Methadone Detox: What works, what doesn't

[Savas]

I've talked to a lot of people over the months, and I'm putting this thread up to tell what I've heard what works well, what works not so well, and what's an out right fallacy.

All this information is first hand, from people who went through it personally. Keep in mind that everyone is different, and as much as I've searched for accuracy, not everyone tells the whole truth as they know it. Very few people who have gone through this successfully keep in touch with those who need the information, or even remember it.

One thing that seems true right now is with the propaganda of methadone maintenance is keeping any really good treatments from being given funding or FDA approval.

I hope this thread helps some. But I doubt you'll find any "pain free" miracle cures here. But this is what people who have successfully done to beat their opiate addictions, through blood sweat and tears. So everyday or so I'll put up a post with some of this information, and hopefully save someone time and effort, as well as suffering.

The biggest weapon you have in this fight is information, question everything you're told. Eventually you'll have to make a decision on your path, hopefully it will work out. Since I'll be doing this myself, eventually, I'll be able to use myself as a guinea pig (can't wait!!!)

More to come...

[Savas]

I'm going to start with the obvious of the "DON'T WORKS".

Methadone tapering:
Unfortunately, this is the most common option for people without money. While it is true that coming down from 100's of milligrams to as low a dose is a good idea before stopping, don't let the party line fool you. Tapering is NOT a detox. As long as you have ANY agonist type opiate (methadone, heroin) in your body, you're body is still relying on drugs to be stable.

I've gotten various reports from people who came off 80 or 5, and the only real difference is in the initial two weeks of withdrawal. Coming off a higher dose does cause a greater intensity of symptoms and suffering. It varies, but the longer you've been on, the worse this effect is. But all say the secondary withdrawal symptoms are about the same and last from six months to a year (where did I find people "crazy enough" to come off 80 milligrams or an equally high amount?
*surprise* Jail!!! Many MMTP patients have been arrested, thrown in jail, and kicked cold turkey. Those that survived lived to tell the tale!!! The experience is bad enough, however, that most "don't want to talk about it." beyond confirming the above (wonder why???)

If you're doing a taper, it's best NOT to start taking alternate supplemental medications until you totally come off. And if you're starting to really suffer, your best bet is to either go back up until you can try again, or just say "to hell with it", come off, and try to medicate as best you can.

But make no mistake, until you come off, taper is not detox. Until your body is free of opiates, it isn't starting the healing process. Some claim that as you come down in dose the receptors in the brain "adjust" accordingly. This is possibly true (they can't be *sure*), but it doesn't change the fact that you aren't in the process of recovering physically from the addiction until you're TOTALLY OFF.

Next time : Clonidine, the only choice???

[wait2long]

great so far....keep it coming    

[Savas]

I'm skipping clonidine and going straight to this: I've been researching pre-1980's drug addiction treatment. AND I did finally come up with an old treatment that actually really does work. It's heavy duty, and I doubt you'd get a doctor to prescribe it, but I've talked to three old timers who experienced it (said it worked great, no withdrawal, no real PAWS to speak of), and one PhD Chemistry and pharmaceuticals who said that it sounds like it would absolutely work, that it was in some ways brilliant, but having never seen it work, he couldn't swear to it.

These are the components of the treatment (keep in mind I haven't gotten the specifics on dosage yet).
1: .Chloral Hydrate
2: Darvon
3: Librium
4: Dalmane
5: Anti-emetic (compazine, or any anti-nausea, maalox for non-prescription)

The key to this treatment is the chloral hydrate and the darvon. The two mix with each other and change how each other works, the end result being it keeps you comfortable, deals with the chills and shakes, etc... this is the part the PhD said is genius.
Librium is for nerves/depression, jitters...
Dalmane is for sleep.
The anti-emetic is anything that helps your stomach, doesn't have to be to be a prescription like compazine (sp?), over the counter is fine if it works for you.

This is a two to three week treatment. I'm still trying to find out the specifics on the dosage. BUT, good luck trying to get any doctor to prescribe these drugs to you for detox (also, it was for heroin detox originally, but, hey, they say there's no real difference, right???? An opiate is an opiate. So, if you can find a doctor who will prescribe me, let me know, and I'll be on the next flight to where you are. This is how they treated opiate addiction in the seventies, before it became socially acceptable to blame addicts for their addiction, seek to punish them by making suffering an "important part of recovery", and deciding to keep us all on maintenance. If anyone actually follows up on this, please let me know. Just keep in mind the treatment is only supposed to run for two to three weeks tops. These are heavy drugs, and not to be taken lightly.
Which is probably why it works.

[Savas]

Forgot to mention: Chlorol Hydrate is a soporific. Darvon and dalmane are barbiturates, I believe. They'd be hard to get because the benzo group replace them, as they're considered safer, with less chance of overdose. The Darvon HAS to be darvon, to make the proper mix with the chloral hydrate, but the dalmane (which may be a benzo, actually, from the "pan" group) can possibly be traded out. But you need something, the Darvon changes with the mix and doesn''t help with sleep.

Librium... god, I have to look that up. We all know about Librium, it's used (or was) for alcohol withdrawal, but apparently with this mix it has a beneficial effect.

Next time, clonidine, if I don't get distracted again!!!

[wait2long]

WOW, very interesting, i always wondered what they did in the "olden days" for withdrawals...i just assumed they were made to suffer....and you know of someone who took this route and it worked?  why are they keeping this from us???  great info!!!!

[SKay]

I can not even begin to thank you enough for all the info I have read from you. I am an addict and having withdrawal.....(methadone) i can not get anymore until Friday as this pain management doctor is an ***! However, I am now going half nuts with what I need and can't get. You have calmed me. I thank you. Its hard to sit here and type..I will keep reading then walk, cry, get all flippy and then start all over again.I doubt if I ever get well. I am a female 58 years old!
God love you!! I sure do.

[FLaddict]

Darvon is a opiod.. it is like Darvocet.. I was detoxed with Darvon while I was a minor at a drug rehab.
Some rehabs use strictly Darvon tapers if they don't use methodone.. this was before Sub treatment.. You may wanna change that it is not a barbituate

[hellc@mst]

if u take all those meds u'll be unconcious 4 a week.lol.i like the way u think tho.

[wait2long]

i told you there would be quite a bit of interest on this one...did you read my post "addiction and mental illness" if you have anything to add please do...and i thank you

[wait2long]

no more posts from haass, wonder why? i wonder if he figured out what to do...

[Savas]

Argh, you're right, Darvon is an opiate, I read my notes wrong. Which is why the chloral hydrate mix is so interesting, mixing with the opiate and apparently having some positive effect on the detox..
Oh ,by the way, they stopped doing this because all the addicts started selling their meds (Darvon, etc) on the street (curse those greedy addicts, why couldn't they be *responsible* like we are?!?! ).
      It's one of the main reasons they moved off of working treatments onto treatments that were oriented towards keeping addicts from selling meds and clinics making a profit off of addicts.

SKay, that's harsh. a quick fix that may help you is to take a triple dose of a Benydral type antihistamine (I used the generic Duane Reade).
I got to warn you, this will get your heart racing some, But if you're throwing up A LOT, as some do, it will help. It will also help some with the creepy crawlies. It works for some. Just don't take TOO many, it'll stop your heart!

Well, Haas will be back if he needs to. And I'm glad this stuff will help those out there.
Shoot, take this up tomorrow, it's late and I've gotta meet with the tax lawyers tomorrow to see if I can keep the Infernal Revenue Service from taking my gonads in payment. I'll pick this up Wednesday...

[SKay]

I am so tired of not sleeping! The creepy crawlies have me nuts!! I am counting the days until Friday! I was in a motorcycle accident in 1979, that's how this started, and it appears it will never end. I went out to get the benadral, it was all I coulld do to get up. It did help. Thank you.

[Savas]

No prob, wish I could do more. What you're going through is one of the main reasons I decided enough is enough and am coming off. I've used pot in your situation to, but nothing will make you feel okay until you get dosed again or finish the 2 weeks of hard core detox. I'm guessing your really stuck, since most people couldn't handle what you're going through and would have to do *something*

Here's a link to scare the hell out of you, by the way. It shows the numbers of people being prescribed methadone and how it's skyrocketed, as well as "methadone related poisoning deaths" and how they've gone up 330%.

Let me just give out some of the information I've gotten on the anesthesia fast detox (think this site advertises it!)

This is a process where they knock you out cold and "flush" your system with a narcon like substance over a two-three day period. It's VERY expensive, insurance generally won't cover it.

I've talked to 5 people who've done it. None of them stayed clean after doing it.

All reported that they woke up feeling "fine"... but...
They said (summing up) they had the disturbing memory of having been through a slow, molasses like nightmare. One woman tried to describe it, and in frustration compared it to when she was raped (HER words, NOT mine!!!). the idea being she'd had an awful experience, wasn't awake for it, and *felt* the reminder of the "Violation" on some subconscious level. She said she felt emotionally fragile and brittle afterwards, had frequent crying fits, and all but suffered a nervous breakdown. This went on for some weeks. All 5 reported this happened on some level. One man joked he felt like he'd gone out, gotten drunk, been jumped and worked the f**k over, and woke up with the pain from the beating and a hazy "Oh, wow, THAT happened?!?!" attitude.

But all claimed they were physical basically okay.

I don't know what to make of this. It sounds like on a subconscious level you really suffer, and despite the doctor's reassurance, the body DOES remember. And not remembering the suffering almost makes it emotionally worse. And I would suppose if you can *deal* with the aftershock, it may be worth it. But to pay for an experience that is so traumatic on a subconscious level that you have to medicate to deal with it...well, maybe it works for some. If offered it right now, I can't honestly say if I'd try it or not.

[Savas]

Clonidine is the most affordable and commonly used drug used for treating methadone/opiate withdrawal. This is NOT a very effective treatment, it's only the devil's choice. Clonidine is a blood pressure medication. One of the worst symptoms of drug withdrawal is when your heart is racing continually.
The idea here is you take a blood pressure medication to slow down your heart to a more normal pace. This is a helpful thing. By lowering the heart rate it reduces stress on your body, which becomes exhausted from being in a state of "overdrive". You'll still suffer from all the other symptoms of withdrawal, However, by alleviating this symptom, it makes the others not quite as stressful.
So you're stil going to feel like hell, but the idea is it makes it more dealable. I'[ve spoken with many people who've used clonidine. Almost none of the people who used this treatment were able to make it all the way through without treating additional symptoms agressively. But it is helpful.

The traditional clonidine treatment is: Clonidine (p.o)  .1mg 3x per day. There are patches available as well, but I'm told that they are not as effective. They tend to get wet in a shower and lose their potency.
Dose varies, and I'll warn you that doctors who prescribe this will often err on the side of caution, only dosing once, twice a day. The dose will vary from person to person. It's recommended you purchase a blood pressure cuff when using this treatment, and monitoring your blood pressure as the results of over medication are serious.

Most doctors will not want to issue clonidine for PAWS, for fear of hypertensive rebound. While a legitimate worry, I'd say drug addiction and withdrawal stress are far more dangerous. But hey, they're more concerned with lawsuits for malpractice, sooo...

If used with a regime of treatments I'll provide in the next postings, this is actually a fairly effective treatment regime, especially for the PAWS. But it will be a somewhat painful time to go through, and you will need a will and determination. But the difference between cold turkey and this treatment is significant.

[wait2long]

honestly i dont think i would have made it had it not been for the clonidine...i was in sheer hell and took 1 clonodine, BIG DIFFERENCE!!! but everyone is different...i took 1 pill 3 times a day for 10 days, then tapered down slowly...

[Running Blind]

Thank you so much for all the info on getting off of Methadone.  For the last two weeks I have been going crazy. I was on 26mgs. took half for 3 days then 0 for three and the had to dose to get my takehomes. Then for 3 nights I took two teaspoons it helped calm my brain down. I feel I like I took the easy way out 4yrs 8months ago when I got on methadone. Only because this is way worse then coming off of OXys. Although Methadone has allowed me to build a new life. I just hated the fact that every day I had to take a heavy drug to feel normal. And knowing that I would never get more then six takehomes. In the past four years I have not once touched Oxys I only somked pot. Today was so bad my brain was going crazy. I feel better knowing that I am not alone.

[krati]

suboxone...i am on it ...came from methadone maintenance...the 3 days transferring was hell...but now that i'm stable i feel great - it's easy to come down -  (i've come down from 16 to 8mg in a month) and i have no side effects and very low withdrawals

on methadone ..you still crave more and more - you have lots of side effects and pretty much just a general haze about you

i feel the most normal i've felt in years
and it feels great - i can concentrate on things besides pills

[wait2long]

i am on suboxone also...transition was HELL, 4 days of it, i switched from methadone,i have been having a real hard time with it, BUT i was on 32mgs at first then tapered to 16mgs, still felt horrible i have now tapederd to 12mgs and am finally starting to feel better, thanks to fladdict,  i was ready to give up after 9 weeks, i had had enough, but i truly beleive it was because of the higher dose, i am going to 10mgs or 8mgs on monday, not sure how daring i will be,   as with methadone i always wanted more cuz i could catch a buzz with it, especially if i had a benzo to go with it, felt quite sedated most of the time, so NOW i can finally say it: thank you suboxone for giving me the start to my new life.... the lower dose was the trick for me....

[Savas]

Glad to help. I'm going to do the next section on additional treatments for those who get past the first two weeks (well, some of it helps with the first two weeks too). Most of those who make it use a pretty extreme regime of exercise and health supplements to achieve a *normal state* quickly.

Suboxone... I'm getting a lot of positive feedback from those who are ON it. I don't want to be a downer (so to speak) but I've gotten very little good feedback on the after 0 dose withdrawals. The theory is it's a partial agonist so you don't suffer as much coming off it. But most of the few who have used it to detox and made it (it IS very new) gave conflicting reports on whether the detox after zero dose was that much easier than methadone detox or not. I've been trying to find people who have done both methadone and suboxone detox for comparison, but for obvious reasons, it's been hard.
     I talked to THREE people who did both. One said it was a little easier, the other two there wasn't much difference.
     I'd be interested to hear the long term results, after 4 to 6 months. I'd hope that being a partial agonist would mean you went through less significant PAWS, but...who knows???

As an alternative to regular maintenance, it sounds great. But if you're looking to detox totally off, like within six months, I just don't know if it sounds like its worth it or not.

The BIG problem is you're totally reliant on the doctor's whim, scheduling, time constraints in getting on it. For those who don't know, you have to go 36 hours from your last methadone/opiate dose before taking it. This means you have to go into the doctor's office sick as heck, sit in the waiting room, wait for him to see you. Then he doses you. You wait an hour. He checks you. This repeats until you get steady.
BUT THEN, you may have to come back in the next day or two to repeat the process. This can go on for a week until you stabilize.
And keep in mind, you're feeling...not great the entire time. And, the doctor could have an emergency and cancel, not show up (I've heard MANY horror stories like this). Until you get on. you're at the whim of a doctor who realistically could care less about your feeling sick.

So once you're on, you only have to make the monthly pickups, which is great. But keep in mind, they are making more draconian regulations for it as we speak. Just recently they added an agent to the formula that acts like narcon if you take too much or try to take another opiate (for those who don't know, this puts you in instant withdrawal).
So you'd better hope you don't have an accident, end up in the E.R., and need/are given pain meds!!!

[wait2long]

i got really lucky with my first introduction to suboxone, i took my last dose of methadone on sunday night, went to my "meeting" on tues.,(wasnt sick yet) my sub. doctor gave me the prescription, we talked for an hour with the therapist, i went to the pharmacy, filled it, then waited 3 more days to be sick enough to take my first dose of suboxone, and it was hell for the next 4 days, thanks to clonidine i made it through the worst and the additive they put in suboxone (not in subutex )is for I.V. users, so they cant main line it, it will put then into precipatated withdrawals. it doesnt counteract any other way than if crushed, cooked and shot up, and my sub doc told me if i took a handful of percocets it would be a waste because the suboxone acts as a blocker, and has already binded to my receptors so nothing else (opiods) can get in to make me high...i really enjoy reading your posts , but i think you kind of have the suboxone a little wrong...sorry, not to criticize you, just to inform...keep posting.

[fishmeal]

I call suboxone, "methadone lite."

suboxone.com

[Dave W.]

I personally tried a lot of different ways to kick my 5 year Methadone nightmare. I am a former
Coke and Alcoholic,who did get completely clean at a purification program that was about 30
days long. It involved the "Drug Bomb" everyday,treadmill exercise,and going into a sauna for
approximately 5 hours per day. I had no withdrawls from the drugs at all while going through this
process. The Methadone however,is another completely different story. Did the same regimen in the
privacy of my own home,but it failed completely. Had no releif from the debilitating withdrawl
symptoms. Being in chronic pain all the time,I also needed to take some form of pain meds also.
The oxy I was taking while being in withdrawl from the Methadone did,in fact,completely made the
Methadone withdrawls disappear. Only after about 4 hours from the oxy dose,I would be completely
slammed by the oxy withdrawl symptoms. I did have a hard time determining,which med I was
actually in withdrawl from. The Methadone W/D's are horrible,but I think the W/D's from the Oxy
were worse in their own way. How do you function while being off Methadone and having to take
huge doses of oxy every 4 to 5 hours. Taking Xanax or some type of sedative,did not help me get
any sleep unless I took extreme doses of them. I was much better off,being on the Methadone
and not going through the withdrawls after my months supply of oxy was done in just a few weeks.
The Methadone stopped the oxy withdrawls completely once my script would run out. Replacing
one drug for another is not the way to go in my situation,at least,and I'm almost positive not in any-one's either. The stress my body and heart endured through my half *** 5 week ordeal of stopping
the Methadone,was just another reminder,that I would not be trying any type of detox process,unless
I knew for sure,that I had a greater than average chance of it being successful this time around.
I have learned the hard way,that this drug "Methadone" is not something I can try and defeat myself.
I'm not about to take another chance of dying anytime soon. I hate to say it,but I'm almost content
being on the "done",compared to not being able to function off of it at all. I'm still afraid of the suboxone detox process. I have read that it's not a guarantee for success,so until they bring back
some type of "old school" treatment that's almost a sure thing,I'm going to just keep taking enough
of this "junk" so I can get some sort of sleep and self peace.Peace people.

[wait2long]

i think i would have to agree with you on that...if you dont mind me asking....what dose are you on? and for how long now? thank you    

[Savas]

Dave, check out my first post or two in this thread, if you have any questions after that, happy to help. But I think most of what you're asking is answered there.

wait2long, yeah, suboxone being so new, and being changed how they administer it every couple to six months has left me kinda at a loss to keep up with what applies.
A lot of the suboxone users I talked to had it before they changed it to make it an "opiate blocker", so almost all of them were using additional opiates while on it. Do you know if the "blocker" really works? They made a claim of that with methadone for a decade, of course we now know it wasn't true.
I'm actually contemplating it myself, trying to decide if it's worth doing or should just go straight to doing my six month "withdrawal".
  Let me know which parts you found inaccurate so I can add it to my stuff. It would be helpful. I'm curious about this too; have you asked your doctor what happens in an emergency where you need surgery and pain relief? I'm fairly "active" myself and end up breaking/ straining something every so often, and while I avoid pain meds like death, I DO want the option available if I break yet another limb!!!

Fish, you do know that jumping back between methadone and oxy just kinda screwed you and prolonged the suffering? They are the same opiate, only methadone is structured to be  alot more "intense", so oxy wouldn't hold you for like you said, more than four or so hours. Opiate replacement therapy for methadone is REALLY tricky and almost never works for most people. The idea is oxy, heroin, etc... are structured so they are in your system a shorter time so by transferring your methadone addiction to them, your withdrawal period is shorter. BUT, you have to still wait months to get the methadone out of your system, since it's structure for a "long term stay"... and if you don't give it enough time you end up withdrawing from both!!!

[Dave W.]

I was on a 5 year 60 to 80mg program. It wasn't like a program,it was just my PM dr. giving me
the same darn doses every month with my pain meds also. I didn't wake up and say to myself,
what the heck I was doing taking this Methadone for so long with no pain releif in sight and all
the usual horrible side effects of t. I was surfing the internet one day and saw all the horror stories
and deaths that were a result of Methadone. I was so naieve before doing my search,that I had
always thought that detoxing off of heroin was ten times harder than say the done. Boy was I
mistaken,I was totally wrong and didn't find this out until I was at the end of my first week of
withdrawls fron the done. I just did searches to find out how many days I would be going through
this "pure hell" and was shocked to find that it could take me a month plus at the dose I was on.
I truely thought that I would have no problem kickin this because I did kick a 10 year almost every
day Coke and Alcohol addition. I was in for a rude awakening. Now that I got back on the Methadone, I'm taking about half what I was taking for that 5 year period,and I'm doing O.K.
No serious issues as before,while I was taking twice what I was on. I'm disappointed that I'm
back on it,since I practically tortured myself,almost to death,for that 5 week period,almost for
nothing but to truely find out the hard way how aggressive this drug really is.

[Dave W.]

Your completely right about the fact that when I was off the Methadone and taking the oxy,I was
not going through just the oxy withdrawls real fast I was going through both withdrawls at the same
time. That's why I was wondering which one I was going through withdrawls from,but in fact it was
both. That's why I wanted to end my life so many times. Going through just one of the two is just
horrible,but now I know what was actually happening to me during my 5 weeks of hell. I just figured
that since I was not taking the Methadone at all,that it was out of my system for sure,but I was
totally stalling my recovery by taking the oxy. Thank you very much for that information. I feel much
better,now knowing that. I thought a lady I talked to at a rehab was just lying to me when she said
that both the Methadone and the oxy were the same thing and that my brain couldn't tell them
apart. I just thought see was just telling me that so she could get me to come to her facility and
make me pay like 3 to 5 thousand dollars of which I don't have any money at all. She was totally
not lying to me. Boy,do I feel dumb.

[Savas]

Don't feel bad, there's a huge war going on between the methadone treatment industry and the DEA over treatment. DEA wants to villianize MMTP and MMTP wants to make you think methadone is your only option. And we're caught in the middle. So you'll get lied to, abused, and refused treatment, as well as taken advantage of, while you're an addict. The trick is to try to sift through the garbage and find the truth (how X-files!) and create a treatment plan that works for you.

Hydrogen Peroxide Treatment:

This is a treatment that while slightly dangerous, is highly effective for cleaning out your system after stopping drug use. I Don't think I'd suggest using while still in full withdrawal. It would be more for PAWS.
This is Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide (25%/30% solution). It is NOT NOT NOT the stuff you buy in the drugstore (3% solution).

You take the solution in the form of a bath or mixed with water. The idea is it rises the oxygenation of your blood. This helps to clean out your system of harmful substances, and I believe it helps with fighting off the lactic acid  build-up in the muscles that causes the general weakness of PAWS.

I'm going to provide the link for it, since it has to be done VERY carefully and I don't trust myself to not make a mistake in reporting this (it's a full two pages, as well). This treatment IS uncomfortable, can even be painful, but if you get through it, the results are supposed to be incredible!

http://tuberose.com/Hydrogen_Peroxide.html

[Dave W.]

Great info. Another one to get the toxins out of your system is through the use of a gradiant
form of Niacin and the "Drug Bomb" regimine and the use of a sauna. It does remove the
toxins from yor pours as you sweat,but you have to keep upping the niacin on a certain level.
It could become dangerous if it's not done right,however. I worked for me in a purification rehab
I was in for 30 days for my coke and alcohol addiction. I experienced 0 withdrawls from the
program,but getting the specific doses of the key part of the regimine,the niacin,will prove to
be quite difficult,at least for me anyways.Niacin helps with the mental disturbance part of
the withdrawls. It didn't work for me for my methadone withdrawls,but I didn't do the most
important part,the niacin doses correctly,I'm positive on that.It's very potent as a withdrawl eraser,
but if your going to try it,make sure you find out how to properly increase the niacin,cause the
whole thing will be a waste. The rehabs charge all tht money,since they have the correct method
of combining everything to work properly. Even though I spent $2000 at the time to do the 30 day
program,it was completely worth it to become clean,even though the vitamins themselves only
cost about a few hundred.Good Luck and hope this helps someone.(Sorry for my retarted looking
posts,I don't know why it posts my wording all in lines. It doesn't look like that when I type it)

[Savas]

Yeah, niacin is a good vitamin to use for Alcohol and cocaine rehab. It can help with opiate rehab, but the biggest problem there is the healing of the receptor sites. FlAddict did a great post on this, I'm going to put what I have up, but barring small differences, both are about the same and very good. There doing studies on receptor site healing now, trying a few new drugs, but it's slow going. Between the "anti-addict treatment" people and the "MMTP" is the only way crowd it's hard to do work in this field. DEA is especially hostile to studies in this field. Most of the best work is being done in Scotland, of all places!

[Dave W.]

They can put a man on the moon and spend Billions of dollars on worthless BS,but help our own
people live somewhat normal lives. The sad reality is,that people stereotype anyone being on
Methadone,whether they need it for legitamate pain or for opiate withdrawl,as both junkies.
Politians only start to stick their noses in this type of issue when it hits home. Say Jeb Bush's
daughter is a junkie, and he just had to lay down some laws in this state,to make it even harder
for people in legitamate pain,to be able to get the proper meds and the right amount needed to
give them any real releif. I'm sorry for whining,but it makes me sick to my stomache to see the
government waste all this money on things that don't even help or concern the general public.
None of the bigwigs want to cure anything big in the medical field,bacause they are making way
to much money masking everyones illnesses with expensive worthless placebo meds.It all comes
down to the Ol' Mighty Dollar,which means nothing to anyone that doesn't have their health.Peace.

[wait2long]

are these the posts you are talking about...they are still here.....

[Savas]

No, they were others. I don't even want to mention the detox topic because as I've been looking into this, it turns out that whole threads have been removed referring to this treatment. I put one here once and next time it was gone. Started a new thread... poof! Gone the next day. Was in the process of replying to your comment on it in a fourth (?) new thread, and *poof* got kicked to the home page and when I came back, it was gone.
I turns out this isn't the only board that does this with that particular treatment. I wonder why they're so adamantly against it.
It's why nothing new has gone up here, I wanted to see what's going on before I go through the trouble of putting it in, just to have the whole thread deleted.

[wait2long]

what treatment are you talking about?   go to my profile and get my e-mail address and tell me what your talking about if they wont let you post it.

[FLaddict]

Medhelp generally removes posts about treatment that is not legal everywhere... they also remove alot of posts about Kratom.. since its illegal alot of places and this is an international site.. The treatment you spoke of which we will now call "the treament that we don't name"  I have read some scary stuff about it.. there are only a few places that do it in the US and I don't think its FDA approved.  So just so ya know... thought I would give you a heads up...don't take it personally man..

[Savas]

Thanks for the info. It's not personal, I'm just one of those people who just "has to know". As a child I used to drive adults crazy by asking "why?"constantly. I suppose nothing's really changed.  :)

We do tend to forget that these sites are privately run, and not subject to free speech laws. It's a little startling when they enforce it.
You are right, it does sound scary. The idea of placing myslef in a "brainwashable state" (what it sounds like) and giving someone full access to myself like that is... disconcerting.

[Calzy]

Your post is good timing because i have decided to stop my methadone to see why i feel so bad. This is my 2nd day without and no w/d yet but the same old tired as can be and noding off. I am at 115mg now and was up to 200mg and on MMT for 6 mos. for 13 yrs of heavy hyrdo use. Not sure what to take or do for w/d's but being tired all the time might help me get by. Not and have not taken any other meds and want to stop & see if it's just the methadone making me tired or if there is something else wrong with me. Just did a blood test for a peak and trough for possible split dose and doc say no for the split but was below normal counts and could take more methadone. Being jacked up all the time for so many years on hydro's, i'm not sure how i am suppose to feel. I started  using hydro's in my thirty's and quit in my fifty's so there is a time gap that i got older and did'nt feel it until now. I will follow your post, thanks for sharing.

[Savas]

They tend not to split dose even though it's the best way to do it. DEA controlled substance issues and all that. They don't like not knowing where every drop is going.

I'm not sure if you'll get an accurate showing from skipping a day, but it could work. Until I got really low, I was tired all the time also.It stopped happening around 20. And evn now, when I stabilize on a dose, I start to get a little tired for part of the day after taking it.
Remember your body is totally out of whack and will be for almost a year or two after you stop. Especially if you've been a long time user.

[Savas]

They tend not to split dose even though it's the best way to do it. DEA controlled substance issues and all that. They don't like not knowing where every drop is going.

I'm not sure if you'll get an accurate showing from skipping a day, but it could work. Until I got really low, I was tired all the time also.It stopped happening around 20. And evn now, when I stabilize on a dose, I start to get a little tired for part of the day after taking it.
Remember your body is totally out of whack and will be for almost a year or two after you stop. Especially if you've been a long time user.

[Calzy]

I have never been at a stable dose. Right from the start i did not feel the benifit of 'done and went upto 200mg in 2 months just to feel better from the w/d of long term use of hydro's.The doctor at the clinic said he would do the split dose but my high and low counts were to close togeter. I went from not sleeping and needing xanax for the first few mos to noding out and sleepy all the time the last 4 mos.. I dont like all the side effects of 'done to want to stay on it but i worry what i'll do when i'm off and might crave my doc again. 10-4 on the out of whack part, what is a normal feeling anyway?

[wait2long]

i just want all my friends to know i am not ignoring you or any posts...my computer literally went blank last night and i am trying to figure out how to fix it, so Fladdict as soon as i get it fixed i will post, i am still doing fine with 10 mgs, i am doing okay, anf i hope you are okat also....be in touch soon!!!i cant even find my e-mail account??!   everyone have a great day!!!  

[wait2long]

woops sorry i meant to post elsewhere....

[Savas]

You know, there's a rebound effect that can happen if your on too much methadone. It's almost impossible to get this diagnosis, They don't like to acknowledge it. But if you're on too much, you get the nodding, and the dose doesn't last long enough. After 12-18 hours, you start feeling crappy.

There's also theories out that if you've been using opiates too long, you damage certain key systems and can never be normal again without them.
I think this is a crock. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's being used nowaday to keep many people on maintenance. The fact is, it takes a long time to heal the damages from long term habitual use. It can take years. Most people just give up from the continual suffering.

As far as feeling normal... when you've been using for a long time, you forget what "normal" is. I kind of remember it. It meant I had good days and bad days. Days I'd feel crappy, days I felt fine. Maybe allergies were affecting me, maybe a cold. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep.

An addict either feels fine because they've reached "optimal dose", or crappy from not enough or too much. The drugs are so busy trying to overpower any other physical or mental issues, you are hardly aware of them. So to me, normal would be off all drugs, and my body has stabilized to the best of its ability. It would be wonderful to feel good simply because it's a beautiful day, or crappy simply because I stayed up to late doing god knows what. Hopefully, I can have that again some day...
You might just have to accept that as long as you're using, you'll never be "stable". I know I'm not. My day is a continual roller coaster of how I feel based on my dose.
I wake up feeling crappy. Take my morning dose, stabilize and feel okay.
Around 2:30, I take my second dose. Feel crappy and "heavy" for an hour or two after. Then feel basically okay. Before bed, start to feel slightly blah. Go to bed. Wake up and repeat process.

I will say, as I get lower in dose, I feel better than I have in a long time. Colors are brighter, my sense of touch is more sensitive, I can actually have sex again and enjoy it! My thought processes have picked up, and my imagination is more active. I'm getting my sense of drive and ambition back. My sense of smell is coming back. I feel pain when I hurt myself (really feel it), My emotions run freer than they have in a long time (both good and bad). All these things are commonly lost when using drugs. I'd rather feel life, the good and the bad, than go through it in a drug induced haze.

Oh, Brave New World...!

[Savas]

Herre's the thread I was referring to. Start at the top, down here it wanders a bit. There's others on Amino Acid therapy and the like. I'll see if I can find it and pull it to the top too, Fladdict put it up.