Need help getting off hydro

[goldfish]

Hi, I'm looking for some advice.  I've been abusing pain killers since I was 15...I'm 31 now.  This has gotten way out of control.  I take approximately 15-17 Lorcet Plus a day.  I've tried detox, meetings, going cold turkey all with no luck.  I would like to try methadone, but I live in a rural area and the closest clinic I can find is approximately 3 hours away.  I cannot drive that far every day because I am a single mother with a full time job.  Do you have any suggestions for me??

[Thomas]

first of all, don't feel so bad about the 16 years, that's half the time I've been hooked on narcotics. I spent a full 12 years focused on Vics and got up to 75 vics a day (once or twice, 100 vics in a day). No I'm not a ghost. I have one of those one-in-a-thousand livers that seems to process tylenol rather well - at least that's what the addiction specialist says. I also developed a crude method for removing the tylenol. The point is, if I can get off of 75/day, you can beat 16 lorcets per day.

If the buprenorphine was available, I'd tell you to seek out the bup cure. Several posters on this forum have succeeded at that. Problem is, it's still illegal in most states for detox. Methadone, if you forgive me for saying so, is, in my opinion, substituting an even more-addicting drug for your current addictive drug. If I'm not mistaken (doc dan can correct me or expand on this), to get on methadone you have to register with the state or the feds as a drug addict. With computers taking an increasingly intrusive role in our health care system, methadone is a decision that could come back to haunt you.


If you can get yourself a week off without a lot of responsibilities to fulfill, and access to a few comparatively innocent drugs, only one by prescription, I can give you a do it yourself detox plan --- after which the meetings will mean and do a lot more for you.

Here's my tried-and-true do-it-yourself hydrocodone "cold turkey" detox protocol.

Supplies you'll need first:

As many Valium, Xanax, Librium or Klonopin that you can get your hands on.

--- first day off the lorcet, use enough Valium or whatever, to, if possible, sleep through most of the first couple days. Then start decreasing the dose until you're down to nothing in about 5 or 6 days. You'll have to do the math. The Valium or one of its sister drugs will help tremendously with the anxiety and, somewhat, with the body aches.

Around-the-clock access to either hot baths or a Jacuzzi.

--speaking of those goddamn mostly thigh cramps that seem to love to show up in the middle of the night, have that hot bath or Jacuzzi at the ready. Don't hesitate to spend the majority of the week in that hot water if it's what it takes to get you through it. You may be wrinkled, but you'll have your sanity. Don't underestimate what the hot baths can do to relieve the withdrawal discomfort. They really work. Heating pads between the thighs can help with those cramps, too, but not as much as the hot baths.

Brand-name-only Imodium (immodium) (over the counter at the supermarket)

-- if you're a normal hydro addict, you'll be getting the runs by no later than the second or third day off the lorcet. In my experience, it's an especially unpleasant variety. At the first impulse, take two or three and respond to returning urges with two tabs. It's important that you do it immediately.

L-Tyrosine (qty 50 of the 500mg caps) - an amino acid available at the health food store.

-- thanks spook for this info: chronic use of narcotics depletes the brain of several critical neurotransmitters responsible for well-being and mental performance and attitude.
Plus:
Bottle of 100 mg B6 caps

-- Spook says every other day, but my experience detoxing with this stuff says take 4000 (four thousand) mg. (8x500mg caps of L-Tyrosine) with two 100mg B6 caps every day for your "detox week" to provide your brain with the raw material it needs to replenish its stores of these neurotransmitters. Many feel the difference on the very first dose. ***Take it on an empty stomach, either first thing in the morning or at bed time. You can continue this regimen after the first week if it continues to make you feel good. I continue to use it every other day with very few exceptions. Goldfish: It will bring you back from the dead. Trust me!

Multi-vitamins (most junkies don't eat too well, so this one's just for good sense)

Anyway, if you want to do it yourself and have a chance of being free of all narcotics instead of getting hooked on methadone, one of the hardest to get off of, by the way, you might try my formula. (It's "battle-tested" and works!) One thing you don't want to do is become a registered drug addict. I'm not sure of the details, but I know you don't walk into a Methadone clinic and get what you want without registering with someone. Then you'll be dependant on that 3-hour drive (and the good graces of the clinic). I'm sure you can already see it dominating your life. Try my way, then find some strong meetings and "put your shoulder into it."

Either that, or find a detox clinic and go that route. But for someone on only 16 lorcet a day, Methadone is like going nuclear at the first sign of trouble.

Good luck. Post here if you want to talk about it.

[Jay-Jay]

Thomas, every time I come here and read your unexausting supply of wisdom I could just cry... You are a "God Send"... Keep replying everytime as if it was your first time explaining things to them.. I admire you very much... I know I could't keep giving of myself like you after I got better, I guess I am selfish and have a lot to learn from your selfless giving.... People out here need to hear of your wisdom, I remember the first time I read your comment and felt so good to have someone care about me individually.  Keep it up, each person needs to feel this special individual advise you give them..  Thanks for being you and keep it up!!!  I am learning on how to be a better person because of you...

Take care and God Bless...  

^j^ ^j^

[Toms Wife]

Can L-Tyrosin and B6 Caps be mixed/taken with Prozac?  Will any vitamins or mineral supplements interfer with this?  What about soy isoflavoids for hot flashes?

Lynda

[Thomas]

I honestly have no idea. All I now is it's supposed to be taken on an empty stomach with no food for about an hour or so. What I do, since I LOVE breakfast, is, take the L-Tyrosine and B6 the second I wake up. Then I do my shower and shave thing, etc. By that time, an hour's passed and I feel I can have some light breakfast.

Off the top of my head, I'd say this about the prozac. One of the neurotransmitters that L-Tyrosine helps build back up is norepinephrin (SP?) which is responsible for mental alertness and mental energy. It's been advised not to drink caffeine coffee for a few hours after taking the L-Tyrosine. Believe me, if you take the full 4000mg plus 200mg B6 with plenty of water, you won't need any coffee if you get what I mean. You feel WIDE awake and ready for action -- many times on the very first dose! (That's how it worked on me.) Also, Prozac is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor and may not conflict with the L-Tyrosine at all.

I suggest you take your prozac but just not any time near the L-Tyrosine. Take the Prozac with lunch, that would be my suggestion.

One caveat with the L-Tyrosine. I don't really know if it was the L-Tyrosine or the lousy diet I was observing, but out of maybe twenty days of L-Tyrosine doses, I had three mornings of the runs. Nothing really bad. Nothing burning, but I wanted to forewarn anyone who takes it. Remember, your drug use has depleted the neurotransmitters your brain needs to make you feel human again. An occasional bout of the runs (lasting only a few minutes -- not all day like the flu) is a small price to pay. That's another reason to take the stuff first thing on waking. If it's going to cause the runs, it will do so within about 30 minutes. It will be done and over with before you have to leave for work - that being the main point! If it's a problem, just lower the L-Tyrosine dose by a 1000 mg. Like I said, it's a rare occurrence and may never even happen to you. But the effect of rebuilding the dopamine and norepinephrin depleted by your drug use is only just short of miraculous. It's what every other detox formula was lacking. Try it for a week. See what happens!

Good luck. Let me know how it goes.

[Thomas]

Your comments flatter and honor me. I will continue to help all that I can in every way I know how. I'm a survivor of 30 years of abject narcotic addiction of all kinds in all environments suffering all manner of consequences including jail. If I can take this experience and turn it into something good, that's what I'll do. Thanks for your encouragement, Jay-Jay.

[Wizard]

Thomas as above again you come through in someones need... I'm starting day 9 on you formula and I'm really starting to feel just a little bit human again!  I was wondering how long to continue the L-tyrosine b6 routine? Did I understand you to say that you stay on it indefinitely?  It works wonders and the runs are as you say after the first day they seem to be slight and not all day...Thank God!...I also want to know when I should start tapering off the Ativan, and at what rate...I'm taking in  2- .5's the morning, 2-.5's in afternoon and 3- ,5's before bed.
Any help with this?  The light is getting Brighter each morning!
Thanks again
God Bless us all,
Power & Magick to you all,
Wizard

[spook]

I am not sure about you using this much Tyrosine or B6 (caution), you have the regime correct, but as far as my research goes, I cannot find any details about regular, long term use, in these high doses, it is probably OK, but I am only advising to take it say once a week at most, have a few months off etc, If somebody has detoxed and wants a Dopamine replenisher, go for it 3-4 grams a day for a week, but further continued use is unwise, Once the presynaptic vesicles are saturated with dopamine further use is futile, Also there are some sites now pushing it as a new tratment for depression, I found this info out 10 years ago, I could have marketed the stuff, so what.
point now they are saying to dose with amounts 300mg TID  that in my humble opion would be useless.You will not find sites saying to use amounts that I recomended, so they are again trying to get your money. beware, take care..

[Kata]

Hi all, first time posting. This site is a lifesaver. At 14 I suffered my first serious injury. At that time my body's incredible resistance to pain medication and local anesthesia was discovered. Since that time I've been in a serious car accident (at age 19) and in my mid 30's had to have both knees scoped and repaired 3 times w/6 months.  I've had 2 c-sections (one without the benefit of being sedated or having the local block work). Now I'm 38, dependent on Lorcet (took myself off Norco as the withdrawals came quicker and more vicious).  I'm only taking 3 to 4 a day!  Still I can't function without them, can't get rid of my chronic pain, which is debilitating.  As you all know, this leads to depression.  I have an HMO (need I say more) and have to go back to the doctor today because my last refill had less pills and no refills on the label.  I'm TERRIFIED of trying to go cold turkey as my husband is unaware of my dependency and I have a job and children to take care of.  No time to be down.  I'm inspired by this forum and just want you ALL to know how much I appreciate your sharing and especially the detox info.  I don't know what I'm going to do at this point.  But not feeling alone has been a tremendous boost.  God Bless you. Pray for me  please.  
Kata

[spook]

Thats right, when you notice the "light" again,thats the depression lifting, the light is beautiful.the colours should follow soon and then the shapes will appear and reality has the veil of gloom removed, it may be a relection, a flower anything but you notice the exquisite feeling.
60mg of Aurorix will do same. Tyrosine is natural though.

[Wizard]

Spook, thank you for the response and encouragement! I must say I've run to this site many times in the last 9 days and recieved nothing but enlightenment....sometimes lighter then others..you never cease to educate and sometimes entertain! LOL Me being the re-awakening Wizard that I am want to throw as much Power and Magick your way!!!! Although you sound like you have enough of your own! Thanks again!.............
Kata, I read your story and it sounds like so many of ours...we will be here for you in support anytime...We all seem to be in some state of use, recovery, or recovered!  There is hope, and LIGHT at the end of the tunnel! Seek it and ye shall recieve!
I will pray for you as I pray for all of us!
May the Light, Love and Magick of God shine upon us!
Wizard

[spook]

Thats right, correct, how I see it.
Kata, when the time is right, do not rush Opioid withdrawal as relapse may be immanent, you are in Physical Pain and deserve a chemical holiday, I think God created the Opium Poppy for some reason or maybe just a bit more decoration, like the other flowers?, maybe lapse of concentration??, maybe this or maybe that or did satan make it?.
Seriously? though are you sure you are addicted?, as the longer you want to stop and the more you are not in pain, the easier it will be. "There comes a time", "every junkies like a setting sun" (neil young), maybe not time to rise and shine yet???
just a thought....hey Im not running this planet..they are!
Will have to talk about "them" and deal with "them" sooner or later,(soon) cannot manipulate indefinately, people are getting wiser.
Thinking...Thinking..Thinking.
Must explore the relationship between thought and feeling, bit of rewiring. Program Corrupted, delete THEM!!!
Free yourself from the Brainwashing, cleanse your spirit.
I got to go have a shower now.
Good luck.

[Thomas]

didn't you say you were seeing your doc tomorrow to get refilled? It doesn't sound like you have to worry about the whole detox technique when you're expecting more in a matter of hours. At worst, if you've got some benzos like Valium or Xanax or Klonopin floating around, use them if it helps til your stuff comes through. And as long as you're using only four, and you don't live in some weird anti-drug continuum, I honestly can't imagine you having a problem continuing to get supplied at that rate.
If one doctor suddenly tightens up, dump him. Doctors are like highly educated plumbers. If one can't stop your leak, fire that one and hire another!

Very best of luck to you,

Thomas

[Thomas]

I've had some recent exposure to the whole benzo issue and I would advise you, when you decide to wean yourself off of them, that you break one .5 in half and decrease it by that much each week. The slower the better!

After taking the L-Tyrosine in such max but necessary quantities, I'd slow down a LITTLE bit -- for the first couple weeks I'd take between 1500 and 3000 mg plus the 200 mg B6 every other day. After that, I'd keep taking the stuff at whatever rate did the trick for me. I work as a tech writer for the software industry, and I can definitely tell the difference on the days I use L-Tyrosine and the days I don't. I rest my case.

Be talking to ya, Wiz

[Wizard]

Thanks for the info Thomas. Today is day 10 and I'm feeling pretty good. I seem to get a little cloudy head around late afternoon, but it's tolerable. I'm gonna start to decrease the recipe a little today and see what happens. Your support has been everything to me.
Bless you
Power & Magick 2U,
Wizard

[Dee]

Thomas, I have read your detox protocol..you say to basically try to knock yourself out for the first few days..naturally the imodium (immodium) will be started by at least the second day..then you say to start the L-tyrosine, B6...my question to you is this..the L-tyrosine and B6 is for 'mental energy...am I right to assume that this will not help at all with the 'physical pain' that comes with withdrawing? you know what I mean...the gut wrenching stomach pains (cramps) that comes with stopping the narcotic..
do you have any recomendations that will help with the pain, or is the 'knocking yourself out' the only way to deal with it..
in essence, there is no way to stop the stomach pains except for the little relief that the imodium (immodium) may bring??? I know that there is no 'miracle' way to get by it, but there must be something to help with the pain!?? thanks, take care, how are you doing? when you stopped the darvocet, was the stomach pain very bad..I think I could handle the sweating, leg cramps, weakness, ect, it's just the gut pain that I don't think I could handle..

[Jimenez]

There is a prescription drug called Lomotil that is a narcotic based anti-diarrhea medication. It does NOT make you high and actually has atropine placed in it to discourage it's abuse. You will get sick if you try to abuse it...it's a distant relative of Demerol...Anyway, if you can get a doctor to prescribe this, along with some Valium etc. you will get by a little easier than with the Immodium if the runs/cramps are one of your biggest obstacles. Take 2-3 of the Lomotil and even though you are withdrawing, your bowels will be just about normal or possibly slightly lose. Lomotil will effect the opiate receptors in your bowel and slow it all down. I have never noticed much of a decrease in withdrawal symptoms from taking this "narcotic", so I don't think it will interfere much with your detox. It's just not a strong enough opiate and is too cetralized in the bowel to interfere much with detox. The runs are horrible and one of the causes of relapse along with all the other things. To avoid just this one symptom is sometimes enough for some people to slip. In my mind - here is the best combination of drugs you can take when withdrawing: Lomotil - it will help and/or stop the runs, and Librax - it will sedate you slightly (it has the drug Librium in it - a Valium like sedative) and will also aid in any cramping for it also has a bowel "relaxer" in it. The combination of these two drugs in just slightly higher than prescribed dosages REALLY help. It's the mental part and the fatigue that'll get you after all this. Good luck...Really try to get one or both of the drugs I mentioned. Take care.

[Wizard]

Sorry to jump in here, and I'm sure Thomas will respond with somes words of knowledge, but I'd thought I'd share with you my last 10 days of "cold turkey" if you will. The Imodium (immodium) is a must,
the L-tyrosine b-6 mixter really help with not feeling completely drained...for the PAIN I used took 2 800 mg of Ibuprophen and that really took the edge off. I don't know you and don't suggest you do as much..You know your body and what you can take...May Peace and Love be with you.
In God's Light we shall be free!
Power & Magick be with you,
Wizard

[CannabisDave]

Here in Portland Oregon we have an "Acupuncture Addiction Treatment Clinic" which utilizes acupuncture for treating addiction. In addition to acupuncture, they also use various Chinese herbs to ease the discomfort of addiction.  When I was still on heroin six years ago, my girlfriend took me to the acupuncture clinic and they gave me various bottles of herbs to take. Some helped with the nasea, some with sleep, some with muscle aches, etc...they treated the symptoms of withdrawal and made it more bearable. I think that most large cities have shops that specialize in chinese herbal medicine, and any of them should have the herbs that treat symptoms of addiction. If you call them and ask, they should be able to help you. For anyone who has been addicted to opioids for a long time (about a year or more), I recommend using methadone. Methadone is NOT the bad drug that some people make it out to be. It is the least addicting opioid, and the easiest to get off. It does take a long time, but you can SLOWLY titrate your dose down comfortably.  Many of us who have been addicts for many years NEED to be on methadone. Methadone can give you a "normal" life when nothing else will, so don't give up on it because of all the bad rumours about it. I didn't try methadone because of the bad things I heard about it, and I suffered for about THIRTY years as a result. Now I wish that I'd gotten on methadone almost 30 years ago!  I've gotten my dose down to just one 10m. tablet 3-4 times a day, and I can get by on just 2 of them daily. That relatively small dose of methadone allows me to feel "normal" without having any bad side-effects. ON higher doses I suffered from constipation, sweating and low libido, but those negative side-effects are gone now that I'm taking smaller amounts in split-doses. If you have to get methadone at a clinic and dose all at once each day, then it's less effective and causes more negative side-effects.  Dosing all at once makes you over-medicated at first, and then you "crash" later, while dosing at a clinic puts you in contact with other drug users everyday - quiting drugs while going to a clinic is very difficult, if not impossible. Everyone on methadone should educate their doctors about it, and about how horrible the clinics are, because your doctor CAN prescribe methadone to treat the "pain" of addiction. They aren't supposed to treat "addiction", but they CAN treat pain, and addiction causes pain!!!

[Thomas]

Dear Dianne,
Yep, the idea is to knock yourself on your own ass with the Valium and spend as much time in hot baths or Jacuzzis for the aches. If it helps, take enteric aspirin or advil.

Over ten years ago, I paid top buck for an in-house detox center and, I kid you not, this is how my Valium dosage was administered:

40mg Valium (4 x 10mg “big” Vals) every four hours on the first day. The second day, 35mg every four, the third day, 30mg every four, etc.

That dosage kept me well and out of it. Of course, I was thankful for any relief I could get. Detox centers will also give you a patch, the med’s name escapes me, something like “clozapine” (but NOT clozapine – that’s for schizophrenic patients). The purpose of these patches is to help mediate the very withdrawal symptoms you speak of.

Now, the prevailing theory I come across is that narcotic withdrawal is caused by the body first being fooled by opiate endorphin look-alikes to stop producing its own endorphins. When the opiates run out, the mind is left with no endorphins, imitation or otherwise. The L-Tyrosine, with luck, will get you feeling up enough to start some mild exercise like walking or swimming (I wouldn’t ride a bike on all that Valium!). Exercise is the surest way I know to stimulate the brain into producing endorphins. It’s either that or go sign up at the methadone clinic or at least a good detox center.

For me, Vicodin withdrawal was like a very bad flu, without the kind of pronounced gut aches you’re getting. Darvon withdrawal, on the other hand, after years of using it daily,mind you, produced almost unbearable body aches. What are you coming down from, again? If it’s OXY, I’m afraid I don’t have much experience with oxy withdrawal. The few times I’ve had to handle that, I got some Darvon-N or Darvocet-N and used that with the Valium. That helped with some of the oxy withdrawal symptoms. Many heroin addicts “get by” with Darvon when times are tight.

Let me know how you’re doing …..


Tom

[cindi]

Thank you so much for the e-mail...your words were very encouraging and kind...i could not recall what you detoxed from...and really how horrible was it for you...gotta run catch up with you later     love to all    cin

[Wizard]

Nice to hear from you too! :-) To answer your question Cin, I was taking 60 mg's of Vicodin, 1050mg's Percocet, 1050 mg's Soma in the morning, and 80mg's oxycontin in the afternoon.....quite a cocktail there towards the end.........Been on and off opiates for 30 years amongst other things...mostly opiates for the last ten. I knew for me, I reached the end when 11 days ago I reached for a bottle of codien cough syrup because my Pharmicist "friend" who never called in my refills closed his pharmacy and gave me 1 day notice......figured it was as good a time as any to be reborn again! Still in need of some pain management but I want off the "Dragon" any way I can......10 days today opiate free and  counting. I don't think I could've done it without you people as encouragement.  I owe you all my life....of course that's through the hands of GOD praise the Lord..Without Him there's no you, without you there's no me.
WOW! What a concept! GEEZE my mind is working like a steel trap!
ROFLMAO!

[Wizard]

Wow almost forgot my sign off!
God Bless Us All,
Power & Magick 2U
Love,
Wizard...........Phewwww! now I got it!

[cindi]

Wow,  were the withdrawals pretty horrendous?   I'm glad to see you are doing good...Please keep it up,,,,,My thoughts and prayers are with you, and BTW Wizard..you have been such encouragement and inspiration to me, more than you can imagine......love to all cin

[cindi]

Hi Diane,  I saw your post and I am hoping that you are ok....are things getting better for you?

[SimpsonFan]

I was curious as to the long term affects of hydrocone or other codeine painkillers, I am aware of constipation and difficulty urinating but it seems that these can be fixed with dietary supplements. Aside from withdrawl symptoms from codeine based pain killers are there any long term affects whether they be physical or psychological?
   I am also curious as to how long it takes for someone to become addicted to codeine? I know it would vary person to person and the strength of the addiction would manifest over time, but just like a ballpark of how long it take one was using only a few times a month (roughly about 100-200mg between 2-4 times monthly) before the person would have trouble stopping usage and acquiring withdrawl symptoms?

[Wizard]

Cin It is a pleasure to write back and forth to you even though we do discuss so much pain....as you well know we are very much alike in histories in ways... as I said before I FEEL a kinship to you.as far as how horrendous the W.Ds. are, were, in the begining few days I did an awful lot of crying while reading and writing these posts.......a few times the "Dragon" called pretty bad but I came here with the grace of God who in his divine power led me to this site. Here I met all of you who as I stumbeled you held me up and gave me the courage to shut the "Dragon" up. Cin, when you are in need PLEASE e-mail or post to me because we can feed off of each other in positive ways.
I monitor my mail ALL day long at work and in the evening at home as well as this site now....I have nothing more important to me right now then to get right with myself so I can then get right with my family....I already feel right with all of you..I also want to give back like yourself, Thomas, Spook and the rest..(sorry if I didn't name everybody but you know who you are).............Spook said when the opiate depression starts to recede, the light gets brighter!  Well tonight Lady I'm GLOWING! Praise the Lord!  Good things ahead...I must ALWAYS think this way and with Gods good grace and all your support I WILL SHINE..So will you!
May you find Peace and Light in the coming days...and if it gets gloomy just reach out to me and I'll reach right back to help as you have done!
Good night for now Cin,
God Bless you and your home,
Power & Magick 2U,
Wizard

[Thomas]

Your real physical threat is from the Tylenol in the Vicodin. Tylenol can be very toxic to the liver, even over short periods of time. Combine Tylenol with alcohol and you have impending liver death. I sympathize with your friend, though. When you're just starting out, your brain's sensitivity to the opioids and opiates in these drugs is wonderful. Though I don't do it anymore, I love to take rx narcotics. The best mind candy around. Too bad it winds up costing. And it gets everyone. You can take stool softeners and metamucil to counteract the constipation, but there's not a single thing you can do to make yourself fall out of love with the feeling, to forget the state-of-mind those things can lead you to.

Some can get into them overnight like any other drug and be through with them in a few months. But those of us who fall in love with the stuff are in it for our careers.

[spook]

Keep up the good work, it is worth it, when you start REALLY feeling again, especially if you do have some strong spirituality, you realize what happened, it is like a dark hole, and until you climb out you CANNOT see it, the Euphoria from the drug makes you think you feel good, but its not REAL, if you keep off for a year or so and keep away from temptation you will get your soul back.Remember you will start to Feel again, that means both good and bad feelings, soon music will take you places.you will get back the strength that the drug took from you.I do not know how you started or why, but if their is something in your life that you suppressed or pain or stress behind it, you will have to deal with these as they emerge, the initial spiritual rebirth is overwelming, but remember their is a let down, just push on. Sometimes many attempts are necessary. It can take 30 years, who knows??Having people to love you helps a lot and being around positive happy people. Beware of pretenders they seek only your energy, and ultimately cannot give back. Reach out and help, but expect bitten fingers occassionally.Find happiness in yourself and become a giver.its your nature.
Life.
Don`t be a slave to a lost cause.
Tyrosine 4g empty tummy, you know the story......

[Wizard]

Thanks for the post of encouragement! :-) I always welcome you witty candor! Today is day 12 and I'm feeling pretty dang good considering what I was putting into body and soul...Hopefully with Gods help, no more! About the l-tyrosine regement..I'm feeling pretty good now so should I continue every other day or back off? What do you think?
Power and Magick 2U
Wizard

[cindi]

Hey thanks for the e-mail  i thoroughly enjoy your mail and your posts..you are a very wise person  Spook is very right about the pretenders...and being around happy positive people...We al have our down days.or even weeks...and I know you can tell which company to keep..and those seeking as spook says only your energy...you said the other day we as in you and I can feed off each other and other people in a positive way...this is good...and surrounding yourself not only with the love of family and friends but you have to be ok with yourself, and love yourself...my husband is my best friend and I think your wife is your's  but that does not mean that we cannot care about other people and their feelings...we tend to understand other addicts since that is what we are...the computer is a wonderful thing for meeting people  talking etc. but I think it was Brighty that said we cannot let it take the place of the real thing.....get out and enjoy the world also so...with that I have to go and wash the car  LOL   talk to ya later after I'm done we can finish the conversation  LOL        love to all cin

[ssfr]

hey everyone- have read these threads for a while now, but have lacked the conviction or courage to finally take a stand- i wont bore you with the details of how my addiction to hydrocodene began (10mg x 16-20 daily), as i am sure everyone has similiar situations- my wife died coupled with a severly deteroriating hip joint and several willing doctors. anyway in reading some of the advice i for the first time in several years am starting to get hope- here is my question- i went to  new doctor couple of days ago- he stated due to my physical condition, i needed continous pain relief- and prescribed duragesic pain patches (25mg) and they are good for three days- you absolutely do NOT get any sort of buzz off of them- buts that ok- i havent really gotten a buzz off the hydrocodone for a long time anyway. doc said the patch was equivelent to 67.5 mg of hydrocodone daily. the great thing is that since i put the patch on the withdrawal symptons have been minimal- (actually i have taken a couple of 7.5s but not too many for the "break through" pain). i am not so stupid to think that i am not substituting one addictive mechanism for another, but i cant help but feel that since there is absolutely no "high" from the patch, that i am making some sort of progress psycologically speaking- and boy does that thought make me feel good- anyway- i wonder why this avenue is not persued by folks trying to get off the pills, and secondly, does anyone have a suggestions on how to wean themselves off the patch? i sort of understand the philosphy of weaning from pills, although i have been too cowardly to do so, but i suppose that i will still have to "wean" myself off the patch at some point in time- any suggestions or help you can offer?  there seems to be some really good, heartfelt advice offered here-
thanx for a help you can give

[joe schmow]

Hello All,

I have been on hydrocodone for about 2 years. I am now taking 15 to 25 mg 2 to 3 times daily. The time has come that I realize this is controlling and ruining my life. I overcame a methamphetamine and cocaine addiction about 5 years ago on my own and thought I knew enough about the ins and outs of addiction to control this "little pharmiceutical" thing. I was wrong..

My question is what should I expect going cold turkey? Also, can going cold turkey without the aid of a physician be dangerous? Any help or encouragement would be greatly appreciated...

Joe Scmow.

[cindi]

Sorry to interrupt this thread but once again the forum has reached it's question quota for the day..A very good friend of mine that has been suffering with Fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome told me about a dietary supplement called NADH that she swears really gives her a total natural boost of energy  very similar to L-Tyrosine  has anyone ever heard of this NADH?  ..She said she thinks it is some kind of nucleac protein something or other....I would appreciate any info    thanks  Love to all   cindi

[ssfr]

joe- if you want to take a little time to read all of the different threads and postings, i think you will honestly find some pretty good answers to your questions- to everyone else- i posted a question about the duragesic patches- i have not seen any discussions about that, and my inquiry is sincere, and if anyone has any info that could be helpful to me, than i would greatly appreciate any answers or help- thanx

ssfr

[spook]

Back off and stop, now wait until the light fades, if it does, go USE: 3-4 g`s single dose, just once, I find it acts within an hour and the effects are still evident 3-4 days later.

One does not want to deplete essential enzymes, coenzymes, cofactors, or create negative feedback loops on presynapic auto receptors (regulators)for your Dopaminergic neurons activity.

Use minimally, as overuse will cause sensory habituation (relative indifference to its wellbeing inducing effects) regardless of above biochemical tolerance factors.
OK???

Everthing in moderation, less the better!!!.

Find some internal or external stimuli, other than chemicals. Even this site if you enjoy.

Push on through, to the otherside.

Don`t shut the door behind you. stay focused.

[spook]

It is not life threatening going cold turkey and sometimes it is the fastest and most meaningful way to do it, you will learn a lot about your hidden fears, repressed memories, futile egocentric strivings and emotional insecurities.

You can expect the following; Withdrawal, central effects: major reduction in nucleus accumbens dopamine release and dynorphin (endogenous opioid) levels, and 300% increase in norepinephrine release in hippocampus, nucleus accumbens, and locus coeruleus.
Immediate symptoms of withdrawal: restlessness, drug craving, sweating, extreme anxiety, depression, irritability, dysphoria, fever, chills, violent retching and vomiting, increased respiratory rate (panting), cramping, insomnia, explosive diarrhea? (not my wording, but what the hell), and intense aches and pains....all not considered to be lifethreatening.

Magnitude of acute withdrawal symptoms depends on: dose of opioid, frequency of previous drug administration, and duration of drug dependence.

Protracted abstinence syndrome: begins when acute phase of opioid withdrawal ends and persists up to 6 mnths: depression, abnormal responses to stressful situations, drug hunger, decreased self-esteem, anxiety, and other psychological disturbances.

Recurrence or expression of underlying personality problems that drug use may have masked should be expected, diagnosed, and treated appropriately.

Can you handle this?????

Or do you want something to boost Dopamine, attenuate Norepinephrine excretion and an anticholinergic (not mentioned above).AcetylCholine is released in excessive amounts during Acute withdrawal from basal ganglionic neurons,(the Striatum).
Those would be: Clonidine for Norepinephrine(locus ceruelus, etc): Benzhexol for acetylcholine excess(basal ganglia): Tyrosine for the Dopamine depletion(various neurological areas).
And a Benzodiazepine for general GABA overactivity.

HELLO:!!!If you have read this much your are totally confused now, in plain english ,you will feel like ****.

[susanlea]

You are good! You explained in perfectly, in a nutshell! I remember watching him because he became suicidal and paranoid, you can't do it alone......Susanlea

[Francoise]

"If I can take this experience and turn it into something good, that's what I'll do."

That's what you ARE doing. You're taking the lemons of your life and making lemonade for the rest of us. What you are doing for your karma can't be bought with silver nor gold. Keep going forward friend; they don't call it the Infinite Path for nothing.

Francoise

[cindi]

Joe,  Thomas has a tried and true method for detoxing, one that he admits to using and he does swear by it,,,also i have read it many times and I have to say that it does sound very reasonable...cold turkey is never comfortable...I like to compare it to giving birth...it was fun while you were doing it, (making the baby) it hurts like hell trying to push it out but when all is said and done it was all well worth it...look somewhere above for thomas recipe for detox,  and to Francoise and Thomas,  I like what you said about the lemonaid...from what  have observed , Thomas has always as long as I have been posting herehas been a very upbeat motivated person..that doesn't pull any punches...Thomas, you always seem to be moving forward and you are always so positive about life in general..You have always had nothing but kind words for me and i do appreciate that.....you will continue to move forward and who, better than you  deserve it,, you have been struggling with this addiction for what 30 years ?  you deserve this chance to be clean but more importantly you deserve thae chance to be clean AND serene....love to all    cin

[pelle1985]

Hey Cindi,

I have been using NADH the last month or so, along with the L-Tyrosine and vitamin B supplements.  I can definitely tell the difference the days I do not use these!  The days I do, I feel much more mentally alert and like some of the post-acute withdrawal symptoms (forgetfulness, absent-mindedness, and the like) seem to fade somewhat.  I know these aren't "magic" cures, but as they are not addictive and seem to be helping, I am all for them!  The only problem with the NADH (which is kind of related to vitamin B as far as I can tell -- it's classified as an antioxidant -- if you type "NADH" into any search engine, you will find lots of info -- just be sure you read from several sites, and keep in mind that some sites are trying to sell you the stuff, which creates bias) is the price so far -- I pay just under $10 at Wal-Mart for 8 10mg tablets, which are to be dissolved under the tongue.  If you or anyone else has heard of a less expensive source, please post!  I really have noticed a difference in mental and, to a lesser but noticable extent, physical energy since taking this.  As far as I know and have read on the net, there seem to be no harmful interactions or side effects, but don't take just my word, of course -- do your own research and see what you think.  In any case, let me know what you think.

Peace,
Pelle

[cindi]

thanks Pelle,  i am going to check out the Nadh later on  just came home from taking my 7 year old to the hospital  thought she broke her foot   thank God it is a sprain....a friend of mine who taold me about the NADH did say that is quite expensive,,something lie $4.00 a pill she had been paying $12.00 for 8 so your's is cheaper...but if I can find it for less, (and I'm a great bargain hunter  LOL)  I'll be sure and let you know          :) cin

[pelle1985]

Thanks, Cindi.  As you can see, I was actually able to start a thread about this, to which Spook has already replied.  My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your daughter and I hope her foot is feeling better as soon as possible.

Peace,
Pelle

[cindi]

Thanks for your help  Yes,I saw your post above...my daughter is hurting pretty good and God love her she never complains..she did lie and say it was better because she wanted to go to the bikd safety day  LOL her little ankle is so swollen and bruised and I know she is hurting,,,Motrin and Tylenol is just not helping her but she does have on an orthopedic shoe....thanks you for thinking of her..it is so sad to see a child hurt....if I could I would hurt for her...have a nice weekend     :)   cin

[Thomas]

thanks for the kind ones.

[happy_girl~]

I am so glad I found your words on this day! My name is Pam I am a housewife from California. Several surgeries over the past 10 years have left me a slave to Vicodin Es. Today, my husband and my PCP had a little chat about how I am just, sraight, cutoff!
Scared, emotional, but always hopeful, I asked jeeves about Vicodin Withraw, and here I am!
Crying at my computer because all of your stories meant so much.
Especially the "home remody" I don't know how to thank you!
Asking for any help advise or anything
gratefully,
Happy_girl~

[Wizard]

First, don't panic. If you've read the threads you know a lot of us have and ARE doing it too! Have a lot of Imodium (immodium) handy the first few days. Go back and read one of Thomas' posts to me with the L-Tyrosine B-6 regiment that he got from spook. It worked wonders for me and I'm on day 16 or 17 now...geeze I can't remember :-) LOL YOU CAN DO IT!! We all will be here cheering you on and catching you if you fall...I will personally keep you in my prayers as I pray for all of us (for me especially lol)!
Magick & Power 2U happy_girl,
may Gods light shine upon you and your family,
Wizard

[Deja]

Hi,

I'm new to posting here too and I want to tell you that thanks to all these wonderful caring souls on this board I am almost through my first week narcotic free.  Oxycontin and Vicodin-ES were my thing.  Long term chronic pain patient, host of probs that make me a legitimate person to prescribe these drugs for.  It's been more than 5 years since I've known what it's like to function without pills.  I didn't always take them as prescribed and was chewing my oxy and using Soma to enhance everything.

Keep reading and posting here! You will find support and encouragement.  

You are probably going to be pretty uncomfortable.  It's not going to be easy.  Set some time aside to just *be* - the first few days are the worst.  I didn't have it as bad as some on here and I am very fortunate for that considering how much I was using and how long I was on it.  

I still feel pretty gross on and off.  I'm sure you've read all the symptoms of withdrawal.  Listen to these guys- they know their stuff!  I'm home all day and I'll check the board often to see how you are doing. Talking with someone who understands helps tons, especially if you are alone all day.

You can do it!  It sucks that you were forced into this situation.  I know you are scared, but it's going to be better soon. I promise!


My thoughts are with you!
Stay Strong,
Deja

[whitedove]

Well, like everyone else here, I'm trying to get off this hydrocodone too!!!!  I cannot believe that I have been on 3 x as much codeine and had less difficulty going off of it in rehab, 3 years ago.

I am currently taking 10mg/500mg tablets (9.5 a day) for 3 days and decreasing by .5 each 3 days per my Dr.'s instructions.  However, this is NOT working!!  The pain is still unbearable at times and the withdrawal symptoms are so apparent, I can't work and really need the $$.

I really appreciate hearing about the L-Tyrosine and the B-6;  I hadn't thought about the Immodium, but yeah, it only takes about 12 hrs and I'm needing it; perhaps, it is due to the large dosage.  However, I do feel better knowing there are others out there taking far more than me, as bad as that sounds.  BUT, it gives me great hope and I thank everyone for their comments.

I have been up since 2:30 a.m. sweating, etc. so I need to get myself around and to the store for the vitamins, etc. and get going.  

Now, what I want to clarify though, is this:

THOMAS - Did I understand you to say, take 2 or 3 HYDROCODONE immediately and not wait, if necessary?

Or, did you say go off of all hydrocodone right away and begin the xanax, klonipin, etc. instead and take 2 or 3 of those right away, if necessary?  Sleeping is hard.  The Dr. gave me seroquel.  It seems to help some.  What do you think of that?  I can't take clonidine.  It really makes me "weirded out".  I can take vistaril which seems to help some too.  Spook, thanks for your info too.

Sounds like I need to go to Walmart now.  Thanks everybody.  I'm so thankful I found you all.  Please feel free to write me.  I would love feedback; I need all the support I can get; I know you understand.

***@****

[Brighty]

Anyone who would choose such a lovely screen name must be a very sweet peaceful person !! I am unable to help you... but you have questions for Thomas... so it helps to post from Whitedove to Thomas so he sees it... I know sometimes if I see posts that do not specify to whom, then I may overlook them.. just a suggestion... will make sure Thomas is alerted so he can help you. Love, Brighty

[happy_girl~]

I was hoping you would bless me personally! Thanks so much guys! You will never know the comfort you have bestowed upon me :)
I need to explain a bit more though. I not only have had chronic pain, but now I think it is more addiction than anything. I will pop 5 or 6 Vicodin Es to get the energy to get up and be the mother & wife I should be. I am a perfect expample of the closet addict. I am an active part of my community. Volunteering my extra time for the police department in thier Domestic Violence program. I also take 4 or 5 Xanax every night to go to sleep! I have never told anyone till now. And man does it feel GOOD! I am a good person with alot of friends, but not one understands what I am going though! I fear mostly of falling down and being lazy.
Stupid huh? I have had so many people tell me how these pills are suppresing my personality. Normally, I am outgoing and bubbly. Since my last thread I have swindled them to give my pills back!! Help!!  
happy_girl~

[Wizard]

If you want to do this you HAVE to quit swindling! Talk about closets, I kept mine a secret for almost twenty years! My daughter  and Mother-in-law are both drug abuse counselers! LOL
(not really funny)...They still don't know..I only told my wife a couple of weeks ago. Taht was a bigger challenge then kicking for me. I'm now about 17 days or so clean.YOU CAN do it if try. But you got to be honest to yourself first and and then get rid of the pills. No one is helping giving them back to you.
Don't give up and don't despair! We are all here cheering you on!
Just follow the Light!
I'll keep you in my prayers tonight,
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & light on you and your family,
Wizard

[whitedove]

Thank you for your compliment; I needed it this a.m.  AND, I appreciate your advice about sending directly to a person.  I will do that.  Did you say you already forwarded my ? to Thomas?  I understood it that way.  I looked for more information about you that you had posted and didn't see any.  Were you also an addict/slave to this horrible medicine?

***@**** - feel free to send here
"white dove"

[whitedove]

I am so glad you explained more because, I am right there with you; I have taken 5 or 6 just to get up, use the xanax, etc. etc.  But, my psychiatrist now has control of the medication that he dispenses to my husband, who in turn dispenses it to me, as we taper.  However, this site has given me SUCH HOPE, far beyond anything the Dr. has.  Keep it up.  Doesn't admitting things feel good??!!  AND, there are such wonderful people on the site.  I could read all day, if I didn't have to work, take care of kids, etc. etc.  That's why I'm running out this a.m. to get the L-Tyrosine.  I couldn't find it at our local pharmacy last night.

whitedove

[happy_girl~]

Talk about a mess! I have been trying to explain to husband that I just can't go from 20 vics a day to 4! Overnight, none the less, and the fact I have 3 tumors in my throat and a fine needle biopsy Monday! And I am petrified of needles! Sorry about my luck huh? lol He is playing amatuer detox man and in the process not giving me props for doings as well as I am so far (down to 8 a day). He just doesn't understand I feel like **** doing 8 a day. He is so critical, but I know he is just trying to help. Can anyone give some input PLEASE! Maybe if he reads a thread he will understand. I am still in pain everytime I swallow. It is not just addiction. He is going to ruin our marriage trying to do this before my surgery. He is being so insensitive, and he keeps saying "its the drugs talking not you"
I am at my wits end help wizard! Deja! whitedove! anyone!
drama for your mama
happy_girl~

[cindi]

You are not unlike many of us here,  we have used to be superwoman...alot of the time the chronic pain has led us in that direction...I must have missed something about your husband,,,is he is recovery?  does he have control of your pills?sometimes when we taper maybe it is best if someone else helps us but i don't know your situation   could you please fill me in a little bit..I do feel for you and understand what you are going through     hope to hear from you soon    love cin

[Wizard]

I'm sorry to hear the route your husband and doc are taking especially before what you have to do Monday. :-( Keep up hope though and don't despair. You may have answered your own question in your post...maybe if you do have your husband read a few strings he might have a little more compassion for your situation....I know it seems far away now but there is light at the end of this. I'll be praying for you, and good luck with your husband.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Wizard

[happy_girl~]

I am sorry I havn't been more specific, we live in our 27ft travel trailer right now and I have no privacy. My husband is trying to moniter my pills for me and is is causing major bad ju-ju. I am so happy to have such a wonderful husband who loves me so much. He is afraid I will kill myself taking all these vics.
He is right, but he should wait until after the surgery.
My 2 children are in our small trailer and it is stressful enough as it is! He is resent ful that I was spending $5 per vicodin two days after my #50 was refilled. Now that I have been honest about my problem and got my refill on Thursday 17th, they would already be gone and I would be out hussling more. Instead I have taken them like I should and am very proud of myself. He doesn't understand! Going form 20 per day to 7 per day is a great accomplishment for me. I love him with everything inside of me. But he is a man who doesn't drink smoke etc. And simply doesn't understand.
I am so happy I found all of you! I look foreward everyday to getting on-line and checking on all of you :)
your advice is golden, the support I get here is priceless
Forever grateful,
Happy_girl~

[happy_girl~]

I am sorry I havn't been more specific, we live in our 27ft travel trailer right now and I have no privacy. My husband is trying to moniter my pills for me and is is causing major bad ju-ju. I am so happy to have such a wonderful husband who loves me so much. He is afraid I will kill myself taking all these vics.
He is right, but he should wait until after the surgery.
My 2 children are in our small trailer and it is stressful enough as it is! He is resent ful that I was spending $5 per vicodin two days after my #50 was refilled. Now that I have been honest about my problem and got my refill on Thursday 17th, they would already be gone and I would be out hussling more. Instead I have taken them like I should and am very proud of myself. He doesn't understand! Going form 20 per day to 7 per day is a great accomplishment for me. I love him with everything inside of me. But he is a man who doesn't drink smoke etc. And simply doesn't understand.
I am so happy I found all of you! I look foreward everyday to getting on-line and checking on all of you :)
your advice is golden, the support I get here is priceless
Forever grateful,
Happy_girl~

[Brighty]

Hi.. well Thomas has heard you need info.. you posted your e-mail so perhaps he will respond that way !! :-) There are so many threads here and so many good people it's hard to acknowledge everyone all the time... we are one big family bumping into eachother from time to time. I am not an addict but my daughter is in recovery for 14 months now from a heroin addiction.. too long to repeat... everyone here has heard it and it's been so good for me to be here... I have made some great friends... it really has changed my life... hard to believe that I would ever say that about an internet forum !!! This is a good one. :-)) Love, Brighty

[whitedove]

Boy, do I understand about the "husband" issue.  We have fought battle after battle about the medication since I admitted my addiction to opiate drugs, several years ago.  It's a long story but for now, I'll make it short and say to you, be proud of YOUR accomplishment.  MY God, I can't believe you were able to drop the quantity of pills like you did.  That's unbelievable and quite a miracle!!  My husband and my Dr. have control of my meds and it STINKS!!  I hate asking, begging, etc.  BECAUSE, now, there is no room for latitude.  It is out of my hands.  I can't even have the bottle in my possession.  If I tried something like that again, I'd lose it all.  AND, I don't want that.  But, damn, it's hard.  Going through withdrawals is something that your husband can't possibly understand or emphathize with unless he's been there so as hard as that is to accept, we must.  I can't tell you how many fights we've had.  However, we do re-bound from them and he understands that addiction is a disease, after having been to educational sessions, when I was in rehab 3 years ago.  

It's just frustrating to be HERE again.  I was doing so good until a prescription came my way, after a root canal.  

I got the vitamin B6 and I'm trying to get the energy to go get the L-Tyrosine and NADH today but I'm so tired from fighting this and I have a MIGRAINE.  Meanwhile, I wait for my husband to pick up my pills at the Dr.'s office that I'm allotted for the next 2 days and bring my allotted amount home for lunch (ha, ha).  I'm interested in the patch that they talked about in the NADH section.  Take a look at it.  It's addressed to me.  I'm going to ask my Dr. about it today.  Let me know how you are doing.

My best of thoughts are with you.  We all need each other.

Fondly,

whitedove
***@****

[happy_girl~]

Thank you so much for you encouragement sister! We are in the same boat. Today is my Biopsy eeek. The doctor was supposed to call in a sedative and FORGOT~! Oh well at least it is only a few minuts of pain, and then we will know if it is Cancer or not. The relief will be worth it. Mt honey also takes my bottle, but via my request. I am smarter than this! I know better, it is just trying to fight the damn addiction. I am in search of my natural energy that made me a social butterfly. I know because all my friends tell me everyday how much they miss it.
I totally understand where you are comming from honey, we will make it through this together! Write me anytime :)
Hi wizard & Deja write me I need you guys too!
***@****
peace and love,
happy_girl~

[Wizard]

I think today was your biopsy if I remember right. I hope it went well. Sounds like you have the right attitude going for you now. Keep it up! Remember the light at the end of the tunnel.If you keep focused you can do it. I will keep praying for you and your family. It sounds now like your husband has your best interest at heart. It helps to have support at home. If things get rough and it's not there, then come to this forum and someone will always let you lean on them.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace and Light on you and your own,
Wiz

[whitedove]

I went to our local health food store and talked with the "expert" about the vitamins, L-Tyrosine, etc. He said the L-Tyrosine was perfect for withdrawals from alcohol and medications like hydrocodone.  He said that it, by itself, with a multi-vitamin, would help. He said the B-6 could/would help too, but not necessarily essential, since a multi-vitamin had B-6 in it.  He printed off some literature too, that was very helpful about the L-Tyrosine and it states right on it, that it helps with withdrawals. So Thomas, you know what you are talking about!!!  Thank you ever so much!!

Now, that my dosage is lower on hydrocodone, I'm feeling less of the withdrawal pain but tired so I'm hoping the vitamins/L-Tyrosine will help.

I am so thankful for this site and everyone that is so honest.  God bless and have a good day.  I had to substitute teach today and tomorrow and thanks to all of this support, I know I can do it!!

white dove
Pam

[Wizard]

Pam, you hang in there! Thomas was right about the formuls. I used it for the 1st ten days and it really helped. I as coming off a lot of opiates and it kept my energy up as well as my spirits.We are all in your corner and I'm praying for ya!
Power & Magick 2 U,
Wizard

[whitedove]

Good morning and thank you for your comment.  I finally got both the L-Tyrosine and the Vitamin B6; the health food store said a good multi-vitamin probably had enough of the B6 but ........ I'd rather add to it since, you all have had such success.  He did not recommend the NADH or NHAD, whichever the proper way to say it, is.

I have to get ready to teach but, I wanted to say thank you because I'm rather frustrated right now with the withdrawal process and if you read any of my other comments from this a.m. to Susan leah, Thomas and Angelica, you'll understand.

I would appreciate any more of your feedback.  You're great!  I'm so thankful I found all of you guys/gals!!

whitedove
Pam (***@****)

[Wizard]

Pam, try to stay focused. I know it's hard but the Light is there for you if you just keep reaching and don't despair! I'm into around 27 days now and I can tell you it just keeps getting brighter each day. When it gets frustrating adn if you have no one to turn to, you pray and COME here! There is ALWAYS a smile :-), a shoulder to lean on, an ear to listen and a friend who will cyber hug you. I tell you from my heart the "angels" here with Gods good grace have helped me through this. Of course my wife has been there too, but her not being a user of anything sometimes we need to unload with others who have been there. I will keep you my prayers.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on you and your family,
Wizard

[Jay-Jay]

You are right about what you said about ENADA... when I heard of it I imediatly tried it and nothing happend, actually I felt out of sorts and lazy... I have noticed that the ENADA thread was deleted.. I am glad cause desperate people like me will try anything and waste money... Good intending people gave the product number out on the thead and people like me jumped at the chance... I would stick with the L-Tryosine.. To be truthfull I really didn't give the L-Tryosine a chance because it had changed my bowel movements and dare I say color LOLOLOL.... However I was reading some of Thomas's posts and he said that that would happen at first so I am going to try it again... Tom stressed exercise with it so that is what I am going to do... I exercised with the ENADA and nothing.. I didn't like what it was doing to my brain, felt like I was neutralized or something, had no desire for anything at all good or bad...  Anyhoot this is just my 2 cents.. PS.. Thomas, if you are reading this I just want to say that you inspired me to participate more... Thanks & Thanks to all....  xoxoxox

^j^ ^j^

[whitedove]

Last night was awful; I am now down to 8 pills a day, which doesn't sound that bad; I take 4 in the a.m. 1st thing, wait about 4 hours, take 2 more and then wait until about 3:00 p.m. and take the last 2 for the day.

Last night, for some unknown reason, I went bullistic with my emotions, feelings, withdrawal symptoms, etc.  I don't understand.  Nothing has been different, with the exception of a small drop of .5 every 3 days in these pills.  Why now would I feel so crazy?  Normally, the seroquel the phsychiatrist gave to me, puts me to sleep.  BUT, not last night.  At 10:00 p.m., I was jittering, sweaty, out of sorts, bug-eyed and unable to stop bouncing my legs (if you know what I mean).  I just couldn't go to sleep.  So, I asked my husband, which I hated to do, to give me .5, to see if if would help.  In case you don't know or remember, I'm the one whose husband dispenses the medicine during this withdrawal process along with getting the medicine from the Dr. every other day since my husband couldn't say no when I asked for more pills.

Anyway, I think it was 5 minutes, no more and I was asleep.  Coincidental, I don't know?!  But, it is strange that yesterday was so bad when I've been tapering for weeks and ............. anyway, I'm just frustrated, tired and I hurt everywhere this a.m.  

Could it be that I'm getting closer to getting off of these things and it's getting worse for me physically?  Part of me really wants to just check in the hospital and get it over with.  I'm sick of this.  These are 10mg./500 mg tylenol tabs, by the way.  I didn't know if I mentioned that at the beginning of all these comments.

Any thoughts?  Was it just a bad night, maybe?  I can't take klonidine.  It makes me feel crazy.  I've started Thomas's regimen with the L-Throsine, Vit. B pills and I'm already on xanax and klonopin. Could that be the problem?  After such a rough night, I'm just desperate for any thoughts.  

Thanks.

whitedove
Pam

[cindi]

ok,  4 in the morning?  2 later and 2 later on?  did you ever think of switching the tapering dose?  I did it once in a way that when I felt the symptoms coming on I would take just enough to take the edge off and I used something else...This when on for about a week and I was fine...maybe take 2 first thing in the morning, 2, 4 hours later, another 2 4 hours after that and 2 at bedtime....then,  do that for 3 days then drop it by .5 mg take 2 in the morning, 2 later 1 1/2 later and so on but always start out with 2 and 2 before bed?  am I making sense? this way you won't load up on it in the daytime and it may be out of your system come nighttime....I know the boucing leg thing....all to often I have had that....i even suffer from it when I was not going through withdrawals...It's called Restless Leg Syndrome....and Spook told me that taking an opiate usually hydrocodone will curb the symptoms...my sisters, my aunt and my cousins even suffer from it and it can be hereditary....but in your case I'd venture to say it was the withdrawals....unless your doc has indicated to you how he wants you to taper maybe try a different schedule....this way you can suffer the worst part of the cut in doseage in the daytime when you are not trying to sleep......good luck   love to all  cin

[Wizard]

I'm with Cin on the timing Pam. I think by nightfall your body is craving the opiates. When I was detoxing I shook like crazy too. Legs and hands. I'd try not load up all day and then none at night. Try to spread it out to take off the edge. Any way you do it it's not gonna be easy but when you finally get it ALL out of your system and if you can Keep the "Dragon" at bay. The sunshine and rainbows are WONDERFUL! I know you can do this.  We all know you can do this. We are here for you to lean on. I'll keep you in my prayers and may God Bless you and your family though these rough times. The light IS at the end of the tunnel.
Reach for girl. :-)
Peace be with you,
Power & magick 2U,
Wizard

[whitedove]

Wizard and Cindi:

Thank you for your comments so quickly.  I just read them after making numerous phone calls to my insurance company, a hospital where I would detox, etc. I am SICK and TIRED of being SICK and TIRED.  AND, you are right about spreading out the dosage.  There is not doubt, that is correct.  Being an addict is what makes me crave that large dosage in the a.m.  It really is awful.

After numerous phone calls now, I'm anticipating that I can't do this on my own.  I'm flat out exhausted and feel BEAT UP!!  You know, I feel like you guys must have strength beyond mine.  I pray and I talk with other AA/NA people and friends but, I can't lick this one.  My psychistrist is too closed minded now and my husband is too frustrated that, I really feel the best way to move ahead is to be admitted, become clean, once and for all.  AND pray, never to relapse again.  I want off these pills.  I don't want the xanax, klonopin, ritalin, and any of these other psychotic drugs I've been given and perhaps, even been liberally given too much by a well-intending psychiatrist.

Because I have an HMO (Coventry - used to be Kaiser), I have to jump through hoops, that people with better insurance may not, but I'm desperate enough to do that so, I'm going to have my husband take me to the ER this evening late (per the advice of the detox unit). This is because their detox psychiatrist, that has a speciality in opiate withdrawing, begins his shift at 12:00 a.m.  It's either go in late tonight and they see me at "what I call my worst", or I get up and drive myself, after a dose of medication, but I still would have the drugs in an UA so ......  The detox unit said, it really didn't matter because a board has to evaluate whether or not, insurance will pay for this.  You know, this really sucks when you pay $720 a month for insurance and you can't even get an answer.  They won't actually give an answer for 2 days.  How ridiculous.  It's almost like, if you take more drugs than what I do, you're more likely to be admitted and approved by insurance.  Now, how stupid is that!!??

I'm so confused.  I haven't talked to my kids.  They've noticed my changes of behavior and haven't said anything to me but, my oldest (at home - 12 yrs. old) has noticed and asked -Daddy, "What's wrong with Mommy?"

So, here I go again, in the hospital, through the ER, and we'll see.  Pray for me please.  I really wanted to try to do this on my own but, it's been too grueling AND I've lost my strength and capabilities of being a good parent.

If you don't hear from me again for a week or so, know that the prayers worked, I'm admitted and "getting clean".  They mentioned a 2 day inpatient stay and an intense outpt. treatment program after that, if everything (once again) is approved.  Maybe, they'll have capabilities to access a computer, in which case, I'll write you all.  See, I'm thinking positive.  This is going to work.  

I envy you all that have done it without hospital help.  AND, I thank you again for all your support.  I may talk to you sooner, than later.  We'll see what happens.

Fondly,

whitedove
***@****

[cindi]

You go girl,,,no one here has any more strength or courage than the next....It is the willingness to get clean and stay clean  one day at a time....and of course my famous line,,one minute at a time and, if need be....one second at a time....whatever it takes to make it happen....you will be ok....stay close to your faith and your higher power,,,and remember,,,,,I love you,,,we all love you,,,and when you get out we are still here to help you every step of the way.....lean on me, when you need a friend , we all need somebody to lean on....remember that one? just do it....we'll be here and until then we will be thinking of you and praying for you.....Godspeed my freind.....Love cin

[whitedove]

Cindi:

Thank you so much for your quick response.  Would you believe I'm still wrestling with the insurance issue?  I'm awaiting a call from the therapist on the Addiction Recovery Unit now.  She thinks they don't have a psychiatrist on call until tommorrow a.m. so, she's checking another hospital.  I really don't want to go to another hospital but if I can go earlier, the earlier the better, I guess.  Why wait?

My sponsor thinks I need to "white knuckle" it a little more.  I don't know.  Maybe that's true.  Perhaps, the real affects of having such a a lower dosage have really hit. What do you think?

I'll let you know more soon because I expect to hear within the 1/2 hour.  Thanks again.

whitedove
Pam

[cindi]

You do whatever makes you more comfortable,,,if you are tired of the tapering and want to get through this then do the detox inpatient.....if you feel you can handle it then continue the taper routine but change the dose schedule....either way, the decision must be yours,  not your sponsors,,No offense to her but,,,she would do what is more comfortable for her...she is there for suggestions, advice...these decisions re: your treatment should and can be up to you...(my opinion only)  either way we are here for you  you have my e-mail addy,,and you have us, on the forum,,,,keep me posted   Love to all   cin

[Wizard]

As Cin said: Godspeed to you Whitedove. I will pray very hard for you. This is the first step of the rest of your life. We WILL be here waiting for you and rooting for you. You have a big corner here with us all in it on your side. God Bless You and your family.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace  and Light on us al,
Love Wizard

[whitedove]

Well, I went into the hospital for 2 days and they discharged me with the same medication, saying they could not withdraw me safely.  They felt that my existing psychiatrist was doing it a very safe and effective way, even thought it many take months.

OH MY GOD!!!  I could not believe it.  The hospital was horrible, the news was not what I wanted to hear and then when they called the psychiatrist that had been treating me about my admission, etc., he said he "wanted to wash his hands of me"!!!

Well, through many tears and pleading, he took me back with the same process of tapering down every 3 days.  

I'm onward to an AA meeting which I desperately need with my sponsor, but I'll tell you more tomorrow because what I learned about this drug was absolutely mind-boggling!!!  The Dr. there called it the "Hollywood Drug" and said that it is the absolute, hardest prescription drug to get off of.  He wanted to send me to a pain clinic that would change the opiate based drug and hopefully be able to taper easier and faster.  He said there was just no other way to do it than cold turkey like a lot of you have.  He said I would feel like I was dying and as I awaited them to give me my dosages, many times, I began feeling like that so I got a small taste.

Anyway, I'll write more tomorrow a.m.  Thanks everybody for your thoughts and prayers and I'm right back with you, needing you support.

Talk to you tomorrow.

whitedove
Pam

[jennyfla]

I haven't posted to you previously, but i wanted to lend you a word of support and i hope that things will start to improve for you soon.
Insurance sucks sometimes, but sometimes they pull through for you even though they say they won't.  I entered my husband into an expensive 28-day rehab program, and it cost $17,000.  My insurance said he no longer needed to be there after about 6-8 days into the program.  I pleaded with them and told them that it was a life or death issue with him, and that he had to stay there no matter what.  I set up a payment plan with the rehab, and was all set to pay out of pocket if necessary (payments for the rest of our lives).  Well you know what, after repeated threats from the insurance company, endless letters saying it was necessary, they paid all 80% of it!!!!  I had to lay out the $3,200 upon dropping him off.  I gave them assorted credit cards and ended up maxing them all out!
Good luck, and I hope that there is a reasonable solution out there somewhere for you.  In the mean time, if you can, keep trying to taper.  Maybe give some of that zinc/magnesium a try, what the heck it can't hurt, that's if you can get them down at this point, i know the tummy feels mighty nasty while detoxing.
Hang in there girl, and know that it is so worth it.  The depression will come to a good end down the road not too far ahead.  That is wonderful that you have a supportive husband who is trying to help.
I have a full-blown addictive husband, and i use to numb the pain i feel being with him.  I don't know how i'm going do it, but i'm gonna give them one hell of a fight!
Hang in there, we're all here for you!
Lv Jenny

[cindi]

WOW,  that's bull **** Re; the hospital...I gotta get to work but my thoughts and prayers are with you     Love to all  cin

[whitedove]

Everyone and especially Jenny (today),

The hospital did kick me out and tell me, they could do nothing different for me than the Dr. is already doing, which is slow, slow taper.  I go down .5 every 3 days.  Today, I start 7 pills.  I take 4 xanax also, which my husband gives me. I originally didn't abuse the xanax, because I really used them for panic but, when I started to panic because less of the Lortab, I used more xanax.

Anyway, in summary, the psychiatrist in the hospital said that the only way to safely go off the "Hollywood Drug" (he called it), is to taper like I am or switch to another opiate based drug and withdraw faster.  He followed up by saying, if I had the Hollywood money, I could afford to do the "rapid opiate detox" which I've read about on lne.  It sounds marverlous. Once you're detoxed, six hours later, you start your program of choice, be it NA/AA, website, other support groups (i.e. 12 step), etc.  He tried getting me released to a pain center and they wouldn't do that, so they releasedd me, doing the same frustrating taper method andd no additional support.  The Dr. in the hospital actually thought I would be better on methadone.  He said it was easier to get off of than what I was on.  I can't believe it.  What do you know?  I probably should go back and read the section on methadone.

At this point, I'm having trouble just accepting what the hospital did/didn't do.

I'd have to self refer to a methadone clinic.  AND, I know what you mean about paying what it takes.  This is a relapse for me. As unfortunate as it is, I was better off when they withdrew me from 24 tablets of codeine a day, in the hospital.  I was out 7 days later, no pain, really happy and at peace.  Now, I did end up with an $11,000 bill but, they reduced it, due to the insurance not paying and, I only ended up paying something like $2,000.  I was blessed.  We'll see what happens this time.

I long for the clean and sober feeling with rosy cheeks, etc.  I remember being there before and I'm determined.  So, if I have to take it one day at a time and currently, tapering is the only option I've got, then so be it.  I'm going to do it right, not beg for more, frustrate my husband, etc. etc.  HE NEEDS A BREAK TOO!  I've begun a more intense study of the big book and it's helping (AA book, P. 14, 64 - 66 so far) and I've taking notes, listing my frustrations in writing.  As they say, the program works if you work it!! Right everyone!!?

I'm not as strong as a few of you that have gone cold turkey.  But, as they say, different strokes for different folks.  I have 4 children and must maintain a part time job so, I think this will work.  

Please help pray for me.  Everyone is so helpful on this site.  I feel as though I was led here and it is here that, I start each morning.  

Thanks to everyone!!  AND, I pray that anyone who needs help, uses their chosen "higher power", keeps talking to your higher power, friends, friends on this site, tapers off the meds and follows or at least tries the method Thomas recommends for ENERGY, if nothing else.  My general Dr. thought the method sounded great, but that a good multi-vitamin may have enough of the B6. He suggested to just look at each multi-vitamin formula and see.  That's what I'm trying, because my energy level is zapped, but now that I'm taking less Lortab, I feel less witdrawal symptoms, am sleeping better and having less cravings ,etc.  Perhaps, I'm on way..........one day a time.

With all my thoughts and blessings for everyone,

whitedove
Pam

[cindi]

God bless you hon,   my prayers are with you...I can't believe that about a hospital...never mind   yes I can  i worked in one   I rememeber we had a heroin addict come in one time and he was going to start withdrawals   it was me that INSISTED on giving him methadone..it was like pulling teeth and then they gave him like 10 mgs or something every 4 hours,....what a joke these places are.  I told you about the fibromyalgia,, i am building up a tolerance to the vics and norco.....with my next script i am getting i am going to wean my self off ....I am in alot of pain but i can't keep increasing the doseage.....she may just go ahead and change my meds as it is,,,,I don't know....but i know i can't just quit..my friend's hubby has been on percs for awhile and didn't know if he stopped he would withdrawal  he has never had to take narcs....he was totally miserable...anyway....strength and peace to you     you can do this......read your Big Book,,have faith and this too shall pass.. love to all    cin

[highpockets]

I was diagnosed w/multiple sclerosis in 1991. I began taking four Lorcet daily for leg pain from ms. Before long this increased to four Lorcet Plus daily. Several months later this led to four Lorcet 10/650 daily. Then I began taking extra ones daily and running out early. This led to several days of torture. Eventually my family Dr. increased my dosage to ten Lorcet 10/650 daily to prevent my running out early. In the mean time, this same Dr. began prescribing four Soma and two Elavil 150 tablets daily for me. Then the Lorcet 10/650 tabs worked less and less.  I talked my neuroligist into giving me a script for the Lorcet 10/650 tabs at ten daily after telling him my family Dr. wanted him to start prescribing all of my meds. All the while I was getting scripts from my family Dr. This situation finally led to me being confronted by several of my closest friends about my problem. My wife knew there was a serious problem, but she never knew exactly how much meds I was actually taking. She knew nothing of the double scripts. By April 1998 I was up to twenty Lorcet 10/650 daily, in addition to the Soma and Elavil. On April 8, 1998 I ran out of both Lorcet 10/650 scripts five days before I could get either one refilled. After five days I was too sick to have anything refilled so I did the whole deal cold turkey. I survived by taking an Elavil every time I woke up and trying to stay asleep all of the time. I took Imodium (immodium) tablets for about two months afterwards for the toilet problem that comes w/withdrawal. After three weeks I felt the best I had felt in several years, and I felt even beter in a few more weeks. I learned to live w/my leg pain which is nothing compared to med. problems. My wonderful family and friends stuck with me through it all. Now, it comes up every once in a while in a joke about my not remembering something that happened in '97 or '98 but many people know I had the problem, I faced it, and I WON. I was determined not to have to go in a hospital, which would have meant admitting there was a problem, which I now admit to without hesitation. The point to this is....It Can Be Beaten with determination, lots of love, and GOD.

[whitedove]

Well, today, I'm down to 6.5 tablets of hydrocodone per day (and will do this for 3 days, then drop to 6, etc.) I just dont know when he'll stop them completely and that makes me panic which doesn't help when you have panic disorder; It's still a struggle but if you've read my other messages, you know this is the only way I can do it, at this point.  As I spread my doses apart, my headaches and fibromyalgia really get going but ...........I'm an addict and, I can't keep on like I was going.  So, I want to thank everyone for their continued support because, this is the 1st place I come each and every morning before I begin my day. I am always eager to hear any responses and help where I can.  

THOMAS, I have a question about the L-Tyrosine.  Does it upset your stomach at 1st?  I find that I'm getting real stomaches with it.  OR, maybe it's just coincidental.  I don't know.  Anyway, just wanted your thoughts.

I see my psychiatrist in 1/2 hr. He was the one that was about to let me go cold turkey, when he found out I went to the hospital.  I need to smooth things over, even though I feel he's wrong.  Every pt. is entitled to a 2nd opinion.  I believe he is just very frustrated with me and I can surely understand that.  But anyway, think good thoughts for me.  I do so want off this medication from "hell".  After that, I'll have to find a way to deal with the pain in a non-narcotic way and maybe a different psychiatrist too.  As painful as it can be sometimes, that's all an addict can do.  I now know that.

Thanks everybody.

whitedove
Pam

[whitedove]

Thomas,

Please read the previous message I wrote that included your name.  I really want to take the L-Tyrosine but, I'm confused if the stomachache is from it or the withdrawals (or both, probably) - just wondered if you had any experience.  Thanks.
Also, did you find that drinking a lot of water helped you?

whitedove
Pam

[cindi]

Hi Pam,, I have been thinking alot about you,   the tyrosine never caused me to get an upset stomach and I think it was thomas or spook said it should not cause nausea....but truly, anything can mess with your stomach...I am glad you are doing ok and still with us...like I said in the post above somewhere....someday we will all be ok...one day at a time....Love ya   cin

[Pillpoppa]

Hi Goldfish - you will not come right until you replace all the zinc/mag you have leached out of your body over the past few years - this is what 'hanging out' really is - it's your body craving zinc/mag (zinc stops cravings/magnesium stops depression). If you don't do this it will take up to 2 years to return to normal as the only other source your body has for zinc/mag is food and then it is in such tiny amounts it takes years to build up again. If you get a blood test done you will find your levels of both are way down on what they should be.


A typical tablet contains somthing like this:

Zinc amino acid chelate 75mg
Magnesium amino acis chelate 37.5mg
Vitamin B6 10mg
Manganese amino acid chelate 10mg
Viatmin A (1000I.U.) 300mcg

Grading your habit on a scale of 1-10 (1 being occasional use and 10 being long term methadone at 100 plus mg's a day) you should take the following amount for a period of one month then slowly reduce to a daily amount of 2-3 per day.

Habit scale/size - Number of tablets per day for a month

10 10
9 9
8 8
7 7
6 6
5 5
4 4
3 3
2 3
1 2
0 2

You will notice that I recommend you never go below 2 per day. This is because zinc/mag depletion was your original problem so you should give yourself an ongoing supplement to make sure it does not happen again. I now take 2-3 per day to maintain my health. I have had no failures with this treatment (everyone OK after less than a month) and have treated addictions (including my own) as varied as methadone and cigarettes. The cigarrete smoker reduced from 2 packs per day to just 5 cigarettes per day in a week without any discomfort. If you suffer any kind of 'hang out' just increase the zinc/mag dosage and give it a liitle longer to take effect (a week or so). Don't beleive all the bullshit about drug addiction you have heard - it's all **** - this is the real deal. The drugs themselves are not actually addictive but they do leach all the zinc/mag out of your body by increasing the metabolism of them creating a shortage that gets worse the longer you use unless you replace them while you are using in which case you don't hang out when you stop - you just come straight - this is true beleive me I have tried it as have a few other people I know and none of us sufferred any hang out when we stopped.

[Moo]

I stumbled on this site this evening while looking for what the symptoms for withdrawing from hydrocodone would be. When I wasn't having migraines, I found I rather enjoyed the buzz from hydro. Long story short, I couldn't imagine going thru my extremely boring existence without it(strictly for the pleasureable feelings it gave). My life basically consists of getting up, going to work, coming home and taking care of my four legged kids(the two legged ones are on their own now), going to bed and repeating this over and over. But anyway, I envy some of you in that you have a partner or at least someone to help you get thru this. On the other hand, my story sounds like one big whine compared to others that have posted. I enjoy the hydro WAY TOO MUCH and now its controlling me and it's scaring the **** out of me. My psychiatrist has me weaning off and has already told me he thinks I should go into the hospital. It's out of the question. I live alone and I have to go to work to pay the bills. I hope that I can pull this off. I just wish I had support. My kids don't know about it and besides, they live in other states. I am just so scared that I can't do it alone. Its not the physical aspect, its the pyschological part that terrifies me. I congratulate all of you who have quit and those of you who are making progress toward quitting. Especially you, Thomas. Comparitively speaking, mine should be a piece of cake, but I am SO SCARED that I can't do it.
Thanks for listening.

[Milo]

Welcome...you'll find plenty of great information on handling tapering & withdrawal from folks here who have done it successfully, with lots of helpful ideas for making the experience as tolerable as possible. They know far more than I do about opiate w/d, but I add my two cents here because like you I live alone, and I know that in itself can add to the challenges you face. So if you need a cyber-ear, I'm here. -- Milo

[Moo]

Bless your little heart for responding to my post. Isn't it amazing how something as simple as responding to someone (even someone you don't know) can help them to feel that they really aren't alone. Sending big smiles your way. Thank you.

[cindi]

Hi Moo,   I know what you mean about the hydros.....you want to get off...Thomas has the Withdrawal from hydros recipe..have you ever considered what to do after you are off the pills?  like a 12 step program of some sort?  anyway,,,,we are all here for you...please,  take what you read here and run with it...this is the best little forum in town....and we are all here to help each other   Luck and love to you      cindi

[Moo]

Yes, I did see the recipe. Thomas seems like a really cool person. Love his attitude! I wondered about the "next step". In the initial phase of seeing that you really are going to make it out alive -- you're all gung ho and you just know that you'll never have to go thru that again. What's really hard is afterwards. THE LONG HAUL. Staying away. For me, I think that's even scarier and I really think that that is where you must have a good safety net.Thank you for your comments, and I just want to say that everybody here seems like they are very caring. It seems like even though we're all going thru the same bad stuff, there is a positive on the other side AND that underneath it all, I think, that we are all stronger than we give ourselves credit for being. Take care.

[Allan, Gordie]

Ive been hooked on Norco for 3 years now its been really bad this past year  20 or more a day for over a year.I lost my scripts and only now realize how bad I am addicted to these pills.Ive been doing well tappering 4 a day for a week.But I know this wont last forever and it will gradually go back up.I dont want to do methadone b/c to me no offense to anyone its the same thing(eventually you'll w/d from that too).So does anyone know of something to get you off pills w/o having to use opiates I think actually I know Ive been taking them to long and my w/d is brutal and I have a family to support I cant afford to be sick for days probably even weeks and when Im sick Im pretty much worthless.So please if any1 knows how to help I would really appreciate it. I need my life back !!