFF NORCOS FOR 48 HOURS...12-18 IS WHAT IS USUALLY RECOMMENDED...UNLESS YOUR TRANSITIONING OFF METHADONE.
and subs alone dont change your life NO! but they allow you the time to get your **** together and prepare for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING...long term sub treatment allows the time of feeling NORMAL not a more potent and steady high AT ALL! NOT 1 BIT! especially when misused! obviously you know nothing about sub or you wouldnt even be implying that...and i resent that comment!! i have not been high in almost 11 months...i went from methadone to suboxone...DO NOT compare the 2, they are NOTHING alike!
and i bet MOST people you knew didnt work the whole treatment program, didnt do therapy didnt do what is required to change their life and do a slow taper...let me guess, they jumped off at 2 mgs? or they were only on it short term to simply avoid withdrawals with no after care...? too many possibilities as to why they had issues or failed...and weekend warrior syndrome- used as a fill in, which means they didnt want to quit to begin with.
AND BY THE WAY, YOU DONT HAVE TO BE OFF NORCOS FOR 48 HOURS...12-18 IS WHAT IS USUALLY RECOMMENDED...UNLESS YOUR TRANSITIONING OFF METHADONE.
I think people are missing the point here about Suboxone.
It's not all about the physical withdrawal.
Suboxone management allows a person to begin to change their addictive behavior. This does address the most important part of addiction: the behavioral aspect. This is an advantage over methadone. Suboxone severely limits addictive behaviors in a couple of ways:
1. If Suboxone is not taken properly (sublingually), the naloxone is absorbed (or possibly injected) and acts as a competitive antagonist on the opioid receptors... blocking out any high and likely causing acute withdrawal symptoms. This prevents 'high' seeking behaviors such as snorting, crushing, injecting or taking too much. In other words, it is extremely difficult to *abuse* this drug to get high. Yes, a person retains *dependence* on an opioid. But the differences are a world apart between dependence and addiction.
2. As a partial opioid agonist, physical withdrawal is not as severe as methadone or most other opiates. That's not to say it's going to be easy though - this is counter-acted by the fact that Suboxone has a half-life of about 36 hours. Oxycodone has a half-life of about 4 hours for comparison. So a long taper from Suboxone is the best route.
It's not all about the physical withdrawal.
Suboxone management allows a person to begin to change their addictive behavior. This does address the most important part of addiction: the behavioral aspect. This is an advantage over methadone. Suboxone severely limits addictive behaviors in a couple of ways:
1. If Suboxone is not taken properly (sublingually), the naloxone is absorbed (or possibly injected) and acts as a competitive antagonist on the opioid receptors... blocking out any high and likely causing acute withdrawal symptoms. This prevents 'high' seeking behaviors such as snorting, crushing, injecting or taking too much. In other words, it is extremely difficult to *abuse* this drug to get high. Yes, a person retains *dependence* on an opioid. But the differences are a world apart between dependence and addiction.
2. As a partial opioid agonist, physical withdrawal is not as severe as methadone or most other opiates. That's not to say it's going to be easy though - this is counter-acted by the fact that Suboxone has a half-life of about 36 hours. Oxycodone has a half-life of about 4 hours for comparison. So a long taper from Suboxone is the best route.
This is a quality of life issue. If you can not be happy totally clean and sober go for the sub. But at least try kicking the norcos and staying clean for 120 days. Kicking is bad but its not that bad and norcos are easy to kick compared to other stuff. I was a fentanyl addict, hard core stuff. So i understand the pain of withdrawls. I went to detox. They used medications to get me off but I never went on the subs. And taperd me off meds after 7 days. subs wont change your life. all they will do is give you a more potent and steady high. For me I was not happy on substances even methadone because they disconnected me from my higher power. Most people who i know use subuxone and subutex dont stay clean and sober for long they stop taking their subs and only take them when their out.
BY THE WAY YOU WILL GET REAL ******* SICK IF YOU DONT STOP TAKING ALL OPIATES(NORCOS) 48 HOURS BEFORE YOU TAKE YOUR FIRST SUBS
BY THE WAY YOU WILL GET REAL ******* SICK IF YOU DONT STOP TAKING ALL OPIATES(NORCOS) 48 HOURS BEFORE YOU TAKE YOUR FIRST SUBS
Yikes.......omg, yeah, I'm scared of that ****. I never even think about methadone for pain....my brain just thinks about drug use/abuse. I have someone close to me who's on it as a way to get off of oxy and he's been hooked on it for 2 years....and up to 140mgs? i think. ANd I've heard the horror about getting clean from it. Wow, that brings it to the surface.
i used methadone for pain, and never got high from it in the 2 years i used it, but it was extremely hard to get off of. 31 days to get it out of my system. 3 weeks with no more than 2 hrs sleep in a night, and extreme pain and runs. i had no meds for help. i have quit norco before, 3 or 4 times, and it was nothing compared to the methadone wd's. that is why i never reccomend methadone to anyone.
Lucy
Lucy
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