Pain or addiction...That is the question...

I suffer from severe pain as a result of my college football days. The condition was made worse because I was a starting tight-end in a PAC-10 University & prevalent steroid use was the norm with the attitude of "how can something that makes you lean, fast & mean not be healthy? Hmmm, well...The steroids wreaked havoc on my joints & led to three (3) herniated discs, C5, C6 & C7 pushed out 7 to 10 centimeters each. right... The pain was severe & I went from Vicoden to Percocet to Oxycontin as tolerance built up. I never used street drugs & never dealt or gave addiction a thought until years later when I was on 80 - 160mg just to take the edge off the pain. About 5 years ago the Opiates just didn't work anymore & you guessed it, I couldn't function without them. Wham... I knew I was an addicted wreck. I am an athletic, outdoors Marlboro Man type tough guy & I decided I would quit the Oxy myself over a weekend on the couch with a few old westerns & Clint Eastwood movies. After 3 days I wanted to cry like a little school girl, but decided to tough it out. After 5 days I realized I had never dealt with addiction & hurt so bad that I checked myself into a program. I knew I did not know everything & I badly wanted help.

During my detox & program I was prescribed Subutex as I am allergic to nalaxone. I do have very serious neck pain issues, not everyday is a 10 on the bad scale of pain, but never is a day better than a 4 or 5 on the pain scale either. A great side effect of this new drug Subutex was that it actually relieved my pain where Oxy started failing. It still relieves my pain to a most livable 2-1/2 or 3, so the Doc kept me on the Subutex for last 5 years. It has been a wonder drug with my pain. But I now take 12 to 32mg on bad days but never less that 8 to 12mg per day & while I was told I would not have withdrawl (withdrawal) symptoms if I ever decided to try something else or just no longer needed it (hopefully the get to the cervical area with the synthetic discs someday).  At any rate, after going on vacation & forgeting my Subutex for a week, I was hurting bad, & had withdrawls equal to or worse than the Oxy. It opened my eyes & now I am  a bit worried because of what I read about the long withdrawl (withdrawal) times & paws & it  scares me & worries me.

Since then, I decided I want to see about getting off the Subutex & see what if anything I can do for my pain without being addicted & without having the cervical vertebrae fused which would seriously limit my mobility at age 32, way to young for a fused neck.

I have been reading horror stories about the withdrawl (withdrawal) associated with long term Subutex use & am looking for any & all advice. I now know I am addicted physically to the Subutex. I also live with pain & that is what it is prescribed for currently & it still works. But I am now just uncertain & a bit scared. I don't use any other drugs or drink, nor do I take more that prescribed nor intest it in any way other than prescribed. I guess I am just curious about what others in a similar situation may be doing. Is there anything non-addictive that'll help with the pain, what shall I do, what would you do (hypothetically of course. I am not jumping of any bridges because you say so, so please don't be afraid to give advise).

Thanks Everyone!

[rue10]

Hi,

I'm sure someone with experience with sub will come along and answer your question.  In my limited knowledge it doesn't sound to me like your addicted but dependent.  There are pros and cons to subtex which I cannot speak to.  But hang in there and someone with answers will help.

Good luck to you.  It's good that you're looking into this now while you're still young.


Blessings...Rue

[seahorse1963]

I would always be open with your doctor.
Any opiate of any kind is not good for an addict..but that is just my opinion..God Bless you and good luck..I hope someone comes along and can help..I know they use methadone for break through pain but the sad part is people don't realise is it has a half life and take more pain meds and a benzo (add person drug of choice) and it's a dealth combo..from experience, I've been to waaaaaaay too many funerals of young adults who made very poor choices but the all think that it won't happen to them only the next guy..how sad and what a horrible tragedy in my opinion again :)

[OIFMc09]

Hey marlboro man how's it going?  It amazes me how much sub. some doctors prescribe, they are clearly in it for the buck.  I don't know if this is the case with you, but it certainly is with others.  When I started sub on my own - off the streets - I would take a sh*t load, like 32 mds. a day, then I went to the VA to enroll in there sub program and the doctor wanted me to start at 4 mgs. a day.  I thought she was crazy, but I gave it a shot and to my surprise it was just about enough.  We settled on 6 mgs and that's where I'm at now, for the time being.  My point is, opiate addicts don't need large amounts of sub to function, and the only reason people stay on ridiculous amounts is to get doctors and drug companies rich.

You said the sub helps with your pain right?  Would it be such a bad thing if you were on it the rest of your life?  What's the alternative?  If you get off it you'll be in a lot of pain, and who knows where that'll lead.

One more question, do you think the PAC-10 will ever be able to compete with the SEC in football?

Marc

[gnarly_1]

HI I feel your pain I have disk problems in my lower back it got so that none of the conventional pills would work anymore...I was abusing my scripts running out early
getting more scripts so they finely put me on methadone to control pain the problem started with my pain management dr would only give you the drugs if you completed the whole program witch included steroid shots in my spine that where causing more problems with scare tissue we had a falling out over this so I wound up at the local methadone clinic to get my drug...this worked for a wile but I soon built up a tolerence to the methadone and had to keep moving my dose up...I went from 30mg to 150 over a 6 1/2yr period then it quit working for pain and I was stuck with a huge addiction to break it took 8 1/2 mo to taper off it but it was one of the best decisions I have ever made...the side effects far out weighed the benefits I was getting and im so happy to be narcotic free now...as for my back pain...your pain clock sorta resets itself after your off of the narcotics and 800mg ibuprofin actually work now wile I was on the methadone they did nothing for the pain..you can live narcotic free with disk issues.....you may want to try and ween yourself down off the sub and give it a go...life is so much better not being on narcotics with all the side effects....good luck and God bless....Gnarly        

[refusingbondage]

Hello there.  I agree with Marc about your dosage.  A little goes a long way with bupe/sub.  Personally I was on suboxone for almost 3 years.  For me it did little to manage any pain but then again, I did not get hooked on opiates due to pain anyway.  I got hooked for the high.  

I also agree with you that sub detox can sometimes be worse than oxy. Was for me.  Been there, never going back.  

You should probably taper your dose down.  You will probably feel the same effect on 8mg as you do on 32mg.. its the lower doses that get tricky (4mg to 2mg then 2mg to 1mg) and can cause withdrawal.  

Chronic pain is an issue.  And a difficult one.  Severe chronic pain is zero quality of life. Addicted to opiates is zero quality of life.  If you manage your subutex well and re not in a cycle of abuse, then maybe if it works, then use it.  No doubt your physically dependent on it but if your life is not one of active addiction and you are working the maintenance program well, then what is the lesser of two evils.  The question you must ask yourself is how bad is your pain vs. how bad is your addiction.  Lots of addicts convince themselves for years they need the meds, only to find out its managed well, once they get through detox and begin a recovery program.  Im NOT saying that is your case, I'm just throwing it out there.  Are you in any type of Aftercare?    

I have back issues (lower back herniations) also. For me the only thing that really worked to combat the pain was exercise and stretching.  I know that is not the case for everyone and in that I am lucky..but for me painkillers just increased the pain and in time made me less capable of tolerating even minor pain.. When I started a thorough stretching, strength training and exercise regimine, my back pain ended.  

I know we have some chronic pain suffers and recovering addicts on here who use non narcotic alternative methods to help their pain.  Hopefully they will come along with some better suggestions.

Best of luck to you and God bless.

[lmccoy]

Arn't the C vert. in your neck? Most all my neck vert. are very bad, unstable in both directions. Started on oxycontin, quit working even at high doses. Switched to methadone at 80 mg. and right away started reducing the amt. It works great for my pain even as low as 5 mg a day and I feel so much better mentally. Much more energetic and happy that at the high doses of oxy.

[MeFekingLegs]

Firstly, let me thank everyone for the thoughts, prayers & responses.

Yep, C Vert is in the neck. That's the kicker. The have decompression & new synthetic discs for lumbar, but the technology for the neck replacement is still not there. I am in my 30's & doing the standard operation now means cutting into my hip & chiselling out a piece of bone to use as a shim, slicing open my throat, moving vessels & such, shimming up the discs & then installing plates & screws. That means I will have no neck mobility at all. The kicker is that the surgery is said to only be considered successful about 50% of the time.

I don't care about buzzes & highs, I just don't want to hurt & at the same time I don't want to be stuck taking anything for the rest of my life. The pressure from the discs on my nerves is so bad that I can only feel my right hand about half of the time. The numbness is not the thing though, it's the shooting paing from the base of my skull, into my head & down my shoulder & back, all the way to my elbow.

I thoug that subutex was a non-addictive substitute & was a miracle drug. It is as far as pain reduction goes, but the long withdrawls I have been reading about scare me to death. What if I want to try something new, or a new procedure comes along?

After reading, I just feel stuck between a rock & a hard place.

[refusingbondage]

Subutex is bupenephrine.  Bupe is an opiate.  A strong opiate - though its a partial agonist, not a full agonist (like hydro or oxy) however its much stronger than both.  Do some research on bupenephrine you will learn a lot.

The way I see it is if your living in miserable he11 pain everyday then that is no way to live.  You seem to not be an addict, just a person who suffers chronic pain that is dependent on opiates to relieve pain.  

There is a difference between dependence and addiction.  

So if the subutex is working for you, its likely a better option than the others.  I dont advocate sub often because of my own personal experience with it, BUT im not you and your not in the same situation.  You know the deal with the other meds like oxy or hydro.. you climb and climb and climb until nothing or no amount will do it for you -- then what!  With bupe you don't build a tolerance and it has a he11 of a long half life so you do not have to be constantly dosing.  Is it a miracle drug?  No-though many want to believe it is..  But when it comes to pain management and/or treating addiction there is no real miracle drug.  Its how you chose to approach your therapy.  

Chances are you will become dependent to the subutex.  There is no person on earth who can take opiates for extended periods of time and not become dependent.  Its your body's physical reaction to it.  Bupenephrine being an opiate - you will likely be dependent.  But its generally safer than being addicted to oxy and you dont have to play the climbing game.  And if it works, well then.. it works.

Best of luck.

[refusingbondage]

*Bupenorphine* (SORRY - spelling error)

[Vintendo56]

First of all let me begin by saying right out front that I am NOT a doctor, but I am in the process of getting off Subutex.

Buprenorphine is IMHO harder to quit than even methadone because of the length and severity of the withdrawals.  I will send you a PM with a link to a site that describes a "liquid taper method" being used by many people to get off the bupe.  

The standard taper method ( and it is correct that once you get below 3-4mgs that things get hairy) is to drop 10% of whatever your current dose is, every 10-14 days, with a target dose of less than .25mg before jumping off cold turkey.

You REALLY need to coordinate this with your doctor as there are other supplements, temporary medicines to control some of the worst of the withdrawals and paws symptoms, and each person is different so talking with a knowledgeable doctor who has NO financial interest is imperative.

Buprenorphine is a VERY strong opoid, so the trade off question is, can you afford to take the chance of somehow getting cut off at a relatively high dose.  I've been told that trying to jump off bupe at 2mgs, is like cold turkey from 30mg of methadone only the acute w/d's last almost a third longer, and the PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) can last for up to a year! I just cut back from 2.5mgs to 2mgs and it's worse than any other narcotic I have ever tried to quit.  But it can be done.

Vin