I have no Idea

Just found out that one of my employee's has been going to a methadone clinic every morning for about a week, she has been sweating profusely and seems to fade in and out, often, especially late in the afternoon..She says she wants to get off lortab, which she tells me she was taking 3 a day for alot of years.  My question is, is 45 milligrams alot for only 3 lortab a day?  Is there something I could suggest instead of the methadone?  She has a very big addiction history....Has been clean for 2 years now after injecting loads of cocaine for years.  I care for her well being and am afraid she will get addicted to the methadone.   Any advice would be VERY helpful.  Thanks

[buprenex]

The methadone she is taking will level out after she is on for for a few weeks. She will stop nodding off. Sweating happens but can go away. People on Methadone hate the seating. It is embarrasing. Maybe her dose is a little high. She should be fine and a good employee after she is stabilized. 45 mg is not a huge amount. Keep supporting her, and yes it is better if she can find antother way off, You do get addicted Methadone. Not stay on if it can be avoided. But that for her doctor, but you can help by suporting her. I do not have enough knowledge to be saying more than I have. I am basically correct in what I know. I am a an employer as well. No need to freak out about this. Your not,just do start.

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

45mg's of methadone is a lot of methadone to cover a 3 pill a day intake of hydrocodone.  Unfortunately the current pholosophies of many clinics is to flood the patient with methadone to get them to cease the drug seeking behavior. And then address the problem of a methadone addiction. Obviously this does not properly address the issue. But its what many do currently. All that I could add would be that the methadone is very hard drug to quit and it takes forever to do it without extreme discomfort. And the clinic will likely let her elevate her dose about as far as she desires.

[buprenex]

I agree with you about 45 MG being high for 3 pills. However I said that it may be a little high. What I was considering and what maybe liklely is she was minimizing her intake amount so the employer would not freak out. It is hard to know how much she is on or exactly why she is being dossed at 45 MG. But you right clinic to make it a one size fits all, want you on a high amount, do want you off etc. I am encouraging her employer to help guide her into the best deal. I like to see her off methadone. Seem like she would be a good candidate for a short term Methadone detox of 7 days, but we do not have her real problem details for sure. Just what she felt comfortable telling her boss.

[whitie]

something dont add up with the 3 a day story...... then now she is doing methadone?


10 mgs of methadone alone,is stronger than the 3 pills she supossedly was taking.  usually if some one is doing loads of coke, IV wise. they would have a propensity to do a much larger amount of opioids.

given what she told you there is absolutely no reason she should be on methadone. if she cant shake a 3 pill a day habit, she is never going to shake the 'done which is known to be the worst,some say.

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

Bupe - Well I cant say that I ever really volunteered the truth to anyone myself. And 45 is just a bit above the standard initiation dose of 30milligrams.....  Regardless she will be used to 45 in a few days.  Sounds like the boss is quite workable. I think that he also has her best interest at heart. Now if she lucks out with a decent clinic she will be in good shape.

[leeisgettingclean]

yeah i agree with everyone above as far as  the fact that getting on a highly addictive drug like methadone to kick a three pill a day habit is lnot a wise decision, doctors at these "clinics" seem a little over eger to prescribe this drug. I have never taken done, but it does get you high,right? so what stops drug addicts who cant find a doc to get loratabs/oxy or whatever from just walking in one of these places and getting this ****?? OVER PRESCRIBED..NEEDS MORE REGULATIONS AND DOCOR AWEARNESS

[buprenex]

I am with you all the way. That is what I want is for her boss to work with her. And that is exactly what I hear the boss is willing to do. So bringing one of my ideas to focus is hopefully her boss will not freak out if she is or was doing higher level of coke or opoids.
We all know we can get up to some incredibly high doses. So I would be afraid to tell my boss I was on 50 Vicodins a day. That just more than the average person can imagine. I would rather say it was 3 a day hoping the boss would not freak out.

I do not know if Methadone is used for coke, but if it is perhaps that why the amount is higher at 45MG.

[IBKleen]

Either she is lying to you about how many pills she was taking, or she is lying to the clinic. My guess is she is lying to you, sorry to say. No clinic would give her 45mgs of Methadone for a 3 pill a day habit.

I know you want to help her and I admire you for that but please be careful since she is in your employ.

Since she has a history of abuse I think her best bet would be to get into inpatient treatment before she gets addicted to the Methadone (which will not take long).

[notme123568]

Hey thanks guys for the info....I am doing everything I can to be supportive, I should have mentioned that I have a salon, and she is one of my hairstylists, she is not functioning very well at all, I have given her the next couple of days off.  I have never personally done any drugs, so it is hard for  me to know or judge what is going on.  I think she would go somewhere for help it there is a bigger prblem than 3 lortabs a day, however no insurance and I wouldn't know where to begin to look for help.  Maybe County?  We live in Florida, so again anymore advice?  You are all in my prayers and maybe you could even give me some advise on my nasty cigarette addiction.

[buprenex]

I am assuming she has been able to work well and do her job in the recent past. Even not the methadone is a only a week. Their is an adjustment phase and every one is different. Fading in and out should go away soon after she is stabilized.  I have to give her credit for going to a methadone clinic for getting treatment while trying to keep her job. She maybe she is on too high dose as well. Unless she is doing drugs while on the Methadone, she should be able to work normal at some point. In confiding as she has. She is in Methadone most likely because she had no options.

Anyway, talk to her if appropriate and if you find out other facts maybe we can help help her. She could be told of this site as well.  

[notme123568]

I just got of the phone with her and she came clean to me that she was taking 7 to 9 lortabs a day.  Yes she was way more functunal at work while on the lortabs.  I will stand by her through this Methodone trial,  I asked her if I could go with her tomorrow morning, as she meets with a counciler after her dose.  She said that would be very helpful as she is afraid that they will not DECREASE her doses.   I told her that  I have called a helpline and the man told me they should decrease her dose at 5 miligrams a week.  She would like me to go with her to make sure that this is the clinics plans!  I also would like to ask your advice on asking her to come stay with me for a few days as she is very unhappy in her present living conditions....it puts her under alot of stress, and I know that can't be healthy either.  Should I invite her to my stress  free home or am I trying to help her too much?  
Ya'll don't know how much you are helping me to understand...Hey I got her to admit her usage!!!!!

[CATUF]

Dogs bark, fish swim and addict lie.

Of course I don't know this young lady, but I bet big that she was taking WAY more than 3 a day.

BUT, that doesn't really matter.  It seems perfectly natural that she'd minimize the use (I used to lie to my dealers about how much I used), because that's what we do.  What does matter is that she told you she had a problem with tabs to a degree that she needed outside help.

Usually we addicts lie because we carry so much shame.  We are ashamed of what we are and have been doing and the fact that we haven't been able to stop seems to be clear proof that we are BAD.  We don't want other people to "find out" how bad we are.  We are convinced to a certainty that we are indeed very bad people and that "you" would have nothing to do with us if "you" found out our secret.  

Just Google  

She's not a bad person that needs to become good again, she's a sick person that needs to become well again.  If you can accept that and treat her that way, it will be a huge help.  

CATUF
1546

[CATUF]

hmm  I wrote "Just Google 'addiction shame' - there's a ton of information on it," but I had "addiction shame" inside 'carrots' and that seems to have had some affect.

Time for a test.  Below I will write "TEST: Black Holes Eat Stars," with carrots on either side of Black and Stars.

TEST:  - did that work?

[CATUF]

OK - I'm giving up carrots! For good: I'm giving them up for good.

well, maybe it would be alright if I only used one carrot

TEST: <Black Holes Eat Stars

[notme123568]

Sorry I am a little confused about the test thing.  But I do appreciate the advice on accepting this as an illness, and yes I am behind her 100%.

[CATUF]

maybe it would be OK if I used two, but did them backwards

TEST:   >Black Holes Eat Stars<

[CATUF]

Sorry about that.  When my initial post to you came up I saw that the second-to-last paragraph said only "Just Google."

I actually typed "Just Google *addiction shame,* but I had a '>' after shame and a ' and the < were seen by the MedHelp computer as some sort of prohibited HTML code (or something like that - I'm no computer whiz) and I felt compelled to run a little test.

Then, the whole thing struck me a bit funny and reminiscent of the self-deal-making addicts go through when they realize they can't continue to use like they have been, but they're unwilling to completely give up their drug of choice - so I had to run with that a bit.

I promise I'm not really as weird as this must make me seem to be.

CATUF

[CATUF]

I give up . . . I am never using <'s again.

[buprenex]

If she was functioning on the Lortabs, then that means to me she will be functioning very well on the Methadone when she gets adjusted to it and/or she has it adjusted properly. WE ALL hate the idea, but what is done is done. As long as she is not or does not take any other drugs. If she does you will have to be prepared to end your help especially if she continues. Sometimes people can not be helped!

So as far as working goes I think she will be just fine. That is one of the main reasons they put herion addicts on Methadone, it stabilizes them, they do not need to run around getting drugs and they do not have the cravings to do that. They become productive employess. This will raise a major debate on Methadone when it gets read hear. I HATE METHADONE! She will not get high or dooze off after she get adjusted  properly. She will not feel the need to get Lortabs. As I said as long as she is not doing others drugs or starts other drugs she will be all
right.

If you want to help her with a private doctor, you could explore Suboxone instead of Methadone. Cost varies 200 to 500  and more. They have a website that helps locate a doctor who has the permision to prescribe Suboxone.

Yes it may help a lot for you to be present to let the clinic know we do not want to get jerked around. She is scared and lonely. Hopefully you can hear and understand all the reasons she was placed on the 45MG. You will be in a better position to know/understand everything so much better. I think it would be super if she could get stabilized and then right away start a taper to zero. As she get lower she will need to slow it down, maybe she will be lucky because she has not been on it long it may not be as bad as it can be. But when she gets off, for her I believe since she does have a bad run with coke she will really need a program. She needs to develop it. Relapse is a part of the deal, it is actually normal.

On inviting her to your home. I am cool with that. But you need to realize it may not work out well for you. You have to judge if she will steal from you.  She is maybe unhappy at home. She does needs support. Are you helping her too much. As far as helping her too much you could be, it is a gut decision you need to make. I have no idea what is going on at her place. She said she is unhappy and that is one thing. If she had some other more serious situation I would be willing to help her. If you want to invite her that is a good enough reason. We can invite anyone we want to our home, their should be no problem in that, your entirely free and welcome to do that.If you get something out of the arrangment that is well and okay too.  We all need a friend! I say if you are willing to take the risk it will not work out well for you or her. That it will be  complicated. You believe she can be trusted and she has given you reasons/basis to believe she is trustworthy fine. Be sure to take care of yourself, I will be pulling for you two. There are happy endings!!  I have had some successes, you may end up with a very loyal employee who does a great job. You can just consider this an investment in your business. Your not taking advantage of her, maybe her life can be saved. People are good!

[notme123568]

Thank you so very much, your words helped alot!  Her home situation is she moved down here to Florida, for a healthy new beginning, she was doing great, her 23 year old daughter showed up with her 3 year old son, next came the unwanted boyfriend of her daughter, took over her apartment, that she was proud to have gotten on her own.  They use her, although I believe you teach people how to treat you, she is not as strong in taking control back.  Neither one gives her money, and she does the best she can helping to support her grandson.  Pisses me off to no end, however, my advice seems to be heard but never applied.  She is willing to walk away from her lease.....but I am afraid she will not get excepted to a new place for lack of good credit.  She will not let her grandson be alone with these two, so she feels stuck, unless her daughter will give her custody.  But as I have said, she is not stable enough for any of that right now.....Gosh I am getting myself worked up because there is so much I want to help her with........

[buprenex]

Yes okay, First things first. Well lets get her treated, tapered off and in a VERY SOLID Recovery Plan. A sponsor etc etc. Then we need family counseling etc. If anyone in the house is using drugs then she needs to have them leave NOW. This stress plus they are probably using was huge part of her relapse. Boyfried may even gave her drugs to manipulate her and get her hooked so he can stay there supllying her., it does happen that way. If they are using drugs it would be good for her to be at your house for a few days while they pack up and leave. As I have been saying sometimes some Methadone people will still try to get high and mix drugs and if she is hanging around drug users the temptation is there for sure. This can not happen. This is very noble help. She will have to do the work though, you can help but she has to do the work in therapy etc. I just had the feeling she was a good kid. How old is she. She may be weak and sick in coming of Methadone so she may not be working well long. We will keep working the plans. I would like to see her see the doctor before she takes her dose. It may be time to lower it that day. She takes the dose, woops too late. If she is not in w/d and is dozing off I would think it should be considered it be lowered tomorow. She will not be as drowzy and will be getting off that much faster. But the doctor is the doctor. But I say be carefull, get her off, get her on lower doses ASAP. I will be in my office all day, keep us updated. Unless there are complications I think he should just taper her off over three days. Her w/d from Lortabs will be subsantialy over by then. Anytime after 10 days she will begin being addicted to Methadone. There is a short term Methadone plan 7 to 10 days. Ten days is the longest I would try being on it, seven days limit is far better. Yes I was saying she will work great after she is addcited, but your more concerned so we do no want her addicted. So keep that in mind, ask the doctor about that idea. It is possible she could just taper quick, feels like she has the flu maybe bad flu but would clear up 2 to 3 weeks. Get clonidine and all the comfort meds. Go to another doctor if you need too. This is to be discussed. I am not a doctor etc,. In the end she needs her apartment to get well in by herself. Otherwise she will end up at your house because things are changing in the treatment and she may weak or longer while she recovers from detoxing. If she just runs on methadone she will be working in no time. But it is not in her best interest to do it that way, so if you are willing to help then this is about what going to end being the need. Hope you understand all that late night gibber from me.

[PfizerFighter]

I had someone close to me die from an overdose of methadone. He lied to his doctor and said he was addicted to heroin just to get the methadone (he was addicted to pills, percocet, t3's, you name it). He got a hold of methadone and he abused them, he took too many at once, had to call an ambulance, and they rushed him to the ER for an overdose. He was okay after that, but guess what, he loved the high so much he did it all over again, this time he didn't wake up. We found him in his bedroom, it looked like he was just passed out (we often found him passed out from his pills). Turns out he was gone....if your friend/co-worker must take methadone, stress to her the danger of overdose. Encourage her to stick to her doctor's program STRICTLY. There's no playing around with this stuff.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I just wanted to let you know that. I don't want to scare you, but it is the truth.

:(

[notme123568]

I am so proud of her we did see the Dr. first this AM and she asked about lowering her dose today!  They took here down by 10 miligrams, so know 35.  and will be lowered by 5 or 10 from here!  She did all the talking and  stood her ground with what she wants out of this!  Thanks so much sweetie!  Will keep you posted.  This forum has helped me tremeniously in only a matter of hours!  God Bless

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

Outstanding!  You are an incredibly compassionate employer and human being.  May you also enjoy Gods Blessings.........

[whitie]

theres some more you need to know. first of all methadone IS a very powerful drug , like pfizerfighter said. it is a replacement narcotic opioid.........its just a better opioid on the body's organs.  It should really only be used for real heavy addicts.
in the end the money grubbing sub doc system is not the naswer, nor is methadone. the problem with these replacement opioids is they just skirt the inevitable, which is suffering from withdrawls. the patient's brain receptors are still addicted and the longer they are on any kind of opioid, the worse it will be for them to eventually free themsleves from the grip of OPIOID addiction!

until she is willing to go Cold turkey, which is tough to do, she will not get back to normal. she is going to have to shake the 800 pound gorilla off her back sonner or later and it can be done. I had to shake a 'done and norco habit, all by mee lonesome(and this forum was monumental  :). hopefully she does not mix them like I did, or has been on them for 5 years or so. then it takes  serious commitment to quit for good, and the wd's just dont go away in a few days or a week. zero excuses or comprimises is in order. if she stays on the done, for a long period it may take months for her to get back to %90 normal.


going through wd's is the price we all have paid to get clean. I wish I could say theres a silver linning some place and there is when she gets off all opioids.

[buprenex]

Super stuff, if she gets tapered quickly off the methadone. It is possible before that addiction sets in, she will be over the Lortab w/d at least the worse part. It is rare, but this intervention by you that is ending up just as she got started and before she is actualy addicted to Methadone could be a really amazing occurence. Some have done a short term detox with Methadone and it been just the right thing for them. How is she feeling?

[KiaKaha]

Hey! My hubby has come down from 65mg of methadone and it's taken 2 years! He had a 200-300mg a day iv morphine habit. I'm thinking tapering down 5mg a week might be too much, maybe 2.5mg  then drop it off at maybe 1mg or even 1/2mg a week or she may not be able to work. The last 4 months my hubby's had to taper off slower and slower as the withdrawals have gotten worse and worse. I've stood by him throughout this process and it's been really hard.  Take care of yourself while you're caring for your friend.

[Walker315]

OK, lots of ggod input here.  Iwas honestly expecting a lot worse feedback on methadone.  We're still missing an important concept though.  Addiction is a disease.  Everyone says they believe this ant then go about treating it like a mechanical problem.  Diseases come in degrees and require different treatment to be successful.  This means allow for the idea that what worked for me might be overkill for someone else and yet not enough for a third person.  Methadone is an extreme treatment for opiate addiction and should be used as such.  If there is an option of Methadone vs total abstinence choose abstinence but if the choice is Methadone or active use choose Methadone.  Over 85% of Methaone clients who choose to get off Methadone return to illicit drug use.  In NY State it is the only treatment that providers do not have to start dischagre planning at time of admission.  The twelve step community (AA, NA) generally views Methadone the same way they did antidepressants fifteen years ago but times have changed and people have realized recovery is not possible for some people with out some pharmocological help.

"Addiction" to Methadone?  Physiological dependence yes but being on a clinic and taking Methadone as prescribed, assuming someone is honest about their symptoms, doesn't meet my defenition of addiction.  Methadone clinics are very inconvenient and definately expose clients to a bad element but do not require them to steal, prostitute or any of the glamours addiction generally leads to.  I've never heard of HIV, Hep C or Cotton Fever coming from a clinic.  I know this is a hard concept but the narcotics are not the problem addiction is.  Treat the addiction with the least restrictive, effective treatment.  If thats Methadone so be it.  If she can get off the clinic at some point without returning to illicit use great but I wouldn't push her.

Check out the web site for National Alliance for Methadone Advocates or try a keyword search for Methadone and Watchdog.

I commend you for supporting her and seeking out information, god bless.

[mr.lucky66]

This situation outlines my pet peave. Getting vicodin addicts addicted to methadone! I 'm a fromer heroin/poly opiate abuser and spent 25 years on and off methadone clinics. The new clinic policies that started in the 90's let anyone on with a short history and give them as much methadone as they want. I have seen these hydro addicts turned into serious deperate addicts by this much more addictive drug. I have also seen these people educated by  the some of the sleaziest criminals on how to get dope and get over at the clinics. It's not good to go through life sweating , constipated and sedated. This drug and methadone treatment has value and I'm not putting down MMT I just saying it's overused. MMT was originaly ment for hard core heroin addicts as a harm reduction treatment for addicts who risked their lives and society everyday to get a fix. It wasn't made for people who take too many narcotic pain pills and it pains me when I have seen these people kicking methadone after they get kicked off of and walk off a clinic. Stopping smoking is hard and I quit last year with help from chantix. all the best

[notme123568]

Hey everyone, I am taking in all of what you are saying?  Good news is when she went in for her dose today, she gave her counseler, after reading these notes from ya'll, a list of what SHE wants out of this!  That is Never to up a dose even if she is having uncomfortable wd's. and lessening by 5 miligrams EVERY week... She has had some discomfort today, but she called me and we laughed and she cryed and laughed.  She is so thankful for my helping her, that I cried.  Being able to call me and talk when she is scared or hurting seems to be very therapuetic for her.  Mind you, am a big goofball and was helping her laugh through some discomfort!  Tomorrow I am going to an NA meeting with her.  She seems like she is really working hard and staying focused!  I am also learning alot from Ya'll so thank you very much!!!
  

[mr.lucky66]

you sound like a good friend to her in a time of need. I hope you read my recent post where I wrote about how methadone shouldn't be given as an open ended treatment for vicodin/lortab addicts. I just want you to know that if she stays on it for any period of time more than a few months at any dose she will have a far more serious addiction that she had before. all best

[houston8372]

thats a bad thing about clinics the first thing they want to do is max you out.