Maintaining Sobriety

Dr. Steve                                                     What is the best way to beat this disease of a addicition and stay clean and sober?  Can you give us some basic points to follow.
                                         Thanks in advance,
                                              Daniel                                                                                                                                                Readers,                                                         You all have a problem with me calling Tom (this is what he went by when I came here as "doc Dan" months ago) on various inconsistencies in his treatment plan or lack of one. This my friends is the guy is a "piece of work." His failures or lack of real work on his addicition is what disturbs me. His continual glorification of his drug abuse. This guy is not about ways to stay clean and sober, but his efforts are about ways to keep this disease active by methods of reducing withdrawal symptoms and ways to remove acetaminophen from vicodin to make it less harmful to your vital organs. This guy is about one failure after another. I am over my limit of words. But I am open for discussion. Thanx                                                                                                                            I counsel multiple felony drug offenders. And work with state probation and parole criminal justice departments. These guys see the error of their ways  and use every opportunity to utilise relapse prevention techniques. Lets Discuss this friends. Thanks DAn..

[Danielincc]

I am about trying to help people learn ways to put this disease in remmission. I understand that are some people here that try as hard as they possibly can to stay clean and sober. I think these participants should be aplauded. Withdrawal should be used as a tool to help you stay clean and sober. We should try to stay clean by genuinely working to achieve this.                                                                                        The first thing I did my friends was remove the problem. That was to remove my source of hydrocodone and short acting opiates(hydro,codeine,oxycodone,etc.). I had pain issues. These issues were resolved by incorporating a long acting opiate into my treatment. Short acting opiates are what causes all the problems with your receptors. When I starting using opiate agonist treatments to resolve my pain and addicition problems I started getting better almost immediately. I finished my education and got a decent job. I no longer had to deal with shady elements or methods of obtaining medicine. Go to any length to do the right thing. Do not let your addiction dictate to you that your monkey needs feeding. Get a hold of your free will that your higher power gave you. I am not trying to hurt anyone here. I just feel it's necessary to try and open some closed eyes and ears here at this forum.
Maliciousness that was directed to me, by various readers does not bother me. I only speak to people who are not trying to beat this disease.>> People who continually feeding their disease by blatant drug abuse. Again, I applaud the people who are working a program. My best of luck to you! You cannot beat any addiction by half - hearted attempts at sobriety. We must utilise sober contacts,a good sponser and as many AA/NA meetings as it takes to maintain sobriety. Not sitting behind a computer screen for your support. This type of support is good, but it should be last on your list.                                                          Tom, what happened to your program? Are you still attempting to get clean and sober. I want only good things to happen with you friend. I know your attempts @ MMT failed for what ever reason. Have you just given up @ your attempts of sobriety? Do not give up. What happened with your attempts at getting buprenorphine?  I do not mean to offend anyone! Work a solid program! Be Spiritual!(treat others like you want to be treated)
Best of Luck to ALL..
Daniel...

[Danielincc]

Quick Comment! Maintaining Sobriety>> I did not mean for the comment under>> for dr. Steve to get printed. I was venting my frustrations from reading peoples comments or responses to the "disease of addiction thread." I only wanted to start a discussion on maint. sobriety.  I have strong feelings about certain issues. Not working on a solid program is one of them. The guys and girls I work with want their sobriety, and they work very hard for it. WHen I see half hearted attempts, it's  very disturbing simply put! I apoligise to Tom! But I still think he is quilty of not working a solid recovery plan. If I am wrong, well excuuusse me!
Daniel.

[jule1]

Daniel - I truly do not understand why you are here.  You seem to believe that this forum can't help cure our addictions you do not agree with any of us on what we need to get better you insist that your way is the right way.  I really do not think you are being honest with us about why you are here.  If you think you are here to help people well I am sorry but your way dosen't seem to be what people here want.  You have offered your help and if someone wants to do it your way they know who to talk to so why can't you leave it at that.  If you need help we would all help you I am sure.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I got back from Mexico early this morning, took a nap and now am at the screen again.  I always figured DanielCC and Doc Dan were one and the same by the way the posts sounded.  I have sensed a lot of frustration, envy, anger and resentment(FEAR for short) in his posts.

Dan, why have you always singled out Thomas in your critiques here?  You must consider him redoubtable and worthy of your "help".  Why not just stick to your own program and become the epitomy of sobriety before working our programs for us?  I could go on but won't.  I'm in too good a mood right now.  J.B.

[Frank Lee]

I apologize to the board before hand, because the stench from this guy angers me so. I won't stoop to the level of answering his posts again, but I have to get this out of my system.

It's your way or the highway ain't it. The belief you espouse that only through meetings and higher powers can we poor deluded drug abusers obtain sobriety is the reason this board exists - because it doesn't work for us all pardner. Some of us need to communicate with others in writing; some of us aren't through working through our addictions and most of us are honest. If that means we admit liking drugs and not always avoiding them then so be it. Deal with that.

Come after me Daniel, read my posts if you want to find a hypocrite who can't come clean. But spare me your self-serving phony **** about caring for folks on this board - man you don't even understand the level of support on this board. And, you got discovered so you come clean and think you have any credibility? How dare you question the motives of people who have sincerely helped others? If you were in the business of really caring you

[jule1]

Ihave to apologize to you all. I probally would have been upset if I were you all and read my post.  Daniel is not worth us getting angry over but when I read his post I found myself becoming so angry because this forum was my godsend.  I shouldn't have even bothered to reply he is useless and not worth my time but you all are therefore this apology.  Hugs, Jules

[katie r]

Since most of us don't give a rat's ass about what doc dan, danielcc....whatever...I have chosen to hijack this thread. If this irritates you,Dan...then so be it. God knows you've irritated us enough.
JB!!! Are you the one with the celluitis? I had a problem with it about a year ago....long story made short....it started in my lower legs, moved up my body till it got into my lungs and I ended up in the hospital. My legs were beet red and swollen huge and hurt! I have rheumatoid arthritis also...but my rheumatolagist said the redness and swelling had nothing to do with my arthritis. My family dr put me on lasix, and dicloxacill. This all started in oct of 2000, i ended up in the hosp in march 2001. My legs stayed red and swollen all that time. Finally abut a month after I got out of the hospital...around April..it went away! It's stayed away all this time till about a week ago...then boom. Got up one day and my legs were sore, red, swollen and hot to the touch. I took my temp...it was 102. So I went in the dr. and I'm back on lasix and dicloxacill. My question to you...if you're the one that has this problem also is.......what causes this to happen? And how does your dr.treat it? Any help you can give me, would be so very much appreciated!

[katie r]

When I feel sad and hopeless at night..I come to this forum and read the posts. All of them, over and over. When I get to ones that Thomas wrote,I find myself smiling,laughing and most times in a much better mood. When I get to your posts I feel anger, resentment and downright disgust. I have also noticed that seems to be same reaction the others in the forum have. Thomas makes us smile....you irritate the **** out of us. So my question to you is....why do you keep coming here? Don't give me some long detailed answer about how I'm diseased and in denial, blah blah blah.....just tell me...why do you come here? You've made it clear that you think we're a bunch of losers.....we've made it clear that we think you're a pompous ass.
There are other addiction forums on the internet....maybe someone in one of them could use your advice (God, have mercy on their soul) but I don't think anyone here wants your advice.
Looking forward to your answer Danny Boy...why do you keep coming here?

[skipper]

i guess i did something wicked to deserve all this...
first we have an obnoxious adolesent (adolescent) who decided to use a nick-name
of Hunter S Thompson's for his handle and now yet another posting
from eveyone's favorite rectum, danny-boy! danny-boy you have all
the charm of a slightly damp beer fart on a hot and humid morning
in the summertime!

[katie r]

I was doing some internet browsing and came across this site that lists several diseases and healh problems. I noticed they had some good reading on IBS. I know you've probably read almost everything about it but thought this might have some info for you.
Here it is
http://www.healthcyclopedia.com/index.html

How have you been feeling?

[kstuebin]

He's back!!  But he reminded me of a question I had re pain killers. Although, I'm primarily a benzo abuser, I have been known to take the occasional narcotic and I wonder what does happen when all that tylenol hits your liver.  I mean some of these pain meds have 500 mg., so if you take just 4 that's 2000 mg!!! Gotta be some toxicity there. So this question is for those of you using large doses of pain meds (usually for medicinal purposes, Danny Boy!):  Do you get liver damage? And I agree they should remove the acetaminophen and replace it with aspirin or ibuprofen. I won't even take over the counter acetaminophen.  If I need an OTC pain killer, it's aspirin or Motrin.

[Beth]

<font face="arial" color="navy">Dan, first of all, stop calling me your "friend" because I assure you I am not. You are the lamest excuse for a "counselor" I have ever seen. Your ceaseless tirade of causing disstention and anger among this tightknit group is unnacceptable. So <i>what</i> if Thomas is actually <b>honest</b> about the fact that he likes using? NEWSFLASH dumbass, we <i>all</i> do, which is how we all became addicts in the first place. Now some people here are in the most vulnerable state of realizing and trying to address the problem. I myself and clean and strong and have NO illusions about freakshows like yourself who are blatantly and obviously jealous of Thomas' ability to help us. We listen to Thomas because he says the things most of us are scared to, and cares enough to endlessly pursue ways to help us get clean.

I don't know if your own addiction is so bad that you have to justify it be trying to "help" others or if you really are a gutless, tactless moron, but take your "advice", insert it in a syringe, and stick it. We do not have room for trolls like you on this board. Someone who actually needed support and guidance was chated out of hs chance to post his question because of your ignorance and willful animosity.

I am more than proud to say that...<P>
<h3>Thomas was my istigator for becoming clean! God bless him!</h3><P>
<h1>We Love Thomas!!!</h1><P>

Shea, Jenny- thanks for your sweet comments on my picture! WW, Jbear, Cindi, everyone...y'all hang tight! People like Dan never win and people like us who finish the race (no matter how long it takes) always do.

[Durty]

Please go away. I'm not sure if you think you are helping or exactly what your motivation is, but it doesn't have any purpose here.  I read these posts, like many "ghost readers" for motivation and help.  Yours do the complete opposite.
No need to reply to this, as I (like most) now ignore anything you post.

[katie r]

You go girl! I agree with everything you said! I'm not clean yet....but Thomas has helped me realize that there are people out there who are having one hell of a time getting clean and I'm not alone. I used to think I was just weak.....thanks to Thomas I now realize that there are other people just like me struggling with this addiction. I've always felt so alone until I found this forum. Reading the success stories helps and reading the stories from people that are still using also helps....I know I'm not alone. Thomas has never made a secret of his love of hydrcodone and I'm not making a secret of mine.
But like you said.....that love is what brought all of us here to this forum, that love is how I came across some of the greatest friends I've ever had.
Beth....congrats on getting clean!

[cindi]

Jesus,,,,again,,,,ok  when i went to treatment the counselors there were all obnoxioux..some of the females in the treament center were told not to wear make-up because it really is a mask,,,,i was almost kicked out because on several occasions they were all up my ass about this or that...or God forbid I should talk to a man.....i was trying to sleep with him or them or what ever...true story,,,i had been using demerol and other opiates for a long time  IV IM SQ U name it I did it...they felt at the treatment center every move I made was drug seking  including my headaches i suffered practically on a daliy basis....next move and this is the GOD"S truth,,I almost ided in that center because they did not believe that I had abdominal pain.....I was so sick i fainted,,they said it was post withdrawal or some ****....the next day my **** was brown, my belly was swollen, my skin and eyes were yellow...and the pain was God awful..they told me I was 3 days away from being discharged so see my doc when i get home.....I knew wha was wrong with me,,,,I told the fuckers I knew what was wrong because I was a nurse.....they told me i was not a nurse while in rehab...i demanded to be taken to the nearest hospital....or they would have a heavy lawsuit on their hands  they did not even let the docs at the center see me...well upon admission to the ER I was so jaundiced and dehydrated from not eating and puking they started the old IV  hmmm imagine that.after the ******* told me i was a wlking pin cushion .they found a vein....and did all kinds of testing,,told me my Gall bladder was so inflammed, and my common bile duct was so blocked that if i did not have surgery or left the ER i was jeopardizing my life,,,,i had been masking my symptoms for so long that without the meds I started showing symptoms......well,,this was a little town in BFE and ain't no way that some doc i never heard of was slicing me.lika a dead pig they practice on...i went back to the rehab that night..signed out AMA,from the ER,puked all over the ***** counselors shoes  told her i'm packing up and leaving go ahead and call the cops...the only reason i went was so i didn't go to jail anyway  went home and had surgery.....they are all alike,,,they play God, play Doc, play know it all and geuss what  they keep up the facade for their own title....They damn near killed me because i was a drug seeker,,,GO FIGURE>>>>> so ONCE AGAIN>>>>>they are all like that....a few months later i relapsed....i got clean again  no counselors up my ass, to call me names...I actually had one counselor that told me and a few other females that talked to the "guys" there that if we took the dicks out of our mouths and cotton out of our ears we would hear and speak more clearly..this guy was 6'6 and 300 and some pounds,,but guess who told him he needed to get the **** out of his mouth.and i was 5'4 and weighed 120 lbs at the time .you see,,i will not be talked to like some kind of street slut,,,or low life,,,and this is how we are treated..there is noone on this earth that intimidates me to the point where instead of gaining self esteem they try to strip you of every little bit of dignity that is left in you...not for me babe  thanks anyway....you don't scare someone into getting clean or belittle them,,,,,,you support them as Thomas has done... Thomas has nothing but the best of intentions.....and by his own admission he is not completely clean so the **** what....he doesn't wish bad on others...what he does here is good.....he, JB, and the few others I met here when i first came here loved me back to life and i say that all the time..i don't give a rat's ass who uses what......Thomas has offered his help, his experiences and he has shared his inner most feelings about all of this with us on the forum and if someone chooses to get clean thomas is there to help him whether it be with his recipe or by love and guidance  I have to admit I thought Thomas was one of the very few counselors i have met that had any sense of the real world..turns out he is not a counselor at all...but if he were he would be the perfect example of what one should be..yes...DRUGS kill... but so does low self esteem, insecurity and when people are reaching out for help a slap on the hands or a throat luggie in the eye is not what they deserve in return....I am usually one to try and keep my Italian temper under control.....and I also have been known to come to the defense of those I care about...Thomas can and does speak for himself but in his absence from the board the past day or so I think that anyone who wishes to bash him should wait until he is here to defend himslf..as far as the posting under differnt names...Thomas did post as Tom many moons ago and because of his rpoblems with his cookie he had to post as patrick then then back to Thomas....however he always,,always revealed who he truly was..no pretending here....so......as a very mature 41 year old professional person with only one thing left to say,,,,if you want to pick on Thomas,,,,,,,BITE ME!!!!!!

[jule1]

Skipper you totally crack me up!!!  Katie how are things?  When do you go in for your surgery?  Hope you are feeling ok!!!

Jenny - E-mail me at ***@**** I need to ask you something.

[Francoise]

Hi Y'all:

I think that Daniel, or whatever his name is, is exhibiting a classic over-compensation for feelings of inadequacy. Do you think I'm maybe on the right track here? I mean the man used THREE posts to vent his spleen about Thomas. That's a little much in my book. But these type of folk seem to think that if they push everyone else down a few notches, they'll seem that much higher than they are. It's a self-delusion, of course, but there it is, the spectre of a (presumably) grown man pumping sunshine up his own trousers. Pathetic. I don't know this Daniel character; perhaps I've not been paying too much attention to the creep in the year or so I've been a part of this great group. But I do notice that he has done a classic hit and run. He said his piece and now he's being very, very quiet. You reckon he knew how the board would react before he made the post?

Best to you all as always,

Francois

[skipper]

Francoise:
I agree with your speculation about danny-boy's problem. i had a
several moments of idle thinking time this morning and imagined him
in a huge pickup truck. he was so small in size that he could just
barely peek out over the steering wheel while driving....... then
i finished my paper work an flushed.

[cindi]

LOL  Skipper  you never cease to amaze me with your eloquence  LOL  gotta love you.....francoise,  as always nice to hear from you......you are both very precise and very to the point    good hearing from you both   love to all  cin

[SHOTSY]

Daniel- are you a church-going man or even have a higher power? What about hate the sin but love the sinner? Your ability to down grade Thomas has a disturbing focal point. Are you secretly attracted to or jealous of a person who can be so forth right, honest and utterly human. I know I am. But for you to admit that may speak volumes about the 'real' you.The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple. Pain is inevitable but suffering is optional. People come to alleviate some of their suffering. Your comments seem to have the intent of propagating Thomas' suffering. My contention with you is that your 'bedside manner' - for lack of a better word- sucks. Thomas know you are safe in the arms of the fold.

[Beth]

The majority has spoken... hopefully Dan will take it to heart. I know I speak for everyone here when I say Daniel- don't let the door hitcha where the good Lord splitcha, and Thomas...kick up your feet, grab a beer, stay awhile.

If I can nose my way into posting a new thread tonight/tomorrow, I'm going to explain in detail how I got clean and what I encountered along the way! Getting all my thoughts together so I can share with y'all.

Everyone have a wonderful week...remember to lean on the Lord...He's the only one who'll always lean with you but also hold you up unfailingly.

[SHOTSY]

I think that would be wonderful. I'd really like to know all the details and make whatshisname realize your the shiny angel who did do it-your way.

[cindi]

I have been thinking and thinking about what dan said about Thomas's ways of making detox easier,,,,God,,that is so  so wrong......it made me think of my own mom God rest her soul,,,,she smoked for many many years....and suffered for it in the end.....did she deserve to be hooked up to a ventilator, so sick and so weak  did she deserve to suffer.?.when she tried to quit smoking there was no patch no nicorette nothing at all,,she could not do it,,finally five years before she died the patch was able to use the patch,,,,,and she took full advantage of it,,,and made her qutting the cigs easier...in the long run  she died but the point was she quit....so if detox is made easier then why not?  I know many many crack addicts that when they get clean suffer no physical withdrawals,,,but very bad psychological withdrawals  and these people have been smoking for a long time,,,,they come in beaten down and tired but many have stayed clean even though they have suffered no physical withdrawls to utilize as a tool to stay clean...many people use just to not have to face the withdrawals whether they are addicted due to chronic pain or just because they used for kicks it doesn't matter,,once they are past the withdrawals many people do stay clean......i detoxed from alot of **** 12 years ago with clonidine and librium   not easy even with that but i stayed clean for 5 years   then i relapsed  detoxed myself off of the percs etc..to stay out of jail,,then i stayed clean  yes i have to take meds for severe chronic pain that will only get worse..but i feel that if detox is made easier then people will get past that part and stay clean   the fear of withdrawals is what keeps many using....just my .2..for what it's worth...love to all  cin

[Milo]

Katie -- I'm not familiar with that site, so thanks for passing it on to me -- I'm going to check it out. I had a rough month or so, but have been feeling pretty good physically lately. I have been feeling a bit overwhelmed, so haven't been posting as much as I'd like to lately.
All my forum friends (you all know who you are): This thread seem like an excellent opportunity for me to personally thank the many wonderful, kind, caring, funny, and very *human* folks here who have helped me so much and continue to help in your special ways...naming folks would mean accidentally leaving someone out, so I'll just say "bless your hearts" to all of you -- Love, L'il Milo

[cindi]

hey there my dear heart.....i think my son lost your phone number  and gues what I got a cell phone   i can call for free 350 free minutes a month and 2000 off peak hours and on the weekends   so look out    We didn't talk too long last ime but it was on your calls  this time it will be on me.....and i hope all is well with you   my love to you  and the mr. and mrs.  Milo.....love ya  cin

[Wizard]

Kip, I wanted to let you know that you bring tears of LAUGHTER to me unceasingly. I think you gave the above "un-named" to much credit though. You see, me being a "Biker" and all, I happen to LIKE "SLIGHTLY DAMP BEER FARTS" an ANY morning! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

People, don't you see? Danny Boys pipes are calling from glen to glen. Why are we even answering? Thomas my brother, knows how we ALL feel. ANYBODY that reads or posts seeking to get clean or stay clean is NOT and I repeat NOT doing anything half hearted. To take shots at anyone who has NEVER said an unkind word about anyone here is what is in my book "no hearted". As far as the only way to get and stay clean is working an institutional program......The Wiz says...."WET BEER FARTS" SOME people may need a program. SOME PEOPLE need to just be LOVED. I AM CLEAN after decades of use. This FORUM  along with the LOVE of my family and above all else the LOVE of my GOD is my program.
I have no intention to ever go back to using the "Dragon". Why?
Because like Thomas and the rest of us addicts I LOVE the warm fuzzy high BUT, I now have LOVE and most importantly...TRUTH....... I know the TRUTH, I Speak the TRUTH and the truth is I LOVE myself and my family to much to "WET BEER FART" it all away again. THAT DANNY BOY IS A ******* PROGRAM I can follow.

I apologize for letting just a teensy bit of steam out there as those of you who know me know that I despise negative energy. It's a big waste of Precious Resources. So, with that said, I want to say to every one here "May all your farts be filled with Rainbows and Magick Dust"!

I Love you all! Also, Hi Jules, thanks for the howdy down below :-)

Power & Magick 2 U all,
Wiz

[Milo]

Hey Cindi -- I've been meaning to write but have been so ridiculously busy -- & this week is worse with a ton of work & going out of town for a few days -- but when I get back we'll catch up, promise! Feel good and be well in the meantime!
Wiz -- Bless your heart, you crack me up. With my tummy troubles, I'll take your rainbows & dust as an intended digestive cure! :) -- Best to all, Li'l Milo

[cindi]

You guys are too much....   lucky for me I have such a bad head cold..that i couldn't smell a wet beer fart if I, myself let one rip right now,,,,Wiz,  you could not have said it any better..I remember you getting clean  and my friend how you were an inspiration to everyone....why are we answering all this horse hit?  I haven't a clue,, but I can tell you one reson I even did respond was to defend a friend as I have been know to do in the past...ya know what,,,,IF I HAD BALLS THIS GUY WOULD MAKE THEM ITCH OR EVEN BUST EM...NUFF SAID   have a great week and i'll catch ya later tater     and that rainbow  I finally found one to send back to you....love ya my cheese wiz surfer biker dude...

[jennyfla]

One thing that puzzles me, why is it that you became so defensive by the time you got to your third post, before anyone was even able to respond to your first post???  You seem to have some real 'anger issues', and I would recommend you take a good look at yourself, and try to understand what the REAL reasons for your posts were in the first place.
As far as putting this forum last, well I think that is a choice that each person has as an individual to decide at exactly where to place this forum in their 'program'!
We really don't need anyone giving us advice such as your's!  It's called 'thanks, but no thanks!!!!'
I really hope that you are actually helping the people that are under your care... it's a very vulnerable spot to be in, and needs to be handled in such a way as not to make their lives worse!  Let's just hope it's so!
Good luck and I wish you much success!
Jenny

[jennyfla]

One thing that puzzles me, why is it that you became so defensive by the time you got to your third post, before anyone was even able to respond to your first post???  You seem to have some real 'anger issues', and I would recommend you take a good look at yourself, and try to understand what the REAL reasons for your posts were in the first place.
As far as putting this forum last, well I think that is a choice that each person has as an individual to decide at exactly where to place this forum in their 'program'!
We really don't need anyone giving us advice such as your's!  It's called 'thanks, but no thanks!!!!'
I really hope that you are actually helping the people that are under your care... it's a very vulnerable spot to be in, and needs to be handled in such a way as not to make their lives worse!  Let's just hope it's so!
Good luck and I wish you much success!
Jenny

[jennyfla]

Success for the sake of those poor people under you care is how i meant it!
For you personally, there's not possibility for 'success' in your future because, with an attitude such as yours, it would take a god-sent miracle to make that happen!
Why don't you go somewhere else where your kind lives and breeds, this is no place for you, this forum is only filled with love and heart-filled kindness!  I think that is what bothers you most of all, that you just don't 'fit in'here, and your heart that is already filled with so much ugliness, you just can't stand the thought of people actually helping eachother here!  Go crawl back in the hole from where you came, and LEAVE US ALONE!!!!!
Good Bye!!!!!!
Jenny

[kstuebin]

The way folks handle obnoxious posters on other boards I've been on is to post a blank message.  I will demonstrate and see if it works.  Then there's a whole series of blank messages that mean "you're an a**hole."  Don't let him push your buttons.

[kstuebin]

***********

[kstuebin]

It won't allow blank comments so I typed in some asterisks.  Same idea.  Just a thought from what I've seen elsewhere.  This usually makes the person go away cause they actually like negative feedback.  Being ignored is no fun for them.

[jule1]

I agree with you I am sure Dan gets his kicks out of getting us all riled up.  That is why I apologized for eve responding to him.  I wanted to respond to your earlier post however.  You said they should make the hydrocodne with asprin or ibuprofen and they do they make vicoprofen which has 200mg of advil and 7.5 of hydro.  They also make percodan which is with asprin and darvon with asprin.  It isin't good on your system to take too much asprin or advil so adicts are in trouble with these also.  With vicodin you can take out the tylenol but I don not think you can do that with asprin or ibuprofen they are too water soluble.  Anyway I read your posts all the time and hope you are doing ok.  How was last night?  I am always here for you.  Email me at coleybear229@aol if yoiu need me.  Julie

[GJ]

Dan,

I suppose giving you the silent treatment might be the best thing, but in case you ARE for real, I'm just DYING TO KNOW: why do you pose questions to Doc Steve that you already have the answers to anyway? You ask him "how does one get clean and stay clean?", then you turn around and proceed to TELL everyone that IT IS MY WAY OR NO WAY! You also go on to say that one will not get clean by looking at a computer screen, well then, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ON THIS FORUM? Why don't you just stick to your fail-proof plan and leave us alone? Yes, you won't get clean by looking at a computer screen, you also won't get clean by arrogantly TALKING about how to get clean, and you certainly won't get clean by reading a bunch of rhetoric from a self-proclaimed messiah of medicine who gives you every reason to feel like you are a FAILURE if you don't do what he says!
You get clean by taking the necessary action to GET clean, and what action you DO take is YOUR own choice! And PART of that action might entail the use of a computer screen, or something OTHER than a doctor. I might also not even INCLUDE a doctor! Is this like SACRILEGE to you? Seems to be the case...if it is, well then I guess we're all a bunch of misled ignoramous's. We bow to you, O Mighty One.

Thomas knows the ins & outs of drug addiction better than almost anybody I've ever known, but he never puts himself on a pedestal. He is not afraid to call a spade a spade, he knows he uses the pills, but he takes it with a grain of salt, giving advice as though it were candy, showing so much friggin compassion that the Dalai Lama might blush! He has undoubtedly helped dozens of people, including myself! I only wish that more people knew about him here. Your intention seems to only inflate your own ego by trying to step on his by making post after post of self-righteous rumblings from the depths of your anus...For your sake, GIVE IT UP!

I successfully detoxed myself from oxycodone, and (*brace yourself*) without the aid of a program or doctor (*gasp*) --I also didn't use Thomas' method (though I wish I had), so is it your "factual opinion" that I am forever doomed simply because I didn't do it using the Patented Doctor Dan Method? Well you know what? I'm gonna stay so damned sober now just to prove your theory as biased and narrowminded! So I say "thank you" on that one, you can sleep tonight knowing that you've motivated at least ONE person here, right? Even though I am a heretic for not doing it by word of the Bible of Doctor Dan.

There is a guy over in Afghanistan right now who thinks he knows "The Way". Seems there's a correlation happening here.

Oh, and "be spiritual"..........

G

[jennyfla]

Old 'Danny Boy' must be puking his sorry ass brains out these past few days!
I'm sure the amount of LOVE that is going around on our wonder forum lately is just making him sicker than HELL!!!!
HA!!!!!!!
I'm prouder than ever!!!  I love you guys!!!
Jenny

[Frank Lee]

Man, that was righteous. Lovely. Damn, I have to admit I just loved reading every word. I tell you what, folks, there is a community here that is sophisticated, funny, real and just a hoot to be a part of. And you know what, I went back and read the whole thread tonight and it was aptly named. In response to Senor Dan's attack, we really did maintain sobriety. Go figure Danny boy, but mainly...

just go.

Frankie Lee

[Thomas]

Looking on as "that thread" grew, I must tell you I was glad not to be Doc Dan on the receiving end of what seemed like the forum's collective wrath. It was awe-inspiring. It was like watching the Wagner helicopter attack in Apocalypse Now.

I don't have to tell you how good it felt to know people cared enough about me to focus so much energy and unqualified love. But I know that, had another forum member been attacked, the "foreign invader" would have been eradicated by the same online immune system we seem to have created here.

I really feel like Doc Dan hates himself for being an addict (as far as I know, he's still on methadone therapy -- nothing wrong with that, by the way, more power to him) but he projects his anger onto some of us, notably yours truly. I think it's because I refuse to be ashamed of what I am that he finds my posts conspicuous. I also believe that he doesn't think addicts should be loved and cared for while they go through withdrawal. There seems to be a school of thought that says withdrawal should be horrible and above all demeaning every time you go through it. I can't imagine a person coming up with that idea who had ever experienced withdrawal from a powerful narcotic. Anyway, there. I've given Doc Dan an opportunity to analyze and interpret my words and retort. To me, however, Doc Dan is a fellow addict who suffers still, as I suffer still, and I would help him in any way I could were he to ask me.

Anyway, glad to hear that you, Frank Lee, are apparently feeling well enough to do some feisty posting. Your posts are always interesting, economical and have a point. Our great forum benefits from having a mixture of stream-of-consciousness posters (that sometimes pleasantly remind me of Joyce's Molly Bloom) to the considered posters such as you. The mix is stimulating, don't you think? I do thank you for your support, my friend, and hope that we can both someday be in the mental space that makes life work, except that I fear that the normal head space for me is equivalent to a gravitational lense shot of warped space-time from the Hubble.

Thomas

P.S. When I want to catch a glimpse of God, I go to:

www.stsci.edu

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Yeah, the helicopter attack. Though the movie has a few serious Hollywood flaws, Apocalypse Now is one of my all time fovorites. Robert Duvall captured the moment, didn't he?

As far as sobriety goes, I can only speak of my own.  I've never been perfect at it but have reached a point of equalibrium where I am most comfortable. It's a personal thing, mostly. A lot of stuff I put out here on this forum, I would probably never discuss with anyone but my wife or sponsor. This is a great tool we have here if for no other reason than to "see" ourselves for what we are.

God love you, Thomas!

J.B.

[Frank Lee]

I would gladly play Dedalus to your Bloom.

Feisty yes and pissed off. Doing well? In full bloom abuse and resigned to a maintaince level until I can finish some situational projects at which time I will reach for the b6, htp and your infamous recipe as well as the wonderful words of wisdom you, jb, wiz, shotsy, WW and the whole cabal provide.

Regarding the response to Danny Boy, the support you got is equal to the support you give - with apologies to Lennon and McCartney.

Take care Thomas,

FLEE

[IrishRose]

So far I have attempted to refrain from honoring Danny Boy with any response, but man this guy really gets my Irish up! I guess he pushes my buttons so much because he reminds me of a cretin substance abuse counselor I had in treatment. Hell for all I know maybe it's the same guy, same sort of tactics anyway. The first time I attempted to clean up I was in high school. Had never really been away from home much and was manipulated into a 30 day treatment program. Well I got homesick and cried for a few days and this one a**hole got sick of my bawling and made me wear my pajamas for three days and carry around the Big Book of AA. Also everyone was instructed to address me as"King Baby". I don't know if I was supposed to get recovery by osmosis by carrying around the book or if humilation and shame were supposed to be motivators but at any rate I walked off the unit and went back out at it for a few more years. I hope they don't still do that kind of **** in treatment. I watched that movie with Sandra Bullock 28 days, the part wear they made her wear a sign around her neck to ask for help really got me. I have been clean for awhile now, how long is irrelevant. Danny Boy if you got up earlier than me today well I guess you've been clean longer. But this time around, shame and humilation were not a part of it. Fear was for awhile, I was afraid of losing my son. A little fear is a good thing but an entire recovery based on fear was not healing.  I don't know what place 12 step programs occupy in my life at this point, sometimes I still go occasionally but for the most part I have tried to do what they suggested which is to get back into the mainstream of life while stayng clean.  And yes sitting behind a computer believe it or not is a part of that. I think I probably do owe a lot to those programs, hell maybe even my life. I met my husband there and I learned alot. I think they are a valuable tool but they are not my life. I've heard others on this board express concern with the cult like thinking at some meetings and I can relate to that. For anyone new or trying to clean up reading this, don't be afraid to go and check it out, learn and judge for yourself. Most of the ones I have been to have a little saying, " take what you like and leave the rest". I find that is true of this Forum also, Danny Boy, if you don't like it leave it but don't try to correct our thinking. I have been lurking around this board for about a year now. For an Irish woman with a fiery temper I am actually quite shy and always have a lot of anxiety about posting. I don't know where else I could go and express the feelings I just did about 12 step programs. If I talked to one of my friends in those programs I would no doubt be told that I am in denial, in danger of relapsing, etc. Maybe I am, hell I don't know. All I do know is that I have found an amazing amount of honesty and compassion here. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my current feelings about NA/AA, it's just what I'm going throught right now.

[skipper]

danny-boy:
what IrishRose says!

[Shea]

regarding...Your second post of this thread..... I have a question....at the bottom you typed...TREAT OTHERS LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED...just curious...How Is That Advice Working Out For You Dan?

Shea

[Frank Lee]

Irish Rose, you are the kind of person who keeps me coming back to this board. When I give up and realize I am just a lousy junkie and am feeling sorry for myself, I log on and read a story of an inspiring survivor. God, I get so angry thinking they did that to you. I went to boarding school as a young man and most of my abuse was physical. Here you are, an articulate, compassionate and damn insightful person. I know what I like in your post - it is the fierce independence of a free spirit who was abused but emerged from the fray even stronger and more compassionate. Hey, I can relate. I for one hope you post more with your insight, verve and sobriety. You give me hope, like so many here. Why, I ask myself, could that little angry man have anything against such profound sharing. Thanks Irish Rose. You appear to be in full bloom.

Frank

[Thomas]

IrishRose: What an eloquent post! I was fascinated by your thoughts and doubts about, and resignation to, the sometimes-dreary inevitability of the AA program. They irritate the **** out of me because they have a phrase for every goddamn state of mind you can be in as an addict. They have the advantage of time and numbers focused on defining addiction, especially alcoholism. I understand why they preach absolute abstinence when I see what happens when a guy or girl falls off the wagon. I know someone who had been sober for two years and, during a flight to Hawaii, accepted some of those mini bottles of "play booze." A few hours later, he was charged with air piracy based on something he did while on the resulting bender. The Feds took him off the plane looking like Terry Nichols in leg shackles. ****. Welcome to the islands. Aloha. Being in jail must be especially frustrating in Hawaii -- just knowing that heaven is just over the wall, man! But I digress. I'm really struck by how close our AA experience and viewpoint is. Keep on posting. I love reading your posts. 'Sending out peace to you.

JB: It's always so good to read your posts. They calm me somehow. I read your stuff and get centered ... You have a way about you that consistently comes through in your posts. I look up to you, ya know. How is Marty? I know she had her own health crises. A big, scary one, I know. It's cool that you like Apocalypse Now so much. I know you were there. So an endorsement from you means a lot more than the fascination of someone like me, who was born in the golden year of 1954, too young to get drafted to Viet Nam, now too old and broken down to serve in any other war. Did you ever think we'd be watching television about anthrax 24/7? Though he made "2001," the movie that opened my mind and changed me forever, Stanley Kubrick regarded the future as unknowable. I now know what he meant. I'm afraid for us all in the long term, though we must never let terrorists cause us to relinquish our freedoms. The only good thing about the World Trade Center attack is that it's so horrible that just about everyone in the world is outraged and angry. I've never wanted Bush for president, but maybe he's found his niche being a war president. I applaud his insistence that states that harbor terrorists should be treated like terrorists. Boy, how did we get onto this subject? I admit I smoked some righteous Humboldt when I got home tonight. MMMMM, MMMMM. What can I say? The world is to be found in the Now and now is the time to revel in your outrageous fortune to be human and awake in this incredible universe. The Hubble has shown us that we're part of something arrogantly miraculous. What is the meaning of an explosion of galaxies that goes on for billions of years? Isn't it grand to be aware of it? Anyway, I don't know where I'm going here, I'm just happy to see your posts, my friend. It's good to know you're still out there, menacing K-Marts with your Caddy. May we live forever, my cool JB!

Thomas  

[jennyfla]

I enjoyed reading your post!  I always enjoy reading pure honesty and feelings straight from the heart.
The beauty of this board, I feel, is that we have the openness to be able to say whatever we want, as long as we are not hurting anyone.  Your thoughts about AA/NA are what you feel, and you have a right to your feelings, and no one should ever take offense to someone's expressions of their feelings.
I wish you well, it is a very tough world out there.  We all need eachother here, and I feel for the most part, no one is here to judge oneanother, that's why i love this forum.
We just need to choose to ignore some of the opinions that are meant to be hurtful to others, and where they get off judging others is beyond me.  They need to take a good look at themselves before judging others first.
I glad to see you posting, please come back more often, you sound like a wonderful person.  I know your hubby is, so you must be too.
Lv Jenny

[IrishRose]

Thanks for your encouragement and support, everyone. I reread my own post and I hope to god I didn't make myself sound like a victim. God knows for a number of years I did incorporate victim thinking into my identity. " As a man thinketh, so is he...." became quite true in my life, everything that happened to me was always someone else's fault it seemed. At any rate, in retrospect time and distance provided me with the ability to find the above described situation actually quite hilarious. The ******* counselor fell from grace and he is now the manager of a bowling alley in a small town in Nebraska I am told. Sometimes what goes around does indeed come around. Danielincc a.k.a.Doc/Dan, a marvelous career as a telemarketer awaits you. Any telemarketers out there reading this, no offense intended, just don't call me. Love to all, IR.

[jennyfla]

Hi!
The blaming everyone for everything that happens trait is one that my husband has bigtime!
He fell under the 'king baby' personality type while in rehab, but he really is 'king baby' bigtime!!!!
I tell him to never blame anyone else for things that happen to you.  You are the master of your own destiny, and whatever it is that you want out of life, only you can make it happen or not!
Good luck to you, you sound like you've come a long way!
Lv Jenny

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thank you, Thomas, I really needed to hear what you posted to me today.  I'm a bit melacholy due to some health issues that have kind of knocked me out of the saddle.

No, I never thought we would be in a mess like this.  This last six weeks has been a nightmare for most of us.  This type of stuff is only supposed to happen in movies, Right?  Well, it's not a fantasy anymore.  If I could, I would put the uniform on today and serve my country again!

Keep looking up at those stars at night...there's one for every one of us up there.  I've never been able to figure it all out but just thinking about it is awesome.  Or is it just a dream about a dream?

God bless you,  

J.B.

[Wizard]

JB, you've been on my mind all night. I know we haven't written much to each other since my return back here but I remember much from when I first posted and have followed your posts from time to time. I can relate to your feelings of wanting to put on the uniform again as I also want to to do the same. But like yourself, age and health prevents it. Then it came to me as I sat here searching for the right words to say to you in this sad time. You are serving your country again right now. You are doing it right here. You see we are Americans in need of many things. By your example of Honor, Strength, Will and Faith that you have shown us just by being here when you could have just as easily given up with the news that you have received is sparking Hope and Strength in each of us. What better way to give back to our country could there be then Leadership in a time of emergency. You see each and every one of us can take your example and not only learn from it but pass it on to others who are up and coming and may find themselves in need of that same strength and faith. JB, you and I are both vets, but as you can see, service doesn't have to end with a discharge. No, it continues in many different ways. If there was a way that I could take some of your discomfort and carry it for you I would my brother. For I know you have and would do the same for me. I shall keep you in my thoughts and mostly in my prayers during these times. May God Bless you and Keep you and grant you and your family Peace.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light 2 U 2,
Wiz

[cindi]

First  my dear Irish Rose,,how classy you are....and I don't think you would even mind If i go back to that song my "wild" Irish rose"""  You can get a little fiesty and this I know but that makes me love you all the more  you are so real,,and our views are so close..your post was very well written..
TO THE REST OF MY FORUM FAMILY.   Since I have been sick and started really reading each and every post i could read today alone I have never been more is awe of people than I am of this group...your sense of humanity, of caring for those that you in a sense don't even know,,,is so beautiful...how everyone pulls together for those of us that are under the weather, or being bashed by ignorance,,and those being bashed are still willing to extend their hand to the basher...one time a few months back I was slammed for saying i love you to people on this forum....but I have never once regretted saying those three words   those three words can never be said too much....I LOVE YOU can mean so much to someone in need of so many things....you guys are all the greatest..and all the while I have known how special you all are,,,when I sit at home alone in the dark and cry for someone that I have never met face to face can only mean one thing...I Do truly love you  each and every one of you...just for being here and for making this forum what it is,,what is was when i first came here.what Americana is really all about..and they can't take that away from us,,no one can....love to al of you   cindi

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I knew you'ld be there for me!  In the military, we had the policy of never leaving a fallen buddy behind and never ever give up the fight.  That is the very meaning of Honor.  Bravery, on the other hand is something we did't train for.  It just happens and it is over.  All I cared about was whether I got the mission accomplished.  You are correct.  We are still on a mission that we may never see the end of,  but we are still bangin' away at it!

Peace Brother!

J.B.

[Wizard]

This one is close to home my brother. In two ways. You know how fond I am of Oz and being over the Rainbow......well if you remember the Lion went to the Wizard to ask for courage....just to find that he had it all the time in his heart. Your heart is full of it too. It's been there always and will be there forever.
Secondly, I know a little bit about liver transplants as my mother had one 15 years ago.I want you to know that she was on a list for a while but one did come available. She was one of the first 5 to receive one at Universty of San Francisco Med Center.
J.B., it was rough at first but I can assure you she is alive and very well today....15 years later.....not only alive and well but I can't even keep up with her. She's all over the place from coast to coast...oh yea, she's been so busy she wore out both hips and had them replaced too! She has been flying to D.C. and has spoken in front of congress in the last couple of years.What I'm saying man is she's 75 years young and full of **** and vinager. I can get you information if you need it. There is so much hope if you KEEP THE WILL to see it through. If you don't have my e-mail and want it let me know here or through Cin. My mom's a piece of work for sure! Keep on Keeping On Bro! Peace to you and yours and know you are in my prayers.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Wiz

[Witchywoman]

Hi JB..I'm seeing that some of posts of support to you have mysteriously disappeared, so I'm putting another one on here to be sure you see it.

I'm here for you, any time and will send you endless healing energy and hope and light. We've not talked much, but I care deeply about you and am so grateful for all that you have given me. I want to return the support, if at all possible.

You are so loved by everyone here, the quality of your heart ensures that.

My love to you and to your wife, and prayers for healing.

WW

[Thomas]

don't the Hindus believe that Vishnu is sleeping on a river bank, and when he dreams, he dreams the universe into being?

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

That may be true about Vishnu, I don't know.  The "dream about a dream" thing is something that I read in one of Spook's(remember him?) rambling posts here.  I wonder what ever happened to him, anyway. He was for a while, a compelling force here at any rate.

I've been trying to get things in order here before going into the hospital. According to my tests, I'm in liver failure. This doesn't necessarily mean immediate death as one would suspect.  As you may know, I've been in liver failure for quite some time...Only now it's been turned up a notch. My biggest dread is having another liver biopsy done,  my last two were killers!

Incidentally, I lived about ten miles from Martin Marrieta where the hubble telescope was built.  That's south of Denver, Colorado.  United Van Lines(the moving and storage company)transported a lot of the sensitive parts that went into the thing.  The trailers had sensors that alerted the driver if he exceded 1.2 G's.  Railroad crossings were a big no-no. Then they loaded this big sensitve $2 billion device onto a rocket and fired it into orbit at God knows how many G's!  How do I know all this?  Well, I was one of the technicians that worked on the
tractors and trailers back in the early 80's.

J.B.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Deleting posts again, are they?  About six months ago, I advised a new poster not to get involved with "street methadone" and to use it only under a physician's care.  When I returned to the forum, the whole thing had disappeared(in a matter of seconds)! Later that afternoon which was on a Sunday, Dr. Steve had visited several threads, dispensing his laconic/duh advice.  He had also strafed several other threads while he was at it.

OOP's, your not supposed to bite the hand that feeds you!

Thanks for the support, WW. People around here tell me I look too good...plus I feel pretty good today...to be all that sick. So,I think I'll just go with that.  Anybody who's got Hep C knows what I'm saying.

Have a great weekend!

J.B.

[Thomas]

how cool to have played a part in the Hubble.

All my luck and hope goes with you, JB. Stay in touch any way you can. I'll look for your posts.

Your Friend,

Thomas

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Well, I'm still sitting here at home obviously.  I'm sipping on a cup of:
  poppy pod tea and deciding that today is going to be marvelous! Who could ask for more?  I'll always keep you posted, my friend.

J.B.

[dominique]

I was just reading your comment about hepatitis c.  I was told 3 years ago I have it.  I never got the courage to have myself traeted for it for financial and mental reasons (I don't think I could handle it at this time) so I don't know how bad it is.  I don't have health insurance and also I know someone who has it and has been going through grueling debilitating treatments. So bad many times she wants to just give up and die.  Also, I have arthritis in my back, really bad.  Without medication I can't last 2 hours in a day. My life is already a non-life and I have a 12 year old daughter who practically has no life because of my pain.  My question is:  are there any symptoms if your liver is going really bad?

[skipper]

Dominque:
the easyiest sympton is Jaundice (yellowing in the whites of the
eyes and skin).
don't jump any guns here.i've had several friends that were di-
anosed with hep-c and have gone more than 20 years without any-
thing happening.
your real problem is getting health and life insurence. If you or
your spouse can get health insurence through a group plan there
is no way the insurence company can keep you out.
i have a close friend who was turned down for life insurence be-
cause antigens and other by products of the disease turned up in
blood tests. his wife put him on a regement of herbal stuff that
eithers masks the disease or actually put him into a state of re-
mission. at any rate he did get life insurence then.
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[skipper]

Dominque:
the easyiest sympton is Jaundice (yellowing in the whites of the
eyes and skin).
don't jump any guns here.i've had several friends that were di-
anosed with hep-c and have gone more than 20 years without any-
thing happening.
your real problem is getting health and life insurence. If you or
your spouse can get health insurence through a group plan there
is no way the insurence company can keep you out.
i have a close friend who was turned down for life insurence be-
cause antigens and other by products of the disease turned up in
blood tests. his wife put him on a regement of herbal stuff that
eithers masks the disease or actually put him into a state of re-
mission. at any rate he did get life insurence then.
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

First of all, a liver biopsy will have to be done in order to start any treatment.  I went through treament from Aug. 1998 until Mar. 1999. I took an antiviral daily plus injections every three days of Interferon.  Back then, the meds were about $1500 per month. Then there are all the lab tests and doctor's fees which were about $300 a month. That's what I would have paid out without medical insurance.  My doctor stopped the meds prematurely because I was not responding. It was a relief to me in a way because the treatment can be worse than the disease.  I suffered from anemia, joint pain, chronic fatigue and severe depression during treatment.  I had to force myself to go to work each day and that in itself can take a toll on your body.

Like many people with Hep C, I had some very vague symptoms that had my family doctor puzzled.  He used to shrug it off as "old age creeping up", etc.  I had an elevated temperatue for months, bowel problems, dark urine, fatigue and a general feeling of being ill. Kind of like having a flu bug that never goes away. I have never jaundiced until very recently.  The whites of my eyes have yellowed lately.  The kicker is, most people don't think you are ill...you look too good! No wonder so many people with Hep C get labled hypochondriac/drug seekers.

I hope this post helps you some.  Let me know if I can help you further.  J.B.