Endorphins - When do I get them back!

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Hi All! (I cant believe I got through, I must collect myself a moment).

Does anyone know how long it takes to have ones endorphins return to pre-opoid days?  I am just wondering about the day that I attempt to only use things like Yoga, meditation, and maybe the antidepressants to tackle my fibromyalgia and arthritis.  I have wanted to know this for a long time but could not get through to make a new post.  This is one exciting day!  I think I will do a quick pick on Lotto!  I would appreciate any information from you good people.  I mean do the drugs need to be out of your system for a period of time?  Does it depend on what you were on and how long you were on it?  
Thanks Again Everybody,
Marcie!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

In my opinion your question about the return of endorphines is moot.  The length of time here is as varied as we are different genetically.  I had a very long wait and went through months of treatment with SSRI meds and benzos.  One day I said that's enough!  Believe you me, you will know when they are back but I think you have to be clean and sober to realize it.  That's been my experience at any rate.  It's pretty subtle at first.  Today, I actually have emotions and can care about other's problems.  I can cry and feel again!  For so many years I thought that I was the only one in the world with problems-poor me.  In the end, I was alone with myself and I hated myself.  Endophines do a lot more than relieve pain, they make life worth living as a human being.

P.S. I bought two lottery tickets today and won $6.00.  That'll be part of my donation to Med Help.  I got the e-mail today from Cindy and Phil.  We need to keep this forum going!

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

I'm confused.  I want my endorphins to come back not to not be in pain but like you said to FEEL BETTER like you said you know the "make life worth living thing"  that is the part I want to know about.  Do you mean that you were on months of Antidepressants and like Xanax or something like that? Sorry to drill you with all the questions I am just trying to make sure I understand what you are saying! Do you mean that you quit taking antidepressants and tranquilizers and things suddenly fell into place?  You are going to wish like hell you did not answer my post arent you! (sorry).  I am glad you agree that we need to keep this site going!  You all are so terrific and with the holidays coming up we may need each other!!!!
Have a good Day.
Marcie!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

No, I didn't mean that everything suddenly fell into place.  It was a lot of soul searching, medications and help from fellow addicts that helped to make everything clear to me.  Call it a spiritual awakening.  After working on "my problem" for so many years, I can't say that anything was sudden.  But little by little things did fall into place for me.  No, I am not sorry for answering any of your posts.  All I can really say for sure is that it takes as long as it takes.  I know it's confusing to hear such a simplistic statement but it's really the heart of the matter.  There's two ways of looking at things....Keep it simple stupid or keep it stupid simple!  I'm sorry but my pain meds have kicked in big time and I'm getting kind of spaced out.

Just don't kill youself as I have.  Now I must pay the piper!

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Thanks for your input.  Good to hear from you!

[Dee]

Hi all, I tried to post this question as new, but as you all know that it sometimes impossible to do! I have a question, please bear with me if it seems like a 'stupid' one...but here goes,
If your liver starts to get 'sick' or doesn't work as well, when you do drugs what happens? I mean do you feel the pain meds more or do you feel them less??? have a great day all!

[vickyvortex to Carol, Marcie and J.B.]

.Carol:  I know that from previous postings, I believe J.B. is familiar with Liver ailments.  Both my parents had Hepatitis C.  My father has been able to live a normal life thru interferon, however, my beloved mother was not so lucky. From the little knowledge I have gathered, the liver is like a filter that absorbs all impurities(someone correct me if I am wrong.)  Some drugs, such as alcohol and tylenol tend to stay in the liver, and prevent it from functioning correctly, and after a long period of abuse or sickness, it stops working.  My mother was in Turkey on a vacation, and got an infection that sped up her Hep C infection and passed away within a month.  She had been ill with it since before i was born, but it had only been diagnosed within the last three years.  Since I was born with it, I have been tested several times and so far so good.  Marcie, if you find an answer about endorphins, please share, I am worried about it too.

[vickyvortex]

I am sorry to interrupt your post Carol, but apparantly until J.B's six dollars kicks in only one question is allowed per day!! P.S. J.b. seriously, I have read up a little on the Bronze Star and I am not only very proud of the job you did for our country, but I believe every real hero is scared .  Only the stupid ones aren't.  I have a problem that is sort of drug related but a very serious one to me.  I named myself with the vortex because I do have something swirling around me.  It is not a vortex of hate, but one of regret and sadness.  I have recently turned 37, and I have a very understanding and patient husband, and a decent job.  however, I can't stop obsessing over the past.  I used to be pretty good-looking,   had some serious music connections and a pretty exciting life.  OF course, my addiction stepped in and I lost a lot of things and my youth.  I can't seem to accept that everyone gets older, my husband still loves me even though I am aging, and I panic because I feel my life is flying by and I am not acomplishing anything.  When I try to sleep, memories of my happy innocent college days and my fun not so innocent party days flood me so badly I can't breathe.  I take valium but it does not help the attacks.  I am seeing my doctor (Thank God, because I took a few too many vicodins with the flu and will fun out a few days early)  Actually, this is the best I have ever done with my script.  I am ususally out about 12 days before, and now it will only be about six.  However, I digress.  Please, if anyone knows what I can do to stop obsessing over superficial things like lost beauty, stupid hair bands and just the joy of being young please help.  Although this may come off silly, I am depressed in a way I have never been before and I need help.  Thanks to all my friends here.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

I am going to reply in a minute.  I just wanted to make sure that you were still here.  Is there NO way to get in CHAT ROOM.  Geesh there must be a way we can all take when we need too.
I will send you a reply in a second

[Brighty to Vickyvortex]

Vicky, I don't think you are silly. I have the idea that depression is a given with opiate use. But I don't think that means that you should just accept it. Please, whatever you do try to get some help... like counseling or maybe look into trying to get on an anti-depressant. Depression is nothing to fool around with.There is little question in my mind that you are being very hard on yourself. I'm sure that you are far more accomplished and youthful than you think.... you just seem to have a poor self image at the moment probably due to not feeling good. I'm 49 and it took me a long time to learn to let go of the image stuff and focus on the real things...like being grateful that my child is alive after all the od's and suicide attempts. But when there is real depression even counting blessings doesn't help. So please stay here and talk and maybe see what else you can do for youself. There are some good tapes you can get on letting go of the past and self forgiveness. Just a suggestion. You deserve to be well. Love, Brighty

[vickyv]

wow!! Thank you all so much!  i didn't realize so many were listening.  As for the chat room, I have tried it too, and noone is ever there.  I have to pop out for a few minutes, but I will be back.  Thank you again for hearing me.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Hi!
I am 39, and I too have a phenomenal husband. I thank his family all the time for him.  I have a great job I love in the legal field. I too have this thing about obesessing the past. I am willing to bet that you are still beautiful (we can all stand to lose a few pounds).  My husband is such a doll that he forked out $6,500 for liposuction.  That liposuction has since gone into remission (haha).  Let's just say I am once again Calorically challanged!  As far as your other life If you ever want to talk about it I would love to hear about it! Exciting Life too huh!!! Tell Me Tell Me Tell Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, Now when you say you keep obsessing about the past do you mean the good ole days?  Like you look at it now and say damn I want to be there again?  And when you mention the fact that your husband loves you even though you are aging wouldnt you say you still love your husband even though HE IS AGING TOO?
Now why are you panicing(sp)?  Do you work?  If so and if you can say what do you do?  What do you do to keep yourself busy during an average day?  Once I had my first child I started freaking out because I did not have a college education.  I am thinking if my husband got hit by a truck can I afford the lifestyle I am living now?  I was obsessing too.  SO I was working at a law firm who put me throught Legal Secretary School then it was on to get my Paralegal Degree. I felt so alive.  I took my time doing it and had a blast.  I got all A's I was so proud of myself I couldnt stand it.  I was about 18 months pregnant (I know I just mean I was very pregnant) and I was gong to night school from 6 to 9 twice a week.  I was running on Adrenaline because I loved it so much.  For the first time in my life I was so proud of myself!
Now why do memories freak you out when you are trying to sleep?  Were they fun times?  Were they so much fun that you MOURN for the way it used to be?  You say that they flood you so badly and you cant breathe.  What are you thinking of when that happens (change the names to protect the innocent if you need to HAHA)?   Have you ever thought about a STRESS counselor?  I see one she if great she is in to Holistic Meditative type of counseling.  She has all kinds of degrees. And she is also a recovering alcoholic.  She is an amazing person.  I enjoy my appts. with her so much!  I feel revived!  
What is your situation that you are on the Vicodins?  What the hell do you feel like the 12 days till refill time?  Digress all you need Vicky say what ever you need to.  
Are you currently on Antidepressants?  ALL THESE DAMN QUESTIONS YOU PROBABLY ARE WONDERING IF YOU ARE GOING INTO THE MAYO CLINIC OR IF A FRIEND IS TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU ARE FEELING AND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM!  SORRY FOR THE INTERROGATION!

Have you every had your thyroid check for Hyper/Hypo Thyroidism?

Vicky, I think that you are always going to think and worry about those type of things.  With me it got worse because after I had my first child I suddenly started caring about WORLD PEACE, SAVING THE WHALES, IRRIDATION OF OUR FRUITS AND VEGETABLES, SPENT ALMOST OUR LIFE SAVINGS ON ORGANIC BABY FOOD, RESEARCHED TOO MUCH ON SIDS, CHILD ABDUCTION YADA YADA YADA.

In closing Vicky, One day a few years ago I went with my sister in law (who was visiting from South Florida) to a BIG craft show where I live. I was talked into taking a quit "hit" from a pipe filled with POT.  Now keep in mind it has been 20 years or more since I have partaken in such a thing.  Well Long story Long I swore EVERYONE was looking at me.  I swore that I saw all the snobs from the kids private school there.  I could not stop laughing and then proceeded to purchase AND EAT $50.00 worth of PEANUT BRITTLE.  I could not drive home and freaked out all the way home.  Went home and slept for a long time.  The moral of this story.  No matter how much you want it you just can't go back.  It just is not the same no matter how much you want it to be. I really mourn the thought of that.   I really do.

Please dont think anything you say comes off silly.  If I was worried about that I sure as hell would not have posted most of what is above up there!  Hang in there Vicky, and dont go to far away.  Oh Vicky, C'mon just throw one band or two at me PLEEEEASE.
Take Care Buddy!
Marcie!

[vickyvortex to marcie]

Marcie, I almost had an anxiety attack reading your post!!!! just kidding.  You are correct about mourning the past.  It seems like I never realize how great things are until they are gone, such as jobs, school etc.  Not that I didn't have problems, its just that they overwhelemed me during the time, and it wasn't until later that I realized I had wasted some wonderful times by my worrying and depression.  I am afraid that now is a good time, but I don't realize it because I am in the throes of depression.  I had gone away to college after high school to get away from drinking and drugs; first a small Christian college in Tenn called Carson-Newman, and then I transferred to University of Tenn in Knoxville, where I began partying way too much.  Eventually I dropped out, with one year to go.  Last year I started in an accelerated program to finally get my B.S. in Accounting.  To make a long story short, my husband and I decided to finally get out of the small town we were currently living and head to the city.  Well, I miss school, I won't be able to transfer back into that program for another year.  While I was in this class, I felt alive for the first time in years.  I was doing great and didn't focus on the fact I was a vicodin addict.  Now, my husband works nights, I work in accounting in a logistics company.  I am alone at night and don't really feel like doing a lot.  I have been depressed since we moved.  I feel it was a big mistake.  We used to come down here for entertainment and now that we live here it just seems like work and sleep.  I am doing absolutely nothing to help myself.  Yes, I love my husband, but I also feel that if I hadn't screwed up on cocaine I might be living a different life.  I do believe God makes things happen for a reason.  I would not change the man I am married to, I miss the nighlife and yes the music o.k. Joe Perry/Aerosmith is one name and no more.  I dated a guy who was in the music business but I was too screwed up mentally to maintain a stable relationship at the time.  The memories of my old life are glorified in my head so much now that I have to remind myself constantly of the problems.  I want to focus on my new life.  I have been with my husband almost seven years, married for a year and a half. I know he is aware that I am not happy, although he knows I love him.  I am sure he also wishes things were different for him, not to be stuck with an addict.  Which brings me to my addiction:
When I was born, I was a breach baby.  The doctor who used the forceps twisted my neck and dislocated my spine.  When I was about 18 months old, I wore a leg brace, but no one knew about my neck.  Although you can't see it, I can't turn it to the right and the nerves are so tight going down my back.  I was taken to Duke University when I was a teen, and apparantly the muscles had twisted around the mastoid thing.  At the time, they didn't have laser surgury and they couldn't cut to release the pressure because it was near the jugular vein.  In my teens I did drugs recreationally, but had never taken pain pills, except for a weird curiosity when I was about 10 that will be saved for another post.  Someone gave me some vicodin when I was about thirty to try for fun.  Having a former heroin addict for a father brought out the instant opioid addict in me.  Eventually, I found the name of a doctor who was known for prescribing, and due to my physical problem was able to obtain them legally.  I have gone to him for ten years and he is my enabler.  However, he is also a good doctor.  We have discussed my depression, and so far it had come and gone, so he said to give it some time.  I am going to talk to him about it when I see him.  I am afraid that the vicodin will interfere with the anti-depressive and vice-versa.  So I guess that needs to be addressed.  I have also been in a mental hospital three times for addiction, the last one in of all places, Newark NJ.  I had gone to visit my uncle on his deathbed at a V.A. hospital, had drank on the plane down and was sitting out on the bench smoking a cigarette and saw a drug deal go down. In the PROJECTS accross the street.  I don't know what came over me, but I could have been killed. I was just sitting there for three hours smoking crack with God knows who. My cousin wound up committing me for the weekend and my husband who was then my boyfriend and my father had to sign me out.  It was the most horrible thing I could have done to my family.  I mean, down in the ghetto, doing crack for God's sake.  I don't do coke anymore, and don't miss it.  O.K., except for wanting collegen lips too, I can't talk any more right now, Marcie, I think everyone is tired of me by now, but it is good to get it out.  It is easier to spill your guts than to accept help though.  Thanks to everyone for listening.

[vicky to Brighty]

Thank you for the kind, wonderful words.  I am so sorry about your daughter.  Everything is so relative; we complain about our own problems when there is unimaginable suffering in the world, but you are right, it doesn't matter how bad the rest of the world is when you are the one in pain.  Thank you everyone for your kindness.  I definitely want to focus on the present and the future and try to stop obsessing over the past, because my present will be my past and I want to learn to enjoy it Thanks again.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Joe Perry huh.  Bet you cant guess what/who my screensaver is. I will bet you cant guess my first concert.  Yep the Bad Boys from Boston. Toxic Twins.  Yup this mommy has a sticker on her Dodge Caravan that says "Got Wings"?  Guess who I saw in concert last May in Las Vegas?

Life is a Journey Not a destination. How high can you climb with broken wings. You just cant tell what tomorrow brings. You gotta learn to crawl before you learn to walk. I just didnt wanna hear all that righteous talk. Its AMAZING.  Vicky, I cry sometimes when I hear that song.  It's my MANTRA.

Walk on Down!

I think we have just a bit in common huh!

Your still killin me. More More More!!!!!

P.S. My daughter was 4 and almost had all the lyrics to PINK as she sang the song. One day I had to YANK IT OUT and throw Barney Back in.  Now I just turn the volume down on some of the songs.  My daughter loves the song that starts of with the WIZARD OF OZ STUFF.

XO!
Marcie.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I'm sorry to hear about your parents and Hep C, especially your Mom.  It can be a very frustrating disease!  My immune system is doing so poorly these days that it's scarey.  I've had pneumonia twice in the past six months, cellulitis in my left arm, osteomylitis in my left foot and chronic bronchitis.  A friend of mine passed away in October due to a fungal infection in his lungs, he also had Hep C.  He was gone in nine days!

I get depressed,too.  Some days it just sinks in and no matter what I do, I can't shake it. I know that I can drive myself crazy thinking about the past and what could have or should have been.  Life is full of disappointment!  It helps to dwell on what we do have now in reality and hang on to it for dear life.

[Vicky to J.B.]

What you and your wife are going through is heartbreaking.  I can be depressed or anxious, but it is not going to be something that kills can kill me unless I let it.  I truly believe everything happens for a reason.  My mother also passed away very quickly.  She was hospitalized, two days later intensive care, and three days later...she was gone.  BUT!!!! A wonderful thing happened!! Because of that experience, I became a true believer in God.  I am not afraid to sound preachy here because I felt it.  I don't know what others comfort themselves with that don't believe.  The thing was, J.B., she was not afraid at all of dying. She was more worried about my father and me surviving. She had never been an overly religious person, although my father was a respected minister.  However, you could almost feel the presence of HIM in the room.  And it was spooky.  The best thing is that we were able to say goodbye.  It was not a random accident that happened without a chance to say it.  Of course every day I miss her and there are so many things I did to hurt her that I can never forget but i know she has forgiven me.  You are right:  Life is full of disapointment.  From what I have gathered you have a wonderful wife who is also sick.  I am sure your burdens are more than you can sometimes bear.  But just as I know from writing to you that I am feeling the spirit, He will be with you.  You have been an inspiration for so many people on this board.  You were the one that has helped me the most.  Non-judgemental even when I was at my most vicious.  The people in your life are very blessed.  I will be praying for your family.

[vickyv to marcie]

Thanks again for your fun posts.  I have to be honest though, I don't really like Aerosmith, I was always into the alternative scene, HOWEVER, as far as rock stars go, he is, yes, amazing.  I was lucky enough to have met him briefly after a show in Chicago.  However, he is surrounded by his "people" as they all are, and it was nothing personal.  But he is all that he can be.  Now, enough of the past.  My goal today is to focus on doing things to improve the present.  After reading J.B.'s post, how can I complain about life not being fair to me.  It is what I make of it.  Unfortunately, I am not as lucky as you, my sweet, as I live in a very cold place.  So, there are not alot of activities to do.  Before we moved, we had our own home, and we planted our first garden, etc.  We decided to move into an apartment for the first year here and that is a big mistake.  People slam their doors at five in the morning!!!! I just posted a note VERY POLITELY asking people to be more gentle with their doors and guess what?  In the span of a half hour I have heard more door slamming than ever.  It is 6:30PM.  I think my tactics have backfired on me!!! Always doing before thinking!!!!  You gave very good advice to Neena.  Not having any children, I did not feel it my place to barge in on that situation with the preschool, but please, everyone needs their quiet time so that they enjoy their children and their loved ones.  I am so glad that you reassured her.  I liked the line about putting on your oxygen mask before putting on your child's.  And that way you can make sure yours is on, cause I am not sure if a two year old would know what to do!!! That was a lame attempt at a joke.  Hang in there everyone.  It is so nice to have a lively conversation.  Sometimes I think I am the only one checking in here.  See ya later.

[yes, its me again]

I forgot to mention about the withdrawals.  Marcie, mine are like everone else's on this board.  Although I only take about four or five vicodin Es's, the withdrawal is as severe as if I had been shooting morphine.  Its the most horrible, yucky feeling ever.  Its the flu, but more than that.  Your eyes are swollen, you have a sick ache in your stomach, I have the need to karate chop my legs constantly.  I use an exercise bike for temporary relief.  The increased blood flow helps.  I haven't gotten too nauseus (SP) but there is some discomfort.  I am going to try the immodium recommended since it has a tiny opioid conncection. The anxiety is incredible, you are so shaky and nervous. In short, it is hell.  I would gladly go through the cocaine nightmare a thousand times over to have never taken a vicodin.  I also read back through my posts and need to clear up my dates.  I started with my doctor when I was 27 and am still with him.  I see him next week.  I drive two and half hours.  He doesn't know I have moved out of the area, but I am going to bite the bullet and tell him.  My worst fear and my GREATEST HOPE is that he cuts me off. That's how crazy this disease is.  What about you Marcie, what brought you to this board, if you don't mind my asking.

[cindy to vicky and marcie]

vicky, your story is amazing.  Like Brighty said, I think you probably have more going for you than you think.  I was glad to hear you say you wanted to live in the present.  I too went through a stage where I felt like my future was over.  When you are young, the whole world is in front of you.  When you are forty, the choices you made are becoming final.  Yes, one can still become a doctor, but its pretty difficult.  If you're single, the guys aren't lining up like they used to.  However, there is a wonderful side.  We forget the insecurities all of us had as teens and young adults.  I was a lot like you, a party girl who is longing to go back to those days.  But then I remember:  the hangovers, the stupid fights with loved ones, Not sure who I really was.  Now is a wonderful time to live.  As far as aging, even the most beautiful go through it.  Cindy Crawford was just fired by Revlon because they want to target a "younger" audience.  As a believer also, I know this is a stage he has planned for us, so there has to be good in that.  Now, marcie, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think by egging Vicky on about the past may not be what she needs right now.  We need to encourage her to embrace the present.  You sound like you have a very nice life.  What kind of things, besides being busy with your kids of course, can you recommend for Vicky to help with loneliness an boredom?  What do all of us do to pass the time?  I am just as windy as Vicky now.  Just kidding!!

[Brighty to JB]

The service you have provided to our country, the unconditional love and healing you provided your nephew and for all that you give here to all of us.....your life is a prayer. This is not something I am going to discuss here, but I believe strongly in the spirituality of suffering. I don't mean to say that anyone deserves it, but I firmly believe it is part of our spiritual purifying....it brings us to healing. My love to you and Marty.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Hi Cindy!
I feel so bad! I did not know I was "egging" Vicky!  I love Aerosmith, Vicky said the name Joe Perry and I jumped because I have fond memories of that time as well as not so fine ones.

Music is the one thing above all medication, counseling, self help books etc. that gives ME a peace of mind. Music takes me to a safe place. Whether it be a CD with Ocean Sounds, or James Taylor telling me that I've gotta friend or even Aerosmith reminding me that "Life is a journey not a destination" or their song about alcoholism "Its Amazin" "you have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk".

If anyone reads the Aerosmith autobiorgraphy "Walk This Way" you will read about a group that almost deteriorated because of drug and alcohol abuse.  They all came very close to death because of their addictions. Thank god they all went through rehab.  They have come a long way.  In their newer music even some of the old stuff "Its Amazin" they sing about their comeback from their addictions. So when I hear them I don't think of partying or getting out of control. I hear my own personal counseling CD complete with the feelings and thoughts of a band gone crazy and how they conquered their addictions and came back and had the guts to write songs about it for all to hear!

Again, Cindy, I am so sorry if it appeared that I was "egging"  Vicky on about her past. I like to kid around as being too serious all the time is a BIG downer for me.  There is no way I intended to bring any type of flashback harm to my buddie Vicky.

As you may have read in my prior post I encouraged Vicky to "embrace the present" by giving her ideas of seeking out a Stress Counselor, further her education, look in to a holistic approach to things as well as meditation and hypothyroidism.

I don't know what Vicky needs right now but I know that if she ever needs a Buddy to lean on I will be more than happy to be hers!

Marcie!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thanks for all the kind words of encouragement!  It's possible that all this suffering will not be in vain if there is an existence beyond.  At least we are given the ability to help others because of our experiences in life.  I don't feel that spirituality has much of a downside.  It surely has helped me get over some of my worst moments.  I believe that spirituality is part of being "human".  Just look into your child's eyes and you will feel something out of this world for a moment!

I was hoping to see my niece this Christmas but she is still pretty ill.  Her morphine pump was removed about ten days ago and she's having a rough time.  She's been addicted for over eight years  to pain meds.  Her doctors refused to go on with the meds any longer and have made her detox.  She was rapidly going downhill mentally and physically.  Her Mom is at her side now and taking care of her.  I'm praying that she will be able to recover and become part of the family again.  I think Brighty knows a little about this subject!

[Brighty to JB]

Considering all we share here I think we can appropriately call this a prayer board.... eveyone is supporting everyone else. I am sad to hear of your neice... I don't think I know her story... maybe you posted it before... I'm sorry, I don't recall. In any case, she needs lots of support and I know you will be there for her. If you care to tell us a bit more about her I'm sure others will want to know. I know the folks here will open their hearts. Maybe you can print all the replies and give them to her mom to read to her in this difficult time. To be ill and then have to detox off pain meds is a major challenge. I'm sure others will want to send her messages to help give her strength and courage. Please print this message and give it to her.... total and complete healing is our spiritual birthright.... I will pray for her unceasingly. Love, Brighty

[Brighty to JB]

Considering all we share here I think we can appropriately call this a prayer board.... eveyone is supporting everyone else. I am sad to hear of your neice... I don't think I know her story... maybe you posted it before... I'm sorry, I don't recall. In any case, she needs lots of support and I know you will be there for her. If you care to tell us a bit more about her I'm sure others will want to know. I know the folks here will open their hearts. Maybe you can print all the replies and give them to her mom to read to her in this difficult time. To be ill and then have to detox off pain meds is a major challenge. I'm sure others will want to send her messages to help give her strength and courage. Please print this message and give it to her.... total and complete healing is our spiritual birthright.... I will pray for her unceasingly. Love, Brighty

[to cindy, marcie, brighty and J.B. from]

This thread has turned into a wonderful, positive thing.  It is so comforting to know that people are praying, even as I write this post.  God knows our hearts, our pain, physical, emotional and spiritual.  J.B., you are coping with so much yet are always so positive.  It breaks my heart to re-read your words on life's disapointments.  You have so much to offer, here on this very small stage called the physical world, and along with us all, so much more to experience in the everlasting life we will share with the Lord.  Cindy, don't worry!! I enjoyed Marcie's posts so much about Aerosmith.  I just saw a pic of them, they are getting an award for, well, frankly, having the sexiest lead guitarist, but again, I digress.  Have I told you how lucky you are to be in Florida, even among this political B.S.?  It just snowed about six inches, people freaking out everywhere.  Are you close to any of the political stuff?  What is the real atmosphere down there?  Brighty, you are aptly named.  Please keep sharing the spiritual side of things.  I think its the best thing about this board right now.  I am even improving.  My depression has lifted!!!  While I am not exactly egggggstatic, I am no longer morose and feeling such low self esteem.  Although I do have a salary review tomorrow.....Hopefully, things will be looking up $$$$$$$.  That was really greedy, but I can definitely use a few more pennies.  Love to all, Vicky(I am gonna drop the vortex)

[To sick and scared from Neena]

Are you still clean?  I read that you went through severe withdrawals, as I did after only taking 5-6 Vic ES/day.  My detox was as you described.  I would rock back and forth...I could not stop my legs...I gagged all the time, I could not think, could not eat, all the while I tended to my 21 month old daughter.  I did board my dog though, after I fell while feeding her.  I got offended by someone making me feel guilty about wanting to put my daughter in a church half day play/daycare, so I left this board for a while.  But, I have stuck around and been in touch a little.  We all have our own stories..."baggage" reasons for abuse, ie...excuses.  If one day you care to hear my story, I'll fill you in, but I just wanted to tell you that, I too, am praying for you and that you stay constant.  I have begun to take one or two or three pills a day; female problems, but none the less, taking them again...but only in small amounts.  I WAS really pounding them. 2-3 at every whim, all the while taking Ambien, Xanax, Zoloft and drinking.  Absolutely insane.  I am terrified of that life.  I wouldn't wish that Hell on anyone...well maybe my worst enemy.  The withdrawals, the life of a Vicoden addict is no life at all.  I hope that your raise came through.  I can't wait to get back to work part-time, just to keep my mind moving and challenged.  Good Luck Vicky, Neena

[marque]

Hi, to Marcie,J.B. & Dr. Steve, I've only posted a few times on this forum and have seem to have made a connection with my fellow attics. For that I am truly grateful. I thank my God for another day clean, and I have come to realize that support groups make winners. Today I have 137 Days clean. But back to the original question "When do the endorphins return " I beleive
that this is so slow that you almost can't feel it taking place. Since I came out of opiate detox on July 28th.2000 I had the normal acute withdrawls that Im sure most of us have had in times past.(Anxiety, Agitation, Depression,Insomnia, Hypertension and Muscle cramps)But even though Ive havent had a vicodin in over fours months..I still am in deep depression and also have panic attacks... My Dr. has me on Zoloft 50mg. and a mood stableiser Depracote 250 mg. I really dont know if there doin there job. Maybe my Deppression could be worse. I know that the neuro transmitter Serotonin plays key parts in your mood. Up until July this year I was eating 8-10 Vico's a day. Had been for over a year.Told my boss I had to get some help cause that window between tolerance and just feeling normal was closing fast. I was sick when I took them and sick from withdrawls....so I had no place to go except detox.....then after that went into a 28 day program. But my consetration level and short term memory was really messed up.
But at least that some better now..... Guess I have what you would call protracted abstinence syndrome. I really dont know how long this will last.I wake up with anxiety jumps I call them. mostly in my stomach area. Im the mornings.and have this feeling of bewilderment...my preciption of this reality some how has changed .....like What the world is like thru sombody'elese
eyes....really weird .....that some times can cause the anxeity to rear its ugly head.
This has been the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with in my 43yrs of life. I remember in my dreams how life was with out these drugs.....Happy and content with out the depression that I awakin to.My only advice is to stay clean .....get to NA or a AA progran it can help you thru this time in your life......
when ever I feel a craving ...I think where I was with all those withdrawls and Ill have to go thru all this over again. or I'll Pray or get to a meeting or call one of the names on my list or addicts that have made it....If you really want to quit it can be done........thank you everybody....till next time...Mark

[vicky to neena]

Hi Neena!!! I feel like I know you already thru reading your posts.  No, I am not clean.  However, I have claimed some control over my addiction in the last year.  I have been prescribed vicodin Es for a congential neck problem that also has become arthritic that no one seems to know what to do about.  Anyway, I will candidly say that my neck, shoulders and the nerves down my back do not feel any better when I take narcotics.  However, I now am addicted to the pills or I go through withdrawal.  Like you, I used to down them, would go through w/d's swear I was done until, refill time.  My husband finally gave me a lecture on "good hydro management!!!!!"  Except for a half a vicodin about once a year, He does not take anything except motrin.  He got tired of my going through the ups and downs and we had a discussion on how to handle it.  The result is that eventually I got tired of being sick and tired, but I could not stop.  So I tapered down from two every two hours to my normal dose of 1 every four hours.  Now, sometimes I do take more than I should.  The addict in me will say "But Vicky, you deserve to take a vicodin/hydro because...."  And then I pay the price by going through withdrawals.  The surprising thing is my body finally adapted, and though I don't get a euphoric feeling ALL the time, I am able to hold off the withdrawals, maintain my life and still feel good.  The bad thing is I am an addict.  I almost don't want surgury yet because I am afraid I will no longer get my pills.  There!!! I said it.  Anyway, Now I couldn't imagine taking the amounts that I read about, it would literally make me sick.  So, I think there is a happy medium.  It takes a lot of willpower, but it does work.  Sorry this is so long, Neena, and I probably didn't even mention anything you asked.  Please remind me if I didn't. :)

[vicky again to neena]

I forgot to comment on the leg thing.  ISN"T IT THE WORST?  I can't stand it.  Sometimes I even get it when I am using.  I have found that fiercly riding an exercise bike is the best thing for temporary help.  You won't believe the things you can do physically with exercise equipment when you are in pain.  My husband also karate chops my legs.  Wonderful.  Oh and a tanning booth helps, when I can drag myself to it.  The rays seem to relieve a little of yucky feeling.  During withdrawals, I mentally pretend my body is renewing itself and I am ridding myself of evil toxins in a ceremonial way.  I really sound like I am full of ****!!!!

[To sick and scared from Neena]

I think you are very right when you write that you still have depression, stomach problems, etc. even months after detox.  I detoxed in late October.  Of course, I did the horrible, severe withdrawals, but have since taken small amounts of Vicoden ES.  I was taking tons of them per day before.  Luckily, I have only gotten my hands on ten at a time so I use them responsibily, so far.  I am terrified of travelling down that road to Hell again.  I guess I'll need to taper with the few that I have left.  I am taking Zoloft and am still on Xanax since the detox, prescribed by a doctor.  I am not being honest with myself and I hate that, but for the 4 weeks that I was codiene free, I never felt good.  I felt disoriented and had wierd dreams.  I hope that I have not screwed things up totally.  I still don't know, nor do I remember what it felt like to be drug free, even though I only took them for a year or so.  Thanks for your very real post.  Neena

[To sick and scared from Neena]

Nope you don't sound like you're full of ****.  Sounds like we are both at the same point.  Under control.  Compared to what I used to take, 2 or 3 a day is nothing, but I really want to take none at all.  I have nightmares about my withdrawal/detox.  The actual event was horrible.  I almost went to the hospital.  I should have, but I felt so guilty that I suffered it out at home in front of my husband and daughter.  How humiliating.  He would shoot me if he knew that I was even taking this little amount at all.  He doesn't even take aspirin, so this whole Vicoden withdrawal was very strange to him.  He does smoke though, so we will try that quitting game again.  Stay in touch, please...Neena

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

This morning my wife and I were talking about drug addiction in general.  What brought the subject up was a story about Robert Downey, Jr's on going problem with addiction that she had read. With all of her dewy eyed innocense in place, she asked me how anybody could possibly use drugs when they know the consequences are so severe.  I choked on my coffee!  We've only been married for 22 years and I have battled addiction much of that time.  Non addicts make strange bedfellows for us but we surely do need them!

I just thought I'd share this with you as it caught me off guard and had me laughing to tears. (she's a nicotine addict but that's different in her mind)

[barbara to pain and lortab]

That is a good one! What excuse does she give for not quittng her smoking. If it's because it's legal well so is alcohol but it kills so many every year!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

When I mention her nicotine addiction, it shuts her right up.  Then I know she's thinking in reality again!  My drugs were legal too, but he way I abused them was a crime.  My wife has lung cancer and is getting chemotherapy yet continues to smoke about 2 packs per day.  We've tried the gum, patches and Wellbutrin on her with no success.  Really now, is there any difference between being addicted to opiates and nicotine?  The insanity of it all is identical.  And it kills you just as dead!

[barbara to pain and lortab]

Wow, I am sorry to hear about the lung cancer. It's hard to believe even after all of that suffering that she cannot force herself to stop. The DT's and seizures was enough for me to quit drinking. I am sure she must be suffering as much pain and trouble breathing must interfere with her life. I hope she decides to throw the things away and soon!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I talked with her again last night about quitting cigarettes.  She says she will not quit because she likes them too much.  She claims that they are not mind altering in any way!  Whoa!  Why do people smoke more when nervous or in stressful situations?  But she won't see things the way I do.  Plus her oncologist has told her that the type of cancer she has isn't caused by smoking.  So, here I sit stymied again.

[barbara to pain and lortab]

I wonder how much suffering she is willing to endure before deciding it is necessary to quit? I would think she would want as productive and comfortable life as possible in her predicament.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Hi Mark,
Do they have you on too low of a dose of the Zoloft? I am on 150 mg. and to me it seems high but my no means at that dosage do I feel carefree and perky!  I have been on antidepressants for so long I would not know if they were not working.  I have not known who I am for sure since starting on the various antidepressants 5 years ago. Prozac, Effexor, Buspar (for anxiety) and now Zoloft.

This seems wierd but whatever is in the medicine that stops Obsessive Compulsive Disorder also stops my ability to daydream and even gets in the way of meditating.  It is like my receptors are thinking that I am obsessing when I really and just trying to think/concentrate of things that make me happy.  My mind just goes dead when I try to concentrate about a subject. I know that sounds wierd but maybe someone might know what I am talking about.  It is like my ability to daydream is gone because my body thinks I am obsessing.  Hell, I know this sounds like nonsense! Boy I wish I had a crystal ball for knowing how much and what kind of antidepressat I should take.  If I go off everything and flip my lid I dont want to wait the 6 weeks or so for the next antidepressant to kick in.
The only thing I know for sure is that I am glad this site is here with all the great people that come with it.  I dont know what I would have done without a site like this where I can hang out and have fun while educating myself at the same time!
Take Care
Marcie

[barbara to pain and lortab]

I know exactly what you mean. I have always been obsessed with typhoons and weather and now I am actually thinking of chaning careers. My deaydreaming and ideas also are affected. I was going to publish a music CD my ex-boyfriend and I completed the

[barbara to pain and lortab]

Master tape of. He went to jail shortly after for getting violent and after I gathered enough money for 1,000 CD's to be produced. All of the sudden and I lost interest altogether in producing the CD's. I used to love music and listened to it all the time. Now I don't turn on the TV OR Radio anymore. It's like I don't care about anything including if I die or not. Each day is just like another day of survival. When I was obsessed I had projects to work on and goals. Now nothing but blank like I am on the "Road to Nowhere"!

I have been on Celexa, (similar to Zoloft) for several months and it doesn't seem to be helping. Only the Klonopin and Ultram help my mood along with the other problems they were prescribed for.

I used to love to write my thoughts down and analyze things, now I can't seem to get two sentences out. I think the obsession was necessary to quide my mind and moods. I feel like a different person now. I hate how I feel. I've just been forcing myself to keep busy to keep my mind off it but it won't leave me alone no matter what I do. I can't even sleep properly and now have developed what I think is sleep Narcolepsy. I will get checked for it within two or three weeks.

I have never fallen asleep in the car or at work before in my life and now it seems to be becoming a regular thing in the morning and early evening. The computers and car headlights seem to affect it, and I have almost had many accidents from temporarily blacking out and going in the other lanes. I tried changing medicine times and eating times and everything possible and it's not any of that. Some would blame the Klonopin but I have taken three 1 mg tabs at a time as a test and did not even get tired. I worked just fine.

It always seems if it isn't one thing, it's something else. I am working with my higher power about it, that's why I need to go to the jungle to feel closer to nature and God. Sorry for the babbling but I know the feeling you are talking about Marcie.

[vickyv to barbara and hi to Marcie!!]

Since anti-depressents and other psychotropic drugs main purpose is to alter moods, It would seem logical that one of the side effects of anti-depressents might be stifling creativity.  Manic Depressives often enjoy the manic period, because they have energy and a feeling of being high.  One reason they go off of the meds so frequently is that the stabilization of their mood kills the "creative, impulsive" side.  A lot of musicians are manic-depressives, and are at their artistic best when they are in the manic mode.  Speaking of Musicians, Marcie, it seems like everywhere I look I see Aerosmith now!!!  I think of you every time.  How are you doing?

[vickyv to J.B. § also regarding dextrom]

J.B., regarding your comment about cookoo's nest, I hope you are not referring to being lobotomized!!!!  During one of my many(!!!)stays in the mental ward, where they put the addicts, People were being trotted off left and right for SHOCK TREATMENTS!  And the scary part is they all seemed happier when they got back, except for one poor girl who's memory was zapped.  I know that talking about mental hospitals is weird, but here in good old Indiana, when you go inpatient, you are put in with everyone that is classified under mental health.  Which means you are locked up with the possibility of having a  schitzophrenic, a heroin addict OR an alocholic as your roomate.  Luckily, I was always such a prima donna that I was lucky enough to get my own room.  Don't laugh but some of the best people I have met have been in these hospitals!!!!  Anyway, on to saner subjects, j.B. what kind of art do you do?  Do you currently have any works in progress?  I currently have a horrible cold, and am also going through withdrawals.  I have never liked cold medicine because it made me feel like I was hallucinating, which I hate, but having researched dextromethorphan, it apparantly is very much abused.  Anywho, I saw some lying around, and decided, what the hey, and too a vics 44. Wow!!!  Although my heart is beating fast and I don't like the feeling, it has subsided the cold AND the withdrawals symptoms.  Does anyone else have any knowledge about this?

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I certainly agree with your statement that certain people go off their AD's because they kill their creative impulse.  That was perhaps the main reason that I quit them AMA.  Plus they are very good at killing one's libido(sex drive).  

I'm an artist and get very depressed even while on AD's when I cannot "create" something.  While on AD's I was even contemplating suicide and drinking alcohol to excess.  I don't need this type of mood alteration in my life.  I'd rather be me with all of my rough edges than a zombie with a dead soul!  But at least I tried them(AD's)as suggested by several doctors that I have seen.  They just aren't meant for me.  Have you ever seen the movie, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?

[Gloria]

Many pain specialists use Dextromethorphan as an adjunct to short-acting opiates.  The combination of the two allow the dose of the opiate to be reduced.  Dextromethorphan also decreases the liklihood of the individual becoming habituated to the opiate.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

About Cuckoo's Nest:  I felt like the drugs were labotimizing me.  All I wanted to do was sleep and hide out in my bedroom.  Nothing was spontanious at all!  Every time I wanted to do something simple, I would have to sit for an hour planning every little move in advance. That's just not my style!  And many of my friends made comments about my "change".

Anyway, Vicky, I work with wood and steel mostly.  I do a lot of antique reproductions and restorations.  I'm also a machinist.  I consider everything I do a God given talent(art).  And it has paid a lot of bills, too.  My biggest drawback, other than my ego, is seeking perfection in everything I do.  It slows me down too much but you can't rush true art either.

Dextromethorphan?  Well I tried that once, just once.  The giant sized bottle of Vicks Formula 44.  It scared the hell out of me!
Not a good drug in my opinion.  If you are used to opiates, it's a very poor substitute. I think the benzos are much better if you have accsess to them.

[marque]

Hi Neena, Hope this note finds you feeling well. Sorry not getting back to reply.This is clean day 143 for me. You said you were in detox in october.Where you in depression before you used?
I may have had a little myself , but nothing like this has been.
Even though this has really been tough for me, I know I can not return to opiates.You didnt say , Did you detox at home or at a hospital? I went to a hospital , helped me with the symtoms of withdrawl. I couldnt do it at home. I still feel that disoriented
feeling . At first I didnt feel anything ....but thats getting better. And I had Very disturbing nightmares also. I guess its all part of your brain healing. But I do know you cant heal your brain and or mind as long as your using.....Right?
thanks..........................Mark

[marque]

Marcie....Thanks for your reply,..You know Ive been wondering if these antidepressants really do mess with you. Thinking, consentration and creativity. Im a Musician/Songwriter and In the last 15yrs I have written probably 6 CDs of material. I wrote 12 songs last year and recorded them . Since Ive come off Vico's I hardly even pick up my guitar.Except to go play a job
I play about 10 nights a month. But I only do that cause Im contracted. and for the money. I dont daydream like I use to either.Ive been clean for 143 days though.Im Hoping and praying that the old Mark will and can return......Good Luck,,,,,Mark

[Vicky to J.B.]

Wow, Steel is one of my favorite mediums in art and architecture.  I am so glad you are able to make a living from it and sorry the a/d's had screwed that up.  You are right abut the dextro.  I couldn't sleep b/c I had f*&king heart palpatations all night!!!!  The following is an example of what I will do to obtain my meds.  My doc's appt was Wednesday.  This has been the most successful time I have ever had as far as maintenance.  instead of two weeks waiting without, I only had FOUR DAYS.  What do I do, well I call the doc's office and beg them to let me come in today because of my cold.  This puts the staff out because they have to stay late.  I kind of go to a doctor feel good, and he quadruple books.  I'm talking an appt at 3PM and maybe going in to see him at 5:15, if your lucky.  anyway, I drive two hours to my doc.  I didn't know there was a BLIZZARD going on up there!!!!  I got out of his office at 7PM, of course i had to immediatley fill my scripts, and got home at 10:30PM!!!  And I can't bring myself to sew on a freaking button!!!  By the way, I have had valium replaced with xanax.  Iwas having anxiety attacks the valium couldn't touch, so we shall see. My depression is much better.  Thanks for listening to such a long story.  But it sort of makes me understand your wife.  Like me, she risks her life for her addiction...Have to crash, White knuckling the interstate has worn me out!!!!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Your doctor sounds like the one I used to use.  Mine got run out of town eventually and practices in some western state now.  Luckily for me, I found a good doctor and seldom wait more than 30 minutes.  I'm usually in and out in about an hour's time.  
I get Xanax too but don't use them much so I have a supply on hand.  They make me tired so I usually use them near bedtime.

Yeah, the blizzards have been bad here.  I live way out in the county and get snowed in alot.  The county plows us out last.  We have gotten in the habit of stocking up on all the essentials, including meds because getting to town is impossible at times.

I'm glad that your doing better with your depression!  That's the one thing that really gets me, the depression.  And this is the worst time of the year to have it!

Merry Christmas,

J.B.

[Mike P. to Ken]

I think it is a highly telltale point that there are a tremendous amount of artists/creatives here on this board. I myself am a graphic artist working in the advertising industry. tom's a writer. J.B. etc. etc. Eric Clapton once said that artists work on a very intense plane of emotional necessity and that heroin (opiates) are probably the stongest way to kill whatever pain that emotional necessity causes. I wouldn't trade being creative for the world, but it is the creatives historically that have been deemed "mad". It takes almost a twisted sense of self and reality to come up with the things that "entertain" the analytical types out there (our nemesis:) Most doctors are analytical at heart and have a very hard time understanding what is going on in our mind. I can't even begin to explain to my doctor what I feel on an average day. It's one of those things that you have to BE to understand. I think creatives are not only prone to, but by definition are chemically "imbalanced". When I or anyone I know who is creative is placed on anti-depressants to make us "normal" - we invariably don't respond well. "Normal" levels of seretonin and endorphins just really has never been our "reality". To alter that now or ever is really to shake and tamper with the basic core of our personality. It's a society that doesn't "allow" people to be the way we are naturally that must shoulder some of the blame here. We are outnumbered by the mathmatician analysts types that dictate what "normal" "rational" behaviour is. The consequence? We feel like outcasts. We're told we're not "normal". We are told we need medication. We become afraid and ashamed of ourselves. I am an admitted type A, obsessive/compulsive, endorphin challenged individual and you know what - that's okay. That's me. In FACT those are the very traits that allow me to be so good at my job. It's what got me hired - that attention to detail to an obsessive point is the "norm" in my industry. But once I leave the building - I'm "different". I think that MANY of us who are now addicts/depressed etc. are victims of this social pressure more than anything else. It may sound to an analytical person that I'm rationalizing the cause and justifying the use of etc. But it's my reality. Sounds like it is some of yours too.(???) Not allowing someone to "be themselves" is a horrendous thing to do to someone.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

I must tell you that you put down in one post what I have been thinking for such a long time.  You are so correct.  I too am a Type A, obsessive compulsive, endorphin challanged person.  But I am so confused on what to do! Do I go off of the Zoloft (150 mg a day).  A psychiatrist put me on this amount. I heard that they always have you at a higher dosage than say a family doctor would put you on.  Whatever the hell that means.  But I still must say your post was awesome.  I am printing it and will keep it close at hand.  It describes me. It is me. I joke to my doctor that I am a Chronic Pain alright a Chronic Pain in the Ass!
Because I feel like no one understands what I am going through.  And what do I do because of the guilt in the doctors office? I send flowers bring donuts to the doctor to make up for feeling so bad about feeling bad.  I said in another post where my music that I listen to is so important to me.  As I bring up again Aerosmith you can hear their path that they have taken in their songs.  From their days of being so messed up to coming back in to reality.  Pink Floyd there again describes what I feel as I sit in carpool waiting to pick up my kids. I am so sorry that this is long.  I could go on forever! You opened the flood gates on this one.  I thank you so much for the time you took to write this.  It has made my day.  Like I say so much I thank god for you all!  You all are a fine bunch of people.  
Oh and by the way do I slowly (with a Drs help) taper off Zoloft to see who I am?  All I know is that since I have been put on A/D's I have had people tell me that I am not the same person I used to be.  It is like a Zombie state.  If it were not for my kids. They are crazy like their mom (before a/d's)! Thank God!

I will leave you fine people with this anecdote:
My six year old daughter's class was told to write a sentance about ANYTHING.  My daughter writes "The Month is November, I am still in Senior Kindegarten, The teacher cant teach and I am BORED"

Last Year:
What does you mommy like to do?
My daughters answer - Stay in bed all day
(This is when I was in bed alot with Chronic Back Pain)

Again whoever you are please keep posting!

Sincerely,
Marcie!

[tom to TO THREAD]

your words resonate with sanity and intrigue me like a cool breeze calls to the skin at the end of a hot afternoon. I believe you have more to say about the spirituality of the opiate experience. We are not so much suffering a disease as we are feeding an ancient hunger deep down …

give yourself  handle my friend and let's talk …

***@****

[Want2bUNopiated]

Well, everyone I'd like to comment of the anti-depressents and addiction to pain pills. First, the addiction: I  honetly don't know how I got here. It started innocently. I had my first  major surgery 10 years ago and it seems like from the moment I woke and felt the morphine, I was in love. had other medical problems (severe endometreosis) and most of you know the story...the first seven years I was not "addicted," though when I had them (several months of abstinence in b/w) I would abuse them.

I had a hysterectomy and vowed off the hydro's (10/5) which lasted about 7 months. I had suffered with chronic back pain for years, and I began using that as an excuse. Eventually, my Doc referred me to a pain specialist. He prescribed me 120 10/5's + a refill every month. Oh and lets not forget to mention the 120 Soma's. I was like a kid in a candy store. By the end of my hydro addiction, I was taking 40 pills per day. By this past June (2000), I knew I was out of control.

somehow, I managed to keep my job. I took four weeks of sick leave and bean seeing a psychiatrist for my addiction. I don't remember the details of my humiliating visit to the ER--but I literally freaked out going through withdrawals.

Like a programmed robot I still went to my next app't with my pain specialist. He informed me that the hospital called him and he was going to have to terminate me a a patient. Somehow, I talked him out of it. but I also vowed it was the last time and I had a major binge.

I did not tell my psychiatrist however. Three weeks after I was seeing him, he prescribed me Oycontin 40mg 2xd. About two weeks into that, I researched my "safer" time released drug--and realized what I had: a 100% narcotic. Hmmm 40 mg Oxy= 8 percodans! The time release is easily removed with a damp paper towel, and you just chew them. And, with a little research via google I learned the Oxy often "wore off" after 8 hours. I'm sure you can guess what followed--I was allowed to take 40mg every 8 hours.

Well, now I'm out of therapy, and I convinced my pain specialist to give me the same amount of Oxy's. And now I'm runnin out in 12 days--forcin me to spend 16 days drug free. Right now I'm on day #3. My app't isn't until Jan 3, 2001. My tolorance is soooo high it is horrifically frightening!!!! To make matters worse, my best friend gets 240 percodans a month and I trade him my somas for 120 percodans. By then, my tolerance has usually decreased to the point of satisfation. Like the vicous cycle it is (I know every miserable aspect of it), I vow to myself that I will use the oxy's more responsibly. I will see 8 percodans instead of a small seemingly harmless little pill. I'm allowed to take the equivalent of 24 percodans a day. It's crazy to take the equivalent of 64 (this month), and a death wish to take 10 of them in a day= 80 if your not counting.

How did I get here? from 3-4 hydro 10/5 to 360mg of oycodone?

I pray constantly when I'm not using!!!

AHH I long for the days I rode my bike 30 miles a day...when I felt my endorphins and their natural high...not this pathetic existence that I would not wish upon my worst enemy...no, not even on anyone guilty of the most henious crime! It would be cruel/unusual punishment.

I didn't mean for this to be so long...I had my first night of insomnia last night. Forgive me for rambling!

One more thing, music is the only source of comfort I know...besides those fleeting moments I remember the days I walked the higher path and embraced the Lord, loved God with all of my heart  . And truly, I know this is wrong. I am guilty of placing the opiate demon above all else.

Any comments would be welcome. If any of you know of any support groups on the net, please pass them on. Also feel free to e-mail me ***@****

Alice  

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I had to read through your post twice because it had such an effect on me.  It brought back some memories much like the smell of fresh baked bread does. But along with the memories came the physical urges like those brought on by the sound of running water to someone who has to pee real bad.  That said, I want to tell you that you are not alone as long as we are around!

Ten years is a long time to be addicted to opiates and still hang on to life the way you have.  Most street addicts don't live that long.  But you are not a street addict.  You do have something going for you, some inner strength to beat down this addiction.  I'm sure you have heard all about NA and AA by now so I won't go into that.  

For me, it has been a thirty year struggle to get where I am today.  I can't begin to tell anyone the things I've tried in the past to get rid of my addictions.  Today, it is a matter of controlling them on a daily basis. I've never rid myself of the addiction phenomenon, but I can control them one day at a time!
When I get the urge to binge,  I try to think my binge through from start to finish.  It always turns out the same way!  No drugs and withdrawals, panic , desperation, insanity and maybe someday death.  Take care,  J.B.

[marque]

Alice, I Feel for you right now.Prayer has helped me too, I wasnt using quite as long as you maybe 3-31/2 yrs. But I remember those withdrawls were the worst..I remember when my tolerance started to go up fast , I think its was about 8 months before I quit the vico's.I like you started with only 3-4 Vico Es. a day then up to 5-6 by the end of my active addiction was 8-10 aday
Ive only been clean for about 5 mos. now. But the "Protracted abstinence syndrome" has really been tough, they say it will get better....Ill be praying for you....Mark

[G.K.]

Alice, wow you are really in deep sweety forgive my frankness but if you dont get your **** together soon your going to be history.You serve as a example for me too get my **** together, I dont know if it would work for you but some Antidepressants seem to curve the urge for pain meds, in any case wake up honey you are killing yourself fast.Good luck and Please stay alive G.K.

[vickyv to alice]

Hi alice, like everyone on this board, i know exactly what you feel.  Have you ever  driven down the street, watching every car, just absolutely envious because unlike yourself, they are not a victim of this paralyzing addiction.  As I have said several times on this board, i would take all of the worst times in my life a millionfold, plus all the heartache of my neighbors to have never gotten physically addicted to this drug.  I am learning how to maintain, and my goal is to be at place like J.B., where I do not run out because I do not abuse.  I will take as directed.  My addiction has kept my husband and I trapped in this pathetic, siberia-like midwestern state.  I have had opportunities to work in some wonderful places, but am too terrified of leaving my doctor.  My greatest day will be when he either retires or somehow I am cut off.  I can relate to you about the feeling of the first time you had morphine.  My parents were both drug addicts, in fact my mother shot speed when she was pregnant with me.  They were not bad people, just addicts living in the Bronx in Ny.  Then my father found religion, my mother gave up Judaism and they became missionaries.  Anyway, when I was about 10 years old, I discovered a bottle of pills that were marked "for pain" in my mother's dresser.  Like a robot, I immediately knew I wanted these.  I had no idea what they were, but I  knew.  For two hours, I emptied the contents of these capsules into those old "contact cold" capsules, and transfered the cold medicine into the pain capsules.  And I took them.  I don't remember if I got a buzz, but I remember knowing instinctively what my body wanted.  When I was born, I went into a seizure from being addicted in the womb. I was also breech, and apparantly the forceps the doctor used to extract me twisted my neck muscles, which led to the condition that now has enabled me to obtain pain pills.  I don't mean to be so long, but I just wanted to share that moment, because our minds really f**k with us.  I wish I could tell you just tell your doctor you are an addict and everything will be fine, but until you make the decision that you are tired of being sick and tired are willing to brave the  withdrawal no matter what it takes, and not to scare you but it is not over in three days like some doctors will tell you.  However, the sooner you stop, the easier it will be.  I have been on them for ten years and I am down to four hydros a day and your body will get used to it.  But you have to get off of the oxy.  I hear its a real *****.

[To JB, from Alice]

Thank you all for your prayers and support!

Hi JB,
I am certain I would not still be alive had I reguarly been using opiates for the last ten years. Up until I began seeing my pain specialist, there were long periods I didn't take any pain medication...I suppose I thought I was "smarter" than to allow myself to become addicted. Up until 1 1/2 years ago, it was not at all difficult to stop. Of course, I never took them longer than 3 to 4 weeks at a time either. Nevertheless, that all changed when I started seeing the pain doc. Maybe it would not have progressed this far had I realized their addiction potential! Not that these details matter because I'm defintely an addict now!
I DO want my life back. I'm 38 y/o and DO NOT want to die. I just want this madness to end. At least I am on my 4th day UNopiated (although in pain).
I know the best thing would be for me to deal with the pain for my physical pain is nothing compared to my emotional pain and spiritual decay. A non-using friend is going with me to my next app't 1/3 and I am giving her my meds to dole out to me each day. I have proven I cannot trust myself! Do you think this is progress?
By the way, I'm sorry about your wife. I will pray for her too!

Merry Christmas and God Bless!

Alice

[To JB, from Alice]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your prayers, I need all I can get right now! Five months is a great accomplishment. But, please keep up the faith and stay strong. Whatever you do, don't repeat my mistakes. My periods of abstinence have lasted up to 8 months. I so deeply regret buying into the lie that I could "handle it" after so long without. Each time, my addiction escalated into the nightmare it now is. I don't want to scare you--You are doing the right thing.
From where I'm at (4 days), five months clean seems like an eternity. But, on a core level, I know that God does not give us more than we can handle. AND I strongly believe that we were all put here to face certain challenges and learn certain lessons. That being said...When you have moments you are tempted, think about the absolute worse aspects that drove you to leave it behind. In time, day by day you will surely find that those cravings will lose their power. After all, they are just moments!

I read these words of inspiration somewhere...
Although with broken wings you cannot fly,
my how high you can climb.

Merry Christmas...and again thank you for your support.

God Bless!

Alice

[To JB, from Alice]

GK,
I am glad to inspire you (and anyone else) to rid yourself of this beast that only hungers for more and more. I wish I had heeded the warning long before I spiraled so fast/far down to this miserable state. And yes, I do take antideppressants--zoloft 150mg plus trazadone 100mg at night.
The only reason I'm not "history" yet, is by the grace of God. Equally, I believe that my prayers (some of them said in the absence of faith) are being answered or else I would still be in denial. When I feel no faith, I am honest with HIM about that too.
And though it may sound sick/or pathetic, I have actually made a few steps of progress--I have stopped humiliating myself. I have refrained (for the last 7 mo) from seeking out other doctors, or visiting the ER when I run out. And regardless of desperation, I have felt, I have never forged scripts or attempted to purchase them on the streets--although I admit I have been tempted. Now I just suffer through it and pray for strength to persevere/oercome this insideous monster.

God Bless,

Alice

[To JB, from Alice]

Hi Vicki,

First, thank you for sharing some of your struggles with me. Likewise, for your support. I have asked myself at least a thousand times how/why this happened to me. I have felt "morally weak," overwrought with guilt, shame and embarrassment for getting sooo out of control!
In some ways I must be dealing with it though. Yesterday, a very close and well intentioned friend told me to stop being weak--as though it was as simple as deciding to give up milk or soda's. Maybe it is that simple, but it doesn't feel that way. I have given up many "addictive" things with minimal difficulty. In a round-about way, I'm trying to answer your question (do I find myself envious of normal non-addicted people?) Absolutely!
I am so glad to have found this message board. One thing I do know, no one can understand addiction who hasn't been there.
And, in honesty, I didn't understand before it happened to me!
Over the years a few of my friends have joined AA and I have gone to meetings a few times for support. When I heard their stories of near demise/ruined years of their lives, I was guilty of doing the same thing my friend did to me. I'd gone from drinking quite heavily in college to drinking responsibly, why couldn't they?

Now I know why of course.

As far as telling my doc, thereby cutting off my source, I'm not ready to go that far. After all, considering that alcoholics have easy access to liquor, they must find the strength not to stop in a bar, or down the beer/wine isle in the grocery store for that matter.

Right now, my goal is to use my meds responsibly. Since I've proven I cannot trust myself right now, I am going to give my meds to a trusted friend to disperse to me on a daily basis. My plan is to taper from there. 2 mo taking them as prescribed, and then the third month taking 2xd instead of 3xd. And of course, to continue refraining from visiting the ER, seeking out other docs or any other available means. Right now, I pray for the strength to tell my doc that I don't need the soma's anymore (since I trade them for percodans anyway). That will at least eliminate my one other source.

I hope I can find whatever it takes to succeed. I have done as much research as possible on tapering. How were you able to stop abusing your meds so much/take them more responsibly? Also, do you know if tapering also lessons the compulsion to go on a binge? You mentioned that your body does adjust. How about your mind? I do have chronic pain in my back from a variety of serious injuries. I want to be in a place where I only take pain meds for physical pain...not for instant europhia or to numb my emotional pain!

I did not mean for this to be so long...another night of near insomnia (slept from 7:00PM-11:PM) has me rambling! This is day #4...thank God I am off of work until next Wed. Will I feel any relief by then?

Well Vicki, keep up the good work...4 days early is better than 15 days! You are at least making progress. And I'm coming to strongly believe strength is gained by progress.

Hope you have a merry christmas!

God Bless all of us who are suffering

Alice

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

You may be aware that I let my wife control my meds and this works just fine for me.  At first I hated the whole idea but after a month of smooth sailing, I began to accept the fact that I could not be trusted alone with narcotic meds.  BTW my AA sponsor was the one who suggested we do it this way.  I hope it works out for you as well!

Though things are anything from perfect in my life today, I feel I've made a lot of progress.  Spirituality is probably the greatest thing I have going for me.  Not that I've become religious and church going or bible quoting or anything like that.  I just feel more human and have some real emotions like never before.  I actually care about people and want to do well by them.  My family is closer now than ever before and I thank my God every chance I get.  Without this sense of spirituality in me and left to my own devices, everything would be totally screwed up.  Today I have a sense of peace, happiness and well being.  You are going to be just fine, Alice.  Trust me.

[vickyv to alice]

Alice, for me, I finally got so disgusted with the withdrawals that I had to make a choice.  My husband and I discussed the possibility of what I like to call "good hydro management."  By using this, you may not always get the euphoria, but you will never have to experience the terrible withdrawals again.  However it does take will power, and while having someone hold them is good, unless you yourself have made the decision you no longer want to go through withdrawal, you will only obsess more over the fact that you don't have any.  When I am tempted to take a whole hydro, when I really am not feeling withdrawal, I take a half.  I got used to taking halves and conditioned my mind to believe if I took a whole one it would be too strong.  Again, you have to hit bottom and decide you would rather have no withdrawals than the immediate gratification.  It can be done.  You don't have to face the mountain of quitting.  by reducing and stablizing your meds, you can live a pain free life, and not fret so much over the withdrawal.  Your body will adjust.  It will not happen overnight, but if you taper down to a half every two hours or so, you will find relief.  It all boils down to which is more important:  The euphoria which will not last if you do a large amount on a regular basis, or the security of knowing you will not have to go through withdrawal.  Merry Christmas, I will be off the board for a few days for a trip.  Be safe and love to everyone.  Vicky

[marque]

Hello Alice, How are you doing ? How was work? I know you said in your post earlier that today was your back to work day. Ive been praying for you asking God to help you thru this time. Today is day 153 clean for me. I got me a sponsor in NA last Tues night. My cravings somtimes are a real bad at times but somehow I manage thru.Im so grateful for this forum and these other addics writing about there lifes. It lets us know were not alone. I feel that my first couple of months clean for me I wasnt craving so bad because the anxeity and feeling of numbness was enough to keep me off these opiates. But as Im starting to feel again a little my cravings are stronger and I feel like just getting high. Cause somtimes my depression gets really bad and I know that the vico's were a great anti depresant for me.
I have other Issues and stressers in my life that make the drug so appealing. Well better go for now. I just had you on my mind.
till next time...................Mark

[need strength]

hey all,
after reading this board's messages and seeing the replies, i hope i can make it ....
i am pretty much like everyone else. i have back pain and still have it. i take waaaaaay too many lort's a day. i am down to 4. tomorrow is the last day and i will be speaking to my neuro tonight about this whole screwed up situation. i am just asking for a bit of support and some empathetic ears. i am thainking you in advance!

and to those who are wondering if they have a problem ... you probably do. i myself am 29 and pretty fit. though i smoke, i am extrememly active. i practice brazilian jiu jitsu, powerlift, run, fish (through the middle of winter!) and am usually pretty busy. DO NOT THINK THAT JUST B/C YOU DO A FEW LAPS, RUN A FEW MILES OR DO A FEW BENCH PRESSES THAT YOU CAN NOT GET ADDICTED! i am walking talking proof! i have the six-pack stomach and V-tapered upper body to prove it. TRY your best to make some steps. it seems everyone here is so unerstanding. USE THEM!

also, if i can be of support or help to ANYONE else, please reply and i will e-mail you.

to everyone else, best wishes and continued success!

will

[citamama]

QUESTION - since narcotic abuse makes me stop producing my own endorphins, how long will it take, after quitting narcotics, for my body to start producing natural endorphins again, and will it ever go back to normal again?

[sadinmichigan]

yes it will go back to normal but it takes your body time. ..This is a old thread and it might help to post a new question so that it will be seen by more of us..welcome to med-help ..