If I were you, I would stop now while you can still do so without too much discomfort.
I know the urge is strong to just keep enjoying the pills and deal with any "ramifications" later.
But you just don't know what it's like to always be afraid you're going to run out of pills, to always be hiding and lying and dreading that someone will find out, to be raiding the medicine cabinets of your friends and family like some sleazy thief. Get out now while you can!
Never used the tyro, but heard it works. Maybe someone who knows can post here?
But I agree with schlub. Compared with most of us, you have a very light habit and not as tough a road to hoe should you decide to stop. I'd gladly switch places with you if I could, and were I in your position I would simply taper down, stop, go through the flu-like ****, and consider yourself fortunate to have gotten out when you did, before you were eating 20 a day and going anywhere and through anything to get 'em. Get out now and most importantly, don't look back! You're better off without them and if you have any doubts about that, stick around here and we'll help you through as best we can.
You can do it, you're in a good position, and I don't mean to make it sound easy, but your intake is not very high. My personal opinion is that your withdrawal will not be all that bad, although that is a relative thing. Taper down or just quit and pick a weekend you know you can spare for two days of the flu basically. Then there's the mental anguish that follows, but if you really want to quit in your hear, you can tackle it. Some will snort with derisive laughter when I suggest going to an AA or NA meeting if you have trouble staying clean on your own (since I am not an AA follower myself and have voiced that opinion here) but it certainly can't hurt! Good luck kicking, and when you start to panic, think about the life you will be living without worrying about these stupid pills...they aren't worth it.
You should be able to cut back and stop fairly easily if your taking 4-5 a day. Since you haven't gone thru this before the fisrt withdrawal will be faily mild especially with the low amount your on. Everyone in the above posts hit the nail on the head, stop now and get away before you end up like most of us here who take 3, 4 and some 5 times as many as you do each day.
Your withdrawal symptoms are mild, about what I would have expected. A big part is psychological, which you should be able to deal with by going to an AA meeting or two.
Think about how you'd be doing if you were writhing on floor screaming quite literally in pain, wth conculsive leg-kicking tremors that are driving you insane and horribvle diarhhea and vomiting and ever single bone in your body (even the small ones) throbbing in blinding pain.
And that's the easy part. Very few recovering addicts quit during this intense phase of phsyical witrhdrawl in the first 5-6 days or so. Most relapse and start using again during the next 2-10 weeks, when they are paralyzed by the most intense lethargy and depression they've ever felt. You can sit and agonize for half an hour over whether or not you have the energy to even get up out of your chair and go to the bathroom. And somehow you're supposed to show up for work feeling like this?
Oh yeah, and on top of all that, you can't sleep. It just seems like an impossible place to reach -- a mental state relieved enough of this overwhelming lack of energy and motivation to let you actually fall asleep -- and you go many days without it.
I'm not trying to scare you. I'm psyching myself up for what I've got to face 24 hours from now when I try to quit once again. I've got a family that needs me. And man, I'd give anything to be in the position you're in now with such a mild addiction to beat.
You and I are running parallel fights here. I'm getting ready to start yet another tapper down. I'm actually thinking about going to my doc and fessing up with what has happenned, and get some med help from him this time to get through it. That's something I'm contemplating. Swallow my pride and do whats right if not for me for my family. I'm tired of living the lie. I can tapper all the way from 15-20/day to zip in about a month but then I go right back to it.
Your nightmare description hit it right on the head. Could you imagine if they made people sign that type of disclaimer before they got a narcotic prescription filled. Sure would open peoples eyes to powerful **** they are messing with.
Best wishes in your fight. Keep posting doing your fight and let us know how your doing, I'll try to do the same. Nod
Thankls, Nod. I took my last pill at 5 AM, and it's now 12 hours later and I'm starting to feel some withdrawal. But I have Buprenex, a miracle drug for helping you detox with less pain, so I should be more or less okay with the physical distress.
It's what comes in the 2n week -- that paralyzing lethargy and depredssopn -- that I'm worried about. That's when most detoxing addicts relapse.
But I won't. My family needs me.
Nod, you should think about telling your doctor. Ask him to prescribe some Buprenex to help you (it's not yet FDA-approved for detox -- that'll come later this year -- but it is approved for pain).
Hiding is what kills us. There are no addicts in existence who told their families or friends or physicians that they were developing an addiction problem. None. They don't exist. You know why? Because anyone who told someone what was happening got help and never became a full blown addict.
It's the hiding and lying that kill us.
Think about telling your doctor, and even your wife.
You're fighting for your life, man. Use every weapon you have -- and coming out from hiding is the biggest weapon to help you get clean that you could ever possess.
Anyway, whatever you do, I'm here. Keep me posted on your progress.
Wow, your words hit me right on the head. What you said is so true about me (and most addicts.) I have come sooo close to fessing up to my wife but just seem to fall short. Same with my doctor. Its time I come clean and quite fooling myself and those who care about me.
I have the will power to tapper off, just staying off seems to be my undoing. If I could get clean for 2months or so I think I will start seeing the light. I just tappered down from 15-20 to zip in 5 weeks. The zip lasted for 2 whole days, then my new script came in. You guessed it..right back to 15-20, but now down to enough to do my month long tapper to get back off again. What an ugly cycle.
You mentioned Burpenex which I am going to go and speak to my doctor about. I need pain relief, just got in trouble with the excess. Couple questions on Burpenex: It sounds too good to be true - it will relieve pain and not get you "high," and help with the opiate withdrawal as well? Will there be withdrawal when you go off the Burpunex like other opiates? Does this come in a pill?
Schlub, keep up the great work. Your gonna do it! So am I!
Take care, Nod
Actually, many detox centers have their patients squirt the injectable Buprenex under their tongue -- which is clearly not as potent a route of administration, but avoids the probably risky idea of giving addicts (at least heroin addicts) needles.
Rumor is that the FDA will approve this year Burprenex for detox; it's already approved for pain, and in California at least, is carried at every Walgreens pharmacy and your doctor can just phone it in. If your doc prescribes it and is willing to let you inject it IM, it's a very simple and painless proceedure that anyone (who is not needle-phobic) can learn. So try for that, and settle for squirting it under the tongue.
Buprenex is absolutely mind-bogglingly good at eliminating 90-100% of early withdrawal symptoms. That's because it's another opiate (albeit a "partial" opiate that does not produce high. But if you use it for about two weeks you will develop some fairly mild withdrawal symptoms. But I'm really not sure how to distinguish these from what you would feel if you quit using the Buprenex after, say, 7 days. Because if you do that, you're still going to feel the 1-2 weeks of lethargy and depression that is common to all recovering opiate addicts. And that's about what you'd feel if you used the Bup for a longer time and then quit.
All I know is that Buprenex eliminates the writhing on the floor, screaming, convulsive leg-kicking tremors and total body bone pain and other serious phsyical symptoms of the first 5 days of withdrawal. At least it does that, which is something.
Some people say if you taper the Buprenex correctly, you can even avoid that 1-2 weeks of lethargy and depression that follows. Maybe, maybe not. But at least for sure it takes away the first horrible week of incredible suffering.
Weeks 2 and 3 may still be somewhat tough. But at least addicts no longer need suffer unmercifully thanks to Buprenex.
Btw, you can order the sublingual tablet version (0.2 mg), called Temgesic, from various online overseas pharmacies such as healthcarepharma.com. It takes about 3 wqeeks for delivery. Just remember that the potency of sublingual is not the same as an equivalent dosage of the injected Buprenex. My wild guess is that it takes maybe 5-6 (or even more) 0.2 mg tabs to equal the effectiveness of 2 0.3 mg injected Bup.
Hope this helps.
Btw, I'm 2 1/4 days since my last dose of narcotics -- this is just about when I should be in my very worst withdrawals -- and except for a mild lethargy, I'm fine, thanks to the Buprenex.
Hey, sounds like you are doing well. Can I ask how many you were taking before you quit, because this Buprenex sounds perfect for me, since I gave myself allergy shots twice a week for years, and indulged in iv abuse for a while as well. Needles are, well, they don't scare me. I just wonder...do I tell the doc that I am sick of the vicodin and scared of the dependence and want to start shooting buprenex (which I imagine would raise eyebrows) or come totally clean and say I'm abusing this stuff like nobody's business, want to stop for good, and have heard Buprenex is the answer? Man, that's a stupid question now that I look at it, but what the hell?
Also, is Buprenex better than some of the patches they slap on you to cut the cravings? I wore a patch in detox and the withdrawal was not hellish, but I still wouldn't call it a walk in the park. I just have this fear that my doc isn't going to want to give me anything that I have to inject if I say, "Hey, I'm a nasty vicodin addict!" Could just be paranoia. Any personal anecdotes about how they went about dealing with their doc to get buprenex, whether it be a full confession or otherwise, would be helpful for me so that on my next visit I ask for it and not another bottle full of hydro.
If I were you (and felt my doc was compassionate), I'd come clean about the addiction and ask for help. Tell him about Buprenex, which is sure to be FDA-approved in only a matter of months for detox, but is already approved for pain and he can call it into your local pharmacy (it's only ascheduled 2 drug, at most -- not even as controlled as Valium). Plus, I can send you via email about 25-30 brief paragraph-long research abstracts on its astounding effectiveness, from peer-reviewed journals like the Journal of Psychiatry, etc. That might reassure him. As for it being injectable, it's IM not IV injectable, so that might not bother him. Plenty of patients today give themselves IM injections for whatever reason. But if he balks, many addiction docs have their patients draw it up in a syringe with a larger-gauge needle unsuitable for IM injecting, and then have them squirt it under the tongue. It's not as effective absorbed sublingually, but it does work. Also, you can also order Buprenex (Temgesic) sublingual tabs from places like healthcarepharma.com cheaply, and it takes only about 2-3 weeks for delivery. Depending on your state, they might even fedex it to you from overseas. If you go that route, order at least 100 0.2mg sublingual tabs (again, it's called Temgesic overseas and be sure to get the kind with "bup" only and no Naltrexone or Naloxone in it).
Personally, I'd tell my doctor and ask for his help. It's extremely hard to get clean by ourselves, and just having someone know about it who can support you -- especially a doctor -- makes a huge difference in ultimate success.
Remember: It's our secrets that kill us. Tell your doc.
Meanwhile, DMR, congratulations! But I have a question for you: How long now have you been clean, and during the first few weeks of your detox, how long were you afflicted with depression and lethargy?
I have been clean for a week now (March 1 was my last 1/2 pill of Vicoprofen). THe weekend was tough especially Saturday March 2 morning !!!
I took 4 hot showers that day and 8 advils for the pain. I also took 1000mg of Tyro and 500mg of Vitamin B6..it did wonders for my lethargy but I still had major cravings for the Vics. That night my wife and I hosted a cocktail party. During the party, I neither had a single drink nor felt depressed
Sunday morning (March 3) I was feeling like **** again with major cravings and lethargy. Popped the Tyros with some tea and started feeling better. I continued popping advils and tylenols for my back pain. I was depressed but I watched TV, took walks, showers.
Monday morning (March 4) I had some discomfort in my kidneys due to the excessive advil intake. I had a little lethargy at work but little or no depression (probably because of the Tyros). My concentration was OK at work. Continued to pop the Tyros.
Since my habit wasn't too intense, withdrawl was not that bad, but I don't want to go through it again
Tuesday (March 5)..Feeling good for the first time in a long time WITHOUT THE VICS !!! Got lots of work done at the office. I still have had pain since but I don't give a **** about it no more. Pain sucks but I am now strong enough to tolerate it now
Looking forward to the future and the rest of my life...........
Regret: I have NOT told anyone NOT EVEN MY WIFE, don't really feel guilty though.......this will pass as all things will
I WANT ALL OF YOU TO FEEL LIKE ME NOW...I AM NOT RELIGIOUS BUT I AM PRAYING FOR YOU ALL
GOOD LUCK MY FRIENDS...PLEASE KEEP POSTING AND KEEP ME IN MIND
This is my very first time ever doing anything like this.
I cannot say enough how wonderful all you people are. Wow-
what a treat having people like ya'll to get encouragement from.
I to am about to call it quits with the meds. They have completely taken over. I have to make a choice sooner or later
because I do need them for terrible pain I have in my feet. I
have neuropathy (dead nerves that hurt- explain that- if their
dead how do they hurt?) Anyway before this gets too long and out of hand I would like to know more about the L-Tyrosine and where to get it. Also what exactly is 5-HTP? I keep seeing this popping up but can't seem to find out what it is. Thanks for any help. It says at the top of this page not to post a new question here. I sure hope I didn't screw this up. I really don't know
what I'am doing. Everyone here is so great thankyou again.
Trying to withdrawl slowly got too sick on day 2,went to dr on day 3, husband and I both! We only have to hide it from kids. We've been off work for a week, trying to cut down, and failing, running out and getting sick enough to feel so bad, it's taking another day and vics or perks to feel better enough to get up an d clean up. We are not good at cutting down, we eat them all!!! We had been clean for 2 yrs, husband had some dental work and thats all she wrote!! So I've never heard of some of these things you use for detox. I would like to know more. We really are floundering!
L tyrosine and 5 HTP are amino acids. You can buy them in any health food store.
The L-tyrosine helps by giving your brain the raw materials it needs to make dopamine and norepinephrine, both of which get tremendously depleted with chronic use of opiates. It helps a lot with getting your brain to make its own endorphins again. When your endorphin receptors are constantly full with opiates, your body stops making its own endorphins. This is a big part of what the withdrawals symptoms are. It is also why long term use of opiates can also make pain seem higher than it really is, since your body doesn't have its own natural endorphins back yet. Taking a break from the meds helps you get a sense of what your actual pain level is. When I got off the meds, I found that my back pain was pretty high still, but not so high that it required constant use of opiates, once I got really honest with myself.
The 5 HTP is the direct precusor to the neurotransmiter seratonin. Seratonin is responsible for mood (as is dopamine). Chronic opiate use depletes seratonin, and thus makes you depressed, especially when detoxing.
If you are already on a medication for depression that boosts seratonin, like paxil, prozac, zoloft etc, you shouldn't take either of these supplements.
Also..a good multimineral and multivitamin is very important to help you feel normal again. Drink lots of water and take tons of vitamin C.
Unfortunately nothing makes it totally a cake walk. But it is doable if you want it badly enough and have the right kind of support.
Hi Nod, i've been reading your posts and want to know more about your tapering process. Your level of use is very similar to mine and i am attempting to do exactly what you have done several times. That is taper down over a period of about 4-5 weeks. I know everyone is different, but i would be very interested to know what the withdrawls were like for you, the depression, the whole ugly story. Did you do it on your own? I have such a difficult time not "cheating." I've done the cold turkey and though my use was not nearly what it is now, it was pure hell. I hope you can offer some words of wisdom. thanks P.
To Witchywomen and DMR,
Thank you very much for the great info. I knew you guys would
come through for me. If it was only that easy. I've got everything except the 5-HTP. I'am not quite ready yet. Thanks
If you are serious about getting over the withdrawl while stopping the meds,
I advise all of you to get L-Tyrosine and Vitamin B6 and take them on an EMPTY STOMACH (start at 1000mg of the Tyro and 500 mg of the B6). They are available at your neighborhood GNC.
The Tyro will make you feel very good (not high) but very positive about life and will give you motivation to go do things you enjoy....your lethargy will be nonexistant
Pain on the other hand will still be there, but a few Tylenols or Advils should get rid of some pain...but you will feel so good that you won't even care about the pain. Since my habit wasn't as bad as all you guys on this board, I got off rather easily with my withdrawl
I am still astonished at some of you....that you are able to swallow 30 or more pills a day. I was only doing 3-4 vicoprofens a day MAX
Please stop killing yourselves, you have got people who love you, Do if for them if not for yourselves !!!! I wouldn't be writing this if I did not care about you all...
For God's Sakes, PLEASE QUIT...I am getting teary eyed as I write this
DMR, your advice is very good, the Tyrosine definately helps some, but it is not true that it makes the lethargy non existant. I did take it on an empty stomache, with B6..the whole nine yards.
I still had intense lethargy when I detoxed, even though I was taking plenty of the L-Tyrosine and several other supplements. It might be that it works better to remove lethargy from someone who is going off of a lower habit, like 5 or 6 a day. I was coming off from about 200mg a day of hydrocodone when I did it, so that may be why the Tyrosine did not remove my lethargy. It may have been way worse without it....I don't plan on ever experimenting to find out!
While the lethargy is uncomfortable, I hope thinking about it doesn't scare anyone off of detoxing. It's just the body trying to replenish it's natural functioning, and it does go away over time. You can and will feel normal and good again.
Tyro does decrease lethargy but I guess for you it won't eliminate it...but as you proceed in your recovery, you will notice that your lethargy will continue to decrease.
Lethargy is not that bad however, as long as your mood is OK, you can just relax. To help you relax, take a few hot showers, rent some comedy or "happy" movies from Blockbuster. Have your "significant other" massage you where it hurts
Most important....keep a positive attitude by thinking that tomorrow or even the next hour, "I will feel better". STAY AWAY FROM THE BOOZE
Think of something fun you did (when you weren't on the Vics) to help you elevate your mood. Don't watch CNN about the Afghan war..it will depress you further.
If you want to chat some more, email me at:
It's really great to have you have joined this forum. Your words of encouragement and support are invaluable.
I've actually been lucky enough to have gotten through detox and have been clean for 6 months, going on 7 soon. My comments were just about remembering how it was for me, at the time I went through it last August. That's how I can honestly say that the lethargy and depression phase does pass, it just takes time, patience, and lots of good support.
Again, thanks for your presence and your efforts to reach out and help us all.
I notice that perhaps one of the most repeated questions here concerns "The Recipe" and tyrosine, and we all have to keep explaining it. No harm there, but there was a web page that contained a very detailed run-down of the ingredients and how to use them. Being able to refer newcomers to that would save a lot of wear and tear on the keyboard. Unfortunately, my link went dead, then francoise turned me on to to another one in a different forum that requires signing up with your real name and all. I went through that process, then thought about hackers and my personal info being out there in a drug addiction forum (paranoia, anyone?), and tried to create a new ID with a false name and yahoo email and was summarily booted altogether. Sad, because it was a good forum and had a page for the tyrosine recipe, but it seems they have problems with hackers and have stoppped taking on new members (or at least that is what they told me when I explained the reasons for what I had done and asked to be reinstated (if the hacker problem is true, my paranoia wasn't unfounded!). What I like about this forum is that we do not have to fill out a form with our real name, address, email, etc. to post. That is akin to having to get up at an AA meeting and hand everyone your resume. Oh well, the point is that if anyone knows of a page that contains the tyrosine method, it would be really helpful to post it here so that we can point eager newbies to it. Just thought that may cut down on the redundancy, not that it's a bother, but it is nice to have one clear, succinct source for that info without having to continually repeat it. Personal anecdotes pertaining to its efficacy are another matter and those are essential here. Perhaps someone here with access to some webspace can type it up and we can create a link to it. Fortunately, I printed it out before I was booted, so if anyone needs the info for a web page, I can scan it and send it along (if I can find it). Since the tyro method has been repeated here ad infinitum, this may be a spurious suggestion, but I thought I would pose the idea just the same.
In closing, I want to say how much all of you mean to me...except I can't put that into words.
For the record, the site you mention is open for new members who do not misrepresent themselves and try to register with multiple identities. Especially those who have been banned for causing problems and think they can sneak back on as someone else. I believe these kinds of people are known as trolls. That kind of behavior is indicative of problems that go beyond addiction and we try to maintain a level or trust so our members are free to post their true feelings and experiences. And yes, the recipe is available there. Anyone who wants more information can email me: ***@****.
hi peechi ... read the comments around the bupronex .. it really does work!!! .. i have kids as well so it was imperative that i was functional while withdrawing ... i have been totally calm, not sick, in fact quite the opposite (house hasnt been this clean in months!!) .. good luck to you!!
Hi all ... re comments about buprenex (buprenorphine here in Austalia) all i can say is that i stopped cold turkey on wednesday 12 noon and its now sunday night, past midnight and i have not had had ONE aspect of withdrawal .. NO DISCOMFORT WHATSOEVER .. for all of you that have a fear of detoxing and are putting it off due to the worry of discomfort - you will not even know you are detoxing on this stuff ..it is a magic pill - i am planning to stay on for about 8-12 weeks and then to come off slowly, apparantly the detox from bruprenorphine is minimal, if any if handled correctly. I have gone from hundred/s of $$'s per day in street opiates to $4.00 per day .. and i have no side effects except a big smile from knowing my body is getting clean .. good luck to you all :))))
I did a search on google and the applicable pages were gone. If anyone wants the recipe you can email me ***@**** or visit http://pub37.ezboard.com/bthenewaddictionmedicineforum where it is posted with all the additions and comments. You must join this forum and applicants are verified and screened as we had a problem with a troll. But I will be happy to send it to you via email if you don't want to join the forum.
For the record, and to perhaps help others, could you provide the following information if you are comfortable?
1.) What drug(s) and how much daily were you using before you shifted to the bup?
2.) What strength of the Bup did you use - the .2mg sublingual? How many, how often? Did you use the IM? And what was your taper schedule - how much initial Bup and how long did you taper off it, if indeed you did taper off.
3. If you did taper of the Bup were the Bup withdrawals?
I am always interested in this drug and the many success stories I have heard. I also think it could benefit many on this board looking for detox options.
I'm on Day 9 of detox from a very large opiate habit, and thanks to Buprenex I also have felt ZERO withdrawal symptoms except for some anxiety on Day 1 which 10 mg of valium relieved.
The Bup is amazing. Sleep like a baby almost every night.
I used the injectable 0.3mg ampules prescribed by my addiction doc and in the first few days I took 6 amps twice daily. That's a higher dose than the 2-3 every 8 hours most people take, but the beauty of Buprenex is that it is impossible to overdose on it. Or near impossible, anyway. The package insert reports that you can take 70 0.3mg amps with no risk of respiratory depression or overdose.
Be aware that the 0.2mg sublingual tablets you can buy overseas (where it's called Temgesic) or at online pharmacies are NOT equipotent to the intra-muscular injected form. In my own experience, I needed about 6 mg of the sublingual tabs to get the same effect as 1.8 mg of the injected form.
Also, be aware that tolerance and addiction does begin to build after about 2 weeks of use. Therefore, either taper off and stop before that time, or be prepared to go through moderate withdrawal symptoms when you do stop. And because Bup is long acting, those withdrawals, while not as severe as from heroin, say, do last longer -- up to two weeks.
One other thing: if you're on a long-acting opiate like Oxys, you should first switch to a short-acting opiate such as Vicodin for a few days and then wait at least 24 hours (when you're really feeling some withdrawal symptoms) before starting the Buprenex. If you take it sooner, it can increase withdrawal symptoms instead of relieving them.
But if done right, Buprenex can give you a totally pain-free detox and withdrawal experience -- except possibly for the post-withdrawal depression and lethargy that many addicts feel for a while.
Thank you Schlub for your info. I understand Bup may soon be endorsed for opiate w/drawals in the USA. Austria and some other countries are using it for this purpose. It seems to hold a tremendous amount of potential for those addicted to opiates and who want to get off with minimum w/ds. Please keep us posted.
In the meantime, I am posting a version of the recipe again so that anyone who needs it can have it. As I have said, it is readily available should anyone need it. There are several versions, and this is one of them. It will remain readily available as long as anyone asks and I am around. Many others who have been on the board for a while likely have it saved. Again credit is due to Thomas who first posted his original version here
Jack Frost brings up a very important point -- i.e., the role that medical or other professional support plays in recovery.
I mean, studies have shown that you can take an addict in deep withdrawal at home, showing scores of 9 or 10 on that rating scale for withdrawal symptoms docs use, and then drive him 15 minutes to a doictor's office. Within 5 minutes of sitting in the presence of a doctor, the severity of withdrawal symptoms will go down to 6-7 from 9-10.
In my own experience, I have tried to detox alone before with the same meds my addiction doc later gave me, but they simply were not as effective as when given to me by the doctor.
Your mental outlook also has a lot to do with whether you successfully beat addiction or not. I don't care who you are or how dedicated you are to getting clean, there are going to be days of despair and loss of hope. Having an addiction specialist who can reassure you -- not give you bullshit pep talks -- but truly reassure from HIS OWN EXPERIENCE helping hundreds of patients recover that you can and will succeed, too, is very very powerful.
As for Buprenex, yes the rumor is that it will gain FDA approval for use in detox this year. It's already approved for pain relief.
Also, there continues to be a lot of research underway on Buprenex's many interesting qualities. It relieves pain but does not appear to give a "high" -- sorry folks, but for recovery from addiction, that is the goal after all. It completely relieves all withdrawal symptoms. It is totally safe, impossible to overdose on, and some research even suggests it may even have certain "healing" properties re: neurotransmitter and other brain functions damaged by years of opiate abuse.
I know it sounds too good to be true, or that I'm somehow "promoting" it. Maybe it's not for everyone. And then there's the post-withdrawal lethargy and depression which hits many recovering addicts even if the initial detox is painless.
But what I can say with certainty is that thanks to Buprenex, there is no reason for any addict to ever have to suffer again during detox and withdrawal. That's something to be grateful for.
I can attest that buprenorphine works very well for strong pain. I take it infrequently, once maybe twice a week, when my pain is too strong to bear, and there is absolutely no buzz, but the pain is lowered significantly. It has not triggered a desire to use hydro again for me. It is a very helpful medication.
I do know that it is addictive, which is why I won't take it very often. The last thing I want is to ever get physically dependant on a medication again.
I wish I had known about bup when I did my detox. It would have made things a lot easier. But, on the other hand, the memory of the hell of withdrawals helps me to stay clean, so it is probably better that I went through it the way I did.
You know, that's a good point you bring up, Witchywoman.
The person who first studied and introduced me to Buprenex warned me that it works so well, it may actually encourage relapse because it lets addicts think they can use again and simply jump back on the Buprenex to get clean when they want.
It certainly contributed to my relapse.
But the hidden danger is that every time youi try to detox and get clean, it gets physically and emotionally harder -- somewhere between 25-50% harder each successive try.
This is it for me. My last chance. And believe me, I have a lot to live for and this time I will not blow it. I'm going to earn my six month chip just like Witchywoman did, and keep going.
Anyway, it's now Day 10 clean for me. Just baby steps, I know. But instead of fear, for the first time I feel excited about the drug-less life that awaits me.
Thanks to all of you, by the way. DMR, Seamstress, Jack Frost, Skipper, Witchywoman and everyone else -- your encouragement helped me more than you probably realize. Bless you for that.
You mean I get a chip? Can I have a cake instead? Chocolate? ;-)
lol , just kidding.
You know, I did not realize that withdrawal gets harder and harder every time someone has to go through it. I had never heard that before. Is that verified anywhere? "Cause honestly, I can't imagine anything being worse than what I went through 6 months ago..I really can't. Just hearing that it gets worse gives me another tool in my "reasons to stay clean" kit. :-)
Though I've been lucky enough to not have cravings hit me upside the head like they used to.
I"m really curious about hearing that detox gets harder each time. Do you know why that is? Or physiologically what the reasons for that are?
i'm just finishinng up a day from hell. last night, the scar on the autograph bone donar site (where they cut me open to get a piece of bone to fuse two ver. in my spine) had swollen up. sometime during the night it came open. now i'm talking about a wound scar from may of last year!!
called my doc up. he told me to go to ER. went to ER, where they
offered a script of pain pills, but was turned down for an anti-
biotic!! let me get this straight, dope but no antibiotics. wow!
this unwanted return of a very bad spring and summer. (well i did
get involved with this forum and that was good!) i've noticed that when bad or unpleasent things happen to me i tend to look for reasions like bad behavior that would account "for me getting what i deserve!!"
thursday morning, IR and i will be on our way to gulfport' miss.
for a few days. i sure hope this "uninvited guest" doesn't cause
you people can stone me if you like, but i didn't fill the pain
pills. **** they were only 5mg. hydro-c anyhow. i'm upset the ER
doc wouldn't give me any antibiotics!
oh well, i've said before, some days the best a junky can do is
put their head down and try to move forward - or at least not
lose any more ground! guess it's time to get my head down..
Oh man, I feel terrible for you Skipper. You're the one who encouraged me to hang in there 11 days ago. I wish my own words could somehow help you.
Dope but no antibiotics ... what a crazy world!
Witchywoman, no I don't know of any research that detox gets harder with each relapse. It's just something I've heard, and something I've personally felt. But I don't know of any objective measures, whoich would probably be impossible to do anyway since each time a person relapses and then seeks treatment again, he or she will be using a different amount of dope fpor a different length of time.
Whatever. One thing that has always amazed me about opiate withdrawals is that if you just describe the symptoms -- bone pain, sweating and chills, anxiety and restlessness and leg-kicking tremors, insomnia and loose bowels -- they don't seem to be all that tough. But in reality there's a quality of extreme anguish and suffering to it that is not conveyed by that list of symptoms that makes for a quite-nearly-intolerable experience.
I don't know...but just reading the symptoms as you listed them sounded pretty acurately horrifying to me!
I was rereading the journal I wrote back in August when I was detoxing, and yep..it sucked. Where it not for the friends I had here emailing me every hour and knowing I could come here and type away, babbling like an idiot as much as I needed to, I'm not sure I"d have been able to do it.
These days, I'm facing the painful issues that were sustaining my using to begin with. It is much easier to handle a marriage that is disatisfying when one is flying on that "false sense of well being". My hub and I are doing ok, we are back in marriage therapy, which is painful but the only way to try and get our major problems resolved.
I'm also aware of just how much more gregarious and social I was when using. I was up for parties, talking on the phone, just doing tons of stuff..but the reality is that I"m a much quieter, homebody kinda person, and my friends are not happy with the new me. They want me out and about more, and that is just not who I authentically am. I'd rather curl up with a good novel, work out, have one or two people over for dinner, than go to a big party and make scintilating small talk with folks I don't know well. I'm not the social butterfly the hydro made me into. I have to admit that I miss that social butterfly, but the consequences, and the inauthentic connections that spawned from them are not what I want my life to be about. I want to be real. I want to be who I am. It is hard when that doesn't match who others want me to be, harder still when that person is my husband.
So that is the struggle I'm in...I realize I almost always only post support for others, and hide out what my problems might be. I don't want to do that anymore, hide out and give the impression I'm just fine. I'm ok , but not totally fine. Life without drugs is not miraculously blissful. It is just more authentic, and that is what I want.
let's get one thing straight, your words do make a difference! if
you were face to face with me i think i'ld probably have to slap you upside the head when i tell you that. yeah i was one of many
11 days ago. i also was one of many last summer. man you could
barely type, but that didn't stop you from posting. i not only
noticed and remembered that, i'm still just as impressed today as i was last summer! the only thing i could be critical of any one of us on this forum is that we can sometimes go too long between
wictchwoman's 6 months got me to thinking about this forum last
summer. a lot of changes and new people since then! when a new
forum started, a lot of people left this one for the new one. a
symptom of social growth is expressed when something like this occurs. for whatever reasion, i decided to stick with med helps forum. it makes my heart glad to to hear and see both forums prosper!
i had a recent phone conversation with a member of this forum. one of the things we both marveled about was that something like
this forum ever even happened. i'm sure (like everythig else on
the internet) no one who has ever been involved with this forum
could have guessed what it has become. want soething to really
think about? where will we (the forum) be in another 6 months?
i'm quite certain the forum will still be going strong but beyond
that, i wouldn't even want to venture a guess. life is really
something if you just have enough sense to let it happen to you!
oh yeah: the neuro surgeon called and wants to take a look at my
"little problem from last summer." i think maybe he will write an
Rx for some kind of antibiotics. maybe there is a happy ending of
this somewhere today.
I'm also slapping myself for forgetting to comment in my last post about what just happened to you.
I can't believe the Docs would not give you an antibiotic but would dole out the pain meds. Hello??? What were they thinking?
Do they have any clue why the bone site would just suddenly open? Man that sounds pretty scary to me. Would freak me out big time!
Please let us know what kind of treatment they are going to pursue from here.
I can't believe all you have gone through. You deserve a break!
You're like, one of my favorite people in the world, and when you hurt, I hurt.
It's good to be back on this forum. When the split happened, my heart broke, my loyalties torn. But both can prosper, and I celebrate the prospering of both places with you, though this is my home.
well just back from taking Meatyboy on his afternoon constitutional and before that the neuro-surgeon. somewhat good news from the neurosurgeon's office. i saw the good cutter's P.A. who worked me in between her scheduled appointments. she (the PA) had the same diagnosis as i had. a stitch is working it's way out. also had the wound cultured for further investigation. got my antibiotic though. it must be a real slow stich, as it taken 10 months to try and surface. so...i'm off tomarrow for gulf port, mississippi. i'm not sure what i'll get myself up to while IR is in business meetings all day. the hotel we are staying at is connected to 5 casinos. i have never been a gambler, so that doesn't hold much promise. maybe i'll just people watch. i've never had the chance to observe people who gamble, at least not large crowds of them.
at any rate i'm feeling much beter after going to the doctors of-
fice. the PA didn't think an infection had setup yet. maybe i'll
get lucky and slip by this one. i did get a neat "present at the
doc's office. yep, got me a stitch removal kit. it consist of
several alcohol swabs, some really tiny scissors, and some fine
point tweezers. now if this offensive little stitch surfaces
while i'm gone, i got the tools to get after it.
Thank you everyone for being such great ppl!You all have made me feel that I am not alone.I was clean 6 weeks in sept.I thought I would never go back to full time using again well I WAS WRONG!One taste and it's all over except this time it's really hard.This time the person i used to buy my oxy's off of introduced me to the world of Fetanyl.Wow it was great but it ALL catches up to you.Sunday was my last taste of it and it is thursday and i'm still suffering pretty badly.You have all opened my eyes to different treatments i would like to look into the buprenex thing.I'm not sure my doc will go for it, they know of my addiction history and won't even prescribe xanax.They also don't know I have relapsed,YET.Well thank you for listening to me i appreciate it and please keep me in your prayers.I have so much to lose and if anyone found out i was using again they would all disown me unfortunately my family is NOT supportive at all. Have a clean day!
I wish that I had something to offer in terms of support. But I really dont. So, mostly I am posting to say thank you for having the courage to share so candidly.
For me, that is a very scary thing to do. I am so afraid of losing the few friends that I have made, being ridiculed or being on the receiving end of humor or sarcasm that is hurtful. By not taking the chance, there is little opportunity to be the recipient of support. But when I see someone who I respect and admire (like you) reaching out, I feel closer to taking the risk.
Day 7 and detox is too easy with Bupernex, I have been cuting down on the amps every day( like you recomended) and taking the Thomas recomended vitamins l-tyrosine /b6 and multi. I'm still scared what will happen when I have to take that 1st day with NO Bup!
TO MANY bad memories from prev dtox's. This will be my last.
Let me know how it goes on Sunday. The last time I was soooo
depressed for so long, I believe that was the reason I started taking meds again.I'm glad I can taper off slow with the Bup and hope it makes it easier to deal with mentaly.
Witchywoman and the rest of you who are totaly clean and sober-- I think you are the bravest,strongest people in the world, and I hope to be one of you soon. I did quit nicotine 5 years ago, so
I guess thats something. Bless you all, your my support, goodnight.
I WAS reading the pos about orderinf Temgesic over the internet thru healthcarepharm.com--please let me know if you have ever,or know someone who has ever tryed this and do you recive the meds
all of the time and how long does it take?
~~~~~This is for all of you who have ordered or will try to order any Meds through the internet.~~~~~
I thought I had it made when I ordered my first 200 tabs of ULTRAM through an online seller. I then decided that I didn't need to go "Doctor shopping" anymore, so I was going to set up a schedule of drug deliveries to keep me supplied and never have to worry about running short again. Ha HA HA!!!
What seems to good to be true ALWAYS is. After ordering the ULTRAM the first time, my next order was for a months supply of SOMA, ULTRAM and TEMGESIC. Unfortunately that was after Sept. 11th. Now, US Customs is really checking what is coming into this country (USA). My second order was siezed by US Customs, I got a nasty letter from them informing me that I was now on thier "List", and if I ever got another shipment, prosecution would follow. Even though these drugs are Legal in the US, the drugs that you order online are foreign manufactured and importation is ILLEGAL. unless you are a legitimate doctor or drug researcher at a university level, ALL imported drugs are now subject to seizure. EVEN TYLENOL!!
So, I'm out about $500.00~~ live and learn. I am kind of glad that the order did get seized because if I had gotten it, it (the drug use)would have ballooned out of control!!
I asked the question starting the thread dealing with valium and vicodin. This thread dealing with tyro is obviuosly related and very interesting for all of us.
Question: once off the vicodin, will tyro react poorly with valium (as I intend to use the valium once of the vics and then "wean" off the valium), or should I not use the tyro with the valium inasmuch it may have a negative interaction?
I'm new at this but all of you are so great in supporting each other. I'm just so new at these problems that I (unfortunately) don't feel adequate or qualified to help you.
I really wish I could as so many of you are truly heros trying to help each other in addition to yourselves?
Well, I have'nt spoken to you in a while and I thought that either you or I fell off of the earth. I am so glad that you posted that last post about the online orders from foreign pharmacies. I often wondered what happened with those orders.
Just another reason to keep coming back to this forum.
When I was using another sight back at the end of 2001 that is now cancelled, I would see more posts about how to get online drugs, large supplies, and less trying to help others get through the horrors of addiction. Thank you again for sharing that info. Thank you for your continued input to everyone here seeking answers to questions. It does'nt take an expert to be here on the forum, only someone willing to share out of compassion and that is what it is, and experience. I thank God for you and all others out there on the forum.
Welcome to the forum and I do mean that you are welcome.
I don't think that there are any experts here only those willing to share and be helped as well. If you don't think that you have anything to offer, then you're selling yourself short. As someone had so eloquently put it in another thread, "just flop it it out there and let us digest it." or words to that effect. You would be amazed at who may be sitting in the shadows with the same circumstances as you and does'nt have the courage to step forward yet. We are here for you. Thank you for your coming aboard. Now lay it on us. Tell us about yourself and what brought you here. Again, WELCOME.
As I was trying to make some sense of this horrible withdrawal I am experiencing (have been using hydrocodone for about 18 months), I had the great fortune of stumbling upon this site. You all are truly an answered prayer for me. How wonderful to realize that I'm not alone. I've just started tapering off of the Vicodin and was really worried when I read about the severity of the withdrawal symptoms, but I have a renewed sense of resolve to get through this - thanks to all of you. Thank you again and blessings to each of you.
In detoxing off vicodin and valium, I was advised by doctors (and others on this site) to stay on the valium until I'm off the vics (at 1 1/2 per day now, going down 1/2 per week). When that's done, will start off the valium at 1 mg per day (at 12 now).
Question I asked earlier was: does anyone know if valium and tyro interact poorly. I am advised to stay no the valium when I'm off the vics, and have seen on this thread how tyro has helped people once off the opiates. However, I'm afraid to get on the tyro while I'm on the valium....especially if I don't feel the lethargy many of you have described.
there is no contraindication with valium and l tyrosine that I've heard of...and hopefully detoxing off 12mg of valium daily won't be that tough, though valium has a very long half life and might be dribbling into your system for the next year(gets deposited into your hair and your bones among other organs). l tyrosine is a precursor to mood elevaters naturally occuring in your brain( norepinephrine and dopamine) that are found at low levels when you are taking narcotics. So l tyrosine should help elevate your mood when detoxing, and may stave off deeper levels of depression. Good luck..........hjp
hi - this is pretty far down on the posts, so i hope you see it. please tell me where in the world did you ever find a doctor willing to prescribe you buprenex????? every dr. i've ever asked looked at me like i was a crazy person...which at this point i am. why is it that i can get any dr. to prescribe narcotics to me, and i can't get anyone to prescribe a much less addictive one so that i can detox?? any input on this would be so helpful to me. thanks much!
Thank you and everyone for the info on Bupernex /down from 5 to 4 amps,a little faster than my pain/rehab Dr. would like but he says if Ican handle it 45-60 days should be totaly clean. thats I scary and exciting idea all in one.
Schlub, I know you said Sunday was your last day of any Bup, so Plz let me know how it was, How you handled it. I know you were going to do itas fast as I planned 2-3 weeks,but the depression thing came back to mind, I was reminded by the posts and my Dr.and reading the posts, I decided to take it a little slower 6-8 wks, I 'll get down to 1/2 an amp and then just quit , rite?
Keep in touch all of you and God bless my thoughts are with you all everyday
Yes, I stopped the Bup 48 hours ago and actually I'm a bit surprised at how relatively minor the lethargy and depression is. Yesterday I got half a day's work in, today I'm taking it easy, lying around reading a book. I feel enormous guilt that my wife is taking on all the load of taking care of the baby, but she says if I need a little babying myself it's a small price to pay for having a happy healthy and energetic husband again.
It's still possible things will get worse tomorrow -- the dreaded 72 hour high-point on the bell curve of withdrawal symptoms -- but I think tapering from the Bup helped.
And I also think my new mental attitude is helping. I really don't care how bad the lethargy and depression gets this time -- I'm not going to use again! I don't know how to describe it. Maybe it's like when you're running up a steep hill, if you can see the top and know that there's an end to your pain in sight, it just doesn't hurt as much.
But man, if what I feel now -- a bit lethargic, slightly twitchy, not very motivated, but in no great pain or mental despair -- is as bad as it gets, then I'll feel mightily blessed and just assume that for some undeserved reason God has smiled on me.
I want everyone to know that the "panic of withdrawal" is what makes much of detox so difficult. Talk to adoctor, find afriend, open up to your spouse, but do something to let someone else in to steady you through this process. It's quite surprising how much withdrawal distorts our minds and our thinking.
First of all Schlub I think you have a great attitude. Take it slow and know the road ahead will be fullof bumps. It's great you have a supportive spouse and have come clean. I had only 3 amps today and feel just fine. I believe the rehab period depends alot on your mental state. With most of us it takes many times of falling back to the old ways before we make that permanent leap, and finially wake up feeling great, singing to the radio and not thinking about drugs and where to get some.
Keep in touch---My thoughts are with all of you that post here.
I have been there too--I just hope this is the begining of the end of that life style and the start of a new one. Witchywoman
said how important her local support group was I am going to search one out also.
To Groovy--I am sorry but wish to keep my personal information just that, so I won't be able to give you any information on where my Dr. is located. There is plenty of advice and information on the internet and even on the posts on this site--just keep reading. Search hard and you will find what your looking for.
well...thanks anyway. if there is a sympathetic fellow addict out there that can point me in the direction of a dr. in the boston area willing to prescribe buprenex, please please let me know who. i have researched the net, called every dr. in the yellow pages, etc etc - this was all to no avail. i helped someone on this site obtain buprenex thru a "private" online source, but i cannot use this source myself as he is VERY expensive. i need a dr. to prescribe it and supervise me during the process - the support is half the battle for me. any input from anyone would be so much appreciated...good luck all - i'm rooting for each and every one of you.
I've heard all the info. on tyro. and b-6. Thank you to all from the bottom of my heart!! my question is should I stop all pain meds. first and then take them? I'm taking lortab 10/500 5-6 day with oxy 40 mg. 2x daily and serezone 150 mg. Should I taper down the pain meds and then stop and take tyro/b6 or overlap and then stop the narcs.---I hope you understand what I'm trying to ask. THANK YOU TO ALL in advance for any help with this.---MIKE
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