How long will withdrawl last

[too blue]

I have been lurking here a few weeks and finally decided to jump in after reading Rob's story.  One thing I would like to ask Rob is given the high dose he was on has he had any problem with his liver or kidneys?

A little about me.  I fell off a horse when I was 33 and tore up my back and hip really bad.  Lots of P/T to walk right again.  During all that mess they discoved I had Ankylosing Spondylitis and that it was contributing to why my bones were not healing any faster.  During this time they pressed pain pills on me by the handfuls.  I had never taken anything but the occasional asperin or ever had any pain for that matter.  After 1989 that all changed and my life has never been the same.  I am now on disability and fight bouts of depression as well as chronic pain.  Currently I am on Welbutrin and Lortab.  I take 2 500's every four hours around the clock.  That is 12 pills a day.  It bothers me a lot, but my doctor says that I am not an addict.  I know this is wrong because I have tried to skip doses and I get pain all over my body and the runs.  I know it would only get worse.  He says I am simply dependent on them and there is a difference.  I don't see it.  If that doctor cut me off looks to me like I would be shivering in the shower like addict movies I have seen.  I worry all the time about my liver and kidneys and sometimes my tests come back a little elevated an he says nothing to worry about.  The pain meds hold my pain at bay most of the time but I am so tired all the time.  I want to stop but I will have to do it without my doctors help.  I am so scared.

[Bunches]

I'm new to this (or any) sites and am getting ready for detox on Monday.  I'm still "using" Vicodin to get me through until Monday.  I'm wondering if things such as jitters, being edgy, startled easily, awakening suddenly and wide awake at night are signs of withdraw (tapering) or just part of addiction and using??

[IrishLuck]

I too suffer from chronic back pain and have had 3 surgeries since Dec. 98. The last one in May 2001 involving a second fusion on four levels with screws and rods. Very painful experience and a long recovery. I am now going to pain management for meds and also nerve blocks. I have been on oxycontin for about 1 1/2 yrs. They used to help my pain more than they do now. I take 50 mg in the AM and 50 in the PM. They want to increase it because I suffer from a lot of pain and built up a tolerance. My next appt. is May 12 so I we will decide then. I work everyday and do a lot of office work, which requires sitting for long periods of time. The oxy has really helped, but be careful. If you run out before your next script, it will be pure hell for you. That has happened to me twice and I would not wish that upon anyone. Especially you, because of the added discomfort of back pain. Do whatever you can to monitor your intake and DO NOT run out. I also take Norco for breakthru pain meds, so if I do happen to run out I make sure I have enough of them to get me thru. I think this site has some of the most compationate and strong willed people on earth. I can relate to most of the stories on here and it is just comforting to read them. I wish you the best and remember, do what ever you can to take your meds as prescribed, you will thank your self in the end. Best to you all...God Bless!!

[Nazareth]

I know you mentioned that oxycontin or other long acting analgesics weren't covered but I would look into that a bit more. I have taken Darvon for 9 years now and have had some problems with it. I built a tolerance so I would take more then persrcibed then suffer until my next refill. I have chronic back pain coupled with addiction so I suffered both from my back and the withdrawls. Recently my doctor switched me to Oxy and it has been very good for me. I don't have the ups and downs of the Darvon and Oxy really helps the pain dissappear!!  I don't get high like I did with the Darvon and I like that too. It has only been six weeks so I'm really hoping that this is the answer and not just another step into a worsening addiction. I guess I will know if I quickly become tolerant to the Oxy.

Take Care

[mrmichael67]

Do a search on Google or your favorite search engine and type in "benzodiazepine addiction"  or benzo addiction or dependence or something along those lines.  Valium, as well as other benzos, is very addicting.  Once dependent, they can be dangerous to come off of.  Take them only as needed.  Don't worry if you take them now and then.  Just respect them, that's all.

[sundara]

thanks for the reply. yes, i had a seven week implant put in.  Now you got me alittle scared about side effects. so far so good,,,, the detox was painless and oh my god it is so wonderful to wake up in the morning make lunches, get kids off to school, i feel alive again . . .i am sure it's that pink cloud i have heard of hope to stay on it hope it's just having my life back.  Still have some 5mg valium around in case of heebeegeebie. . . .if you know what i mean.  Do you know if valuim is addictive? . . . that's got me scared as well.  Take a mega multi-mineral-vitiam along with L-tyrosine with b-6?  any thoughts on that?  glad to hear you woke up not freezing. . . . this format is still kinda wierd to me. . . is there a chat for people like us??  keep me posted -

[peaz]

AWESOME post!!  You delineated PERFECTLY the definition of dependency vs. addiction.  Specifically: I took notice at the point about ANYONE who is on an opiate for any length of time will manifest W/D symptoms, even if they're NOT an addict.  I have gone 'round and 'round w/ my drug counselors on this very point until I'm blue in the face......All the while they are insisting that a "normie"  can take massive amounts of an opiate and not become dependent........BULLSHITZKY!!!!!  Like you say:  It IS the nature of the beast.  The opiate makes no distinction between addict and non-addict in displaying its inherent properties....So THANKS-----I will  spout off your post at my next group therapy session....They'll be looking at each other, "tsk, tsk, tsking"  and mumbling, " But she was doing SO WELL just a week ago...!!"  LOL    I HATE it when they (the drug counseling establishment) refuse to recognize basic and fundamental truths; instead they go the brain-washing route and hope no one notices the glaring errors and inconsistencies...Not THIS kid.......

[peaz]

Yo girl!! I know what you're saying.   I have had the conversation where I have said,  "It's NO WONDER I became dependent-- vicodin is a NARCOTIC .  And then, yes, I DID become an addict...."   And the counsleor says," NO!! You became addicted from the get-go because you are an ADDICT. A  non-addict wouldn't have even been dependent on them."   So I  assume the non-addict has some knack  for being impervious to an opiate's nature.....Hey--Can I  buy a bottle of that somewhere?? LOL  My blood pressure's rising--I need to get off this topic.  Good to see ya, though, Sweets---Love, Peazy

[pammy0690]

It boils down to basic biochemistry.  If the chemical is in the blood over time the body will get used to having that chemical.  I know a least ten poeple who were prescribed oxycotin and did not abuse it and had serious withdrawals when they stopped.  In no way shape or form would I consider them to an addict because they had real pain.  They too had to work hard to quit and they too had depression and fagtgue.  I think addiction is in the eye of the beholder.  When the person continues to use the substance dispite negative conquences I have heard before as a good defintion of addiction.  Pammy

[onestep]

So tell me.....4 to 6....7.5 hydros a day for years....what's it do to the kidneys ?

[mrmichael67]

No one is immune to dependency if they take opioids for long enough.....NO ONE.  Like Pammy said, it is biological.  A big thing with non-addicts is when the physical withdrawals are over, they don't crave.  They stop, get over the sickness, and get on with their lives and don't look back.  I can't help but comment on too blue as well.  Using since '96 and only up to 12 a day?  If you were truly addicted, you would have eclipsed that mark by a lot by now.  What you have demonstrated is ordinary tolerance that will increase over time.  This kind of illustrates what I meant in another thread, that tolerance goes up slowly when a person is using their meds as prescribed.  Seven years and up to only 12 a day.  You have done yourself a big favor.  Believe me when I tell you that.  Of course, there are exceptions to the rule.  But, usually when tolerance increases rapidly, it is due to abuse or disease progression or a new injury.

[rodewc]

Glad you are better. I didnt post a comment to you because my recovery is still vvvv new, and I have beenlurkink/learning. ~
rode w/ C.

[sundara]

thank you so much for the reply, i was beginning to think i was invisable. . . . well, today was day 7 clean , so i had an implant put in today . . . it's kinda like antibuse for the
AA's except you don't get violently ill,  the pills just don;t work - it;s an opiate blocker - after 7 painless days (slept -  knocked out ) of detox i have the implant i could take 12 vicodins and not feel a thing. . . horray for me. . . . there is much more i could tell you, is there some sort of chat type forum available for people like us?

[percsnomas]

Point VERY well taken!!

I guess my response to 'too blue', came from my own experience, which definately started out in the dependency category.......but it  sure as hell ended in the addiction category!!!  All i knew at the time however, was that i had gotten myself into quite the predicament, and i didn't give a **** what we were calling "it".

percs

[freezing]

I hope you do well, and please let us know how you progress.  You had a Naltrexone implant?  If so, I was on Naltrexone for a month.  I suffered like heck.  After eight months of suffering, I finally went on Suboxones, and feel all better.  It's incredible.  My confidence and mental acuity have returned.  I'm not suffering any of the numerous symptoms I had.  I hope it continues, and I think it will, b/c each day gets better, unlike after my rapid detox's and c/t detox.  I awakened fine today for the first time.  NOT FREEZING!!!

[too blue]

I forgot to say that I am going to experiment with cutting back on the Lortab and see just how little I can get by on.  So I dropped one dose for each of the last two days.  Already I have the twitchy legs and I still have the stuff loaded in my system.  I can't even imagine how anyone gets through the full blown cold turkey.  I am going to cut back one dose a week until I am at 8 at day, then maybe I can extend the time in between doses to knock off a couple more.  I have to do something to clear away the fog and have some energy.  Something has to change.

[freezing]

Hey,
Your sentiments sound a lot like mine.

My pain doc and my addiction doc both said I'm not an addict.  Meantime, I'm racing past 100mcg fentanyl duragesic, supplemented by oxy's, with almost no pain relief, just depression, constipation, sweating, and other w/d symptoms, back chills, etc.

Five days ago, I was allowed to try the switch to Suboxone, and I feel normal for the first time in years.  If I was getting pain relief, maybe I'd feel different, but the opiate prescriptions didn't keep up with my tolerance building.

I am starting to enjoy life again.  It's a lot of adjusting, and the first couple days are rough.  The first day was HORRIBLE.  Couldn't even get out of bed.  But it gets better and better, so far.

[too blue]

Thank you for the encouragement.  I see your point on the subject of quitting pain meds when I know that I will still be in pain.  The pain is not going to go away.  I am doing all I can for that.  I take the meds exactly as prescribed.  I don't ever get a high.  When I very first took pain meds I did get that warm fuzzy feeling but that went away in just a few months.  Now the only way I know that they are working is when the pain stops.  I can't tell any difference mentally at all.  I have to take good care with them.  I am afraid if I started taking enough at one time to get some kind of high my tolerance would grow so much that nothing would kill my pain.  That is a scary enough thought right there.  I just wondered if the heavy painkiller use is worsening this depression.  I don't know, it has just been a very bad winter and I am desperate for some relief.  Thank you to everyone who made comments.  I do feel better just for having said some of those "outloud" so to speak.

[too blue]

Dear Freezing, Thanks for responding.  It sounds like you are in a much worse place than me.  At least my meds do keep the pain hidden unless I try to do too much.  It is just that I am tired all the time and  can't see how 12 Lortab a day is not contributing to that, and to the depression.  I have not tried the patches or oxys, there is much medicaid will not cover.  But the doc says the AS causes fatigue.  It's just a neverending nightmare mess and I am so tired of all of it.  I would just so like to have no medication in my body for one week and see if I felt anything like myself again.  No telling what med does what, when.  God help us all.

[mrmichael67]

Just because one experiences withdrawal symptoms, it doesn't mean they are addicted.  It means they are dependent.  The doctor is right.  So, everyone who takes opioids for an extended period of time is addicted?  Everyone who takes opioids for a lengthy time (of course it varies) will develop a dependence to their meds with the onset of withdrawal symptoms upon discontinuation of the meds.  It is just the nature of the beast.  Addiction is a behavior.  Doctor shopping, hoarding meds and hiding them.  Always worrying about your supply.  NON-COMPLIANCE.  You know the behaviors.  That is addiction.  Not because your body is physically capable of going into withdrawal.  Opioids work the same for all, addict or not.  If you take them for long enough and you stop, you will get sick.  That in itself doesn't qualify one as an addict.  It is a good thing many in the medical profession feel that way, or pain management would be almost non-existent.  And, it is sad that many don't feel that way and as a result, many patients continue to be under-treated by their doctors and take things into their own hands......carbon monoxide.......swallowing a gun barrel.....

[Chezz2]

Don't despair. Things are bound to get like this when you deal with chronic pain.
I have been in the same boat for the last 2 years. I am also quite a bit younger than you, I presume.
I have had my fair share of struggles. Including and not limited to depression, overtaking/running out early, dependence/addiction ect. ect. ect.
I am currently still treating my pain, properly...that is the key. If you are treating your PAIN, and "properly", then you need to continue to seek treatment. If you are not treating it properly, or overtaking to get high, or anything where YOU know you shouldn't be, then it maybe time to look at other options. Although if you don't have those issues and in fact are treating you pain the best you can, have done all possible to take care of that pain, including walking, PT, whatever it takes...then it is like the doc said - something that need to be treated for analgesics - possibly for the long term.
I have finally came to the conclusion that I am doing all I can, and if I am not getting better and I NEED pain meds to control the pain, then I am not to make the situation worse by constantly trying to "heal myself" or stop taking the meds cause I am sick of taking them. Since I have done this, I have taken my meds properly, started working as much as possibly(full time now_ switching back to part time and finishing my masters). I have a hard time in the morning and can't get "moving" for a couple hours, so I wake up at 5 to be ready to go at 8am, when I am done with work it takes me a couple hours to readjust and get moving at home - hence 8pm or so. Sure it hurts and it isn't fun sometimes, although with meds is has made it possible to assume any type of "worthiness". Some people can't even do that much and are in the same position as me, so I am thankful. (believe  me, I would much rather quit and go back to not having to do this much, but for me - MENTALLY I am doing a lot better, so I have stuck with it. Where as before, I was much more moodier and less productive, with "mentally" the same amount of pain. For ME this works.
You have to find out what works for you. What is the best for you at this point in your treatment. Don't just up and quit the meds and hope the pain goes away. Sure it works for some, most already KNOW they don't have the pain to contend with.
There is no "easy" answer pertaining to pain, meds, treatment, and options. You have to weigh your PERSONAL beliefs and come "clean" with yourself, where you are at, and if there is something, or anything, that you can do better. If there is, great, if not...that's okay too, continue to seek treatment until you can if that is at all possible.

Nothing worth living for is easy......

I hope you find what you are looking for here...we are all here with different stories, ideas, ways of dealing...yet we are all bonded by the same component...pain,meds and addiction.

Chezz

[Thomas03]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

So after 1.5 years of Vic addiction you had a painless detox? That's unusual to say the least. I'd like to know the details of your treatment.

I don't the think the recipe would be especially useful to you at this point. Since you're current treatment is so successful, I think you should stick with it.

Thomas

[RStew]

First of all, I as well as every person in this forum empathize with you. We know how it feels to have such a heavy burden on our chests and no one to talk to about it. That what is so great about this place...We are all going down the same road. Some are farther than others...hippie has made it a year, I've made it a month and there are many more success stories waiting to happen.

Second, If I hear you say you are "whining" one more time I AM GOING TO REACH THROUGH THE SCREEN AND SLAP THE **** OUT OF YOU! You are telling us what you haven't been able to tell others and that is what we are all here for. To share each other's stories and pain. You can lean on us when you can't talk to others.

You've been dealt a real bad hand, blue...But no matter how you feel about it, you CAN'T KICK YOURSELF. You didn't tell the horse to throw you, DID YOU? I know many people that couldn't walk 2 blocks in your shoes, let alone have to live with it daily. If daily pain and incapacity is a 'FREE RIDE' I'll pay my way, thank you!

Lastly, for now. As far as quitting the narcotics. You do that how you feel comfortable. If tapering works for you, DO IT! If you can stand cold turkey, that's fine...But no one said it was the best way. I had to go C/T because I have a tendancy towards abuse...If I was given my "taper" drugs, I'd swallow them in one crack!

You make sure you keep in touch...We are always here.

All my best. Rob

[too blue]

Thank you for the reassurance that you may have come through unscathed.  I take a bit less than you did so maybe I will be ok.  That story where the guy got the virus and then everything shut down.  Wow!  Really wish I did not have that visual to chew on today.  I really think I am just going to start tapering back slowly myself.  It might not be the best time since my depression meds are haywire but hey if I can even cut down one pill a day.  In my situation my doctor says to take it regularly as my pain is fairly severe.  His idea is not to let the pain get that severe but to stay ahead of it all the time with timed doses.  The thing I tell him is that there really are days when the pain level is down and I could go without meds all day and just take them as it gets bad at days end.  But now that I am on this 4 hour dosing schedule if I miss a does I get pain that I can live with but I get all nervous and jittery feeling too.  That's the part that  makes me feel like such an addict.  But if the pain is less then I just take 1 pill instead of 2 so I figure I helped my liver that day.  I am so sorry to rattle on and on about this but I do not discuss my health problems with anyone, ever.  Suddenly I feel like if I don't talk about it I am just going to lose it for good.  By that I mean people who are actually in the same boat, not the doctor or the therapist.  Believe me, I have been forced to avail myself of all the medical profession has to offer or I would have put myself down like the horse that started this whole nightmare.  And after all this whining, I feel I should point out that I have months and seasons that I do better and life is satisfying and I don't whine hours on end.  Limited, but I do eke out my little pleasures and I have good friends. And I do have a great sense of humor.  I am not just my meds.  Unfortunately, my health is a taboo issue to me, so I don't go to my friends for the support I would be able to have. And I ask them not to ask me how I am doing all the time. I just can't stand people knowing about it.  Shame, so much shame.  No matter how many times people tell you that you don't have to be ashamed of being ill of injured....well they just haven't been there.  When I finally faced my inability to work anymore, going on disability was the worst thing I have ever had to do.  Some people are very irritated to know their tax dollars are paying someone else's way.  When people make comments about must be nice to get a free ride, I always tell them I will trade them their job and healthy body for my body and my $600.00 a month free ride.  A bit difficult to do much with that amount of money.  My most basic needs are met but believe me I am not jetting over to Hawaii for the winter.  I am just grateful the safety net was there or I would be living under a bridge.  Well, I think I have exhausted my list of whines, I would so appreciate some feedback.  I really want to begin a taper down program and see what happens.  I know it is recommended to just go cold turkey but my doctor would have a fit if I did that.  I can't afford to lose his support at this time.  All comments welcome.

[RStew]

It's Rob, tooblue. I've been out for a couple days and I haven't had a chance to post. It's been beautiful here in Michigan and I'm trying to enjoy the weather! :-)

In regards to your question, the answer is, I don't really know. I have had quite a few days where I felt as if I was peeing thick orange soup (sorry for the visual) but my kidney function has been fine recently. As for my liver, my doctor did blood work last year and asked me if I had been drinking more than usual recently (I told him, yea) he said it was nothing to be alarmed about but that I should slow down a bit (little did he know that I haven't drank a drop in 10 years.)

I probably did some damage...But I am hoping that staying clean will allow my body to heal itself.

Hang in there, blue...whenever you need to talk, we are all here!

All my best! Rob