Pain killer alternatives

[broom]

I'm a computer programmer.
I have tendenitis on both forarms,
Ehler Danlos (mild), and a history
of drug addiction.  The drugs
were from age 13-18, and I've been
clean about 20 years (rehab, NA, AA).

I live on Viox for my arms, 50MG a day.
I'm still in a lot of pain, and I can only
code for an hour or 2 before I can't
type anymore.

What are my alternative drugs?  Anaprox
and familiy rip holes through my stomach,
and real opiates are off limits.  I see
Ultram, but it seems like some kind off
opiate cross-over that I should stay away
from.

[Thomas02]

tell me, did you experience any relief from the anaprox family of drugs, or even from aspirin? The reason I ask is that there's a new, very popular NSAID (anaprox family) of drug which offers the benefits of the anti-imflamatories like anaprox, but doesn't harm the stomach. It's called Celebrex. It's a Cox-2 inhibitor. They're are others coming out just like Celebrex, but that's the one that's available now. Out of curiosity, have you ever tried taking Enteric-coated asprin, like Ecotrin for the pain? Enteric asprin passes through your stomach before it gets broken down and this seems to convey all the benefits of asprin (which are considerable) without damaging your stomach. Celebrex is prescription only and, you guessed it, pretty expensive. It wouldn't cost you much to try the enteric asprin. Hope that helps.

[cindi]

Have you ever heard of MOBIC?  I think it may be a new NSAID?   I believe this is very expensive also..And by the way, Yhanks for your words in the other thread...You are the sunshine on a snowy day like to day...Oops  forgot, California? Love to all  cindi

[broom]

Celebrex was worthless.  As a pain killer, it is less effective
than tylenol.  This is based on both personal experience,
family experience (my brother is in a lot more pain than me,
and had the worst year of his life on Celebrex), and finally,
via a Celebrex sales slime.  This person is related via
marraige to me, and told us that she was aware of the
almost valueless pain management equation concerning Celebrex,
but it was her job to push it to Doctors.  Scum.

I am aware of the Cox/2 issues, and I was under the impression
that Viox was the most effective of the family.  Celebrex was
an accidental discovery, Viox was engineered after they
found out about it.

The key issue with the COX 1 VS 2 is that NSAIDS in general
inhibit both, and Celebrex and Viox do (mostly) just 2. COX
1 is used by the stomach lining to move mucas around,
protecting it, which means that when it gets inhibited ulcers
start because your stomach acid gets to the lining.  


Concerning ecotrin (and other coated asprins), they STILL
inhibit COX 1, that just don't directly damage your lining
since they dissolve in the intestines.  Since the COX 1 is
still inihibited, your own stomach acid can cause an ulcer
after extended use, you just won't realize it is connected to
the ecotrin since you didn't spit up blood when you ate it.

As far as cost, while I am not wealthly, I am well paid
as a programmer, and have a prescription plan, so it
should not enter into the picture.

Thanks for trying.

Barry

[broom]

According to this:
http://www.mobictablet.com/mobictabs7-5-15mg.htm

There are serious stomach bleeding issues associated
with this drug.  It's an old line NSAID with COX 1
inhibition.

Oh well.

Barry

[BadBob]

Having struggled with addiction during my youth, I certainly understand your reluctance to experiment with "real" narcotics.  It is possible that your present potential for addiction is far less than you believe it to be.  The Twelve Step Self Help programs, while they do often work and frequently offer a solution where none could be found before, unfortunately leave one with the impression that there is no possibility for fundamental change.  This is probably true for ETOH and likely also for the hard narcotics like opium and heroin which are taken without medical supervision but perhaps less so for such drugs as Vicodin and Percocet; certainly far less for Darvon.  Could you take theraputic ammounts of Hydrocodone or Codeine at this point without becoming an addict again? Probably so.  Should you?  Probably not if you're worried about it.  We must all bear in mind, however, that there really are NO viable alternatives to narcotics for effective long term pain control.  That said, have you heard of a drug called Talwin-Nx.  This is a compound of Pentazocine and Naloxone.  I don't know much about this combination except that it is specified for use by patients with a history of drug dependence.  Perhaps someone else in this excellent forum might have more information.  You are certainly not the only one caught between this particular devil and the deep blue sea.

[broom]

> Pentazocine and Naloxone.
>    by patients with a history of drug dependence

Wicked stuff.

Pentazocine is a real pain killer, not a real "narcotic", ie:
opoid, but will real CNS depressant and painkiller affects.
Also, highly addictive.

Naloxone is a narcotic antagonist.  This means is binds
to the narcotic receptors in your nerves without stimulating
the narcotic effect, thereby blocking heroin, morphine, or
any real narcotic from working.  This only happens when you
inject it, and it is in this formulation to keep addicts
from injecting it.

When my shoulder was dislocated and they gave me a real painkiller  before shoving it back in, I was HAPPY.  I was
so happy, I  annoyed the staff, so they gave me this (I
assume), which brought me down in about 10 seconds.  Bummer.

I can't accept any drugs that'll make me stupid.  As a
computer programmer, I live by my wits.

Also, while Vicodan is formulated for people like me, it's
not for any real useful reason.  It still get's me high,
it just has in instant tolerance, which forces you to
double and quadruple dose for the same affect.  Worthless
for long term pain.

Percodan/cet, on the other hand, is FUN (or was).  Not for
me any more.

And I have no idea why people consider Darvon a pain killer.
I seem to recall some studies showing the placebo as better.

Oh well

Thanks anyway

[Thomas02]

What an appropriate handle. For someone in enough pain to write this forum, you have aggressively swept every solution right off the table. Every one of them has something you find totally unacceptable. I'm not sure what you were expecting to find. Opiates are opiates. They all ask a price for the relief they afford. You either pay the price or suffer in silence. You may have to compromise in order to find a solution.

A totally benign drug that preserves complete mental clarity with zero addictive potential sounds like something from a science fiction novel.

[broom]

> I'm not sure what you were
>    expecting to find.

Dunno.

That's the point of asking.

Since I've stopped watching the medical journals,
may a new non-bleeding NSAID like Viox but with
far better pain killing effects has shown up
without me noticing.

I apologize if I "sweep" away everything, but
I accept that I will be in pain if I wish to
continue my career, and I will be in the streets
destitute if I take the easy pain relief way out.

If any of the things I've said were wrong, please
let me know.  I may be totally full of ****, but
until someone sets me straight, I won't know.

Maybe I was hoping for somebody to say good things
about Ultram in the context of painkilling without
addiction, since this seems to be the best available
with the lowest mind  altering aspect, but it didn't
happen.

Thanks for trying.

[BadBob]

Please don't take this as a criticism but you do honestly have me confused.  Why are you looking for someone to say something; in this case something good about Ultram?  Wouldn't you be better served seeking the truth?  Anyway, the jury seems to be out on Ultram.  I have used it for knee pain post-op and it does work, at least in my case.  I did not feel any significant euphoria ar other change in mentation.  I will admit that I was not on the drug long enough to know anything about it's addictive potential but it did not make me feel like I wanted to get high on stronger stuff and I didn't finish the bottle which I ALWAYS do with percocets.  Ah but the stories; horror stories I have heard.  There is a pretty good forum dedicated to Ultram on the Rx Board.  If you type just that, Rx Board, into a search engine I think you can find it.  If not, let me know here and I will look myself and get back to you

[cindi]

Being a recovering addict I had a doc who felt "comfortable" giving me ultram....Bad move,  While I did not really get a buzz on them I had been taking about 8-10 a day and the withdrawals were comparable with my opiate withdrawals.  my sister, (not an addict) was taking about 8 a day and had a helluva time getting off of them,.Same situation with several other Non addict freinds of mine.  I understand that Ultram will soon become if not already become a controlled substance.  It apparantly binds to the opiate receptors just like the opiates.  I have also heard "rumors" they were thinking about taking it off the market?  hope that helps a little bit concerning ultram.     cindi

[chad]

Well Broom,
     I agree with everyone else.  It seems you already read alot about this stuff, I think most of us on this board know enough about painkillers and pills to be a damn Pharmacist, or even a Doctor.  Have you tried Dolobid?  Naproxen?  Dolobid worked for me as an NSAID but it tore my stomach up.  I too am in computers, I develop websites and am always on the computer.  I don't have anything wrong with my arms, hands or fingers but I do know there is a new C+ program in development, it uses voice recognition and commands.  Therefore long boring scripting and useless Unix commands Via:Typing, will hopefully be null and void one day.  I know it doesn't help now but, Oh well...Se'La Vi'

Take Care
Chad b

[broom]

> Have you tried Dolobid? Naproxen?

Dolobid - no, Naproxen - yes, stomach pain.

My brother (who I commute with) aready went
through the bleeding ulcer associated with
various NSAIDs, so I'm real sensitive to the
issue.

Now he's on a mix of Viox and Ultram, but he
doesn't have the same drug history as me so Ultram
is "safe".

> it uses voice recognition and commands.

Can't use them.  I'm a Perl/SQL/Unix geek.  They
are for dictation and canned commands.  Those of use
who CREATE the commands (making up the words as you
go, variable names, etc) confuse the hell out of them.

> Therefore long boring scripting and useless Unix
> commands Via:Typing, will hopefully be null and void
> one day.

I hope not.  I script someone once, and it'll run
forever.  And I love doing it, so I'll put more
of an effort into keeping it that way.

[spook]

If the tendenitis developed in the course of your employment,I think the best alternative pain killer is to stop doing the thing that is causing the pain,see your doctor,get a medical certificate and have a `long` PAID break,if you do not get better after the break go on Workers compensation.
Do not use Ultram as it is addictive,otherwise it would be an OTC drug,they cannot have it both ways,just aren`t that stupid are we?.
If you had the tendenitis before getting the job,you have big dilemma.If you take painkiller it does not matter whether it is addictive or not,you will seriously exacerbate your medical condition.Get a referal from your doctor for a specialist in that area(tendenitis).May need surgery soon.Your future is in your hands(arms).

[Brighty]

Since my daughter is in recovery I have also asked the same question as Broom here in the past about non-addictive pain killers for addicts. The story is the same. I think there is a difference though with chronic pain and a short term pain, such as a post op temporary pain. I am wondering then about this highly sought after buprenorphine ( not yet fully approved here for some uses)... would it be good for either chronic pain or short term pain for addicts ????

Next question... what is this business about THIQ... acronym for a long name I cannot pronounce. I have heard that this "chemical" is present when pain is present and "directs" the opiate to work on the pain and not the "pleasure center"... supposedly this makes the short term use of narcotics ok for an addict..... ( sounds like a risk to me)... can you explain this to me ??? Thanks very much. Love, Brighty

[cindi]

Hi Brighty,  I know this question was sent to spook but i had to butt in for a minute. I think I may have said this in some other post but Buprenorphine was the first drug I injected into my body, followed by stadol and Nubain which then led me to the demerol, morphine etc.  I did get a "high" from the bup but apparently not enough because I left that drug for other.  it was readily available.  We did not keep it locked up in the Narc cabinet at work so I did not have to sign for it as I did with other drugs.  One thing I would like to add it that when I would run out of my stash like on my weekends off etc. I always had the Bup to cover me until I could get back to work.  It did hold off any withdrawal symptoms.  I too, am curious about the THIQ.  I do remebmer hearing about that chemical in early early detox so I was not really listening I guess. I thought they said that it is a chemical that addicts have more of as opposed to non-addicts. Oh, ****  I don't remember.   Spook,  Oh Spook are you out there?     Ok Brighty, Thank you for letting me butt in.     Love cindi

[Brighty]

Thanks for your input which I did miss in another post... it's really hard finding things here, the threads are so long. I do realize that the bup has dangers since it is both antagonist and agonist. And it is very enlightening to hear you got started with it as I have never heard anyone else have that experience..... although you may not be the only one. I guess that nurses and doctors have other availabilities the average person does not !! Just wondering... why did you choose the bup in the first place ?? Figured it was safe ??  

I guess my question is more regarding the person who is already an addict and does not want to relapse... there is very little out there in the way of pain killers for them.... so I am wondering if the bup is a bit of a help in that I have heard it's long acting and not producing a high on a normal dose. (??)Basically my question is trying to find the lesser of the evils !!!  I heard someone say that there are more people in France on buprenorphine than on methadone.... so I am wondering if it would be a bette maintenance drug than methadone since I have read that it's a much easier drug to wean off than most other narcotics. Like your mom and Maria's mom I am always looking for information because I do not want to ever see my child go through this again... and sooner or later most of us need surgery or pain relief. I am very appreciative of your input because it makes me realize that the bup is not something to consider safe by any means and we should not start thinking of it that way. Take care and I hope you have a better day today.... you are in my prayers. Love, Brighty

[maryann]

I am a recovering alcoholic(03/80) and have been on opiates for 2 years for severe injury to cervical vertibra. Have recently had surgery for this and am in search of information on detoxing from these pain meds. Am currently using Duragesic patch 75 every 48 hours, and oxir 5 mg for breakthrough pain. Am 2 weeks post op and find I still have some pain. Am trying to stretch the time between patch changes by 24 hours, and am having some results. I do require oxir on occasion. NSAID's cause severe epigastric pain and swelling of my ankles. Am attempting cerebrex and using tylenol every 6 hours. I am very frightened of withdrawal as I saw a family member detox from methadone and he went through hell and almost landed in a nursing home, he was 32 years old.
Am seeing my pain doctor next week and want to be off drugs soon if not NOW, and know a gradual detox is possible but am so afraid. Would Bupren be of help, any one else gone down this path and have any insights.
maryann

[cindi]

I really don't know what to say about Bup being safe for addicts.  I am at a loss.  To be very honest with you I choose BUP atwork because I was having alot of trouble sleeping  (I worked nights) and I was going through a really dark period in my life.  I needed to sleep.  I read that it can cause euphoria  and or Drowsiness.  It worked.  Then The effects were not as good as they were so I went on to other things.   Finding that if I mixed Demerol and Nembutal that I could sleep for 14 hours straight, (blackout followed by coma)  and then I did keep the stash of BUP at my house (I called it my first aid kit) in case I would run out of demerol and start going through withdrawals.  I know your fears of seeing your daughter go back to using.  I live with the fear that my kids will end up addicts.  If this disease is hereditary then they are in double Jeopardy.  I don't know if I could take what I put my mom through and what your daughter has put you through.  God bless you   Love to all Cindi

[PS >>>>Annie]

I just wanted to drop a few lines to let you know how much I appreciated your prayers and emails.  There is much power in prayer.  I'm still very weak, and weary of the road ahead, but w/ friends like you....I know I'll be o.k.  I know there will be severe withdrawals coming off of the meds....So yall just get ready for my never ending questions. lol.....Stay in touch.
Love Ya!
Annie

[cindi]

Boy,  We sure did miss you.  How r u feeling?  it's nice to have you back with us and I am still praying for you....Just becuase your surgery is over doesn't mean you don't need prayers anymore.  Just take it slow,  Don't get overly tired and Take your pain medicine..Being painfree will help your recovery process....PS  Did they tell you to cough and deep breath?  Keep your little lungs in shape so do your exercises  LOL   Hopefully you have someone there to help you....Keep in touch when you are feeling up to it....Have not heard a whole lot from spook but when we do we know it   He's pretty ok...smart as anything    LOL   Love cindi

[Brighty]

God bless you !! Welcome back.... and take it easy !! Love, Brighty

[spook]

Buprenorphine trials(IV)take home dose,self administer, were carried out here in Perth Western Australia,by a Medical Doctor(15 or more years ago) who thought it may be a good idea,He ended up up with cues of people leading into the streets,All of them Opioid Addicts and all of them either abusing,selling,or failing to taper off the Buprenorphine.It is an Opioid mixed agonist/antagonist,and a reasonable (better than Codeine) painkiller and has abuse potential.It is apparently quite an antideppresant also.
In the end(about 2 years later) the project? was deemed a failure and shut down by the Health Dept,however,if used appropriately(sublingual) and with gradual taper and close personal councilling/obsevation,it would make an excellent step down from a strong Opioid dependence,but not in any way cure the Addiction component,for that you need specialized Psychiatric intervention and currently we have a lack of suitably trained professionals,and NO MONEY...
As far as Terahydroisoquinoline(THIQ) goes,it is present in the brains of alcoholics to a much larger degree than Normals(due to genetic reasons) and is the cause of their increased Euphoria from alcohol and subsequent alcoholism.It participates in the same Dopamine Euphoria regulation sytems that Opioids are ligands to however I am not familiar with any involvement of it in the Opioid Euphoric state.Any new knowledge or references would be appreciated.

[Thomas02]

by the same token, is there a genetic predisposition to opiate addiction? I have written about my first exposure to an opiate (a hydrocodone-based cough syryp) sometime back on this forum. I will repeat myself only so far as to say that it was the closest things to a religious/mystical experience I have ever had -- an experience I obviously never got over. Thirty years of opiate addiction has cost me a lot. I'd like to know if, like the alcoholic, I was likewise "doomed" by genetic inheritance.

[spook]

Currently Many Scientists believe that Some people not only have exquisite sensitivity to Opioid Euphoria,but also have Faulty or deficient Endorphin Systems leading to increased NEED states and modified responses to stress,etc.
They believe that Genetics underscores these Conditions,but have not found any Neurological or Biochemical evidence to Support this as far as I know.(I am going to look at some of the latest research papers)
N.b Practically Invariable ones first experience to Opioids produces Dysphoria not euphoria.So you may be onto something here.

[Thomas02]

thanks again for your learned response to my question. Euphoria? Boy, that's an understatement if there ever was one. I took some Tussionex at bedtime (normal dosage, nothing abusive), and for the rest of the night, I floated 6 feet above my bed, every real and imagined memory of bliss and glory flowing through my mind like a river. The experience changed me forever. Euphoria's a short and simple way to refer to the experience, but it was much, much more than that. Too bad it wasn't just mild euphoria followed by a night's sleep. Might have saved me thirty years of trouble. Anyway, thanks again, spook. I don't think we've ever had a poster in your line of work participating regularly and I find your insights fascinating. Please keep coming back.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I've said  many times here that my first injection of morphine hit "the spot" with me.  That was thirty years ago and I've been chasing that dragon ever since.  As Patrick says, euphoria is a very simple way of putting that fleeting moment in time and the lives we lead to "get back there".  J.B.

[cindi]

Ahhh  Euphoria, My first experience with Euphoria was the best feeling I have ever had, unfortuantely, I have not found that feeling since, (at least not an exact euphoria) and like Tom and JB my search for that has led me to many years of addiction.  I have a typical "addictive personality" and for many years I have been the "strong person" in my family, so in order to live up to that name, to hide the fact that I cry, hurt etc. just like everyone else I have found that if I stay in this state of "euphoria" I can keep from crying etc.and let thime think I am superwoman.  My grandpa was an alcoholic and I believe it did run on that side of the family, this could maybe have a direct correlation as to why I am the addict?  Not my sister, my mom etc.   Just me?  I am just curious, Tom and JB do you have anyone else in your family that suffers from addition like siblings etc?  or are you the chosen ones?  Thanks guys and have a great day    Love to all   cindi

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Yes, many of my family have had problems with drugs and alcohol. I was 19 years old when I got started on opiates for injuries sustained while serving in the military.  Prior to that time, I was innocent of anything(booze,nicotine,sex,etc.) When I returned stateside my family barely recognized me in more ways than the obvious.  I was a full blown addict and in search of drugs in Downtown Midwest USA.  Was I a chosen one?  You bet!
The drug found me before I even knew that it existed.  
I got little support from my family during those times and was mainly ostrasized in general. They cared little of the medals that adorned my uniform. I was sick and confused for a long time.  Thanks to my friends in AA and my own inner strength(God)I never pulled the trigger of the gun that I had pointed at my head!  J.B.

[cindi]

I suppose we all have our own stories of pain etc.  GOd bless the "chosen One"  My love and prayers to you and Marty    How is she doing?  Love cindi

[spook]

Morphine Euphoria;

Pleasant euphoric state, including strong feeling of contentment, well-being,exquisite orgasmic tingly, luscious yum, yum like feeling all over body and brain,beautiful vivid dreams while still awake,feels like every atom in the universe is in just the right place and lack of concern with reality"sorry whats that,I forgot",shut the F..k up would you,emotions,life,death...forming part of the affective reinforcing response of the drug.
Opioid stimulation of positive reward system, normally "reserved" to species-specific `survival` behaviors, provides the kind, sensitive-human user/abuser/and rampant drug fiend deviant with an experience that brain equates(substitutes) with profoundly important events like eating, drinking, and sex-"oh how naughty,I am disgusted","I told you to keep quiet,this is important,alright","uh, oh Alrighty then Man,chill out".

Opioid-induced Sedation and Anxiolysis

Produces anxiolysis, sedation, and drowsiness,"sorry what was that again"?"ah!!!" Produces anxiolysis, sedation, and drowsiness,I said, but level of sedation is not as deep as that produced by CNS depressants."um sorry I just fell asleep could you repeat that?". I said, but level of sedation is not as deep as that produced by CNS depressants."um sorry I just fell asleep AGAIN could you repeat that?".Oh well stuff YOU, miss out then on this really important knowledge.

Mental clouding prominent, accompanied by lack of concentration, apathy, complacency, lethargy, reduced mentation, and sense of tranquility,"whats that man,you say tranquility,like in STP,wow man sounds cool,anyway what was that white powder you injected into me about 20 minutes ago,got any more"."I told you to be quiet"(silence).But in dependent people,increased mentation,motor activation,more concentration-unless you got a Liddle BId too stoned.
Anxiolytic actions from `mu` receptor inhibition of neuronal activity in locus coeruleus, (norepinephrine).  
Withdrawal events will be perceived as life-threatening,"are you threatening me","Shut up PLEASE"!"you are starting to embarrass me", and subsequent physiologic reactions often lead to renewed opioid consumption.
Users self-inject for many reasons:
1. to try to re-experience `extreme` euphoria experienced after first few injections,tablets,snorts,whatever and if they stopped for a few months or more could get nicely HIGH again.
2. to maintain state of pleasure and well-being
3. to prevent mental discomfort associated with reality(reality is a disease caused by lack of drugs,we all know that!right?,anybody,help,;^ or
4. to prevent withdrawal symptoms.

Behavioral "theories" accounting for continued opioid use:especially #7.

1. Continued use avoids distress and dysphoria associated with withdrawal.
2. Euphoria produced by opioids leads to continued use.
3. Preexisting dysphoric or painful affective states are alleviated.
4. Euphoric response is an atypical response to opioids that occurs in individuals with preexistent psychopathology or Hyper sensitive Opioid/VTA systems .
5. Preexisting psychopathology/sociopathology,screwed up society or having a bad life(blame your parents,society,anybody,but yourself) may be basis for initial experimentation and euphoria, but repeated use is prompted by desire to avoid withdrawal.
6. Some individuals have deficient endorphin systems that are corrected by opioid use.
7. Repeated use of opioids leads to "permanent" dysfunction in endorphin system such that normal function requires continued use of exogenous opioids.(hmm sounds like I could exploit this one)
8. Drug effects and drug withdrawal can become linked through environmental cues and internal mood states...emotions and external cues recall distress of withdrawal or memory of opioid euphoria or opioid reduction of dysphoria or painful affective states.

And thats about it folks,I have not had any Opioids for 15 days now and I just drank a bottle of beer and feel Terrific,but nothing like that injection of heroin I had about 6 weeks ago,oh well.I did not inject any white substance before writing this,I think the beer is just SOOOOO Pleasant and gets me so High.Lucky I only got one bottle...and only drink once a week or so;getting hungry now ,goodbye and `have a nice life`.  

[Hbush]

Both my husband and I are detoxing together right now. He has been taking Oxytcontin (240mg/day) for 6 months, but  has been on all the levels of bup you can get plus Lortab, Stadol, and the slew of anti depressants out there. So, as his dosage wentup, so did mine. I finally had to admit to him (1.5 years ago) that I was an addict and stealing his pills. We got to be very desperate with this drug. Finally, I found a wonderful doctor who is helping us both detox and neither of us are having any withdrawl symptons AT ALL. And believe me, I detoxed on my own once and it wasn not fun. Here is the combination of drugs we are taking:

Buprenex - this is the main thing. We both started at 4 shots a day. I am down to 1 and he is still at 3. He was addicted for much longer than I and also has Fibromyalgia.

Catapress (Clonodine) - This is actually a blood pressure med but works for some reason although I only take half at a time as I fall asleep otherwise!

Valium - for the anxiety that comes with withdrawl

Flexeril - I was also hooked on Some (which increases the effects of the oxy) so Doc gave me some lesser strenght muscle relaxers.

It is the best move I have made in my life because I feel that Oxycontin was ruining my life. I have gained 35 pounds, I never want to do anything unless I am high and I woke up each morning feeling like a truck just ran over me until I got my fix (eventually hubby just started splitting his stuff with me cuz I neeeded it).

We are not out of the woods yet, but I have not had an Oxy for over a week now and no cravings. What I am afraid of is that these detox meds give me a little buzz (more tiredness) and that I can handle being "straight" all the time. Of course, my husband is afraid of the pain coming back. But he is goint to see a new pain mgmt spec soon.

Wish us luck!

[Thomas02]

ok spook, you brought it on yourself: #7 -I've been basically on rx opioids non-stop for 30 years (AND i DO MEAN NON-STOP). How do I determine if I have a permanent endorphin deficit and what do I do about it if I do?

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I know you are expecting an answer from Spook but I just wanted to tell you this.  Last Wednesday I had a stress test which required me to walk on a treadmill.  I had to stay on the machine until my pulse rate went up to 145 bpm.  After 4 minutes I had only gone from 90 to 120 bpm so they sped the machine up to where I was almost running. At seven minutes I finally reached the target rate and the test was stopped.  I was higher than a kite and felt great!  Don't endorphines cause the "joggers high"?  Anyway, my legs were not hurting and I felt pretty good for about twenty minutes.  The next day, my knees had swollen and I could hardly walk.  Yesterday, I jogged for about ten minutes and got that same buzz again.  I'm getting ready to do it again this morning.  It's either endorphines or lack of oxygen to the brain but I like it!  J.B.
P.S. the stress test was done to check my heart because I've been having angina pains lately.

[PS >>>>Annie]

Just wanted to tell you that I think your enthusiasm is great.  I wish that I could jog.  Maybe once the healing process is over and now that the plate is out, I will be able to.  I have a question for you.  Why does the swelling occur??  That has been happening to me.  When I walk around, the center of my leg swells like a balloon, and it's very painful.  I was just curious.  Sorry to interupt here, but it's always nice to hear from you.

Love,
Annie

[Thomas02]

Sorry to hear about the angina pains. Maybe they'll give you some of that sublingual morphine for it (now that's a party!). Both Dan and spook have mentioned the possibility of permanently compromising your brain's ability to manufacture endorphins, no matter how far you run. That's my concern. If there's a test, I'd sure like to at least rule it out. Good to hear from you JB. Enjoy your jog and I hope your angina leaves you alone.

[cindi]

JB, sorry to hear about the angina, I hope everything is ok with you....question for patrick...Is it me or did someone get rid of the thread regarding adipex and phentermine?  does this (deleting questions) happen alot?  hope everyone is doing well   love to all     cindi

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thanks for the supporting comments!  I don't have the complete results of my test yet but the technician told me I had an irregular heartbeat.  I don't know how serious this can be yet but I was RX'd Nitrostat(nitroglycerin pills).  I've only needed them one time and it worked quickly but I did get a headache(main side effect).  It felt like my blood pressure instantly dropped and my chest and shoulder pain subsided.

I jogged again yesterday for maybe half a mile.  My knees are feeling better now.  I used to laugh when my doctors suggested excersizing.  Afterall, I have arthritis and a bad back! The body must need a certain amount of excersize to stay healthy.  Like they say, "use it or lose it!"

About the deleted threads:  I've seen this happen a few times.  One time Tom and I were discussing the use of opiods to treat depression and bingo--they were gone the next day!  J.B.

[PS >>>>Annie]

....There is no doubt, exercise plays a big part in your total health.  You know what else is good?? Skipping meals and drinking Slim fast, Sustacal(SP?), and Ensure.  This nearly brought me back to life, and it sustained my health during that long hospital stay after the mva.  I still have one for lunch or dinner every now and then.  
JB...You make me want to run outside and jump for joy....lol  I can't wait till I am mended......I will go swimming, I think.  Hey....this is easy on the joints, and does wonders for the heart.......Do you have access to a pool???  

Good to hear from you!
Annie

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I ran again this morning and made it all the way around my property which is about 1.8 miles.  Well I walked alot anyway when I got winded.  My Mom has also suggested Slimfast so I going to try it.  I surely hope that you will be able to get out soon and enjoy this Spring weather!  I've been pretty inactive all winter and my body felt like **** most of the time.  I love to swim but don't have access to a pool.  I suppose that I could jump into my pond but it's a little too cold for that today.

Thanks and take care, Annie!  J.B.

[cindi]

let us know when you get the results of your testing back,   Did you doc give you any indication as to what may be causing th arrythmia?  Hopefully it is something that medication will be able to take care of.  Yes, big side effect of Nitro headaches.  I remember once I had to put nitropaste on a patient and got some on my are without realizing it,  I ended up with a major headache.  Does your doc know you are jogging?  Is this jogging something new for you or is your body used to it?  Just be careful ok?  I used to dance (I was going to be a professional but went to nursing school instead, did aerobics etc.  I felt really good while doing it, now the only time I get real exercise is when I'm in my pool. but I do chase toddlers around all day at work and then my son is only 3 he kddps me going.  I am sending my daughter to dance since she was 2 she is now 7 and she is also doing soccer.  I want her to become active and remain that way.  Too many kids want to do the computer thing all day.  I tried the slimfast, my big problem is I can't drink just one    I have to go for more,  one time I did a shixpack of slimfast in one evening, I was so embarrassed when my husband asked where the slimfast went.  Hey, I'm an addict what can I say?  well, I just hope everything is ok with you   take care   Love to all   cindi

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I did call for my test results yesterday but they probably won't be in until early next week.  As far as the arrythmia goes, I think it is more stress related than anything in my case.  The chest and arm pain(agonizing)seem to also hit me most when I'm in a stressful situation.  I was told that anytime you get these pains, irreversible damage is being done to your heart muscle.  That's a dreadful thought!

I told my doctor about the jogging and he said to take it easy and just do a brisk walk instead and practice deep breathing so I don't hyperventilate.  Probably good advice for me!

Take care of yourself and be well, J.B.

[cindi]

I did not want to stick my nose in your business but I was a little concerned about you jogging and the chest pain etc. Brisk walking is a very good form of exercise as well and I think in your case....the safest. Angina is really nothing to play with,   take care and have a nice evening    my best wishes to Marty    love to all   cindi

[Kerrie]

Hi guys,
  I was wondering if some of you would help me with something. I read all your postings every night. I haven't disappeared.I'm still giving my daughter all the information I get from all of you. But today I need to ask you something. I wrote you about my health problems.So I won't go there again. Here's my question. I had to see my neurologist today. I have trouble walking now due to damage to my back from surgeries and disk disease. He said 3 Lortab 7.5 a day was too many. I've never increased my dosage even though I could take 4 a day. I have percocet for severe pain and I only take it when I have to. But then he told me he wants me to consider taking MS Cotin. He said it is Morphine. I don't get it. I don't get much relief from my pain med but he's worried about me taking 3 Lortab and then tells me to consider Morphine. Please, is there logic behind this? He said Morphine would be better for my pain and longer lasting. But isn't it stronger than hydros? I refuse to take anything that will make me loopy. I can't stand that feeling. He said I wouldn't get that off MS Cotin. I know some of you have a lot of knowledge on these meds. I really need some feed back on this. I also have to consider my daughter that is addicted to hydros. She thinks this is a great idea. Do you think it would be dangerous to have this drug around her? Please give me your views. I really appreciate the honesty I read on this forum. Sometimes it scares me but that's a good thing because I can be bolder with my daughter knowing the dangers. Thanks. I've told my cousin about this site. Her daughter is withdrawing from oxycotin. I hope she gets some help here as well.
    Thanks again, Kerrie

[siliconboy]

First thing - keep all these meds away from the daughter. I suggest you invest in a home safe (seriously) they aren't that expensive. Hopefully Luke spook will respond as he can give you the "COMPLETE and ACCURATE" pharmacological take. Hydrocodone is a fancy synthesis of codiene. Morphine has for ever been the benchmark for dose vs painkilling effectivness and I suspect that is where your doc is coming from. You will probably at this point get better and more lasting relief from morphine at a "relatively" lower dosage. Understand that all of these drugs are fire for anyone with dependency issues. spook?

[annie]

Silicon is right.  Morphine has been around for ages.  All of these meds are highly addictive.  You seem to be taking them for pain and nothing else.  No matter how little, are what BRAND you take.....You will experience withdrawals if ever you have to be taken off. This does not mean that you are a branded addict. You have been fortunate to find a doctor to treat your pain.  I am living in one of the worse States for pain treatment.  We fall behind every state in the country in the way  of advancements toward effective treatment w/ opioids.  Your doctor seems to be educated on these matters.  How to titrate your meds, and wean you if necessary,but it looks like your problems are life long.  Stop the worry over this.  Society has made chronic patients feel like scum of the earth.
Now on the issue of daughter.......Take Silicon's advice.  I know in modern treatments modalities one question they sometimes ask is...Do you have a family member that is addicted.  They won't prescribe in these cases.  This is to avoid diversion.  So maybe you shouldn't mention this.  You need your meds.  Let's pray that your daughter gets the help she needs.  We are the one's who pay the price for diversion.  

Best Wishes,

Annie

[SheMike]

Is this forum still active?  I have been given an assignment to find an alternative to Percocet and Vicoden for a young adult who has severe non-malignant pain from an open wound that is taking a long to heal.  The person has been taking Percocet and Vicoden for about 1-1/2 years.  She has had to surgeries, and the open wound is taking a long time to heal.  The mother is very concerned that the daughter has a physical dependence on the Vicoden, which has been prescribed in high strengths.  I have very much enjoyed reading through this forum.  Even though "broom" dismissed a lot, really appreciated his thorough questioning; it really educates an "outsider" like me.  Inferred that spook, who everyone rightly appreciates, has his own addiction?  Maybe that's wrong, but I sure hope he's okay.  This forum, at least what I see, is from 2001 ... probably many new treatments available now.  

[jce1983]

Maybe you should do some research into Temgesic. The main ingredient is a partial opiod agonist called buprenorphine. It is an semi-synthetic opioid, but it only produces partial agonist qualitys that kill pain for long periods of time and rarely produces a narcotic "high." Buprenorphine is also used in very high doses to treat opioid addiction in such drugs as Subutex and combined with naloxone in the drug brand named Suboxone. I am currently on Suboxone because I have spent 8 years addicted to Oxycontin and Percocet and Vicodin and Heroin and any other opioid I could find. I believe that buprenorphine, a drug that has been in use for more than 40 years could be the waive of the future. once again it is called Buprenorphine- Buprenex (for iv,im,sc injection), Temgesic, Subutex, and Suboxone all for sl (sub-linguial) administration. Let me know what you think about what you find out, ask her doc, and tell me what you come up with, my name is jc. Thank you.