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538697 tn?1218411482

Legal question regarding suboxone

Hi...

I hope someone can answer this question.  I started the Suboxone treatment yesterday with a horrible outcome.  Long story short, I ended up finding another detox location closer to my home to go through instead of the one I went to yesterday.  The med office wanted me to come in on a daily basis to get my dose for the day.  Mind you, I paid, up front for the pills.  I got my prescription filled, then decided that I didn't want to do it that way, and came home with my prescription.  
I don't need anyone writing saying that the docs do that for safety, blah blah blah.  I know this.  I get the reasons why they do it.  My situation is different though and I'm not willing to play by their rules.  Might sound bad to you, but I'm being honest.  I plan on taking the pills WHEN they are needed.. only when I'm symptomatic.  After a week to 10 days, I then plan on weening myself off the Suboxone.  I understand that the withdrawal from that is not as bad as with Lortab.  I started taking the Lortab because of kidney stones, not because I was trying to get high or party or whatever.  I became physically addicted because of a medical situation.
My question is this..... can I get into any LEGAL trouble for not returning to the clinic?  I did not sign anything nor was I an inpatient.  The "rules" at the clinic were that I was to get the RX filled, bring it back to the clinic and let them dispense it to me daily.  I just got the RX filled and drove home.  I'm going to do this MY way.  
I just don't want the cops showing up causing problems for me.  Maybe a bit paranoid.  But right now, with the way I feel, that's the last thing I need.
Thanks.  
Thanks in advance.
134 Responses
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538697 tn?1218411482
thank you
Helpful - 1
Avatar universal
I would like to know how kecia made out myself.

Wantoffmeds - - You probably should start your own thread.........Try the Post Question box - - (the one with a green background) - - and submit a story. You will get some help and suggestions by doing it that way. And good luck to you.............
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
I need some advice! I'm new here. I decided to sign up because I feel so alone in all of this and have no one to talk to about it.  I have been on suboxone for almost four years now. Taking 4 mgs a day now. Started at 8mgs. Well, today, I decided that was it. I would never touch another sub. I made it until 8:00 pm (a full 24 hours) but had to take one for the w/d, mostly because I was at work. The w/d wasn't that bad, mostly just sweats and some back ache. But the worst part was after I took approximately 1.5 mg of sub I started withdrawaling at about midnight.  Which was only four hours after taking it.  My main symptom was severe right arm pain. It scared me, so I took another 2 mg, and now feel fine.

Was my arm pain caused by increased blood pressure due to the detox? And why did the withdrawal begin after only one day off the subs? Everything I've read suggests withdrawal doesn't start for days after stopping them? And was 4mg to 1.5 too large of a taper?

Any help would be great, thanks!
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Don't worry, I did the same thing as you. Went to the doctor, filled the script and never returned for "induction," like he told me to.  I did not like the doctor so I found one closer, as you did.

There were no legal consequences, however, I did get an outrageous bill for ONE visit, which was almost 300 dollars.  I never paid the bill, and was too embarrased to submit it through my insurrance company, so now it's in collections. I suppose I will have to pay it off soon.
Helpful - 0
538697 tn?1218411482
I'm doing good.... still having a bit of trouble with some hot flashes and some minor discomforts... but nothing to significant.  I'm hanging in there just fine.... I'm really hoping that by this time next week, I can close this chapter of the my life and get back to being my old self again... although, after nearly a year, to be honest, I don't know if I remember what my old self was actually like... hee hee.
Thanks for all your concern.  If you'd like to keep in touch with me, shoot me a message and i'll give you my email address.
Take care everyone....

Kecia
Helpful - 0
480448 tn?1426948538
I was thinking the same thing!!!  I've been waiting for an update too!

Maybe start a new thread, Kecia....that you can update when you can???

Hope it is going well!!!!

HUGS!
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
JRG
I was just wondering how you were doing after your jump. Please come back and post your experience because it will help so many others.

I hope you are feeling good and you are one of those positive sub stories. They are out there they are just few and far between.

Take care,
Jackie
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
WOW , what a long thread...I would start another one in the morning, so we can keep up..It is ok, to not type things right, etc..at this time..Gosh i read some of my old posts, and was thinking i needed hooked on phonics..None of that matters here...The only thing that matters, is that the outcome, is no more pills..
Congrats to you....Sorry you were so misinformed on sub..But after this is all done, U will be able to help so many others
Stay Strong
god bless
r2r
Helpful - 0
538697 tn?1218411482
"Feeling on lazy and worthless... "  I don't even know what I was trying to say there... maybe "feeling only lazy and worthless?"  I guess I needed that nap.
Helpful - 0
538697 tn?1218411482
yep... i've been successful so far too.  This thread is way to long and so I understand why your coming in at the end and not reading all of it... but i've done great so far and i'm on day 4 with no meds.  Feeling on lazy and worthless... hee hee.
I managed to walk to the park with hubby and the little one to fly the remote control airplane.... talk about exhausting.  But we did it and had fun.
I'm off for a nap...

Kecia
Helpful - 0
447130 tn?1225470866
You cannot get in any trouble Legally for not returning to the clinic. You will just loose the money you paid.
I understand your reasons for wanting to sub your way but some of these dos are highly trained in addiction treatment and it may be worth your while giving it a 2nd look.
Your other option is to quit cold turkey which I think is what you are looking to do.
I will say I used Sub to quit pain pills and have had great success with it. I highly recommend the program but everyone is different and I understand that. You do what's best for you as long as it gets you to a point of sobriety.
Best of luck!!
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Wow Henery that was wonderful...thanks. Kecia, I am so happy for you.  I can't wait until I can do things again.  Right now my mind wants to, but I just can't do it yet physically. I am on day 12 and still shaking.  I am doing cold turkey off dilaudid.  I haven't seen any one here coming off dilaudid, so I don't know when or if I will ever stop shaking.  Love to you all Jerri...how do you know the emails.???    
Helpful - 0
538697 tn?1218411482
Gosh... sometimes I hate this program... I had this whole thing typed up and then I spotted an error and went to backspace and the program sent me back to the previous page... losing everything I had written.... GRRRRR
So anyway... I woke up this morning with REALLY crawly skin.  And a bit of the sweats.  I don't know if it's just me... THINKING I had the sweats ... because my husband said he was hot and sweaty too... I think maybe it's just more humid here in California than I'm used to.  But I had a full nights sleep last night... although I didn't go to bed last night until nearly 2:30... I slept until the little guy woke me up at 7:30 am.  That's 5 continuous hours... haven't done that in a year.  
As far as energy, i'm still listless, but i'm FORCING myself to make spaghetti today ... my husband is so excited.  He sees a glimmer of the wife of days gone by.  I haven't really cooked for year and it's something my whole family has missed.  They think I am the best cook in the world and they've all missed my famous spaghetti... complete with the best darned garlic bread you'll ever put in your mouth (thanks to a little secret my italian friend clued me in on).  So i'm trying to behave normally.. doing things that I used to do before getting ill, but i'm still having to force myself.  I have to admit that I don't think it's just the meds thats making feel this way.  Remember, i've done nothing but lay in bed for almost a year.  My stamina and energy level is way down regardless of the lack of meds.  So I think it's a combination of things.
But I feel so mentally awesome.  I see this light coming back into my husbands face.  For so long I just saw him looking at me with pity.  It was a disgusting feeling.  Because you still want to a wife and friend and everything else that goes with being a married couple and I just felt his pity on me.  I hated it.  He's been joking more with me and "busting my chops" ... poking fun at me.  We're on our way back.  YaY.  I have such a better outlook on things as each day goes by without the meds.  I have to say, this has been a true blessing for me.  I was terrified of the detox from the lortab.  I know what I went through 6 years ago when I first got sick.  This was the first time I had ever had any sort of illness, REAL illness and I just did what the doctors told me to do.  It wasn't until my friend who is a nurse told me that I could tell them NO and ask what other options I had.  But I was just doing what they told me and they had me on so much vicodin that my liver shut down.  Then they put me on methadone.  I never thought about the long term affect it was going to have on me.  I didn't realize that my baby was going to be born addicted to methadone.  I didn't realize I was going to have this 5 month ordeal of weening off the methadone.  And 6 years ago, there was very little to help with the w/d's... I was more than miserable.  Its why I was so terrified of detoxing from the lortab.  
Anyway..... like I said, this feels like it's coming to an end.  I know I might still have icky days, but my mind is in such a better place.  
And thanks for the explaination above.  My husband and I sat and read it together and actually understood it.  Imagine... the biology and chemistry FAILURES.  Understanding something so complex.  Only because of the EDUCATOR.  
Thanks big H... i'll either email you or post again later.  Did you get my email?  Because this post has been critisized for being too long, perhaps our conversations should continue in personal emails?  
To everyone who's been on this road with me and helped me through it... I can't tell you how much it's meant to me.  To those of you who've exchanged your personal emails with me... thanks, we'll keep in touch and to anyone who cares to keep in touch with me.. PM me... and i'll gladly give you my email addy.
Take care everyone and God bless.  
Helpful - 0
569676 tn?1315641158
Kecia!!!!!!!!!
Sorry its been a bit since I last posted, but I had to work a flight...  Simple trip, Left Budapest at 5pm Friday, Worked the flight to Kuwait, sat on the ground for three hours, worked the flight back to Buda, and its 06:00am and Im back in my hotel. What a job!  :-)

You never cease to amaze me! And I love reading your posts... I can tell you and I are a lot alike personality wise... Kinda scary that theres another one of me runnin around out there!  :-)

You are truly doing great, and its a great sign that that nasty creepy crawly skin **** is subsiding!  As far as the lethargy, next time your little guys wants some strawberry milkshake malt balls, pick yourself up some Vitamin B12, the sublingual form  works the best and fastest.  Just gives ya a little kick when ur down, I use it when Im working really long flights.... Can u imagine 16 hours in the air?!?!?!?!? Ugh!

I wanted to respond to something you said in your posts awhile back that I forgot about.  You didnt seem to understand why they clinic wanted you feeling sick and in wd when you came in to see them.  Henry to the rescue!!!! Let me explain....

Buprenorphine is a partial opiate agonist/antagonist.  Opiate agonists are the drugs that fill our Mu Receptors, and make us feel wonderful and give pain relief.  Opiate antagonists are the chemicals that reverse that feeling, or block the receptors from getting it.

Suboxone is a combination of Buprenorphine and Naloxone.  Naloxone is a PURE antagonist, also known in its IV form as Narcan.... Given to opiate overdose patients.  Most people believe that u must be in wd when you start Suboxone because of the Naloxone in the pill.... This is not the case.

When taken orally, Naloxone has a Very poor if any bioavailability which means it can not be absorbed into the blood orally.  Which is why its given IV in emergency situations.  Since Suboxone can and has been abused, mainly by crushing and injecting it, naloxone has been added as a safe guard.  If you crush a sub and inject it, you are also injecting naloxone which renders it useless.  Pretty smart stuff eh?  Wait theres more....

The reason you must be in mild to moderate wd's when starting sub, is the Buprenorphine part of the medicine is not only an opiate, but it has its own antagonistic properties... How can I explain this......

Picture a football field covered with holes.... These holes are your MU receptors. A person who isnt taking full opiates has all these open holes, and then they take a sub.  The Bupe fills those holes turns on the receptor and gives pain relief and euphoria.

Now we look at a person who has been taking lets say morphine or lortab.  The holes in their football field each have a bowling ball in them (Morphine filling the receptors) they are feeling good.  They take a dose of sub, and the sub acts like a shovel. This is because buprenorphines antagonistic properties are stronger than its agonistic properties. The Shovel (Bupe) digs out those morphine remnants and the receptors (Holes) are now empty throwing you into whats known as preciptated wd.  Its the worst possible wd you can have.  Its like taking a weeks worth of wd's and giving them to you at once, its a terrible feeling.

They want you to experience mild wd's as that is a sign that those receptors are opening up, they are vacant.  This way the docs can be assured that when they give you bupe it goes and fills them in with Bupe bowling balls, and makes you feel better instead of digging out whatever was in there making you feel like dying.

Make sense???  :-) And to think that was the EASY explanation!  lol

I am glad you are feeling better Kecia.  You have come so so so far!  And I can smell that chicken all the way here in budapest....  Wait a minute, I think that was goulash.  Oh well....  :-)

Hugs,
Henry
Helpful - 0
401095 tn?1351391770
agree with avis and lifesaride...new people are checking out the forum every day...this is not a good example of a post for people to see...lots of bickering and negativity.....Lets see if my post can be the last?...will someone have to put in another 2 cents?  this is not what this is about....hatekidneystones.I doubt this is what u intended to happen when u posted...but sh!t happens!  LOL... u could start another post to have ur needs addressed....we will support u on a new post and let this one die
Helpful - 0
538697 tn?1218411482
you kill me :o)  

It's all a little ridiculous isn't it???  Your comments have gone unnoticed thus far... but I see your sense of humor and I like it.  Take care.
Helpful - 0
480035 tn?1222366164
Hey everyone! It was partly cloudy here today, or was it partly sunny, maybe mostly sunny, or a lil cloudy. anyway, it just was something today...
Helpful - 0
175734 tn?1225134440
Just hang in there.....Though you will feel bad for a couple days.....You will make it...

Good job !!!!
Helpful - 0
199177 tn?1490498534
   COME ON GUYS everyone really needs to agree to disagree !!This really has gone on long enough . We are all different people we see things different ways it makes us who we are . Celebrate that we are  all different that we are here to help each other .Let the animosity go .....
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Sigh what a terrible thread.  Who cares whether you are dependent or addicted....I wish you all would read my posts .  Love to all and good luck.  I am going cold turkey after 20 something years of pain pills.  I have terrible pain every day from a lot of diseses.  My primary care doctor told me I would die of an overdose if I didn't stop the dilaudid, and muscle relaxers. Some days I was taking them every 2 hours ( on the advice of the doctor at the pain clinic that the primay care doctor sent me to)OMG doctors...I have a heart doctor a pain doctor a lung doctor a sleep doctor...and they all send their findings to my primary care doctor.  I THINK I am an addict but who cares......I just wonder what is going to stop a really bad day of pain with out the dilaudid....I had worn it out....There is nothing stronger and I wouldn't want to go stronger.  Yes I counted my pills...because I was afraid of the pain. Maybe if it comes back really hard I will just take a handful of some of my heart pills.  I am on 18 different prescriptions a day......How can I feel sorry for any of you ....I never had the pleasrue of getting high off my drugs...but would do anything to get them  because the pain is so bad.  I am on day 11 of WD...and I am still shaking inside and out...that's why the typos..  By the wat I am almost 66 and agrandmother and great grand mother to 18.  I have a loving husband ....and ya know what  I love everyone of you ....I have gotten so much help here thank you   Love   Jerri
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
     Well, I just read this entire post from the beginning, and I went through such a wide range of emotions.  I started off thinking that Kecia was just kidding herself, and that it is so stupid to only take Sub when you feel like it and without a doctor's help.  But as I read her words, my thoughts started to change.  I realized that I was only jealous, because I wish that I had the strength to only stay on Sub for a few days, because my WD would be so much better.  I completely understand why Kecia turned to Sub when she may not have needed it.  People kept saying that because she did this, she must be more than physically addicted.  That makes absolutely no sense.  Withdrawals are painful, and they are exactly what drove me to the doctor to get my Sub script.
     People keep asking what makes Kecia different.  I will tell you exactly what makes her different.  Kecia spent the year of her life that she was "addicted" lying in bed, with pain from kidney stones.  She wasn't walking around, using pills, and feeling good enough to participate in activities.  She was in hospitals receiving pain medication from doctors, and she didn't have a chance to develop an emotional connection to them.  One of her earlier posts said that it wasn't even enough to take the pain away, so she continued to hurt.  When her body started to heal from the kidney stones, and she was no longer in pain, SHE REACHED OUT TO HER DOCTOR to find out what needed to be done to get off the meds.  SHE DID NOT DESIRE THEM for anything else, other than for pain, which was gone.  IT WAS HER DOCTOR that turned her onto Suboxone.
     THIS is how it is different.  And if you are all jealous of that, as I am, then that is our problem.  This girl is not heading for relapse, she is not heading for anything other than being completely fine.  And the problem we all have with her is that WE wish we could feel that way.  So congratulations Kecia!
Helpful - 0
538697 tn?1218411482
Lordy bee....... heck.  I am so lethargic today.  I literally had to drag myself out of bed to get the little guy off to school.  I was hoping that yesterday was the worst of it.... but apparently not.  The cool thing is that I am not in any discomfort... just totally useless as a human being... ha.  Oh well.  What are you going to do?  I'm about to head back to bed and see if a couple more hours of rest will help... but I'm doing ok other than that.  Can't believe it's day 4.  I feel sort stupid at the moment because I said some rather silly things in PM to someone who continued to berate me for what I believe about myself.  It's just like... go deal with YOUR own issues and leave me the EF alone.  Like I need THAT right now???  Hello.
So I feel like a big fat lump of grease wiggling in the bottom of a pan.... ewww... now that wasn't nice at all was it?  But it's a good analogy.
Until later.  Ciao.
Helpful - 0
538697 tn?1218411482
Thanks... just got home from dinner.  Is the appetite thing going to last long???  I suppose I could lose five or so pounds... but dang... I love to eat and I sure am missing FOOD right now.  But nothing, and I mean, nothing sounds good and then when I try and eat... yuck.
So... I am thinking that tomorrow will be a good day.  I'm going to try and go to bible study in the morning.  After I get the little guy off to school, but not sure if I'll have the energy... although all the women in my study group are so amazing and so supportive, I'm sure they'll make me feel like a million bucks even if I showed up in sweat pants and ratty t shirt.
Until tomorrow.

Kecia
Helpful - 0
175734 tn?1225134440
Got home real late tonite.....But as soon as i got home i jumped on line to see how you were doing......It is really awesome that things are working out for you.....I am 100% behind you....The more i read the messed up comments , the more i cheer for you...
The fact that you did all the things you did today makes it pretty clear that you are heading the right way.....

Your story really gives me hope....
Helpful - 0
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