I have a mood question...

[jennyfla]

I am an addict (and not proud of it).  I am addicted to oxy's along with my husband who is addicted to oxy's and methadone.  I would LOVE to get off of these horrible pills because i feel like they are robbing me of my inner soul.  I have 3 beautiful children and the guilt and shame that i feel towards myself should be enough to enable me to get away from this addiction.  I am afraid of what I/we are doing to our children.  I'm like 1/2 a mommy, although i feel i do a good job, there must be so much more of me that i could give to them if it wasn't for this awful addiction.  
I used to be able to take the pills only at night (snorting), and get away with not needing them until nitetime again.  Now, i'm starting to feel the withdrawl upon waking.  I usually make myself suffer a bit before i give in.  
My question is my moods.  I don't even want to get out of bed in the morning (i work full-time, so i force myself to), and this happens even on the weekends.  Now, once i've been up for 1/2-1 hour, i'm ok.  What is going on here?  Has this ever happened to anyone before?
I told my husband I would ask this question about liver damage.  My husband is a mod-hvy drinker, plus shooting oxy's.  Can you please tell him that using oxy's, definately does effect the liver, especially when combined with alcohol.  He thinks the main danager only lies with pain meds and tylanol, but i don't think so.
Thank you for listening to me.  We've been together for 20-years now, and have had our ups and downs, but this is like nothing I have ever experienced.  Also, my husband went into an excellent 28-day rehab back 2-years ago, but unfortuately, because he didn't work the program, and apparently was not ready, it didn't work.  And I'm no better myself!
Thank you for listening, and i've enjoyed reading the posts on this forum.  I hope to become a part of it, and i hope that i might be able to help some of you, as you have helped me with your wonderful knowledge.  I'm especially interested in the detox and easing withdrawal symptoms tips, excellent info.
Thanks for listening.
Lv Jenny

[Thomas]

Have you ever heard the good doctor talk about a Schedule I drug (i.e., ibogaine, heroin, cocaine) in any context other than the ever-popular "don't do it - ever, ever, ever"? I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't something -- written or unwritten -- that dictates that no Schedule I drug ever be discussed by the doctor in positive terms that might tend to encourage one to fly down to St. wherever it is and get the ibogaine treatment. Imagine a flood of ibogaine-cured opiate addicts streaming back into the states, being interviewed on the TV, giving interviews, launching web sites. Might upset things a bit.

[Frank Lee]

Fran

[Francoise]

Cheerleading?

And while I'm at it, how about an honest, straightforward answer to the many questions which have been posted here concerning treatment of addictions by ibogaine? Simple searches on the internet produce many tantalizing and hopeful reports of treatment using this substance. Simply deleting threads concerning this treatment undermines your credibility on the one hand while insulting the intelligence of your audience on the other.

Surely there is some logical (no never pardonable) reason to attempt suppression of discussions about this substance other than a desire to protect monetary investments in methadone maintenance programs. Say it ain't so.

Francoise

[jennyfla]

I went to my doctor like a 'good' addict does, and the pill pusher in disquise tried to ignore my complaints of my aching side.  I mentioned this to her last month, and she insisted it's probably some sort of irritation in my gall bladder, and to take some pills she perscribed.  I never got it filled, why should i, i don't believe that's it anyway, and plus, they don't get you high (just kidding!).  
Anyway, I mention it again, and i practically have to BEG her to order a blood test for me.  Next month i have that scheduled so i can at least get a better idea of where i stand on how much i've abused my body.  Problem is, this dam disease is so powerful, they could tell you you're dieing, and you still go on using!!!  It's the devil in diguise!!!
I just couldn't get over the way she acted (the dr.)  She was avoiding and ignoring everything that i said.  She didn't want it to interfer with her 'income', what's another life anyway!!!!
I just kept pushing and taking it a step further, and i that point, i knew she wouldn't cut me off if my life depending on it, so i just went on and on to see how far i could push her.  She gave me more meds than last time probably just to shut me up!!!!!!  UNBELIEIVEABLE!!!!!!
I know that this disease is too powerful for me to be able to beat on my own.  I need to get myself together and understand if i want to see my children grow up (without them being damaged too much by this) or to see them grow up at all, then i need to get my butt straight!!!!  
Thank you for listening!
Lv Jenny

[jennyfla]

Thank you, and I always appreciate anyone taking the time to give me a realistic slap in the face; lord knows i need it!!
I am very sorry for what has happened in your life with your son.  The only thing you can do at this point (and I am sure you know this), is to move on and not waste even 1 little second more of your time together.
I wish you the best!!!
Lv Jenny

[Frank Lee]

One other sobering thought. I spent the last 15 years fightin drug addiction. As a result my son grew up without me being there for him. I could have done so much, but the main thing for me at the end of the day was making sure I numbed myself with loratab and vodka, then came the boy and unfortunately, there was little left for him. I will live with that forever. Don't let it happen to you. You have time. Best of luck.

Regards,

FLee

[jennyfla]

Thank you, Thomas, for the eye-opener!!
Well you caught my attention, now it's just a matter of getting strong.  If it wasn't for my 3 children, you words wouldn't have hit me with such force, but the thought of them growing without me, it's just not a concept i can even accept.
My children are gifts from god, and for me to be so stupid with my life of addiction, really brings forth a great deal of self-hatred.  I know i need to love myself, and also love myself enough to want to get well, I understand all that, but it is so very very hard.
My daughter just made her first communion over this past weekend, and being involved in the church over the past couple of weeks has opened my eyes back up to religion somewhat.  I hope to turn to god for strength and guidance during this most difficult phase of my life.
Thank you again for your advice and information.  Also, the AA contact!
Lv Jenny

[Francoise]

Let me get you started again. I'm taking 150 mg Serzone to help level off the mood swings consequent to the oxycontin use. Its effect must be very subtle and I wonder sometime if it's actually doing anything since I seem to continue with the mood swings. I dropped it altogether for a couple of months with no ill effects save a noticeable return of the distance between the top of the highs and the bottom of the lows. Any observations?

For others who have commented on the difference between addiction and dependence, thanks. I appreciate the valuable insights provided by your experience.

Here's another question. I have the cooperation of my doctor if I want to taper off the oxycontin. He would support me if I decided to taper off the oxycontin ten milligrams at a time and do it at step-off frequencies of whatever I decided, say 100 milligrams this month, then ninety milligrams for two or three months if that's what I want to do. Of course, it would take a couple of years or longer to get off the oxy at this rate, but who's in a hurry here? Then, there's the other half of this dilemma: what will I do about the pain from all the broken, nerve-involved places? My question here is: If I can taper off at that glacial pace, is depression inevitable? Always? No escape?

Thomas has suggested I change my attitude about the oxy. Regard it as a friend and helper as opposed to an enemy and an evil. And I recognize he's got a point. The enculturation provided by the pointless and lethal "War on Drugs" has had a stealth effect on my thinking in this regard. That and an experience or two with the horrible depression of withdrawal.

(Note to Spook: Observing correct punctuation, spelling, grammar, and other rules of English language usage can hardly be regarded as obsessive. At some juncture, the point of using language - communicating - is lost altogether in a jumble of unrelated words, and no information is transferred. If the rules describing abstract mathematical relationships are ignored, the math doesn't work; the object fails of orbit; the motor doesn't run; the bridge falls down; etc. Same with language. And as the topic of conversation becomes more abstract, as in - say - the relationship between mysticism and quantum physics, language is called upon to perform at its uttermost precision. And ya can't be precise with sloppy grammar and spelling and all that other stuff.)

Thanks all for your interest and your support.

Francoise

[Thomas]

I'm not going to try to answer all the issues your two large posts have raised, but let me say this:

I have been a prescription narcotic addict (including oxys) for thirty years. I can't fully explain your "morning experience," other than to theorize that, when you wake up, you've still got oxy in your system, and forcing yourself to get up, which increases your metabolism, probably causes that remaining oxy to circulate through your system and have its effect. That's my best guess.

Your husband is smoking something if he thinks only alcohol and Tylenol cause liver damage! Alcohol by itself causes liver damage. Oxy by itself causes liver damage. Virtually all substances put some degree of strain on the liver. But mixing anything with alcohol multiplies its destructiveness to the liver many times. MANY times. To my knowledge, there are no exceptions. It seems from, I think, your second post that you and your husband started out, and remain fundamentally, alcoholics. Alcohol seems to be the common denominator in all your drug use. As such, you are actively poisoning yourselves on a daily basis.

Remember this, because you won't hear it everywhere. I'm not sure if it applies to absolutely every drug, but this is something you must hear: Alcohol when mixed with drugs has a peculiar effect on the liver. It appears to cause the liver to "ignore" whatever pills you've taken in favor of concentrating on filtering the alcohol out of your bloodstream. The result is that this effect allows the pills you've washed down with the booze to build up in your bloodstream to sometimes-deadly concentrations. The liver's meant to cleanse the blood "with every pass." Imagine if you popped two or three oxys (with alcohol) and your liver allowed all three oxys to build up in your bloodstream simultaneously? Stop mixing alcohol with drugs, you wingnuts!!! Otherwise, make sure your wills are in order and you've made the decision regarding cremation or cemetery burial.

I think you already know you're both heading for rehab. A good rehab that combines twelve-step participation and education can save your lives. Just do me one favor: look around you. Look at what you really have in your life that is or could be good and ask yourself if you want to throw all of that away. Good luck to both of you. If you need friendly, understanding contacts for AA, go to the web site below. On the other end of the phone will be an alcoholic who understands without you telling him and who has a very good chance of having a more horrific story to tell than yours. There is nothing to fear. As far as I'm concerned, for the second time in my long life of addiction, AA has saved my life for some better purpose. I'm not a religious person, but, nonetheless, AA brings the spiritual out in me and that's what it takes to bring this disease under control and live a meaningful life again.

http://www.aa.org/CtrOff_d1.html

[susanlea]

First of all so I don't mislead anyone, I'm Susanlea, I've talked with a few of you before. My 11year old son did something to the computer, and I don't know what to do, so I will use this for now. Hello Spook! I think I now know why all the women love you. You have brought some sunshine and laughter in my otherwise depressing life. I have to put in my two cents on the topic of depression. The only drug I am addicted to is coffee and cigarretts which will kill me in the end. After what I had been through with my ex's addiction, my Dr. put me on Effexor,which hasreally helped me tremendously. The information I obtained about this antidepressent is, it helps with OCD's, obsession, being complusive. For me, I was so co-dependent on him, I was always obsessed with, where's he getting his drugs, how much is hetaking, is he going to get fired, I think everyone knows the routine. Then I developed a compulsion to try and fix him, his addiction, making sure he got to work, that I kept my kids from seeing his withdrawals. My God! it became so exhausting. The insanity of the disease, it makes the one's enabling the addict, seem like abunch of fruitcakes. It makes us mean, nagging,uncontrollable, because we don't understand, what we can't fix. The Effexor has kept this in check, for me it works. Along with AL-anon, and a great sponser......Love you guys, Susanlea.

[spook]

I agree with everybody here and admire you all much.
My approach with Antidepressants is to find by trial and error the one that works, now I have pointed out that I fail to see how they repair the problem, but they certainly allow one to remain functional if you find the right one.And I recommend Antidepessants as an interim measure in conjuction with getting an act together.
Enter alprazolam, This is a Triazolobenzodiazepine and Appears unlike other Benzodiazepines to possess "significant" Antidepressant properties,why it even has a tendency to produce Hypomania if your lucky?.This little miracle substance does not have all the yukky side effects of the average SSRI, MAO , Tricyclic, etc, etc.
It will make you drowsy as you "slowly" increase the dose to a suitable level 1.5 to 3mg but thereafter it seems fine.
This drug is not currently approved for depression, but seems anxiety or panick disorder could mascerade as depression you may pull it off(cunning).
There are some cautions and that is Addiction and physical and Psychological Dependence may occur, well more precisely Addiction and abuse MAY! occur and the Dependence/s will definately occur, however the Dependencies are easily dealt with by slow titration when going of it (take your time) and the Addiction is not an issue if you follow my space cadet theories on mind consciousness expansion,etc,etc.
So there is something people may want to try, just do not forget to get off it ASAP and get on with life again.
Probably next favorate is Parnate but this is another story again and I just suggest look around and find an Antidepessant that actually works, do not let your doctor push just any old chemical down your throat, you know your body best or do you? Don`t get me started again?

[spook]

Yes I agree, I have been a bit anti drug lately,people need things to help them wean off.

[Frank Lee]

I agree with your cosmic ramblings to an extent. As usual, your thought processes are stimulating. One could cite the work of Krishnamurti and David Blom regarding the actual change of brain cells and serotonin levels through an evolved consciousness of living. I too aspire to such lofty satori, but alas we have to deal with the plebian problems that many of us face.

Is this a board for the expansion of consciousness or for providing real support and asking relevant questions about treatment for folks who are having problems with substance abuse? I suggest that the latter is a least a big part of what the board has to offer. That is why I posted the original question.

I too am weary of physiological explanations of dysfunction, but I aver the possibility exists and respect those who opine the same. Thus, if for a few out there, antidepressants are actually a way out of the vicious cycle of painkillers then let's discuss it practically and without preaching an elitist enlightenment.

A suggestion if I may. When you use commas, hit the spell check also - it would make reading your posts a bit easier, at least for me.

Thanks,

FLee

[Pixie]

What Spook is suggesting, if I may, is that your ENTIRE outlook must change before you can break the cycle of dependence. Most people who are successful at breaking an addiction-and staying off for life-have had an epiphony of sorts. If you quit a habit, but change nothing else in your life, you are likely to relapse. Here is why; the pill(or whatever else) isn't the problem. It is you. You could say it is your environment, but ultimately you have chosen that environment. Why? Probably because you don't value yourself enough to allow yourself a magical life. What if you only have this one chance? What if everything hereafter is controlled by destiny, or the universe, or A God? Then this may be the only time you have to actually influence what happens to you. You can create your own experiences, and you can set the path. To be spiritual is not so much to say, "It's in God's hands", but to realize that God (or whomever)  took you in his hands and placed you here to do your own thing for a while. To realize that you have that kind of control over your reality is to realize that addiction is trivial. See? Spiritual introspection certainly has its place here. It is, in fact, directly related to recovery.
Pixie

[Frank Lee]

I don't know if that's what's Spook is saying - but I think we are talking about two different things.

1.) Is it better to be on an antidepressant than to be on booze and painkillers if the AD controls your desires to abuse? If so, what antidepressants have people had success with? This is a legitimate question.

2.) You and Spook seem to be eschewing some spiritual take on the whole thing which is fine, in fact I agree that there is an element of spirituality or (whatever you want to call it) involved in all this.

My question was, for those of us who abuse substances, have we any experiences to share with anti depressants that helped us stop abusing? I am also asserting that, if indeed there is a biological disconnect in substance abusers, perhaps being "dependent" on anti -depressants each day would be far better physically, mentally and yes, spiritually, than the downward spiral of dependence of drugs and pain killers.

Thanks,

FLee

[Frank Lee]

Spook, well put. Nor do I want to take drugs the rest of my life. I want to be strong and clear when I cross the finish line. However, in the interim I am looking for(and believe this board is a great place to be discussing) options to painkillers and booze. As an interim measure or even as a long-term measure I was sincerely wondering how viable antidepressents were and I think there is much more to explore.

Thanks to Steve G. (fascinating treatise on supplement modalities

[cindi]

I just read you rpost regarding the difference between being physically dependant and addicted ot opiates...I don't know if I can answer but this is what I have found....I am an addict...One pill, one anything leads me into this obsession, in search of diplaying drug seeking behavior...Something I cannot get ou of my head....Now, as a nurse, I have taken care of patients, on along term basis, that have been on narcotics for a few months at at time while in the hospital and just before being released they ahve been taken off of the medication,  they have experienced some withdrawals but they were able to deal with it and let it be...no drug seeking behavoir...nothng like that, they were done with the meds and never looked back...I, as an addict would develop every symptom imaginable to get more...cramps, headache etc....I can drive the docs nuts, does that make sense to you?  I remembe when I had pneumonia, spook had sent me some e-mail telling me to make sure my cough does not turn into soemthing chronic to obtain more hydrocodone cough syrup..He knwos that is what we, as addicts will do, a normal person would not go there.....I hope I may have helped to answer the question, or maybe you were loking for something else...anyway, have a great weekend....cindi

[spook]

Your all looking for something, I hope you find it. My problem was I lost myself, but some apparently have some damaged Neurons, considering we only use 10% of our brain cells?, maybe missing a few can be compensated with some soul searching, but then again their are always more drugs to take.I tried them all and I tried the difficult way last, thank god it worked, just cannot imagine having to take drugs that affect my mind the rest of my life.

[Steve G]

Frank:  There's at least some truth to the current thinking that chronic use of narcotics depletes the brain's supply of neurotransmitters  that are essential to "well-being" (for lack of a better word) At one time, I was up to 200 to 300 mgs of Hydro/day along with anything else I could get my hands on.  All started because of herniated L-4 & 5 and a well-meaning PCP who perscribed them like candy.  Make a long story short, I kicked at home, cold turkey, after 3 years of continual use.  Truly a nightmare from the physical standpoint but survivable.  Now, in an effort to bring back my neurotransmitters, I put myself on a regime of 4 grams of L-Tyrosine (amino acid) with B6 (100mgs)and C (100mgs) every other morning washed down with a glass of orange juice on an empty stomach. ( Put L-Tyrosine in any search engine and read...B6 facilitates the breakdown of the Tyrosine which is a precursor to things like dopamine, etc )  I can tell you that this particular supplements will have an immediately beneficial effect on your energy levels & overall outlook.  Perceptible and quite helpful in dealing with the post-kick depression that seems pretty inevitable for all of us addicts...
I've been the zoloft, celexa, prozac route and for me it was not a good solution because I refuse to deal with the side effects (especially decreased libido)  But, the L-Tyro with B6 & C works like a charm for me.  BTW, I'm 50 years old and started fooling around with drugs in 1968 so you can guess how many times over the years I screwed up...

Best wishes and try getting off the pain meds if you can.  The withdrawal will be hell but not fatal and then try pumping up the neuros...

[jennyfla]

i was just wondering why i feel so dark when i first wake up.  Once i get up and start moving around, it goes away.  i don't take anything until afternoon, even if i'm in withdrawl.  I'm sure the feeling is drug-related, but why does it go away after i start moving around.  I've only been feeling this over the past 2-months or so.  Just curious!  I try to keep very close tabs on feelings and effects of things, and this one has me baffled.  Just wondering if anyone else feels this way.  

I've never been on antidepressants, and don't believe i am depressed.  Although i went to counseling two-years ago, and they felt i've been depressed for a long long time.  It does run in my family (my mom), who is also an alcoholic.  I had a great childhood except for my mom's bingeing, and we never knew what was wrong with 'mom' growing up.  My dad tried to cover it up and said she was 'tired'.  It's still an unforbidden topic in my family.  

I think i first began drinking alcohol because of my extreme shyness while growing up.  I beat that in my mid-20's by being more comfortable with myself.  My looks are pretty decent, and i feel that helped tremdously with acceptance by people.  It's a true fact, good looks (and being a nice person) helped draw me out of my shyness.  I was confident and at least didn't have to hide behind the exterior.  I am far from vain, it's hard to even say 'i'm good-looking', and really didn't believe it for a long long time.  Once that door was open with confidence, then i began being more comfortable with my inner-self and became what i am today; a wonderful person, but, unfortuately, an addict too.

Back to the subject.  I am not depressed through a chemical imbalance, but i believe i am depressed through my environment.  I've had to numb myself with chemicals because i am not able to deal with my life with my husband, and also my insecurities that have been brought on by being a co-dependent person.  It's what i saw growing up (my dad), and how i learned to behave.

Didn't mean for this to get so long.  Good luck to all of you in recovery; I really admire your strength.  Keep up the good work, and never believe that using drugs will ever be a better way of living.  Be patient, you will regain your life and then some!!!  I love one of the previous postings about becoming a stronger person because of the addiction after beating it.  Although you never really beat it, it will be a continous struggle for the rest of your life.  But what in life is worth anything without a lot of work!!!  You can do it, stay strong!!!!
Lv Jenny

[spook]

I have `serious` reservations about using chemicals to bridge a theoretical misalignment between the inner world and the outer world.Society needs to change or you need to change!, Perpetuating the myth of Antidepressants as a cure for "life"?, since when was life an illness?.
Where do these so called "Professionals" get their information from , out of books or something?, it sounds like the blind leading the blind.We need to focus here, this thingy we call life, I think people need an entirely new approach to our Human condition. Find the lesion and prove a Neurochemical deficit and I will listen to the Psychiatrists and therapists otherwise they are as "lost" as the so called "patient".
This smells of industrialism, it reaks of pragmatic, materialist positivism, I will not have a bar of it.
Humanity is to to precious.    

[spook]

Thanks for the space after every comma suggestion, you have discovered that perfectionism is an imperfection ,that if habitualized becomes self perpetuating.I was probably away from school on the day they taught that syntax of typing.

In my humble opinion the Recidivism occurs as the person recovers to the point where they are back to when they initially started using the DRUG in the first place. So it takes more than abstinence to be abstinent, implyng their is no neurochemical basis to the resumption of use and that it is purley Psychogenic.This I am certain of with Opioids, not Cocaine, etc.

One may (will) find they need a fundamental change in the way they view "life" they must look at their hopes and dreams in their life and realize expectations are a curse.

One simply cannot forge happiness from materialism nor escape the harsh realities of existance. I believe if we accept ourselves as we are created (in the image of God) and abondon that which is instilled (programming by society) then we will not fail. You cannot fail at being yourself, that is simply not possible, so we are shedding the skin of expectation and leaving ourselves open to the will of God.

One does not necessarily need to understand God, but they definately have to understand themselves, and one leads to the other, therefore the subconscious must be explored, I have theorized that the "Freudian", Subconscious is not normal and is is a defence mechanism for when a Human Brain is overwhelmed by sensory input.

This has implications in that we are now back at my original point, that is society is overloading your brain.

With all this in mind one must realize it is nescessary to come to a compromise between inner and outer REALITY and this leads us to Quantum Consciousness, ie no subconscious.

Latest research is scientifically revealing (slowly) that our "mind" is embedded in space and thus we are all in a cosmic state of communication.

These are all most difficult subjects to comprehend let alone integrate into ones life as a concrete state of mind. So my advice is that we need a starting point at least and thus I have provided it for anybody that dares to follow.(read it all again and live it).

Complete step by step instructions will be given in my book "the Enigma of Consciousness",- `that` I have not yet published, but never the less exists as a mass of scribbles on hundreds of pieces of paper and I have taken my own advice and tested the theories and am sure they will work for others to.

Luke.g.Edward

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

In response to your question about AD's: I'd shy away from them as much as possible.  I've also had problems with alcohol and found that drugs such as Paxil make the problem worse.  I tended to drink much more and suffer hangovers less.  Just my experience with AD's.  J.B.

[Frank Lee]

Hi Francoise - I'm confused, Spook did not post in this thread - were you commenting on my post or am i really missing something?

Please explain.

Thanks,

Flee