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Personality Quirks/Signs/Stress
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Personality Quirks/Signs/Stress

I am living with a 46 year old man for 16 months who has been clean for two years from extensive cocaine and crank use for over 20 years.  He did attend a drug class (required by the Courts) but does not feel any additional counseling is needed.

He is now an alcoholic and probably has been for a long time in addition to the drug use.   I am trying to learn how all this has affected his personality, his dealing with issues on a daily basis.  We are having problems obviously, he will only clean up his drinking on a short term basis if I threaten him with breaking up.  I would like to learn the changes in personality, and all the issues that affect him and for how long from the drug abuse.  I have never dealt with a person suffering from an addictive personality/behavior, and would like to learn how I can handle it and how I can help him, without enabling him.

Thank you.
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I don't know whether you can help him much at this point but you can get a lot of support from the people in ALANON.  They probably have more experience than anybody with these matters and it's free.  J.B.
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I'd agree with J.B. about Al-Anon.  Believe me, as an addict myself I know that there is no changing us until and if we want to change ourselves.  Threatening to leave and other ultimatums will only work for so long and then no longer.  When we decide that we want our drug of choice more than we want you (the Other in the relationship) to stay, or, to be brutally honest, when we decide that you are no longer useful to us, we will leave without a second thought oftentimes.  Not to be rude, but you most definitely cannot help this person with their issues of addiction and abuse, no matter how much you may want to do so.  You can only help yourself by relating to others in your situation to see how they cope.  In NA, we are taught that we need to be selfish about our recovery to the exclusion of *everything and everyone else* if we truly want to stay clean and recover our lives.  Although I am not a member of Al-Anon or Nar-Anon, I would imagine that their organizations would suggest a similar regimen for people in relationships with active addicts or alcoholics.  Hope I have helped a bit.  Good luck on your journey to healing.

Peace,
Pelle
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20 years of coke use? And now alcoholism at 47. This might sound cruel, but get out until he seeks recovery on his own accord. Save yourself. For one thing, chronic coke use (and 20 years certainly qualifies as chronic) permanently damages the reward center in your brain, virtually preventing you from ever really feeling "good" again. This is probably what brought him to booze. The person to explain this best is spook. Hope he's still around to respond.

Want to see profoundly damaged people? Go to a CA meeting. The human wreckage you see there is heartbreaking. Nothing else comes close to cocaine when it comes to permanently destroying one's capacity to live a worthwhile life. Oh, and if you get a hankering to buy some coke, don't worry, it will be for sale just outside the door as soon as the meeting ends. I say this to try to get across to you how hopeless MOST long-term coke heads are. I don't know your significant other, but going by the odds, I repeat, get out - save yourself.
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Patrick is right on the money. You can't change him, but he can change you. You are about to get a lesson in manipulation and deceit from a master.

A word here about the romantic fallacy is in order. Romantic love is a hoax deriving from the era of troubadors and poetry and moonlight and roses and idealism. Ego barriers disintegrate during this period, but after this insane stage passes, the ego snaps back into place and the impossible mental and emotional state you've been in disappears. You get back to being you in other words. And he will get back to being himself. And it ain't gonna be pretty.

Did you grow up in an abusive, dysfunctional family? Do think you can, and should, "fix" this guy? You really can't, you know. Ask yourself why you would even consider sacrificing yourself on this particular alter. You sound like an othewise normal, intelligent person. Better to ask your self why? right now, than to be asking yourself why?, why?, why? later on.

Sounds cruel maybe, but if you don't take care of yourself who else is gonna do it? Him? Not a chance.

Sorry.

Francoise
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All of these responses are so accurate, and all words of people with first hand experience with addiction. At the risk of sounding repetitive, I feel it is so necessary to reinforce the fact the YOU cannot change him,  I have been on both sides of the barrel, trying to change a person I thought needed changing and having someone try like hell to change me,  and I had everyone telling me just what everyone here is telling you I chose not to listen to a word from anyone and had to face the music on my own...I was lied to, used, and then as Pelle mentioned, left in the dust when I was no longer useful, The addict wanted drugs more than me, but, on the other hand, before I chose recovery, I was the one lying, using and leaving people in the dust when THEY were no longer of any use to me...I chose the drugs.  If he is not ready to change, you will be lied to , cheated,taken advantage of and everything else that we addicts do best, and if that is not enough, to top it off you will be totally exhausted, drained of all your energy, beating yourself up over your own guilt because you were unable to help him.  Addiction (when I use the word "addiction" I am referring to any type of Chemical dependency which also includes alochol)takes hostages, it takes us and makes us into prisoners in our own bodies and we in turn take our own hostages in those we love and care about.  Please, just take into consideration what all of us on this forum have told you.  It is truly admirable that you want to help someone you care so much about, I think it is just our basic human instict, but you have to keep in mind that the only person you are responsible for is youself and your own happiness and for you to think otherwise I feel would only be putting yourself in the way of sadness, emptiness and a heartful of loneliness....God truly does help those that help themselves.   God bless you and good luck,    Cindi
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If nothing else, obtain a copy of the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book and start reading.  You will learn a lot about how we addicts think and live.  You can replace the word alcohol with cocaine,crack,heroine,Xanax or whatever.  I don't have the book in front of me right now but there is a chapter(7?) called "Working With Others".  That reading may give you some insight on what you are dealing with today.  

I was actively involved with AA for several years and actually worked all twelve steps.  Though I am no longer active in AA and have had some rather bad relapses in the last few years, what I learned in the program has probably been the best education I've ever had.  Too bad that I never quite grasped the idea of being honest with myself in life.  That has probably been my greatest shortcoming.  But I am working on it!  J.B.
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dear nuge,

sometimes i get so frustrated i want to punch a wall as hard as i  can. my boyfriend is a recovering addict and it has been one of the hardest things i have ever had to deal with.

since we met, he had been going to a methadone clinic for a little over a year. he didn't have a job. he didn't have money. the more we hung out the more i liked him despite the baggage that came with him. our personalities got along so well that i was able to say 'it doesn't matter' whatever his situation was, only that i understand it now and hopefully can work through it with him.

for the most part, it has worked that way. granted, he is 26 and i am 24. he was a heroin addict for 3 years, on methadone for 2. and he REALLY wants to get his life back on track. he WANTS to get and stay clean. I have no doubts about this. so maybe his 'chances' of making it seem a little more hopeful than your man's. but i don't know your man like you do.

anyway, i wanted to write because it really put a downer on me in readng the other responses. i DO BELIEVE in my boyfriend. i DO BELIEVE he can make it.

i have been lied to in ways that tear me apart inside. sometimes i just can't fathom how someone who could love me so much could do such things to me. but then i step back. this isn't him that's stealing from me. it's his addiction.

the lying stemmed from his relapsing back on methadone and being too ashamed to tell me. he'd borrow money for 'cold medicine' and go and get a pill. but i know him well and can see when he's lying. i confronted him time and time again that it was a problem. in a relationship trust is one of the most important things. that was my biggest threat, because it has never crossed my mind to leave him.

once he dealt with the shame and i hammered it in that i NEEDED the truth, he began sharing it all with me. now i feel we are partners in his recovery (as far as that can go anyway), even if he doesn't have anything to give. and the trust is developing. and it feels good.

so let me ask you a fundamental question.. Is your boyfriend worth it?

I struggled for a while because i hadn't made that decision. I was trying to look the other way about his addiction, but realized i couldn't and the denial was only clouding my view of him. When I looked at him for who he is, and when he began to detox off of methadone because he wanted to, i found my answer. i found my support: his desire to get clean.

It is a very selfless act if you are willing to stay with this man. But you also have to know where to draw the line. You can't let yourself get sucked up in his addictive life. You have to be an example.

If you want your boyfriend to get clean and his drinking bothers you. And if HE doesn't care or doesn't REALLY want to get clean..

ask yourself that question.

take care of yourself. know you are not responsible for him. know it is not your job. be a light at the end of the tunnel, but you can't go in the tunnel yourself. Or your light will go out.

cat
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I didn't know how to thank everyone to date for their comments "I'm Nuge", so "thank you".  Reading these comments, this is directed to Cat--hearing her story and her compassion for me--I have to direct this to you.

I "know" "know" "know" what you are going through, and you are still very young as is your boyfriend.  It frightens and angers me that you are willing to make his desire to get clean your support.  I have read these comments these people have made to me and I have to just get to the point when I kick him out, to realize I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE for what he does or what "drug of choice" he may or may not go back to.  I am involved in Al-anon and every one of these comments these people have written to me are right...I know it, I have been choosing to ignore it...more pain for me I guess.  I have let him manipulate my thinking for so long, I can't even find my own thoughts at times anymore.

Your battle will be never ending, self-sacrificing, and you will lose a part of yourself.  I promise you that.  Addicts "still" are addicts even when they are not actively using.  It is not your responsibility to be an example for him; you must understand that you are setting yourself up to fail.

Your love and your willingness to support him is how I have felt; I love my boyfriend to the point where almost more than I love myself...but you know what?  I believe he can get clean, but he has to believe it....and the behavior will always manifest itself.  I don't have the words to tell you.....you sound like a heartfelt beautiful person....but your light is dimming, because you are lighting up someone else.  Who gives you that right?

Listen to me....this is the hardest thing I have ever done....because he has me believing the only thing that is important to him is me....that is not healthy nor right.  I am not the basis for him staying clean.  He is.  You sound like a beautiful person....don't let that wonderful quality be chipped at.  You are "so young" and you need an equal, for all kinds of support....your worth it....and you are not getting it.  Don't do it....Nuge
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Re: the pessimism of my last post on this thread, my attitude and advice to Nudge is based on her significant other's twenty years of cocaine use. I'm not a medical professional and have never claimed to be an expert. But I know what I read by experts. Chronic cocaine use simply burns out the pleasure center in the human brain -- permanently. We all have these pleasure/reward systems in our brains, but one reason people become instantly and hopelessly hooked on that vile poison is that one hit can cause the pleasure/reward center to release 10 to even 100 times the normal amount of dopamine a healthy brain would be releasing as the result of some normal pleasure-giving activity. Take a look at a tomographic (heat) photo of a normal brain's pleasure center next to a photo of the brain of a chronic coke user. One picture is worth a thousand words.
I don't believe narcotic addiction is nearly as hopeless, simply because, as Doc Dan has told us, opiate use by itself does not damage the body or mind. Cat's boyfriend has every chance of recovery and sobriety, followed by a normal life. But I'm not so optimistic about Nudge's. But don't take my word for all of this. I'm an amateur. Consult the experts.

Peace
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thanks for writing. it seems the tables have turned and you  have a better grasp of this now.. and maybe my head is the one that needs clearing up. i hope not.

I have never been one to 'need' a boyfriend or another in life. i've always been kind of a loner. in this way i have been able put our relationship to the side and understand i am not getting all i deserve, nor can i expect to at this point. he has to clean himself up first, then we can get to 'us'.

i am a very picky person when it comes to liking someone. the fact that i would willingly stick by this one tells me something.

sure, i could say 'he is not in any shape for a relationship right now' which in some regards is totally true. i understand a relationship needs to be a two-way street.. but he is my best friend. he gives me what he can. he listens to me. he supports me (in my work, my life). the only thing that comes between us are the effing drugs. and this we are working together on.

what i am hearing mostly is that if the person isn't ready to change, they never will. true.

but my bo is ready to change. that's what he is constantly thinking/talking about - that he wants to better his life. and he's taking the steps to prove it... he got a job, is down to a low dose of methadone/day..

so, what am i missing?  it sounds like you don't believe that an addict (whether recovering, active) can ever be in a relationship.

that makes me sad.  :(

but you are right.. this has been a weight on me. it feels good to talk about it with him (and you all) and when i need to escape, i escape. like you, it has taken it's place in the forefront of my mind, which is very distracting (away from myself).. it's only when i think positively about it that i feel good.

nobody ever said it would be easy.

cat

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I don't know if I am looking at addiction or depression. If it is simply depression, I will respond differently than if it is addiction. If it is heroin addiction, I know I have to step back and let him decide when he is ready to deal with it. I don't want to make the wrong assumption. He says drugs are no longer an issue. How do I know? Casey
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is he always down? or does he get down, then sweaty an agitated, then finds an excuse to "run an errand," then returns home in a completly tranquil, relaxed or even sleepy mood, and suddenly thinks the world isn't such a bad place after all? And then, does the cycle start all over again the next morning? Might be a clue.
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Toxic and Psychotic Effects of Long-Term Cocaine

Cocaine High-Dose Use

Toxic symptoms: anxiety, sleep deprivation, hypervigilance, suspiciousness, paranoia, and persecutory fears (altered perception of reality, and aggressive or homicidal in response to imagined persecution; toxic paranoid psychosis).
Other high-dose, long-term effects: sexual dysfunction, interpersonal conflicts (resulting from sense of isolation/paranoia), severe depressive conditions, dysphoria, and bizarre and violent psychotic disorders (days-weeks) after drug.
Acute toxic dose: ~1-2 mgs/kg...thus, 70-150 mgs of cocaine is a toxic, one-time dose for a 150-pound person....serious physiological toxicity after high doses.
Cardiovascular and neurovascular sequelae: strokes in healthy, young individuals, persistent alterations in blood perfusion of brain, heart oxygen deprivation, cardiac arrhythmias, and seizures.
Chronic cocaine-induced psychiatric syndrome: affective disorders, schizophrenia-like syndromes, personality disorders, etc.
Cocaine addicts personality profiles: reckless, rebellious, and have low tolerance for frustration and craving for excitement.
Cocaine addicts typically abuse opiates and alcohol either to enhance effects of cocaine or to medicate themselves for unwanted side effects: calming jitters, dulling perceptions, and reducing paranoia to indifference.
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Patrick notice good old Tyrosine is mentioned here.
ABSTRACT
Treatment of Cocaine Abuse

Variety of psychological, behavioral, and pharmacological approaches tried with major complications to be overcome, including:
1. Intensity of both drug effect and behavior-reinforcing action of cocaine.
2. Pronounced tendency toward relapse, with cocaine acting as cue to an increased craving for drug.
3. Virtually all cocaine addicts have additional drug dependencies and/or psychiatric disorders, including affective disorders, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, and eating disorders.


Given these complications, needs of cocaine addict are at least 5-fold:
1. immediate abstinence
2. diagnosis of any coexisting disorders
3. determination if addiction is primary disorder or secondary to other disorders
4. maintenance of abstinence for long enough to diagnose and begin treatment of coexisting disorders
5. prevention of relapse


Approaches to treatment are many, from classical "12-step" recovery programs resembling Alcoholics Anonymous to experimental interventions utilizing psychopharmacotherapy, psychotherapy, or cognitive-behavioral approaches.
Abstinence is essential and must be monitored by frequent, random, unannounced urine tests to screen for cocaine and other drugs of abuse.
Gawin and Kleber: 3-phase model of abstinence symptomatology related to cocaine abuse; phases called the crash, withdrawal, and extinction.
Crash phase (9 hrs-4 days); user is generally uninterested in using cocaine, appearing quite depressed and somnolent.
Withdrawal phase (1-10 wks); maximal relapse potential and drug craving.
Extinction phase (unlimited duration) continued monitoring because conditioned cues, which must be extinguished, can still trigger craving and result in relapse.
Psychopharmacotherapy could be used in treating cocaine abuse:
1. to antagonize the effects of cocaine at its receptors
2. to produce an aversive (Antabuse-like) reaction if cocaine is taken
3. to treat the coexisting psychiatric disorder
4. to reduce cocaine craving and withdrawal


To date, no successful specific antagonists are available, nor are any aversive drugs.
Therefore, psychopharmacotherapy aimed at utilizing drugs to attenuate drug craving.
Currently, most popular drug for reducing craving is antidepressant desipramine.
Desipiramine effect can relieve craving and ameliorate withdrawal...effect is not predictable; any positive effects are shortlived, and any coexisting state of major depression, which is found in ~30% of addicts, may be primary object of such treatment.
Other agents include: antiparkinsonian dopamine receptor agonist bromocriptine, the amino acid tyrosine, phenothiazines, (antipsychotics-antidopaminergics), other antidepressants, the mood stabilizer lithium, and the anticonvulsant carbamzepine.


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Pictoral Proof of Brain Damage Caused by Cocaine and Alcohol Seen in New Quantitative EEG Studies

BEAM Study Provides New Light on Brain Disorders

Measurements of "brain waves" using state-of-the-art quantitative electroencephalography (QEEG) -- or brain electrical activity mapping (BEAM) demonstrate that both cocaine and alcohol abuse/dependence significantly worsen such pre-existing brain abnormalities as attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), major depression, mental distress, anxiety disorder, and paranoid schizophrenia, according to medical research by Eric R. Braverman, M.D.*, and Kenneth Blum, Ph.D.**, both affiliated with the PATH Foundation, a not-for-profit scientific foundation, of Princeton, New Jersey. Computer analysis of electroencephalogram (EEG) measurements enabled the researchers to create colorful "maps" of the brain which clearly and dramatically show the damage caused by substance abuse. Moreover, the study -- published in the quarterly issue of Clinical Electroencephalography (October 1996) -- found that the greater the abuse, the greater the measurable brain disturbances.

The current surge in substance abuse

"As the problems of drug abuse and its consequences are the focus of increasing concern in our society, this may be an area in which clinical neurophysiology can beneficially impact a major public health problem," writes Miles E. Drake, Jr., MD, Chief Editor of the official Journal of the American Medical Electroencephalographic Association in an editorial accompanying the article. The QEEG-generated maps of damaged brains are in sharp contrast to those of brains which have not been subjected to either cocaine or alcohol abuse. According to Drs. Braverman and Blum, since they are relatively easy, quick and potentially inexpensive to administer, QEEG or BEAM studies could be used to identify substance abusers and various methods for rehabilitation.

Like an electrocardiogram (EKG), the QEEG procedure is non-invasive and causes no pain or discomfort. Unlike other brain imaging techniques, it can be administered in a doctor's office. Until substance abuse causes catastrophic complications, other brain imaging techniques such as CAT scans, MRI imaging, and neurologic examinations are of limited value in spotting brain damage. "Seeing the damage to their own brain on a BEAM test, combined with early identification of brain abnormalities, could be a powerful communications tool on starting substance abusers on the path towards successful rehabilitation," Dr. Braverman observed.

In this investigation, Drs. Braverman and Blum studied 111 people divided into three groups after extensive testing using a battery of well-validated assessments, several interviews by substance-abuse specialists, review of medical histories, and medical examinations. There were no significant differences among the three groups in terms of gender and mean age.

The control group was comprised of 16 individuals who had not abused alcohol or drugs and were not psychiatrically ill. The next group was made up of 34 psychiatrically ill patients who had not abused alcohol or drugs.

Abuse and dependence

In the third group were 61 psychiatrically ill patients who also suffered from substance abuse disorder -- cocaine and alcohol abuse and/or dependence. Of these 61 patients, 19 (31%) were alcohol abusers; 23 (38%) were alcohol dependent; and 19 (31%) were cocaine dependent [10 patients (16%)] and cocaine abusers [9 (15%)]. None of these patients had used drugs for at least four weeks prior to the BEAM test.

All 111 patients were analyzed using the same QEEG equipment to measure a total of 51 parameters. The BEAM and EEGs were read by independent experts who had no prior knowledge of the subjects' diagnoses. All groups received total brain map analysis.

This study demonstrated that there are increased brain disturbances in substance abusers and dependents which can be identified and measured using the QEEG tools. These disturbances are not found in as great a number of non-substance abusers with similar psychiatric problems. While not all of the 51 parameters of the BEAM revealed significant differences among the three groups, many were specific for brain abnormalities in non-substance-abusing psychiatric patients and in the substance-abusers. The drug abusing group had the greatest number of total brain abnormalities. Moreover, increasing abnormalities were observed in the more severe substance abuser/dependents compared to the normal controls.

The colors of brain damage

Comparing brain maps from each of the three groups demonstrates the significant differences among them. In a typical normal subject, the brain appears consistently dark blue-black in color, indicating stable brain activity and, probably, normal brain metabolism. In a depressed patient who is not a substance-abuser, the right frontal temporal portion of the brain appears bright white-blue. This abnormality is typical of individuals with depression, which is characterized by mood swings, fatigue, anxiety, and stress.

In the substance-abusing depressed patient, both frontal temporal portions of the brain appear bright white-blue. This brain map is also commonly seen in substance-abusing patients with a history of violence. Major depression accompanied by substance abuse not only produces the most severe brain abnormalities, but is also associated with an extremely high rate of suicide.

Other work by Drs. Braverman and Blum, as well as by other researchers, suggests that a mentally ill population -- including teens and adults -- have strongly disturbed brain waves even prior to their substance abuse. This study again documents that the mentally ill population have brain electrical and chemical imbalances. At the same time, other researchers have also reported that when substance-abusers stop using the drugs, some of the brain damage may be permanent and is similar in pattern to that which is found in many Alzheimer's patients.

Genetics and brain mapping

Additionally, Drs. Blum and Braverman are pioneers in the field of pharmacogenetics -- the study of the effects of genetic factors on individual responses to drugs and alcohol. Presently, they are investigating the link between genetics and BEAM. It is anticipated that this work will help answer further questions about the relationship between heredity and drug abuse.

But even without further research, the authors suggest that "since cocaine and alcohol abuse/dependence clearly exacerbates electrophysiological brain abnormalities in psychiatrically ill patients...young people provided with this information should increase their perceived risks of dependence on alcohol, cocaine, and probably other psychoactive chemicals." Perhaps, the scientists speculate, "if young people can see that drug abuse really can 'fry' their brains, they won't jump into that destructive lifestyle. Maybe we can stem the plague."

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I'm Nuge...thank you Spook, you answered what I was looking for.  I guess for me though, it still comes down to the basics....I have never used any illegal substance, never even been around it.  This was my high school sweetheart and meeting again after 20 years, even though he TOLD me all about his drug use, I had no idea of the consequences or how it would affect me..."me".  I sometimes feel so selfish, because I simply do not want to deal with all of this and frankly sometimes I just can't....after 20 years of that use, and what I am learning here and everywhere, I simply have to decide this is what he is.....and will I support him and deal with it or not.  I don't see a very clear future at this point, because everything you wrote and you all wrote is so very painfully true.  It is always about him....everything...I do not get the support I feel I need.  I know it is a disease, but I can't detach from that at this point and love the person within, because I don't see that person at hardly any level that the disease hasn't affected.

As I said, I'm growing....and realizing that I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM....but it hurts...so much.  I appreciate all the comments by the former addicts and their honesty...and feel terrible that I am a person that cannot deal with one...but I do believe, heartfelt, that the addict has to make the first step to as full a recovery as they can, they will get support they then need, but it is not up to me to make his first step. I had always thought once they stop using, it was a done deal.  Boy have I been slammed down to earth in a reality cloud.  I'm going to be o.k., I almost feel like what I have learned, is forcing me to make an earlier choice.  I'm rambling, but I have so much going through my head.  My father is an alcoholic, maybe that is why I feel like I can change everything....I don't know.  But thank you.  Besides my boyfriend does need the honesty from me that I will not deal with this ****....him believing I will is not fair to him...talk about me enabling.

Thank you all again.
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I am primarorily interested in and with the enteopathetic falicity with that your extrotential "will" being perpetuates,I want you to realize that no amount of LOVE can cure his problems,love is a *****/******* of a thing,it is BLIND,the source does not matter, it does blindly depend upon the object of love ,rather the source of the object of love,If you could dissolve the threads of love would you be judged feable -NO,enlightened is what you will become,love yourself,but do not play mind games with a lost Alcoholic?cocaine long term user,because their brain chemistry has `permanently` changed,find yourself someone else to love,first ans CRITICAL to self development is self love and you substitute and deviate him from this path, and path in every attempt you make to help him ,Be strong let go and learn to love another.I did ,god understood.
He will get help (maybe?no guarantees))from professionals eventually.
currently their is NOW cure>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<?????Love What love is. Not what love is not.
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dear nuge,

In no way should you feel bad for not wanting to further a relationship that might take years or a lifetime to rebuild.

If let's say a year from now my guy was still on the methadone program. Didn't have a job. Didn't have an interest. Still dependent and still bullshitting about 'things are going to change', my view of him by then (i hope) would have changed. And I would have to leave, feeling just as bad as you do now.

The situation is a shame, but it is not a shame directed at anything other than the substance that put him there. Don't feel ashamed of needing to take a step back out of the very dark room the relationship has put you in. Speak truthfully to him. This is "about him," not you.

I am also the type who wants to help and heal the world. So it's hard to let someone that you know could be so much more, be so much less. And allow that. That's one of the hardest things about knowing an addict.

You've given so much to him already. It's your time now.

cat


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If I only had a girlfriend or wife to dedicate themselves to "MY" problems, god only knows what or who I would have become???????????????/they left me and I reached a point of total personality disintergration,and thought seriously about suicide,but something really wierd happened as I was left to deal with MY own problems ,number one God manifested and stopped me from suicide and I learn`t to deal with  MY life on my own and to not only want love but desterately wanted to give it to somebody else,this person I have not found yet.(But I am still happy)
We are all different,maybe you boyfriends will kill themselves if you leave them,who knows?
For me it was the real start of my personal growth,I went through hell on my own and understand that the problems laid inside of me and if anybody was to help it would diminish my independence,I made it through it all and can now love others and are glad they left me.Romantic love is blind and selfish and childish,wait until you have children Love of that kind can endure for life,I want you 2 to be happy but remember to be strong,this is your life what is this addiction you have to your partners?,it is called "romantic" Love and it NEVER lastes,I am a wise old man,woman will not use me for sex anymore yet I am infinitly more loving than their current boyfriends,Romantic love is **** find your self a REAL MAN who will protect and love you unconditionally,these junkies are sexually attractive you are going to go a round with the devil reincarnate,you are looking in the wrong place for the right thing,I hope one day you will find a REAL LOVING CARING SENITIVE CONPASSIONATE MAN like me, one day, and have a a blissfull life.And many Children.
Gos bless you tormented souls.
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What a kind compassionate soul you are.....I have been reading various comments by others and to others by you....

Am I happy?  That is kind of a generalized question, but believe me .... I make my choices, and I live by them, whether I like it or not.  But, I do have the power to change by making different choices.....I sometimes really believe this situation I am in (at this point yes.....by my own choice) is personal growth for me.....I have realized through counseling, Al Anon and the many many comments that I am a codependent person, whom sometimes I think just has to have my life in kaos or something to feel wanted and needed.  I have a daughter (25) and I can see the similarities in the way I deal with her and the way I have dealt with my alcoholic father throughout my life.

but you know what?  I turn my life over to God and then when I think He is not doing a good enough job, or I don't understand or he is not doing things the way I think or whatever, I pull it back.  I feel like a dark shape or cloud is lifting from me....slowly.....I too have to learn to deal with my own life and my own problems....I have been so involved with this boyfriend's problems.....I was believing they were my own.

It kind of pissed me off that you said "tormented souls".....do you know what tormented means....--definition:  extreme pain and/or anguish of body and mind, a source of vexation and pain; and TO CAUSE SEVERE SUFFERING OF BODY AND MIND.  I am responsible for my "torment", inner and outer, emotionally, physically, etc., whatever.....my torment comes from loving a person who has a disease, an addict, an alcoholic,,,,,,but i have received something in return.  Do I want to make a life commitment to this?  No?  Will I?  No, I too am worth as much or more than I have to give to someone else.  Support emotionally and physically to me makes me stronger to return same on a mutually pervasive path.....someone will be very fortunate as I.

Something else I have received....the anguish that addicts must go through...yes their families, friends, loved ones etc......but I feel their pain.  But, I will not become a part of it.

I feel like going out and dancing and/or singing and or just raising my head in prayer.......torment?  maybe the feeling of someone' elses that I love, but not my own.  Selfish?  I think not.  Thank you Spook.
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RE: you 4/5 post, My husband used to do that very same thing when he was smoking pot.  I knew all of the little tricks.  How about this one...."I need to go up in the attic and check on something."  LMAO....oh man, I'm so glad I can laugh about it now.  I was furious back then.
He never wanted to run errands for me.  Oh, low and behold, during that time he woulda went to the moon and back.  When he returned, he was happy as a lark.  Suddenly I was the object of his affection.  
Why can't we just be this way all the time.  It's a crying shame we have to "DO" chemicals to feel that way.  Another thing, he used to get so angry and lash out at times, and I knew he was either running out or couldn't get some more.  I am so glad those days are over now.  My son is 12 now, it was time to end all of that.

Annie
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It sounds as if you are much more self independent than I initialy thought,First off I do not consider you co-dependant,I see you Mothering you husband,I see that you really love him I see that you will try to help him,and most important,I see an immense power that will allow you you turn your back on his problems,and move on,when you reach the end of the road and when especially if he starts blaming you for for them.
god intended us to love and many are in need of it,you will give until their is nothing left to give and then you will move on,knowing proudly you loved him and did your best,you will,meet another man and your life will change in way you never thought possible.if only more people where like you this world would be a paradise.
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Sorry to jump in this thread which I have read but left alone because I have no experience or qualifications to share here... but the word co-dependent really pisses me off and I'm glad Spook de-bunked that one. I was called co-dependent by every addiction counselor that ever did an intake or family history on my daughter... and because I continued to keep her at home instead of toss her into the street to hit bottom I was the co-dependent mother. I would also have been the one to bury her and grieve forever. I realize that a relationship with a child is quite different from that of a man and woman with drugs completing the love triangle... you cannot divorce a child. I guess I just wanted to say that we do not have to be labeled for choices we make out of love for someone else or because we want to hope for the best. And Spook.. the love you are looking for is the most superlative... unconditional...... and it's nearly impossible for anyone but a parent... or God .. to love that way...and when someone's life is ruined because of a partner's addiction the concept of unconditional love is still possible.. but to love someone does not mean we can or should stay with them. I would recommend for anyone in a relationship with an addict who is disrupting their life to offer them up for healing to the divine physician and continue to support them in all their honest efforts to change but not to live in the same space with them until they are into spiritual development and can give back to you what you deserve also. Unfortunately, by then they may have found another or simply found peace on their own and unwilling to trust for a long time.. if ever.

Love, Brighty
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I did not mean YOU are tormented ,HE is and because of the empathy of LOVE(many types) you feel his torment but you really are a free agent,live and learn from trying to help him but remember sometimes the best way to love somebody is to leave them to face thrir OWN problems.
You are welcome to to join our Global Unity System,we have scanned your consciousness and would be happy to have you ONBOARD.we will be in touch,even in your dreams.
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The co-dependency thing`y`.?/

Lets look at it number one(1) the words used {CO-"dependant"}(basically they think indepenence is all imortant)if you did not give your high intelligence and love to your daugher(things you did not learn in a book,but from REAL LIFE) unlike the poor misguided souls that study at University for 5 years and come out of of it a non human just a walking text book able to recite things and  remember them but without ever?/never! really experienced them nor do they even understand on a HUMAN level co=dependency.
  You keep up your fight for what you believe is RIGHT ,trust yourself and maybe one day we/you can help the Psychiatrists,Psychologist/social workers,etc,etc,etc back to a sense of humanity and love and PEACE,it is early days yet everthing T/WHAT we write is analysed by these people keep expessing your views  and one day even beforev the 2012(take over) the world will be a much beter place,because of absolute Angels like your.
You will have Administrative privaledges.
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You said it so well,  the co-dependence issue, I get really pissed when I hear that as well, my mom like you was labeled co-dependant for the same reason as you, she didn't throw me out on the streets, she stuck with me, supported me and even went to meetings with me. She was my mom and she loved me, what mom's should do..there is no love like that of a mom, I have learned that since the day my children were born, and yes since the day my mother died.  I have not been loved that way since her death, oh, my husband loves my, my kids love me, but I felt the "maternal love" unconditional, no matter what...when I looked at her face I felt it and the day before she died, as my mom laid on her death bed, gripping my hand as tight as she could, as weak as she was, she told me how much she loved me and how I had to promise her I would be ok.. you are right, only a mom or God can love that way.....love, cindi
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And you know what ??? I feel that my mom is the only person who loves ME that way... and that's a big statement because my husband would lay down his life for us. You know we sometimes have to become mothers to understand our own mothers. Your mother will NEVER abandon you... she is an immortal angel now and can love you even better.. it will take a long while for you to feel ok with this but communicate with her and it will happen. Love, Brighty
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Grazie ! You may wish to see my post to JB and Thomas in the "were is bup" thread above on today's date. I make reference to those very same people.... seem's we are innundated with them.

Love, Brighty
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Uh ??? What is happening in 2012 ?? Who are they who are reading what is written.... and where are they NOW ??? Thank you for telling me I will have Administrative Priveleges... it is very flattering and certainly comforting in light of such a scary proposition.. at least I won't be somewhere on the bottom of the food chain... but how do you know this anyway ??? How will we/I know they are arriving ??? And where on earth did you get this date anyway ???? SPOOK.. do I have to be a believer to benefit... or will it be good enought that I stay true to my values even if I don't believe a word of this ????

You know, it reminds me a bit of all those fundamentalist type religions of which there are so many names I can't identify them ... (I remember growing up you were either a Catholic, Protestant or a Jew).... and these religious prophets always have a date when it's all going to happen... the end... but the problem is that no matter how good a life you lived they say you won't be saved if you don't BELIEVE.... Gee... no room for human frailty there.

I am wondering if God really cares what we BELIEVE... as long as we DO what we are called to do... I mean does HE care what I really think of Jonah in that whale belly or does He simply care that I am involved in ministry to the poor or those with AIDS ???  

So that's my question about whoever it is that you say are coming !!! BTW, this is very much about addiction medicine... if I hadn't had concerns about addiction I wouldn't be on this board writing this tonight. :-))

Love, Brighty
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There is some commonality to at least the timeframe that the spooky one refers to and some of the more esoteric brain trusts out there. It seems that from even purely an astrological standpoint that there is a "potential" for some rather extraordinary events. Akashic records aside - there is always room for another slip in the frabic - remember it's all about potentials. Quantum physics is about to set the previously understood "laws" on their collective ear - once again, and spiritual revelation can't be far behind - tsall connected dude... We may even discover that our real daddy has a flying saucer and may more resemble a lizard than an ape - yikes
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That is right Quantum Physicists and Neurologists,etc,etc,are going to make a machine that can communicate with consciousness,it has been said by many intuative Philosophic Physicists that the date will be 2012,this date is also based upon mathematics on which they rely heavily,I already have access to the collective consciousness,however I do not want to be seen as a freek,so I will wait until if and when they do it with a man made machine,I think we best leave this alone for now,as if successful do you want your "self" stored or manipulated on a sub-nanotechnological platform after your PHYSICAL death,and worse than cloning this will enable eternal life in a non physical state.
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A machine doesn't seem quite the superlative... and would this be considered an actual application of quantum physics rather than just a principle of it ?? And whose consciousness are they planning on communicating with ?? Gee should I ask if they have permission also ????????  And what is their purpose?? Simply research and knowledge expansion or ultimately control.. and why would I even ask... ?? Hey, are these brain trusts in coohoots with the CIA... or I guess they are so superior in intelligence, and not being flip, as it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get into the CIA...these guys can be dangerous beyond any paradigm we can even imagine. I suppose they don't have anyone smarter than themselves to regulate them.... are they a benign group or like anything else, a mixed bag ??

Now about the belief I have harbored about Jesus being a master of quantum physics.... isn't His work... the little that is recorded ... much more superlative than that of these zany brainys needing a machine ??
And since you have access to this collective knowledge, are you saying that you have natural access to collective knowledge and would not need a machine or do you have access to the knowledge ABOUT this machine project ??

Don't you already believe that there is non-physical eternal life... however, many of us believe it is after death.... are you saying that they put you in this state before physical expiration?? And you make it sound like a choice... do I want to be stored or manipulated, is it one or the other???or was that what they do.. store and mainpulate.. and what is a subnanotechnological platform ????? What if I just want to die and go to heaven ???

Love, Brighty

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We all share the same Consciousness,we are all one,what makes me and you appear as 2 separate entities in space and (time?) is our minds primitive "awareness",this annililates the prospect of having a `personal` "soul" to place in Gods,trust once the mortal body/brain is deceased.
This machine should be able to interact with the very structure of Consciousness,it may be used to view remotely by its creators your life through your eyes and ears,in effect spy on you,it could be refined to facilitate insertion of thought or emotion into your mind via the soul(consciousness).It could be used for good or evil,it may become a necessity for human survival.Who knows? would you trust humans with such a machine?
How could we fight them,when they have total control over us?
I do not know who they are,if they are Government or what,I have learnt of it from following developments in Quantum Mechanics and Neurology and nanotechnology.
Maybe It is alien technology that fell into the wrong hands,Roswell,The Crash Itself, the debris recovery, and the Military's coverup and denial.


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"And since you have access to this collective knowledge, are you saying that you have natural access to collective knowledge and would not need a machine or do you have access to the knowledge ABOUT this machine project"

They are both one and the same question,if you got access to the collective the answer is yes and yes.
BUT In our normal perception of reality I do not have REAL knowledge or access to the place of construction of the machine.
although rumours abound.

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That is a most difficult concept .... that because of our primitive awareness... and on that I agree... that I do not have a personal soul... I know that I do, although I cannot tell you exactly how I know.. and even as I espouse connectedness quite fully... I do believe that there is a differential aspect. I will probably require much more development than I can acquire in a lifetime to present this but indeed the soul seems to have a most distinct quality... and i think it's that very thing that unites us and still distinguishes us. I do not believe it's the obvious smallness of my human consciousness that wants me to believe this... it is the greater consciousness that assures me.

Love, Brighty
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and so I separated myself from myself in order to "EXPERIENCE"
myself.
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http://www.asktom-naturally.com/naturally/brain.html

The one issue that I have with the 12 step programs is the "belief system" it requires. I've stated before that I'm grateful for it's existence - it has helped so many including my mom and oldest son. Dogma is a ****** though because it doesn't allow much room for interpretation. One of my best friends used coke pretty much daily for 17 years and only quit because it enlarged and wore his heart out - had to get a pacemaker. His doc is also a freind of his and treated him extensively with amino acids (see address above)diet and exercise. He is the biggest nut - always was and has been clean as a whistle for 10 years. He has more zest for life than most 3 people you'll meet. He made the decision to walk away from that **** and never looked back. I know all that stuff about the pleasure center being destroyed but I also know two people that were supposed to have died according to modern medicine and are very much alive. Miracles happen constantly and the human body is an incredible invention capable of astounding recovery when given half a chance. Nuge - you know what the gig is with your fellow but I also think Cat is a very capable young woman who has her sights steady and eyes clear and I don't think she is man dependent - just doesn't have any of the earmarks. We make our choices and take the ride but the world would be a much poorer place if just because someone has a dependency we bailed on them. I lost a girlfriend because of my stuff and to be honest I'm glad - found out just what she was made of. I'm still closer to her children than she is. I've known a lot of dope fiends in my life and I've known a lot of assholes. You can stop taking dope and acting as an addict to a major extent, but it must damn near impossible to stop being an ******* because the ones I've identified are still assholes. I wish the best for everyone here and was just souding off..
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We may have a communication problem here so here are my definitions from my book.I believe that what you are refering to is "spirit",whereas "soul"has another meaning to me,we all have a unique spirit,but until you open the door of perception and walk into the clear light,you cannot find your soul

LUKE. G. EDWARD.

INTRODUCTION

Can one percieve the entirety of an object, that which, themselves are only a tiny component of ?.
  The Omniety,God, Krsna,Allah or any other name one refers to as their Deity of worship is possibly composed of all the particles in this Universe,especially,the as yet undiscovered particles that compose Space itself (Wheeler refered to them as Pre-Geometry).As mere Humans we must be composed of a limited and negligable number in comparison to the Deity.
  In order to percieve of God,I believe one must use their Consciousness`s most refined and Pure(emotionally unadulterated) form of its human manifestation,which I shall call our "Soul"throughout this Book.
  The term Spiritual or Spirit I shall consider our most precious Human emotional experience of  the expanded conscious state,that can, as mentioned be distilled to the level of  emotionless Soul.
  In order to percieve of ones Deity they must shut down consciouness to the purity and level of the  Soul and use its Ultra-sub-particle Quantum Energy Matrix of structure(pre-geometry) and the net collective effects of its attractive gravitational forces to interact with the larger all pervasive structure that permiates this entire Universe and in this book I shall refer to this All pervasive structural  consciousness as God,the Super Soul,
  Cosmic Consciousness as the state of intersection of the soul with God and the Universe.
  Collective Consciousness will be considered a similar communication but done between humans and also existing in perpetualty on its own accord,whether or not one taps into it or is conscious of it.
  Awareness will be differentiated from consciousness in that is requires the Neurological Structures of Organisation of the brain/mind as well as some consciousness to exist and will also be considered the "Normal" state of mind typified by having a  Subconsciousness.
This allows for awareness of being Conscious and consciousness of being aware.
  Ego will be considered as an emotive and Intellectual manifestation of the "Normal" state of mind,and referred to as the "False Self"in this Book,The persons "Identity" in their unenlightened state.
  Unenlightened are those essentially Egocentric Humans complete with subconsciousness whose consciousness is dislocated or blocked from its source (the Soul) as it has not yet been expanded and eventually by repetetive expansion,learned how to  remove the blockade and programing of society.
  The "Normal" state of mind will be considered a natural reponse to its environment and not a disease,although the Cosmic/soul-conscious mind will be considered Superior.Even an semi-egoless expanded semi-deprogrammed mind is superior,for reasons that will be explained in chapter 2.
Enlighened as being anything other than "Normal".
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Brighty I think the elves(aliens) told me,but I found a site so I am amazed that my intuition may have reality basis.
<a href="http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/index.htm" target="_new">2012</a>.


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the fact that they've already decread a date for its birth, 2012, makes me highly suspicious. Sounds more mystical than scientific. Like, "the alignment of these planets heralds the return of Elvis." I must admit the prospect of such a machine and the limitless evil it no doubt would be used for makes me want to disbelieve.
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dude - I'm thinking magiK - A.C. style It's funny - as in ironic not belly laygh funny but even the most watered down middle of the road astrologers and psychics are freaked about the timeline. Most of the ones I'm refering to don't have a clue about the Mayan thing either. I'm stoked because it's gonna be a hell of pressure point by the time it get's here.
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did you ever see the film, "The Full Monty?" If you have, then you know that gnomes are the ones to be feared. Elves are nothing compared to lawn gnomes.
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OK,the machine is being designed by secret societies(military?),that rule our world,they destroyed the Mayan temples and hid many manuscripts of sacred knowledge,the members of these secret societies have ruled this planet for 10`s of thousands of years and now fear the end of the Mayan Calender will bring about cosmological events leading to a Awakening of humanities consciousness and exposure of their deceit and control.

=================================================================This is the Phil Schneider story
He is a geologist and explosives expert. 17 years in government black projects.Has level 1 security clearance (Rhyolite 38)
Has worked at Area 51, S-4 and Los Alamos.
He is one of only 3 survivors from the infamous Alien/Human war at Dulce, New Mexico and Los Alamos undergrounds in August 1979. 66 government workers and agents were killed. Others survivors locked in hospitals.
Since the video lecture (mentioned below) Phil Schneider died in his home in suspicious circumstances.
Prior to this, he has had 11 attemps on his life.

In a video lecture he makes the following points:
-Alien metals are used in our modern military aircraft and helicopters.
-The military have known about the aliens since 1909. Army calvary found alien greys in caves in New Mexico in 1909. -The US black budget is over 500 billion dollars per year! This 28% of the Gross National Product! The black budget is illegal and an act of treason.
-There are 131 active deep underground military bases in the US.
-There are 1477 bases world wide. Average cost is 19 billion dollars.Can be built at the rate of 2 per year using space age technology.
-Magneto leviton high speed underground trains connect all the bases in the US.It also circles the whole globe.Capable of speeds of Mac 2. Al Bielek (Montauk/Philadelphia Experiments) has travelled on one.
-They use charged particle beam weapons (not lasers anymore), computer enhanced imaging radar, satellite infrared technology which can see a 5 cent coin on the ground.
-The are 18,000 workers at Groom Lake (Area 51, S-4, S2). Here there are 9 undergroundmilitary bases (over 4 cubic miles!). This is a "mega" underground base.
-Boring machines literally melt the rock with lasers.No concrete used.
-During extensions to the underground biological laboratory at Dulce/Los Alamos he was shot with a laser by a 7 foot grey alien. This opened up his chest and melted his fingers.He was saved by a Green Beret soldier.Later 66 soldier lost their lives in an underground war.
-The US military have been lying to the US Senate since 1947 (Roswell incident). This is illegal.Treason! -The US military and the German Nazi have had flying saucers since 1933.
-Phil showed a metal used secretly by the military on craft that when combined with alien technology can withstand 10 million degrees temperature Fahrenheit and is impregnable withstanding particle beam weapons. -There are over 140 elements in the true Periodic Table.(not 102 as generally acknowledged by regular science). -The alien agenda (Negatives) is the complete take over of this planet by the year 2029. The killing off of 5/6th of the world's population. The NWO and the alien agenda is the same thing.
-There are 9 races (negatives?) on Earth at present. They get high (like cocaine) from the secretions of our adrenial glands.This may be reason for the missing 100,000 children in the USA.
-Half of the 131 underground bases in the USA are actual cities for the negative aliens.
-The underground bases are being used to set up an alien/NWO take over.

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<a href="http://www.2012.com.au/Site.A.html" target="_new">Code word 2012?</a>.

OKLAHOMA CITY "BOMBING"

On 19th. April 1995, at a few minutes after 9.00 am, Oklahoma City was blasted by the "terrorist bombing" of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. One hundred and sixty eight men, women and children were killed, and hundreds more were maimed or injured in this callous attack. The building was nearly totally destroyed by the explosion, whilst severe damage was inflicted on adjacent buildings, petering out at about a one-mile radius from ground zero.

This event was soon blamed upon a "right-wing militia group" composed of ex-Gulf War veterans utilising an ANFO bomb composed of from two to five tonnes of ammonium nitrate and Diesel fuel-oil set up in a hire truck parked in front of the target building. A robotic Timothy McVeigh was recently convicted of the OKC "bombing", and his alleged accomplice Terry Nichols awaits his trial (which is about to commence as this article goes to press).

On the day of the event, I, like many others, watched the CNN TV feed of the Oklahoma scene. Intriguingly, there were early reports of missiles being seen coming down vertically into the building, but these reports never resurfaced. A survivor with blood over his face was interviewed about one hour into the rescue effort. He described how his life had been saved by his previous domicile in California. When the Murrah Building began to shake violently he recognised an earthquake, just like those he had experienced in California, so he dived under his fifth-floor desk. Some five-to-ten seconds later, a huge explosion demolished the building around him, but the desk saved his life.

Then came reports that more bombs had been found, and a utility truck with a small armoured bomb box in its tray was shown, whilst the FBI's radio delivered a conversation alleging large drums of mercury fulminate explosive had been found attached to building support pillars next to the lift shaft.

I became agitated, since I had never heard of earthquake-type effects hitting a building before a bomb went off, and I knew mercury fulminate to be an extremely unstable explosive and very unlikely to have survived a major explosion. Also, the size of explosive drum reported then and later photographed would have been far too large to fit in the armoured bomb box that reportedly drove away with these dangerous prizes.

Explosives experts in Australia, the UK and USA (e.g., the General Partin report) began to question the nature of the damage at OKC. The gist of their theses is that low-velocity explosives like ANFO cannot have demolished so many support pillars in the strange pattern seen at OKC, since the blast pressure falls off according to the inverse cube distance law
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check out my site
www.ephedrineaddiction.homestead.com
A person who is an addict is the only person who can help themselves others around them can make it easier by being supportative ,however they have to do this on their own!
Dona
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Holy ****! Maybe little elves did it! They might of had the knowledge to slip into the building undetected and plant the explosives....those little bastards!       c h a d
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http://www.sathyasai-se.org/

The site isn't very sophistaced - and the deeper you go with this  - if you should decide to you will find a theme with Sai Baba. He doesn't go out of his way to impress at scale. What he does is build a solid foundation slowly but surely and holy. A dear lady friend of mine that is a wonderful family counselor and ex-girlfriend turned me onto Sai. She runs a chapter for the US Sai org in Portland and goes to India to visit. She has seen the "calling cards" - manifestations etc. in person. I've read the core of the books written about him - most of them by his early followers some of whom are Psychiatrists and so on. One of my favorites is I think called  - A Christmas Discourse - it's about Jesus and the Bible and confirms many of my suspicions about both. It really cleared a bunch of negative bullshit I carried ( and knew I did) about Jesus as a result of growing up where I did and listeneing to the common **** that people do with his works. Anyway hope yer well. Oh - one thing I remember when I first began my investigation of Sai was that someone asked him why he was incarnating (there is a trilogy incarnation and he is the second)- without blinking he said "to stop the thermonuclear fires". He speaks directly to the level of the being he is dealing with - no more and no less.
Love
DS
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SOME OF THE ROLES THE EGO PLAYS


THE VICTIM

is someone who feels ashamed of themselves. He is very needy of other people and asks constantly for their advice and does not take it. He will often complain but will not take any action. Often heard telling hard luck stories containing phaes like "It's not fair, "You're so lucky. Those who try to help are left feeling frastrated, helpless and impotent. Frequently play the "yes-but" game with those who offer suggestions of assistance.



THE RESCUER
is someone who is motivated by guilt with a great difficulty in saying no. As he wishes to have everything around him harmonious he seeks to attend to the needs of others but deprives them of the opportunity to help themselves. The rescuer needs to be needed and is seen as virtuous and kind. Always appearing strong he will feel taken for granted. Rescuers and victims attract each other strongly.



THE PERSECUTER
is someone who is motivated by anger. He puts out the message "Go away, I don't need You!" i.e. the opposite to the rescuer. His isolated, critical and aggressive stance is but a wall of protection around his vulnerable nature. The world appear as black and white to him - "PuII yourself together!" would be the advice he might offer a victim. He believes that through attack he will get what he wants.



The ego's plan for salvation centers around holding grievances. It maintains that, if someone else spoke or acted differently, if some external circumstance or event were changed, you would be saved. Thus, the source of salvation is constantly perceived as outside yourself. Each grievance you hold is a declaration, and an assertion in which you believe, that says, "If this were different, I would be saved". The change of mind necessary for salvation is thus demanded of everyone and everthing except yourself.

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spookster re: EGO roles as apposed to california rolls - for someone who delights in being verbose and abstract in the extreme you sure as hell are succinct when you wanna be. That was beautiful. Bright one. As I'm a "silicon valley" silicon "boy" :) I though I would attempt (this is risky any time spook is in on the deal :) an answer to some of your questions - I suggest these sites to form your own definition for nanotech stuff. .http://www.hedweb.com/http:// www.zyvex.com/nano/
These are basically devoted to the positive side of technological advancement and promise. It doesn't take a quantum mechanic to see that it can and probably will be used by the dark T-shirts as well. Spook has actually addressed most of your questions somewhere on the site here but it was spread out over several days / questions etc., so I'll do my best. Materialism - this is the basis for both the perceived need and indeed the manifestion of a "machine" that will do what we are all born with the capacity to do. the entities with an investment in control would obviously relish something so powerful. It's possible existence is quite real. There is a "shop" in San Jose Ca - the heart of silicon valley - run by a very nice young American/Chinese engineer that is a captal funding outfit for the CIA. It's quite overt and they make no bones about the fact that they want all the coolest toys first. You have to remember that there are a bunch of good intentioned citizens in just about any group out there CIA included. Because this country is so rich and so wide open the need for technolgy to monitor threats is very real - like anything else tho it can be used for more sinister purposes. It's quite easy to typecast any guvament org as dark. Reality is just not so. So again we have the "potential" for exploitation and abuse - not an edict. Technology is accelerating at an almost geometric rate now and is really just getting started. Every decade or so we have busted through a threshold that was governed by "physical science" that has changed dramatically. I'll propose an anology. Remember the 8mm cameras that not to long ago were the staple of family vacavtion films? Ever watch streaming video on a high powered computer - 1.2 mb processor and a shitload of ram? If not, it's like riding an OLD bike to the airport and climbing for a ride in an F-18 hornet. That whole "the future is here" thing - believe it.. There are entire new technologies based on manipulated DNA and nanotechnology - wherein living cellular structures are "programmed" for specific tasks and "self learning" and much of it has spawned out of medical research - think about that knowing what you do about AMA and the Pharmacy business.
Several years ago I spent about three hours on a plane next to a researcher from UCLA. He was part of a team that was mapping voice recognition patterns in the human brain to develop models for ostensibly benign and consumer friendly things such as software so you can tell you car/cell phone whom to call and have your computer pull up a file while you do the dishes. Once again - potentials  :) The ghost in the machine - there is documented evidence that the  - animation body - or what you think of as the non-physical and eternal life force, can be and may actually be more of a director and is not necessarily "in" the physical body, at least not all the time. Regarding heaven : we all get to die Brighty that's a given. The fact that we die and "just go to heaven" sounds a lot like my mother saying jesus has saved her. He may have saved her but I don't think it's mechanism is quite how she perceives it. I strongly suspect that we most likely - relatively speaking - end up at the same frequency once we discard this mortal coil. Word up - do the work here and now because no one that I've come across really knows. Even though there is commanality in life after death scenarios - there is also much disparity, suggesting to me, that much like human experience incarnate - what takes place on the other side may be unique for all of us..
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Very nice post,I am looking at the sites now,it is good to oscillate in constructive harmonic resonance.Just watch out for Schrodingers cat on the pathway to enlightenment.It more of a tiger really.
<a href="http://www.2think.org/quantum.shtml"_new">Milk for the mind</a>.

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The tricky part is knowing how much to let slack and how much to tug.

a little metaphor for the afternoon..

when a person's down and they have to stand on their own, and you've got a rope tied around their waste, it's very hard to not have the urge to yank it as quickly as you can, hoping the person will just spring up to their feet and all will be well. but you know in reality if one were to do it this way, the person would simply drag along the ground, unable to get their own balance in such a quick amount of time.

this desire for a quick turn around is what plagues those people who are in love with addicts, parents of addicts, anyone involved in the addict's recovery process. Patience is a very difficult thing to achieve when you can't tell for sure what the person's balance is, or what they feel their footing to be. No one can tell except the person themself.

But it's this 'quick fix' desire that the addict wants also. When they were using, the drug was their rope. That's why so many relapse, because the withdrawal effects come slowly and painfully, and they want to   b o u n c e   up!

So hang in there, anyone holding a rope. Just don't get burned. It's kind of a paranoid feeling also, that i've had sometimes.. that when my guy springs up finally, will i fall down in the momentum and not know how to handle him 'problem free'

what a crazy thought.   but real also.   cat
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Well this is the way I see it.
<p><center><img src=http://www.hedweb.com/animimag/elepbaby.jpg  </a></center>
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you crack me up.

although, spook, you have a baby elephant and a mother elephant. if she left him at this point, he would die.

but with enough time and what, grass?, he will grow..

i watch the nature channel too, you know.

:) cat
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Luke - Thanks for the compliment and the site(s) you post, I gotta have that book and now!
Cat - the comment about what to do with yourself once your partner gets it together was not lost on me. My mother and stepfather almost split up after almost 20 years together because she cleaned up from her valium binge of about a quarter of a century. Poor fellow was lost without her to take care of and had to deal with more "normal" releationship problems. It most definately is a very real issue and I would supect that the length of time together could work either way in terms of being an asset or liability. Hope you are all good. PS - spook - now I think I know where all our electicity is going here in CA. I'll bet they had a reactor go down at groom and diverted our juice! :)
D
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cool
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I have a whole bood on gnomes.....cute little critters....
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Sorry, I meant book, and SPOOKY LUKEY  Ok young man,   I have been sending you e-mail and the Mailerdemon has been sending it back   wuzzup????????? Have a Happy EASTER    Love the Easter Bunny ;)
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I do not know if you are following this thread,but since I tried to get a Hotmail email account(gave up as limitations on username password etc,really pissed me off :"spook2345645", sorry try "1qw3dfgj6jfcjj3488xkmremcxkl",that is available and REAL easy to remember,****!!!.
Please try again as I think everthing is alright(sure ting:tingly sort of feeling!),although I am concerned ,as I sent an email from ***@**** to a friend in Japan and it came back like a bunch of lies saying:-("hello,I am Robert your friend and want to talk to you but first you must get a Hotmail account),like I know this is not what he would say,and I have sent him emails before and recieved them back from him to above address.I think Microsoft has knickers in a knot because my secret question was real hard to guess"what is my real name?",implying ?I gave a false name to sign up information,but the answer was "None of your business" of cousre I did not provide any REAL details of whom I thought meant to be in the appplication,now they like playing games or what,maybe when I gave their secret message security a once over I used known active hotmail addresses,and know active passwords,now they are trying to intercept my email and and and..........., Probably just the attachment on the email it was pretty heavy ANIME
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Ok,  I just became concerned....I am going to try the upnaway again and see what happens, then I have an attachment to send
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the e-mail address is not working still......do you have another one?
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No,I am not trusting Hotmail,they are trying to suss me out,so I will have ***@**** open for "windows"(ie when poss)

Did you ever see that program on TV where a Phone/communications company Triangulated to source a transmition to an ISP from a mobile phone and ET`s intercepted it(the triangulation pattern)and terminated transmission(well that is not the "window" period).
I do not think they like spooky things,whereas if Luke does it it is OK.

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so will this problem ever get fixed?  I enjoy your mail...you are quite a character and I mean that in a good way,  ok my little Koala bear,,,i have to get some sleep...i had been awake for 26 hours the other night and then only 3 hours last night..ever since I went to the cemetary on Easter I have been unable to sleep...talk to ya soon    love cin
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Same here:I want to fix it ASAP and will ring my Internet Service Provider `Today`.18-4-2001,4:41 (EST)wednesday.
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pLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU GET IT FIXED     LOVE CIN
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Hey my grandpa tries to get everything for free.  My aunt went his house once, and saw him figiting around w/ the phone lines, LOL, and asked him what he was doing........(get ready for this one!!)  He said I'm trying to get internet service.......lmao
We are waiting for him to build a space ship, and go to the moon to install his very own satelite.lollllllllllllll

Annie.....(:


PS......He tried this w/ cable tv too......lmao
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I can help him get free cable and Internet,but it sounds like he enjoys the challenge more than success.As far as space ships go,are you sure he is not taking to many antiparkinsonian drugs?.
Never the less we all need a cute fury koala crawing around our roof tops and lamp posts,he sounds fun!.
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Oh he's fun alright.  My grandmother passed away 18 months ago from terminal cancer, and we all thought we'd loose him after that, but his inventivness saved him I guess.....Now he has a neighbor lady bringing him pralines (home-made candy) lmao.
......uh that's when he's not up on the roof.....LOL
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......I haven't read the whole thread, but upon running through rather quickly......You all were discussing something happening in 2012.  Well, that is what some Biblical prophecy experts say, and I can't relay everything, but they've done their homework and thoroughly studied time lines, and artifacts/geography...
There is also one web/radio link that I frequent from time to time, and they were discussing what happens in some of the U.N. meetings......we are so in the dark.  This guy just slipped in w/ some group, and said they already have laid the ground work for whats to be called the "National Neighborhood."  Need I say more.....Sounds like a One world gov't thing going on there.
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Its called the "NWA" new world order.
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NWO :"The"-New World Order.

As implemented by the NWA new world Authority(the Covert "Underground American Military"
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.....Do you listen to the same program as I do?  Actually the program is calle Unraveling The New World Order.....heard of it.
Very interesting.  I think you got it right.

annie

I'm waiting on my email!!!!!!
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