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How to help/deal with a loved one with a drug problem
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How to help/deal with a loved one with a drug problem

I feel like I'm at the end of my rope! Having a heart condition (open heart surgery) recently, the stress of dealing with a unhappy child on drugs and knowing what to do for them,the right way to handle the situation, and not cause them more trouble is
becoming more difficult each day. Question, do I keep calm and agree with them, listen to there problems,or get angry and shout and say "you have to help yourself first"? Please give me any advice so I will do the right thing.  Thank You!
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As an recovering addict myself, I can tell you with experience that until your loved one wants to get help for themselves, no amount of input (yelling, listening, agreeing or disagreeing) will change them at all.  The only thing you can do is find some support for yourself -- groups such as Al-Anon and Nar-Anon are two of the primary resources available to help people whose lives are touched by those abusing drugs and/or alcohol.  My prayers and best wishes are with you, and please feel free to use this forum as a resource in your own journey towards recovery.

Peace,
Pelle
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I am going to give you some more rope on this and I do not want you hanging yourself with it either.
I do not think anger helps you or the child,but it seems to be a natural response.
Now realize that one should attempt to gain control over their emotions by their intellect and using your will to do so and if you are lucky enough drawing upon your God to do so.
So I think the best way to approach the problem is with more thought and less of this emotion,"anger".
One must have intent in mind, to survive this situation, otherwise one may unintentionally do more harm than good, to both child and yourself.
but how do you fix both problems?, well you use your will to dipense with the anger,get rid of it,no good.
The Drug problem is difficult as you have given no specifics, but did the anger preceed it?, where you always angry?, has the anger any relationship to the drug problem other than that it occured as a response to it?.
This is a start at least.



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well, Pelle and Spook are both so right,  Brighty is a good one for this subject as she struggled with her own child and I know that is no secret to this forum...My own mom God rest her soul struggled with me and I remember the anger in her voice,,the first time she confronted me, which so quicky turned to fear...and then right into denial   her anger did nothing to stop me, as a matter of fact her anger led to my anger etc...it was a mess...we were all angry...anger is bad....is eats at you,,,it festers...then it all comes crashing down.....take what spook and pelle says to heart.....alanon, etc....they can help...love to all cindi
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Frankly, Leah, considering you're having (or have had) open heart surgery, your child should be asking you what he can do for YOU. I'm not saying addiction can be shrugged off simply because you have more acute care needs. I would give them the option of going to detox and rehab so that they can return home to help YOU, or leaving home for good so they can pursue their career as a full-time drug addict. Logic says that these courses of action are mutually exclusive. Your child cannot continue to practice his addiction -- which will only grow more and become more severe (i.e., all-encompassing and astronomically expensive) -- and even pretend to give you the help you need and deserve because of your heart problems. If you try to combat his addiction yourself, you will not only fail as virtually all parents fail, but will bring about your own death in the process. Just make sure that your addicted child is not sole beneficiary in your will, unless you want to see your life savings go up his nose or into his arm. You're in no position to be software-hearted or forgiving right now. My advice is, he either goes to rehab for the purpose of returning home to help you, or he moves out and makes it on his own, not bothering you with his endless need for drugs and all the financial and legal problems that that need will generate.

I am a 30-year-long prescription narcotic addict. Thank god and AA, I have enjoyed a period going-on three months free of narcotics. It doesn't sound like much in some ways, but it's opened my heart to others suffering from my same disease, while also hardening my heart toward addicts that are so caught up in their habits that they ignore the needs of a family member in dire need, such as in your case. Give your child hard choices. No wiggle room. No excuses. And you don't need to do it in anything but a calm, firm voice. For that matter, for moral support and understanding when you do it, first contact AA and ask for some members to come over and help you say what you need to say to this child. Believe me, call AA and you'll get a friendly, welcoming voice on the other end of the phone, with several fellow members ready to come over to your house right away. Needless to say, it's all-free and, believe me, very effective. Good luck with your heart problems, Leah. Take care of yourself.
P.S. Just remember, coming from the voice of experience: when an addict's addiction is "in full bloom," there is no room in their hearts for anything but their own needs. It's not that they're evil - they can start out being church-going, charity-giving pillars of the community. However, hard narcotics like heroin, speed (meth) or cocaine affect the human brain in ways that simply overwhelm all the good breeding or family upbringing in the world. NO ONE can withstand the effects of these drugs. Additionally, for some individuals, the same is true for the effects of alcohol. Don't delude yourself: even if you didn't have heart problems, your child's addictions would be too much for you to handle effectively.
To contact AA, you can either try your local Yellow Pages, or, perhaps, the directory at the following web address will have the number you need:

http://www.aa.org/CtrOff_d1.html

Best of Luck!

Thomas
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Everyone offered excellent advice filled with the truths that you may not fully understand if you are not an addict. I am not an addict and I will tell you that you need to get Thomas post and print it out and read it like it was your bible... right now is the time to begin.
His commentary is the Kick Ass truth right on down to the business of the will. Addiction is the most self centered condition on earth and will see you into your grave... until an addict suffers enough they are lost in a world of darkness and self destruction... and there is tremendous hope because my child was on heroin using a needle 8-10 times a day and now she is like an angel from heaven..... she had to suffer enough and try desperately to die before she was able to make an attempt at healing. If you do exactly, all that Thomas says. you will save yourself and create a situation where your child may eventually choose the healing that he/she deserves. But don't think you can do it your way... you were just given a treasure map... now please follow it. I have been there and Thomas is right.
Love, Brighty
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(Susanlea) Does anyone know what is a lethal dose for oxycotin and methadone?  I'm concerned with my ex, I found out he's using 4 to 7 pills of methadone aday. I was reading the reply about how it can stay in your liver, anyone know....Love you guys, Susanlea.......where are you Spook?
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Dear Leah,
  Hi. I came to this forum several weeks ago as you have. I was looking for advice on how to help my daughter ,age 22,that is an addict. The people on this forum are great help to each other and also to me. I too have a serious health problem.My daughter lived with me along with her husband and a four year old and a baby.I tried talking to her. Begging her.Telling her all the dangers and being there for her. All I got back was ,"tend to your own life,not mine."  I came to this forum and was told what to look for and what to exspect. I was given advice and lifted up when I was down.
   My daughter had it made here. They paid no rent. Didn't help with groceries.Didn't help with the chores and I took care of the four year old when she went out,which was often.Then I remembered this is my home! So I told her,respect me and your father,help where you can and I'll always be here for you.GET HELP! She didn't have a problem. She really didn't. She took her pain meds in a couple of days and then hit mine and I would end up doing without.I didn't think things could get worse but they did. She became not only disrespectful but started cussing her father and me out whenever she felt like it. Final straw. I realized I was being the co-dependant. I was making it possible for her to get her drugs. She could buy then when her prescriptions ran out because she didn't have to pay for anything.With strength from God and words of wisdom from the people on this forum, the next time she cussed us out, I through her out. Yes ,kids and husband too. I knew they had the money to get an apartment.If they didn't they could sleep in the car. I knew she loved the kids too much to let them be hurt.So they did get an apartment and she promised she would never speak to me again.Within in 2 days she was talking. It's been 2 weeks now and they are making it.She approached me for the first time last week about rehab . She's on probation and afraid she'll go to jail if she doesn't get help. She's right.Now she has to do it or spend 3 years in jail if she breaks her probation. Whatever happens,she's in controll of it.I have a book called tough love. I knew what I should do but couldn't for fear of what would happen to her. That's why it's called tough love.Don't let her destroy you like I almost let my daughter do to me and my husband. If she is a minor,get her put on probation.Here we have a program that helps minors and parents.Sorry this is so long but do talk to the people on this forum.They care.Don't get scared off when the conversation gets strange. I nearly did but was patient and realized they know each other well enough to speak their mind and still care about each other.
    God Bless,
        Kerrie
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thanks for the support. Hope all is well with you.
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It's the truth I am supporting and you chronicled it as well as I've ever seen it done....I think you have some ministry ahead Thomas... I wish someone had told it to me quite the way you told it to Leah... but then again, I was deaf and blind then.

How am I doing ??????????????????? You're not following the neverendingthread ??? It's a totally whigged out thread and it has been a ghastly experience.

Love, Brighty
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Can't tell you how I felt tonight when I opened the site and found so many caring  people. It truly brought tears to my eyes, to think you all took your time to be concerned about my problem when you have problems of your own. I want to answer each one and thank each one personally for the support and advise.
I really feel you are right about getting support from one of the groups mentioned. I think I knew this all along, but it is scary because it makes one face the situation and no longer believe it will go away any day. My daughter is a grown women in her forties, with five children. I guess, because we have always been so close and supportive of each other, I feel like it is a betrayal. I have carried this alone for so long! I know know that I'm not alone.......thank you for your prayers and best wishes. Mine also go along with you.

LEAH
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Hi Cindi,
  Hope you don't mind my asking, but once before you mentioned to me about your mothers death and the pain your in. My mother passed away 1 year ago as of May 2nd. Yep, right before mothers day. I've had to hold in a lot of the pain of her death as my sisters aren't able to talk about it yet.She was in a lot of pain. Anyway, if you need to talk you can e-mail me at:
***@****. Sometimes it helps to go through things with someone whose going through it too.
  Spook,brightly,Thomas,Annie, all of you,the way you help people that come to this forum looking for answers is to be commended. I only wish I could get my daughter to talk to all of you. Your concern is appreciated from this 44 year old mother and grandmother of 9.I just wanted to thank you all. There's a lot of good in yall.Remember that when someone tries to put you down,they doing it because their weak. You do help people here. I know.
    Thanks , Kerrie






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Thank you,,,that means alot to me when someone offers to talk with me...My mom died on Christmas morning ater a long batle with emphysema...please feel free to e-mail as well @***@****
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I know all will be well w/ you.  See my posts under "anyone"
I have to go now.......Dee, if your reading this, I didn't forget about you.  I wish you well, also.
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When my life has reached its very end,
And I take that final breath;
I want to know I've left behind,
Some "good" before my death.
I hope that in my final hour,
In all honesty I can say:
That somewhere in my lifetime,
I have brightened someone's day.That maybe I have brought a smile
To someone else's face,And made one moment a little sweeter
While they dwelled here in this place.Lord, please be my reminder
And whisper softly in my ear ...
To be a "giver," not a "taker,"
In the years I have left here.  Give to me the strength I need,
Open up my mind and my soul
That I might show sincere compassion,
And love to others before I go.For if not a heart be touched by me,And not a smile was left behind ...
Then the life that I am blessed with,
Will have been a waste of time.With all my heart, I truly hope
To leave something here on earth ...
That touched another, made them smile
And gave to my life ... worth.
~ Author Unknown ~

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I thought ONLY time `healed` wounds like this, I have not lost a mother or father ).yet). and we are all so different in our way of handling it.I think you are doing fine and wish you luck, I am yet to cross this bridge.It sounds horrible though.
Luke
p.s Cindi-hello, you are kind person.
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Hi back to you spook and you are just as kind. I thought also that time heals all wounds but  so far I have only felt worse  like it is so permanent as i am selling her house getting rid of her belongings   her personal life  IT iS DESTROYING ME..as I sit here typing I can't help but let the tears come and i can't turn them off and it seems this week alone (and it is only Tuesday) I have been hurt all over again....I have lost someone that I care about not by death but other circumstances  it seems like the sadness for certain things never seems to leave me....my heart is breaking for several reasons but my mom is my sadness,  I think it is time for grief counseling....I don't know but I have to find my faith again,  it just can't help but questioning the fact is my mom really up in heaven watching me?  does she know the pain I am in...does she know that it won't take alot to push me over the edge?  If she is aware of this, i know she is sad for me....and that hurts even more.. and is my mom, the one  that gave me life, is she finally happy really?  and pain free?  ok,  I can't seem to finish this post right now....but i do need help...and I don't even know where to begin.......  Thank you for listening  love to all cindi
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I agree with you all the way about anger not helping me or my child. I'm working on this and will continue to do better.
Without you knowing any of the specifics, I can only tell you my anger started with her having a boy friend that was doing drugs long before she knew him.He has been a bad influence and I feel she would not have made these bad choices if he had not taken advantage of her low self esteem. This is the best way I can answer your question about the anger. You have given me something to really think about and yes,it is a start. Thanks for your insight and I will bbe posting again.
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Cindi, the most important thing is you are not holding back the tears, that can harden one,it has its benefits but it is also nice to just have a good cry, I have run out of tears myself, but maybe they will accumulate again.(sore throat though)
The main reason you are feeling worse is because you are currently doing the house thingy, that is a *******, I would say ***** but it really is a ******* as all of the memories are in there ,this is probably one of the hardest things you will have to do, I sat in my mothers house and imagined it without her and it felt empty, I know the feeling but just have not been there yet, it must be really bad right now, you have come to the right place as many caring people are here for you, you do not need a councilor, and I will push you back from any dangerous edges you approach, it is your friend here who will help you.Try not to think about the physics of post life consciousness remanifestation, as God deals with this and everthing is in good hands, you do believe don`t you?.You have made a beggining now and I think if you need strength to carry on a place to find it.
sincerely spook
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thank you for your thoughtfullness and kind words...yes the house is a ***** and a *******....this is the house I grew up in so i am not only throwing away her memories but also mine  good, bad and indifferent. and my sister's and my dad's..at least up until he moved out....I feel like I am watching my life slip through time....I think yuu may know I do not deal very well with change especially change that is unwelcome....I do know I have friends here.. I ran into an old friend of mine today that I do have some what of a past with and he did send his sympathy which sent me flying into memories etc....of course putting me in "one of my moods"    thank you for your nice post....you are a kind friend    Love to all...  cindi
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I know I am relatively new here, and have never really corresponded with you, but after reading your last few post just wanted to share something.

Brief history of my parents:  father died in 1992, suddenly though not really unexpectedly.  I was introduced to painkillers at home by him (Tylenol 4) and he was addicted for at least 10 years that I knew of.  After a heart procedure 1n March of 1992, he arrested in the hospital and his heart was restarted three times.  He lasted 24 days on a ventilator and then died.  This was the most awful thing I have ever experienced and was a period of my highest drug use.

I then went into the field of geriatrics and began working with the elderly, many of whom were Alzheimer's patients.  I prayed all that time that my mother would never acquire that disease.

She was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease in 1998 at the age of 70.  She continued to be able to live at home until this January, when her wandering and lack of personal care forced my brother and I to move her to a long-term care facility.

And now, my family home is empty.  In order for her to qualify for residence where she now lives, my brother and I must sell the home.  This will be taking place very soon now, within the next few months.  I dread going back there, to a house that was *never* empty, and cleaning out and taking the things I wish to have from my childhood.  Aside from my father's death and my mother's diagnosis, I think that this task, along with the demolition of the home itself which is to follow, will be one of the most painful experiences of my life.  I don't know how similar this is to your situation, but I just wanted you to know that, in my own way, I can understand a bit of what you're going through and share some of your sorrow.

Peace,
Pelle
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Thank you for sharing that with me,  I have said that sometimes I feel so alone but then I run across people that are hurting as much as I am if not worse.....Being a nurse I know how devastating Alzheimer's diseas can be , my grandma also suffers from this horrible disease  and I see my dad and my aunts and how they are so sad they feel like their mom has already died as she is unresponsive and so distorted in appearance it would be a blessing if she were to go...My mom had been ill for a very long time and she was on a vent also....I knew she was dying but I thought since she had always been so strong that whe would pull through this also....sort of a denial...my main problem right now and I have discussed this before is on Christmas eve they called me after I left there and said she was in a coma and I was there when she went into the coma, and she would not make it till morning but they said she was not aware that i was not there and to stay home with my gramma (her mom) and my w little kids,  the roads were bad and there is nothing I could do for her.......I SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE   they promised to call if there was a change   I called them and she was the same,   by morning i was going to call them but they called me and said please come up, now she was in V-tach and i needed to be there    I arrived 10 minutes too late.  I WILL NEVER FORGIVE MYSELF FOR NOT BEING THERE...as she would have been for me...how could I have been so selfish as to not go that night.....I should have not listened to them.....I am so terribly sorry for you loss and for the pain you are going through with you mom.....and they say kids are the ones to cause their parents grief,    God should take the parents  not take the kids from parents, but it all is still so painfull I appreciate your words     God be with you,  I have seen your posts alot here and I have been meaning to tell you that you are a great source of intelligence and kindness.....I have always enjoyed reading what you post.....love to all    cindi
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Thank you for your kind words.  I only hope to help in any way  I may be able anyone who may share any of my situations or experiences.

It's very strange how similar some aspects of our stories are. . .the evening my father passed away was one of the only days I did not get in to see him.  Every single one of my previous trips ended with me stopping in the hospital's visitor restroom (I can still remember how it smelled, faintly of disinfectant, and sterile), and crying for twenty minutes or so before emerging to drive home (and this after uncountable Vicodins!)  I hated going to see him like that and I hated myself for feeling that way, and for the relief I felt when he finally did die.  I remember the hospital calling that evening and telling us to come in but not to hurry.  Of course, I knew that meant only one thing.  Still, to arrive and see him was something I will never forget.  They had disconnected him from the vent and all the other monitors and machines which had filled the room for the past twenty-four days.  The room seemed so still and quiet.  And my father, disconnected from everything, looked so much more peaceful.  Although he could not speak during his suffering (because of the trach tube), I could see from his eyes that he was alert during his periods of wakefulness (which grew mercifully shorter as time went on) and -- this is the worst part -- aware of his situation.  He never would have wanted to be alive that way.

The point is, Cindi, that for years I felt that I had somehow let him down by not being there when he died, and especially for not visiting him that day at all.  I hated myself for that and so many other things. . .my failures, my addictions, my chronic weirdness (for lack of a better term), and for the fact that on some level I still hated my father for introducing me to drugs as a teenager and for giving me the genetic predisposition to addiction in the first place.  

All of these hatreds allowed -- indeed, encouraged -- me to continue to use.  Because what is addiction, as has been said before, but the slowest, most torturous method of suicide possible?  I believed myself unworthy to live, and since I would need two hands to crucify myself, I chose instead to break myself upon the cross of drugs.  Please understand that I am in no way comparing myself to Jesus.  This is just the metaphor which comes most readily to my mind as far as the most extreme method of torture that I can imagine.

I said all that only to say this to you:  you must not hate yourself for your decision.  I could give you many reasons -- your mother was not aware anyway (the hospital staff told you as much); the weather was horrible; your kids and your grandmother needed you more at home with them at such a trying time; and many more I'm sure I could think of given world enough and time.  But the main reason I have, and it sounded in my heart as soon as I read your post, is twofold, and goes something like this:

hatred for yourself can only lead you further into addiction and eventual death, and most importantly. . .*your mom would not want you to feel this way*.  What mother would wish to see her child in agony, even for a moment, and especially if it was over something which concerned them?  And what mother would want to be a part of their own beloved child's destruction?

I hope I am not being presumptuous, but all I am telling you is the strong, almost overwhelming emotional resonance I got upon reading your post.  I do not claim to be a psychic, like Miss Cleo, or anyone who communes with the dead, but my feelings about things like this have been accurate my entire life.  I operate best in the realm of the not-quite-seen, but imagined, and am most comfortable with the language of the heart.  This is how I finally came to believe that the last thing that my dad would want is for me to go on abusing myself, especially over things he had done.  If it were me who had gone on, and I saw my own beautiful son (who is now but five months old) destroying himself over things I had done, I believe I would voluntarily leave heaven (if I had been there at all) and enter hell to await him so that I could one day apologize and -- perhaps -- earn his forgiveness.

Please accept this message in the spirit it was intended. . .perhaps rambling, fanciful, even a little mad, if you do not believe in such things as I have spoken of -- but know it is from my own human heart, a place which frequently makes no sense in the mortal realm in which we live.

Your mom is watching you even now, Cindi -- and she awaits the day when her little girl will be well again and you and she can rejoice together.

Peace,
Pelle
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my silent tears as I sit here and read your post have now turned into bursting sobs as your post was one of pure beauty and of sincere heartfelt understanding.....My God, what we go through in life....Mommy told me before she died that God would not give me what I could not handle and that her concern for me was what was frightening her the most, she would pray that her death would not drag me back down to where I had worked so hard to get out of.. she watched me and helped me climb my way back from the very deep dark pit  of addiction, bailing me out of jail twice and encouraging me to hold my head up and walk proudly when I was so ashamed of my addiction...so often I made her cry, I hurt her and scared her with my behavior, but her love was nothing but pure and unconditional....and I know that I will never be loved like she loved me ever again...a mother's love is truly like no other...she was treated badly in the nursing home  they at one point refused to increase her pain medication for fear she would become addicted,  they did not believe her when she told them she was going to die,   I knew it  when the nursing home called and said she was confues a little bit and when I got there and this is the God's truth, before she went to the hospital she looked up in the air and pointed her weak finger and said "I told you I'll be there in a little while....she did this twice...i asked her who she was talking to and she said she could not breath and she would tell me later......she never did,  i talked to her doc, who told me that by assuring her it was ok to sleep I pushed her into peace, I gave her the ok to do what it was time to do.....She knew, and in my heart I knew but i still could not accept it...I do believe things happen for a reason, perhaps she did not want me there to see her take her last breath, and dying on the holiest day of the year was (which was her favorite day) certainly had some significance.....I do believe in everything you have said to me, and Kerrie has e-mailed me also. between the two of you and of course MY spook  (and he may get upset for me referring to him as MY spook but oh well   SORRY spook, old habits die hard)  my dear Brighty and Angelica i could not have asked for anything more than your kindness and compassion,  we all have our pain and our sorrows and to be honest with you I had considered not even coming back to this forum but how can I not?   It is here with all of you that I am able to be me, to cry, to share and not be ashamed of my feelings..... and to have such wonderful people such as all of you....and the funny thing is that all of a sudden I feel more at peace than I have since her death....8:46 am, December 25th will always be the worst moment of my life but in it's own right she was a good enough person that God saw fit to take her home with him on the Birthday of his very own son....he must have thought she was one special creation to have done that for her....and you were so right when you said your dad when you saw him looked peaceful,,,,,,i distinctly remember when my gram and I saw my mom after she had died the first thing I said is look gram,  she is not struggling to breathe and she looks so peaceful and painfree now.....thank you my friends   love t all cin
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The above post was for the both of you as well as pelle,  thank you for being so kind and understanding.........love cin
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I peeked in...:-)

The above posts are the essence of our humanity.. birth, our lives, death, renewal... an eternal cycle...and in the life cycle we are sometimes lucky to live long enough to have an awakening...we've finally lived long enough that something we never thought about has happened.... to me this is a turning point where we are stripped naked and realize we are not our careers, not our worldly goods, not invincible, ... we are maybe for the first time learning about how mortal we are... how very tiny we are in this huge universe... alone in the houses with our childhood memories ,hearing all the voices,reliving all the joys, and all the regrets, wondering how we got this way, how it all happened in the blink of an eye and will the pain ever be eased. I don't know if many us ever get a handle on what this is all about....maybe that's why we seem to have a commonality...we seem to get to a particular chronological age and we begin to have more appreciation, more compassion, more empathy, we still forget and fall on our faces but are more willing to yield, more willing to be humble and maybe a bit better prepared for the next milestone. We still have time to do thing a bit better to not be so cavalier, so self serving. Maybe this is why grandparents are often so different than they were with their own children... it's like another chance to do it right.  Reading the posts between Cindi and Pelle has been the finest dialogue I have seen here in the past year and it is very very much addiction medicine, it is also addiction healing. It's very evident to me that Luke came here and gave us permission to be who we really are and we have come from being boxed up question and answer group to an open forum... sort of appropriate I think. Whenever I go to mass it seems I am always at the one when they do the sermon of the Prodigal Son..( you can tell how often I go !!:-)) I have always wondered if the son were to tell his/her story what it would be...I think it has been told here today. As the mother of an addict and the daughter of a dad with Alzheimers I have listened to your stories and felt every emotion and cried every tear along with you. You are continually providing the healing that I so desperately seek. Thank you both so very much. Love, Maria
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I am still here, I am dealing with a VERY serious problem with my sister, so I will be in and OUT more often than not, but will catch up sooner or later. I do not want to discuss it because it is incredibly complex and actually WAY beyond my comprehension, it is very emotionally taxing and VERY spooky. Please nobody speak of this it is seriously weird and I need time to sort through meaning of it all, it is absolutely full on, like some bizzare science fiction-(maybe not though)! movie, but horrific personal impact, this one is a spinner,it would take pages and pages to just start to explain it, I am handling it but honesty there is some seriously strange things going on in this world (shes breaking up captain) and not in this world?, I have read all the posts and can empathize with you all, my dilema will frighten you so never speak of this. I know you may be intrigued but this one is not safe, do not go there, I thought I had seen it all, and this one has me baffled, can the impossible happen and what if it does, how do I deal with that, I thought reality was a black and white matter, I have always talked about Quantum Consciousness and Metaphysics etc, but this, well I am concerned, something REALLY strange is going on and a reality check continues to confirm my fear, this one does not belong to this reality, but still it persists, it exists but cannot exist, how can this be so?, there is something out there and I hope it does not come your way. I say again let me deal with it, We have people helping involved with Paranormal phenomena and other Metaphysical, Mystic and Psychic fields along with professional Psychiatric intervention, a lot of people are losing it over this one, something we may all have to deal with eventually, maybe its a nightmare, but I pinch myself and yep not a dream, and now its like either my sister has telepathically communicated with alien entities in the subspace matrix or well there is no other conclusion, many people in this line of knowledge are giving advice and we have more data to process than is humanly possible created by her in a mere 3 weeks and I cannot understand hardly any of it, too complex.She is Heavily tranqualized in hospital now and we do not know if she ever be ok to function again,
Must go.Need time
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Brighty,   what can I say,  it wa so incredibly wonderful to see you post again....Even though we keep in touch via e-mail there is something so ver special about seeing your posts as you have contributed so very much to this forum and to my life....and I may get yelled at for saying this but,,,,I do love you!! thank you for the beautiful words and for just being my friend Brighty...and to Spook, all I can say at this time in your life,  May God be with you and your sister...if you need me,,,you know where I am.....I love you as well my dear friend....oh hell  I love you all.....Brighty,  i just got home from the infamous 1st grade skating party and will hop online before ER  LOL and answer your mail,   I do have a pic or 2 for you to celebrate our friends 40th Birthday   LOl    love to all cindi
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yes, emphysema is a terrible way to go, your lungs and breath literally sucked out of you...I also made the decision to allow my mom to die without any agressive measures,  and I have never ever at any moment regretted that decison..perhaps it has to do with me being in the medical profession and I knew in my heart that anything extreme would have been futile...I knew that the medication they were giving her was the best they could do and it was her time...but I never thought her time would ever come  does that make sense?  my mom to me was immortal, she would never die, as children we truly believe that, now I am thinking the same about my dad, he is 63, and healthy so he is never going to leave me, and make me an orphan...my children think the same thing about me.....my children are small, 3 and 7 so they can think like that, I however am supposed to be an adult at the age of 40 but yet I feel not at all like a grown up when it comes to my parents...dad is still very protective of me being his first born etc. and mom, she was just plain fiercely protective of both my sister and I, she even yelled at the cops when they came to arrest me..LOL  yes, Wiz My mom lived for my sister and I, then along came the grandkids....LOL  and the love I had and have for my mom, this is the person that gave me life, loving her is only part of it,  the respect, the admiration I have for this woman, she fought to live, to be with her kids, she had such strength....and in so very many ways she remids me of my very dear friend Brighty.... Brighty has struggeled  and has risen from the bowels of addiction with her child, as did my mom, never judging me, fearing death not for herself but for me,,,what would happen to me...and yet her love remained unconditional...and I can only hope that I am and will always be to my children the kind of mother that mine was to me...and that Brighty is to her's  I miss her terribly as I know you miss your dad...i go to call her and then i remember that she is not there, i am lost, i wrote to Brighty earlier tonight asking her for advice that I would run to my mom for....and if you read my post above or below i don't know where it is you'll see that I am dealing with alot of guilt for not being there with her when she died,,,,Wiz,   I am so sorry for OUR loss....You say not all the opiates in the world can fill the hole in your heart,  you are so right,  My God, I know how you feel,and that is what is so wonderful about thse people here,they may not all have lost someone they love but they know pain, they all have their way of dealing with things and they share their wisdom, strength and hope and experiences with us, and someday I hope to be able to give back to them what they have given to me....God bless you my friend, and may they, the ones we love and lost rest in peace, which they have finally found..Love to all         cindi
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You know Thomas, I'm not thinking about by health conditions in the terms of myself. I just want to help my children find  a "life" where they can live without the need of "pills" or "alcohol" to cope with all the stress out there today. I know my kids love me and when they are thiking straight, they don't try to burden me with all there problems. But,other times I don't think they realize what this really does to a parent. When something does happen to me, I don't want them to blame there selves and destroy the rest of there life and their families , because I wouldn't admit there problem was this bad yet.  
I have not told my best friend's or family members about this problem.
Congrat on your period of almost three months free of drugs and I wish you sincerely the strength to continue. I do intend to seek help with AA or one of the rehab centers soon.
With your experience, I know you can understand what I'm feeling and the questions that I need to have answered. I never felt for a moment that things said or done was comming from being evil.
I will be reading you post over and over when I need to do the right thing. Good Luck to you and God Bless.  Lea
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Hello Everyone,
  I just wanted to say I think it's important for people to share their pain with others. As for me,sometimes this is my only outlet. I have written to Cindi about a lot I'm going through in hopes we might help each other. I see that there are a  few of us with the same guilt of not being with a parent when they passed away. I had left my father after his heart surgery, knowing in my heart he wouldn't make it. But at the insistance of everyone I went home. He died and my mother was at the hospital,2 hours away, alone. I had the guilt of not being there with him or her. I know now,nothing would of changed by my being there. But I wouldn't of nearly died from the guilt I felt. I would of course felt guilt from something though. That's how our minds work. Not our hearts. We all had good reasons why we weren't there but like I told Cindi, ours minds don't tell our hearts it's o.k.  I had to forgive myself like someone wisely said earlier.
  I know for some that the drugs probley were a problem during times like these. I know how that is too. You just didn't want to hurt so bad. You wanted something to fill the emptiness in the middle of your heart. My sister that is an addict, got a prescription for valium 10 mg. from my mothers doctor when my mom was dying. He knew all of us and wanted to give us something to help us calm down. She got them filled and took a lot . She couldn't talk or walk and finally passed out. We got the pills and hid them from her. She called the law on us. This at the hospital with my mom on her death bed. The doctor had her escorted off the grounds. The next day she begged the hospital administrator to let her come back. He left it up to us. We forgave her and wanted her there. She just didn't want to hurt. She didn't want to feel anything. I understand how she felt. But be strong and don't let this happen to any of you. Your doing great. I keep up with your progress daily and care for all of you.
  I only wish my daughter would face her monsters and seek help like so many here have. Keep talking friends. Keep the faith.You are all in my prayers. Even if you didn't ask for them.
    Kerrie
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God does work in mysterious ways.  Just as I was about to die from pain of losing mom and the guilt and the only if" and what if"s and everything else our minds do to us God once again Intervenes with his divine wonders by putting you all in front of me. he works through people and I have seen that...My faith is not gone, as all of you have told me,  it is merely hidden by pain....I never stopped believing in the Lord, just perhaps asking too many questions that I had no business asking but as a human could not help it?  I remember telling my friend Luke that sometimes our vision is clouded for one reason or another and it takes an outside person to help us to see the light again,  sometimes my pain is so overwhelming that i feel like I am choking, my chest hurts, my body trembles and aches, and this is when my vison becomes cloudy and it becomes so difficult for me to realize that others suffer like I do, and when I feel like closing myself to the world, something tells me to go to the forum, not pray....but go to the forum,  it is here I find the answers that I am searching for, Now, someone may jump on here and tell me I am substituting this forum for being in touch with my real higher power, etc...no, my friends,  I am not using this forum as a substitute for a higher power, this forum and my friends have reminded me that I DO have a higher power whom I choose to call God, and at this point in my life he is carrying me through, only some days I have to find that out for myself....and I have with the help of all of you....love to all and to Spook,  please be ok Luke......I am praying for you and sis........love   cindi
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Well Cindi, you said someone was gonna jump on you after your last statement about replacing God with the forum! Well, here I am! Only I'm here to attest to you that I BELIEVE GOD led me to this forum! He IS carrying you in your time of need and girl, he must have some BIG ASS ARMS cause he's carrying me too! Let me tell ya I'm a BIG BOY! I've have found more friends and support here in the last few days then I have found around me in the last 30 years of using...Lady, THAT"S DIVINE! Hang in there for the long haul because the light's at the end...I swear I see it!
Peace and God's Love to you Cindi,
Love the Wiz!
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Thank you for understanding wht I meant,  I hope my statement was clear that like you, I believe God lead me to this forum as well, I have to admit I did feel my faith slip, but it was here on this forum that I came when I felt at my lowest point ever even through my years using i did not feel this bad, but I do believe things happen for a reason and only through Divine intervention did I find this forum, it had never occured to me to search the net for addiction medicine forums...never ever would I had done that on my own....God herself  (only kidding, at least I have found my sense of humor again) led me here and put you people in my life, each and every one of you...even those of you that I have never had the opportunity to share and converse with, each person has input into this forum and each and every post I read has something to offer me even if it is subliminal, the message may be conveyed at a time other than the exact moment I read it but the message is still there, and this forum is a tribute to humanity in it's Sunday best...May God be with us all as he really does have big ass arms to carry all of us, that is why he is call God the almighty....Love to all cindi and PS WIZARD  thanks for jumping on me,,,LOL  Keep posting, I enjoy reading.....
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Cindi, my above post and the one below where I butted in and talked about my father and hospice were written before I read more about you.  How Ironic to find out how much a like we all are. I lost my father to emphysema December 11th, 1997.  It was a terrible way to die.  Not a day goes by that I don't think of him
or blame myself for turning off the life support when the Hospice people told me it was doing no good. I keep thinking would he have woken up for another day with me? But then God tells me no I only ended his suffering.....but it's a BIG hole in my heart that I don't think all the opium in the world could fill....Heaven knows I tried...but I really DO BELIEVE God will only give us what we can handle with his help. I'm so very sorry about your loss. She must have loved you very much and you her.
It's okay to cry and let go. I am what I consider a very macho
guy and I'm crying like a baby right now as I write this.  I'm crying for the both of us. I feel your pain as I relive mine.
Don't despair and NEVER give up hope.
We all love you,
God Bless you,
love Wizard
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Dear Cindi and Wizard,
   I read your postings and wanted to say a few things. I've written Cindi a lot the last few days.We too have a lot in common. What I wanted to say was this. I carry the guilt of talking my father into having his heart surgery and leaving him after the surgery being told he was doing great and knowing better in my heart. He died two hours after I left the hospital.I talked him into the surgery. He told me he knew he was going to die. I thought I would die everytime my mom would say "I'm so glad I didn't ask him to have the surgery." Would he still be alive if he hadn't had the surgery? The doctors say he would of died within days for sure without it. It was his only chance. But I talked him into it. I nearly died after his death. I too thought I had lost my faith. But I was in so much pain because of loosing him,that I couldn't tell God was holding me together. Why didn't I take my life when I felt it was the only way to escape the pain. Because my faith kept me holding on even though I couldn't feel anything but sorrow and guilt. Like Wizard said, God big arms. They  were around me keeping me safe even though I didn't feel his presence. Like the song says,"He was there all the time". I'm thankful I can see that now so I can assure others that are feeling the emptiness, your faith doesn't leave you. Your just in mourning. It's like the poem says,when there is only one set of foot prints in the sand it's because God is carrying you. We may not see it at the time but like a wise man  once said,time really does make a difference. Your in my prayers.
    Kerrie
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Thank you so much for the response back. So much loss, so much guilt, so much pain....Yet, with it, here I find so much love,so much hope, so much help....I only wish I could reach through the screen and hold all of you if only just for a brief moment. To look into each of your eyes and know that this is not just a cyber dream.....As the tears now fall even again down my cheeks......I realize that I find the answer to my question....my heart tells me that all of you are there......reaching back through this screen to touch me..........FAITH in my heart tells me it's not a cyber dream....
Hope tells me you all will still be here at all points af my journey back from the "Dragons" pit....as I sit here late on the eve of my 7th day yet again the "Dragon" whispered in my ear.....only this time it was fainter.....with your love and support.....I SHUT THE ******* UP AGAIN! lol May God shed his everlasting light upon us all!!
LOVE and PEACE to all,
Wizard
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NO WIZ, IT IS NOT A CYBER DREAM,  WE ARE ALL HERE FOR EACH OTHER OOPS, sorry,i didn't mean to talk tthat loud  LOL...I read your posts and i feel what you are feeling,  i know the pain can be and is very overwhelming....if you ever want to e-mail me, please do,  ***@**** receive alot of mail from people that are in our situation and talking can be very helpful..and here,  right through the screen is a big hug back to you....love to you my friend   cin
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when I inquired about your health, you referred me to a thread? Which thread?
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Wizard,
    My friend. The dragon is strong but your stronger. 7 days is great. I wish my daughter was 7 days without drugs. I wish she wanted to be clean. I'm proud of everyone in this forum. I'm sure they'll be more help to you than me. I came looking for help for my daughter and never knew how much I would be helped. I've cried with people in mental and physical pain. I know both. I could just as easy be one of you. I don't know why I don't have a problem with the drugs. But I do have a problem with pain.I know how easy it is to go past the line .I have wanted so many times to take an extra pill to get rid of the pain.I don't know why I didn't do it.But I can understand anyone who did do it.I could never stand being light headed and pain meds do that.I get sick and vomit if it gets bad enough.Maybe that's a blessing in disguise. Anyway, you be proud of your 7 days. Anytime you feel the demon talking to you,come to this forum. There's some really caring folks on this line.I  can tell by your comments you have faith in God. Talk to Him. You may not think He's listening but He is. Sometimes I think my husbands asleep when I'm talking to him until I ask him what I said.He always repeats what I said.I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I don't think God will hear me because I'm out of His will. But remember He didn't walk away from you. He's still there. I'm sorry for your pain.I know you'll make it Wizard.
      Kerrie
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I am feeling unreal, life is great, what else can I say???.
No drugs just some good old fashioned love.
I made a nice thai Red chicken Curry tonight, yum.(lots of green beans.potatoe and red capsicum)
cooking is fun and I like riding my bike around the swan river,sometimes the sun is so warm and the water cool and refreshing, every cell in my self is alive.
Who is talking about lost faith???
God I love you, just a though.......just passing through..........
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I'm glad you are enjoying life and doing well, that's the power of love...any kind of love and the old fashioned love is better than any drug I know....and Luke,,,I don't think you have any enemies here...have a great bike ride  May God be with you
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There are "sea horses" in the Swan river here in perth, maybe have a look at them??, very mysterious creatures.The biketrack leads all the way from where I live near the harbour into perth along the river, I saw  2 dolphins swimming together the other day, they friendly critters too.
I thought bookitty may be loitering, no enemies, cool.....
But who could handle working with old Charlie Manson?, Marilyn is weird enough thankyou!, in the nicest way REALLY!/!?(confused), the world is just CRYING out for such EMPATHETIC critters. oh the joy/pain....what a pleasure to be alive.Opioids SUCK!!!!!!!!!!
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I think charlie and Marilyn are definately related somehow...I love sea creatures..almost as much as the Koalas and you know how i feel about the koalas they are the cutest things I have ever seen.. (besides my kids  LOL)everything I have read about Australia sounds so beautiful and I know i will never see it because I do not fly..(my cousin and his wife (4 mos pregnant) were killed in  a plane crash coming home from Italy...the plane crashed in Pittsburgh Pa. about 6 years ago) but I have always dreamed of seeing the Great Barrier Reef and i just picture the little kangaroos and koalas just roaming around...and I think the firecracker did Boo kitty in  LOl  actually I think she came and apologized?  maybe I'm wrong but kittys don't like firecrackers uo their butts   LOl   have a great one  so, nope absolutely no enemies here my friend   cin
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Hi Leah,

Just to keep things honest, I haven't been 3 months free of drugs. I've been free of all the opiates which dominated my life, that is true. But I'm still trying to taper off of benzos, such as Xanax, without having a seizure. I have now had three in the last two months and, by doc's orders, are not to try to take myself off of the benzos by myself. Just wanted to correct that misinterpretation or, if my fault, mistatement. Hope all is as well as can be with you. Thanks for thinking of me.
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Hi spook,
    Your question ,who's talking about lost faith? Earlier Cidi mentioned about her faith. I was trying to encourage anyone who is a believer, that faith is hard to find in times of sorrow. I too was in that condition after the loss of my father. The pain was so overwhelming. I only meant to give an opinion about faith  and not thinking it's there in sorrowful times. I wasn't implying they had loss their faith but that their faith was hidden by sorrow. Wizard seems to have a strong hold on his faith and I think he understood I was to give him some help and not condeming him. I hope that he understood my comments. I've written to Cindi (e-mail) and had wonderful conversations with her. I hope she knows it wasn't critisim but concern from someone that has been where she is. When my mother died a year ago, I went through a hard time then but it was easier to let her go because she was suffering so. So if I have hurt anyone with my comments, I am sorry. But we're only human and God knows that and helps us when we're weak.
     Thanks Spook,
            Kerrie        
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My mistake Thomas! I think I did misunderstand. However, I'm still proud of what you have accomplished and what you are trying to do for yourself. Being new to this site, I have so much to learn and believe me I'm learning something. lol Can't help but feel intimidated when everyone seems to be able to express thereself so well!! I have a hard time saying what I mean. Right now, I'm reading the post's and maybe in time will be more relaxed. I believe it was Kerrie that said to  me not to get scared off by some conversations.It is it wonderful that you all can be such a support together. Count me in.....leah
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Hi Kerrie,  I have just read your post to spook and in no way am I offended by your help..you have helped me so much it is unbelievable..I do understand about my faith being shadowed by my pain.....listen I have to run now..have a ton of things to get done and spend some time with My Man  LOL   i'll send ya some mail later    love cin.
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Hi kerrie,  I went to send you some e-mail and can't remember your e-mail address   no, not senility  LOL   just a ton of things going on at once..so, please,,,if you don't mind would you send it to me again  besides, I'd love to hear from you love cin
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well, you're off to a great start, leah. I look forward to your posts. When it moves you, tell more of your story -- there's always more to tell!

not that you asked ...

PS Saw Depp in Blow. Engrossing movie that doesn't make you jones at all for the white stuff. It's actually a fairly sad movie, but good.

My tip of the year moviewise is 'Enemy at the Gates," with Jude Law. It's depiction of the battle of Stalingrad is unforgetable. From a true story. 4 stars.


Tom
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Kerrie,Cindi;

"Faith", n, Reliance, Trust, belief founded on authority, belief in religious doctrines, esp. such as affects character and conduct, spiritual apprehension of divine truth apart from PROOF!!, system of religious belief? (the christian, jewish, hindu, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc).

"I"- demanded PROOF and received it, "I" never had "Faith", now "I" know the facts, "God" does exist!! My Knowledge works for me and does not require Faith, only (consciousness),insight and intellect.

"I" n, (Metaphysical) the "I" , the ego, OR object of self- CONSCIOUSNESS, from this we deduce ego or self is separate!! from consciousness, ie that "I" is simualtaneously Conscious and of the "self"!! the (ego)

Note, inductive process, my method, same conclusion, this construct deductive, derivation "the word".ie, Communication predates all religions, hence God not first sound uttered.
Maybe concept always present...

"God", n, superhuman being worshipped as having power over nature and human fortunes, deity, supreme being, Creator or ruler of universe.

"Goddess", n. Female deity in polytheism (esp.,in  Latin mythology,of heaven ,hell, love, wisdom, moon, corn, war, Juno, Prosepine, Venus, Minerva, Diana, Ceres, Bellona); woman one adores. {-ess}

From this I presume by default "God" is a male, as God in the female form is a "goddess".

Gods/Goddesses humble servant Luke.

Male + Female = universe
Black + White = universe
Negative + positive = universe
matter + antimatter = universe
ying + yang + universe
ie........
{-e*(n)} + {+e*(n)}= universe.
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Hi Spook,
   I think I'm understanding you to say,you believe in God because of knowledge .Just go with me here for a minute,your comment was rather hard to get the jest of. But if I'm correct,all I can say is that I believed there was a God before I believed in God.I also believe in heaven and hell. I also believe the Bible is the holy inspired word of God. That even the devil believes and trembles. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I can't see the air.But because I breathe it I know it's there. I can not see God ,I've never heard an audible voice from God,I didn't wittness the death and resurection of Jesus.But I once was lost and going to hell and I did ask Christ to save me and all I can tell you is He changed my life. Now I have the faith that when this life is over I will be in a better place. I haven't seen it but I accept it by my faith.
   I underwent two surgeries.One lasting 10 hours the other 12.I believed the doctors had the knowledge to perform the surgeries.I had faith that God would steady their hands and help the docs as well as comfort me. The doctors were Christians and they knew I was in Gods hands as well as theirs.
   I couldn't make it through the day without faith that God would help me. I've been without faith. Thank God,I may become weak in my faith for one reason or another but I have faith that God will help me through whatever life may bring.
   I in no way am judging anyone without faith.God is our only judge. But faith is as real as knowledge. I only wish my faith were stronger. I've been touched by God because of my faith. I wouldn't be the lowly person I am though if my faith was what it should be.
   I'll hush now. But I know you'll read this. I have faith you'll understand what I'm saying.
   Not meaning to be critical of you Luke ,but could you reply in a language this old country girl can understand.I mean,if I misread your comment,honestly, I'm sorry. But this country girl...well ,I'm not slow but this one was confusing.
   Man....sin
   Woman...sin
   lost....hell
   believe....repent...salvation....faith....securiety
Thanks Luke, Kerrie
  
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There are many paths to God, you have found a valid one. I think?.
Do you have faith in love, do you believe in love OR do you know for a fact it exists because you have seen and felt its Magic.
I feel that your path, has a problem in that it preaches other paths are not valid, it claims sovereign over paths to OUR God, all Humanities God and therefore is a  mildly selfish religion, take Jesus from the equation, it is an obsession, it begun and ended with jesus, why the decoration and ritual, I had a barbecue on sunday, you went to church, we both respect jesus. My path to God can be proven using modern science now (quantum Consciousness/Physics), some find a flower in a florest, others in the fields bathed in sunshine. Sometimes I feel some religions are "fast food" religions, as my path was long and tedious. I accept that God exists, but I do not accept Christians and muslems KILLING each other while claiming to be following Gods word.
How many more Christian soldiers must kill and die before they obey one simple request "thou shall not kill".
Read the bible again as it is very complex and many so called people of faith, ignore much of what it says, and everything it says is good information. its a good read. try a few religions, learn, love, feel, give, but in my humble opinion it is not healthy for this PLANET to get hung up with Jesus.
Some will have to await the return and ask him again, how do we live in "PEACE".  
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I am not hung up with Jesus. He did that for me. He is the ultimate love. I am a born again believer in Christ. I try to be a Christian. The word Christian means Christ like. If you believe of Him and not in Him you won't be asking Him anything on His return. Not my opinion.It is the word of God. I never set out here to judge you Luke. Only to try and lift a fellow human being up that felt she may have lost her faith. If this subject did not include your feelings, why are you so disturbed that some of us think our faith is important to our well being? I do not critisize you or anyone on this forum for the things I find offendsive. It is your opionion. I come back to this forum night after night hoping to hear good news about some of the ones working so hard to better their lives. I came seeking help for my daughter. I find it rather strange that you are the one person who gives his opionion and even if it is strange ,people know you mean well. But the one conversation I have with someone about something I know about,you think I'm out of line.
  I agree, The Bible is a good read. You should try what's in it. It's a good feeling.
  I won't judge you for what you don't believe and I would only ask that you do the same. I don't need religion. I need Jesus Christ. He is not a religion. Some do not feel that way. They will answer for that. But if you ask what I believe I will stand on Gods word and what it says.
  Your right about the killing. I don't think it's right in any way. But I believe there's a lot going on that has nothing to do with Christians or Jews or any other denomination. I won't kill anyone this week I promise.
  I know you can't sense my feelings in a comment Luke but there's no hard feelings here. I can talk all day about how my life changed after I accepted Christ. But I just wanted to say, I  may not agree with things you say , you may not agree with things I say, but I only tried to help someone .Is that what your doing now? Did I condem anyone? Did I say anything offensive to anyone ? I've come here night after night because I found help for myself here. If I was judging anyone, would I of ever came back to a forum where people were honest about themselves and their problems ? I came back because there is true caring going on here.I beleive there's good here. Let's focus on that. Your specialty is knowing about drugs and the problems from them. I only added something one time on a subject I know something about.  
  Perhaps it is time for me to leave this forum . I don't want to be a problem in a place where no one needs a problem. If this is the case, consider it done, and no hard feelings.
    Love,  Kerrie
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If jesus is your saviour that is good, because he was a great Human being??, I applaud his efforts immensely, I have a bigger project and that is to introduce a scientifically based and PROVABLE path to GOD via SCIENCE, to help the athiests to not destroy each other and this Planet and us believers and KNOWERS, my approach in no way belittles jesus or exludes God or Jesus or any existing Religion it only adds sense to their esoteric mystical illogical nature, it may throw some light on some things such as money trails banked through the Vatican church, the popes attidude to contraception and abortion, pedaphile priests, schizo`s claiming to be the lord, Christians behaving like satanists, $3000- Christian cremations and the Profiteering from death, etc ,etc ,etc............................
You Kerrie have done well and mean well and are very nice person, I have not seen any improvement in this planet in the last 2001 years, so I am not sitting back and spreading the word or awaiting return or fearing hell through defiance, I am going to do my best for the most.
The common thread of ALL religions is GOD and that is the BOSS, not his son, or brother or sister or mum or children.
Time for a new approach, sentimentality is futile.
jesus is REAL, but is he going to catch the Nuclear bombs when the **** hits the fan, NO.
Repent before it is too late.
"Quantum Cosmic Consciousness" and it ain`t no religion.
Fire up that Pineal wisdom gland.  
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Hi Kerrie,  I hope you are feeling much better now,,,,wow it has been a week full of surprises....1st big surprise,,,thought I was pregnant..LOL  2nd big surprise.....still may be  LOL  in waiting....the funny thing is that the other day at work I had my bosses 8 week old baby (she just adopted her) with me all day, and through all the feedings, changes etc,  I thought I would like one more,,,when I showed doug the baby he asked me if I wanted another one...I just stared at him  LOL he then reminded me that we at one time had talked about having at least 4    LOL  I must have been using  LOL  well to my surprise, it may be coming to be real....we shall see soon...a baby truly is a miracle but one at this time in my life it would truly be God's miracle, a way of telling me I am still worthy I suppose,, as you know and Wizard know's how I tend to beat myself up alot...if I am pregnant and it is a girl  her name is already Miracle...if I am not pregnant then I will thank God for at least the happy thought no matter how brief, see I am learning something from you my dear friend..well last weekend I did gardening and this weekend I'll do more but I will set aside the time to e-mail you...have a great day hon        love cindi
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I LOVE YOU MY PRECIOUS!!!!!!!!!!
In your Divine Lap of Consciousness...
Your Twinkle ***,
Ginette

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Oh no, here we go again???
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I ABSOLUTELY LOVE YOU MY SWEET NECTARE OF THE GODS!!!!!!!!!!
In our Divine Lap of Consciousness...
Your secret weapon***? of love
Luke


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"Why yes indeed, here we go again, and what away to go"
Ginette,
Spook's Tantric Love Goddess
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My goodness you certainly are offensive this evening... Oh well I tried..  You probably are a bit fearful of the truth..
Anyways, try to dispell the negativity, and find peace..
Ginette
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Get a Life annie or is that angelica, how about I post your real name, you want fun and games tempt me
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Hi Angelica,,,,Hey, you wont' be bashed...not by me anyway...everyone is entitled to their own opinion...and you my dear have avery colorful way of expressing yours  LOL  go and have a great weekend....And I will try to do the same...Mother's day like JB said is going to be very difficult but...I have my family that has something very special planned for me..doug always takes the kids shopping etc for gifts for me and then they (all 3 of them) pamper me all day  LOL  yo have a Wonderful Mother's day and oh  Yeah    thank you so much for the card  it really touched me    you are a true friend....Love  cin
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Luke...

I hope you are aware that if you post anyone's real name , as you just suggested to Anjelica above, or anyone's address or personal information without their consent that you are violating not only the unspoken terms of common civility but also the terms of agreement of this forum. You have just implied in a post that you could possibly do that. I believe that your isp is traceable and you can be barred from this forum if you were to choose to do something like that. I also believe that you would not be able to sign in with other names. About a year ago 2 posters were removed with far less offensive propositions. Yes, you could use a different isp, different pc and so on... it's all possible... but you would have to not violate again. I consider your comment to be noteworthy in regards to the trust that people would place in you ... you are free to disagree with anyone but not to do what you suggested.

Best wishes Luke, Maria Seraphina
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I posted here and listened here for a year and it has helped me tremendously. I am personally grateful for the support of so many that I now stay in touch with via e-mail and also those couneless others who posted on the board and will never know who they are. I decided to not post any longer and also let that be known. I am about the business of finding some healing in different ways now. I do stop in and read. The comment by Spook above to Anjelica is one of the main reasons I left this board... TRUST... a vital component in relationships even in this medium... it has dissipated here and this is why the thread entitled "ANYONE" caused me to say what I did and ultimately apologize. Again there is a violation of TRUST as evidenced above. I hope those of you who honor that we may not agree or like the personalities that come through here, are still trustworthy and honorable people ... to the degree that they express themselves here. I do hope that you will use your voice and uphold what is right and decent. Love, Maria Seraphina
( Brighty)
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Well, well, well!!!! That's what I AM today!  I was just looking at the title of this string.....hmmmmmmmm........Well here goes...... I love ALL of you.......it's great to be alive!!!! and FEELING emotions again.........Day 14 off of the "Dragon" and the Wizard is FEELING his ole "Magick" again!   Emotions.....funny thing emotions....LOTS of them stirring up here on this site.....That's why God led me here I think! To SEE the emotions that I have been opiating away from....Good ones....Bad ones.....Lusty ones...I HAVE them ALL again! and it's great!  Cindi, that was some VERY interesting reading you pointed me to..I thank you for that....Spook, Your Usual wisdom has enlightened me to no end! Such thoughts of the magnitude that you expound get the mind juices flowing whether I aggree or not..Great job!  For that I Thank YOU!.....Ginnette, I've never had the pleasure of exchanging thoughts, but to you I say Power & Magick 2U as I do ALL MY FRIENDS.....Thomas, You were my first contact here and a Life saver to me....Through you I met EVERYONE else.....and you all KNOW who you are...To you Thomas my Heartfelt Gratitude.....Friends...What a Great CONCEPT! Friends...isn't that what WE ALL are? At least here in cyber junkie land? LOL  WOW!!!!! My fingers ,I think, are being driven by Divine forces...Must be!!!! I'm not this smart! Or am I? Help with LOVED ones...I think that was the title this string...well, once again, my LOVED ones, Thank You for ALL being there when I needed you in my time of dispair and loneliness :-) I'm sure as time goes on the LIGHT will get brighter!  I apologize for rambling but being enveloped in the Light as I am today, I felt compelled to share this GREAT THING with ALL my FRIENDS meaning ALL of you....For this Mother's day I wish each and every one of you a Blessed weekend...You especially Cindi...you know what I mean......and finally 2 U Mother Earth,Happy Mothers Day....Wonders of you never cease. As I was finishing this post Mother Earth  just sent a fledgling  Blue Jay into my office. What a lesson for me to see it trapped as I have felt in the past. For all of you out there,addicts,recovering or not and Family members trying to help, just know that I caught the  bird unharmed and carried him outside blowing my Wizard prayers for all of us onto him, I released him back to Mother Earth...How ironic on Mothers Day weekend to witness his rebirth to life and to experience my rebirth to life!
God Bless us All!,
Power & Magick 2 U All,
Love,
Wizard
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My above post is addressed to everyone but the post header didn't say so. I wanted to make that clear.
Power & Magick 2 U all,
Peace & Light 2 U ALL,
Love,
Wizard

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Hi there,  I'm glad you enjoyed the "article" and found it to be interesting?  to say the least..you sound so ver happy and free...I love that feeling....you have no idea how that makes me feel to know that someone out there is hapy and living life to the fullest....My friend,,,we have shared some very interesting and enlightening e-mails and I have seen you evolve in just a very short time...and this evolution I hope is contagious...thank you for the Mother's day wish...I know this will be a very difficult one at that but with friends like you, and the others that know who they are,,,I know where I can go when i need to.....have a great weekend and keep on keepin on  love cin
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Thank-you for being open minded and speaking with Love and acceptance.  You are truly a nonjudgemental person and a credit to your religion, humanity and Our God...  You are so positive and refreshing, I thank you again for your strength and integrity...

I will carry your thoughts with me,
Ginette :)
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Ginette, you honor me with your response to my post. Thank you for entering my circle! I do apologize as I just notice that I misspelled your name in the above post. Your words to me are kind and kindness is what motivates my heart :-) I trully hope that someday it will motivate everyone on this planet..Such a dream that is. I believe that it has been the dream of so many GREAT people. Ghandi, Jesus, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King,
Joan Baez the list goes on and on.....But it's never enough it seems. It all starts in our hearts and can only spread from there. I hope you have a wonderful weekend and look to the sky for my Blue Jay as I think he's on his way spreading HOPE, LOVE and Peace.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light,
Love,
Wizard
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As always, you have once again set an example for this entire forum...to express your opinion in a most tactfull and eloquent way....no need to threaten, humiliate or degrade other people...and for this my friend, I commend you...Sometimes when I become upset or frustrated with something I have a way of voicing my opinion that is in nay even close to how you word things...I at times, don't think before I speak or "type" in this case  LOL Angellica is a very candid person and like you, not afraid to speak her mind....I understand where she is coming from re: using this forum in the way it was meant to be utilized...there are times that we,  all of us use it to joke around etc..you know what I mean but... to go as far to threaten to expose someones identity..and in another post she had been referred to as offensive...I don't think her behavior was what was offensive  she was merely expressing her opinion on something  is that not what this forum is about?  Hoep you Maria, have a great Mother's day.....talk to you soon      Love cin
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Cin......Keep On Keeping On is EXACTLY what I intend to do ;-*
Remember what I said about the weekend. I know it is going to be hard because of your loss. But it can also be unforgettable because of YOUR children and husband. Make it so. You told me awhile back to keep my focus and strength. To this I say to you,
you also do the same. Remember we reap what we sew. And if I remember what you told me about your beloved mother, what she sewed in you, you shall reap from your children! It's in your grasp, just reach out for it. If times get tough, then also know that we are here to help pick up some of the pieces. Remember she's out there with my father smiling down upon us. Even though for the last few years I may not of given him much to smile about :-) LOL, he's smiling now. I know this in my heart.......
Peace be with you my dear friend,
Power & Magick 2 U  (extra Wizard dose this weekend),
Love,
Wizard
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I also wish you a VERY HAPPY MOTHERS DAY! I appreciate your candor and honesty. Each person who has posted since I came here has brought something of humanity back into my life. As I said before, good, bad or indifferant. There was SOMETHING of a lesson for me. For this I am forever grateful.  Trust is a very fragile thing now in our troubled times.  I don't give very freely, but I depended on it HERE. I hope for our sakes and the sake of future visitors that it can and will be sanctified back if in fact it was lost. I have kept myself distant to some of the posts, for they had no benifit for me or humanity except to learn from maybe. Even though, we may not have posted to one another, I have learned very much from your writings to others.
I hope to have the opportunity to continue to learn from you. I believe in speaking ones mind with what is in ones heart at any given moment. I do not think you have ever veered away from doing just that. Right, wrong or indifferant you carry on with class and integrity. It's a pleasure to wish you good tidings for this holiday and forever.
Peace & Light upon U,
Power & Magick 2 U,
Love Always,
Wizard
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Wiz   thank you for the beautiful words of strength and encouragement...tomorrow I plan on taking out a card and some flowers to the cemetary..you my friend are truly a kind and compassionate human being...and I wish you nothing but luck, happiness and God's speed....and your post to my friend Brighty  My Gosh, that was so very well said...and you are so right in summing her up..she too along with Angelica is another one of God's best work.....Love all of you                  cin
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The truth.
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WAY TRUTH, my brother. WAY TRUTH.
Spook you too shall be in my thoughts as in my heart as an unseen but not unheard FRIEND! Have much Peace this weekend, and do me a favor, as I understand it you are down under. Look to the Heavens for brother. I understand you have a differant view from your home. Send me your vision so I too can see what you see! So much Magick in the air....It's crackeling! Your story awhile back about the aboriginal little girl brought hours of tears to my eyes in sorrow. So TRUE was the story..........again I say look to the unblemished Heavens for me tonight as I will for you!
Peace & Light 2 U,
Power & Magick 2U,
Love from your friend,
Wizard
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My final post for tonight because I'm buzzing with natural energy.
I've carried this in my wallet for years and thought I'd share it with any of you who are SEEKERS OF KNOWLEDGE.
It's called:     MESSENGER OF WISDOM

Once appeared a wise man, though a stranger
           in my dreams
he came upon a chariot riding down the
           sun-lit beams
pulled by celestial horses who grazed
           the milky way.
He held the reins of wisdom, in my sight he'll
           always stay
his words they echoed loud across the
           vastness of the sky
only once, would he share my world,
           this his passing by
he took me in his chariot and talked
           of many things
showed me worlds beyond my dreams that
           would astonish even kings
he said my son these dreams you see are
           all within your grasp
if you continue searching and take the
           time to ask.

Walter Rinder

Goodnight and Bless us all,
Power & Magick 2 U,
Wizard
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Thanks a lot for all of this, It is winter here in Australia and it is cold and raining and windy as I type this, I can still see `the` light though, but it is not the season for anything special,(like dark skys, full moons, and stars) Its more of a log fire type of feeling around here, lately the weather has gone off, so to speak, a couple of us did send some magic energy your way just very recently, we discussed your special character and how we share similar philosophies and other esoteric type of wave lengths, so I relate to your current enthusiasm (mystic energy).
Luke
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Well recieved brother! We have eternity to complete the plan. I hope all is well for you and your own. Keep searching, the chariot is still out there.
Power& Magick 2U,
God bless us in our journies,
Wizard
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Just felt like adding something here. . .have been very busy lately and just catching up on threads, so forgive me if I seem a bit behind.  As usual, I preface this only by saying that I most certainly do not claim to have found The Right Way(TM) concerning anything in life. . .just certain things that have been useful to me which I'd like to share.

Although I am the last person to push any program (AA, NA, whatever) down anyone's throat, occasionally something I hear at meetings proves just too true to be left unrepeated.  One thing which I heard early on and still rings very true to me is this:  when we react to other people in a negative way, when provoked, we give them power over us.

I'm a big hockey fan, so let me give you this analogy -- some players in the NHL are known as "agitators".  Their primary purpose is to go out on the ice and stir up the opposition (glove to the face, elbow to the head, whatever), in hopes of goading their opponent to take a shot back at them.  In 90% of the cases, when they do their job well, the result is this -- the agitator goes unpenalized while the provoked player who strikes back is sent to the penalty box.

This may on the surface seem unfair, but let's look at it more closely.  The aim of this method of officiating is to cut down on violence in general in the sport and improve the flow of the game.  If it worked 100% of the time (which, of course, it doesn't), the job of the agitator would become obsolete.  If no one retaliated to their cheap shots, there not only would be no reason to deliver them but eventually the referees would catch the agitators in mid-suckerpunch (or whatever) and send them off, thus completely negating their purpose.  Agitators are rarely skill players, and it is unlikely they would keep their jobs were they to become ineffective at taunting the opposition into doing something stupid.

So what's my point?  Here, as in many other discussion boards and forums I have seen/been a part of over the years, people will quite naturally take offense to the comments of others.  For the record, this is one of the better-behaved forums I have seen overall.  But people still clash.

I suppose all I am saying is this:  if someone irritates you, it is much better in the long run to *completely ignore the person*.  Don't retaliate.  There are two possibilities here -- either the person meant to annoy you, in which case they will gleefully strike back (causing some long, repetetive, boring threads which ultimately take the focus off the main reason we are here, which is hopefully recovery), or their "elbow to the head" was an honest accident, which, should you wind up and flatten them in return, will almost certainly catch the unknowing offender off-guard and cause *them* to retaliate to *you*, with the same (or very similar) results of unproductive verbal pushing and shoving which benefits no one.

I name no names and am speaking to everyone, most of all myself.  It is my first impulse to strike back at anyone who irritates me, whether or not it was intentional.  This very nearly (and could still, if I am not vigilant) cost me my marriage.  This is something which I, personally, can no longer afford to do, and urge everyone I meet to strive for.

Thanks to everyone for their attention.  I certainly don't mean to "soap-box" here, and I apologize if my views are seen as inappropriate or unnecessary.  As always, just trying to help any way I can.

Peace,
Pelle
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You are a very insightful person and you offer excellent advice..you are very much like me as far as wanting to strike back in defense...I think that we all are pretty good at taking everyone eles's inventory but God forbid someone should take ours...your advice is always appreciated and may I say that I will take it and keep in in my mind...thank you again   :)  cin
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Your response to  everyone was very inlightening! I really like the one you heard at a meeting about giving someone else the upper hand. If you don't mind I would like to use this in other areas of my life. Happy Mothers Day to all you moms out there.  This is my First Mothers Day without my ex, and the 4  after my Mother died, she died  June 4th 1997 of brain, lung  and breast cancer.  It was  just my 2 boys and me. It's a beautiful day here  in Virginia, I took them to brunch,  and we  did yard work(which is almost 40,000 square ft) I had to do it by myself, take care of this big house, 3 dogs(1 his 145lb puppy) and everything that goes along with it. I've  been really resentful having to do this for so long, pretty much since his addiction got so bad. Financially I don't know how I've been paying out over $3000 a month alone, since  he doesn't seem to care or want to help us. But you know, it's true, "God never gives you more, than you can handle". And you know it's really true.  We all come here for different reasons, and we all get something out of reaching out to others....and no  matter how bad things can be, when you just feel like giving up, and you feel you want to DIE>Well LOOK, we're ALL still here, we are still breathing, we are still apart of this physical universe, and we are all still wanting to get better and improve our lives. So there is hope, there is love, and there is a light at the end  of the tunnel.  God Bless all of you, everyone here has a special place in my heart. And for all you men with parteners, give them a big hug and kiss, and wish them a Happy Mothers Day, even if they aren't one. Show  them you love them............love Susan Lea
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even though I have not had the opportunity to correspond with you I have been reading everyone of your posts...whenever I decide to respond to you someone else jumps on and says what I wanted to say  LOL..but after reading your post just now I have to at least say that I admire  and respect you a great deal...you are a lady of sheer courage and strength..you have so much to deal with and by God you are doing it..Life does go on...this is something I have to learn   Life goes on...this was the first mother's day with out my mom  she died this past Christmas morning...to be honest,,,this past 5 months I have had to learn to grow up real fast and learn to live without my mom  she was always there for me..anyway,,,please hang in there and never give up...God is on your side,,,,,,happy Mohter's day      :)      cin
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Thank you Cindi, Happy Mothers Day to you to. It's 10:30pm here and I just got my boys to sleep, they are 10& 11. I don't know how old you are, I'm 43,  but I have learned that no matter how old you are, you will always miss your mother.  I'm sorry to here about your mother.  It's very painful,  especially on Holidays. My father died in 1988, just 1 year before my  son was born, he also died of lung and brain cancer, I named my son after him. Losing him was painful, and I  thought I would be better prepared for my mom's death, but......I  went to my parents grave today. My best friend since high school(who is also Cindy)  went with me. I have always gone, at least 2  a month, but today was the hardest it's ever been for me. I sat in the middle of Arlington Cemetary, and the last 4 years swept over me. I finally gave into my grief. I don't think I ever really cried, not like today.   Today I grieved for all the losses in my life. As I talked with my mom,  I saw my life and how she would have been so sad and unhappy  with my choices. She wanted so much more for me. She would beg me to never get involved with an alcoholic. My dad was one, and always so emotionally unavailable, distant and many times both verbally and mentally, including physically abusive to  her. I used  to wonder  what made her stay? Well as you know my ex was not an alcoholic but everything else. He was exactly  like my father, I have realized that through  counseling, I had fallen for this man, so I could try and change things, fix things, to make it right as my mother couldn't. And I stayed just like my mom did. We all look for things that are familiar, even the unhealthy  things.  My mom was a terrific woman, she came to this country from Germany during the 50's. It was so difficult for her, 3 small children, no money, she couldn't speak English, and my father somewhere in Korea, drinking and running around. Don't get me  wrong, I loved my father. It's taken the last 2 years for me to realize just how much I did love my mother. I always thought she was critizing  me, like I never did anything right, but I know now, she just didn't want me to make the same mistakes. But I did.  I loved this man for the past 5 1/2 years, as if I had loved him a lifetime.  To look at him, he  was nothing special, part asian, part black. Long hair, kinda scary looking. He has 4 kids he pays for, so he never had money, I even had to give him a car. He was so kind when I met him, I  just didn't know the extent or course his addictions would take. I stayed the last 2 years, no kissing, no  sex, no I Love You's. Just you F-ing *****, you  ugly old hag. I am no  where near ugly.  My self esteem did not exsist.  I am finally letting go, thank God for his grace, because I really thought there was no way out. I thought I would have a nervous breakdown when HE left. My youngest  came to me as I was crying 8 weeks ago, and calmly said (Mommie now  that he's gone, can we have you back) I  kid you not, I didn't notice 2 years had gone by, and  I had never been there for MY Kids. I thought I was the  worst mother in the world, to become so consumed and so obesessive about him and his addiction. So you see today I cried about the loss of my  mom, but most of all I cried that I had made my kids suffer an enormous loss. I prayed for my mom, and my kids to forgive me. And I made a vow this would never happen again. You  say you have respect for me, well believe me I haven't earned it yet, I'm just starting to respect myself again. I now consume myself with my kids, I've been to selfish in the past, and I have great kids, they have always protected me. I was very lucky with my  mom, she never had any pain, she eventually didn't know who we were, she was always in the garden in her mind, with her flowers and her angels. She did not suffer one bit. When she died she was so peaceful and at peace, and you can never ask for more than that. A  couple months before she died,we were sitting on her porch in Florida. She says to me, (Susan, my mother is here with me, you know she's my Guardian Angel) I said to my mom(just humoring her, because her mind was pretty far gone. (mom where is she now?  My mother says(oh she is always here, right beside me, she  watches and takes care of me, she never lets anything bad happen to me, just like I will when I die) Well Cindi, today I felt my mother  there,  not like I normally do.  I felt her all around me, and I knew than, no matter what I'd done, and no matter what I do in the future, she is always there watching, always protecting me.  She is my Guardian Angel....Just like you're mom, Cindi your mom is right here, right now, observing and keeping you safe, she will guide you and any decissions you make.  You will see, but pay attention.....how many times you will escape harm, and how many times something told you to  be careful. She will help you remember, you will never be the same....And now you have your own Guardian Angel...just remember before you make a choice about something, ask yourself what would my mom think or how would she feel about it......It will make your choices so, so much easier.  I'm glad we are friends now.  You  have added a new warmth and meaning to my life......Love Susan Lea
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I hope you take this the right way because I respect you a lot;
Extremely intelligent and compassionate comment, now I balance it by saying something really! dumb.

Now you told them the rules how we going to win???

"the enraged rationalist, will pursue all their lives the battle of the irrational"
                    Salvadore Dali

"the enraged irrationalist, will carry on like a complete dill and be quite entertaining"
                    Luke Edward
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We are close in age,  I am 40 and my kids a boy 3 and a girl 7...
do not beat yourself up,,,We all make mistakes,we are human,,,I have read mostly all the posts you have written and I do admire your strength..all we can do in times like this is move forward...and yes I do respect you...for going on with your life and seeing where your mistakes were....in order to gain respect we must earn respect and for that NOT to happen is when we go and keeping repeating our same old obsessive behaviors...the addicts are not the only ones that are sick sometimes but the people that love addicts came become sick as well...start to learn to loce yourself hon because if you don't you cannot begin to love anyone in the true sense....you are the most important person without you being ok how will your boys be ok?  so....hold your head up high, go on and stop being so hard on yourself.....love cin
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Sorry, Spook. . .just couln't help it.  As a "recovering master agitator" myself, it just kinda happened.

Peace,
Pelle  (BTW, thank you, and I certainly will take this in the spirit in which it was intended)  :)
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Also. . .I quite liked your set of quotes.  Rationalism is often overrated.

Peace,
Pelle
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You hit the nail on the head with your comment on ,"the addict isn't the only one who is sick". You could have been talking about me.  Myself....yes I became obsessed and addicted to him, and strange as it is, very textbook..I am an adult child of an Alcoholic parent....It's very real and very scarey. I am finding out, through theraphy, I have continued this relationship with my ex, because he was exactly like my Father. We as adults continue to try and change, to fix, to recreate what was familiar to us in childhood.  It could be very sick and insane, but unless we become aware of it....it will continue to go on and on.  I work every day at changing myself, my bad habits, my insane way of thinking and relating. And my attitudes. Right now I'm just taking the time to find out who I am, without a partner, what I want, what I need. And just loving and being there for my children..I didn't have an identity without him, I was so obsessed with him I had lost myself.. But I will find myself again, and I will be a better person, wife  and mother because of what I let happen to me. Thank you for your kind words and support.  Compulsion is such a nice thing to let go of.  Let Go and Let God........Goodnight.....Love Susan Lea
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You are absolutely correct in what you say.  Was "that" comment invisible or what?  I noticed it, and so did you.  HELLOOOOOO
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I am behind you 110%.  You are a breath of fresh air.  Blessings are definately coming YOUR way.
Love ya sister,

Angelica*annie
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Re: Invisible

That which is clearly viewed no longer exists.

That = he/she , as well as anything else

Love, Maria Seraphina
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Dear Light Bearers,

Thank you for your kind comments which I just found in The Neverending Thread. I would reply in the same to each of you but to do so would only gild the lily. You know who you are and the truth is in your hearts.

RE: Removal of this thread. Why would anyone remove the main attraction ? The web master must find this very entertaining. I don't think there is much else that is entertaining about addiction.

Those who seem to be longest on memory are those who are neediest in terms of feeling worthy of love... they cannot close the chapter and continue to beg, finding every possible way to gain approval and attract limelight. It's a hallmark of addiction and not everyone seems to find healing from it.

Hard ,for me especially, but worth the effort is to choose peace.

( One way to begin practicing this is to ignore the assholes. It's an eartly exercise and does not require any cosmic consciouness to do it. )

Love, Maria Seraphina
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You are not missing a beat in your understanding and perceptions!!! ( In case you were having a few self doubts:-)) I was able to recognize myself at least :-)) It's evident those who wish to control cannot do it with you.  

Your take on issues is clearly a compassionate treatise... one that is of humility and recovery... a fine example for those who are getting it and worth looking at more closely  for those who are not.

I love your posts !!! Those of us who are not addicts are trying to recover also... Lea & Kerri have mentioned this so appropriately ( both here and in different threads)... thank you for always keeping the "recovery chord" alive here for us.

Love, Maria Seraphina

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I have just read many of your posts which I missed while I was gone and was distressed to hear of your seizure, but also gratified that you have found an employer who values your incredible and obvious talents, and that you have a wife who has supported you in your illness and recovery... I think you are called to a ministry Thomas...healing is a life time endeavor and you share it so naturally & selflessly. Thank you for your comment about the unraveling of psyche.... I needed some no nonsense wisdom... seems fitting that it came from you !!! Pssssssssssssst... I love you too :-))

Maria Seraphina
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Most unabashadely, I miss you most of all.

Love, Maria Seraphina
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The comments in this thread to Cindi, Anjelica, Pelle1985, Thomas and JB were intended to be posted in the thread below called "Anyone".... sorry about that... my eyes are having difficulty with all the scrolling !! Hope you will post your respones there instead of here... well... whatever :-))

Love, Maria Seraphina
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Re: your 5/10 post, I hope you never leave.  Did you know that you have a fellow believer/sister here???  I remember when you first started posting.....I was one of the first to converse w/ you, and we are also chronic painers......LOL  Much in common.

We all aggree to disaggree, and as long as our comments are to help, and not to hurt....there is nothing wrong.  Our beliefs is what makes us all unique, and different......we all respect that, I would hope.  So, don't even think about leaving.  I share my beliefs w/ people from time to time, and if we disaggree......we find something else to discuss....LOL

I don't think anyone should refute what you have to say, esp. if it was not directed toward them.  Unless it's just good old fashion reciprocation of views/beliefs.....then that should be fine. I believe this is healthy......
Hope you keep coming back!
Love,
Angelica
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I was reading your comments about your feelings, and i feel like i can really relate to many things that you two feel.
I grew up in a disfunctional family, and have continued my adult life in many of the same ways that i learned to know as a child.
My children are 1, 5 and 8, and i really appreciate hearing the feelings of addiction as it relates to you as mothers.
Thank you, and i hope i didn't intrude in any way.
I just wanted to thank you both for making me feel 'not so alone'!
Good luck to you both, you are very special women!
Lv Jenny
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Dear Angelica,Cindi,Wizard,Dianne,Leah,Brighty,and everyone ,
   I tried to recall each name because each one of you have made an impact in my life in one way or another. This week some of you have made the extra effort to write to a woman that had decided to stay off the threads. Because of your words of encouragement I have decided I do need to stay. I need your help more than you can know at times.If you guys can stay around after all you've been through, I can do it too.
    Thank you Angelica and Cindi.You probley don't know how much you've helped me.To all of you that have kept me in your prayers I thank you. I am going to need them a lot in the days ahead. I'm going through a lot of testing now and it really gets to me. Some of you may remember I have bad health and chronic pain. Angelica ,I do remember you responding when I first came here.I was taken back by all you've been through and I know your pain is a daily struggle. I appreciated you trying to help me with all your going through. Cindi,I appreciate so much your honesty with me about you and your mom. I know you understand the hard time I have saying no to my daughter but you are helping me do just that. I can find the strength through God and friends like all of you. We can help one another.That's why I came here night after night and why I keep coming back. I guess that's why I let the thing with someone else get to me so bad. But I'll try not to let that happen again.
  Please remember me this week and next week in your prayers. My doctors are all out of town and it's difficult for me to go on trips like this even though their anywhere from 30 min. to 2 hours away.
  My daughter was so out of it yesterday her husband couldn't get her awake to open the door.She says she hadn't taken too much med but I know better.If any of you have tried the herbal thing when you were getting off the drugs ,would you tell me how and what you used? I'd like to offer her this option to see if she'll try it.
  Wizard, I want to tell you how PROUD I am of you for getting off the drugs. Pat yourself on the back. You all deserve it!!!!!!
  I will close now.Sorry I write so much but you are my only way of letting it out sometimes.
   God Bless and Thank You All,
            Kerrie
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So glad you decided to stay !! I have been around here since April 2000 and never have stayed on a forum too long... once for maybe 5 months and that was eons ago. This forum is different.... informative and caring... people who are suffering, have suffered and those in recovery offering hope and concrete advice.. helping others detox... telling them what to expect... been there done that.. and never with arrogance...always with tolerance and compassion. I hope you realize that my daughter too is an addict... she is 22 now and clean 14 months... a milestone after 3 nightmarish years which included institutions and jail... and nearly death numerous times... so if I have to say it over and over for newcomers.. thre is HOPE and HEALING. I have followed here Thomas and his detox from a 30 year opiate addiction.... that is awesome and inspiring... and there is more revealed here. I have heard it before and now know for sure.. addicts in recovery are the light bearers of the world. It bears out over and over again, here on the board and in our personal lives. Keep reading and praying and taking the right actions.... things will change ... it takes time.. it's a process. I wish you health and peace.

Love, Brighty
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I too am so glad you decided to stay...we all are able to help to help each other...and you are a valuable asset to his forum...and I do know from what you have told me that you benefit from coming here also...why stop a good thing? we are all in this together...I have to go and pamper myself now,,LOL   gotta get my nails done  LOL my one luxury   besides my foot messager I got from Mother's day  LOL  ohhh  Lala talk about a treat..ain't it funny how our priorites change as we get older  LOL  it used to be I would die for a little red sports car but now a foot message and a back message is like heaven  LOL my foot messager even has tiny bubbles and little rolly thingies on the bottom and heat   now, throw in George clooney and Robbie Thomas  (angelica and Brighty can relate to each) and man   we are ready to roll baby..LOL   so  after my nails i will come home and hop on and see if we can catch up,,,,,hang in there my friend  and like always  if you need me you know where I am.....HEY ANGELICA... thanks for the important message e-mail   scary huh?  I will catch up to you alos later  Love all of you guys
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Wow! Thanks for the kudos :-) People like you and all my friends here are the ones that desrve the pat on the backs.( you ALL know who you are) I couldn't have done it without ya! The best therapy for me is coming back here daily and keeping IN TOUCH. I havent been in touch for many years.....Now i cant's touch enough! LOL
power & Magick 2 U,
God Bless us all,
luv,
Wiz
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Cin, Did you have to mention robbie....LOL  My speakers are blown in my car.  I have to get them fixed, and soon.  I miss listening to the radio, it makes the drive much better. LOL
Wiz: you are so full of life, and what an inspiration you are!  You are definately a nice addition to this board.  You are very supportive.
Love YALL,
Angelica
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Hi Brighty,
  I wanted to ask you about your daughter. Mine is 22 also. She'll be 23 in June.
  She is addicted to Hydrocodones and Zanex. I'm sure I didn't spell that right. But she also takes percocet and midrin and fiorinol. I know I'm not spelling right but just sound them out.I worry because she takes so much at a time. I've given her all the warnings I have been given from my friends here.
   How did your daughter decide to get clean. My daughter says she wants to go to rehab but that it's embarrassing to admit you have a problem and everyone find out. She knows all the family knows she's hooked. I tell her they love her and they will be proud of her for getting help.
   I worry about my grandchildren. I take care of the 4 year old a lot. But I'm not physicaly able to take care of the baby. He weighs about 17 pounds and I don't have much strength in my arms because of surgery to remove a large cyst off my spinalcord on my  cervical spine area. But when she was here the other day she was very tired. I asked her had she took too many pills and she swore she hadn't. Then her husband called and said she didn't pick him up from work and when he got home she was so out of it she couldn't hear him banging on the door. I had the 4 year old but the baby was with her. I was so upset that I hadn't kept him too. But I can't watch her every second.
  If you have any ideas I would love to hear them. I'll keep you in my prayers.
  Now to all my friends ,thanks again for being there. I'll write you more later. I'm tired after going to hospital today for scope. Love to all and God Bless.
        Kerrie
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It's called something like "Barretts order" "Butler" "Barnet" something like that. I'll find out the name, my brother in law is a circut court judge, 6th district. If you have to, if you really feel she's a danger to herself, or your grandchildren, you can have her put into a 28 day program. State will pay for it, and if she's working, they have to allow her time off, vacation and sick leave can be used, if none without pay and she can't lose her job. They can not ask where she is, where she's going, and for what. She can tell them to stick it! Let me know......Love Susan
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I cannot recall the circumstances from when you first posted not too long ago... if at all possible your married daughter and her children belong together with the husband and daddy of these kids... you are a saint and I'm afraid, soon to be a martyr... I have a couple of years on you and have not had to deal with the serious health problems you have... you need to take care of yourself.. .living with this addiction is like living under Mt. Vesuvius.... it's emotionally volatile, mentally taxing, and your health may not withstand too much more of this. Physically, you really ought not be handling child care under any circumstances... do you have a plan, Kerrie ??  I know one thing... you will not be able to do much about her addiction... she has to do it... if you make it tough on her perhaps she'll handle it. My story is not identical... my daugher started with heroin at 18... she already had, unknown to me, a xanax addiction from rx for her panic and anxiety disorder... this helped spiral her into getting used to getting drugs from other places than the doctors.. and she was apparently snowballing a few of them... it was a 3 year nightmare... she did numerous detox and rehab facitities, got in trouble with the law, went to jail, got out and was still using in her pre-trial intervention program... had been trying to commit suicide.. 7 attempts in 3 years.. yes, mental hospitals too, and finally the judge heard she didn't show up in court because she was on life support... she (the judge) listened to an impassioned plea in open court from her dad and I to please revoke her bail and lock her up because we did not know how else to keep her alive.. she went to jail after a long hospital stay and a mental ward to stabilize her.. she was then mandated to a long term treatment in a primarily mental health treatment program.. after 5 months she "snapped to" so to speak and chose to begin her healing.. She came home last Christmas and is on house arrest for 2 years.. monitor on her ankle... will be followed by probation for another 2 years... she's active in recovery but there have been a few bumps with the behaviors and romanticizing the drug... all part of the journey I'm told.. she did 5 days out patient from Dec. to March.. 3 days thru April and now is down to one day a week and must do for no less than one year.. this is important.. to continue to work on the underlying issues, and staying with a recovery program... it's been very hard, Kerrie.

Your daughter may be comforted to know that at her first rehab she met the high school foot ball coach.. they promised to not tell anyone they saw eachother there. There is a sacredness to the confidentiality in treatment programs ... I have seen the inside of nearly every treatment center from Philadelphia to Florida... she did 9 of them !!! There is nothing to be embarassed over... there are doctors and nurses in treatment as well as people of all races and ages.. all career backgrounds... we met one 73 year old lady who had been widowed 8 months before... she finally decided to quit drinking after reflecting the impact it had on her family for so many years.. that takes courage. I hope your daughter will not deprive herself of at least giving it a try. I will send you healing prayers.

Love, Brighty

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Hi Brighty,
    I appreciate you answering back. I need all the help I can get with her.
    My daughter started out taking the pills for migrains.Then she liked the high and quickly started to misuse them.She is doing marajuana ,xanex,percocet,and afew others I can't spell. But you get the picture. The thing is, she can convince the doctors to give her more and increase the strength.She just went to the doctor last week. A girl that knew her had called the doctor and reported her and she convinced him the girl was lying.He increased her meds and the strength. I told her she had better use them right because she would not be geting anymore from me. I always hide them when I know she's coming over.I don't ever see her except when she wants something though.
  She was in jail in May of last year for having drugs without a prescription when they were stopped in Georgia for a broke windshield. The cops could tell they were messed up and searched their car and each person. She had 10 valuim on her and 2 xanex.Her brother-in-law had pot in his suitcase. So they were arrested. She spent a week in jail. She went to court in December and they gave her 3 years probation and an 1800.00 fine. They are suppose to transfer her probation to Tennessee.So far it hasn't been transfered. But she is still doing the pot too. If they do a random drug test on her she will go to jail.She doesn't think they'll do anything.I've tried to tell her they'll send her to Georgia to serve out her probation but she doesn't believe me. I've put it in Gods hands. I can't make her listen.
  She too has tried to kill herself. She ran her truck into a tree when she was 5 months pregnant.She has sliced her arms up with a razor. She put her hand through a fish tank when she was mad at her husband. I fear for her life. But I have worried until I am sick. I can't turn it over to God and then take it back. So pray I don't fall back into trying to fix it myself. I know it's out of my power. Thanks to everyone here, I'm trying to be there for her without helping her problem by giving her my pills.I am not able to bail her out of jail if it comes to that. I know it will come to that yet. I'd rather it be that than her life.
  Keep me in your prayers friends.
    Kerrie
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Your story reaches the depths of my soul. I will pray for your family... and those innocent babies. As you said you can't make her change... nobody on this earth can make an addict change except themselves... often it simply has to be enough suffering... sometimes this is jail. I NEVER EVER believe people on drugs belong in jail.. it is not treatment, not by any standards. But if the down time gets a person to decide to make changes then to some degree it may be the catalyst for change... then it was worthwhile. I am convinced that the xanax, not the opites, is the bigger problem in terms of her irrational and destructive behavior.... it's one of the worst drugs out there.. it's binds very quickly and very tightly to receptors in the brain... it is also a powerful amnesiac and causes varying degrees of psychosis. This is not a drug that a person can detox from at home... it is a very dangerous withdrawl (withdrawal) and can cause seizures and death. I hope you talk to Thomas about some of the effects... she MUST go to detox facility to be tapered correctly... the oxy's are bad enough on their own but with xanax it's like gasoline and matches... I'm afraid.. it gives me chills because I remember how totally irrational my daughter was on that stuff...if she does not come to her senses I am afraid she will end up in the jail again... but honesly, having been there... it was so horribly painful... it was the only place she was slowed down to become abstinent and finally got her brain to work again... sad huh ??? You have many many prayers.

Love, Brighty

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Thanks  for your reply. I was caught by what you asid about the xanex.My daughter has been forgetting a lot of things and remembering things that never happened.
  She would tell me one thing and swear she never said it and call me a liar for making it up. Then she would convince herself of things that never happened.
  Could this be due to the xanex? This drug is new to me. I'd like anything you can tell me about it. Also about the withdrawel symptoms. I want to pass this on to her.
  Thanks again.
      Kerrie
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Thank you for your post. It's been a crazy 3 days. He did come over tonite, but I still don't know why? He didn't have dinner, he just sat there, he talked alittle, watched tv and left. At first he was a little jumpy and edgy. We got into it just alittle. He stills says his addiction had nothing to do with the problems. That it was me trying to control everything. I told him what I had found thru AL-ANON, that we become unmanageable, because of the insanity of the disease, we become obsessive, compulsive, we become out of control. I told him I felt helpless, that I could not control his addictions, and that when he was abusing, I coudln't take the distance, emotional withdrawal, the lack of affection. I told him it all made me crazy, not the person I really am. I asked him if he was still using methadone, he is, says 10 to 15 mgs. aday. But he doesn't look healthy, no color, alittle heavy. He says he always has headaches. That he's tired all the time, all he does is go to work and home to sleep. Nothing else, he doesn't go out. He says he just wants to get his act together, I wish him all the luck in the world. I asked him if he planned to go to NA meetings, get a sponser,counseling, something. He said no, he has it under control and doesn't need anything, or anyones help. He can do it on his own. Is he just fooling himself here? I don't see him able to do it, he's tried that numberous times. He asked me if I had something for his headaches, I said sure TYLENOL,I told him I nolonger take pills. He saw my patch, and asked me for one, things don't change. I finally realized in my heart and my head. I can't help him, I finally can accept it, and not just say it. It's out of my hands. The scariest thing, is what if he's right, what if the problems were not because of the addiction. That would make him a very mean and emotionally empty creature. I don't think I would love him then. What if he's just really like this now. He got alittle nicer after awhile, just talked, but I actually say him laugh, it's been a long time. When he left, he said he would come by again. What's this about? We can't just co-exsist like this, what does he want from this? I guess it's hard for him to let go too. Everyone forgot his birthday but me. What did he do to his kids, to make them not want to be with, or see him, they care so little for him, what did he do to them? Theres' more to this story than I know, maybe he's always been like this......Love Susan Lea
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WAY TO GO GIRL !!!!!!!!!!!! You have made the first big step. You confronted him with the truth. Of course he's going to say he can do it on his own. My brother has said it for years.He is such a hard worker. But he gets paid daily so he can get his alcohol and drugs. I love him dearly but I don't buy into any of his lies or fall for his tears. I've seen and heard it since we were kids at home.
  If he was addicted when he was living with his kids, there's probley a lot you'll never know. I bet if you asked him though, none of it was his fault.
  You done good girl. Hang in there. I'm rooting for you.
  I appreciate your kindness  about the baby I had that died. It's been 27 years ago but it's the kind of thing that stays with you in life. She was born without joints in her body. If she had lived she would of been in a nursing home unable to do anything for herself. I thank God for taking her home.She was beautiful though.Very red hair. God knows whats best for us even though we can't see it for the pain at times.
   God Bless You,
        Kerrie  (P.S.) Kerrie was the name of my daughter.
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Hi Leah,

Check out my postings to niccee about methadone witdrawl.
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I did check out your posting to niccee about methadone...not sure you really meant it or me.....could you have meant it for Lea? Anyway, the information is helpful and can always be passed on to help any person with this problem..Thanks
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Hi Leah,

I posted it to you as you have a child on drugs and wanted help with that. This cure works for all drugs - not just methadone as the root cause is zinc/mag depletion. If you have any doubts get the person to have a blood test and you will find they have virtualy no zinc/mag in their blood.
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Ok....gotcha!! I just reread your message and I understand what you are trying to tell me.. It is 2:40 AM now and I'm too tired to think this moring. I will answer your post in a day or two with some questions. I found out only tonight that the daughter is taking valium at night to sleep(she says) and iburprofen. Alcohol sometimes along with the meds. Thank You for your help.

LEAH
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HI  To  all  i  have  been  reading  all  these  forums.  you  all  seem  so  caring  and  nice  .  i  have  been  fighting  a  9  year  battle  with  my  son.  he  has  done  every  drug  you  have  heard  of.  his  choise  now  is  black  tar  heroin.  he  has  been  in  and  out  of  jail,  he  has  a  job  now  and  a  house  a  wife  and  a  7  and  4  year  old  girls. he  cleaned  up  for  a  few  months  about  2  years  ago.  after  his  last  trip  to  jail.  but  slowly  he  has  been  going  under  and  his  wife  uses  to,  they  have  sold  most  of  there  stuff  in  the  house  behind  on  bills.  and  the  kids  are  just  there  i am  heart  broken  i  worry  they  will  end  up  dead   i  want  to  take  the  kids  but  my  husband  and i  are  not  able  to  take  on  to  small  kids.  the  7  year  old  tells  me  everything  she  hides  a  watches  them  they  fight  and  she  looks  for  any  where  to  go  stay, my  son  is  a  good  person  but  he  has  let  the  drugs  rule  him.  he  only  cares  about  himself  i  have  tried  everything  he  has  been  to  rehabs  net care,  and   he  admits  the  problem  some times.  but  most  times  he  will  say  hes  clean  but  i  can  see  he   is  not.  he  has  went  from  260  down  to  220  in  the  past  6  months,  bt  he  eats  good.  i  have  thought  of  leaving  my  home of  34  years  i  have  thought  of  taking  my  life  because  i  dont  want  him  to  die  before  me,  i  just  want  him   to  take  care  of  his  kids  and  let  me  have  peace  for  awhile.  theres  so   much  more  but  i  need  advice   thanks  from  broken  heart  grandma.
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Sonrissa
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clean_in_ks
KS
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VICourageous
ID
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dominosarah
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