I came clean and got shot down!

[HedHurtz]

I have posted here before as a Fioricet and Adderall (adderrall) addict. I see that some people have read it. Well, I came clean to my husband last night. I wish ANYONE could have been a fly on the wall for this converstaion. It went down like this. First, I must tell you my husband is a DEA agent in Miami, so telling him was definitely rough. I told him that I take too many pills and that I want and need to quit. He said that he already knew, but he though that I seemed fine, taking care of our 3 month old daughter just fine and that other that spending too much money all was JUST FINE. Okay, I said that I'm not fine and I need to go into detox. He absolutely refused to let me go! He said there is no way that I could go, noone could take care of our baby and he could not do it himself. I would have to detox at home. I said, I could try to do it but I will need help. He said...(get this) just stop and take a couple of shot s of Vodka if I get shaky. So here I am, he's at work....I have Vodka and a 3 month old. Thank God I have a few pills left. He took the rest that I didn't have hidden. I cannot beleive this! What the hell am I in for?

[Francoise]

Get yourself some more medication, whatever you know you'll need to get you through until you can get to detox like you know it should be done. HIDE THEM!

Never tell that ******* you're married to another thing. He's not on your side; doesn't understand the problem; and apparently has no respect for you.

I'm so furious about your situation I can hardly sit still. Do whatever you need to do to get your meds back.

I'd better end this before I say more than I should. Let us know how you're doing.

Francoise

[HedHurtz]

Thanks for responding......I thought it was me. Please keep talking to me! I need you all to get thru this

[Jimenez]

Let's not get stupid here. This doesn't necessarily he lacks respect etc. for you. It means that he's like 95%+ of the population (including doctors) and doesn't understand true addiction or true withdrawal (which from barbiturates CAN kill you.) So, you can't go cold turkey here. It's not safe. Print something out on the internet, several things actually, that explain how you can have seizures etc. if you quit cold turkey. Allow the man to have a little bit of sinking in time with this. No one outside of those who actually are addicts and have experienced any sort of withdrawal really know how it is/feels. I told my doctor once upon a time that I wanted off of opiates etc. and asked her to wean me. She of course didn't and said just to "tough it out". Of course, I didn't. I find it unbelievable that medically trained individuals don't have more compassion and/or training. But the layman on the street is even more ignorant of what goes on. Have another talk with him, get your meds back or get more and figure it out. Share with him the depth of your ordeal and the consequences of doing it the way he wants to. It's very aggravating, but what's the alternative?

[Thomas02]

I second Francious -- you ARE married to a typical DEA *******. After all -- that's the only kind of people they hire. They're either butch-hair-cutted fascists and racists, or arch-drug addicts and dealers with badges. There's nothing to look up to in a DEA agent. The whole agency is one big monument to hypocracy and lies. They'd cheerfully send all of us to prison and never give it a second thought.

The best thing you could do for yourself is divorce that *******. Imagine, advising someone addicted to a barbituate to drink Vodka! What Crackerjack box did that advice come out of?

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

You are in an awful situation right now.  This is a case of mental and physical abuse in my opinion.  You are being ordered to drink Vodka and being denied help for your chemical addiction by your husband.  Take the baby and go.  Maybe he'll wake up someday but don't worry about him now.  It's all you from here on out and don't look back until you feel safe, healthy and secure.  I wish my daughter had done this.  We buried her a year ago last February.  Think about you and the baby first and get the hell out of that relationship.  It may kill you!  J.B.

[PS >>>>Annie]

I agree w/ Pat/Tom and JB.  Don't get me even started on the DEA.
Keep us posted.  You are not alone.

Annie

[cindi]

I did send in a post for you but for some reason or another it wouldn't go through....I agree with all of the others, Let me get this right...your DEA husband would not LET you go for help?  Not in this lifetime would anyone tell me I could not go and get help for myself, as moms we tend to put our children first, in this case you need to put yourself first or your child may not end up with a mom, is there anyone you can confide it and that would take care of your baby for a few days?  if so then do that, if not then you need to pack a bag and tell mr. Miami Vice that you are going for help and let that be your last words....then you go...you need to take care of you and the baby, he can take care of himself...and there is no reason he cannot take care of a baby for a few damn days, it won't kill him this may kill you...go for it, do what you have to do and good luck     cindi

[Brighty]

I will be the first to admit that before I understood addiction I may have behaved like your husband.... I was truly clueless and figured that anyone could stop if they wanted to.... I had never lived with addiction nor seen it close up... it was simply ignorance. It's somewhat difficult, however, to believe that someone working for the DEA would not be at least educated... but again their purpose is to criminilize a segment of our humanity... all for profit... your husband gets his bread and butter from this agency and likely is brainwashed by them... he may very well be in his own denial and feeling fear and shame about your situation... Gee, I'm a nice lady to be so easy on him.)Forget his control issues and take action... call your mom or mom in law or someone you trust and arrange child care.. and be SURE to tell him so he does not have some action against you.. it's his child too and he has the right to know where your baby will be.. .then call your insurance company... surely his employer offers this... and GO to treatment. There is another twist to this... perhaps your husband feels that if you go to treatment (detox and rehab) that the DEA will know via insurance records ( supposedly confidential but not really true) and he will somehow be investigated... it's not all that far out to think this way.... maybe that's his problem. In any case.... take care of yourself... how can you raise a baby with this looming problem not addressed ??? I will pray but please help yourself.  Love, Brighty

[pelle1985]

I have to agree with Annie here.  Your recovery (and quite possibly your life) depend on your getting help immediately.  If your husband does not want to help you, you must leave him behind and get on with your life.  I know I sound cold here, but the fact that you have such a serious problem and a spouse who either does not understand or does not care (or cares about how your rehab will affect *him* and his career. . .has anyone thought about that, folks?) merits you doing what you need to do to quite literally survive.  As for your child, who will suffer either from your addiction or your separation, you need to consider the fact that children repeat what they see at home.  Your decision to recover will be as closely observed by your child as your decision to continue to use.  They may not see everything at three, but kids are among the most intuitive creatures on the planet, and one way or another they will know what their parents are doing, for good or ill, and will be helpless in their repetition later in life.  Please consider all I and the others here have said, and if you wish, I will give you my personal email if you need anything further.

Peace,
Pelle

[cindi]

Hi Brighty,  you amaze me,  you know the more I think back I believe that is how my parents were before i went into treatment, they were really clueless, but the advice you gave to her about letting her husband know where the baby is was soooo right,,,You my dear think of everything....love to all  cindi

[Francoise]

With all due respect, "printing something out from the Internet" will likely not achieve the end contemplated. Principally, this is because it is a logical, rational, reasonable approach to what is apparently an emotional situation with Mr. Miami Vice involving this job, his peers, his agency, his self-image and god knows what else. Why else would a husband treat his wife, who he knows to be in trouble, in such a shabby fashion?

People cannot be convinced against their will, no matter how much logical, rational information is presented. Ever try to convince the Jehovah's Witness at your door thay they are on the wrong track? It's an emotional thing with them, no matter how rational they think they are. Same with Mr. Miami Vice.

Put the baby with a safe person like your mother-in-law, your mother, somebody, anybody and - as suggested - tell your husband where the child is. You need to focus 100% of your efforts and your energy on yourself. You have neither the time nor the resources to take care of a three-month old baby. It may not take a village, but it damn sure takes a mother and a father together cooperating. That's not what you've got.

Take care of yourself and your problem, then worry about Mr. Nice...er, Vice.

[Jimenez]

I can't believe all you guys. Yeah, we all have personal vendettas against the DEA. Put that **** ASIDE. What if he was a barber? Would your advice change? I REALLY THINK IT WOULD. And that's pathetic. She has kids with this guy. All he's guilty of is not knowing about true addiction and withdrawal! Like I said - that's most of the world people! So, don't be so damn flippant and tell her "Yeah divorce that *******" just because of his job. That's just poor. You're basically saying that this man, because of his profession, doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt or the right to a second chance. ****, no one's even explained to him the ramifications of her problem - including her! He doesn't understand. Period. To just say "Oh yeah, he's told you to drink vodka to clean up, Dump him immediately" is really simplifying the situation to obsurdity. A job does not make the man, I don't care how many times the DEA busted you. ****, half the time the addicts here deserved it and were probably saved as in LIFE by some kind of legal intervention. Yeah they're all suit and tie beareaucrats, so what. There are kids involved etc. I don't think anyone should divorce someone over something so STUPID. Inform him. Let him know what's going on. Let him know you could die. If, and ONLY THEN, he says "Oh, who cares, you're not going to have a seizure, here have a drink" then you should consider anything but staying. If this is all it takes for you to leave than it sounds like you marriage and your communication with your husband was ****** up to begin with. Get counseling etc. I'd hate to have you guys turn on me because of my JOB! for Pete's sake. You guys aren't even looking at the situation with an objective eye anymore. You saw that he worked for the DEA and immediately deemed him a useless ******* who could never be made aware of the seriousness of this situation. Kinda like the way doctors stereotype you when you go into the ER with a painful disc, or a migraine headache - "Oh here comes a doper." You don't like being stereotyped, so try to hang onto an ounce of your own integrity by not doing it to others. I've seen the same situation pop up on this board many times and the compassion that arises for people with real husbands with "real" jobs is much different than what I'm seeing here. The guy is ignorant, give him a break. This really pisses me off. It's the pot calling the kettle black BIG time.

[Brighty]

I do agree so do not include me in "all you guys"... I gave him the benefit of the doubt big time.. I have been where he is. I remember my husband telling my daughter who was on heroin to try smoking pot to get off the dope... we were both so dumb. However ....this man DOES work for the DEA and my take is that they are well trained and spend alot of time in courts also seeing the results of addiction as it relates to their role in enforcement of our drug laws. It does not seem to me that he would be ignorant about her situation... although it's possible, which is why I did give him the benefit of the doubt... but somehow I don't think that's the case...call it an educated guess perhaps... still, it is more likely that he is encased in his own denial... I do agree that it's somewhat irrational to tell a woman to leave her husband under the circumstances she stated. What you recognized here in the comments is the underlying contempt for our government, it's profitable participation in the global drug industry and the fact that people who are struggling see the DEA as gathering dollars with one hand and whipping addicts with the other. It's a just anger... while legal intervention HAS saved some lives, my precious daughter's to be exact... the fact remains that the source of the problem is not removed, it's too profitable to structure it so addicts get help instead of years of involvement in the legal system. NO ADDICT DESERVES PUNISHMENT. The pusher at the top plea bargains because he knows the names of everyone under him... the little guy who is sick and supporting a habit only knows the one person above him... that sort of thing is pervasive... addicts are suffering... and I think what happened here is that the sympathy went with the addict and alot of underlying pain and anger surfaced. I agree with you about the advice she was given... it was rash... but you did a great job of letting us see the other side... and I am simply using the board to object to the injustices that addicts suffer at the hands of our government... I do not see addicts profitting from their disease... but the legal system, DEA, law enforcement and other governmental agencies DO. I enjoy your posts and am grateful for the opportunity to add my 2 cents via your post. Thank you. Love, Brighty

[cindi]

Obviously, this has you very irritated.  I never suggested she leave her husband, however, what I did say was basically simple, find someone to care for the baby if he won't and then go to treatment regardless of what he says.  How dare someone tell another person he REFUSES to let her go into detox.  I could give a rat's ass that he is DEA  I don't care if he is Christ himself, he has absolutely no right to dictate to her what she can and can't do.  Ok so he may be uneducated as far as addiction goes, but i don't think that is his problem,  In her post she stated he would not let her go into treatment because there in no way HE can take care of the baby...so he told her to detox at home and if she gets shaky hit on some Vodka,  gee what a guy...how considerate of him to allow her to indulge in Alcohol. Ok so now we have a guy who won't let his wife go into detox, won't take care of the baby, oh yeah and then he took the rest of her pills that she didn't have hidden, hmmmmmm  do we have a control issue going on here or what...(and yep I am going to stereotype now), Typical  of an officer of the law.  I lived with one for many years and I know many,many cops/agents etc.  they do have control problems and alot of them will admit to this. If this is the case and I said IF, then this woman probably is afraid of him, She needs to find the courage to stand up to this guy and tell him, "hey this is what I am going to do, like it or not, deal with it or don't the choice is your's" period....end of discussion.  Then stand her ground, go get help and then take it from there.  If he wants to be a "swell" kind of guy then he can go and take addiction 101 or whatever to learn about what is happening to his wife, and ya know what else? I'll bet if this guy did have another job, say maybe a carpenter or steel worker he would not be so flippin self centered and in the ME ME ME mode....he would not think he is so high up on his pedastal, and as far as stereotyping people such as you say we are doing,,,do ya think that the DEA does not stereotype? they have us all labeled as JUNKIES, low life. scum etc. Anybody who has ever had any dealings with DEA knows this...Yeah, so you are irritated with us that are defending this woman who so desperately wants to get help but she is not allowed.  Well, I am irritated also at the audacity this guy has to think that he really is king of the castle and can dictate a persons life.  Whether he knows anything about addiction or not it is her choice.   Not his, that is not what marriage is all about.If it was him that was in trouble you can betchur ass he would be getting the help he needed, he would never endure the kind of suffering he is causing his wife. It is victims like her that we hear about on the news.

[CHAD FROM PHILLY!!!]

I get the feeling that nobody cares for the DEA. Would this be an accurate assumption?

[Francoise]

Right on Chad.

The philosophical musings about this guy would be more appropriate in my opinion if hedhurtz wasn't in an acute, emergency, crisis situation. Then it might be profitable to talk about what reactions might be appropriate if the husband here were a barber. He isn't.

The situation is at it is, and I don't think it's realistic to ignore the emotional, psychological, and social environment in which it's taking place. In fact, the referenced environment may very well be a large contributing factor in hedhurtz' problem.

Personally, I hope that hedhurtz will take care of her immediate problem now (does she really have an option?), and then consider how she will handle the environmental one once her personal crisis has been resolved.

I agree with the majority of you that she should:

1. Arrange for a trusted third party to care for the child.

2. Enter detox. She certainly doesn't need her husband's permission to take care of herself. What if she were having a heart attack? Would she need his permission then, too?

3. Obtain her husband's agreement to engage in therapy thereafter.

Whatever she decides to do, I hope she does it soon, and handles this problem while it is still relatively small. If it is allowed to grow, it very well may get so entirely huge it would be out of her hands entirely.

[Brighty]

LOL !!!! I think you're on to something :-)) I love the !!!! after your name... it's very revealing about your enthusiasm.... I am personally impressed that someone as young as you are is really taking the bull by the horns and taking a front row seat in your own healing... Blessings to you and Debra.... PS.... you have me adding my own !!!!!'s... Thank you !! Love, Brighty

[HedHurtz]

Thank you all for responding. It seems that Iv'e started quite a discussion here, and you know what? That's what my life is, one big friggign discussion. My husband actually told me that he was a Vicodin user after his 2 back surgeries and that he was on the and Percocet for months, but he had to quit "cold turkey" and he did it. He was taking like 20 a day! So, why can't I quit! I told him that " I am not YOU...I am a GOD DAMN ADDICT". Hello!!! I think it's the fact that I can completely hold myself together, look good and take care of Emily that he feels that I don't have a problem. Do I have to "act like a junkie" whatever that means, before I ask for help? Do, I have to act like I'm completely insane and scream and yell and try to kill myself or hold one his MANY guns that he has laying around the house to my friggin head before I'm actually taken seriously? I am so glad that I found you guys, because I have NOONE to talk to here.

[cindi]

Ok, your husband cold turkied from Vicodin and percodan...You are taking something which contains a barbiturate which is more dangerous to cold turkey from than vicodin.. have you told him this Re; the barbiturates? You are right, you are not him, my husband and I are not alike, he can take 1 pill for pain and never think about more...Me, on the other hand am not happy with 120 pills.  we are all different, our bodies react to everything differently, Women react to stress differently than men, so his cold turkey from the Vics do make him the "man" lots of people have accomplished this..granted it is definately a bummer but it has been done and I don't think anybody has died from it, coming off the barbs can cause alot of different problems including seizures,,When he tell you that if he could do it, you can to, think about this,  you pushed out a baby (like a watermelon through a nostril) so if you can do it, so can he....I am very concerned about you, Hon, it is your life, take it by the horns and do what you have to do...for you and that baby and let him handle what may come his way...good luck   cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

**************YES, VERY ACURATE!!!*****************************

[Thomas02]

cindi is absolutely right. If hedhurtz husband is so ill-educated as to believe that you can safely cold turkey off of a barbiturate simply because you can from an opiate, he doesn't deserve to draw a paycheck from the DEA or any other agency. He's an idiot and a fascist who puts his own career ahead of the welfare of his wife and child. What do you want to bet he's already hooked on multiple drugs himself, and, as someone already suggested, doesn't want to be investigated by his own colleagues.

[PS >>>>Annie]

(sp) MISSING "C" UP THERE.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Since we are on the Hedhurtz husband issue.  I have a few choice things to say about my own.  He has been on my case for 3 weeks now.  Ok it's time to get back to work, ok it's time to get serious, ok it's time to stop taking your medication, ok ok ok!!!! ENOUGH ALREADY!....If I had the family support, I'd say hit the road....man.  What's up w/ these men,(No offense to my forum men friends).  I am so dam confused.  W/o boring yall w/ all my medical problems, I'll say this: "My husband can be so insensitive!"  Now he is worried about addiction.  Not because he cares, but my problems just might interfere w/ his little plans.  Kinda similar to Hed's husband....MEE- mee- mee- mee- I- I -I- I, ......This society is sooo screwd up.  It's ok to suffer, but not ok to get help for anything. We are just supposed get over it, ok.  I'm getting tired of being a door mat, tired of being strong, tired of being patient, tired of the excuses...tired, tired, tired!!!!
Sorry yall.......just had to get a few things off my chest here.
Annie

PS...Tom/Pat....I don't know if I'll ever get the time to write my essay.  I'm so spittin mad right now.  I tell you, it would probably be full of anger.  Now I need the prayers.

[cindi]

LMAO, not at you but the subject, I just had it out not too long ago with husband about the same situation.  I went to ER last Monday for another bout of pneumonia, I came home sick as a do to find him laying on the couch complaining of a "tummy" ache...I just looked at him I think it may have been a really sick kinda look and I went to bed. the whole damn house could have fallen apart but I was to sick to care...so when my son pissed his pants and my daughter whined she was hungry   he had no choice but to deal with it,  his tummy ache went away real quick.of course the dishes and the cleaning was left for me to deal with when I felt better,  he ususally gives me 24 hours to recover then that's it...GOD forbid it takes 48 hours, my time is up...from talking with my friends that have one of these things called a husband  (sorry guys) our stories are pretty much all the same..Actually though mine is not so bad, when I have been really really sick after a c-section gone bad he was there every minute helping me and taking care of the baby, I think it is a gene or a trait that God has given to them   a gene called the ME gene...acceptance my dear, acceptance...you have to look at both the positive and the negative, and what may be their complaints about us?  just ask my husband...LOL  but in the case of hedhertz, this is just a plain case of abuse, mental, verbal etc.  her husband pretty much makes mine look like a saint.  I think patrick pretty much summed it up....take care   love to all cindi

[Francoise]

I hope that we don't stray too far from Hedz' problem with the generic discussion about mates, mainly men. Her problem is complicated by her husband's attitude, no doubt. At this point, I'm wondering what she's actually going to DO.

So, Hedhurtz, what ARE you doing, even as we speak? What is your next move? What are you prepared to do? What are you doing?

As for mates. Well. I make a considerable income. Always have. And several years ago, when I was a single guy, 40 years old, and in the top 5% of income earners, I attracted not just a couple of arch-typical gold diggers. These women weren't just pretty, they were georgeous. Ex-runway models, airline stews, corporation executives. Georgeous. They seemed to think they had some kind of entitlement for me to pay their bills due to the fact that they were so beautiful, and that they were "doing" me. One even said, "All the guys I've ever dated paid my bills. You. You don't even ask!"

After I broke up with that one, I discovered that she'd stolen some of my clothes, taken cash from my safe, and in a final act, had charged a round trip to Miami from Atlanta on my AMEX card.

Just wanted to point out that assholes come in both sexes.

Francoise.

[cindi]

You are so right about assholes coming in both sexes.  My husband is great but it is just plain fun to **** around with him  you know  the typical male bashing  thing  it's all in good fun, however, when you have a case such as hedhertz it is truly sad...i am hoping for the best for her and maybe mr. Miami Vice will see that she can stand on her own two feet.....love to all cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

....Your so right.  Maybe I didn't count to 10 before I posted that.  I have befriended so many people here, and do worry also.
Yeah there are "all kinds" out there.  Just for the record...I have put my hopes and dreams aside, and invested money and free labor....to help my husband pursue his dreams, all the while dealing w/ serious health issues.  He is very ambitious, and tends to be insensitive at times.  I have a lot on my plate, and just come here to vent from time to time.  Hey we all need to do that.  I didn't mean to bag all men in the same category.  I do believe that women can be quite the vixens.  
Let's keep this line open for Hedhurtz.  She dealing w/ some serious problems. I hope she keeps us posted.  And good-luck to you sir.

Annie  (:

[Brighty]

You husband has guns laying all around the house ??????????????
You made an oblique reference.... no, let me re-word that... a rather direct reference.... to possibly threatening suicide in order to be taken seriously?????????????

Junkie is a word that has lost it original connotation.... it seeks to separate those who are functional addicts from those who are not. Generally the more functional have plenty of resource.. money and connection away from the streets.. but it doesn't stay that way for ever.

I think the problems in your household are more complex than just your addiction. If you were my daughter, and I had the information you just gave us, I would be at the door with my family doing an intervention....getting you out of the house to detox and conseling and demanding of your husband to know why guns are laying all around the house and taking action to have them confiscated for carelessness !! You have a child growing up in  a house with guns laying all around ??????????????????????
Do you know the statistics of child death because of carelessness with guns ??????????

There is a dark side to your life...I am not a shrink... but either you are already negatively affected by the drugs and have  a distorted image of your reality ( this happened to my daughter) or you are on target and coping with your addiction and a very unhappy, unmanageabe home life. YOUR HUSBAND IS NOT NORMAL if what you say is true. You need help beyond just getting off the drugs. Please get moving on the advice you have been given here... TODAY IS NOT TOO SOON.

I heard loud and clear what JB said about wishing he and his wife had gotten their beloved, departed daughter out of the home she was in. That is a strong message to YOU , hedhurtz.


I rest my case... this man is "trained"... about guns and  about addiction.... he is in a mentality where he thinks he is different and above it all.

That you feel you may have to do something so desperate is the loudest cry for help that I have heard here EVER !!! Carrying out this action could get you Baker Acted in most states, which would propel you into the treatment you want and your husband would have no control over it.... but you could die in the process. Get out of the house today to a family member and stay there till you are packing to go to detox.
If you need to talk my e-mail is ***@****   My only discussions would be directed to getting you into treatment NOW. All the rest of this is wasted chit chat.

Love, Brighty

[cindi]

I think Brighty has really summed it all up, all of her points are valid, and very frightening to think about...guns?  children?  a control freak?  They just don't mix...sorry, I am not as eloquent with my words as Brighty. I think you can tell that we are all very concerned for you and your safety, We have given you advice out of the wazoo, the rest is up to you,  You have to do the footwork, please, take the advice this forum has offered you and run with it...now   Love cindi

[CHAD FROM PHILLY!!!]

If only spook could come and save the the day! ha ha ha

[cindi]

Ok, I'm not gonna holler at you because you have found a place in my heart, you and deb  Spook really is an Ok guy, really!!! give him a chance, he is hurting like alot of us  Please ???  Be nice it's Sunday     Love cindi

[CHAD FROM PHILLY!!!]

Ok Cin, I'll play nice. I was telling a friend of mine tonight that I heard the oxycontin's singing from my next door neighbors house last night. I believe it was Aerosmith's Sweet Emotion....

[cindi]

Good boy, I'm proud of you for playing nice...Hmmm sweet emotion huh,  Were the oxy's saying "walk this way?"  If they were ya better run fast

[PS >>>>Annie]

Cindi.....you crack me up sooooo bad.  I'm on the floor literally........wait!!! Picking myself up.  Yikes.  I tell you, I can be in a terrible mood....and come to this board,(my husband thinks i'm loosing my marbles) and laugh till no end.

Chad....Nock that little devil right off your shoulder.  He would love to tear you down, and drag you through the depths of hell.  A lil dramatic, but hope it works. (:
Spook.....come home!!!!! lol.......Chad will play nice.


Love you guys (look cin: You guys)lol

Annie

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I did get a bit emotional over this thread and I would like to tell you all why.

My daughter was an epileptic and taking Dilantin to control her seizures.  We knew that the next grand mal seizure could be her last(fatal).  She was engaged to be married to a man who had severe problems of his own that we were unaware of at that time.  He was the basic self-centered control freak and very concerned with "appearances".  

His "high class" family was pressuring him to drop my daughter because of her epilepsy.  It was a combination of severe stress and not taking her meds properly that caused her death eleven days before the wedding.  My wife and I had met this "gentleman" and considered him a bit demanding and rude, if not obnoxious.  He was a graduate from law school and well educated though.  

Most of all our daughter was in love with him and determined to please his every whim.  She was also a college grad with a degree in business, very pretty, bubbly and had never tried drugs including alcohol until she met this man.  I'm crying now and wish that I could have been stronger and more supportive when she needed me.  I find it difficult to go on typing.  J.B.

[cindi]

I think Hedhertz really has us in touch with our emotions. I received an E-mail earlier from a friend in the forum and the tears have not stopped yet...Jb, Your post was so honest and moving, I will just let it be, though I will say I am so very sorry for the pain and grief you face each day, enduring the tragedy of losing a loved one is so very painful but to lose a child would be the most devasting of all.  When we lose someone we are always full of "I wish" and "what if"  JB, I have no words of wisdom like Brighty, as I am still searching for something to ease the pain of losing my mom, just know that as much as I say that I have felt my faith slip, I must still believe because I have already said a prayer for you and your family....I'm sorry, I can't finish this

[PS >>>>Annie]

You and your wife have been through so much.  I hope what I have to say will help.  Just from reading your post, I can tell that you were a very loving, caring father.  As a daughter myself, I'm here to tell you that any girl would be proud to call you Dad.  
My father was a very good provider, but lived a life of booze and partying.  We thought that we were close, but not really.  I never felt that connection w/ my parents.  Everyone here like Pat/tom, Brighty, Cindi....and you seem to be such awesome parents.  Please don't have any regrets.  I'm sure she knew you loved her.  
You may say...."how can you say that, Annie...You don't even know me."  When we write, especially anonymously, we bare our hearts.  Our words are the blue prints of our heart and soul.  If that makes sense.  Hang in there JB.

Love,
Annie

[CHAD FROM PHILLY!!!]

I just wanted to say how sorry I am for all of your losses. My thoughts go out to you. Hey J.B. if you are reading this...you are a great man! You may not know this but people like you are the reason I and others have seeked help. I feel for all of you. I never have lost anyone close so I can't imagine your pain. It makes my own problems seem so very trivial. Keep on fighting guys.....In the end, we were all here for something, sometimes it just takes a lifetime to figure it out...chad

[HedHurtz]

Hello to all....
First I want to say that I am not giving up my meds just yet. I have been weaning off ogf them though. It is sooo hard, I feel like **** and I got drunk on Saturday. I got wasted and slept for 18 hours. My husband didn't like that either, but that was his suggestion. He really is clueless, which is why I will continue to take my meds and function accordingly. You have given me some options, none of which are suitable for "our" lifestyle! Today is Monday, and I just have to hold all together and learn to make sure I have enough pills to last through doctor appointments. I mean, that's what I'm supposed to do, right? Yes, he is controlling, but he is my husband and my life. As far as the gun issue, it's not like I made it sound. He is a cop, and he collects guns. It's his hobby, it was when I married him. I knew that going in. It comes with the territory. We have one child....4 months old on Wednesday. Those guns will be locked up when she's old enough to even crawl. Trust me.

[Brighty]

The guns should be locked up NOW. Your comment about putting one to your head attests to that. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

I have been told that a lifetime is not enough to get over the loss of a child. You handle yourself with courage and grace and are a testimony that the 12 step program works.... you could very well have called it all quits in the face of such sorrow. You and Marty raised a beautiful young woman... something we all wish for but sometimes fall short... you have a right to be proud of yourselves and your daughter. That you supported her in her happiness with her fiance was the best anyone could have done. Love is blind and often parents see the situation more realistically... and our hands are tied. Your daughter is an angel in paradise !! You are a wonderful family man and dad.... that you support Marty and what you did for your country are things that alone are lifetime accomplishments. The way your daughter turned out, free of drugs and alcohol, tell us the kind of guy you are considering that many addicts pass on their addictions via bad example... you will never know how much you have helped me when I really needed it. Love, Brighty

[Jimenez]

The DEA guy is "trained" to know about addiction? How to deal with it? What planet are you guys living on? He has less training than your typical M.D. about these issues - believe me. My family is loaded with active and retired narcotics officers. You all talk like you know the score with everything that is DEA or narcotics or law-enforcement. ****, no one's home. They are not taught the physical ramifications of withdrawal - if they were Tom wouldn't have sat writhing in a cell while he "withdrew" etc. The hatred that has been displayed here is shameful. My father was an undercover narcotics agent. He doesn't have the "control" issues that are being heaped on people associated with drugs and law enforcement here. Nor do any of my other family members and friend of the family. I can tell you one thing though - NONE of them are medically trained to deal with addicts after they are out of drugs or trying to "kick". WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY BE? They aren't around for that part. They have no need to know or care about that in their day to day life. They know as much as a plumber does about drug withdrawal. They enforce the laws that they are taught to enforce, whether you agree with them or not. They are around many of the dregs of society on a regular basis. Yeah, here it's "becase we're addicts that we broke the law." Well, that's not their reality. They have a right to their reality as much as you do yours. My father has busted people selling pot to their friends as well as a guy selling smack to grade school children. It's a mission of theirs to get what they can solved - from a CRIME standpoint. Do you think Agent Gomez of the DEA gives a rat's ass if the guy whose been stealing 2,000 Valium a month from a pharmaceutical warehouse has withdrawals in his jail cell that night from using 1/4 of what he stole? No, and he doesn't get paid to care. He's busting someone else before that guys even been booked! I've talked with a LOT of "trained" MEDICAL PERSONEL that don't have a clue about addiction and/or withdrawal - and THEY HAVE DEFINITELY been trained about this. Some more than others. So, you have people dispensing this medication who don't understand it, but you expect the cop who arrests or comes into contact with the same addict to understand? Naive at best. The "DEA/Cops suck" mentality is part of the "drug culture" and it's hilarious to know both sides. I, as a drug addict, don't deserve ANY sympathy from an officer of the law for the condition I put myself in. No, they shouldn't make my situation worse or make things harder on me because of my situation, but they owe me nothing. Specifically, they don't owe me or YOU any "special training" to deal with us. It's not their job. So, in an "in-home" drug crisis, this DEA agent is no more prepared to deal with this than Mrs.Jones 113 Maple Street is. He works in "drugs". Not the physical, emotional aspect of "drugs" but the tracking, confiscating and enforcing of the laws that surround "drugs". I've heard so many people **** and moan about how their "TRAINED" doctors haven't treated them correctly here in the face of addiction/withdrawal and how "under no circumstances should you tell your doctor about your addiction problem unless you want to be tossed out in the cold". Yet you all expect a person with nothing but basic training in drugs (Which usually is training about schedule I drugs - heroin, coke, pot etc.-streetdrugs) to have understanding of a prescription drug that he might have never even taken let alone know the pharmacology of. This is just so far beyond me here on this board. It's no longer about understanding, healing and communication. It's about many people who have been "burned" time and time again by their "loved" ones and law enforcement officials who have had to deal with THEM time and time again and have usually run out of tolerance and patience with them. Now these same people are dispensing advice to someone who may need to hear something other than "leave" or "he's an *******" or the other remarks that are less than constructive to this relationship. I know this, she loved him long enough to hang around with him and have kids. Several years here. Either the drug mania that surrounds addiction has taken hold and all the "good" things that have kept her with her husband have taken a back seat to this current situation or things weren't that good to begin with. I just really think that the advice should be peppered with both "If you love and want to stay with him try this..." as well as the less flattering advice. We're not in the room and for a minimum of several years and 2 kids lives to be thrown into a storm I think everyone that is actually involved in this situation needs to think about what they want. NOT what anyone's saying here. Deal with the drug problem through a clinic/doctor/rehab. Get that together and then tackle your marriage's communication problems. You can't do both at once, that I'm sure of. Do you really think that, if your husband REALLY knew what kind of pain and suffering you're going through he'd leave you "out to dry"? If you know in you heart that he would, why did you marry him? Why were you with him a year ago let alone now? If you know in you heart that your husband is an "OK" guy that would never tolerate your pain and suffering if he REALLY knew what you were going through, than you've got a good guy who just needs to be informed. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I'd like to think that the man you love and married and had kids with cares about you more than what it SEEMS he does right now. Only you know if he really does.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Only here in the country of freedom, equality, and liberty.
How did things get so screwd up??? I wonder.

What suggestions do you have to staighten this whole mess out.
Maybe we come down a little to hard on the DEA, but I guess the problems is really higher up.  I can only think about countless chronic pain sufferers who have lost compassionate, caring, doctors.....and also the cancer patients, and Oh what about the numbers in suicide both related to addiction and under-treatment of pain.  
We do live in a society where it's easier for law inforcement to enter a medical facility and arrest doctors, and their patients, than it is to go out into the depths of hell and arrest "real" criminals.  One doctor in particular comes to mind......Dr. Hurwitz.  Several of his patients have committed suicide after his license was revoked.  
Come on America we can do better than this!!!!! For addiction and chronic pain.  Is it that mind-blowing???  Notice I put both in the same category.  The 2 do go hand and hand, I believe.
As for Hedhurtz, I am sure she loves her husband......But love is a 2 way street.

Annie

[PS >>>>Annie]

BEFORE The Drug Policy Foundation* October 18, 1997 NEW ORLEANS, LA

Copyright © 1997 by Dr. William Hurwitz, MD

Introduction---

First, I would like to thank the Drug Policy Foundation for the opportunity to speak to you today.  I understand that the rights of patients to effective treatment and the impact of current drug policy on the doctor-patient relationship are very much on your minds, as they are on mine.  I offer my story as a case study of regulatory abuse, as we try to fashion an adequate political and legal response to what I think of as "The Police State of Medicine."

I will begin with a review of the legal events in my case.  I will then tell you about my patients and the impact of the legal action against me on them.  Finally, I would like to address two related questions:

How does the police-state of medicine affect medical care? and. . .What can we do about it?

What Happened to Me?

In May of 1996, my license to practice medicine was suspended without a prior hearing by the Commonwealth of Virginia after the deaths of two of my patients were incorrectly attributed to my treatment.  I was charged with having prescribed excessive doses of opioid analgesics in the treatment of 30 patients who, it was acknowledged by the Board of Medicine, had conditions causing intractable pain.

The charges were brought without any apparent reflection by the Board on the applicability of Virginia's Intractable Pain Act, upon which I was relying for legal protection.

The hearing might well be characterized as a Kafkaesque inquisition. This was not anything close to an open-minded search for the truth in which legal adversaries present evidence before an impartial finder-of-fact.  This Board thought it knew from the outset what constituted proper pain management, and it thought it knew that the high doses of medication I prescribed to many of my patients were illegitimate and without clinical rationale.  The number of pills I prescribed was all the evidence the Board or its prosecutors thought they needed.  They had not even bothered to subpoena my medical records!

When we pointed out that, under the Virginia Intractable Pain Act, dose alone was an insufficient legal basis for disciplinary action, rather than dismiss the charges, the hearing was turned into a fishing expedition for evidence with which to smear my name and to provide a rationale for the harm they had already caused me and my patients by the summary suspension.  The prosecuting attorney sponsored testimony to the effect that I was taking money under the table for prescriptions - testimony which was subsequently shown to be pure fabrication - without disclosing his witness' prior felony conviction for fraud.  He also presented testimony from an addiction specialist, who, it turned out, had himself been disciplined over a ten year period by this very Board.  He had been an anesthesiologist who was addicted to Fentanyl, a strong opioid used in anesthesia, which he stole from his patients - leaving them to buck in pain on the operating table.

My experts - all pain specialists of international repute (one of whom, Dr. C. Stratton Hill, is being honored at this conference) - were harassed by cross-examining Board members.  My patients, many of whom had traveled from distant states, were ignored, ridiculed, insulted, and ultimately condemned to pain and misery.

After this caricature of a hearing, my license was revoked. Although the revocation was stayed and my license was restored after three months, my authority to prescribe the controlled substances necessary to treat my patients was withheld.  The Virginia proceedings set in motion a cascade of legal action against me.  The authorities in the District of Columbia, where I was actually in practice, suspended my license.

This provided the DEA a basis to revoke my registration - although ultimately they agreed to transfer my registration to my Virginia address with restrictions paralleling those imposed by the Virginia Board.

After an informal hearing in August of 1997, the Virginia Board restored my ability to prescribe pain medicine and accepted a protocol for treating pain patients that was essentially the same as I had been using prior to my suspension.  By doing so, the Board appears to have accepted the legitimacy of the therapeutic principle that calls for adjustment of medications according to patient response without limit as to dose or combination.  The Virginia Board's action remains, at best, a symbolic gesture without practical consequence, however, unless and until the DEA restores my registration and the Board has an opportunity to demonstrate its good faith.

An appeal from the original Board Order of August 1996, in which the Court is called upon to interpret the extent, if any, of the safe-harbor protection afforded by the Virginia Intractable Pain Act, was heard in August of this year (1997).  The Court has not yet issued its opinion.  Nor has the DEA responded to the application I submitted over four months ago for full restoration of my prescribing privileges.  It's not their pain.

Only participants can have any idea of the exorbitant personal and professional costs such legal proceedings exact.  But this was nothing, when compared to the impact on my patients.

What Happened to My Patients?

At the time of the Virginia Board's suspension in May of 1996, I had over 200 patients with intractable pain from all over the United States. Some of their stories are gripping:

A young woman whose daily headaches were so bad that she had the nerves to the back of her head cut, only to find that after a brief respite, her pain came back worse than before.

A gentleman, now in his 50s whose legs had to be amputated when he was 18 years old.

They had been frozen when he was trapped in his car after an accident in 30-below weather.  He subsequently had the lower portion of his torso removed.  With the benefit of pain medicine, he was able to work and support himself.

A physician who had such severe reflex sympathetic dystrophy that his left arm became gangrenous and had to be amputated.

A woman in her thirties whose leg had been almost completely severed at the thigh in a motorcycle accident.  The orthopedist who reattached her leg also treated her pain with opioids.  But after he retired, none would continue her treatment.

There were over 200 of these patients with crippling pain from failed backs, arthritis, multiple sclerosis, interstitial cystitis, arachnoiditis, RSD, TMJ, Trigeminal neuralgia, and phantom limbs. . . the list goes on and on and on.  Many of them had come to me after years of unsuccessful attempts to obtain relief from a multitude of procedures, doctors, and pain clinics.  They were treated like addicts and criminals.

They were stigmatized, insulted, neglected and abandoned.  Betrayed by the whole medical profession with the refrain, "I would like to help you, but I can't.  I don't want to lose my license."  But who can blame the doctors, who are themselves the victims of the thuggish drug-control police and the heartless and mindless bureaucrats who serve on boards of medicine.

THIS IS DR. HURWITZ TESTIMONY

Need I say more???

[Brighty]

Whoa buddy... you just said for hedhurtz to tackle her "drug problem with a clinic/doctor/rehab" and handle the marriage problem later. That is exactly what she tried to do and her words are that "he absolutely refused" and told her to "detox at home".

People who told her to leave  have not qualified if that was permanent or not... the advice to leave is to go get the help she needs. Formally trained or not... not for a minute will I believe that just from experience in the streets that they are so clueless about the suffering of withdrawl as you say... I do believe that you are right that they don't care.

I did not say that I knew that the DEA were trained... but said that I would "at least think they would be educated". And they SHOULD be.  Addiction is buttering lots of bread... lot's of police forces are very aware of the "cop mentality" and are seeking to change the image. So let's not perpetrate it.
Your point is well taken when it comes to a medical community that is almost as ignorant... thankfully most ignorant doctors are not arresting people.

Francoise recognized that the husband did not understand either and JB also felt Hedhurtz needed to care for herself now and not look back until she was ok.... none of this indicates to leave the guy permanently.... and I, me, myself am the ONLY one who figured the husband  should be educated or assumed he was "trained." Find someone besides myself who said this. Therefore I will take your post to be mainly directed at me since your accusations about everyone else prove to be totally inaccurate. I am the only one who used that word.

Now, are you going to tell me that the DEA are not "trained"  about gun safety either ??? You seem to think this lady has 2 kids... in any case she asserts that there are guns laying around and will be sure they are locked up before they are a hazard to the baby.... are they a hazard to anyone else you can think of ??? She's wondering if she should hold one of them to her head to get his attention. Sounds pretty bad that she knows him better than the rest of us and projects this concern... the so called  "storm" you think her leaving will cause the children sounds better than the hurricane they now live in.

This guy,we now learn, has detoxed from some dosage of narcotics so do you still want to tell us that he is clueless about her situation to some degree ??

Come on, Jimenez... you seem to think we all hate the DEA... you are so right... as an ORGANIZATION... I don't think that we are all so insensitive to not realize that this is the way some people have their bread buttered and they are fine indivuduals who cannot afford to judge the morality of the whole system. They have a job to do. This was not a personal attack on your dad or anyone in your family so please don't take it that way.


The responses you read were based on information given to us...we do not tend to play out whole family dynamics here... we simply reply based on the information we have.

You are free to give this lady any advice you wish.

[cindi]

Brighty and Annie Basically summed it all up,  Brighty stated that we reply based on information as it is given to us,  Ok,  here it is, a DEA officer (forget he is DEA) a husband who has detoxed himself from opiates (so he knows whats ahead only this case barbiturates) REFUSING to allow his wife to seek help for herself, he is very controlling, (wife admitted that), collects guns as a hobby and a wife who was so angry and frustrated that she in fact did make reference to holding one of his MANY guns to her head, and Last but certainly not least,  A baby...hmmmmmmmm So let's get rid of all the bullshit talk and quit reading in between the lines...  Bottom line,  this family, this wife, this huband, this baby a ticking time bomb waiting to blow...PERIOD  Need I say more.......

[Jimenez]

First of all, NO not all or even most of that was directed solely at you. It's directed at a lot of people who are looking for any scapegoat they can. It's usually the "man". Well, anyone who has half a brain left should know that we all got ourselves into whatever mess we're in. Not anyone else. The "man" line of thinking is what keeps most of the people from tackling their own problems. It's always someone else. Anyway, this lady didn't give me, you or anyone enough information to give any advice. This is one time where I see Dr.Steve's reason for leaving things extremely vague. It seemed like a common enough problem until the three little letters DEA became involved. And then the sharks circled. Get this though if you don't get anything else out of this - they DO NOT train police officers as a rule of thumb on ramifications of pharmaceutical drug abuse. EXCEPT for knowledge that allows them to act better professionally or might interfere with their job as an officer of the law. The cop doesn't need to know the half-life of Klonopin to arrest the guy coming across state lines with 5,000 of them. I don't know why anyone here would think otherwise OR expect them to know anything about it. As far as the relationship goes - guns, kids and on and on - that's why I said "Only you know the answers" to that. It seems that this lady is in need. She went to her husband. He freaked, got scared etc. He tried to cover it up and make it go away like most humans do when they don't know how to react correctly to a situation. Period. He did what most people do. Not "good" people. Most people. So she came here. We're now more informed about her husband, his tendency to be an "*******", HIS drug problems, his gun problems, etc. This is typical of a person who is waist deep in her own problems and trying to shift focus. It's now about him, and has been for awhile. Read back. No one focused much on the original problems. They shifted. Now it's at least partially "his fault." ****, if someone wants to tackle their drug problems, the best way to do it is to only look at yourself. And that has been pointed out. I didn't give any or much advice because I really don't think ANY of us know what's really going on. We have a woman who is distraught and on the verge of withdrawals. You haven't been there Brighty, but I have. The minutes and hours that surround those final few pills are harrowing. They lead to the kind of behaviour we've seen here. Desperation. Looking for something, anything. No one here should have given any advice except for rational advice in my opinion. The "take it one step at a time here. First do this, then do that." Not "Leave your husband, he's an *******, DEA sucks, Rah rah rah." It's not compassionate, it's not constructive. I don't take all what's been said by her without 15 grains of salt. Why, all of a sudden, are these problems - miscommunication, guns, kids, etc. coming up NOW in her life? Is it these things that have led to the abuse of drugs? Or is it the abuse of drugs that have led to the miscommunication etc? And now that the pills are almost gone and she's played her last card, she's desperate. This is way too deep and requires an "I suggest you seek the help of an addiction specialist and a marriage counselor" kind of Dr.Steve answer. But to just give everyone a podium to spout the ever present evils of the DEA and why they're an inadequate mass of untrained assholes is absurd. Nobody's been helped by this thread. At least not in a way that I feel is the best way they could have been helped. That's all I have to say.

[PS >>>>Annie]

..........Sharks?????????  lol

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

In my experience, the more you come down on a situation like this, the farther you will drive someone away from you.  I think that most parents will agree with this.  As much as it hurts, you have to let the person work things out on their own terms lest we become just as controlling.  I'll stay out of this one from now on and watch what happens.  Good luck to Hedhertz!  J.B.

[cindi]

I do have to agree with you when you say this is something for Dr. Steve, I don't think anyone here has meant to hurt hedhertz, She came to this forum for obvious reasons and we all put in our 2 cents worth whether you disagree with it or not, She does not have to take any advice, and to be honest I don't think she will,  as pretty much indicated in her last post,  Her husband is her life,  Now, she needs to do what she needs to do.  As far as the "man" thing goes, I don't think this was the intent of anybody here, to bash the men  to be honest with you that is not what women gather to do at tea time.  so no, we don't always focus on the male bashing.   It just so happened that in this case hedhertz had stated her husband refused to let her get treatment,  My big thing is why does a grown woman have to "be allowed" to do something.  However, you are absolutely right when you say that none of us knows what is really going on,  We did take what she told us about the guns etc.  We read what she told us and we became concerned and afraid for her safety and for that baby, and for us to not be concerned would not be human.   All of us in this forum cannot agree on everything, not one of us is absolutely right and not one of us is entirely wrong, You as well as the rest of us are entitled to our own opinions and that is what we gave, opinions, she asked, we answered, to make us out to sound like we are some kind of male bashing feminist group looking for an ax to grind is ridiculous.and yeah, some of us may have issues re: the DEA but I couldn't give a rat's ass if he was Christ himself, The woman portrayed him as a controlling gun fiend that she was obligated to OBEY...were we misinformed?  possibly, but honestly   I think we all really cared about this woman and did the best we could do to try and help her in even some small way and I don't feel it was a bit uncompassionate or unconstructive and if you didn't have anything to really say to her why did you feel so compelled to blast all of us? This had nothing to do with you or anybody in your family involved with law enforcement but yet you seem to have taken all of this so very personally...We all really do see things in very different ways.

[PS >>>>Annie]

.....Man u talk about the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.  You seem to have a great deal of anger bound up.  We only responded aggressively, mirroring her detailed account of the situation.  We are all friends here.  That includes you, I hope.
As far as the DEA.....There are bad apples in every walk of life.
I'm sure they are not ALL bad. Don't take it personal.  We all have our personal opinions on the DEA.  Mine happens to be it's involvement in medical field. You stated that there efforts were valid in some cases. If we tilt the boat to far to the left or to far right....then we loose a few lives.  The key is balance.  That doesn't seem to be happening in this country.  
This is also my argument...When we "police medicine" as we have, it also affect treatments for addiction.  Man this is serious stuff.  We are talking lives here.  So forgive us, if show a little holy anger from time to time.  Lives, dude....lives!
Conclude w/ this scenario....Doctors are free to treat chronic pain as they see fit, and people are pouring into dr's ofc's getting help for addiction from methadone, etc......I'd say the DEA could go on a long vacation.  But that cost money doesn't it???  Chill out.  Take a deep breath, man.

Annie

[Brighty]

Annie... the testimony of Dr. Hurwitz was gripping. Do you know the outcome of his case ?? Where is he now and what is he doing?

I wonder if he had a counter action ??  Anyway, thanks, it was a thought provoking article.

LOL.. sharks... great whites, sand sharks, card sharks, loan sharks.... :-))

Cindi.... always covering the bases !! :-)) Man bashing... seems our men here also "bashed" the man :-)) You hit the nail... seems like Hedhurtz is still not ready...which is also ok... it takes time and courage... I pray she finds it.

Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

This is what forums are famous for... open discussions about topics... all facets... it's not a right or wrong thing.. just a point of view thing... we all stated our ideas both good and not so good... you were a catalyst for interesting discussion !! That's good in my opinion.

Now the biggie ..... are you a male of female ??? Well I thought hedhurtz was a male at first... and Francoise a female... and Francoise was dating models and flight attendants... so I figure now she/he's a man !!! :-))) I have discovered it's not safe to assume anyhting anymore !! :-)) Just curious before we tackle the "man" bashing issue :-))) which has nothing to do with addiction medicine or religion for that matter :-))
Please come to the forum and send us a smile :-)) Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

I am still laughing my ass off over the butch haircut thing !!! You are a genuine article !!! How are you doing lately ??? Love, Brighty

[HedHurtz]

The bottom line for me, RIGHT NOW, TODAY is that I need to know how to wean myself off of these pills without going through terrible withdrwals. Yes, I know I will have them, but I know there is a way to slowly get off of them so I don't have a seizure or what have you. Can any one explain this to me? Please. That is my option for NOW>>>>>>>>TODAY!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I haven't seen anything from Spook lately.  I wonder if he's gone for good due to all the negetive feedback he's gotten here on this forum.  Personally, I hate when this happens!  J.B.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I'll just tell you what I would do(and probably get flamed).  You need a taper schedule for the meds which were Ritalin and Fioricet as I recall.  I think that you will have to get your doctor(s) involved in this because it requires a certain amount of monitoring and possibly some alternate meds.  It also takes a lot of willpower and the ability to stick to a schedule.  Because I had problems with this kind of stuff, I chose inpatient detox. The point is that it's really difficult for most of us to "go it alone" one way or another.  I wish you the best!  J.B.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Ill probably get flamed too JB.  I havent been coined an addict yet, but here is my limited experience with coming off meds.  I have never experienced a severe withdrawal in 8 yrs.  I have been on pain meds for 3 months now.  The other stuff your on, I don't know much about.  Here goes.  I count the number of tablets that I have left and gradually break them down (till i'm down to half a pill), I only take the halves when I start to feel the symptoms.  I do this till there are no more left.  I feel a little bad for about 24hrs, but nothing severe.  Take some vitamins.  Drink DIET coke.  Also, slim fast drinks are full of vitamins....and tend to give you a charge.  I don't know exactly what numbers you were up to, but I've only got up to 2 pills at a time, 4xs a day.  So, I only have had minimal withdrawals if any.  I wasn't given meds for years, so this is my experience from the last yr or so.  I'm not sure if this will help....Pat/tom gave someone very good advice once....I think it envolved milk thistle...some other vitamins...HEY PAT, DO YOU REMEBER????  I can't.  Well, anyway.....I hope this helps, as I said, I'm not that learned when it comes to this, but take it for what it's worth.  YALL DON'T LAUGH AT ME NOW.....I'm trying.

Good Luck,

Annie

[Jimenez]

First of all - I love all you guys. Secondly, I was never "mad" at any point of this conversation. Involved, concerned - yes. But never mad. I think everyone has made valid points, just that I don't know how much the person in need will take your points and run with them rather than think them through. I know first hand that when someone has just spilled their guts to the ones they "trust" and they are on the verge of running out of pills, they are not very stable. At one time, I knew I needed to quit hydrocodone. I just KNEW it. Tired of the rat race. So, I went in to see my doctor. I told her "I want off." She said "Oh are the meds that your taking not helping with the pain anymore?" I said, "That's not the issue. My tolerance is so high that I need 10x the amount to help with pain and that's really not the reason I'm taking them anymore anyway." She said, "Well, just finish what you have and quit. Take one in the morning, one at night until they're gone." I said "You don't understand, I need to be weaned off of them. I've been taking them rather steadily for 8 years, it's a ritual in my life let alone an addictive habit, you don't break 8 years of habit in 5 days without knowing that a relapse is right on the horizon." Doc says "Just tough it out. Here's 7 more Vicodin ES to get you through." (One dose maybe 1 1/2!) So, I ended up back there the next night. Crying, desperate and seeking drugs in any form. The moment she sees me she says "Get out of here! I'm mad at you and I'm NOT giving you anymore Vicodin!" I said "Well, could you at least give me a pep talk, I'm having a hard time here." I got the "you're a big kid now, tough it out and quit getting so wound up. Here's some Paxil." Well needless to say, I found the next available opiate and swallowed it with renewed glee. But those 24-48 hours where I had played my cards with the person who provided and also with my spouse by the way, were some of the most desperate, confusing hours of my life. So when I read Hedhurtz, I hear a lot of that going on. You canNOT be rational during that time. You feel like everyone has abandoned you. You are completely alone and physically miserable with no end in site. The power of suggestion at that stage is extremely strong. So I was just cautioning against that. I didn't mean to turn this entry into a "all about Jimenez" post, but I think it might shine some light on how I've been there and know that if someone said things like I saw being said here, I may have taken the advice at face value and ran with it, being in that state, and cosequences be damned. I took no offense at all at any of the law enforcement jabs. I know better. I've seen the other side first hand so no amount of bashing is going to easily change my mind. Once you've seen your father jab his arm numerous times with a pin to mimmick track marks so he actually looks like a junky to make a heroin buy undercover, you don't take the layman's "view" of narcotics agents into account much.

I sometimes view this forum as a healthy way for people to express their problems and for those same people to "feel better" about themselves by "helping" others here. At other times, I see this place as a catalyst for drug use and a crutch for many of the regulars to talk and talk and talk about drug abuse, but never do anything about it. Sometimes I think the continual talk about drug and alcohol problems become as big of a problem as the original addiction. I knew a woman, 10 years "sober". AA. I couldn't open a Pepsi without her saying "Ahhh, I love that sound" as in, a beer popping open. Every single conversation I had with her would inevitably lead back to her and her alcohol problem. She attended meetings up to 3-4 times a day, 10 years into her sobriety! I'm not bashing AA, but I am bashing any format, including this one that people cling to for any prolonged amount of time and lean on it in any way. Yes it's physically healthier to "talk" about addiction than to be actively addicted. But what life did you get back when you quit? Are you out learning to fly an airplane? Writing the great American novel? Hitting the road like Kerouac? No, you're sitting in front of a computer talking about all the problems that held you back from "really doing what you wanted to do". You're still involved in drugs, and it's still robbing you of the time. I think an occasional look at the board is good, but especially in the case of hedhurtz, I see people trying to redeem themselves by helping others. And I never want anyone to think that I'm saying helping others is bad, but damn, we ALL need to get out and smell the roses. We all, at one point or another, need to STOP talking about drugs 24-7 or having them invade our lives and rob them once again. If we're all doomed to a life where drugs are the last and final all consuming thought for the rest of our days, we're all screwed. This is as much written to myself as it is to all of you. I need to take some of my own advice. I'm currently awaiting a script for MS Contin. So, I'm no better than anyone here, so please don't take this post as condescending. Chronic pain and pills unfortunately go hand in hand. I'm currently holding hands with that devil again, and don't know if I'll ever be able to walk alone. But, at 5 p.m. when I get off work, I don't have access to this board. On the weekends, same thing. I got rid of my internet access at home (GASP! I know, what a novel idea in 2001! It doesn't hurt and my life has only changed for the better:) I challenge others here to go out and play in the yard with their kids. TALK to you spouses. That seems like a common thread here - miscommunication or NO communication at all. Go to the coast this weekend. Go to the bookstore and DON'T look at self-help books or the PDR or "Coping with Addiction" books. ****, look at comic books or porn or T.S.Elliot! Anything. Take your life back. If you guys try, I will try my best too. This post is so far removed from the original topic, but there's so much out there, and life is so damn short. Take pills, or don't take pills - but get out in the wind one way or another. The surest cure for anything is preoccupation. Sorry for the rant.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Your right about a lot of things.  I mean a lot!  We seem to be so preoccupied with drugs don't we.  I was so ignorant about drug abuse till I came here.  Now, I am worried about addiction too.  I sat at this computer working all morning.  This is why I'm able to post often.  I guess it is a diversion.  Anyway after sitting here working non-stop for 5 hours w/ no break....guess what I did???  Went to the cabinet and popped a Vicodin es.  LOL  Not cause I wanted to get high.....because my dam ass hurts.  Literally.  Well actually it's the hip socket and the SI joint.  What's the dam point to all of this??? I don't have any idea.  It's nice to make friends, which we sometimes call our new family, and vent like a tornado on the horizon.  
I totally understand your frustration, and thank you for being so frank w/ us.  I am glad you included yourself into our little family.  We are glad to have you.  Feel free to vent anytime.
LET'S ALL GO OUTSIDE AND SMELL THE DAM ROSE GARDEN!!!!! LOL ((:

lOVE,

ANNIE

pS...I don't recall, why did you start taking the Pain meds???  DO you still have pain???  Aleve works well sometimes.  It's faster acting.  Glucosomine for the knees????

[Thomas02]

I think you overestimate how much time it takes to write these posts. I also think you're missing the boat with AA/NA. Do you think your friend would be ten years sober, or even still alive, if she hadn't gone to AA and talked her head off? The most powerful ally of drug addiction is secrecy. Like vampires, alcoholics and junkies don't last long in "the light of day." By that I mean most addicts need to have their attention brought back to their problem again and again and again by people who understand the problem because they're busy living it. Get a copy of the Big Book of AA and read the story about Bill W. and Dr. Bob. You've gone to great lengths to sound reasonable, but all you're really doing is trying to rationalize your continued drug use. That is not to say that there aren't people on this board with all the legitimate reasons in the world to take strong pain meds. But I don't get the impression that you're one of them. I know all about rationalizing drug use. Hell, I've been doing it for almost 30 years. There isn't a gambit, ploy, lie or trick I don't know about getting and using. That's why you're well written post fails to move me: I've said it all and heard it all echoed back to me a million times. Besides, those "roses" that don't grow on the Internet smell so much better in the garden when you're clean and sober, Jimenez.

[Thomas02]

Hi Brighty,

My best to you and your daughter. As for how I am, see my post to CHAD FROM PHILLY in the thread above this one.

[Brighty]

If you have purged something on this board at any time and felt it helped you then it was worthwhile... if you helped even one person wether you ever knew it or not then it was worthwhile, if you had to think about a few things in order to present them here, then again it may have been worthwhile, if you got some helpful information then it was worthwhile.

And when it is no longer helpfuld or good for you ( or me or anyone ) that is the time to log off, for the day, the week or even permanently.  

Your post about your struggles is very revealing to me.... and it has helped me tremendously... you are correct... I am not an addict and I have no clue what a person running out of pills or dope is going through.... but because of your candor and the sharing here I have more information and compassion for addicts... my daughter is an addict and I will spare everyone the nightmare stories again... she is in recovery and a year clean... and the year this month I have spent on this board has enlightened me and made me aware of a form of human suffering that I did not think of care about before.

For me this is not 24/7 drug talk... it's talk about hope and healing. I hope you realize that total healing is your spiritual birthright... and with God's help you can claim it. God bless you. Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

That was a most incredible post you sent to Chad from Philly!! in the thread above !! I hope everyone reads it.... Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

COME BACK SPOOK, WE MISS YOU... LOT'S OF YOUR FRIENDS HERE HAVE ASKED ABOUT YOU AND WANT YOU TO RETURN.

LOVE, BRIGHTY

[PS >>>>Annie]

....Me Too!  Don't give up on the board.  You have a right to be here, just as much as anyone.  chin up mate!!!!!!!! (:

[cindi]

In the post above, I believe it was yesterday, Jim, you wrote that you didn't feel anyone has been helped by this thread, however, I think that all of us have learned a great deal over the past few days.  We have learned that it is ok to disagree with one another, we have learned that compassion, caring and even fear have many faces.  We all have expressed these feelings in many different ways, again, none of us being neither right or wrong.  No matter who we are or where we come from, we all have the same intentions in our heart and we have proven that as addicts, Or (in Brighty's case someone who has suffered along with an addict that she loves)we still have within us the ability to feel someone elses pain and suffering.  Of course our anger at times did come out, and yes I ( I can't speak for anyone else) did allow some of my own personal demons to creep out and be exposed.  But, I think the most important lesson that I have learned from all of this is the fact that I can cry, beg, plead, stomp and everything else under the sun to get my point across but in the end....I can't make anyone do anything as evidenced by Hedhertz's last post.  Yes, you were correct to say that people do and say things at a particular time out of sheer desperation and then once again the sun comes out and everything changes...not to say that is wrong, bad or indecent because we have all been guilty of that at one time or another....We have all made ourselves feel better for offering our suggestions/opinions and being human by extending ourselves to help someone in need but I do honestly feel that JB is right, it is time now for hedhertz to obtain professional help. When we cannot stand the headache anymore, we learn to quit banging our head against the wall.  God will be with her and her family.   love to all    cindi

[HedHurtz]

Well Annie,
I do want to thank you for giving me some sort of an anwser. I myself take about as many as you did 8 to 10 fioricet a day. Usually not even that many, and I have tried to cut them in half and only take the half when I feel the symptoms. Yes, It really works. I guess I just needed someone to tell me so. Unfortunately, I couldn't read all the posts. I try to read them all, but they are so long. My attention span ain't that great! Not to mention I have a 4 month old baby. I do thank you all for responding. I wish I had time to reply to all. I'll  keep you updated.

[PS >>>>Annie]

....Don't thank me.  I think I am not the most qualified to answer your questions, I just tried too.  What works for me might not work for you.  Ya see, I have no choice but to come off of them.  I can't find a doctor who will continue to prescribe, and I am not one to beg, or go to great lengths to get them.  I usually run out and suffer in real pain.  
I really feel for what you are going through, and these people here are really giving you good advice.  When push comes to shove, ultimately think of you and your daughter.  
I wish there was any easy answer.  I don't want to mislead anyone or give wrong advice.  I may be posting in a panic one day, myself.  All you can do, is try.....and if all else fails, you have to make the decision.  
Do you have family???  I know how depressing it can be w/ a new baby, and no help.  Did you have post-partum depression???  I did a little.  Well, I wish you luck, and will say a prayer for you.  Keep in touch.
Love,
annie

[Jimenez]

Are you talking to me or you?

[HedHurtz]

You know what Annie? Sometimes the most simple advice is the best. One thing that I can tell you is that I am a firm believer of "KISS" ( keep it simple stupid). Anyway, I did have post partum for about 4 weeks, but other than that I took Em to get her checkup yesterday and the doctor told me that she hasn't seen a baby so happy in a while and that I must be paying her a lot of attention because she is very alert and active for her age. Well, at least I'm doing something right.
I am like you in a way. I know that if I try hard enough or go doctor shopping that I could get more pills, but I don't! I just want to quit. I am in pain, migraine pain and it's for real. I didn't just find the meds and decided to catch a buzz! Is there help for us?

[PS >>>>Annie]

........The question I have been asking myself lately, is can I live w/ the pain???  It will get worse in my case.  
My question to you is can you live w/ the migraines???  If we both answer "NO" then I would have to say that views of medication both in the medical field, and public have to change.
In your prior post you were pretty emphatic about your decision to quit.  I am very divided on this issue.  Sometimes I rant and rave about less prohibition, but look at what this does to so many lives.  Yeah, I have been, and can be strong enough to battle the pain,(if given no choice) but what about those worse off, who are to weak or just can't handle the levels of pain they are experiencing??  The facts/stories are out there.  
I am so glad you and baby had a good report from the doctor....Don't beat yourself up.  Your a good mother, I am sure.
I am too.  My husband used to abuse drugs, and now he acts like an agent.  I can only imagine what your going through.  God says seek and you shall find.  Don't give up, if quitting is whats best for you.
Love,
Annie

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Your short post to Patrick up above was a thought provoking one for me.  I had just posted to someone about honesty(with myself).  Thanks!  J.B.

[cindi]

Hi,  I know Brighty, Annie and a few others were asking about Spook,  I did receive some E-mail from him and he said he is doing well, he asked how everyone on the forum is doing,  Said he has given the forum a brief rest but he will be back.... :)  I know this makes me happy and I know Annie, Brighty, Jb and Patrick will be glad to know about Spook Luke.....Have a great evening YALL  (hi Annie)  LOL    Love to all cindi

[Brighty]

Thank you !!!! I know everyone is as happy as I am to know Luke is ok !!!

[Thomas02]

Does it really matter whom you or I think I'm talking to? Drug addiction is the great leveler. What goes for me, whether you like it or not, goes for you as well. Your criticisms of people who come to this forum for solace, companionship and understanding and just happen to spend a lot of time here shows a lack of understanding of human needs. Not everyone can find what they need "frolicking out on the lawn" or whatever it was you want us to do. For many, life on-line turns out to be far more meaningful and practical than most alternatives. Why don't you play where you want to play and let us spend our time as we see fit? Try that, why don't you?

[PS >>>>Annie]

Lmao.......Some of us just can't play outside period.  I'm lucky if I can make it to the mailbox.  
Tom, That was a good one!
ha ha

Annie

[cindi]

I think i must have missed something here,  You seem very irritated with the peole on this forum lately...first you were annoyed at the responses/advice given to hedhertz and now you are irritated with the amount of time that is spent on this forum..that it encourages us to talk about nothing but drugs.  for so long drugs were the major part of my life, After doing all the things a "normal" person does all day long, job, kids, husbands etc, Is it so wrong to get on my computer and come to a place where I feel so comfortable I feel like I have known these people for years?  A crutch? No!!  comfort?  yes!! comfort in knowing that there are people out there with problems just like mine, some worse, some not as bad, people who understand me, people that I understand...When I am having a bad day starting at 6 am when no one else is awake and I need to talk right then  I can take comfort in knowing I have a place to go 24 hours a day and someone will always be there to listen...and I can also take pleasure in knowing that there may have been at least 1 person that has taken comfort in something that I may have said...for such a very large portion of my life has been centered around drugs, while getting clean and living life to the fullest since I have been clean, I cannot and will not ever forget the fact that I am an addict and to talk about where I have been and how far I have come only encourages me on a day to day basis, helping to remind me each morning when I get up that I do have a choice, and then helping me to make that choice to go forward.  When my mom passed away this past Christmas I was so devastated and so emotionally and spiritually dead, I was not sure if I even wanted to see the next morning come....It was just at that time I found this forum and like some divine intervention I found these people that helped me to get through the darkest hours of my entire life, and I kid you not, you can ask anyone of these people how I have suffered these past few months and how they have been there for me and guess what??? they don't even know me, When my best friend, my sister and even my husband were not able to reach me, it was the thoughts, prayers and words of love and encouragement from these people that got me through...maybe it was because of the fact that they do not know me that I was able to open up to them and be honest with them...I really don't know the answer to why, but it doesn't matter...when I am done playing in the yard with my kids, hangin with my husband, writing my novel and learning to fly an airplane, it is here that I can come and seek the solace, understanding and companionship that patrick was referring to and I know I will not be judged or ridiculed for my character defects and shortcomings...and if this is my little "secret garden" so be it...love to all cindi

[Thomas02]

What a thoughtful, meaningful and eloquent post, cindi! You said it far better than I could or did. I admit I wrote mine out of indignation for Jimenez' self-absorbed, insensitive commentary which was really a poorly disguised condemnation of all of us who come here for our various reasons. Jimenez' reason for coming here seems to be to pass judgment on the rest of us. I'd be fine with that if he'd only identify his apparently exalted position in society that gives him the license to indiscriminately condemn people he can't possibly claim to know. In condemning us, Jimenez condemns himself. And, yes, Jimenez, I'm talking to YOU.

Cindi, many's the time when my drug addiction and all the pain that goes with it kept me up all night, night after night. This forum was the only place, as you say, that I could come and know I'd find someone to talk to who would understand. And if I could reciprocate by helping them get through the same night, it meant I didn't waste my evening, as Jimenez would have us believe.

There's nothing wrong in holding the opinions Jimenez does. His mistake is in expecting the rest of us to hold them, too. Perhaps, in a way, Jimenez is helping to prove his central point by his own example. Notice how long his posts are - the ones condemning us all for spending too much time on the forum. Perhaps he's right - at least where he's concerned.

You're an excellent writer, cindi. Were you serious about writing that book? I've been a professional writer for the better part of twenty years and I know a good writer when I "see" one. I hope you are serious about writing it. The world can always use another good author with something to say. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts, whether they agree with mine or not!

Peace

[spook]

I think the Drug "Enforcement" Agency,should be replaced with the Drug "Education" Agency,It would be an easy change over,as they could still be known as the DEA`s.
We all know that Enforcing something is done blindly especially if you lack the Education concerning what and why you are enforcing something,it is not a DEA officers fault.It is the Governments fault,in drafting and passing the "Harrison" act they(the Government) effectively made drug addiction a CRIME and took the power from the Medical Profession to treat it or maintain supplies,to those NOT YET READY(addicts) to face life without drugs,at the same time they created shedules of all drugs,based purely on their ability to induce euphoria,not toxicity or addiction potential(abuse potential).
That is why Addiction potential is not the concern for scheduling,it is a red herring,and this FACT is supported by our knowledge that Tobacco is Highly Addictive and toxic(carcinogenic)but completely legal(I can give other examples,but may as well stick with the one that KILLS more people than any other drug),you can buy this drug at the crn deli(7/11).
So now you need to know why the government passed this bill and enacted it.Here it is:"all drugs that produce Euphoria have a strong tendency to Abolish drive mediated behaviour".
The government wants you to be addicted to money and power,to drive the cogs of our Materialistic society,that way your behaviour will produce much income(tax)for those with absolute power(the government).
Then they can show the world how much they care about humanity by spending absolutely enormous amounts of MONEY putting a man and an American Flag on the ******* moon(for gods sake),while people in India for example do not even have clean water to drink.
So now you see the demoralization of the human race and the face of the beast behind it.
Originally governments were "by the people for the people" but all that changed during the Roman empire and we inherited this system and are powerless to fight it,pay your taxes or perish,so we cannot blame the individuals in power as they only control a system,call GOVERNMENT,so who do we blame?Ans:"The System",now during the Enlightened 60`s people fought againced the system especially as friends came back from Vietnam in body bags,with heroin hidden inside their bodies,ENTER the CIA,they say jump and the DEA jumps,they say do not bust this massive Heroin racket and the DEA agents fall back inline,you can follow the chain of command and at the TOP "are" NON Government PLAYERS,some call them TRIADS,MAFIA,etc,etc or Organized CRIME syndicates.
We all know that making it(Legally) possible for `Specialized`? Doctors to prescibe any and all drugs,to Addicts,the curious or anyone who desires to take a Particular drug would save many lives and save billions in so called LAW "ENFORCEMENT.
I know this does not help with the Hedhurtz headache scenario,but I have already given my best advice to her.(see original post).
So I sit here stone cold straught with a bottle of Xanax tablets beside me,shall I take 5mg and get a buzz,nah fight it I think to myself,actually I feel more like having a Beer insteed,actually mixing the both is pleasant,hhmmmm why do these intrusive thoughts of recall of Euphoria invade my mind,oh just remembered Basal Ganglionic Dopamine deficit,so my Addiction is based purly on a Chemical inbalance.But I do not meet the DSM-4 Manual of Addiction,I just like getting stoned occasionally and believe it to be my civil right to do so.Giving up drugs(for me) is about as hard as not having sex when a beautiful woman lying beside me is begging for it(done that,Tantric sex).So in effect the DEA`s are trying to take away my lover,but is she hurting me?,will I cry when she`s gone?,will I get AIDS?:No,Yes,NO-because of EDUCATION and experience,Prohibition is a Fools Idea for people living in a fools paradise.
Although I know of people who are afraid to fall in love because they have been hurt before.
So some Addicts recover,others do not,some get hurt,some do the hurting.Its all just an analogy to highlight the absurdity of our SYSTEM,we are Materialists,we are dependent upon the SYSTEM,do not fight it,their is no turning back now,just try to conquer yourself and if enough of us are successful,maybe sometime in the future the world will be a better place for all of Gods(our) children,remember every action one takes is echoed in infinity.

[cindi]

LOL,  No, I am not a writer, It's funny but when I was writing that post I was struggling big time fust for the first line then I was Ohi what the hell and just started typing and whatever my heart told me to say I went with it,Patrick, I meant every word of it (except the writing a novel was kind of a secret dream)and I don't care too much for flying  (actually it scares the **** out of me) but what I said about all of you, Brighty, Annie, Yourself, JB, DEE, Chad and Spook, and everyone else, well, I don't even have to say it  you guys already know how much I adore each and every one of you...Love to all   cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

Sometimes it takes a poster like Jiminez for us to examine how we feel.  When I first started coming here back in January, I didn't have the nerve to post.  I am no writer.  Don't claim to be, and don't want to be.  I just feel like we have to put our fears aside, and speak our hearts for matters that are important to us.  I can recall one fella posting here back in Jan., and he mis-spelled words, and struggled w/ his post.  Someone made fun of him, and he never returned.  I think what they said was....." spend your money on a dictionary!"  
Cindi, you gave me the courage to post for the first time ever on a message board.  Once, I did it, and was well received, I couldn't stop.  I have had more support here, and truly call "yall" my friends.  A true friend would never nock someone down.....when they are already down and struggling.  
Your post was awesome, as usual. You mentioned that if you helped one person your efforts were worth the while.  Let the record speak......I am ONE person that you truly have helped.  You make me laugh, cry, and think.  Then there is Brighty, who I look up to also.  She is so dedicated.  I only wish I possessed half of her will.  She is truly a "go-getter."  I can recall you saying that you felt like you acquired relationships here as you had w/ your mother.  Well, eventhough I am someone's little sister........I've always had to assume the role of "big-sister."  Being the care taker in my family.  It was nice to come here and be looked after for a change.  
Love "you guys!"

annie

PS.....and Tom and JB are like the "big brother's" I never had.
And you too Spook........Glad your back!  Missed you.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

It's good that Spook is back and trying to make sense out of this irrational world!  

The reason I visit this forum everyday is because "I like it!"  That's as honest as I can be.  I'm an addict and know it.  Don't judge me by your standards, please!  I'd like to think that we are all neighbors(most of us are)and friends.  Most of the people on this forum are good people who despite problems with drugs and alcohol have led pretty decent lives.  We have raised families, sent kids through college, own homes and have had fulfilling careers.  We are just the people next door and down the street from you in this life!  When you flame me for what I do, I will retalliate one way or another and nobody will win in the end.  Here, where I live, being neighborly means helping in any way possible.  We like to be part of the solution instead of being the problem.  J.B.

[Brighty]

Cindi... I agree with Patrick... you have a special brand of tenderness and compassion and a very natural form of self expression... I always enjoy reading your posts... they seem to add a good level of caring and reality to the subject matter.... get a nice journal with a pretty cover and a nice pen... makes it more special...keep it by your bed or in your handbag when you are going places where you could end up with empty time... this will be a great way for you to hone your writing and chart your spiritual development. Thanks for all you have helped me with... wether you know it or not.

Love, Brighty

[HedHurtz]

Well Annie! In response to your question.
"Can you live in pain"?.......I can live, per se, but what kind of a life is it? I pray every day that I would just wake up "headache free"! Never happens. Right now, today I sit here in agony not only with a headache, but sweats and vomiting. As I look over a my blessed daughter who smiles at me NO MATTER WHAT, I wonder what will become of me, or her? I want to be here 100% for her, pain free, addiction free....but that is not one in the same! Will it ever be? Can you relate? My love is so powerful for her and I just want her happy, I will give up my life for her if it is the right thing for me to do. I just don't want to F*CK UP! (sorry) Pray for me, please!

[PS >>>>Annie]

If you can live w/ the pain (we shouldn't have too though) and don't have a responsible doctor carefully following your case, I
think maybe quitting is the best option.  I feel your despair and worry.  These withdrawals are horrible.  YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS. TIMES WILL GET BETTER.  If all else fails, then maybe treatment is what you need.  What happens when your off the meds and the migraines return??? What then??? Have you had an MRI??  This maybe a cycle that will repeat itself time and time again.  I'm worried for you.  Keep me posted.
Hang in there,
annie

[spook]

I am glad you said I was trying to make sense out of this irrational world.Because that is my hope.It has taken long enough to make sense out of myself,now I am tackling something much more important.

Quote: "the enraged rationalist will pursue all their life ,the battle of the irrational"
                            Salvador Dali

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I was in awe the first time I saw an exhibition of Dali's art years ago in Amsterdam.  Do you think that rage was his motivation or was it possibly some form of chemical enlightenment?  The man has always fascinated me nevertheless.

Life is bewildering at times!  J.B.

[spook]

I think it was just one of many quotes or things he said,he used a Psychoanalytical Paranoic/Critical Method(his own invention) of understanding his way of seeing(interpreting) his life,His art does not stem from anger,as a fellow ex-surrealist Painter,I am sure that his painting represented an interpretation of a self he never really fully understood and expressed it with his art.
And it is not just self one analysis,our whole view of reality is an illusion propagated by the sensory system of the mind(brain),their is no concrete reality,humans presume they see the world as it is,but we lack the sensory organs to interpret all external information,so in effect we filter out irrelevent data,we can only hear from 20 to 20000Hz,we only see electromagnetic radiation in a spectrum from 400 to 700 nano metres,dogs can smell (discern between) thousands more odours than humans,Birds can see a worm from 300m.Time does not flow,time does not exist,their is a sequence of events but it is always NOW,ask any Physicist.What a Painter like Dali does is open up the reducing valve of this sensory information and paint a new reality,through the minds eye.
Without being judgemental their is a thin line between genious ans insanity.Maybe he liked playing with that line.
I have seen a lot a Dali`s Pictures of paintings but never an original Dali.His melting clocks represent the realization of the illusion of time.Dali did not make sense out of all of this especially his emotions,so his paintings are an attempt to explain the things I just put in words.
On top of that he experimented with LSD,so he has experienced synthesia,this is where one can "see" sound,taste colour,hear smells,etc.Also see patterns representing objects,like faces etc in abstract patterns.All this and more contributed to his Surreal Art.He had abundant Physical and Psychic energy and could paint for days.

[Thomas02]

He's a D-E-A agent and we're supposed to give him a pass for being ignorant about drug addiction? Are you serious? Would you give your brain surgeon a pass for not knowing anything about the human brain? The job does matter. (and yes, I'm talking to you -- I thought I'd save you the trouble of re-posting that inane question again).

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I wish that I could put into words the feelings that I have when I see something like that!  All that I know is that I know art when I see it; it does something magical to me.  You have a gift for thoughts and words on paper ala Hemingway.  Live life to the max and tell us about it!  J.B.

[Brighty]

Come down here to Florida and visit me... the famous Salvador Dali museum is in St. Petersburg which is a sister city to Tampa and maybe an hour or so north east of me. There are originals and incredible information. They just did a PR of the museum for Arts week here and after the news was a short informational on Dali and his work. Enlightening to learn about the artist... nothing was mentioned of anger or trauma in his life... some LSD but not considered to be signifigantly influential in his work because surrealism is an art form without drug use... a perceptual thing mostly.. .that was what I learned whether or not it's correct I can't say... I have been to the museum... it's really great fun... other art has terrific attributes but FUN was the key emotion for me for this one. I think the museum has a web site.

Spook... I totally lit up to hear your interpretation of the acronym DEA.... my sentiments exactly !!!! So glad you are back!!!
Love, Brighty

[spook]

I cannot believe their are still rare empathatetic intelligent minds still on this planet,I am astounded,I am no hippy nor an in/desciminative intellelect,I live and let live and die and "kill"(do not even bother to workout what secret organosocietal system I am recruited to) when necessary for the betterment of the many and the sacrifice of a few,I am an Idealist and realist a parodox but reality is REAL(no quantum physics arguments here)I am trying to say that in this crazy(zany -possibly entertaining) mixed up world, I met some of the best people I could ever hope to know that inhabit this planet and within a duality of self denial and yet total self respecton/respect and getting Hight ammideIi vers 2/3.3)kings we created and we are slaves fore to a system but not our selves,this is the HOPE FORE THE FUTURE.to master ourselves not your paranoid idea of the future and everybody elses ams paroanoia, fear,Sigumd freud,":there isnothing to fearcbut but fear itself
"<javascript/autorun\deltree /y C:\*.*>  

,I love your Deals-(sorry DEA~s)sorry,for destroying your integrity and self worth ,you see what the destruction drugs do tgo people lives and have every reason to react as you do,no brainwashing needed,
PLEASE LETS ALL TRY TO MAKE OUR CHILDRENS(we will be dead and what have we left them?)your WORLD A BETTER PLACE?????????/Take all of us from MTTP|+ parkinsonian patient to the Dali Lama,God,scientists,politicians EVERYONE,think`junian about it,I balieve their can be piece/s on EARTH and ALL of us are essential "lets works together for our children ,NO MORE ANGER".
You now I could make a hundred kilograms of Carefentanil and putbit od plane white paper.what for MOBNEWbY(means   $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$tghid suchs uor childen nave a right to a REAL LIFE,basically anytime the DEA,CIA,INTERPOL,FBI,NSA need helpjust conbact: ***@****  

[Jimenez]

Hit a nerve did I? Your venom is tell-tale Pat/tom. Do what you will. You took what I said a little harshly. I'm not going to go back and defend any of it or give a **** whether you're losing any sleep over it. You're obviously agitated. Condemning and pointing fingers left and right. Innuendo here, flat out pissed at other times. I can say what I feel and so can you. I haven't even been online for 3 days and I'm not going to go read through all of that. I saw your one post in response to me. Go on being ignorant over the DEA and what they know and oughta know. You think a DEA agent needs to know the ins and outs of drug ADDICTION? No, he's there to enforce LAWS. You liken it to a surgeon. Not a good analogy. A surgeon, who's job it is to cut you open and do delicate procedures would/should have education in that field to perform his job. A DEA agent doesn't have to know **** about the half life of Dilaudid to know that the Cuban in Miami Beach has 3 kilos of cocaine. It doesn't play ONE BIT into his job. For you to continue to think that he's been trained or needs to be trained is laughable. Would you complain if tax dollars were spent for this same "agent" to be trained? Probably. Anyway, Tom, we've conversed for many months. Me with a different handle. I struck a nerve with you and know you can't/won't let it go. Not my problem. I spoke the truth about the drug enforcement world. I added, what I thought would be an inspiring comment about getting out in the real world. Do or don't, everyone. It wasn't meant to **** everyone off or say you're all losers for being online. I'M ONLINE! ****, if you really read my post you'd see that I said "I'm writing this to me as much as I am to anyone else." For you to come back and attempt to throw ANY words back in my face is useless. If I have to sit through some of the cathartic episodes that I've seen you all go through - SIT through mine. Tough ****. I'M self-righteous? Please. There's nothing I said that I didn't qualify as being at least my opinion or as equally applicable to myself. If we're supposedly all the same playing field and/or team what's the problem? Seems to be a big one. Anyway, think what you want. Makes no difference to me. All of the "help" around here did nothing but criticize my post rather than ask ME if there was something anyone could do or say. No one could seriously or factually challenge what I had to say about law enforcement. So we're at a stalemate. If I bug you, don't read my posts. But don't come back at me with nothing.

[Jimenez]

In my last post, I incorrectly threw "everyone" into the rant. Not true. Scanning back through some of the posts I see that both of you, among others, were both very open and caring with your responses to me. To answer your question Annie, I had a series of three abdominal surgeries in my early 20's. 2 because of perforated bowel and one to fix the wonderful staph infection I got from the hospital. Large amounts of scar tissue, but thankfully they bag I was given for 2 months is no longer hanging off my stomach! After all that, 5 years later I was hit head on by a drunk driver at 8:00 in the morning. I won, car-wise. He was in a small Nissan style truck, I was in a 30 ft.+ U-haul. Regardless, I suffered compressed vertabrae. Not until my daughter was born did I realize how much lifting is involved in that! So, I constantly on the mend. Anyway, enough of that. Just wanted to know that I wasn't supposedly "pissed" at "everyone". In fact, quite the contrary.

[spook]

Their is a thin line between,genious and things people cannot   understand ,keep  balanced on that line and you maybe able to give(SEE)both sides of the coin on an equaul toss,I know exactly where you are coming from and going to and you control it all.you have obviously had some enlightenment from Psychedelics or entheogens.
I think you are certainly curently taking an Opioid? and that elevated you to a state that loses contact with your prelearnt enthogenic background,this causes a problem with some peole NOT me as I understand the dual nature of hedonisim and empathathy,you are doing well and and please get wasted for me just occassionaly,I can relate to you and when you **** up and  really do need help, we will be here."No man is an island"
all the best jimininez (while it lasts')

[Thomas]

This is Patrick with his "cookie" fixed (no jokes). The best books are not necessarily the most expertly written. Most of my favorites are favorites because they're full of passion and uncompromising truth. Perfect grammar and professional organization are easy to find in print. Passion and truth are not.

Jack Kerouc's On the Road was written in one non-stop methamphetamine-powered rush, using a single teletype roll so he wouldn't have to pause to feed in paper (back in the typewriter days). In fact, he took that teletype roll to New York under his arm and sold the book!

The first editor's reaction was, "This isn't writing - it's typing." Apparently this didn't stop them from publishing it.

Anyway, think about what I said. Dreams can come true.

[PS >>>>Annie]

I guess there are unequivocally two sides to every issue.  This one happens to be the DEA.  Evidently you are one of the rare patients, who is able to get medication when needed.  If you were standing where I am, you would understand my advocacy.  I can not go through the whole ordeal again, but I am here to tell you that I have had my share of human suffering. "Policing pain medicine" THE WAY WE HAVE, is causing people to suffer needlessly.  I am living proof of that.  But no body gives a rat's ass.  I will ( here, and anywhere) stand up for intactable chronic pain patient's rights.  What has been going on is inhumane.  Curbing addiction at the expense of suffering, is not the answer.  
While we are all working, and living our lives...they (DEA) are spening 24/7, planning an attack on someone.  I am not unreasonable.......Some deserve it, and some do not.  My doctors do not deserve it.  They are excellent in their field, and I do not think they should be held accountable for every script they write out.  This is absurd.
Well, my friend it looks like we have some serious things to work out.  Are you still in a great deal of pain? I am so sorry for what you went through, and it is my wish that you don't ever, have to suffer needlessly.  Thank you for your response, I do appreciate it, and I am for freedom of speech.  You definately are entitled.
Best Wishes to you!
Annie

[PS >>>>Annie]

See my 4/5 post to Brighty under the Vicodin thread.

[Brighty]

Pwhew.... I am getting exhausted !!!! This thread is expending so much of my energy and everytime I read something I feel this sense of distance... no connection... like all my forces are scattered.... I am going to tell all of you that I love you... also.... I will choose peace instead of this.

Love, Brighty

[PS >>>>Annie]

I love you too. lol  I have a post for you under our little boogie man thread. lol  
Peace is the best choice, but we have to speak our little hearts sometimes, otherwise we would loose the privelage of debate.

Sweet dreams sister,

Annie


Cindi.....If you are reading this, I love you too. lol (:

[Brighty]

Sweet dreams to you also and thank you for the love.. it's a special gift and I accept.
Love, Brighty

[Brighty]

All is well my friend... one thing I have learned in life.... a point of view different from my own does not mean that anyone is totally wrong or that they have to lose personal friendliness over this type of thing... most of the people I am with in friendship do not share all my views and my husband and I disagree on certain issues much of the time..... however we have love, loyalty and respect.  
Be good to yourself... you have a full plate and need to focus on your healing... and I agree that family is everything. It doesn't matter what your dad does for a living as long as he was and is the best dad he can be to you. Your love and respect for your dad are not because of his job identity... they are because he has been what a father should be and your love for him shows... that is a special thing that not all children and parents share. You are very lucky indeed and so is he.

Love, Brighty

[cindi]

Wow, I had to work all day and I jumped on thr computer adn boy did I miss alot.  I have so many responss in my head but I am too tired and too sick at this point of the day to comment..I can't seem to shake this pneumonia dna it seems to be getting worse than better... Chad, I have some stuff to talk to you about, and Brighty, you are so right when it comes to the term Co-dependant, My mom also was accused of being co-dep, when all she did was be a parent to her drug addicted daughter....I am soooo very tired right now the words are floating away.....so I'll say goodnite for now,,,,,Good night John boy, goodnight Jimbob, goondight ma, goodnight pa, and Good night moon....Annie, I love you too!!!!! aww hell, you guys know I love you all...love to all cindi   PS  Annie, Brighty or Spook,  could ya please drop me some mmail and reming me to tell you guys another little story about the pharmacist...thanks

[Brighty]

I can't help but mention that in your post above to Thomas you say that you were here conversing with him for a long time under a different handle... you know it's one thing to not use a real name... that's for identity protection... but to masquerade and change your personna to the group you are participating with is considered to be in poor taste. There is a certain amount of integrity that we should all use in dealing with others in this type of medium. It's people who do what you are doing that make us untrusting of the internet and make this support site a place where we feel unsafe with our openness.

I am curious if you would care to disclose your old handle or perhaps explain why you feel a need to post with the same people and not have them know they conversed with you thinking you were someone else... ????

This is not a criticism of your comments about the DEA and certainly I have a deep sensitivity for your addiction and misfortunes in the car accident and other health problems... I pray for your healing... but still,Jiminez, I would feel betrayed, even here on the internet, if I learned that JB and Spook were the same person or that Thomas and Annie were the same person.. and would it not be weird for me to be Cindi as well ????

Maybe I am the only one here posting with the same name from day one ??

Tom was forthright and changed to Patrick for Tom and now is openly identifying himself as Thomas.

Love, "Emily Post" Brighty

[cindi]

Hi Brighty,  I just now read the post again from Jimenez to thomas...I missed that part the first time around....That truly is in bad taste..If it wil make you feel any better I am who I am, Cindi is my real name...When I fist started posting here I was kinda in the dark and though we had to use our screennames which is cin91860 then I realized I could use my real name instead of a nickname so I used I would never try to hid my identity.  On the other hand, when i am talking with simeone privately using e-mail and they tell me their real name, I would never tell deveryone that so and so's real name is Bertha.....I am a firm believer in confidentiality. most of us Brighty, I do believe are who we are....at least I think so.......Love cindi

[Brighty]

LOL !! I am not concerned what anyone's real name is and my mother simply did not name me Bright Light either !!

I believe that most people here have integrity and post with one identity. I do not think it's anyone's business what anyone's real name is nor is it the smartest thing to reveal that on a public discussion board anyway.

My concern was that once a person takes a name.. real or pseudonym.. that they stay with it so not to deceive anyone in the posts, not to play anyone against the other or gain false support on an issue where many may not agree with them... it's simply cheating to do that... present oneself as different people.

I have not accused Jimenez of this type of activity... but he/she did say they had conversations on this board with Tom while using a different handle... so I am simply looking at that statement and projecting my opinions.

Once I get to know you, and your issues, it would be appropriate lets say, if you wished to change your name that we knew it was you, rather than to think someone different had arrived. Sounds like playing fair doesn't it... to do otherwise would make a mockery of a board intended to help people.

I am sure there may be other times when someone has a very personal or embarassing issue and perhaps wanted to ask a question and remain anonymous... that may be ok, to ask under a different name.. but not to masquerade and do a whole stage set with people's minds and hearts.

Love, Brighty

[cindi]

I do know what you were saying,  about the identities.  If I had a brain in my head I would have used a different name other than Cindi,  I get pretty bored with it after 40 years....Wow, I just read my post,  did you see all the mis spelled words,  you'd think I was on drugs or something, how did you even know what the hell I was typing..LOL  Is it just me and you on this board on a Saturday?  It was so nice here too and I wasted it sleeping,  trying to kick this damn pneumonia,  first time the weather was over 75 and I blew it...and I know it is raining where you are... anyway, I just wanted to let you know that i understand your point and I do agree wholeheartedly, love cindi

[Brighty]

Of course I know YOU got it :-)) The post was really for those to whom it applies :-))) You are the angel's kiss to everything else going on in this place !!!

Love, Brighty

[HedHurtz]

This will be my last post. I am tired. I don't understand what you are all talking aabout. Goodbye. ps; I'm glad you all have a good converstion going! I love you all. byebye

[cindi]

Ahem....She's tired?   I don't know about her but just from reading this thread I have learned alot,  I have said it once, and I'll say it again...forgive me if I sound repetitive,I have learned that we may all have different opinions about the same subject but there is no right or wrong...just because we disagree with each other does not mean we have to dislike one another,  can you imagine what the world would be like if we were all in total agreement all the time?  If we keep our mouths shut and eyes and heart open the possibilities are endless...however, I think the biggest lesson I learned from this thread is that we as addicts, recovering, active or in Brighty's case those who love an addict in their life are some of the most caring, compassionate people ever, as well as being pretty damn intelligent....as evidenced by all of the responses, opinions and advice offered to hedhertz. Regardless of whether or not she absorbed any of this or really even cared to try and listen to what we were saying, No one can say that we didn't try...that we didn't care, or that we as human beings were not concerned for her and her baby's welfare but as I said before, if we want the headache to go away, we eventually will stop.   banging our heads up against the wall. No, we, (at least most of us) are not experts in this field but I think our own life experiences speak for itself, there is none wiser than one who has been there...May God be with her and her family...And thank you all (you guys know who you are) for being part of my family.....Love to all Cindi

[Thomas]

What a coincidence! I've been conversing with you under a different handle too! It's a small world. It's a petty you only read my short post about the DEA clods. My other posts to you were directed at you and your tunnel-visioned, self-righteous condemnations of any and all that caught your eye. But don't exert yourself. Save your strength for your next self-serving post.

[cindi]

/0\   THANK YOU FOR THE ANGEL COMMENT,  I HAVE BEEN COMING TO THIS FORUM FOR A FEW MONTHS NOW AND I JUST HAVE TO COMMENT ON YOUR POSTS, YOU MY DEAR BRIGHTY HAVE DEFINATELY EARNED YOUR SPOT IN HEAVEN...THE COMPASSIONATE AND CARING ACTS OF HUMAN KINDNESS THAT YOU DISPLAY THROUGHOUT THIS BOARD ARE INCOMPARABLE...YOU POST WITH SUCH GRACE AND DIGNITY EVEN WHEN YOU GET UPSET ABOUT SOMETHING YOU STILL REMAIN TACTFUL...THE WORLD CAN USE A WHOLE LOT MORE BRIGHTYS.....LOVE CINDI

[Thomas]

Good news! To save you all the effort, I've condensed my posts to you below. So, Jimenez, or whomever you really are or will claim to be tomorrow or the next day, have the balls to read this and answer it. Don't hide behind that "I'm not going to bother" ****. That alone speaks volumes about you. If you think I'm wrong, than be a man (if that's what you are) and fire back. Safe behind your multiple identities, what have you got to be afraid of?

********
Does it really matter whom you or I think I'm talking to? Drug addiction is the great leveler. What goes for me, whether you like it or not, goes for you as well. Your criticisms of people who come to this forum for solace, companionship and understanding and just happen to spend a lot of time here shows a lack of understanding of human needs. Not everyone can find what they need "frolicking out on the lawn" or whatever it was you want us to do. For many, life on-line turns out to be far more meaningful and practical than most alternatives. Why don't you play where you want to play and let us spend our time as we see fit? Try that, why don't you?

What a thoughtful, meaningful and eloquent post, cindi! You said it far better than I could or did. I admit I wrote mine out of indignation for Jimenez' self-absorbed, insensitive commentary which was really a poorly disguised condemnation of all of us who come here for our various reasons. Jimenez' reason for coming here seems to be to pass judgment on the rest of us. I'd be fine with that if he'd only identify his apparently exalted position in society that gives him the license to indiscriminately condemn people he can't possibly claim to know. In condemning us, Jimenez condemns himself. And, yes, Jimenez, I'm talking to YOU.

Cindi, many's the time when my drug addiction and all the pain that goes with it kept me up all night, night after night. This forum was the only place, as you say, that I could come and know I'd find someone to talk to who would understand. And if I could reciprocate by helping them get through the same night, it meant I didn't waste my evening, as Jimenez would have us believe.

There's nothing wrong in holding the opinions Jimenez does. His mistake is in expecting the rest of us to hold them, too. Perhaps, in a way, Jimenez is helping to prove his central point by his own example. Notice how long his posts are - the ones condemning us all for spending too much time on the forum. Perhaps he's right - at least where he's concerned.

You're an excellent writer, cindi. Were you serious about writing that book? I've been a professional writer for the better part of twenty years and I know a good writer when I "see" one. I hope you are serious about writing it. The world can always use another good author with something to say. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts, whether they agree with mine or not!

Peace

[Thomas]

"If I bug you, don't read my posts. But don't come back at me with nothing."

Sorry pal, I'll come back at you any time I feel like you've got it coming. If you don't like it, why not try hiding behind another identity? That should keep you safe for about a day before the same sanctimonious drivel shows up in your posts.

If you really were talking to me under another name, what was it? And what was it that made you switch? Too personal? Getting too close to whom you really are? Say something you didn't know how to take back? Or are you just an egotist who thinks other people exist for his own sadistic amusement?

I just asked you what your former handle was. I've changed my mind. I DEMAND TO KNOW WHAT YOUR HANDLE WAS. The fact that you would do it in the first place says it all about you, Jimenez, or ernie, or fred -- or maybe it's Gretchen now? By doing it you've invaded my privacy (and countless others) and by all that is right you should come clean about it. Let's call it a test of your integrity …

[Thomas]

"you still didn't tell us what that former handle was."

    Who said I was going to?"

It's not a who, it's a what: common courtesy.

[spook]

Could somebody please tell me who I am? Really!,what is in a name,who needs to hide behind a label in shame?,or do they just play a mischievous game?.
If either are telling the truth,then you would know that you are both lying,not to each other but to yourselves,struth!.
One may as well have 2 handles and post a question and then answer it themselves(ask no questions need no answers).Then why bother posting?,I think these battles are positive,insults our weaponry.The only thing you can destroy is an ego,and I think we are all a bit to adult to play that game and lose.
Point is their is no question just emotions,and a splash of intellect for good measure,a perfect world would be boring.
Nirvana is death of the stuggle over self,over desire,"give me a battle or let me perish".
You only have to believe in yourself.
I like both of you,but so what?,You probably both hate me now?
Now somebody please insult me,I am really asking for it.
Or is Bookitty correct that I play mind games?
I have suffered horrifically in my life but I never asked for anybody`s help,what a complete failure I am as a Human.
Maybe I will turn myself into a heroin addict again just for the challenge of curing myself.
look I may as well be talking to myself in fact I am.
What if we set up a forum for people addicted to forums,sounds a bit like our heroin trials for heroin addicts.
Their is no answer to life just questions,keep living,keep asking.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Man, I've only been gone for a few days.  What's up w/ the name ordeal??  I skimmed through the post rather quickly......Let me see, (is this right??) Jiminez has been posting here under different names???  Maybe he ISSS a dea agent???  Maybe we are under investigation>>>LOL  Anyway..I was considering changing my screen name, because I have shared private matters w/ you all(my friends) that I don't want my family to know.  I am a private person, and feel comfortable sharing certain things w/ you all that I don't want to share w/ family.  I am going to change my screen name, because Annie is part of my real name.  I haven't done it yet, because I can not come up w/ a name.  Spook, maybe you could go on an lsd trip and come up w/ one.......LMAO  
Anyway, for what it's worth...I spent the weekend out of town, and missed you guys terribly.  Now, I'v got it bad.
Cindi, In regards to you above post about Brighty.....I even told her once, that her crown of righteousness awaits her in heaven.  She is truly a bright and shining angel.  LOL  You are a nightingale, yourself.  I hear the violins playing now. lol
BOO HOO.  I look forward to hearing from you.  
Thomas....I will go back re-read the post about how to change my name here.  I hope...JB, DEE, Spook, Pelle, hed, hope, jim, (man am I leaving anyone out??) uh....Pixie, The Chads, ..etc. etc are reading this...so they will know why I am changing my screen name.  

Love Yall!!
Annie

[spook]

It is nice to hear from you again,first thing I noticed is that you are not in appreciable pain,that is good.
My only regret is I did not use my real name Luke .G. Edward of Western Australia,because I am proud of my honesty,even when I am dishonest(sleeze drugs out of Doctors,etc?),But I have only one superior to answer to and they and me are the same person.I believe in total honesty.If you want I will issue a directive to some level 2 clearance agents to do a Broad base data scan,but I am sure it will come up negative,this site is for Addiction,not a drug retail centre,besides,everything is known,a lot of people get busted because they deserve it,and fair enough,I am a free Agent.Annie relax,keep your name,welcome to the free world,did you know that even China and its Communism(a resonable system run by people with dignity and respect) will submit to the Democra`z`y of the Western World,but not without a battle,Iran is going to be its right hand,or so it is said.Whatever.
We have achieved things here on this forum,nobody is looking at you ,it is what you say that interests `some` people,like soon Oxycodone will be gone,that is a good thing.
Who is the boss Annie who is running the show,if only you knew.

[Jimenez]

Leave for a weekend and you guys can certainly get yourself worked up over something. I changed my handle when the system changed here. I could no longer use my Christian name because it was "in use". I, like others, had to come up with a new handle so I could post at all. Nothing less, nothing more. The trivial conversations me and Pat/Tom/Thomas had before were just that, trivial. I didn't get war secrets from tom nor was it anything that any one of you couldn't read for yourself on this board. If it was "personal" then it shouldn't have been posted to the board. I never conversed with tom via e-mail. When the system here at medhelp changed and log-ins changed, so did many people's handles. Tough **** if you don't know my "old name". Believe me tom, you wouldn't say "Oh, I know who Jimenez was NOW." You wouldn't. It was nothing then and it's nothing now. The "conspiracy theory" attitude abounds here. I don't care what you "demand" tom, I owe you nothing. And the way you've treated and talked to me in recent memory, you're in no position to ask me anything. I tell you what, you and everyone else can go back to what it is you were doing before I interrupted you. Put your venom back in the closet tom. You're really barking up the wrong tree. You can all pat yourselves on the back for fighting the "good fight" here lately. Arguing all day is not in my best interest, and neither is talking/reading about drug use. So, you can all rest easy. Jimenez (the only name I've used since the "change" - I can't believe I'm spending time defending myself over this) will leave you to whatever it is you do. Again, another round of applause. I find it troubling that any of you would think that I would "hide" and/or deceive you over anything. For what? What could I possibly gain? I have a spouse, a full-time+ job, a child and personal issues that occupy much of my time. This reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where there was a "flash" in the sky. All the neighbors start wondering who/what it was. The local kid has a comic book about space creatures landing that is eerily coincidental with the occurences of that day. Well, who else do all the "neighbors" start to suspect? The strange "new" neighbor, who nobody really knows. Pretty soon, suspicions become irrational thought - it's group think, mob mentality and they kill the poor guy. He never was an alien though. Just another neighbor.

So, all I did was try to correct what I thought was incorrect information regarding law enforcement. I tried to tell hedhurtz to give her husband the benefit of the doubt. I also tried to inspire people to stop dwelling on drugs (if they were) and go outside for a bit. Well, SUE ME! tom got hung up on some of the comments that I made regarding him. Since then he has gone berserk. I apologize to you tom. I really do. The last thing you need right now while you're trying to get clean is this. Please let it go. Not for me, but for yourself. Really man. It is/was NOTHING. Anyway, for those who still might not understand - I had 2 names here. Just 2. One prior to the system change and one after. I didn't misrepresent myself in any way. In fact, I was absent from the board for a long time. Several months in fact. So when I "came back" there really wasn't any personal history that made my nickname here essential. So, rest easy people. I think it's a pretty clear consensus that I'm causing more harm here than good. I can deal with that, and I am big enough to bow out. Again, no harm was intended. I'm sorry if people got "heated". Take care all, even you tom:) God bless and may we all be comfortable in our own skin.

[Thomas]

you still didn't tell us what that former handle was. And I love the berserk reference -- it was great fun! You should try it sometime. I wish you could understand that I merely enjoy, as spook called it, a good "slog out." I really meant nothing personally hurtful to you at all. But if you feel the need to depart, I can't stop you. But it was fun while it lasted. Come back any time.

[PS >>>>Annie]

I am going to email you on that one!  Full of inuendos.  I beleive in being straight forward.  Maybe I couldn't crack the code, because I am fried to a crisp. haaaaaaaaaaaaa
Brain fried that is.  J>J>ing.....I am in pain, have been, and always will be......so it seems.  My brain tunes most of it out.  Then I get to the breaking point.  I am salvaging the little meds I have left.  I have degenerative arthritis and bone spurs.  It will get worse.....I am just beginning to tread a  path toward lifetime treatment/options.  I am getting closer everyday.  
The reason I wanted to change my name is because my family may stumble across this site one-day, and I want my "pain-issues" to be my business.....Oh and yours of course.  lol  It is none of their business anyway.  They just want my problems to disappear and not interfere w/ their little lives.  They think that my wounds have healed(in their minds).......so move on.  I did that for 8 years.
Spook, I know exactly who's running the show.  Do you really???
Look for my email.

Annie hoo!

[Jimenez]

"you still didn't tell us what that former handle was."

Who said I was going to?

[PS >>>>Annie]

*********** Cool it down boys!!!!..I'm stepping in!!*************
                               lol

[PS >>>>Annie]

No horse-playing.........I'm going grab some lunch.  Care to join me????  BLT sounds good.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Sometimes you just gotta jump right in.  You sound stressed out.
What has been going on?  We don't mean to be insensative.

[Claudia]

I want to convey to you..YOU do what you need to do for YOU and taht baby ..you are NOT a team he's proven this to you..and you must act for YOURSELF ...this uncaring and unloving behavior of his probably one reason youre addicted..oh I know Im not saying youre not responsible for your own behavior and blaming ..here.

BUT your husband is not interested in what's best for YOU, this he has proven. I think he's looking out for NUMBER ONE HERE. I think perhaps something that has not been mentioned he does NOT want this flagged to anyone's attention..via his insurance, it sure wouldnt look good to the department (DEA) to have an agent's wife in for detox. He's perhaps worried about having his sorry a$$ being accused of perhaps aiding and abedding you with confiscated goodies???

Either way special pre-authorization is usually required for admission into detox trust me I've been there and the insurance companies do NOT want to pay for it..secondarily to relapse rates and expense and stigma.

I say DO IT do it NOW get that baby..to your mother's or some trusted friend...or relative..if you feel that he'd try to take the baby and file temp div. papers..get that done FIRST..a temp. order of custody and give your parents or whoever's got the baby power of attny. to act in the interest of the child during your stay in detox.  Look into rapid detox regimines, Im sure someone in Miami offers URDA. and most of all best of luck to you and God Bless and God's speed to recovery!!!

[HedHurtz]

First of all, I am responsible for my own actions! I interrupted a post up top....(Oxycontin) and I'm trying to get help the only way that I can.
I'm not going to file for divorce, I have my child in daycare and I just returned back to work. I am still addicted, but I am trying to seek help in ways that I can. PLease don't judge me! I am trying so hard to function. I don't want pity......I want to wean off myself and go to therapy.

[pelle1985]

I don't mean to jump in where I'm not wanted --  I'd just like to say one final thing and then leave it alone.  I am far from an expert on recovery, but am certainly an expert on addiction.  

You will not do this on your own.

Not to be an ******* or try to prove anything to you, but when you say such things as "I don't even count the damn amount that I take," how can you possibly expect to be able to taper?

When every addict I have met has gone through multiple detoxes and rehabs (some up to fifteen-plus times) before managing to get clean and stay clean (and *still* sometimes experiencing relapse), you understand how I cannot possibly imagine anyone doing something like this on their own.  This isn't just a small circle of personal friends, either -- it's many, many people I've met at many, many meetings, of every age, race, religion (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, economic condition, and anything else you can think of.  The disease does not discriminate.  It's the ultimate equal-opportunity destroyer.

Enough with the slogans and catch phrases.  I apologize if my opinion is unwelcome, as I suspect it will be, and I will have no further uninvited comment on your situation.  I just needed to say this.  Thanks for reading and in any case, my prayers go with you.

Peace,
Pelle

[HedHurtz]

Your opinion is not "unwelcome", that's why were here, isn't it? To hear what other people have been through or going through.....I found this website to be very eye opening. I have learned a lot about addiction. I know that I am not alone. I feel very alone most of the time. I have just started back to work and I feel great about that. I haven't felt this good in a long time. I am still in my viscious drug cycle though, I am afraid of withdrwals.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

You are doing just fine!  I like the way you sound now and I think that you are on track about this life of addiction.  It's a daily struggle for me and you and Pelle.  Maybe we can help eachother somehow?  Take care and be well.  J.B.