Kicking a morphine habit

[DubeMechanic]

Howdy

Ive lurked here for a while now and find it very informative. Soooo.. heres my question.

Im currently on Duragesic patches, 100 mg/72 hrs and also taking 100 mg morphine ES tabs, usually 1 in the am, 1 in the pm.

I want off. Its starting to rule my life.

Whats the best way to taper?. If I cut a 100 mg morphine in half do I get 100 mg for 6 hrs or 50 mg for 12?

Originally I took these for back pain but now Im sure Im addicted as when Im out I feel like you know what. I get these from a friend so I cant get smaller dose meds.

Id much rather taper off as I cant miss work and cold turkey sucks a lot.. I kicked a crack habit 6 years ago and it wasnt fun but I made it (thank God).

Any suggestions?

[memikey]

Hi, DubeMechanic.

Listen, before I offer any suggestions, there are two things you need to know, and then one for me.  First, quiting "patches" is going to be somewhat of a rarity anywhere, so you may not get a lot of reliable responses with that part.  It's just a whole different route/release of delivery from either pills or injections, but logically speaking, I could only suggest to maybe focus on trying to switch completely to oral during the tapering phase.  Any changes in a patch dose or frequency has a huge lag time before it sets in, so that could get dicey.

Now, as for the 100mg morphine pills ... are you sure they aren't MS contin pills (continuous release), because that's an aweful lot of morphine for one dose, considering normal doses are around 5-15mg.  An intravenous dose of 100mg would kill a freaking horse.  So if they are indeed slow release pills, you should NOT be breaking them in half, because you risk losing the integrity of its rate of release when you do that and could get an overdose.

Anyway, these things should probably be established before continuing.  Good luck.

--memikey

[hippy]

post to mr michael he knows alot about the paches,

[DubeMechanic]

I had the same thought about the patches. I have gone 10 or so days without them using only the pills. I was pretty much ok then. Is 10 days without a patch enough to clear the fentanyl?

Are fentanyl and morphine the same?

The pills are green, say 100 on one side and E658 on the other. Ive done oxys before and these arent them.

Also Ive done 800 mg "pops" (sorry dont have the package or Id tell you more, you put this lollipop between your cheek and gum) but only do 1/2 at a time.

Ibe been doing this for about a year now. Started at 25 mg patches and moved up etc.

How much does breaking an ES cap screw it up. I have done 1/2s before, didnt really notice anything different, like a rush or anything. And Im not tooo stupid, just tried to stretch them out.

[DubeMechanic]

Oops, forgot to mention, the pills are cylindrical (sp) and fairly small. Actually, they are probably more blueish, speckeled like.

Thank you for your help.

[memikey]

Sorry for the long delay ...

Anyway, fentanyl is TOTALLY dif than morphine, in that it is 100% synthetic, and is so powerful that it is usually measured in micrograms instead of milligrams ... I think a normal dose is 100 ... but either way, it's an opiate, and can easily be substituted with morphine ... and if you can do that all orally, all the better.

Remember, though, after the patch is off, takes a day to really get out of your system.

As for the pills, even if they are slow release, it's probably okay to snap it in half (usally they don't want you to if they are not already factory "scored" down the middle) ... its crushing them up where its REALLY dangerous.

At any rate, if you want to taper off, try to go all oral, and gradually reduce your total overall daily mg rate by 1/10 each day for 9 days ... level out on that small small dose for another few days, then go cold turkey.  Yer gonna feel sore and tired and all that **** for a while, but tapering is the least painful way to go.  Good luck.

--memikey

[DubeMechanic]

OK, thats pretty much what I had thought, now I just need to motivate myself to actually stop. Always some excuse of course.

Is there a corelation between oxycodone/oxycontin and morphine? IOW is 10 mg oxycodone/oxycontin the "same" as 10 mg morphine? I ask because I wonder if I can replace the morphine with oxyetcetera. I can only get the morphine in 100 mg doses and as you said, theyre not really meant to be broken in half and Id need to break them in fifths or something.

Can I switch to say 80 mg oxycontin, then drop to 60, 40 etc? Or will I still WD from morphine and just get addicted to something else?

Thanks

[memikey]

I've never heard of "oxyetcetera", but anything with a "contin" in the name is a slow release type pill and not good for tapering.  Just plain Oxycodone or Hydrocodone (ie: Percocet or Vicodin) could be used, yes, but a normal single dose is 5-10mg (the contin's have higher dosages, because that dosage is spread out over time).  Also, for me anyway, both of these other drugs have much more of a "punch" than morphine, so be careful.

If you do plan to substitute, you will have to experiment for a few days, not taking anything else but the one type of oral medication, then once you know the overall daily dosage you need to feel "normal", then you have a starting point to begin tapering.  Once again, be careful switching to a completely different medication, morphine is pretty wimpy compared to most any other form of narcotic except maybe codiene.  It's just as addictive, though.

Best plan with any of the oxy's or hydro's when trying to find that "normal" level, is take 10mg ... see how long you can go before you feel you need a "fix", then take 10 more ... and so on for a few days.  Good luck

--memikey

[memikey]

Just wanted to add really quick, you also mentioned concern about getting cross-addicted to something else.  That's really not going to happen as long as you stay with the same class of drug (ie opiate anylgesics).  And besides, unless you drag your tapering out over more than 2 weeks, you wouldn't be getting addicted to that a different class of drug anyway (say if you were going to kick with just Valium or something to help you not feel so bad).

Anyway, opiates are opiates, your brain's opiate receptors will just be happy to be getting something to bond with.  Take care.

--memikey

[kell737]

Wow! 100 mg of morphine?  How long have you been taking that sweety?  That's a lot of morphine!   I would for sure not stop cold turkey if you've been taking that much.   You should talk to your doctor and see what he says about cutting the pill in half because from what I understand the time released forms are not supposed to be crushed, chewed, etc.  I could be wrong but I would ask first.  That may not be a good way to stop.   I wish you all the luck and keep us posted.  Don't give up!  

~kell

[GOD]

Hi, Everyone..

It seems like there is a little bit of confusion about dosages concerning Morphine / Oxycodone here!

I see that many Posters have indicated their shock at hearing of someone using over 100 Mgs per day of MS Contin--

100 Miligrams is NOT an outrageous dosage when it comes to Morphine or Oxy/hydrocodone. In fact, many chronic pain patients require 5 to 6 TIMES that dosage per day to relieve their pain. The human body adjusts and gets "Used to" dosages of opiates on a sliding scale. In little more than 6-8 months a doctor may adjust a patient's dosing up to 500-800 milligrams of Morphine Sulfate per 24 hour period to keep the patient relatively pain-free. You must remember that there is virtually NO LIMIT to what the human body can adjust to regarding opiates. A person's tolerance will adjust upwards exponentially varying upon the amount of time the patient has been recieving opiates.

For those of you suffering from an addiction of say 6-12 5/500 vicodins per day-- consider yourselves "Lucky" --I , in no way, mean to minimize your suffering and addiction, BUT- Many people have a "longer" road to walk than others when it comes to this addiction.

MrMichael67 -- A little help here? Maybe you should explain Opiate dosing levels to some of the posters here who may not understand what is "Normal" - I hope I got the point across, but your knowledge surpasses mine, and maybe you could do a little "Educating" here.... by the way, where have you been lately?!

I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I wanted new posters here who may be on what is considered a "HIGH" dose to not feel like they are unusual or looked down upon in any way.

Thanks, and bless you all!
Jess

[DubeMechanic]

Thanks for all the info.

Now all I need is the willpower to start. Im hoping this weekend. Ive heard the worst is over for morphine WD in 3 days, is that about right?

Thanks again all, esp memikey!

[kell737]

Withdrawls (depending amount and how long you have used) usually last about a week then gradually let up about the 6-7th day (for the average person)     Things get better, dont give up

~Kell

[mrmichael67]

First off, 100mg of morphine orally is not as much as you might think.  I was on 540mg a day.  Anyway, morphine, when taken orally, goes through your liver and then about 40% of your dose if left for use in the body.  IV, and you get the whole shebang.  That is why the dosages are so widely varied.  With the patches, can you get smaller than the 100ug/hr?  If you can, you should go down to the 75ug/hr and stay on the morphine.  Do that for a week, and then go to the 50ug/hr with the same dose of morphine.  Do that for another week and then go to the 25ug/hr (if you can get it) and stay on the morphine.  If you can't go smaller with the patches, then you are going to have to adjust your morphine dose.  The 100ug/hr patch is equivalent to 315mg to 404mg of morphine a day.  So, you would have to add that to the 200mg you are taking of the morphine.  So, I would say that you could start at around 500mg to 600mg of morphine a day.  I hope your eyes aren't popping out of your head, but this is what you have accomplished.  If you need to see for yourself, go to http://www.globalrph.com/narcotic.htm and check out the chart.  The level of fentanyl in your body, after taking the patch off, falls about 50% in around 17 hours.  After that, it goes faster.  But, that is neither here nor there.  You are going to have to start at the equivalent dose of morphine a day and start to taper.  DO NOT TRY COLD TURKEY!  You will feel like you want to die!  People talk about oxycontin being a nasty kick, morphine is worse.  If you can get the smaller doses of the patch, then I would strongly suggest you doing that.  That way you can knock one thing down at a time.  You could probably start taking 100mg morphine, two tabs, three times a day.  Stay there for a week, then drop one tab....preferrably your middle dose.  Stay for a week and drop one more.  Do it that way until you are down to 200mg a day.  At that point, things get sticky because you said you can only get the 100mg tabs.  What you really need to do is get something smaller and continue to taper like I said.  What I just told you should keep you for a while at least.  E-mail me at ***@**** and that way I can stay on top of your taper.  Just so you know, fentanyl is 50 to 100 times stronger than morphine.  You have to be careful with what you do.  Contact me!

[DubeMechanic]

The patches are potent. Unfortunately, I cant get smaller doses.

I didnt have one (100 mg patch)on for 10 days a month or so ago and felt more or less OK doing one 100 mg pill in the morning and one about 1 PM. Not as good as a patch though, now I see why. 10 days should of cleared the fentanyl out then, right? I was just on the morphine pills? If thats the case then I should be ok. Ill drop the patch and do 3 a day for a week, then 2 a day for a week, them 1/2 twice/day , much as I hate the cut an extended release pill in half.  Just have to see what that final 50 mg or so will be. Heh :)

Thanks!

[rainman]

I am a first timer so everyone stand and say "Hi, Rainman!" I have been taking morphine sulfate (MSIR) for a couple of months now. I am going through some rough times with my family and was given quite a bit of MSIR by a "friend". At first it helped me feel better....euphoric. But now I realize I have a problem. I do not take huge doses. Maybe 15mgs to 30 mgs once a day. Usually in the evening. I was taking them only every other day or every few days but now whenever I skip a day I have classic W/D symptoms. My question is since I take such a small amount and am able to usually make it through a day or so without taking any would it be best to just try to stop "cold turkey." I know my problem is small compared to many of yours but I welcome all of your advice. May God Bless.

[DubeMechanic]

You will probably be better off starting a new thread by posting a new question, this thread is pretty far down the list and not many folks will see it.

Thats a pretty low dose, 15 mg.. about what I want to drop to myself. At that point I would try to stop cold turky.

MrMichael amd others are far better informed that I though.

DM

[meiyou_wenti]

I was on 100 mg of extended morphine about 5 times a day..total 500 mg. This was for pain in my hip. I also used hydromorphone as a breakthrough  pain medication about 4-5 times a day until mid December..This went on for about a year. I have since had surgery and my hip replaced and the pain is virtually gone...but I can't seem to come off the morphine... I tried to go cold turkey and couldn't do it. My doctor then gave me 30mg twice a day for a week...that was okay...I could deal with it....But now I don't have any of those left. I am okay for about 2 or 3 days and then the withdrawal symptoms get really bad (and I take another 100 mg capsule)...I am cold(freezing) all the time, terrible bouts of depression, and then I get gross body movements happening..like I can't stay still..and my arms and legs start to move almost violently on their own. I have to see my doctor tomorrow and I am not sure what to tell him(other than the truth)....I know he will help me..he's a great guy....but other than strapping me to a bed for at least a week I don't know how I can do this. Has anyone any suggestions? I am a 59 year old male and I am really frightened of the power this drug has over me and over my emotional well being:(
thanks

[Etl88]

I'm in the same boat, friend. Currently prescribed 300 mg ms contin per day- 3 of those blue boys. I just lost my job (and health ins to subsidise the cost of these pills) and am looking at the military. Obviously, I dont want to go in without kicking this first. Its been 6 years at this dose - since a car accident in 03. I have legit neck pain, but my doc is simply giving me too much. Plus I take 4 mg klonopin and 20 mg valium daily too. Only took 200 mg ms yesterday- down 1/3 - about 18 hrs ago, and I'm not feeling that bad at all. I have a lot of pills - definitely enough to taper. I'm just gonna go without until I'm really hurting, then take maybe 50 mg to ease the sick. Then just try to live normally like this, hopefully needing less and less to feel normal until I dont need any. Although, the mathematical method above (one tenth less per day) might be better, although since I'm 18 hrs since last dose and dont feel that sick, I'm thinking: why take any if I dont seem to need it? I'll wait until I'm really hurting and then take as little as possible, I think. Hadn't really considered the benzos a problem, but I'm sure they will be. From your description, looks like you take the same ms contin as me: endo brand 100s, blue tabs with E658 on one side, and 100 on the other. These CAN be broken in half. The M is throughout the pill, so cutting a 100 into two yields two 50 mg ms contin tabs- you wont be destroying the time matrix. I've crushed em and eaten em with only a slightly bigger initial hit- but I'm sure my tolerance is very high- I've taken up to 450 mg in one day. This can be done. I'm sure the psych factor is just as serious as the physical factor.

[Etl88]

I'm in the same boat, friend. Currently prescribed 300 mg ms contin per day- 3 of those blue boys. I just lost my job (and health ins to subsidise the cost of these pills) and am looking at the military. Obviously, I dont want to go in without kicking this first. Its been 6 years at this dose - since a car accident in 03. I have legit neck pain, but my doc is simply giving me too much. Plus I take 4 mg klonopin and 20 mg valium daily too. Only took 200 mg ms yesterday- down 1/3 - about 18 hrs ago, and I'm not feeling that bad at all. I have a lot of pills - definitely enough to taper. I'm just gonna go without until I'm really hurting, then take maybe 50 mg to ease the sick. Then just try to live normally like this, hopefully needing less and less to feel normal until I dont need any. Although, the mathematical method above (one tenth less per day) might be better, although since I'm 18 hrs since last dose and dont feel that sick, I'm thinking: why take any if I dont seem to need it? I'll wait until I'm really hurting and then take as little as possible, I think. Hadn't really considered the benzos a problem, but I'm sure they will be. From your description, looks like you take the same ms contin as me: endo brand 100s, blue tabs with E658 on one side, and 100 on the other. These CAN be broken in half. The M is throughout the pill, so cutting a 100 into two yields two 50 mg ms contin tabs- you wont be destroying the time matrix. I've crushed em and eaten em with only a slightly bigger initial hit- but I'm sure my tolerance is very high- I've taken up to 450 mg in one day. This can be done. I'm sure the psych factor is just as serious as the physical factor.