Opiates present in human milk?

[Beth]

Is there anyone who knows ANYTHING solid about the presence of opiates in breastmilk? I have been a milk donor for some time (to HIV + babies- human milk is literally the difference between life and death for some of them as opposed to artificial infant formula) but now that I have a constant stream of opiates in my system, is it safe?

I have heard SO many conflicting opinions that I just don't know. So maybe if any of you ladies who have been pregnant/nursing while on opioid meds and have info from your doctors, you can let me know. Right now I just pump & pour it down the sink, but there are so many babies in need out there...if it's safe for me to donate again I would really like to.

[cindi]

as far as I know opiates are excreted in breast milk...it can mae the baby lethargic etc...at least this is what I have been told in nursing school and while I was nursing,my own babies..as a matter of fact I had a very bad c-section with my last baby and I was on some heavy duty meds and for that reason was unable to nurse...,,.cindi

[Beth]

Cindi- OK, so opiates are excreted in breastmilk. Next questions is- since formula is so harmful anyway, is one worse than the other? I know that breastmilk increases antibodies that will give the baby a lower risk of most cancers, obesity, and a higher IQ. So is jeopardizing all that to a baby who is already sick more harmful than a small amount of medicine in his/her system? I have one supposedly "world renowned" doctor telling me that the amount excreted in the milk is so small that it's only a miniscule amount of what the baby would have in his system if her were being perscribed the meds for some condition. Then I have another doctor saying that the amount of opiates in the breastmilk is as high as in my bloodstream. I don't really believe this, since I know a couple of people who have been on serious meds, nursed anyway, and their babies are now fine, bright young children. But I still worry as to what the right descision is....sigh

And here's a question (off topic) for your c-section birth, did they give you pitocin? I am an avid researcher of birth and labor stats and I am noticing that about 80-85% of section births were originally given pitocin. This tells me that pitocin needs to be replaced with good old nature- let the body do the job whe it's ready! As a nurse, I would be interested in your opinion on this subject.

[niccee]

My sister in law just had a baby 2 months ago. She had to have major surgery last week and the doctor told her the pain meds that he was going to give her would be secreted in the breast milk. I am not an expert so I don't know how much would be to much. If you don't mind telling me. What exactly is involved in being a breast milk donor? It sounds like a wonderful thing to do for a sick baby. How generous of you. I hope you don't have to stop.

[cindi]

I really don't think that the amt of opiates in Breast milk is as high as the bloodstream of course it does depend on much you have taken,,therapeutic doses?  I suppose it's 6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other..hmmm I did nurse Jenna for about 4 weeks and I wa taking darvocet and she was fine..my OBGYN said it was ok  not alot was passed through the milk...i don't know what to say now...maybe there is a website you can go and check it out....i can look for you if you want to send me yur email      mine is ***@**** yes, I was given pitocin...both times I was induced..it was horrible..the first time i had a vag delivery the 2 time he was a section    i went home became massively infected,,dehisced,,,the works  i was damn near close to sepsis.....in bed for a month    trips to be packed every other day  the the HH Nurse came and packed me BID...what a mess....needless to say I am done    these loins of mine will spew forth no more life as long as I can help it  plus I am pushing 41....LOL    this would be interesting to persue....good luck and I'll see what i can come up with on my end...can you see the nurse in us????  LOL    Love to all   cin

[susanlea]

I don't mean to bust in on this thread. I had left you a post on June 3rd futher down the lineup. I just wanted to see how you were doing. Monday was 4 years ago my mom died. I thought about you all day, please let me know how your doing......Love Susan

[cindi]

What a DORK I can be sometimes.....I'm sorry  I didn't even see your comment to me....4 years since your mom died,,,I can't even imagine not seeing my mom for 4 years..6 months is hard enough...I have been really having a difficult time the past week  I hired someone to take all her stuff out of the house...except the stuff we are keeping....my sister came up to help me do it and like 2 bigs jerks all we did is walk around the house crying and keeping everything....it did us no good...so today i had to go over and "inspect"  everything which was so difficult...my mom's entire life,,her belongings etc..all gone..my childhood memories gone...everything in a dump...it seems so freakin final..now the headstone...the sooner I get the hell out of Ohio the better off I'll be....how are you doing?  do things really get easier?  please tell me they do,,,please tell me the daily and nightly crying stops...the emptiness goes away   never will her memory fade but it still all seems so new....Thank you for thinking of me...it helps to have friends like yo that care and understand...Love to all     cindi

[Wizard]

Had to break in and say hi to everyone. I just got back from my fly fishing trip and now I think I'm addicted to something else! I haven't had a chance to catch up with everyone yet on what I've missed but I see a few new names on the board with a lot of fantastic advice from all of you special "angels" here. Cin, I couldn't find a phone outlet to write but actually it was good to let the whole world go for a few days. I never even thought of the "Dragon" for the few days I was in the wilderness. I had forgotten how high I could get just being surrounded by all of God's magical creatures and creations. I was truly blessed with a natural euphoria that I won't ever forget!  Well, enough of my good time in Oz, Cin,I want to tell you as time goes on the daily weepy moments do get less and less after your huge loss. You never completely fill the hole in your heart but you do come to terms with it as you let go. One of the hardest things for me was going through my fathers belongings after he passed on. It's funny how you remember some of the bad times and the good times while you do it. Now, all I remember is the GOOD times as it should be because I know he's up there watching over me as is your mother looking over you. Was it Angelica who said "keep your chin up"? Good advice! Even in the woods I thought of all you "angels" here and keep you in my prayers. I hope all is well with you and your family.
Thomas, I thank you for your little post to me below on the 6th.
I can't tell you how much it meant to me to have you say that. I often thought of you and of how you were doing with the benzo thing. I wished you could of been there with me wading in the Pit River looking up at Mt. Shasta as I was hooking monster Rainbow trout! it seemed so symbolic to me being a recovering addict myselfbeing hooked for so long. I took the greater joy of releasing the rainbows back to their river then I did in catching them. You know me being the Wizard and all how I like RAINBOWS LOL. But really it was so nice to release them as I've released myself. They are there for another day and another child to catch and hopefully release again. It truly was better then any opiate I have ever gotten high on! Clear air, clear water and most of all MY CLEAR MIND! I thank all of you for helping me get there. I thank God for leading me to you. God Bless you all you are in my prayers this evening. That includes Angelica,Jay Jay,Shane, Milo, Susanlea,and everyone on this board forgive me if I left your name off but you know you are in my heart!
Power & Magick 2 U all,
Peace & Light of the Lord on us all,
Love,
Wizard

[Milo]

Wizard -- I'm so glad things are going well for you! It sounds like that trip was just what you needed. I don't get out in nature as much as I should. But I love being at a lake with the smell of the woods, the lapping of water against the pier -- pure heaven. I also get a lot spiritually out of walking along a beach, preferably in off-season w/few people around. The sheer majesty of the blue water stretching out endlessly & touching the sky is fantastic! BTW, have you ever read the poem "The Fish" by Elizabeth Bishop. I think you'd *really* enjoy it following your vacation. And, BTW, your story continues to be an inspiration to me, & I'm sure to many others.
Cindi -- I loved your comment about your loins spewing forth no more life! LOL about that quaint phrasing!!
lea -- I wish you peace and serenity in coming to terms with the loss of your mother. We  haven't talked to each other on here much (any?), but my thoughts are with you as you get through this difficult time. --Milo

[cindi]

Hey the wunderful wiz back.....Hey there, you have no idea how much I missed talking to you...Fly fishing huh?  I think I told you I used to love to go bass fishing...haven't done it for awhile..still have all my stuff though and someday I will..( that was when I was dating another guy LOL)   I used to release them as well...Bass tournaments etc.  are a big thing up here and down south...I love being in nature alos...the ocean is my favorite place in the world....it is so majestic, it can be so calming yet become so raging the next minute...and I think Milo describe it as spritual....that is the first place I am going when I get to Florida....Hey can i get to this forum from using my sister's and dad's computer...will I have to register again?   if I have to re-register then I'll get another name and let you know who I am.....as far as my mom goes....I do believe you guys when you say it gets easier....things are easier to deal with when I have you guys....i gotta be in owrk early to open today  talk to you soon       Love to all  cin

[susanlea]

The daily and nightly crying does eventually stop. The old saying time heals all wounds is true. There will come a time when it will nolonger be painful. I'm not saying you'll start forgetting her, but when you think of her, you will be able to smile and laugh because the good times and happy times become so much clearer. I still miss my mom and dad everyday, sometimes you will forget she's gone and pick up the phone to call her, because you want to share something with her. After awhile life goes back to some kind of normalcy. The kids and family, friends and work, will start to take up your time. Life does go on. If someone had told me that in 1988, when my dad died, I would have thought them crazy. One day you will wake up and you will feel her peace. You will feel her telling you it's ok now, start living your own life. Would your mom want you to grieve for her forever? I don't think so. What you have said about your mom tells me she was a wonderful loving mom and woman. She would want good things for you, she would want you to be happy. You and your sister will get through this, once you start packing her things, and letting go of what you nolonger need, you will start to have closure. My exhusband, who is truly a good man, got a puppy after my mom died, He named her Hilda, after my mom. My kids love that dog, he helps keep her memory alive. I told you before, my kids and I send helium balloons up in the sky, to tell her we miss her and love her, it feels good. You will find in your own time, the peace within....take care my friend, I'm thinking of you.....Love Susan

[cindi]

Thank you   I really needed to hear that right now..it's been rough   I have to go now but I will jump on in the morning.....I love you people on this board...........Love cin

[susanlea]

Thank you Milo for your kind thoughts. No we have never had an occassion to talk. My mom died 4 years ago, and I'm ok with her being gone, it took awhile but in time the pain heals. I really feel for Cindi now, the loss of her mom is so new, this past Christmas. I am just now coming to terms with the loss of the man I loved to addiction. Between everyone her on this forum, Al-anon, and Narc-anon, I am now healing from what this disease has done to my family. What's been said here is true. Unless someone has expierenced addiction, they cannot understand. I have learned alot of things, reading, counseling, meetings. But I can only understand from being on the outside. I know from what I've learned, and the other addicts, and loved ones I have met, is......I can't change the person, but I can change my attitude about the addiction. I used to think, like most, that a person addicted to alcohol or drugs, was the vagrant in the gutter. I have learned that it's my next door neighbor, my kids teacher, and the den mother at my son's Cub scout meetings. This is a disease, we cannot judge the addict. They are people just like me. They have families, jobs, homes, and attend Church on Sundays. I now know, no one chooses to have an addiction. Sometimes it will happen to one, but not the next, addiction does not play favorites,  it is color blind, and does not care whether you live in a Mansion or on the street. I have found some of the most caring, compassionate, and loving people I have ever met, right here. The people here are special. I have met friends here, I will like to have in my life forever. Please be patient with me, sometimes I just like to read the posts, everyday it helps me understand why I can't help him. Everyone here has been so kind to me and so helpful. Because you see, they don't judge me....Love Susan

[susanlea]

One more thing. This forum and the people on it have done for me no valium or antidepressent could. They have given me back my sanity. Peace to you all......Love Susan

[Milo]

Lea, I agree 100% about this board -- before I even started posting, I would include the people here in my prayers (as well as everyone struggling with addiction). You're so right about it striking anyone in a seemingly random way. I know most folks here have trouble with opiates. I have gotten high on opiates exactly three times in my life -- the first time I took codeine (wisdom teeth), the first time I took darvocet (ear infection), and the first time I took hydro (cough medicine). After the first time, absolutely no euphoric effect -- just a little drowsiness & some nausea if I moved around too much. Why is this? I don't know, but I truly thank God that these drugs have never appealed to me, because of the stories I have read here about dependence & withdrawal. But it could just as easily have been the other way around.
But -- I can relate to the stories here because Valium & Fioricet serve essentially the same function for me as opiates do for others, I think. My challenge now is to learn how to replace these things with better, healthier alternatives. And it is incredibly helpful for me to be able to talk about this in, as you said, a non-judgmental environment.
On the other side, I have seen two sweet, wonderful friends go through sheer hell because of their spouses' cocaine/crack abuse. So in at least a very small way I can understand what you're going through. If you need a cyber-ear or shoulder, I'm here. Sincerely, Milo

[Leigh]

I was just browsing through the forum and noticed the messages about losing your mom. Although I've been reading posts for quite a while, I don't remember reading about your loss. I am truly sorry to hear about your mom's death.

I lost my mom four months ago. She was only 51 years old when she died. She had been diagnosed 10 months earlier with a fatal disease. Prior to her diagnosis, I had never even considered the possibility that I might lose my mom. I'm not married, no kids yet either--although hopefully someday that will change. But I never imagined that my mom wouldn't be at my wedding, or the birth of my kids, or that she might be someone who my husband and kids would simply know as a photograph...These thoughts were beyond my realm of comprehension.

However, what I learned as I explored all these once foreign and now very real thoughts is that time does help, and the grief will begin to subside in a while. It will never go away--but why should it? Your mom was a very special person and it would be unnatural to not occassionally shed a tear or get a little angry when you want to hear her voice or hold her hand. But eventually, the good memories will start to feel more good than sad, and the grief will give way to appreciation, strength and courage. I don't take anything for granted now, I refuse to allow petty things to upset me, I'm not afraid of hardship--and I sure as hell can handle just about anything. And although I miss my mom more than words could say, I'm very grateful that she is still giving me things, even in death. In other words, she has now given me strength and courage. Somehow, she is still reaching out to me and teaching me lessons on how to cope with life. And how to appreciate things. So maybe, somehow, although it's certainly hard to understand this--maybe we're being blessed. Ya know?

And lest I give the impression that I handled her death in a perfect way, let me tell you: I was less than perfect. A week after she died, I relapsed with my Vicodin. I decided that if life was going to be unfair, then I was going to use some imperfect coping mechanisms--namely, numbing myself with narcotics. The only thing that stopped me was the idea that my mom could look down from above and see me, and if she could see me--well, she was probably utterly pissed off and ashamed of my behavior. And I'm still battling with my addiction. I was sober for almost two months, and last week I relapsed again. It's a horrible feeling, and once again--I'm scheduled to quit this week. The worst part is that I can handle the quitting. It's the relapsing that I'm having trouble with. And although there are some good remedies for quitting and easing the withdrawal, there does not seem to be a plethora of advice as to how to stay clean.

But the one thing that I've learned is that life isn't fair and we're not being singled out for tragedy and challenge. We're not alone. And we can use this hardship to our advantage, to make us stronger and wiser. Right?

[cindi]

I am so very sorry to hear that you have lost your mom also...My God, the pain is unbelievable isn't it?  I, like you had never thought my IMMORTAL, do anything mom would ever go..it was nearly impossible for me to think of yet alone comprehend...my mom was diagnosed a long time ago with emphysema,,,,she struggled alot but won....last year she had a bout of pneumonia that took everything out of her and I basically took care of here the last year,,in between visits to nursing facitlities usually fir a one or 2 month rehabilition stay then to home,,this went on for a year....it took it's toll on her  to make a long story short and to spare everyone the details again,(they have heard it from me over and over again  God love them all) 2 days before christmas (this past christmas) she wound up on a ventilator...christmas eve I was with her,,she had been awak and laert,,,still being my mom,,,she even told me to be quiet I talk too much  (HI WIZ)  i assured her it was ok to get some rest and save her strength for when she is weaned off the vent...she closed her eyes and went into a coma...I kissed her and told her I loved her and left...I had planned on going up in the morning,,,,that evening on christmas eve  a few hours after I got home they called and said she probably would not make it through the nite...i was going to go up and they said no  she is not responding,  she has no idea what is happening,,,stay home add take care of my kids and my 85 year old gramma,,,if she changs they will call me,,throughout the night she remained critical but more stable,,,,I went to call int he morning,,they called me first  she went into what is called VTACH and i left to go up but I was too late...my mom was gone by the time I got there,,,,everyone here on this forum knows how I struggle with not being there...if it wasn't for JB, Wiz, susan, jenny,Thomas, Kerrie and all the rest I think I would have went over the edge from the guilt alone several times....These people here have LITERALLY given be back a sense of serenity....I have found that I am not alone...no matter what  and they have also taught me it is OK to be angry with God,  I thought my faith was gone....but they have taught me that it was only hiding,,shadowed by pain...my mom helped me through my addiction,,not always as understanding as I would have been had it been my kids  (tongue in cheek) LOL  but she was always there for me,,her main fear was that when she died would I be ok.....many times i go to do something  anything she would have not liked and I hear her voice....."CYNTHIA LOUISE".....I have to chuckle   as many times she has been utterly pissed at me....LOL  but we understood each other.....It is still so new for us both..6 months for me and 4 for you...I think this will take a lifetime to get over,,,and it very well may but we have memories...good, bad and indifferent....they were our mom's  no matter what   we are a part of them,,we carry around their spirits in us..in our hearts...and this cannot be taken away from us...I have inherited her Cat,,,a beautiful Himalayan,,,she cherished this cat,,,and being I have a cat already my cat and her's did not get along  it was "iffy"...I did keep her,  I had a "cindi to cat" talk with the both of them and made them behave  ( I can be such a dork  LOL) i swear sometimes buttons senses my mom..it is too weird...We will be fine someday.you and I..I won't push it because our hearts and minds have a way of healing themselves at their own pace....right now i will let the grieving process do what it has to do....Thank you Leigh, for sharing with me...sometimes I need to be reminded that I am not the only one in pain.....if you need to talk you can get me at ***@**** or ***@****        Love to all    cindi

[Wizard]

Hi dear, hope all is well with you today. I was reading some poetry by Connie Hunt when I came upon this and thought of you and your mother and me and my father. Hope this helps. It's called MEMORIES:

Nothing is ever the same
Each encounter is precious, unique.
My heart is filled with pain
To think of shared moments so sweet.

How poignant to know
They have ended.
How consoling to know
They can't change.

All our shared moments
Are suspended
In our memories
Where they cannot change.....

Power & Magick 2 U,
luv,
Wiz

[Wizard]

How can I ever thank you for turning me on to Elizabeth Bishop? What a fantastic poet! You were so right about me enjoying her poem "The Fish". She really put me right in the boat with her and I could see it through her eyes! You have opened up a whole other world of poetry for me. I love reading poetry that takes you to other vistas when the walls seem to be closing in! How are YOU doing? I think of you often as of late and also keep you in my prayers. Here's a quick thought by Connie Hunt:

HOPE
Often lost
Then found
Where least expected......

Milo, I've found not only Hope here, but REAL FRIENDS.....
Thank you for being my friend,
Power & Magic 2 U,
Peace & Light on U always,
Wizard

[cindi]

Wunderful wiz of a wiz he is becuz of wunderful things he duz..and once again,,,,you have taken me to that magical emerald city with that beautiful poetry.. I love poetry....you wish light, power and magik to us but in my eyes and I think I speak for others you my friend are light, power and magik....love to  you and all           cindi

[cindi]

Ok,, I forget to mention that I did go for my post MRI doc appointment today....it showed that i have degenerative disc disese (disease), osteo arthritis, bulging discs...and due to the degen disc....i have lost some of the vertebral fluid...which is normal?    anyway  the nurse who has looked at me funny in the past  ( no, she didn't have a crush on me LOL)  finally admitted that maybe I am in pain after all....WELL, SMACK ME IN THE ASS AND CALL ME SALLY,,,DUUUUHHHHHHHHH   of course I am in pain  my doc has never doubted me but she says now she has documented undeniable proof that I need pain meds and if they improve the quality of my days then she will give them to me....now, I need to ask who has experience with duragesic patches,,,my husband has been put on them   since he has worse pain than me and hates hydro and oxys'  yes, he is for real   (tongue in cheek)  i did talk to a friend of mine who says that duragesic is safer than oxy's and easier to get off of if ever the time comes....luckily I think after searching for pain management for so long he has finally found some help..he is not a pill person at all....has anyone experienced an side effects?   ok dudes  gotta roll,,,i went out a got a cheapie pool for the kids until we finish getting ours open.....so there the 3 of us sit in my driveway in this little pool that caved in on us....I swear someitmes I really am such a dork..I think I may embarrass my daughter sometimes...but ahhhhhhhhhh   it was fun.....and I had a day off.....work 1/2 day tomorrow and then 4 hours thurs and 4 hours friday,,,, a few hours next week and then Hello NC and Hello florida.....eeeeeekkkkkkk I am too excited....later taters    love you all     cin

[Wizard]

I've never used the patches but from what I understand they are safer in the sense that they are harder to abuse. That is unless you stick more then your scripts worth on your body. LOL I've also heard that there was not the kinda "Dragon" high with them. Cin, this is all hearsay to me so maybe someone who has had experience with them should respond better to you luv. Whatever the case I'm glad you got an answer from your doc even if it wasn't the best news it at least validates you symptoms. I'll keep you in my heart and prayers as always you know that. Oh ya, don't try to chew the patch I heard they taste like dinosaur poop! LOL just kidding, I've chewed dino poop ROFLMAO!
Atcha later sweety,
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light all over your bod,
luv,
Wiz

[Milo]

Hey, I'm glad you enjoyed the poem. It was the first thing that came to my mind when I read your post about your fishing trip. I used to go fishing with my dad & uncle when I was a kid, & still have fond memories of  being out on the lake or at the pond...I think a lake may be the most peaceful, serene place in the world.
I'm actually feeling better today. Yesterday marked 2 weeks taking Wellbutrin, and I noticed a real change -- I had more energy, more motivation, etc., than I've had in a long time! And my "stomach problems" (IBS) seem to have settled down as well. So we'll see how it goes.
Blessings to you my friend, Milo

[Milo]

"Well smack me in the ass and call me Sally" -- that's one I'm going to have to remember! LOL. Seriously, I'm glad that you've gotten the "documentation" you need for proper pain management without suspicion. It's a crazy world we live in, hm?
Milo

[cindi]

you guys are so supportive....I did hear that the patch is pretty hard to abuse and trust me,,that is the farthest thing from doug's mind....ummmmmmmmm    dinosar poop?    ROFLMAO...T-Rex turds?   you are hysterical.....once kissed a guy with dinosaur breath ewwwwwwwww   but that was the closest I have ever come to a dino....I don't think doug will chew on them.....I can't even picture him sitting in a corner gnawing on the patches....Steppenwolf playing in the background....dazed eyes....LOL    drool.....what a picture......ok  guys....off to get the kiddies in bed...they wore me out playing in the knee deep pool    ours will be ready in a day or so and then  OFF TO THE OCEAN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   :)  Yeah buddy!!!!      love to you and all    cindi

[susanlea]

You know my story about him stealing my pain meds. After how he got addicted, I threw all my pills away, I had, had enough. With all my spinal, and muscle problems, my pain doc suggested the patch. I'm now on month three, and it has made a world of difference! I swear by it....it works better for me than oxy's did. I've tried everything, dilauded, morphine, oxy's ect...if you use it as suggested you will not have any major pain. You don't get high at all, you can't even feel any effects, other than after about the first 4 days you forget about the pain. The only side effects I had were I felt queasy the first few days until my body adjusted. Other than that I haven't even had a mild headache. I still have a bottle of 150 vicoprophens but I haven't needed them. It can be abused, either put a heating pad, or hot water against the patch and it will absorb quickly, but I hear it really makes you sick to your stomach.  Good Luck...love Susan

PS. I read some people have died from trying to get it to absorb quickly...be careful

[cindi]

Thanks for the info...the patches are for my husband but if they do help him then maybe i will try them....if I go cold turkey from the hydros to the patch then the patch should help me get off the hydros?  I really need constant relief....and the pills are getting old fast   luv ya girly

[Milo]

"the nurse who has looked at me funny in the past"...I ran into that today when I asked for a Vicodin refill. I had only taken 20 in almost a month, obviously less than 1/day average, but the woman talked to me like I was trying to scam her..."We've already given you quite a bit", etc. I just love how some health problems are socially/legally/morally "acceptable," while others might as well have the Scarlet Letter right there on the patient's file! I guess all the legislation about patients' rights to adequate pain control hasn't sunk in yet, or has been overshadowed by all the recent oxy/vicodin horror stories in the press...Oh, well, thanks for listening to me ***** & moan, and I do sincerely hope your treatments provide you with the relief you need. -- Milo

[Beth]

Dr- I stopped donating breastmilk when I started opioid treatment for migraines/seizures. I will not donate again until I am certain it is safe. The danger of formula is much more evident than a small amount of hydrocodone (I currently take 15 mg per day and am trying to work that down all the time.) but I will still wait until I have a clear answer from a trustowrthy physician before I donate again.

[Milo]

Just as a followup to say there is hope, I saw my GP today, and he actually cares about his patients (as opposed to certain health care "workers" who judgmentally count pills & cluck their tongues). I didn't ask for narcotics -- didn't want any -- but together we've solved several of my ongoing medical problems. So if your doctor isn't treating you well, don't accept it! Ask for referrals from friends & keep at it until you find someone who will work with you compassionately. I don't mean a "Dr. Feelgood," but someone who truly has your best interests at heart. They may be few, but they're out there! -- Milo