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4810126 tn?1503942735

'Guard Up' -- Best Ways -- Pride/Humility

Hello Friends & Fellow Comrades-In-Arms. This Is My First Ever Question On The Forum. I've Been Thinking A Lot Lately About The Mysterious Process Of:

1) What Finally Makes A Certain Time -- The Very Last Time We Use? What Made It The 'Aha' Time For You?

2) I've Also Been Wondering About What Others Consider Their Most Powerful 'Motivators' Or Techniques When The Cravings Come Whispering -- The Best Way They 'Guard Up'.

3) Lastly I'd Love To Hear If Others Feel (As I Do) That How We Deal With Pride and How Seek Humility Are Key Elements In Getting Clean & Staying That Way. Really Curious On Your Take & Experience With This One.

So, I'd Really Appreciate Any Experiences And Words Of Wisdom You Might Be Willing To Share re: The Above.  Whether You Choose To Answer A Single Question Or Several, For The Sake Of Clarity, (And My Dulled, Sleepless Faculties), Could You Please Use The Numbers In Front Of The Questions In Your Response. Thank You All!
Best Answer
1970885 tn?1435860428
1 - More than ever before in my 15 years using, the pills had complete and total control of my life. Wife, children, work, friends, etc., etc., were alway second. I cancelled a long-planned vacation because I wasn't sure if I'd get a refill in time (lied to my family about why it was cancelled). I didn't go with my wife when she took my daughter back to college (out of state) because - you guessed it - I wasn't sure if I'd have pills. My kids are 24, 20, and 18. For 15 years they came second. All the wasted time finally caught up to me and I could not look at myself in the mirror. Not a dramatization, the truth.
2 - The way I've stayed clean for the last 17 months is because of the three step plan I put in place, with the most important piece being telling my secret. I found that once everyone knows (who needs to know, i.e., family, doc, dentist, etc) it is very, very hard to relapse. When my head starts talking to me, I talk to my wife. I've posted this before - medicine cabinets, people I know who've just had surgery or dental work (including my children) were and are sources. But since my wife knows this, she helps keep me headed in the right direction (watches me like a hawk).
3 - Finally pride - after all this time I have none left. I'm working on living a life and doing things that I can be proud of, but that will take some time. For me, pride had very little to do with my addiction. The minute I started lying to my children most of my emotional insides were trashed.
K
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4810126 tn?1503942735
Thanks to you both! I really appreciated your answer beebea & for sharing your story. Walk Tall - Can't tell you how wonderful it's been to see you on the forum so much recently, my man. You're doing great! (Did you check out FourJay's reply as well as Kyle's, Also Ricart's different bits (and the 'pithy' Back2Me?)
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Avatar universal
1) My "Aha" moment? 4 cops using a battering ram to break down my door. Oh the days when I wish I had never tried crack to help with my pain. People do desperate and silly things when they're hurting.

2) My most powerful motivator for not going back is not a fear of going to jail ( that was no picnic, but I left relatively unscathed ( it helps when you know people inside already I guess ). I just think about how it felt when I'd run out... the sinking feeling in my chest, the panic, and desperation that I always felt when I didn't have ( although there weren't too many days where I didn't have , the ones I do remember before getting clean sort of still haunt me). Sounds shallow and unenlightened right? Wrong, I'm not too proud to admit to my family when I'm struggling. I have cravings, dreams where I'm using ( I like to call them nightmares to continue the negative stigma I've created in my head towards this dope).  I feel weak sometimes. Thankfully a loved one is never too far away, and I'm not afraid to call someone when I'm struggling...

However, I certainly used to be, and in certain situations, I still am...

3) I chose to include my family in my recovery after the fact. Good old pride kicking me in my *** bone. I had shied away from them for years and avoided seeing them until I was clean and knew I was ready to tell them what happened - not that they didn't have an idea anyway -( I did tell my older brother and my dad, because I trusted them not to judge me ( they're no saints by any means and were nothing but supportive of me ).

To this day, my significant other's family has no idea, they are the type to point fingers and talk crap, they truly believe they're superior ( despite obvious alcoholism under the guise of connoisseurship  ). I have not felt that great about being dishonest with them, however I know better than to trust them with the information.

I have managed to get some pride in myself back, I have been clean for almost 5 years now, run my own support group to help cope with the disease that led me to use in the first place, and draw strength from my close friends who have also gone through something similar with pills or ice etc and also made it.
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3048701 tn?1486130938
Thank you, Annie.   The framework that emerged from this thread is outstanding.  We must not let our pride get in the way.  We must develop a way to make it as hard as possible for ourselves to relapse.  All other points, are very well reasoned.  
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4810126 tn?1503942735
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you bravest & brightest! I found every single one of your responses invaluable. I thank you for digging deeply and for being so thoughtful. One of the reasons I posted this was for one of my 'people' to see the responses. So, in choosing a 'Best Answer' I chose the one that illustrated the issue he most needed to see. It was a close run thing between Kyle505 & FourJays (about coming our to those around you.) I wish I could give them to every response but chose 'blind' between the two.

Thanks so much again! Gratitude, Strength & Respect to you all.
Annie
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1796826 tn?1578874779
2) I'm not sure why, but I haven't had any cravings to speak of. I've had my DOC put in my face twice and have had zero temptation to use. I haven't seriously considered using at any point. I maintain my guard at all times.

3) Pride cometh before the fall. I was and am willing to abase myself in any way needed to get and remain clean. For me, utter submission to my powerlessness was the Way. Coincidentally, this realization has made me stronger than I have ever been before in my life.

3) No "aha" moment for me. Just a gradual accumulation of negativity. My primary motivation for using was that I loved the sensation. I was willing to put up with many side-effects for a long time, but eventually the side-effects outweighed the enjoyment. When I quit cold turkey, I felt like I was going off a diving board blindfolded. It was my first, and so far only, attempt to quit - I had no idea what to expect. I consulted an MD and an addiction therapist, and credit them with giving me a workable plan. I threw myself headlong into recovery using the principals of 2) above. I had the belief that my life and future were at stake. Failure not an option, retreat not an option, forward, one foot after the other.

So far, so good.
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1827057 tn?1397520277
I will probably end up buying molasses this weekend because of this !  ;)
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495284 tn?1333894042
COMMUNITY LEADER
It is really late right now and i am tired so i am still not going to answer anything in detail.  

2.  Sponsor, meetings, my coffee group, MH and my Grandmas Molasses.  I am sure you are wondering about the last one....When i get a craving i reach for this and spoon out molasses and lick the spoon.  It takes me back to the days of grandmas house,  It was a safe haven for me.  It always smelled good in her house and she made some kick butt ginger cookies.  If i looked tired she would give me a tsp, of molasses for the "tired blood" look!!  It works wonders!!
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Avatar universal
For now, #2. When I have a craving or start thinking maybe it would be ok if I have a drink (I think about alcohol primarily, strange, because pills were my life for many years) I always force myself to play the tape all the way through. I absolutely know that I will not have A drink, I will drink the whole bottle, and then likely drink again the next day and so on. I can't fool myself into thinking I will stop at one, I know better. Another thing I do, almost simultaneously, is remember how proud I am of the clean time that I have, and how horrible I would feel if I had to start over, which I would. I remember how good it feels to be someone that my family, my husband, my friends, can depend on. There are so many different things that help me deal with cravings and thoughts, thank god.
I will try to answer the others later, I still have to pack the kid's stuff for camping:)
Allison
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Avatar universal
Oh, Annie, this is a great post; really had to think about these and how to organize and fit SO many thoughts into a few short (well medium sized) answers!

1)  My last time using occurred due to circumstances beyond my control as an online order I placed did not ship and left me unexpectedly without pills (and no way to get any) for at least 5 days.  But more significant to me was WHEN it happened; I got the news about the shipment about mid way through a 24 hour period of time I spent (literally) sitting/laying on the floor next to my (semi-conscious) daughter waiting for her fever to break.  She had contracted a really nasty strep infection; had her in the ER where they gave her a shot and massive doses of antibiotics.  Once home I just could NOT get her fever down to a safe range, despite alternating doses of Tylenol and Motrin, applying cool compresses, dragging her in the shower, etc.  My husband was out of town on business and my other daughter away at school.  Major soul searching ensued that night as I fretted over her - I thought about all of the losses I'd incurred (and imposed on my family) over the past 15 years (when I first started on the pills).  My kids were now young adults; I lost friends, walked away from a professional career, spent thousands of dollars and almost lost my life on a few occasions.  When I got the message about the cancelled shipment, I was like, OK, I'm done....it just did NOT matter at that moment.  Thank God she came around by the next morning.  The withdrawals set in and it ****** big time, the most intense few days of my life, but I have not taken a pill since that day and have never looked back.

2)  The biggest motivation for me to get and stay clean are without a doubt, hands down, my daughters and my husband, and the rest of my family. I am still working on forgiving myself for the years I "checked out" and the fact that I almost left them to grow up without a Mom on more than one occasion.  I have 'come clean' to everyone and anyone in my life that would listen.  All of my sources have been cut (or at least I thought so until a recent incident popped up unexpectedly - the threat was extinguished; no harm done - a topic to be explored later :).  I also credit this site and the friends I have made here as another major safeguard to my sobriety.  I know that in a matter of seconds any support I would need is a text, a call or a message away.  

3)  For me, pride is a big factor in staying clean as well.  I am very proud of what I have done and because I have come out to everyone in my life, I would be extremely embarrassed and defeated if I were to relapse and then have to explain myself.  I also know however, that it happens to people all the time and that I will NEVER, ever be able to just assume that I "have this" unconditionally.  And I am humbled every day by those that have done this before me and have clean time well in excess of mine; it is again, another thing that keeps me on the right path and reminds me just how new I still am to this whole process.  So - proud of the accomplishment for sure, but know that this is something I will have to protect and 'tend to' forever :)
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Avatar universal
I will answer no1 For me it was sitting with my ex smoking Herion & Crack & not caring & I had had a smoke and something snaped what? I don't know I just knew 2013 was a time for a huge change in my life since then iv been detoxing off methadone & when things get tough a higher power helps me through That 1 day as I know I'm not strong enuff myself (I'm an addict aren't I) Then I just feel to my knees Gave up & admitted I can't do this myself. I was humbled & striped to the bone. My lowest point ever, I'm now finding I'm at a cross roads & iv took the first step to recovery!!! To some its spiritual to others its health. We all have our own reasons Which means nothing if we can't succeed. But to me its spiritual in progress & its a 2way thing I do the work & with the greater power one day I will be clean. I will think about the other 2!!! Are we in the mood to be enlightened today then???
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1198664 tn?1368647812
"Your ego is not your amigo"
I love that quote.
Gets to the heart of the whole pride thing.
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1827057 tn?1397520277
# 2      My most powerful motivator and/or technique is the one that works for me next. I use any and all that have proven to work for me in the past.
  At the top is probably taking care of myself physically. I run every day and that thing may very well be the most important as it provides some of the endorphin boost that I craved when I was using.   It also keeps me on an even keel and above board as far as depression goes because I struggle sometimes with being disinterested and finding pleasure in things.
  Another would be a more cognitive behavior oriented approach that helps me to recognize my dangerous thoughts regarding using for fun or to relive boredom.etc.  These two things have pretty much helped me to be clean and sober for 4 out of the last 5 years (two relapses-one for 8 months the other for 3 months)
      I also now really make sure I do not spend much if any time with people who are still using.  Had I done this before I would likely have 5 years now with no relapses but who knows,I could have also gotten hit by a bus.
     I also go to meetings in a treatment facility with inpatients. It helps to remind me of where I could be if I screw up again.The looks on the faces there makes it very easy to remember. It is sometimes hard to recall when I have been sober for a while. I had read that the addictive mind hijacks the part of the brain that makes a woman forget the pain of childbirth so she will not be deterred from having more. So it makes us forget how bad the bad actually was.
   # 3 I am not a really prideful person. I don't relish and advertise all of my accomplishments. I kind of think that if I can accomplish it then it must not be that important.  I really did not need to be torn down or demeaned to gain ground over my addiction . I needed to be built up to be able to believe in myself and realize that I can accomplish things like goals and that also includes sobriety. All of us are different though and that is for sure.  If we are too far one way or the other we need to try and aim for the center. I am always thinking about working on this. Sometimes I don't work on it though . I guess that is a problem within a problem but as I have heard so many times ,if we go to sleep at night and we did not have to use or drink, then we have done a good job and should be proud.
    
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511409 tn?1373395178
P.S.: I broke the poverty cycle. My boys have everything they need material wise..... Just not a very good home life. My relationship with their mother has not been what kids need. And I blame myself.
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511409 tn?1373395178
Hi. Before I put my 2 cents in you need to know I have been battling this addiction for a long... long time. And I only have a few clean days in right now.  So my answers are more from a general standpoint. So here goes. #1 My "Aha" moment, which to me, was when I  made the decision that I no longer wanted my life dictated by pills. Was in the spring of 2008. My wife left me, my business went under and on a Wednesday afternoon, I woke up on the couch covered in blood. You see not only was I ingesting hydros, I was snorting them as well. And my nasal septum ruptured. I ran to the bathroom to clean myself up.... And I seen myself in the mirror.    I immediately broke down. Cause it dawned on me then and there.... that my kids could have found me like that.  Covered in blood and snot.....dead.  And I'll never get that image out of my head.  I am still, to this day, struggling to break the possession this disease has on me.  But I think it's that imagery, that pale face of death. Starring back at me from the mirror, the put the "Aha" in my head.                   #2 My boys. I grew up without a father. And I have been through blood and fire doing all I could to protect them from the pain of poverty and a broken home. Unfortunately, I think I may have failed in my attempts in this. I'm still fighting/struggling with my demons and addiction. And my relationship with their mother, regardless of fault, is all but over. But, I am still their father.  And will be until they put me in the ground. And I want to spend as much time with them as I can. CLEAN time.
As for #3... not sure I deserve to answer that one. My clean times may not qualify. But I will say that here.. right here on this site, I find hope. I find inspiration. And I have found that maybe, just maybe. I can overcome this.  It's been from the encouragement of those who didn't  look down on me, that I finally started to go to meetings. And it's in the meetings and aftercare that I hope to begin the rest of my life.  Just have to learn to accept some things first.  Hope my answers didn't come off wrong. I'm still fighting.
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5347058 tn?1381188426
OK #3... I am not a prideful person by nature. I have no problem asking for help when I need it. Thank goodness...that's how I found all of the wonderful people on this site! I think that it is very important for me to listen to the suggestions and advice of others that have walked this road before me. I don't have all of the answers, actually, I don't have many at all. I just try to stay open to all of the wonderful , positive people in my life and be sure to ask any time I'm unsure or need help.
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4522800 tn?1470325834
PS.. I sure could not do this alone! I go to both AA/NA and have a Sponsor..I also have Support at Home and Some of My Buds I call on here like you sister..Thanks for being here for me always!!!!
Bless us ALL!
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1696489 tn?1370821974
(((HUGS))) EvolverU! :-)  I am happy to be of service here for you.  I have journal entry called 'my psych ward story'.  I also keep a copy of it om y own personal documents.  I went into it there just now, and bolded the parts pertaining to your questions, most of which are toward the bottom.  I'm not sure if the bold will show up here but I'm gonna try anyway, here goes.  I erased it, didn't work.  I'mma go back in and see if I can do a capitalization.
YAY! That worked! :-)  If it causes more questions than answers, please message me and I will be happy to explain!  Blessings - Blu


This is not a question.  It is an odyssey of anxiety and depression.  My hope is that maybe something in ths will help someone in need of something that actually worked for me.  My childhood was perfect, I was the baby of the family, with doting mom, older brother, and older sister.  When I was 15, my sister and her three young children died in a house fire.  I was beyond devastated, and unconsolable.  I felt like she left me right when I needed her the most.  My poor mother was in no shape to be of any help to me.  In school, I got into the bad crowd, smoked pot, smoked cigarrettes, drank alcohol, and was very promiscuous.  I literally did every bad thing a kid could do.  I was hurt and angry, and refused to listen when anyone tried to tell me to stop.  Whenever I found myself alone, with no one in earshot, I would just stand and scream, long and full of pain, until my throat hurt and my head was banging.  I began to have periods of dissasociation (sp?) and numbness in my extremeties.  I continued to act out whenever I could, barely graduated high school, abd refused to go to college.  Then my life became a slow but steady more downward spiral.  I dated men my mother didnt like, just because she didnt like them.  I worked sporadically.  Started having babies at 18, four of them altogether, fathered by men who wre irresponsible in awful ways.  I became convinced that I was worthless, and stopped caring about alot of things.  I was abused in every possible way, and convinced it was my fault.  The years went on, with me basically trying to raise my kids, and not doing a good job of it.Finally, when my youngest was only a year old, I met a man who wanted to get to know me.  Of course I knew I'd mess this up too, or he would.  So I went through my motions of not being nice to him, pushing him, testing him, to see where things would break.  And came to the conclusion that this guy was a flipping rock who would not be put off, no matter what I threw at him.  He cooked and cleaned for me, and babysat my kids while I worked.  When I cried, he held me.  He listened when I spoke, even if I wasn't being nice.  By then I had already begun a regimen of Zoloft through my moms doctor, in an effort to calm me down.  That worked for awhile, and I was keeping jobs longer.  I found myself falling in love with this man, whom I will call James.   He fell in love with me and my kids at the same time.  I started to be nice to him alot more often.  We began our (now) 17 year relationship, and enjoyed a good life for several years.  Then I suffered a severe nervous breakdown that lasted two weeks, during which I had to be cared for like a small child by my family (thank God for them).  This was due to stress at work, and the doctor added Klonopin to my Zoloft.  I stayed on that a few more years, feeling a bit better, but I could still feel the anxiety inside, waiting to come out.  I suffered panic attacks regularly.  The doctor put me on Rispiridone and Ambien.  Again a bit of releif, but not enough.  Stress at work continued until I couldn't take anymore and I quit.  My thinking there was not only to get away from this major stressor, but to give myself a bit of a break while I looked for more work.  I found a handful of jobs, and all of them brought the anxiety back full force.  I attempted suicide, twice.  My doctor became uncooperative at that point and wanted me committed right away, I refused.  I changed doctors to one that would not only work with me, but also had a psychologist in his practice, who would also see me, and share their findings about me with each other, which I found to be a great idea.  He took me off rispiridone and Zoloft, which he deemed unnecessary, and put me on effexor.  He warned me that it would take awhile (weeks) to work.  I took it as he said to, and gave it plenty of time to work.  Nothing.  Zero improvement.  I was sleeping 16 hours a day, and rarely left my house.  I couldnt work at all like that.  I WAS ALSO HAVING SOME SORT OF (WHAT I WAS TOLD AFTER A CT SCAN) HARMLESS PSEUDO-SEIZURE ACTIVITY, WHICH SCARED ME TO TEARS.  ONE DAY, TWO WEEKS AGO, I WAS WOKEN UP BY SEIZURE ACTIVITY SO SEVERETHAT MY BODY WAS JUMPING EVERY FEW MINUTES.  I TRIED DISTRACTING MYSELF, EATING A MEAL, SHOWERING, THEN FINALLY THOUGHT A NAP MIGHT HELP.  AS SOON AS I GOT INTO BED, I JUST FREAKED.  I DIDN’T WANT TO SPEND ONE MORE DAY IN BED.  I SAT THERE AND SCREAMED AND CRIED AND SHOOK, AND HAD TO CALL FOR HELP BECAUSE I WAS HYPERVENTILATING. At the local hospital, I was given the opportunity to enter a mental and behavioral health ward at another hospital not far away.  The thought scaed me to death.  But continuing to feel awful evry day scared me worse.  I agreed to go, signed all the papers, and was whisked off in an ambulance to ST. Mary's Hospital in Jefferson City, Missouri.  Once there, I continued to panic until I was given a shot of trazadone, which I found comforting, and was able to listen calmly while a nurse xplained how the ward worked.  I would not be restrained unless I became a danger to others, my room would never be locked, and I would have 24 hour access to the halls and activity rooms in the t-shaped ward, as well as any help I needed from the nurses.  I would not be allowed outside, or even off the ward until the hospital psychiatrist said I was allowed to go home.  That could take three days or three weeks, depending on how much help I needed.  I had a room mate, who was a very nice girl.  She helped me find my way around, and explained the rules of conduct, which were all easy and reasonable.  THE NURSES WERE AWESOME.  I GOT DETERMINED TOMAKE THE BEST OF MY TIME THERE.  I NEEDED IT TO WORK.  I ATE MY MEALS, SAW THE DOCTOR, GOT MEDS THAT WORKED FOR REAL (SIX OF THEM!), WENT TO EVERY GROUP AND ACTIVITY MEETING.  I SPOKE UP AND ASKED QUESTIONS.  I HELPED TO COMFORT OTHERS WHO WERE IN DISTRESS.  I JOINED PEER CONVERSATIONS AND LEARNED HOW TO COPE.  I TOOK NOTES LIKE A MANIAC. I SHOWERED, MADE MY BED, WORE CLEAN CLOTHES, AND ENJOYED GOOD PERSONAL HYGEINE  I TOL MY DOCTOR THAT I WOULD NOT LEAVE UNTIL I WAS BETTER (in spite of everyone else who just wanted out).  One day, on a Thursday, I saw the doctor, and as usual, he asked me how I was feeling.  Something in me clicked, like puzzle peices coming together, and I grinned really big: I felt really good!  He saw all this on my face and said 'you are going home today.'  And he grinned right back at me.  I had a whole booklet of skills to take home, plus scripts for all my meds plus a refill.  I was home by that afternoon.  EVER SINCE, MY LIFE IS WONDERFUL.  IHAVE STRUCTURE IN MY LIFE, AND I AM HAPPY TO GET OUT OF BED IN THE MORNING.  I DO NOT NAP AT ALL.  I GO TO BED ONLY AT BEDTIME.  I GO OUT AND SOCIALIZE WITH FRIENDS, SHOPPING, ETC.  NO JOB YET, BUT THAT WILL COME AT THE RIGHT TIME.  MY LIFE IS MINE AGAIN.  I hope this story is useful to someone... - Blu


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4522800 tn?1470325834
Oh Boy!! There is so much..I was just over analyzing my past last month that put me in a real bad spin..I am just going to push forward and move on..
But since I have used and boozed on & off since I was 14 I thought most of the drugs I tried came with each decade or like 60-70-80-90 on & on..I was always able to walk away when I got tired did not even know what a w/d was about..I was kind of on the Mt.Mamma natural thing..Ha!! I know drugs are not natural but I thought that some things where you know what I mean!!
Then I had real bad pain and got only 20 hydos a month. I have had the opiates before but used them right and when I was done walked away and still no w/d..But then 16 years ago the hydo/oxy thing got real out of hand..Someone turned me on to a Methadone..So I thought well I just needed one and not 20 to get the Buzz..So there it went off and when I had my Dr taper down a bit I was running short again..And then others told me about the adderral and wow what a buzz together and the benzo at night to come down..I was passing out standing up in the kitchen and my Hub would come out and yell at me..I was eating cereal or candy and was nodding out and waking up with it all over me..I even had food in my throat.. I knew it was a matter of time that I was going to die..I could not keep getting the lift during the day to take a pill and come down..It was just really, really out of control..That is why I had no time to taper..I had to just do it and get it over with..
Now I have been temped with things and sometimes have a real hard time living in my own skin..I learned alot about the Pleasure Part of the Brain called survival and it is so true how that tape can play the "oh just one more" or Try this it will make you feel better" This is why for me I really know now that I can not even go there at all..I do not have the cravings for Booze because it has been over 8 years but i just sub one for another..So the Booze is my worst fear out here now..it is so so easy to get and only takes a bunch of pennies to get a Tall Boy..So for me some of my experiences I have encountered lately show me I am differently a Addict and I will always be..I have to just learn to deal with it because there is no easy way out..Plus as time goes by I do like my Brain and Memory returning back..the Dr said it could take a Year or Two so I know Time is the Greatest Healer and I just have to slow down and take it min by min and day by day!!!! lol
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5347058 tn?1381188426
OK, #2 I really can't answer.  I have not really had to deal with a lot of the cravings yet. I'm sure that will change when I least expect it. I will be very interested to see what others have to offer and what tools they use to fight their cravings.
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1827057 tn?1397520277
Ha funnyweaver. @sarah yea.i have to really think on this.i like these posts that make you think
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Avatar universal
I heard it, "If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans."
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5347058 tn?1381188426
I only have the answer to #1 right now. I was so tired of taking vicodin every single day. I had a legitimate script and always took it the way I was supposed to. It scared me that I relayed on this drug so much. I come from a family of addicts and whether it is genetic or a learned behavior, I know that somewhere inside me it is laying in wait. So I guess that I was aware at the rate I was going it was only a matter of time before I got out of control. I am like Ric and superstitious about saying never. What is the saying... we say never and God laughs. I can tell you that I have not had any drugs in over a month and have not had anything to drink in over a year. I plan on it staying that way.
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495284 tn?1333894042
COMMUNITY LEADER
I need to think about this one as there are so many answers so i need to write it down and pick the top 3...
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