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Opiate withdrawal and switching addictions
I think we all agree that opiate withdrawal is one of the most deblitating physical/mental processes, an inevitable readjustment that can (uh, and probably WILL) fill your life with unfathomable anguish and depression and misery. But, like everyone says, it goes away. Slowly but surely, you'll start to feel better-- maybe only a tiny bit each day, but then suddenly, maybe on day 12, maybe on day 5, maybe day 30, you'll look up at the sunshine-- the literal sunshine-- and you'll suddenly realize that this moment, this precise point in the present, is perfect. And for as long as that lasts, you'll remember what it's like to be "normal."
Now the problem is, for a long time, those moments are few and far between. And it's the unavoidable return of the "sads" or that feeling of hopelessness or lethargy or whatever you want to call it. For a while after you quit... that's just the way it is.
That's a pretty verbose and uneconomical preamble to build a foundation for my argument: during those times after the immediate detox is over, I think it's more than fine to switch one addiction for another.
Benzos help you sleep? Take em.
Methylphenidate gives you energy and a quick burst of happiness? Take em.
Immodium stop the runs? Take em.
Mirapex help the crazy legs? Take em.
Yes, these drugs are ALSO addictive substances and YES you won't feel amazing when you stop taking them. But quitting Ritalin or Zoloft or Clonazepam will be a cakewalk after you've been through opiate detox-- not only physically, but mentally, because you'll have the knowledge that OH MAN YOU GUYS I TOTALLY STOPPED USING OPIATES SO THERE'S NOTHING I CAN'T DO!
That knowledge, that one-hundred percent certainty that you've been through dante's abyss and lived to tell the tale, although at times may seem embarrassing or stupid or something you should be ashamed of...
...It's the most powerful thing in the world. The only people out there who truly know how hard it is are other people who've done it. Other people who've quit. I guess that's the appeal of AA/NA, although personally I'm not a fan of the black-and-white thinking and the permanent "addict" labeling that goes on (I prefer a more cognitive-theraputic approach that empowers you to change your thinking, but there's enough material there for another post haha).
TL;DR: I think taking other drugs during the months after opiate detox is a great idea, provided your eyes are open to the pros and cons of such a thing.
But I'm curious; what do you all think? One school of thought is "We're addicts, we can't be trusted with anything." But I tend to believe that, at least chemically, there's a huge different between opiates and every other addictive substance. It's impossible not to like opiates when they act on the part of your brain that "makes you like stuff," haha. Wheras stimulants and GABA-quietdown-drugs and 5-HT drugs, well, they don't throw your body off a metaphorical Chrysler building when you stop taking them, so I say if helps you deal with the hardest thing you'll ever do in your entire life... do it!
Thoughts?
Now the problem is, for a long time, those moments are few and far between. And it's the unavoidable return of the "sads" or that feeling of hopelessness or lethargy or whatever you want to call it. For a while after you quit... that's just the way it is.
That's a pretty verbose and uneconomical preamble to build a foundation for my argument: during those times after the immediate detox is over, I think it's more than fine to switch one addiction for another.
Benzos help you sleep? Take em.
Methylphenidate gives you energy and a quick burst of happiness? Take em.
Immodium stop the runs? Take em.
Mirapex help the crazy legs? Take em.
Yes, these drugs are ALSO addictive substances and YES you won't feel amazing when you stop taking them. But quitting Ritalin or Zoloft or Clonazepam will be a cakewalk after you've been through opiate detox-- not only physically, but mentally, because you'll have the knowledge that OH MAN YOU GUYS I TOTALLY STOPPED USING OPIATES SO THERE'S NOTHING I CAN'T DO!
That knowledge, that one-hundred percent certainty that you've been through dante's abyss and lived to tell the tale, although at times may seem embarrassing or stupid or something you should be ashamed of...
...It's the most powerful thing in the world. The only people out there who truly know how hard it is are other people who've done it. Other people who've quit. I guess that's the appeal of AA/NA, although personally I'm not a fan of the black-and-white thinking and the permanent "addict" labeling that goes on (I prefer a more cognitive-theraputic approach that empowers you to change your thinking, but there's enough material there for another post haha).
TL;DR: I think taking other drugs during the months after opiate detox is a great idea, provided your eyes are open to the pros and cons of such a thing.
But I'm curious; what do you all think? One school of thought is "We're addicts, we can't be trusted with anything." But I tend to believe that, at least chemically, there's a huge different between opiates and every other addictive substance. It's impossible not to like opiates when they act on the part of your brain that "makes you like stuff," haha. Wheras stimulants and GABA-quietdown-drugs and 5-HT drugs, well, they don't throw your body off a metaphorical Chrysler building when you stop taking them, so I say if helps you deal with the hardest thing you'll ever do in your entire life... do it!
Thoughts?
OP Here:
First, I'm so amazed, impressed, and encouraged by all of your responses! Every single one of you had similar points of view, and yet you were all kind and wise enough to make me feel like "hey, go try it out, but I doubt it will work." I didn't feel any judgement or "U IDIOT SO DUMBBB" (Which sadly is the standard vernacular on the internet).
"Pull up a chair folks, we got a real addict talking" really sticks with me. Even though it's only been what-- two days since I posted this?-- I'm already running wild with methylphenidate (Ritalin). Like.... um.... wild. So, yeah. It's not about "just getting enough energy to get through the day."
You guys are 100 percent right. It's more that I'm chasing the opiate high I miss. Does this mean when I stop taking Ritalin in a few days that I'm going to be craving opiates again? I think the vegas money is on YES. Hmmmm.
So... yep. An addict was talking. Thanks for calling ******** in such polite and varied ways (I'm being sincere, please don't confuse this with sarcasm).
But I'd like to talk about NA and the term "addict" for a moment. Obviously I have something in common with a lot of you-- the desire to take opiates (or whatever you please), and this desire trumps almost everything else. And this is the very definition of an addict, to be sure.
But looking at the label "addict" from a cognitive-therapy standpoint... it's completely counterproductive. It discounts all the times in your life when you WEREN'T acting like a jackass (28 years in my case!). And I think it makes you define your life as a victim, rather than seeing that your future is unknown! Maybe you'll do drugs again, maybe you won't... but all you can do it try not to.
In other words, it's bad enough that we've all screwed up. But do we really need to double our trouble by beating ourselves up every day for it?
NA people-- I'd love your thoughts on this. Because maybe I'm misunderstanding? Is there a feeling of peace that comes from the program, and the word "addict" isn't a BAD label after you own it? What do you all think?
First, I'm so amazed, impressed, and encouraged by all of your responses! Every single one of you had similar points of view, and yet you were all kind and wise enough to make me feel like "hey, go try it out, but I doubt it will work." I didn't feel any judgement or "U IDIOT SO DUMBBB" (Which sadly is the standard vernacular on the internet).
"Pull up a chair folks, we got a real addict talking" really sticks with me. Even though it's only been what-- two days since I posted this?-- I'm already running wild with methylphenidate (Ritalin). Like.... um.... wild. So, yeah. It's not about "just getting enough energy to get through the day."
You guys are 100 percent right. It's more that I'm chasing the opiate high I miss. Does this mean when I stop taking Ritalin in a few days that I'm going to be craving opiates again? I think the vegas money is on YES. Hmmmm.
So... yep. An addict was talking. Thanks for calling ******** in such polite and varied ways (I'm being sincere, please don't confuse this with sarcasm).
But I'd like to talk about NA and the term "addict" for a moment. Obviously I have something in common with a lot of you-- the desire to take opiates (or whatever you please), and this desire trumps almost everything else. And this is the very definition of an addict, to be sure.
But looking at the label "addict" from a cognitive-therapy standpoint... it's completely counterproductive. It discounts all the times in your life when you WEREN'T acting like a jackass (28 years in my case!). And I think it makes you define your life as a victim, rather than seeing that your future is unknown! Maybe you'll do drugs again, maybe you won't... but all you can do it try not to.
In other words, it's bad enough that we've all screwed up. But do we really need to double our trouble by beating ourselves up every day for it?
NA people-- I'd love your thoughts on this. Because maybe I'm misunderstanding? Is there a feeling of peace that comes from the program, and the word "addict" isn't a BAD label after you own it? What do you all think?
I have no problem with an addict using "comfort meds" to get through the hell of detox - with one caveat: that the dosing schedule and amount be controlled by someone else. My husband nearly killed himself self-medicating during Sub withdrawal. He mixed dalmane, flexeril, clonidine, clonopin and mass quantities of alcohol in a vain attempt to sleep through detox. As another member mentioned, it was the old "pop a pill for every ill" behavior that got him into trouble.
My husband dragged me into the 9th circle of hell right along with him. Now he's moving along rebuilding his life but I'm still stuck in the past dealing with the trauma of his addiction and the damage it's done to every aspect of our lives. Yeah, I have a whole lot of anger and I don't trust his recovery. I'm always waiting for the shoe to drop, which it still does on occasion where alcohol is concerned. I see the same pill popping behavior going on all these months later. Big deal that they aren't controlled substances. There's a pill for every ill and he's the poster child for Better Living through Pharmaceuticals.
My husband dragged me into the 9th circle of hell right along with him. Now he's moving along rebuilding his life but I'm still stuck in the past dealing with the trauma of his addiction and the damage it's done to every aspect of our lives. Yeah, I have a whole lot of anger and I don't trust his recovery. I'm always waiting for the shoe to drop, which it still does on occasion where alcohol is concerned. I see the same pill popping behavior going on all these months later. Big deal that they aren't controlled substances. There's a pill for every ill and he's the poster child for Better Living through Pharmaceuticals.
When I read your epistle,I had but one thought: Pull up a chair folks...we've got us a real addict talking!
i was thinking that. but i have been bashed so much and called mean, not compassionate and hurtful i dont comment in the forum much anymore.
Be Blessed Vicki
i was thinking that. but i have been bashed so much and called mean, not compassionate and hurtful i dont comment in the forum much anymore.
Be Blessed Vicki
0-o
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Another tongue twister might be better to come up with, keeping things on the mind makes cravings stronger, trust me, it's how I started smoking again.
It's interesting, your not a geek, you are a goofus, but you come up with cool tongue twisters.
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Another tongue twister might be better to come up with, keeping things on the mind makes cravings stronger, trust me, it's how I started smoking again.
It's interesting, your not a geek, you are a goofus, but you come up with cool tongue twisters.
Hey I got so carried away earlier I made up another tongue twister while driving down the road. It relates to addiction.
The addicted pill popper places pill popping priority #1.
The detoxing pill popper pops pills prolonging pill popping's poisonous patterns.
The recovering pill popper passionately pursues peace.
The recovered pill popper positively practices perserverance.
Just realized I might be a geek lol. Anyhow, I thought some might find it interesting.
The addicted pill popper places pill popping priority #1.
The detoxing pill popper pops pills prolonging pill popping's poisonous patterns.
The recovering pill popper passionately pursues peace.
The recovered pill popper positively practices perserverance.
Just realized I might be a geek lol. Anyhow, I thought some might find it interesting.
An addict is an addict you may prefer one substance but if you takeaway that substance and replace it with another addictive substance chances are you will just cross addict ,Its the cycle of addiction and the reason I would not sugest replacing one pill with another took me years to learn that.dont not waste years find a good recovery program get off everything good luck I hope everything works out well for you.
HI ......as addicts we are always looking for the quick fix witch is often another pill to our addictive nature.....one of the biggest problems we see on this forum is people getting addicted to sleep meds....weather it be benzo's or the Z meds both are hard and painfull to get off of...some use adderill for an energy boost.....what do you do when it quits working
some smoke pot or drink to take the edge off a ruff day.....all I can say is cross addiction is possible and probable and usually leads back to our DOC it just a mater of time im old scholl on this on a buzz is a buzz is a buzz no mater how suttle it may seam and none of this is heathy for the addict....this forum has proven me right far to many times....its sad...clean is clean
and learning to cope without pills is possible your walking on thin ice thinking otherwise
......Gnarly
some smoke pot or drink to take the edge off a ruff day.....all I can say is cross addiction is possible and probable and usually leads back to our DOC it just a mater of time im old scholl on this on a buzz is a buzz is a buzz no mater how suttle it may seam and none of this is heathy for the addict....this forum has proven me right far to many times....its sad...clean is clean
and learning to cope without pills is possible your walking on thin ice thinking otherwise
......Gnarly
There are surely other drugs that are horrible to withdraw from. I was addicted to barbiturates and withdrawing from those was like stepping into the tenth circle of hell (speaking of Dante ).
So,following your logic,if I took an opiate to get through the barb withdrawal,that would be okay? Good? Pleasant? Just what the doctor ordered? No. I think not.
Benzo withdrawal is also a bear. So is Ritalin withdrawal. Knowing it can be done is of little consolation when you're going through it.
When I read your epistle,I had but one thought: Pull up a chair folks...we've got us a real addict talking!
I truly hope no one on the forum takes your theory to heart.
So,following your logic,if I took an opiate to get through the barb withdrawal,that would be okay? Good? Pleasant? Just what the doctor ordered? No. I think not.
Benzo withdrawal is also a bear. So is Ritalin withdrawal. Knowing it can be done is of little consolation when you're going through it.
When I read your epistle,I had but one thought: Pull up a chair folks...we've got us a real addict talking!
I truly hope no one on the forum takes your theory to heart.
I used a specific drug to help and basically eliminate my opiate withdrawals once, I took it for five days and then stopped taking it.
However, if there is a chance to become addicted to something for whatever reason, it's better not to tempt it.
However, if there is a chance to become addicted to something for whatever reason, it's better not to tempt it.
I compleatly agree with you.
I don't label myself an addict, if I am not using. To me, the only differance between people who are addcits and people who never were addicts is the people who never were addicts never got a taste of their poison.
Every person is a potential addict so if I am not using, I am not an addict.
I don't like limiting myself and taking power away from myself. Other than that, I say regardless if it's N/A, A/A or just a local church group, if it works for the person, it works.
I don't label myself an addict, if I am not using. To me, the only differance between people who are addcits and people who never were addicts is the people who never were addicts never got a taste of their poison.
Every person is a potential addict so if I am not using, I am not an addict.
I don't like limiting myself and taking power away from myself. Other than that, I say regardless if it's N/A, A/A or just a local church group, if it works for the person, it works.
Me think it is a pretty crazy idea u got there! No seriously, as far as i know and based on personal experience myself, taking psychostimulants or benzos (which as u say do have a potential for abuse) while quitting opiate addiction (like shooting up heroin in my case) can be like holding a hand grenade ready to explode at any time: a disaster.
Not saying it is impossible, we are all different and not the same approach or therapy can work for all of us. My main complaint about AA or NA and similar programs is just that: their conviction that all addicts are the same and there is only one way to sobriety. Well, i think that after years of research on the subject, too many failed programs and a worldwide epidemy that does not seem to want to vanish... It is about time to think new strategies and i am very glad to see that it is actually happening, slowly but surely. The question of addiction and how to treat it so complex, anyone who is still convinced that there is only one way is well... Not too... Ok u got it
But going back to ur theory, i think it is dangerous: and i say thay because i tried it and i ****** up... Big time. I even had this same thinking process: i quit shooting up heroin, went to hell and back: not possible that i fall in the trap again. Few years later, completely obsessed with adderall which i initially took for my ADD (equivalent to ritalin maybe stronger but i bet you it could have been ritalin and i would have neen in the exact same mess i found myself), i realized that contrary to what i thought, i had fallen into the trap again and this time again, it was no cakewalk! Different but no cakewalk, different but not easier!
I think that the hardcore approach still in use in some places: going cold turkey, they lock u up in a room, and it is hell hell hell... Until well the physical symptoms of withdrawal are gone is not for everyone. I am not for it actually. Twenty years ago in France, i went to the patriarche a rehab center that was adamant about the idea that cold turkey was the only way, only herbal teas, massages and very very long walks all day and if necessary, in the middle of the night, for the first few days (the intensity of withdrawal symptpms depending on the intensoty of the abuse)
trust me, it was not a pretty sight... The sad part is that its success rate was pretty low. As long as the kids were at the patriarche, they were fine but Most who had gone back into the real world also went back to their old habits. Today, more and more rehabs rely on the use of sedatives and other controlled substances to alleviate these symptoms but their administration is supervised by neuro specialists and other med personel. And they are prescribed for as long as the physical symptoms persist.
Again, what doesnt work for me may work for u. All i can say is that from where i stand, this could be like playing with fire, u think u got it under control when in fact... Pretty sneaky thing
Anyway better stop. Thanks for the onteresting question... There is so much to be said,
Well take good care of urself
Nikita
Not saying it is impossible, we are all different and not the same approach or therapy can work for all of us. My main complaint about AA or NA and similar programs is just that: their conviction that all addicts are the same and there is only one way to sobriety. Well, i think that after years of research on the subject, too many failed programs and a worldwide epidemy that does not seem to want to vanish... It is about time to think new strategies and i am very glad to see that it is actually happening, slowly but surely. The question of addiction and how to treat it so complex, anyone who is still convinced that there is only one way is well... Not too... Ok u got it
But going back to ur theory, i think it is dangerous: and i say thay because i tried it and i ****** up... Big time. I even had this same thinking process: i quit shooting up heroin, went to hell and back: not possible that i fall in the trap again. Few years later, completely obsessed with adderall which i initially took for my ADD (equivalent to ritalin maybe stronger but i bet you it could have been ritalin and i would have neen in the exact same mess i found myself), i realized that contrary to what i thought, i had fallen into the trap again and this time again, it was no cakewalk! Different but no cakewalk, different but not easier!
I think that the hardcore approach still in use in some places: going cold turkey, they lock u up in a room, and it is hell hell hell... Until well the physical symptoms of withdrawal are gone is not for everyone. I am not for it actually. Twenty years ago in France, i went to the patriarche a rehab center that was adamant about the idea that cold turkey was the only way, only herbal teas, massages and very very long walks all day and if necessary, in the middle of the night, for the first few days (the intensity of withdrawal symptpms depending on the intensoty of the abuse)
trust me, it was not a pretty sight... The sad part is that its success rate was pretty low. As long as the kids were at the patriarche, they were fine but Most who had gone back into the real world also went back to their old habits. Today, more and more rehabs rely on the use of sedatives and other controlled substances to alleviate these symptoms but their administration is supervised by neuro specialists and other med personel. And they are prescribed for as long as the physical symptoms persist.
Again, what doesnt work for me may work for u. All i can say is that from where i stand, this could be like playing with fire, u think u got it under control when in fact... Pretty sneaky thing
Anyway better stop. Thanks for the onteresting question... There is so much to be said,
Well take good care of urself
Nikita
Interesting theory. In this pharmaceutical age we live in, where every other commercial entices you to take a pill for this a pill for that, want better sex take a pill, your tummy hurts, take a pill, your wife won't stop nagging you, take 4 pills. For most opiate addicts, the pills rule every aspect of our lives. When we run out early or can't afford to buy any, what do we do? We scrounge through the medicine cabinet, check all our hiding spots, or research different prescriptions we've found or been newly prescribed on the internet in hopes that it will make us feel good. I personally believe that if complete sobriety is the goal, any mind-altering substances have to go. I'm not against beneficial medicines, when needed, but relying on them only lengthens the cravings and obsession for more pills. Think about it, pill poppers pop pills. Pill poppers in withdrawal pop pills to feel better, but pill popper only thinks about popping more pills because he is constantly popping other pills to free him from his pill popping addiction. By completely stopping the pill-popping ( lol I know I've gone over board with the pill popping tongue-twister), a certain behaviour modification takes place.
That leads to what I think is the key. By changing our behaviours, we break the chains that are addiction. I agree with AA/Na being too black and white. I used it as a tool to aid in changing my behaviours. We tend to overthink things when it comes to why we're addicted and what helps and what doesn't help, and AA/NA teaches a simple method of staying sober.
Cross-addiction happens all too often to people and that's why I'm against using anything mind-altering to get me through. I have switched many times and it all leads back to the same thing- another addiction. If you can put it down, more power to you. As a recovering addict though, it would be insane to put yourself in that situation.
One other note, benzos are notoriously bad when it comes to detoxing even more than opiates. Seizures have happened to many who have suddenly stopped. I know you were talking about just taking it for a short period, but the potential for cross-addiction is high in early recovery.
That leads to what I think is the key. By changing our behaviours, we break the chains that are addiction. I agree with AA/Na being too black and white. I used it as a tool to aid in changing my behaviours. We tend to overthink things when it comes to why we're addicted and what helps and what doesn't help, and AA/NA teaches a simple method of staying sober.
Cross-addiction happens all too often to people and that's why I'm against using anything mind-altering to get me through. I have switched many times and it all leads back to the same thing- another addiction. If you can put it down, more power to you. As a recovering addict though, it would be insane to put yourself in that situation.
One other note, benzos are notoriously bad when it comes to detoxing even more than opiates. Seizures have happened to many who have suddenly stopped. I know you were talking about just taking it for a short period, but the potential for cross-addiction is high in early recovery.
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