Possible drug interactions for Methadone

[maximus]

I was severely injured at work over 2 years ago.  I have been taking Paxil for depression and was also recently switched from morphine to Methadone for pain treatment.  I read on the Internet that Paxil (or any SSRI drug) can cause a spike in blood pressure and possibly a stroke when mixed with Methadone.  My doctor is now recommending Effexor in place of Paxil.  Isn't Effexor also an SSRI? and to your knowledge, does it pose significant risk(s) when taken with Methadone?  If so, is there an anti-depressant that can be safely used with Methadone?

[Thomas]

I'm afraid I have no medical info to help you with (doc dan, if you're out there, please help this guy!). But I can observe, if I were getting enough methadone to control pain, I can't imagine being depressed. I just can't quite see it. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt to try going off the anti-depressants entirely for a week or so and seeing how you feel. Effexor is an SSRI, like Paxil. You can compare the two by going to:
www.rxlist.com
You will get access to all the manufacturer's info, the same stuff they send to the doctors. That may shed some light on the subject for you.
It's just that I can't imagine feeling anything but happy on a pain-killing dosage of methadone! Perhaps if you can get in any aerobic type exercise, like stair climbing, fast walking, swimming, bicycling, jogging -- these will all improve your mood, and that's not just a seat of the pants guess -- any doctor will tell you aerobic exercise is a highly effective mood elevator. Perhaps your answer is to find an alternative to SSRIs period.

P.S I mentioned "doc dan." He's a college-trained councelor at a methadone clinic. His e-mail address is "***@****." He's quite knowledgeable about methadone and all related material. You can trust him to give you solid, professional-quality answers that will be better than the doctor, if you can even get him to reply. Write Doc Dan. He'll help you, maximus. He's a good man who's dedicated his life to doing some good for society in this arena. You can rust what he tells you. Good luck.

[maximus]

I appreciate the enclosed e-mail address and your taking the time to respond to my question--I will try "Doc Dan"; however, I was completely disgusted with other parts of your response. I am not sure exactly who you are or what your qualifications are, but your response, "if you're getting enough methadone to control pain, I can't imagine being depressed" is quite uneducated, insensitive and way off the mark.  I can assure you it is quite possible to be both clinically depressed and on methadone and yes, I have recently gone off all anti-depressants for a 2 week period with no success.  I would give anything gladly to to be involved in an exercise program (yes, I know the incredible benefits of exercise for depression!) but, DUH, I also mentioned that I was seriously injured at work.  I have four different levels of injury now in my back and am not able to exercise.  Over the past two years I have undergone pain management, physical therapy, facet blocks, epidurals, and even an implanted morphine pump with no help.  I am now facing an extensive surgery with a fusion that will cover the entire lumbar region of my back.  Methadone is the first thing I have been given that has actually given me any pain relief.  I am a hard worker, (formerly  80 hours a week), formerly very active person and have never suffered from depression in my life.  Last fall, I began suffering from severe depression, suicidal thoughts and paranoia. I would gladly ditch the SSRI's but am finding them quite necessary at the time.  I don't believe sanity OR pain relief should have to be a choice, I just would like to make sure I am being as safe as possible with my meds.  Whoever the hell you are, you might pay attention more closely to the details of a question and also not discount what a person tells you by saying, I can't imagine being depressed and on methadone.  Get a grip, *******.

[Frankinscense]

No need to be so defensive, friend. People are just trying to help with your problem. I realise depression accompanies pain.
In most cases if you remove the depression pain relief will follow.                                                           Methadone is being used as an antidepressant in some indiviuals that do not respond to traditional treatments. There is some research that indicates NARIs help depression that accompanies chronic pain.                                                              Methadone has a tendency to lower blood pressure in certain individuals. So it is essential to monitor blood pressure youself while on methadone.  Good Luck!
Dan..

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

We don't appreciate remarks and name-calling such as your's here. You are the *******, Maximus.  ******* Maximus shall be the name that most suits you and your condition.  J.B.

[Wizard]

Ditto to J.B.'s response. Why don't YOU get a GRIP!!!!!!!!!!
Mean spiteful attitudes will get you no sympathy here..
I will pray for you,
Wizard

[Jimenez]

Not fair to maximus...especially in light of the fact that Thomas has absolutely no experience with Methadone. For him to speak about it and say that he can't imagine being depressed and on methadone is unwarranted and uneducated. I am now on methadone and never uttered a word (except questions) about methadone before I was on it myself. I don't think it's fair or accurate for anyone, including myself, to make blanket statements about drugs that we've never tried. I think this is a case of people valliantly trying to help, even though they know little or nothing of the circumstances. As nice as this may be, it is useless to the individual who was asking for help. He just needed to know the interaction of methadone with SSRI's. If I or anyone else doesn't know about that, maybe silence is golden. I know Thomas will take this personally, and I really hope he doesn't because the stuff he DOES know about is really helpful, it's just that some people are truly only looking for the exact answers to their questions here. Yeah, he was a little harsh to Thomas - but hey - we've all been there too. A little sympathy isn't only proper, but warranted.

[Wizard]

You are truly right in the fact that we all have been there.But if you really read what Thomas said, you will see that he STARTED his post with " I'm afraid I have no medical info to help you" then he proceeds to refer to Doc Dan. That's pretty clear to me. He only then proceeded to state his opinion which did NOT warrant the sarcasm that was delivered to him. WE ALL have a story to tell here. We ALL pull from each others experience. I still say, "BAD ATTITUDE=NO SYMPATHY" I DO have COMPASSION and PITY for anyone in his situation. I DO still love him as a fellow human being suffering. I will STILL pray for his peace. And above all, I DON'T think Thomas will take it personally. He's got too much Class, Integrity and Life experience to waste time on negative force. I think Maximus should re-read Thomas' post again with a little love in his heart. For in his post, there were some leads to GOOD information! I applaud YOU Jimenez, for coming to Maximus' defense. You see, We all are family including you and Maximus, and protect our own. You are All in my prayers,
Power & Magick 2 U all,
Peace & Light on us all,
Wizard

[Thomas]

I'll tell you what, gentleman, since I don't seem to have pleased anyone on the forum today, I've been thinking of retiring from participating on the forum anyway and maximus has given me all the motivation I need to bid you all farewell. Goodbye and good luck.
In the future, consider me gone.

Thomas

[Angelica]

Totally uncalled for!!!!  As I said once before, don't wear your feelings on your sleeve......I don't recall Thomas calling you any derogatory names.  You are "way to sensative!" Man, who needs to get a grip???????

Thomas: Don't you go and abandon me too.  This is getting to be, to much for me to handle.  You've seen people come and go, from this board, and you've been one of the mainstayers...here.  You have helped so many people, and you were the very first one to respond to me on this doggone board!!!! This is the last straw...people just drop by here, and say anything they dam well please (like someone else I know). This needs to stop.
....We are not doctors, nor do we claim to be......we are here to discuss our life experiences, concerning addiction...and everything that goes w/it, and  You've gone beyond the call of duty. Sometimes, I think people are looking for a fight.....they drop in here just to release some steam, and then POOF!...they're off.
  
Jiminez:  Where have you been lately??? Nice to see you resurface, still holding grudges??? (:
Angelica

[Wizard]

Nicely said....You Go Girl!....As I said above we ALL take care of our own. You keep your chin up, there will always be some of us here for you. As for the **** disturbers, **** THEM! oh geeze....I got carried away for a moment....I formally apologize to all of you for my lapse of good manners. I DO have to eat with this mouth...I'm sorry for saying F**K YOU..oops I did it again. The Wizard is going to wash his mouth out with soap. This is not following the way  of the Wiz......Forgive me. I think I'll go back over the rainbow and do some serious praying for us all.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace,
luv,
Wizard

[Deja]

I'm not going to get involved in the above squabble, however, I do have some information to relay in regard to stopping SSRI treatment.  

I can seriously sympathize with your circumstances and I do understand that depression often lives comorbidly with chronic pain.  In the past when you have stopped your SSRI treatment you state that you have gone off it for 2 weeks with no success.

If you think back to when you began treatment with your particular antidepressant it took up to 6 weeks to become fully effective.  Anyone discontinuing use of one of these medications has to be weaned off, that is, dropping the dose as per your doctor until you are able to stop totally.  

It takes the same 4 to 6 weeks to know if you can stay off the medication without relapse of depression.  It's not an easy thing stopping SSRI meds!  Sudden cessation can lead to many, many symptoms not limited to but including; anxiety, restlessness, neurological disturbances (twitching, head or eye "whooshing" etc.), difficulty concentrating, sleeplessness, among others.

Please, anyone considering stopping SSRI (or any other prescribed antidepressive) treatment contact your doctor for the dosage ramp-down! Don't do this suddenly or without medical supervision.

I wish you luck, success and strength.

Deja

[Thomas]

Dear forum friends,
Most of you I feel I’ve gotten to know quite well in the time I have participated in the forum. So, while I am resigning from active participation in the forum, I would not want to lose touch entirely from people I have grown to know and love. I am sending this notice also via hotmail with, unfortunately, certain key people’s addresses missing, such as Brighty’s (I have to re-send this notice again tonight when I have access to a few more addresses, such as hers. The omissions were not intentional; it’s just that I don’t have access to everyone’s address at work.

If you read the “appreciation” I got from some hostile, self-important person calling himself maximus (inviting all sorts of speculation as to what is maximum about this “person,” you would be reading just the tip of a very big iceberg that helped make up my mind that I no longer want to care, write, research or type anymore on the forum just so that people like maximus can tell me how disgusted I’ve made him.

Well, anyway, I’m through. I’m not posting on the forum ever again. There was something about maximus’ reaction to a letter I spent a fair amount of time last night preparing for him in a spirit of simply wanting to help another human being in need that really sickened and angered me.  I think when the posters I’m trying to help elicit such negative emotions in me, rightly or wrongly, it’s time to quit.

This I have done effective immediately.

As I said, I will be sending this note out as a couple of hotmails to make sure I leave no one’s e-mail address out. I know that some of you already have my e-mail addresses. As far as I'm concerned, we can continue to communicate and help each other just like we do now. Our words just won't be available for the dubious entertainment of these nothings. Do me one favor: you know who you are: if I leave you out by accident, please send me something with your address on it so we can keep connections open. –THAT MEANS YOU, ANGELICA. I’m not sure if I’ve got your e-mail address, but I would never abandon you.

Please send anything like that to:

***@****

Peace,

Thomas

[Angelica]

Clorox might do it!......LOL
Be careful, there are ladies in the room, ****....man! OOPS Did I say that, how dare me?  A little holy anger, I guess.

[cindi]

Man, this is a load of ****...Thomas, I am not one to beg...but please reconsider...we share need you, you are one of the first to be there to offer advice (which is credible) support and encouragement to us..you have helped me and my sidekicks on many occasions...and the funny part is that since i have been posting here you have never asked for anything...nothing in return,,,the forum needs to weed out the **** disturbers (as wiz so eloquently phrased it LOL)  Thomas  these are the type of people that jump on when they have a problem, never offer a shittin thing to the forum, kick up the dust and **** everyone else..oops,,  sorry wiz, it's contagious...and then they have their followers, who stop by once in awhile, put in their 2 cents and stir up a little more dust and then hit the road again....(Hi Jiminez  long time no see)  why should you be the one to leave?  just some more of my food for thought.....Love cin

[Wizard]

Cindy my dear! I knew you'd come along soon. I LOVE YOUR FOOD FOR THOUGHT! Cin, down a few strings is a post from a Callie I think wanted to know if any other nurses are here...check it out.
Power & Magic 2 U,
God Bless the Nurses 2,
Love Wiz

[Jay-Jay]

Please, please don't go!!  Maximus is definatly drepressed and it shows in his angry response.. You just happend to be the be the one he unloaded on in his search for truth, doesn't make it right of course but again this is what we do when our bodies and minds aren't what they should be.. Don't let it get to you personally because you are wise and very needed...!! I am hoping you will change your mind!  If you don't (weep, weep, sniff) I will thank you now for your selfless advise you have given me and others...

^j^ ^j^

PS... Maximus if you are reading these posts I just want to say man oh man.. see what you went and did...!! Post an apology or something for the benefit of the rest of us!!!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Man, I hate to think that you will no longer be around here! This is the Addiction Forum after all is said and done here. It's about getting high and finding a way out of this haze of  insanity. You have helped me become a better person during these many months of posting. I've always admired your willingness to help those of us who suffer from addiction. Geez, between you and me , we have 60 years of experience! I, for one, appreciate you very much! J.B.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I guess that I'm the one who keeps harping on AA and the Big Book of AA.  Get a copy and start reading today.  All of the answers to life's problems are addressed in those 575 pages. Now flame me for trying to help...I've got big shoulders!  J.B.

[Angelica]

No flames here, JB......Man, what a loyal friend you are!  I hope Tom realizes how much we/I appreciate him.  I actually think he has a following, here. LOL Just between you and I (yeah right?) the morale in this room sure has changed, hasn't it.  I don't visit nearly  as much as I once did.  I can recall posting under almost every thread....LOL And thats quite funny, thinking back, on how I just stared at the board for days......didn't even have the courage to post. I can even recall Vicojen.....and uh who else, vicky vortex???Rem. them JB??  Oh well, things surely have evolved.  We definately have some nice additions, on a positive note.....................................Hope your well, these days.....................Angelica

[Thomas]

JB, I love you like a brother but it's not just "maximus:"

Allow me to quote myself: "P.S I mentioned "doc dan." He's a college-trained councilor at a methadone clinic. His e-mail address is " [CENSORED]." He's quite knowledgeable about methadone and all related material. You can trust him to give you solid, professional-quality answers that will be better than the doctor, if you can even get him to reply. Write Doc Dan. He'll help you, maximus. He's a good man who's dedicated his life to doing some good for society in this arena. You can trust what he tells you. Good luck."

I guess I must be screwed up in the head or something, because I actually thought I was saying something nice thing about doc dan, his background and motivation and by including his e-mail addresss (a hotmail address, by the way) I was putting him in touch with someone who could use expertise about methadone (you remember, the stuff I don't know anything about?). WRONG AGAIN THOMAS! I received an e-mail over hotmail from doc dan curtly informing me that if he wanted me to give someone his e-mail address, he would have done it himself or directed me to do it. So I offended doc dan by accusing him of being well-informed and motivated to help people, which obviously can't be true, can it?

I apologized to doc dan and immediately deleted his e-mail address from my directories and pledged never to mention his name to anyone in need again, since doc dan is no longer in the business of helping people addicted to narcotics. Dan made it clear that my efforts were not appreciated in any way shape or form. I hope by promising to ignore his existence indefinitely, I have somehow made up for this terrible misdeed. Imagine, I actually thought Dan would want to help this guy. How could I have been so naïve?

The fact is, we're all on our own. Nobody cares about anyone else. The only thing the doc dans of this forum are interested in is getting their egos greased and getting a soapbox when they feel the need to spout off.

My advice to anyone on this forum: Don't try to help anyone. It's not appreciated. In fact, it's considered a sign of weakness or feeblemindedness. I say farewell to the forum - it actually worked at one point - but now it's become something I don't have the words for - other than one: Goodbye ...

JB send Marty my love and very best wishes for that dear lady's recovery. I know how important she is to you - very much like my own Bobbie is to me. May you both heal each other through love and devotion - just don't expect prima donnas like doc dan to lift a finger.

Thomas

[susanlea]

You and I have never had the pleasure of interacting on this forum. Over the past several months since I have come to this forum, I have read every one of your posts, relies and comments. I don't know you first hand, but I have seen your caring and concern for others. You said no one is here to help another, well I think maybe you are hurt right now. I have seen nothing but your wanting to help others, and you have. I believe that you are a genuine person who gives to others. And like Cindi said, I have also never seen you ask for anything in return. I for one do not want to see you go. I would like some time to get to know you better. It seems lately some have gotten out of sorts here. I never put in a comment about it, because I feel if ignored that person will lose the desire to cause an upset. Nothing grows if you don't feed it. Please reconsider for us who really do listen and absorb from you knowledge. Everyone can take what they want from each others responses and leave the rest. You have given me much valuable information which I am truly grateful for. You will be sorely missed.......Love Susan Lea
PS. I am very new to computers. If I can figure out, or someone will show me, I will send you an E-Mail      Thank You

[Thomas]

you're wasting your time asking maximus for an apology. Afterall, he accomplished what he set out to do -- drive a caring person away from those who need help. Watch his posts in the future: This is just the beginning. He will find a way to criticise, insult and drive away anyone with any good to offer. Ask youself, who is this maximus really? What motivates him to say the things he says? Personally, I see a black soul (and I don't mean African American). I see someone constituted by black thoughts and violent wishes to the people that cross his path. He will never apologise to me or anyone else. He's got what he wants: I've left in disgust -- something he can take full credit for and laugh to himself over and over. He's a weak man who needs to find a way to feel powerful. Hanstringing the forum by driving me away (and I'm just the beginning) is as good a way as any to feel powerful.

[Thomas]

my e-mail address is:

***@****

write me there and I'll give you an easier e-mail address to remember.

I'm not leaving the forum to desert my friends. I'm leaving to deny people like maximus the opportunity to turn my caring for people into something to be ridiculed for. I hate to say this but I hope karma, or cause and effect, whatever you wish to call it, plays a role in maximus' life very, very soon.  

Thomas

[susanlea]

Gotta question guys! If my former boyfriend ran out of methadone, would he have withdrawals? He came by the other night, after 2 months. He was acting, and looking like he did when he was starting to run out of oxy's. He said he was doing them as prescribed, down to 10 to 15 mgs aday. He looked like ****! I saw somewhere here on the forum that methadone works like an antidepressent. He seemed so depressed. He told me the only thing he does is go to work, come home, sleep and do it all over again the next day. He doesn't go anywhere, or do anything. Just like it was with the oxy's. He has gained some weight, I know that's one of the side effects.  But he just looks so much older, and worn out. He has no desire to live. He said he's trying to get his act together. But he will not consider a program, sponser, rehab nothing. He says he can do it on his own. The saddest thing is, he has no higher power, no faith, no spiritualism, he's not an atheist.  I felt and still feel so helpless. I've lost a man, who I have loved almost 6 years. He lives with his mom and dad, but he has nothing, no friends, his kids didn't even call him on his birthday. I was the only thing he had left from all the drug abuse. He didn't want me either. I can't figure out why he came over, he left so angry in March. He told me when he left, he would come by again. I dont' understand? He doesn't want help or this relationship. What does he want with me? We havent had sex in almost 2 years, because of his lack of interest(no endorphines, dopamine levels gone) I told him I nolonger take pills, that I have a patch. So he can't be coming by for that. I'm really lost here guys, I know he's reaching, but I don't know what for, or what to do. I would help him , but he doesn't want help. I thought I was doing well one day at a time, help through a sponser, Al-anon, friends and mostly praying. But seeing him, He doesn't talk much, really threw me off. I thought I was strong, but I am so weak. I hate that he can affect me like this. It's been over since he chose his path. It's been 2 years of hell and I though I was getting my life back, just without him. Now I'm caving. Any advice, Please I deperately need some. I don't know what to look for? What are the signs of methadone abuse, withdrawals. Can he really be responsible with all those methadone pills? He would take 30 oxy's in 2 days. He said you can't get high from Methadone. I love all of you, you guys have been my lifeline these past several months, you guys have given  me a reason to go on, you've made me realize his addiction wasn't my fault, that I couldn't control it. Even when he said his addiction had nothing to do with our problems, you helped me realize it had alot to do with it, It made me someone else, a pathetic, whinning , raging *****. I just couldn't take the verbal, emotional abuse. His hiding for months in another room, withdrawn, distant, unavailable, sick........thanks guys....I need all of you right now.......Love Susan Lea

[maximus]

To the Forum (and most especially to Thomas):

Wow, after reading all of these comments, I do not even know where to begin.  

First of all, I think we (my wife and I) misunderstood to whom we were submitting a question.  I am certainly not discounting any expertise that any of you might have; however, we thought we were submitting a question to a doctor that might respond with some help.  We did not realize that this was an open forum for any to respond to.  

And you are all right, there was no call for name-calling and attitude.  There is certainly no excuse for this behavior but we have had very long and trying few days (months, years) going back and forth with our own doctors. We have several doctors working with my case and difficulty with each doctor keeping up with what any other doctor has prescribed and also getting calls back from any of the various doctors. Again, I know it sounds like I am just volleying one excuse after another but it is so frustrating sometimes trying to convey to people what is really going on and to get good solid information.

Thomas:  if you are still on board, I apologize profusely for the lambasting.  We though you might be a snot-nosed intern or professional just thumbing through the questions and not giving any real care or concern for the person involved.  Under any circumstances, it was inappropriate for me to take out my frustrations on you.

From the comments I have read I would like to say that it seems that you have genuine care and concern for those involved in this forum and try to offer any help possible.  We greatly appreciate your response to our message and any help you did offer.  I would also like to add, that you should never give up in trying to offer help to people around you.  You never know when you have given help to just the person who needs it the most.  Also, even when you are faced with angry and critical folks, please realize you may be getting through to them anyway.

On a more personal note:  I would also like to add that I picked the name Maximus only because Gladiator is one of my favorite movies and not because of any grandiose ideas I have about myself.  Additionally, I can say with utmost confidence that I do not have a deeply darkened spirit.  On most days, I have the light of Christ that keeps the darkness well at bay.  I also try, in my own way, (believe it or not) to reach out to others.  There are some days however, where the journey has been too long, the pain has been too much and the burden seems to go on forever.

Please understand I am not a "****-stirrer" or troublemaker or trying in any way to invalidate what any person contributes to this forum and I am not seeking sympathy in any form.  I was just looking for information and wrongly lashed out at those trying to help.  Also, I might add that sometimes it is way too easy to forget that there are genuine human beings on the other side of a monitor and that it is perhaps too tempting to lash out at someone who is not face-to-face.  (Not an excuse, just my own sudden realization).

I wish you continued success with your forum and again apologize for any of those I have hurt.  

To Dr. Dan and other encouraging folks:  thanks for the advice, encouragement and prayers.  I will keep them all in mind.

Maximus

[cindi]

Maximus,  the was a very nice post....and it takes a big person to apologize as you have done...lots of times people here have apologized for their statements   Thomas is a fair man, and from what I have read from him he is  a  forgiving man...and to Thomas,,ok now would you please reconsider?  I know what you said about Doc Dan but..you know how he can be...can't you just ignore him..he has made other comments to you and to aother people that seem to just blow him off,  would you consider doing the same?  ok,  why leave   you and I have discussed the forum before and what it does for us,  how we feel about..no matter what time of day or night it is we can go here and pound out or frustrations etc.  on the keyboard...why hurt yourself?  ahy take something away from youself if you care for it? if you Thomas leave then what if Jb leaves etc.  then what?  if you do decide to go can Patrick come back?  just think about it  OK?  Love to all    cin

[JoeJ]

If I know Thomas, he will be back.  He cares too much about others to stay away.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I knew all along that this was just a misunderstanding of this forum on your part. I came here long ago seeking a Doctor's advice to help me through some bad times. Doctors can despense all kinds of "duh!" advice but are about as helpful as my dog...maybe less so. At least my dog is personally involved with me and I get the feeling she really gives a damn. Doctors cure nothing when it comes to addiction. Have you ever seen a doctor at a group therapy session? In short, we are on our own but not alone in our search for recovery from addiction. If you have a problem...use us as a sounding board if nothing else. By doing so, you will be helping you and me.  J.B.

[niccee]

I am trying to get off of methadone which has been a life saver, but I prefer not to be on anything. I am down from 80 mgs to 20mgs. I have run out of methadone before I got my act together and got in a program. The results were a terrible depression along with the other withdrawl symptoms. As a matter of fact I am dealing with depression now from trying to get off. Does anyome have any advice for that? Good luck.

[Leigh]

I've been lurking on this forum for a long, long time. I've found the messages and advice to be very helpful and encouraging. However, occasionally I read things that I don't agree with. No problem--I take what I need and leave the rest. After all, I do firmly believe in freedom of speech.

That being said, here's my advice to Thomas (again, you can take it or leave it): grow up. You've played this game before, and I think that it's utterly ridiculous to waste the time and space on this forum with your personal pity trip when people have honest questions and concerns about addiction. Maximus hurt your feelings--so what? And because 'Doc'Dan didn't shower you with praise for posting his email address to a perfect stranger (which would infuriate me, too), you've decided to criticize him and air your dirty laundry to everyone else? Come on. The mature thing to do is to post a quick note to Maximus, telling him to please refrain from calling you names when you were just trying to offer help. End of story. And maybe apologize to 'Doc' Dan for posting his personal email address without permission. And then life goes on. You can only control your reactions, Thomas. This is one of the things we learn in our support programs, such as NA and AA. Let go of your anger and let Maximus and 'Doc' Dan deal with their own reactions. And for goodness sake, spare us your pity party on this forum.

I've seen this before from you. Someone criticizes you, or does something that you perceive to be an attack to your ego, and you write a dramatic post saying good-bye. I'm not sure if these past dramas have been erased, but I clearly remember seeing you do this more than once. You even changed your name for a while, and had your alter-ego post notes for Tom. I'm sorry that your feelings get hurt so easily. But that's a chance you take in life everyday when you choose to interact with people. Sometimes the result is quite rewarding and flattering, such as the friendships you make. Other times you might have to deal with some negativity. It's part of being an adult. But when you post these flowery, dramatic good-byes and air your dirty laundry about other forum participants (ie, Dan), you take up space on this forum and distract everyone from giving support and answering the questions of fellow addicts who may truly need the empathy and concern of others on this board. And it honestly makes you look quite pathetic. Especially since you post this dramatic message saying this is my last post--and then you continue to post. Are you actually threatening us? Are you trying to intimidate people like Dan and Maximus, so they will publicly post apologies? Are you trying to align the loyalties of other forum participants, so they will alienate Maximus, who might really need help, and Dan, who tried to settle his problem with you privately? Why? If your feelings are hurt, then have the guts to say so. Hopefully you'll get a few supportive messages and an apology, and we can all get back to the thing that brought us here in the first place: fighting our addiction.

Thomas, Patrick (who might make a comeback, speaking for Tom)--get a tougher skin. Or try to be a little more understanding and sympathetic. Try to look into your fellow addict's soul, and understand that everyone is NOT out to get you personally. Someone might sound a little angry or hostile in their post because they're scared and dealing with the pain of addiction--don't we all know that firsthand? And please stop making idle threats about leaving this forum. We all enjoy your posts and would hate to see you go, but if it means not enduring these dramatic good-byes and ego-boosting threads every few months, then so be it.

[chipper1]

I am new to the board. I was taking hydrocodone about 8 tabs a day. 10/325 Norco.
I was buying them of these internet sites with DR. Consults.
I have decided that this is not for me at all. I immediately went cold turkey. I called a crisis center in our area, they offered no help except telling me to call another center, and I have health insurance so i did not understand that. Anyway I have gone cold turkey. I am day 2 of not taking any pills at all. I have had about 2 hrs of sleep in the last 48 hours. My lower back and my legs, as of last night, i was pacing the floor, i hurt so bad. As I am typing this I am not in any real physical pain, it just seems to hit real bad at night time. I have been off from work the past 2 days and I will be back to work in the morning friday. I just pray that I can get some sleep tonight, Anxiety has been terrible. But I am making it. I have been reading the board here and I have found some useful information. Take care

[cindi]

Like I said,,people who usually do not post here just jump on and put in their 2 cents, stir up **** and leave...they have no business attacking you or anyone else on this forum,,,I think maybe people should refrain from taking someone else's inventory..Thomas, all of your posts have been very supportive and enlightening...and if people do not agree with what you, I or any of us are about oh well,  remember we don't live to please anybody but ourselves...But, like I said, it takes alot to say I'm sorry  the words are easy but they have to come with sincerity and that takes a bib person...and I really think that Maximas was very sincere in his apology..hope to see you soon

[Angelica]

EH hum!....personally, I think one goes into the medical profession To "help" the sick, am  I not right????  So whats the deal w/ Doc dan... So what if Tom gave out his address in hopes of directing help!!!!  BIG woopidy do!   Doc dan should never give out his email address, here or anywhere, if he doesn't want people responding to him!  Hey thats what doctors do, right?? Help heal the sick.......I guess not. So much for his humanitarian efforts.   This is generally my experience w/ most of them,anyway....."hey don't bother me, go away, why don't ya!" He's just another one that pops in and pops out.  What did I call it, Tom? oh yeah, A fly by night.  Yeah thats it!
As far as for people lurking, why didn't any of these people come to the forefront(not mentioning names), when someone was name calling,and making threats, and false accusations.....man, it was really serene(actually crazy, from where I stood) here, about 2 weeks ago...I am speaking of a certain poster who seems to be gone from here,now.  Why didn't anyone straighten this persons A** out????  THis person waltzed in here, posted whatever the hell they wanted, and tried persuasion on just about everyone in here........Did anyone tell _____? anything....NOOOOOOOOOOOOO  My point is:  Tom, didn't try to hurt anyone.......intentionally.  He wasn't ghostly in the least.....YA GET MY DRIFT......

[cindi]

You did it again!!!  you are soooo good at getting the point across...I'm glad I'm on your good side hee hee hee,,,man, this is bad I re read that post where there has been some lurking going on here, and then decides to make an appearance not with any advice but only to blast someone here that is of value to us/the forum..preaching what they have learned in NA and AA?  Letting go of anger?   how about letting go of resentments, not taking other people's inventory?  and the poster accused Thomas of taking up needed space on the forum and distracting everybody  yeah...Ok..whatever..that's like the pot calling the kettle black..Angelica,  we just sat and read a few paragraphs that took up space and had nothing to do with the subject of fighting addiction...do you think Thomas was hosting a pity party?  It didn't sound that way...i think he was just hurt and baffled over this whole thing as all he wanted to do was help someone, he even stated himself that when his feelings become negative it is time to leave,,Max apologized and like I said it takes balls to say I'm sorry and truly mean it...and being the kind of person Thomas is I'm sure the apology has been accepted...so the only problem left now is the lurking and taking up needed space that has nothing to do with anything that is of her/his concern...Angelica,  do ya'll get my DRIFT?  and to poor chipper: Thomas has a good tried and true method to detox from hydrocodone in the most humane comfortable way possible...I really can't remember it all but you can write to him at the e-mail address above, and it really is quite simple and from what I understand it does work...really, don't let the above post by the "lurker" scare you off where Thomas is concerned..He/she does not have a clue as to what he/she is talking about,,,it's probably something hormonal    good luck and hang in there  write to Thomas  you can't go wrong,,,Love to all    cin

[Angelica]

COME BACK......MAXIMUS, DID THE RIGHT THING, AND APOLOGIZED.  EVERYTHING IS FINE.  LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, ONCE AGAIN.  I MISS BRIGHTY, AND I'M ALREADY MISSING YOUR "NO-NONSENSE" POSTS....DON'T MAKE ME COME AN GETCHA! LOL

[shane]

Leigh, I like what you said. I posted a question under great duress not long ago,and inadvertently inturupted a thread. It was adressed to several regular's and I am almost certain Thomas was among them. This I found was a great faux paux(spelling)? so my question went on ignored and unansweared by everyone except Wizard. It hurt to be excluded at such a vulnerable time in life, but the point is THOMAS< you just move on> I would still not hesitate to offer any advise to anyone I could help, at any time! Thats what it's about. Not who hurts who. Keep on keeping on! THanks again WIZ! Your great. Love to all of you, and peace in your life.  Shane

[Leigh]

First of all--'Doc'Dan is not a doctor. Hence, the quotes. He's a counselor and a recovering addict. So I don't think he owes anyone his undivided medical attention...especially since he doesn't qualify to truly give that sort of advice. His words of wisdom and experiences are very valuable, but he shouldn't have to share that with the world via his personal email address. If he gave it to someone in confidence, why should he have to expect that confidence to be betrayed?

Second, this really isn't our business. My point was that Thomas and Dan could've settled this via email (as Dan had attempted to do). It seemed a bit odd to read Thomas's post where he expressed his hurt about Maximus and revealed a private argument with Dan. My point was that he could've apologized about posting Dan's address without making comments about his friendship with Dan. It just seemed like he was being very sensitive. I will definitely admitt that Maximus was wrong by calling Thomas an *******. And yes, he apologized. Very nice. But Thomas has been here for a long, long time. And this sort of thing has happened before. People come to this forum in a state of fear and sometimes desperation. They're too scared to go to their doctors, sometimes they can't tell their families--for some, this is the last resort. I think we could all try to understand that sort of fear and not take it as a personal afront. I know I'be been there before....

And I have posted in the past. I used to contribute regularly to this forum, under a different name (my old name is currently being used as someone else's nickname). I stopped posting because things got very silly. It was right about the time that Thomas was 'Tom' and posted a big, long-winded good-bye because his feelings had been hurt. A few days later, he returned as 'Patrick' posting for Tom. And then Thomas. I think he's a very special person, too--and that's my point. He's a little too special to keep engaging in this drama. He seems to enjoy participating in this forum. So instead of threatening to leave and getting everyone all riled up, why not ignore the occassional hostile poster and continue to help the people who appreciate him? I love reading the advice on this forum--but I really get frustrated when I read a bunch of 'farewell' posts every few months, just because Tom's ego got bruised.

Finally, I did not see the disturbing post that everyone keeps referring to from a few weeks ago. It seems to have been erased. I was away on business at the time of the post.

[Thomas]

I thank all my dear friends on the forum – cindi, angelica, J.B., Jay-Jay, lea, Wizard - I’m sure there were more (please forgive me if I left out your name) – for your support. It meant a lot to me.

I accept maximus’ apology (I loved the movie, too). I also can understand how, assuming I was an official medico of some kind performing my version of providing serious medical advice, maximus might have been more than a little “disappointed.” I apologize if I gave the impression I was anything but what I am – a narcotics addict with thirty years, so far, on my “resume.”

Maximus’ subsequent post back to me gave a much more detailed account of his ordeal. I must say I was quit overwhelmed by what he is going through and regretted the majority of my original post. My only real goal in that post was to put him in touch with someone who I knew had a great deal of knowledge and experience about methadone, namely doc dan. Publishing his e-mail address was not my first choice, but I wanted maximus to reach doc dan and just placing a few words in my post asking doc dan to contact him would have been quite lame and most likely ineffective. I have more to say below about doc dan’s “secret” e-mail address, but let me say right now that it was the only way I knew to get maximus some meaningful help and I didn’t give much thought as to how much dan would or wouldn’t like it.

To Leigh, I offer this challenge. Stop lurking and start helping! By your own admission, you’ve “been lurking on this forum for a long, long time.” Not just “a long time” mind you – “a long, long time.” In my opinion, you’ve done nothing but take from this forum – what is it? You just like reading posts written by people in pain? Why not use some of those same powers of perception you trotted out to lambaste me with and try providing some kind of tangible help, or at least some understanding or companionship, to someone in deep psychological and physical trouble? We’ve witnessed your enthusiasm and skill for tearing people down. Now let’s see if you’ve got anything left to actually ease someone’s suffering or loneliness on the forum. I for one am looking forward to reading your forthcoming posts.

I’d like to clear something else up. When the forum suddenly required us to register, someone had already taken “Tom,” and so I used my middle name, a choice I soon regretted and eventually changed to the best compromise I could manage. There was no “alter ego” involved. I still have only one ego, last time I checked.

One other thing, while we’re clearing the fallout. Doc Dan has published his e-mail address on the forum without anyone’s help. If it’s supposed to be a secret, I think he’d better log back onto Hotmail and get himself a new address, because he blew this one’s cover a long time ago.

I’m going to end this post so I can think of something to say to chipper. I know this is Friday and he’s supposed to be back at work. With this three-day weekend coming up, I can barely stay in my seat. He must be going out of his mind.

[Angelica]

You are definately intitled to your opinion, and I have to say I Don't disaggree w/ the context in general.  As for "DOC"Dan...I knew all along he was a counselor, and Not a real doctor......My statement remains.  Counselors are held to the same standards, if not more so, because many of these professionals(one might call it) go into this field out of devotion, and concern and many DO NOT even get a paycheck, because sometimes it's voluntary?? You know what I mean.....as I said before, my statement about him stands.....and if he's NOT a doctor, then Why is he acting like one?? Just look at the handle he's given himself.....Need I say more?  You and I both know his "by right title", but many do not!!!! I do not post my email address here, and Have corresponded w/ some on this forum, who chose to post their addresses, therefore, they now have mine.  Well, one of these posters(who seems to be on vacation)threatened to post it here on the forum along w/ my real name...out of revenge!!!! Simply cause he didn't like what I had to say...UH UH!!! That's a big no no.  This situation was entirely different...when you post your email address on an open public forum....well, that's like saying I will purchase ad space on a billboard on Intersate hwy..???, but I only want a certain group of people to contact me......Does that make sense??  Well, Leah at any rate, I am glad that you chose to post, and hopefully you will continue.  I have nothing against you personally. I just feel that Tom got a bad rap in this ordeal, and Maximus is a better person for it, because he chose to apologize, and admit wrong doing...It probably won't be the last time, we go through this again. Best wishes to you, and thanks for the response.
Love,
Angelica

[Wizard]

I am so sorry no one responded to you quickly. It's been kinda nuts on the board as of late and I think your post got buried between others. :-(  I just read Thomas'post below and he mentioned yours. I'm sure he'll be along soon too. Chipper1 if you have seen any of the recipes posted for the L-Tyrosine and B-6 formula, I can tell you that it works for me. I got it from Thomas and I'm on day 27 I think and doing wonderful. You can too! It goes like this, 4000mg of L-Tyrosine and 200 mg of B-6 every other day on an empty stomach. No Coffee because it'll wire you some. Have brand name Imodium (immodium) on hand for the runs and take it at the first sign on lower distress. If you can get some Valium, Xanax or Ativan type benzo,s for the first couple of days to ease your self through it and sleep it off it will help. Take hot baths or jacuzzis for the aches, it's great for sure. Now that I see Thomas back posting I'm sure he'll jump in with somemore GREAT ADVICE. He sure helped me as did all the other "angels" here. You CAN do this. We are all in your corner rooted and praying for you! Welcome Back Thomas :-)
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light On Ya,
Wizard

[cindi]

Well, I only hope this thread does not bring on what the ""other" one did..Max was a big person for apologizing and Tom well, I know Tom (kind of) and I knew he was a big person also to accept the apology which sometimes is just as hard as apologizing...and Leigh,  you are right when you say it is none of our business, but if anyone knows me on this forum and angelica they should know that I have this habit of coming to the defense of people that I care about and are important to me,,,at one time we were protecting ol spooky but that seems like a lifetime ago...WE care about Thomas, he has been here for me many times and if it was Angelica, Wizard, Kerrie or you or anyone else that got an undeserving slap in the face I would be there in their defense as well,  It may be wrong of me, it may be my biggest character defect I don't know  I've been blasted for it before no big deal to me...I just care...I care about people in general, so, I will not apologize for it nor will I stop defending people, even though they are quite capable of taking care of themselves,,,that is just my nature...be it good, bad or indifferent..I just hope that now that all is said and done..we can start over and play nice..love to all  cin

[Leigh]

Let me begin by saying, "welcome back, Thomas."  Although you cannot see the look on my face, let me assure you that my hello is genuine. Admittedly, I can be a bit long-winded in my posts, but what I really meant to say was cut the drama and please go back to doing what you do best--offering advice, support and resources to your fellow addicts. And sharing your experiences--both good and bad. When someone gets a little harsh or nasty, let's try to understand their pain. For some of us, it wasn't that long ago that we were trying to post questions and feeling very alone and frightened.

It would probably take me all of four seconds to re-live the fear and terror that haunted me when I was actively using and seeking help, trying to quit and relapsing, wondering about my health, etc. I remember my first post here, ages ago. Fortunately I had many wonderful responses, and thus my reasoning for perursing this forum on a somewhat regular basis. Yes, sometimes I simply read and lurk. Sometimes I feel like my contribution would be nothing but a cynical, angry diatribe on the evils of addiction and a society that creates a wonderful drug and then deprives us of the right to screw up our own bodies by using it. Other times I feel that my contribution would do nothing but echo the advice given by others who seem to have a wonderful talent for speaking (typing) from the heart. Either way, I often choose to read and not write. But okay--fair enough, I'll tell my story. I have told it before, but that was long (and yes, we can add another 'long' to that) ago.

However, I must say--I'm sending this from work, on a Friday, at 5pm--and before a holiday weekend, nonetheless. So I would rather leave now and pick this up next week. Don't want you to think that I lurked, blasted and left. I will be back next week. Don't get too excited though--my story is not that unique. Just your everyday prescription drug addict. Not a very fussy one, either. I'll take anything, as long as it's a controlled substance. Correction: I would've taken anything, past tense. Now, for about the sixth time, I'm sober and trying to remain that way. More on that later.

One final comment--about 'Doc'Dan. I was always a bit perturbed by the nickname he chose to use. I'm a researcher in the medical field, I've worked in health care before, and I know what the tag 'Doc' can do to a conversation. Yes, Angelica, you're right--it does imply the Hippocratic oath, and the idea that a person has taken a vow to help others--anytime, anyplace. So that 'Doc' part of his name always made me a bit nervous, as if someone would check out this forum and think that he was the doctor on staff. And yes, Thomas--if he posted his email in a previous thread, then you certainly had every right to think that he wouldn't object to you simply re-posting it. However, I don't think he owes anyone advice, outside of his clients, by virtue of the fact that he's a drug counselor. Just like I certainly hope that I won't have to do some emergency medical research while I'm on the beach this weekend.

That being said--I'm outta here. Have a nice holiday, everyone. And again, welcome back, Tom.

[Thomas]

Chipper,

I want to apologize for taking so long to get back to you. Believe me, I know EXACTLY what you’re going through. I admire your resolve to quit before you become someone like me. I’ve been addicted to prescription narcotics for more than thirty years. I lack the courage to even attempt to calculate what this lifelong obsession has cost me – not in dollars, but in all the ways it has limited my life experience. I call it a lifelong obsession because I cannot consider myself simply a pain patient who inevitably became addicted to the source of his pain relief. I love narcotics. Not like them. Love them. I have wasted a good deal of the time I have on this planet chasing drugs with the same ardor as a man pursuing the love of his life. Why? Thirty years later and I still haven’t a clue.

The good news is that you’ve seen where this activity is leading you at an early stage. At eight 10mg Norcos, you’re only using 16 regular Vicodins a day. The last time I entered a rehab (at the court’s “request”), I was taking seventy-five Vicodin per day, seven days a week, holidays included.

Of course, that doesn’t make what you’re going through any more bearable. The nighttime body and especially thigh and ankle pains are textbook Vicodin withdrawal symptoms.

I know you’re trying to get through this cold turkey, but, man, Vics are one of the most unpleasant “cold turkey experiences” going. Do you have, or can you get access to some benzodiazepines – drugs like Valium, Xanax, Librium, Klonopin? Without them, what can I say, it’s going to be rough whatever you do. Perhaps you’ve got a friend or a relative with a few in the medicine cabinet – it doesn’t sound like you’ve got a family doctor to turn to. Assuming you can get some Valium or one of the other benzos, plan for about 4 or 5 days on the stuff, starting the first couple days with enough to basically keep yourself “out of it,” then gradually decreasing the benzos down to nothing.

Of course, there’s the ever-popular runs! Get the brand-name Imodium (immodium) and take two at a time at each hint of the runs. This symptom will pass after the first few days and is easily taken care of by the Imodium (immodium).

Whether or not you can get any benzos, the only thing that really helps the leg cramps are hot baths or Jacuzzis – as many as you can stand. I’ve found that Enteric aspirin can help the aches and pains, as well, but not to any dramatic extent.

Sometimes, if you can just get yourself to sleep to begin with, you can make it through the night. When I didn’t have an rx for it, I found a double dose of benydryl helped put me out – it’s also called sleep-eze and is over the counter. But don’t expect miracles. It will either work or it won’t. Don’t increase the dose if it doesn’t.

Now for the interesting stuff:

Go to the health food store and buy a bottle of 100 of the 500mg L-Tyrosine capsules along with a bottle of B6 capsules. Your Norco use has caused your brain to become depleted of several neurotransmitters responsible for your ability to function and feel good. Until these substances are restored, you’ll feel like **** no matter what you do. They will come back by themselves, but it will take a long time. Taking the L-Tyrosine and B6 provides your brain with the raw materials it needs to rapidly create and replenish these vital brain substances. This is how you take it:

Take 4000mg (four-thousand – eight 500mg caps) plus 200 mgs of B6 on an empty stomach, either at bedtime or in the morning. I never have an empty stomach at bedtime, so I have always taken this formula in the morning. Get up early if you can, so you can take the dose at least two hours before you have to leave for work. (Don’t eat any breakfast for at least one hour after taking the dose.) I say two hours because that much L-Tyrosine can go through your system and cause some mild runs, and you certainly don’t want to be in your car when that happens. It’s caused the runs in me about 20% of the time I’ve used L-Tyrosine. Also, the L-Tyrosine, among other things, stimulates the production of norepinephrin (SP?) a neurotransmitter responsible for mental energy, alertness and ambition. So don’t drink any coffee with this stuff!

The good news is that many recovering narcotic addicts feel the difference after the first dose. You can suddenly think straight, your mood turns a bit more optimistic, and, in general, you start recovering your faculties, your energy, your enthusiasm and ambition for living life.

At your state, I’d recommend taking the L-Tyrosine and B6 EVERY morning for the first four days, then every other morning until you don’t feel you need it anymore.

Beyond that, I’d highly recommend some kind of exercise, even if you feel like hell while you’re doing it. It helps get rid of all that tension that builds while you’re pacing the room wondering how you got yourself in this mess. Even just a swift walk will help.

That’s what I know about handling the physical side of this problem. The hardest part to deal with, however, is that thing in your head that made you go on the Norco to begin with. I cannot recommend strongly enough that you seek out and attend some AA or NA meetings. I always get a lot of guff from certain of my friends on the forum for this, but I recommend AA over NA. Why? I can only go by my own experience and tell you that I found a lot more sobriety in AA and a lot more people working stronger programs than in NA. Besides, almost everyone I know in AA is also a pill addict, anyway, so it is not as inappropriate as it sounds. I’m sure there are some fine NA meetings, I just didn’t find any. Granted, I was incarcerated in a residential program and my choice of NA meetings were all in hardcore neighborhoods. Many of these meetings turned into sessions spent listening to homeless heroin addicts begging the other attendees for money, a place to stay, anything. That is definitely not what we go to these meetings for. I say, just seek out the meetings (and a sponsor) that for whatever reason helps give you strength to go one more day without the Norco and go with that.

Just to keep myself honest here, I have been free of Norco or any opiate for about four months, so I still have a lot of challenges ahead of me. My biggest problem is that I liked the benzos so much I became addicted to them and now, every time I try to get off of them (or run out), I have a seizure. Nice, huh? But don’t worry, if you use the benzos just to get off the Norco, you won’t be running this risk.

Just remember: You’ve done nothing of which to feel ashamed. You’re a normal, decent human being who succumbed to a weakness we all, as members of the human race, share…

Good luck, chipper

Write me anytime or post on the forum to let us know how you’re doing.

My e-mail address:
***@****

Thomas

[Thomas]

this is probably uneccessary, and not meant to suggest you're "dim," or anything like that: but the amino acid I recommended you take to restore your brain chemistry compromised by your chronic use of narcotics is L-Tyrosine, not L-Lysine. L-Lysine has been around long enough for most people to have heard of it if not actually used it. A number of posters have confused these two substances. I wanted to make sure you did not do the same. I've found that some pharmacies have L-Tyrosine, but your friendly neighborhood health food store is a better bet. Chipper, if you haven't picked this stuff up yet, I strongly suggest you do. These first few days off of the Norco is the period in which you'll notice the most dramatic difference from the L-Tyrosine. It's important enough to your recovery that, if you haven't gotten it yet, I'd go without breakfast tomorrow and p/u the stuff first thing, along with the B6 (the B6 helps the L-Tyrosine be absorbed for maximum effect). I was literally shocked at how much better I felt after only the first dose. After 4 days of 4000 mg every morning, I felt as if I'd been set free from the "pull" of the Norco, like I could just go on with my life. Of course, it's not that simple. You have ups and downs which, if you used it long enough to be like me, you think of Norco when you're down and think of Norco when you're up and want to somehow sustain or enhance this good feeling with some. The L-Tyrosine will help you resist the urge to relapse. Just don't mistakenly get L-Lysine! Nuff said. Good luck. Let us all know how you're doing. We all share a kinship in our addictions and the suffering we've gone through trying to free ourselves from this chemically induced slavery. You're success matters as much to me as that of any long-time member of the forum. Keep us informed. We care. And, if you relapse, hey, so the F-what? I've relapsed so many times I couldn't begin to count them all up. Many posters tend to write when they're doing well, but suddenly stop writing when they relapse. As if they can't admit that to us! As if they owed us a blessed thing! If you do relapse, it's even more imperative that you write us. Believe me, you'll get no lectures here, you'll just be another member of the Relapse Club, which is only slightly smaller in membership than the Chinese Communist Party. Talk to ya soon.
your friend,
Thomas

[Thomas]

shane, in answer to your post in this thread, if the post you mention went unanswered, whether addressed to me or not, I humbly apologize. I would never intentionally ignore someone in distress or asking for advice or who simply needed to talk to someone who understood what they were going through. It was not intentional. Please forgive me. If it happens again, post it again with big capital letters. Include the fact that you're first post was never responded to. I feel terrible that you were ignored. It goes against my reason for coming here at all.

Is there still anything you wanted to ask or talk about?  I know I'm a little late, here, but if I can help in any way, I would appreciate you giving me another chance.

Thomas

[Angelica]

Now those are the very words, maybe lifesaving, that we want to continue viewing on this forum.  Thomas, excellent job as usual.  If I were chipper, I'd feel there is no other advice from a medical professional or otherwise, that could be as medically thorough, perceptual, & incl. just a dash of genuine concern for your fellow mankind.  This is invaluable, and is needed very much here on the forum.  Please, don't take offense to anyone having the least bit of negativity toward you.  Remember your friends, here. Keep your focus on why it is, that you continue to post here.  It doesn't matter what happens, or what is said, we are right here w/ you.  I was going through my own little problem, here a few weeks ago, and said my emotional goodbyes too, but here I am.  Things have worked out for the better.  We are intitled to change our minds in liue of certain situations, and I have exercised that very option.....and here I am!  ..and you have done so, being compelled to respond to this poster.  This exhibits the genuine concern you have for people, and feeling the need to reach out.  I aggregate your feelings, and truly understand this need.  YOU belong here.  (:
Your friend,
Angelica

[cindi]

AMEN, AMEN AND AAAAAAAAAAAAA MMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNN
Leigh, what a nice post, Angelica you to,,,Chipper, keep your head up hon,, you'll be ok...and Shane,  Like Thomas, i do apologize for not responding  I must have over looked your particlulaar post...I am so sorry,,it's so nice to see everyone geting along..I hoPE we can all be ok now,,,FRIENDS TIL THE END ?lol    LOVE TO ALL CIN

[Thomas]

"on my signal, unleash Hell." remember that line? What a great flick, Gladiator is! I don't blame you for taking your handle from it.

Maximus, after reading your second post, I realized for the first time just what you're facing. I don't know how else to say this, but what you're facing is truly appalling. I don't know how you couldn't be depressed about it. In fact, depressed must be a rather tame word for what you must be feeling. I was truly moved by your situation and feel the greatest compassion for you and your family. As you already know, these situations are never confined to affecting just the patient; they change the lives of the whole family. If "doc dan" failed to give you an effective answer, let me know and we will find someone who can help. I'm not a medical professional but, if there's anything I can do for you - if you just want to talk about good movies, whatever it is, I'm here to help in any way I can.

May god's good graces bless you and your family


Thomas

[Kerrie]

Hi Everyone,
   I was catching up on the last few days. I see that once again things have been said.But just like a few weeks ago when I tried to quit,everyone who cares,cared ! Way to go people. I won't try to call each one by name.You know who you are.People don't want to leave just so someone will beg them to stay.Life happens.When I get upset at the man I love and married 28 years ago,I get hurt and walk away. But love brings us back together.I don't have 28 years with you guys but what time I've been here I have been touched at the depths of my heart and I'm glad you cared enough to ask me not to leave when I was upset.Thank You.
  Maximus,I too have severe chronic pain.Mine is from disease and back surgeries and many other surgeries. I too get frustrated at times.The people here are great listeners.They've been a blessing to me.I will pray for you as I do for these friends I've met here. I hope you get some relief to your suffering.
  Please continue to pray for me friends. my pain is better today but I'm fighting a kidney infection on top of everything else.
  I'm glad you stayed Thomas. God Bless you.
      Kerrie

[Thomas]

I'm glad I did too, if for no other reason than to continue to know classy people like you. I do hope your pain gets better or your doctor finds a better solution for you. I was just talking to a forum regular off-line about oxy and the bad rep it's getting. I was suggesting to her that she considr MSContin with sub-linqual morphine for breakthrough pain. While they certainly could ban or restrict oxy, they're not going to ban morphine. I suggested she not wait until some pharmacist is telling her she has to secial order oxycontin or that her insurance won't cover it anymore or that her doctor has been put on probation for writing too many triplicates for oxy. I was telling her that my relatvely brief experience with MSContin left me with a very favorable impression. Add to that 10 mg. sub-lingual morphine (possibly harder to get unless you're terminal) for breakthrough pain, and I think she would be taken care of with some meds that don't have the notoriety that oxy is acquiring. Just a thought. But I seem to hear more and more about banning oxy. If that were to happen there would be a lot of desperate, withdrawing and "in pain" patients wondering what terrible thing they had done to deserve such treatment. I suggested she be proactive nd she if her doctor could at least give her a trial run on the MSContin, even if she could get the sub-linqual morphine (it'spure morphine, no binder, so it could be easily dsolved inwater andinjected as is, or even snorted. That might make it hard to get. But perhaps something else could be used for breakthrough, like 10 mg. Norco or even a little oxy,who knows; One thing I do know: As a chronic pain patient, you haveto beproactive and look out for yourself. No one is hoverng over your shoulder makijng sure you're taken care of. That much I've learned in thirty years of narcotics addiction.

[maximus]

Thomas, I wanted to explain why the movie Gladiator had so much meaning for me.  I hope I will not offend anyone by taking up space on this forum by telling a little more about myself as I actually am not offering suggestions or help.
     In 1988 I was involved in a car accident with a drunk driver.  The drunk driver only sustained cuts and bruises but I was thrown from my vehicle and it rolled over on me.  It took several hours for emergency folks to get me out.  I was life flighted to a hospital in Houston, Tx.  During the helicopter ride, I died and was resuscitated 3 times.  I suffered a broken back in 2 different places(it was eventually fused with a bone graph from my hip and I was given hardware), a severe concussion, both my collarbones where broken, every rib was broken, both lungs collapsed, I had a partial spleenectomy and my jaws had to be reconstructed.  I was in a coma for 2 weeks.  My family was told that if I lived I would never  walk again, never have children and I would probably only function on a 2nd or 3rd grade level.  Needless to say their predictions for me were wrong.  I walked out of the hospital several months later (albeit with a walker) and underwent a year of rehab and physical therapy to learn how to talk and walk again but I have been blessed in living a very functional life since that time.  After a year and a half, my fusion took so beautifully that I was able to have my hardware removed.  I have always had back pain but have been able to endure.
      I have two beautiful children and a wonderful wife now of 11 years.  As I mentioned, my back was re-injured at work 2 years ago.  I was working on the ground when a forklift load weighing between 600-800 pounds shifted and I tried to stop it from falling.  It was a stupid thing to do but at the time instinct just kicked in and I did it.  My back took the brunt of the fall.  I re-injured it above and below my old fusion.  After several months of tests and treatments, I was told that I would never be able to work in manual labor.  This was a devastating blow.  I had only a previous semester of college and had always supported my family by doing carpentry and maintenance.  Though depressed, I decided to enroll in college for drafting.  I made a perfect 4.0 my first semester and was inducted into a national honor society.  Various treatments for pain continued.  Finally, as sort of a last-ditch effort for pain control I was surgically implanted with an intrathecal morphine pump.  I was high a great deal of the time from the morphine and every time the pump was turned up I was sick for several days.  I had lots of side effects and very little pain management.  I had to drop out of college during my second semester.  They mixed an anesthetic with the morphine but this did not help.  Finally, they changed the medicine in my pump out to Dilautid.  When given enough Dilautid to make my pain tolerable, I could not function.  Knowing that morphine withdrawal is not life threatening (you just wish you could die) I asked my doctors to shut the pump down.  They told me it might be rough but I was determined that I could not live in a fog and with so many side effects.  It was horrible.  I had gone through morphine withdrawal upon coming out of the hospital in '88 but somehow this was a hundred times worse.  I did not realize how addicted I had been to the morphine.  I vomited, poured sweat and had to wrap myself up in a blanket so that I wouldn't hit anyone (I wanted to hurt someone or something badly) for days.  Finally, I went to the hospital and was given stuff to take at home to help.  It was still pure hell for 2 weeks.  My blood pressure went way up and way down and I finally had to take medication for that.  I was tired, dazed and felt really the lowest that I had in my whole life. I really did not want to go on. It was during this hellish 2 weeks that my wife rented Gladiator for me.  I know this sounds silly and I know that it is just a movie, but I was in a "floaty" state of mind and suddenly I felt like I was in the middle of all the fighting.  I felt like a Gladiator who had been fighting so hard for so long.  Maximus endured and overcame--even with a hole in his side at the end.  I can't explain it but suddenly I felt like I could do it and I did not feel sorry for myself anymore.  This intense feeling washed over me.  My wife said I stood up and yelled, "I am Maximus"  Now this is the big joke in our house.  She has now nicknamed me Maximus.  Man, it was rough.
     Now, I am waiting for surgery.  They saved it as a last resort because it is a pretty rough and dangerous surgery.  We still do not have the date.
     It has been so frustrating at times for me and my family.  I know the doctors work hard and try hard but sometimes they leave so much out and are so unaware of everything going on.  I feel at times like a science project or experiment.  I have found that is why it is so important to try to stay informed and on top of things myself.  That is also why I was worried when my wife and I read on one web-site that Methadone and SSRI's can be a deadly combination.  One doctor had prescribed my Paxil (which has been a lifesaver) and a different one had prescribed the Methadone and I could not get either to call me back for several days.  The doctor on this site has now posted a response and my own doctor, although advising me that there are risks does not seem too worried.
     As I may have already mentioned I am now on Methadone (a relatively small dose that I do not intend on abusing) which is the first thing that has helped at all with pain.  Before the Methadone and after the pump was shut down I was eating Extra Strength Vicadin like candy (20-25 per day).  Thomas I do not know how you were even alive on 75 a day.  
      I wanted you to know that we found your information about B6 and L-Tyrosine extremely interesting and printed a copy in case the need ever arises again for its use.  My wife was especially interested as she is studying for a degree in naturopathic medicine, and of course always looks for the least toxic and least invasive ways of approaching health care.
      Thank you for your care and concern for me and my family.  My wife and I have been moved to tears by the positive and encouraging comments from you and others.  It is amazing to us that people you have never met will lift you up over the miles.  We will be lifting all of you up with our prayers and good wishes on this end.  This journey has so many obstacles and we must try to help each other over them.  Also, one of my favorite thoughts is the one about "People are the glove that God's hand touches us with" or something like that.  We have to try and be that glove.
     I am so sorry again for letting my frustrations get the best of me and lashing out but thankful to run across all you folks here.
     God's peace and blessings in each of your journeys.

Maximus

    

[pelle1985]

Well, things certainly have been interesting in the week or so I've been away, haven't they?  Of course, none of it really surprises me anymore. . .as in "real life", a cybercommunity such as this will see the extremes of the best and worst in everyone.  Nice to see that civility appears to have won out again (for now), despite all the negativity.

Been away for a few reasons. . .mainly, just do not have the stamina to read (let alone post) this board after coming home from work the way I have been.  I contacted my HMO several weeks ago, telling them of my symptoms of depression, and was given a June 18 appointment with a psychiatrist.  About par for the course, really, considering I did not seem (and do not feel) like an "emergency" case to them.

Going to work (where I do total care of Alzheimer's/elderly/demented or physically compromised people) eight hours a day is, although spiritually satisfying, also is physically and spiritually debilitating and draining at the same time.  My back, legs, feet, and soul hurt so bad at the end of most days that all I want to do is go to bed after spending a few hours with my family whilst trying not to bite their heads off for no good reason.

I thank everyone again for their good thoughts and prayers for me.  I believe in the power of these things even times, like now, when I cannot particularly feel them.

I have only one thing to add, to any who may be detoxing/withdrawing "at home" from Vicodin or any other narcotic:  please, *please* do not turn to any form of benzodiazepines to "help" you through your withdrawal, unless under the care of an expert physician who fully understands the nature of addiction (and the only example of this I can think of would be an addictionologist, who generally only work in "closed" or inpatient facilities).  Taking benzos to ease your withdrawal amounts only to substituting one drug for another.  If you do this, you may as well just substitute another narcotic or remain on the **** that you were withdrawing from for all the good it will do you. As true addicts, we realize that they have ZERO self-control over ANY mind or mood-altering substance.  We may feel we do at first, but it is only our disease at work, and in the end we are fooling only ourselves.

Lastly, not to sound too "old-school" or anything, but the agony -- physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional -- of withdrawal serves its own purpose in helping us stay clean after we get through it.  If we defer or blunt this discomfort with the aid of other drugs, it is that much easier for us to, at some later point, say, "Hey, that wasn't so bad after all," and we are that much closer to using again -- that is, if we are not already so hooked on benzos that the fear of going "back" to drugs does not even occur to us.

Peace,
Pelle

[Milo]

Hello, sorry to interrupt a thread, but I don't really have a question for the doctor. I just wanted to introduce myself and tell you why I'm posting. After reading this forum for a while, I got the nerve to register & post because I have been truly overwhelmed by what nice, caring, truly decent people so many of you seem to be. I need that in my life right now.
My personal demon is Fioricet. I also take Valium regularly for a severe anxiety disorder. I know I'm dependent on it, but I don't abuse it like the Fioricet. I also rarely drink and do no other drugs (weed maybe three times a year).
I know the dangers of too much acetaminophen and do my best to steer clear of those. I also know not to stop abruptly, etc. And I don't take the Fioricet on a regular basis (but I abuse it when I do take it). I guess what brought me to this forum is feeling like I must be a terrible person for taking this medicine (originally prescribed for severe tension headaches, which I still have). I also hope I may at some point be able to offer help in return. Any thoughts?
Thanks, Milo

[cindi]

Wow,  I am soooooo  sorry you have had to endure such pain,  My God, As a Staff nurse in a very large hospital I have seen people in your shape and worse, and how the staff became so overly excited when at least one of our patients lived through such trauma yet alone walked out the hospital...You are truly a miracle and God surely felt he still needed you on earth.  I have learned over the past few months to not question God,  I came here in search of answers one night shortly after my mom passed away on Christmas morning...I truly at that point in my life thought I could not go on,  i had 2 little kids and a wonderful husband but yet, I was lost and empty with out my mom.  I was very close to her and had taken care of her for a very long time..she was only 61...not to lay anmore of my pain out in front of you, my mom's greatest fear was this...she had livedthrough my addiction, rcovery. relapse period with me and suffered every ounc of my pian right along with me and her only fear of dying was that I would not be ok...she was right,  I was not Ok,  I was hanging by a thread..my heart was shattered, my life had once again turned dark,,,I knew I had to keep on going for my babies and my husband,,I found this forum and I call it my divine intervention,  these people here,  When i first got here, Thomas, JB, Brighty, Annie aka Angelica and a guy named Spook they all As I say  "loved me back to life"  I didn't care what time of day or night it was and there were many all nighters they were here for me, along the way i have picked up Kerrie, wiz, lea, whitedove (and I'm sorry if I left anyone out)that Have all helped me to go on...you have come to the right place...we all did not get off to a great start but in a day or so no one will even remember, we all have something in common, along with addiction we also have pain....be it physical or emotional...I take the advice people give here and I etch it in my heart and my brain..and I RUN with it,  I hear their voices in my head even at work in the daytime I have their words with me...I felt I had lost my faith i did not want to believe in God, I was angry with him (and in a way I still am) and I was in search of something,,,it took this forum and these people to open my eyes and see that I have to go..they have waled with me and held my up during my longest lonliest times,  Mother's day  I received so many e-mails it was unbelievable..my first without my mom,  thery were there for me and we, all of us will be here for you as well my friend     keep posting and may God be with you.....love to all            cin

[cindi]

Hi,  Welcome to the forum,,,my 2nd home  LOL  you are not any different than any of us so please don't beat yourself up...first and foremost you should never withdraw from valium and fioricet cold turkey..it can be very dangerous...it should be done gradually, do you have any way to go the pofessional route?  outpatient or inpatient, can you taper yourself..Thomas is probably the one who can help you the most,,I never really had a problem with barbs/benzos,,,my drugs were the opiates and amphetamines...good luck  chin up as Angelica would say  and May God be with you...love to all cin

[cindi]

Hi Pelle,  It is so nice to see you here again....i was a littl concerned about yousince you last posted....this to shall pass,  easier for me to say than for you I'm sure...but it has always helped me...I have no great words of wisdom like some other people here, no eloquent words...nothing classy but I do have real love in my heart and caring in my soul...be well and God Bless,  you know we are here for you.....love to you and everyone    cin

[cindi]

Hi hon,  i did get your e-mail,,,I have been trying to read the form posts and anser my mail  lately my hands have been hurting so bad,,,it's hard for me to use them lately,,,i don't know what is going on..so if my typing is really bad I apologize....I know you have been haveing a difficult time,,remember though I/we are all here for you....You have helped me immensely  and if had not been for you and the other people here, I would have never fooudn my faith in God again,,,I know the extent of your faith and you are such an inspiration...hang in there,  God be with you    Love to all               cin

[Milo]

Hi Cindi, thanks for the welcome/feedback. I am currently in psychotherapy to try to work through my anxiety, depression, & obsessive-compulsive tendencies. I also have a psychiatrist who prescribes the Valium, and she's good about monitoring my dosage. Since I'm not abusing it (though after many years am definitely dependent), and it does help my quality of life, neither of us feel the need to discontinue. But if I ever do, I know it must be done slowly.
I don't know what it is about the Fioricet, except that it alone allows me to "forget my troubles" and feel "normal" (classic addictive characteristics, hm?) Fortunately none of the other stuff I've ever taken has gotten me high --  not codeine (except the first time), not Vicodin.
BTW, I'm also on Zoloft (which works pretty well for OCD but not so great for depression). That's another one I know I'll have to taper if/when the time comes.
I remember reading that you are/were a nurse -- my hat's off to you! I have a relative & several close friends in nursing, and I admire anyone who can do that job & do it well.
All best, Milo

[Thomas]

ever read spook's elaborate explanation of how you separate non-water soluble tylenol from water soluble hydrocodone? I probably took in the range of 50 to as many as 100 vicodin per day for about two years. On most of those occasions, I used a slightly cruder water method for separating the tylenol from the hydro and just drinking the hydro and dumping the tylenol sediment. Theatrical, I admit, but it worked. Problem was it was inefficient - I still got some tylenol and always missed a bit of the hydro.

Speaking as a drug addict more so than as a pain patient, the thought of a morphine pump was in itself intoxicating. You wouldn't get a complaint out of me as long as you kept my pump turned up! Seriously, I understand it made you sick. Narcotic-inspired nausea is about the worst kind I can remember having.

Hope today has been a good day and glad to hear that some of your procedures appear to be successful. Your post today was a lot more optimistic than yesterday's.

[Thomas]

I don't know what the withdrawal protocl is for fioricet (butalbutal), but I'm learning from hard experience that you want to taper off the benzo as slowly as possible. And I do mean s-l-o-w-l-y. I'm taking the next three months, with the help of, hopefully soon, a psychologist to help me deal with anxiety while I reduce my Xanax. After 3 seizures, I don't think I can stand another.

How to safely withdraw from Fioricet? The only safe way I as a layman can think of is tapering.

Wouldn't hurt to consult an addiction doc before embarking -- that is, if you can find one that knows his business and gives a damn. Sometimes you get one side, other times you get the other.


Good luck,

Thomas

[Milo]

Thanks for the input, Thomas. rest assured I would never stop a benzo abruptly -- I've heard too many horror stories. I've been taking one kind of benzo or another off and on for about 20 years, regularly for the past 10. They do improve my quality of life, and I'm not abusing them, so i imagine I'll be taking them for some time to come.
I've "stopped" the Fioricet (that is, run out) many, many times. When I first started taking it and was using it as directed, that was no problem -- the worst I'd experience was a recurring headache. But now that I've "discovered" its abuse potential, everything is, of course, more complicated.
So I guess right now I'm mainly in a position of wanting to "spill my guts" some people who won't judge or condemn me -- and hopefully be able to offer something in return. As I've looked at this forum, I've been greatly impressed by the kindness, wisdom, and thoughtfulness people have displayed.
Thanks, Milo

[Kerrie]

Hi Everyone,
   Thanks for the letter back Thomas and Cindi. I always appreciate when someone writes back. I know there's a lot going on and new people I feel like need your help a lot. I hope they keep coming back.
   I wrote yesterday under (I think I'm dying) thread. You can read that and it will catch you up on the latest with my daughter. I could use some advice. Take a peek Thomas and you'll  see why your letter to me was so helpful. my neurologist wants me to go to oxycotin but he said it was because I was taking to many hydros a day. Is he for real.I told him I have never increased my dosage in 11 years and didn't feel it was a problem for me but he said it was already a problem for me. I get sick to the point of throwing up if I take enough meds that it makes my head swim. But anyhoo, I told him I don't want him injecting me with anymore shots of botox. They work great for a short time but then he shoots me with 20 to 30 shots of it at a time in my back and it's very nerve wrecking. So I'm putting that off for a while. They didn't help the pain. Only the sensation of touch where they cut me for my spinal surgery. I don't know anything about oxycotin though. I do understand it's long acting. Anything else you can add as far as pain bennifits,anyone?
  Please take a minute and read my letter under (I think I'm Dying) . Is there any chance my daughter can pass a urin test if she smoked pot last week? She goes to her probation officer on Thursday next week.
  Hang in there Milo. You've come to the right place for help and encouragement.
  God Bless you all,
         Kerrie

[Wizard]

Maximus, I read your last post today and you said you and your wife were moved to tears. I just wanted to say that I also am weeping now as I try to imagine what it must be like to be in your shoes. I know I was quick to come to Thomas' defense from your 1st post but I know you understand why now. I said that Thomas had class, integrity and honor. I now say that so do you and your wife. To have gone through so much and none of it being your fault has got to be such a tremendos burdon. I have a long history of chronic pain and back surgery AND addictions. BUT nothing compared to what you have gone though. I have kept my faith in God that HE would not give me more then I could handle, and that faith has helped me along with my friends on this forum and my wife to get clean off opiates. I wanted to tell you that you ARE a REAL Gladiator and your handle of MAXIMUS fits you well. I shall pray for your peace and strength to fight your battle. I welcome you to our family circle and if for nothing else maybe you can accept me for moral support and consider my shoulder yours to lean on. By your example of strength and determination you have caused me to see how very fortunant I really am.God Bless you and your family. May God's Light & Peace be upon you. Stay strong and see the light.
Power & Magick 2 U Brother,
Wizard

[Thomas]

There's no magic formula for fooling the UI tests, I'm afraid. The most successful tactic is to "Hydrate" before the test. That is, when you give them a sample it's as much water by percentage vs. drug metabolites as possible. For two or three days before the test, have your daughter contantly drink water, as much a she can stand to. The night before The test, have her take half a multivitamin to give her urine some normal color. Whatever she does, make sure she doesn't give them the first urine of the day. Get up early enough to urinate several times before going for the tests. When she gives the sample, start the stream in the toilet, not in the cup, fill the cup with what's left.

There are hokey products around that claim to help you pass UI's for pot but I haven't seen any evidence that they work. The best strategy is hydration, hidden by a multivitamin the night before, and don't give them the first pee of the morning or the beginning of the stream. That wil ensure that the ratio of water vs. drug metabolites is as extreme as possible. Only the really sensetive tests can detect anything if you follow these directions. Good luck.

[cindi]

Hi guys,,,,so far my brand new shiny computer is ok,,,some **** with a motmon program causes AOL to freeze...26 bucks a month  for aol...i'm looking into other internet thingys...you know what I mean  LOL  anyway  Thomas  did you ever hear of cranberry juice doing the trick?  i have  a firend who was bound and determined to pass an employment test..now here in Ohio the pre employment tests do not have to be with somone watching, i am not sure about probation..when I was on probation my PO never watched me but...anyway  my friend bought a kit from GNC and drank this stuff,  he ended  up calling me at work,,,,shitting his brains out and then when it turned into all water coming out his butt he was so dehydrated he had no urine to pee out....he was a mess..turns out this stuff was literally a laxative they use to prep you before colonoscopys etc....then he decided to ok.. are ya ready for this?  have a "clean friend" urinate in a condom,,,,tie the condom up  put it in hot water to keep the urine warm,, take it to the testing place in his pocket and when the time came  dump the urine in the specimen container...and voila,,,it worked....NO,  before I get blasted from anyone,  I am not encouraging anyone to do this,,,that is not my point  I am just totally amazed at the things people do to beat the system....I just never used while on probation and my urines were always clean  plus the fact that 3 months after I was put on probation I got pregnant....incentive for me....believe me hon, I am not judging your daughter,,,she has a problem and we know this,,,,my heart goes out to her, as I know what it is like to be the addict that still suffers...I was there....in time sweety this precious daughter of yours will come around as did Brighty's daughter and my mother's daughter.....when she is ready....perhaps paying the consequences may be enough  I don't knwo  but you mentioned that she is looking at three years for 1st offense?  in Mahoning County in Ohio we have drug court  where non-violent offenders looking a jailtime can get treatment  etc....it is an alternate and it really works  they have  a graduation ceremony for those that complet the program and the success rate is awesome.,,,I was considered a 1st time offender because my first time I was caught "diverting" they did not press charges....but I had 6 felonies for theft of narcotics, and they threw in 6 counts of deception to obtain a dangerous drug, also felonies and I was facing 18 months on EACH count....I was looking at Marysville,  a women's prison here AKA known as Johnny mop alley...not for me babe....Hang in there and May God be with you     love to all      cindi

[susanlea]

There is a tea you can buy at GNC. It's pretty expensive, like $34.95, anyway if you drink a gallon of it over a few hours, it's supposed to change your unrine screen. How do I know this? My exhusband is a former police detective, and I've had a few friends swear by it. Good Luck.     Love Susan

[Kerrie]

Hi. Thanks everyone for trying to help me with my daughter. I can't lie to you and say I'm not worried. But I know this is the only way she's ever going to listen. I don't want her to go to jail for 3 years and I've talked to her about getting admitted to rehab for help so they can see she wants to change. Whatever happens I know she needs help and I pray she gets it. But I know I can't do this for her.I talked with her and told her she isn't getting anymore pills on loan or otherwise from me ever again. I'm asking God to help me stand by this. She has a way of manipulating me. Cindi has shared her story with me and it is so helpful from a daughters view. Brighty has shared her daughters story with me and ,again,very helpful to me.Angelica and Wizard are always there to help with words of hope. Thomas is the wise owl I've grown to trust for insight on these drugs and hope for even the most addicted. So,please know how much I appreciate you all. I know there are others that have given me advice too and I don't mean to leave out anyone. I thank you all.Some of us converse more than others and I can recall these easy. I'm only 44 but I have a short memory. Not alzheimers,just oldtimers,as my brothers jokes.
   God Bless,
        Kerrie

[Angelica]

Man alive.......no pun intended!  Thank you for sharing your story, and this might be a good thing to do when you start a group.  We have a lot in common, only you give new meaning to "there's always someones else worse off than, you!" I've only heard that a few hundred times.  Anyway, I was also involved in a mva accident years ago, and had over 28 broken bones(doctors,just stopped counting), and I was literally on my death bed bleeding uncontrollably.  I had a massive pelvic hematoma. Also, it took them several hours to cut me from the vehicle, and I was also air lifted to a hospital.  Given only a few more minutes,and I would have gone into shock or coma due to the loss of blood.  I belive a total of 11 units in a weeks time. My pastor prayed along side my bed, because there was nothing that dr's could do for me, and my family prepared for the worst.  Then, the bleeding just subsided.  A miracle from above, I believe.  Your story gave me chills, and brought back memories of my own.   you have come to a very good place.  Eventhough things got off to a rocky start, you'll be most glad in discovering this place. If your interested go to the thread titled Narcotics for chronic pain(to spare everyone the details again) and click here(i don't know how to make it a hot link) to read some of the ordeals i've had to endure:Comment By:  on Tuesday, April 17, 2001

http://www.arronb.virtualempire.com/main/painpolitics/quote.html

You may find this site interesting, and there are a lot of people that you can relate too, I also belong to other groups RE: chronic pain, if there is anything I can do, let me know.  
Many Blessing to you, and yours:
Angelica(formerly annie)

[cindi]

hey there,,,,,where ya'll been hiding?   LOL  was wondering about you......are you stealing all of Ohio's warm weather?   we are so cold and wet,,,yuk    hey  still find reason to eat al the food for our annual picnic....LOL  so we eat in the garage or the house but  we still have the picnic,,,,every year the weather is lousy..have a great day       love cin

[Thomas]

I had no idea you'd been through so much. I admire you for surviving with your spirit and sense of humor intact. I'm contantly amazed at what people endure just to hang on to the gift of life on more day ...

[cindi]

My "story" is really very long,,,LOL   sometimes, we just have no choice but to go on...you sir, are to be admired and respected...you have struggled for such a long time with addiction....and the willingnes and desire to get clean is what matters most which you display proudly........love to you my friend      cin

[Kerrie]

Hi Maximus,
   I am glad you came back to the forum and everything was straightened out. That shows character on everyones part. I'm sure you've already seen you can find this forum a great place to talk to caring people. I am amazed at the amount of injury you and Angelica have been through. I know how hard it is to live with pain. I just wanted to tell you your in my prayers and I encourage you to come here and talk. I come here and say way too much.But their always kind enough to listen and reply. These friends have been a light in a sometimes dark place. I have a supportive husband but I feel like at times he is just tired of it all. He never has said that,just my emotions probley.But I can come here and talk to others who know what I'm talking about. I came seeking help for my daughter and found a place of comfort for myself. God bless you and hang in there.
   I wanted to tell everyone that my daughter and her family came for dinner today and she looked good. She told me she didn't know how messed up she was on the pot. She said she's thinking better and feeling more energy.Still in denial about the pills. She said their prescription so it's not a big deal. Yeah, right.
But this is a step in the right direction.
   God Bless,
         Kerrie

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I dropped in to see how things have been going lately. I'm pleased to see that all my old buddies and a few more are here. As for Maximus, wow! You are indeed superb! I read your post about how you got your nickname. You have been to the other side of existance and that is something that has to be experienced for anyone to be able to recount. I've been there, too. In spite of terrible wounds to the body, we live! Your fighting spirit will prevail when the body fails and you will be remembered by all those that you have touched with that spirit.

I wish that I could say more but my vision has been failing me and things tend to get blurry.  I wish eveybody nothing but the best.  Peace and strength to you all!  J.B.

[cindi]

I have missed reading your posts very much.....you are a very wise man and one to be respected....with your values, courage and strength through all you endured and are enduring......My prayers are with you and Marty..please,,send her love from us...and I know Angelica won't mind when I say us, meaning her and i...God bless you and I hope you feel better soon my friend   love cin

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Thank you for being so nice! You and Angelica are marvelously caring, compassionate people. It's so neat to be able to come here once in a while and be able to relax and take a break from my own private hell and hear some kind words! Now I feel that I can start my day with a smile on my face and head held high.  J.B.

[cindi]

May God be with you and Marty      Love cin

[Angelica]

Have you been taking those little jogs lately. LOL  I just ordered the Bun and thigh rocker....LOL  Also, we are getting an above ground pool.  Then low and behold, I've found a new pain doctor who wants, not only to prescribe (maybe)medication, but to get inside my brain(phsychiatric evaluation), and put me through rigorous physical rehabilitation......Well, Jb just when you think you have it all figured out, someone puts a mickey in your plans.....I hate physical rehab, but if that's what I gotta do, I guess I have no choice.  Hope your well, lately???  Nice to see ya post!
Love,
Angelica

[Kerrie]

I wanted to mention everyone by name that I could.I wanted to tell you that my daughter has vowed to get off the drugs. All of them.She went to her probation officer yesterday,a day early, because she got a call at the last minute to do so. The night before I did buy her some of the drink from GNC like was mentioned by someone here. She took it. Then when she got there she was given her instructions,do's and don'ts.She was informed she would be sent to Georgia to do time if she broke her probation or failed to pay her fine.Then she was asked if she was willing to have a drug test.She agreed and had to sign a paper. Then the probation officer told her if she'd keep her nose clean she would give her low maintenance probation in July.She then told her she could go. No drug test !!!!! The best part is she has to go to drug NA or AA. She is weaning herself off the hydros she says. I told her I will pray for her but she has to prove herself to me this time. I'll support her anyway I can if it's bennificial. I have been down the I promise you road before. I just have to pray that she means it this time.She says she feels so much better being off the pot.
  Now I have been going for a lot of tests. The doctors are concerned my disease is no longer in  remission. They said I have outlived anyone they have known with this disease. I don't believe they'll find it. I can't even keep up with my appointments I've got so many. Tomorrow I'm off to Nashville for IVP. I have stones. Lucky me. But keep me in your prayers. My daughter gets very worried when the doctors start these tests because we know it's fatal. But then when the tests came back good before ,she returned to doing everything. I'm praying that won't happen this time.  
  I may be too tired for a few days to write but I'm reading. I really don't think they'll find my disease is active again.But just keep me in your prayers anyway. I need them to keep from going insane from all these tests.
  It's great how you all took Maximus under your wings. Keep up the good work.Cindi,I hope your feeling better.Angelica,I'm happy you found a good doctor.God sure is good to us, isn't He?
    God Bless,
          Kerrie

[Thomas]

I've never been very religious but I'm 'learning to talk to god in AA. When we say the next closing prayer, I will be praying for you and your daughter.

All my best to you.

Thomas

[Wizard]

Kerrie I'll keep praying for you and your daughter. Never give up hope and don't despair. It sounds like there might be a little Divine intervention going on here. Maybe each time she gets a little closer to the light!  You know MIRACLES do happen :-) Keep the faith and remember WE are are here for you  (the little angels that we are). God bles you and your family.
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace and Light on us all,
Wizard

[Angelica]

.......Just look at what an inspiration you are...you've got us all praying....LOL  Hang in there...Your on the top of the list tonight!
Love and many blessings
Angelica

[Angelica]

Your awesome, and just an all around nice (open-minded) guy!  
Thank you for the nice complement Re; Noel....Were you reading my mind....I was asking myself the same questions...I think you hit the nail on the head in that response.

[Wizard]

Just wanted to say hi to you. Was a long hot (107 degrees) day today and I didn't post much. Back hurting me but I went back and read your story to Maximus and I just don't feel so bad anymore. God bless you for your strength and example Angelica.
Power & Magick Wizard dust 2 U :-),
Wiz

[Wizard]

I meant your story to Noel & Maximus. You ARE the warrioress!!!
Peace & Light on you,
Wiz

[cindi]

Hi Kerrie,  ya know,  I just hate myself sometimes...I had such a horrid day yesterday..It was such a "mom" day.  and you, one of those people here i care so much about are in such need of help and prayers....Kerrie,  right now as I sit here and type this all out,,,one more time the tears won't stop but this time they are all for you, and through e-mail as with all of my friends here I have come to know and love you as if ou live in my own back yard...between Sweet Angel Angelica the wonderful wonderful Wiz he IZ, Thomas the wiseman and myself if we all talk to God  one at a time he has really no choice but to her us now does he?  I have to get to work same ol story late again and I'm in charge today..yippee..I love you and I will pray so very hard for you my dear...Love to all  cin

[Angelica]

Thank you ever so kindly sir....LOL  I know i've read it somewhere before, but can not recall what exactly happend to your back???  Do you have access to a pool?  This happens to be the best exercise for people w/ injuries, because of the no weight baring factor.  This is what helped me to walk again years ago, after being immobile for 4months.  
I have to tell you.....how inspiring it is to hear that I am a warrioress....LOL  My family takes my success for granted.  My doctors remind me often, of what a miracle recovery I've had, and People like you remind me of that!  Thank you, truly!
....and you too Cin!!!!  What great friends, i've found here.
Love you guys........
Angelica

[Wizard]

Angelica, to answer your question, yes I am lucky enough to have a pool and you are very right in that it does relieve the pressure on the back.  My story goes something like this: I was a competitive runner all through my late teens to late 30’s. My running caused me to have sciatica problems. I had migraines for years and had a script for Vicodin ES. I found that it also eased the sciatic pain so instead of treating the cause I treated the pain, which allowed me to continue running races. Around age 38 or so I injured my knees and instead of resting them and treating the cause, again I masked the pain with the hydro. As Thomas can attest to, great drug that hydro. I found myself using it for everything. The headaches, sciatica, knees, bad hair day you name it I used it as a cure all. (Familiar picture to anyone?) Well my knees got progressively worse until I couldn’t walk up the stairs let alone run. My Doctor and trainer said that I couldn’t run again and that I’d need surgery. But no, not me I said, I switched sports from being a skinny runner to becoming a huge power lifter/body builder. Well that actually helped build up my knees but not the depression from missing the running and competition. Well the opiates still fooled me into not being depressed or so I thought and my tolerance levels continued to climb. So, I started taking more hydro and percs to reach that elusive “runners high” that I missed so much. I eventually got serious about the weight lifting and kicked the “Dragon” usage. For a couple of years only using when I had the migraines. Then one evening I was doing squats with 350lbs. on my shoulders no problem. When I was done, believe it or not, I went to the front yard and bent over wrong to pull out a stinking weed from my lawn. I felt a pop and went to the ground and couldn’t get up.  My right foot was numb and the pain down the back of my leg wouldn’t go away. First thing I did was go back to the Percs and Hydros.  Long story short (ya right LOL), I blew out two disks, one of which was pressing against my sciatic nerve. Lots of opiates and months later I finally had an MRI and they determined that if I didn’t have my disks removed I’d do permanent damage to the nerves. Well, I had the surgery and got LOTS more opiates AND a new one for me SOMA….another great high mixed with the hydro. I became depressed more now because my weight lifting career was also over. Endless circle. I now got my feeling back in my foot and leg but I have backaches every day I never had before the surgery. Big trade off. So, back to the hydro and soma  and enter oxy! Mix them together at high dosages and you get the Wizard for the last 3 years a slave to the “Dragon” at 47 years old. That was, at least until a month ago, when I said no more and found this site and told my wife about my problem.  That’s my story. I’m now clean and pray that I stay that way. It goes to show you that addiction can happen to anyone anytime. I loved the high too much and had to just put it away and deal with the pain the best I can. I’m much more fortunate than some of you after reading your stories. I can walk and some can’t. I thank God every day that I found my way out of the “Dragon” pit.  I’m sorry to have rattled on so long but I think this is the first time that I’ve told the whole story. God bless all of you for bearing with me. I’m on the road back swimming, walking and biking something that I haven’t done in a long time. It was easier to take the painkillers and feel sorry for myself.  Now, I found the magic of life again and I don’t want to let it slip through my fingers again.
You are all in my prayers,
Power & Magick 2 U,
Wizard      

[Angelica]

WOW!...Thank you, and don't apologize.  Very interesting.  One thing I'm worried about, and something you've stated, has caught my attn.  You said that you were taking the pills for headaches, also.  Well, I have chronic sinus problems, partly hereditary, and due to a damaged septum from the mva....which was corrected through sinus surg  a few yrs ago.  Well, needless to say, I take medication on and off for this, and now since i've built a tolerance up....nothing will work on these severe sinus headaches, but (you guessed it) the pain meds.  One amazing thing, is that my sinus problems haven't been acting up lately, but you know this is another factor we all need to take into consideration: it's like a trade-off w/ the devil or something, or actually a bitter sweet situation, because you get this great relief, but will have to depend on it for everything, and anything that comes up....once you've started taking these strong pain medications......plain old Tylenol, just won't cut it.  Another issue, which I mentioned to Tom a while back, is when you go into surgury(emergency or otherwise).....your soooo tolerant to pain meds, that they will have to titrate your pain medication, and then you suffer through this.  I went through this a couple of months ago, when I had the hardware removed from my leg.  I was only given 5mg of hydro, and this was a very painful surg.  I was delirious from the pain(for 3 days 24hrs around the clock)....it was terrible, and my doctor said that this was all he could prescribe.....so I was virtually toughing it out, because the hydros did nothing.  This was frightening, and misery to say the least.  But there you have it.....the 5mgs was fine for the pre-surgery pain, but not enough post surgery.  I felt like I was living in pre-historic times, or just left to heal out in the dessert or something....lol
Well, I've gotta tell ya: "your pretty tough, yourself!"  I mean you still battle this pain..mainly on your own.  I will tell you this, and I hope it helps....I had a torn acl, bone spurs and  arthritis about a year ago, and underwent arthroscopic knee surgery.....I walked on this knee for years w/ all of this damage, and the only medication that seemed to help was Naprosyn...actually Aleve is better because it's formulated to work faster, and there are no official studies, but it seems to have cartalidge building properties to it.  My husband has a torn cartl., and this is what he takes, and he's back on his feet in no time.  I just wish it worked as well, for everything else.....I guess you become somewhat tolerant to everything, taken long enough.  Well, Wiz.....  Certainly got it all figured out.  My hats off to ya!  Hang in there....You are definately an inspiration to me.
Love and many blessings
Angelica

[Wizard]

Hang in there I will, for sure darlin! I went down the Naprosyn road and it didn't do much for me. i just got approved by my insurance for Vioxx finally after fighting for a month with them. It seems they would pay forever on the opiates but get something non-narcotic that you take once a day and it cost's more @ $140.00 for 30 pills, and I had to jump through hoops. It kinda pissed me off that the decision to authorize it was being made by non medical clerical people. They turned it down and I called them myself and threw a flaming fit on the phone LOL. I asked the person what her medical degree was and she said she didn't have one. I said "Ohhhhh, I see, you'll pay for me to get addicted and high but not to get well? I got the silence treatment a minute. I asked her are you gonna pay for my funeral?  Bottom line I got a letter saying that they would pay for my Vioxx for life as long as I was on the plan LOL. What I've been doing is alternating the Vioxx and 1600mg of Motrin which seems to get me through the days when I'm bad. I don't take them both on the same day though. Any way it seems to make it tolerable, just no high from it. The 1600mg motrins work fairly okay for the headaches too. I just have to learn how to relive my life "Dragon" free! Thank God I have had an iron cast stomach LOL.  Angilca, YOU keep inspiring as you do also.
I'll be praying and casting good Wizard dust on ya!
Power & Magick 2 U,
luv 2 all,
Wiz

[cindi]

You guys are too cool  wow,   alot of pain,,,I admire you both so much,,,pain management if a nasty thing when yiu are an addict but i just talked with someone tonight who said her non addict hubby has ben on percocet for while now and they are making him irritable,,today he did not take any and went into withdrawals....i have been on Norco and Vicodin for awhile for this pain that FINALLY has been partially diagnosed  waiting for an MRI of my back....rule out blown discs....I know when the time comes to get off the vis I will have to taper...hard to do but I'll have to ....Wiz, you have no clue how much of an inspiration you are to me.....you have fought this on your own,,,and Angelica,  you are proof it can be done with going overboard...I have had a really really difficult 2 days....very sad,,,crying alot and missing my mom so very much....on the 25th it will be six months I have not seen my mom,, I can eat all the pills in the world but the pain is not gone....tell me if this is normal...for the past week of two I have been totally overprotective of my daughter,,,,,I have actually been so afraid something is going to happen to her while I am not there,,,that is one of the reasons I went to the zoo with her....I am not so fearful of my son because he is with me 24/7  he comes to work with me and everywhere I go....so he is safe with me....all though tomorrow he is going to chuckie cheese with a teacher at the pre-school am I scared?   terrified, but he will be ok there....I have this feeling of doom or something...I'm sure it's a passing thing...thought I was developing Some obsessive disorder or something...well, I've babbled long enough.....I love you guys   cin

[Kerrie]

Hi. I'm so very tired after being on the road at 6:30 this morning to go to the doctor. I didn't plan to write tonight,just read. But I can't do it. Your kind words are so uplifting and I just had to tell you how much I appreciate all your prayers. I want to tell you with all my heart I believe I'm going to be alright. I wish I had this much faith in my daughter. But I will keep supporting her like each of you do me.
  Wizard, I read your story and I'm am very proud of you. What determination you guys have. I have degenerative disk disease and  I though my back was the only thing on me that wasn't broken until I had the Cyst on the spinal chord. It didn't hurt. I just suddenly went paralized one day.Then it turned out to be the cause of my horrible headaches. So they did surgery and now I have back problems to boot. Then a poor excuse for a doctor, did a bone marrow biopsy in my back at the T12 L1 level. Blew it out.
I attempted to make him pay for his stupidity but quickly learned that all doctors stick together. Long story short. My back is a mess. I went from jogging 4 miles a day and arobic exercise to 220 lbs of pain. I can't bend over. My legs are still weak but I can walk,so thank God.But we bought an above ground pool so I could get some exercise. But would someone send some warm weather our way. It's the coolest May I've seen in Tennessee in 18 years.
Now I've lost down to 180 to 185 lbs. and maybe God thinks I deserve a break somewhere besides my bones. Just kidding. I don't deserve anything but a good spanking now and then. I just admire your courage to go without the pain meds. I can't bear the pain in my back.
  Thomas, I'm glad your a strong advocate for AA. I've known them to be good for a lot of people. I printed off the 12 step program and gave it to my daughter. I imagine it's in the garbage somewhere. I read it though,it's inspirational for sure. I do believe in prayer. God has seen me through so much , and when I underwent the two surgeries that lasted 10 and 12 hours, I prayed God would take my fear away. The day of each surgery, I was more worried about the I.V. than how long the surgery would take. He is an awsom God. I thank you for your prayers.
  Cindi, You are going through a very normal time hon.When my father died, I didn't think I would ever quit crying.Your going to be fine. You have a strong faith and love and concern for others. I have asked God to return your joy to you and ease your pain. You've heard the old saying. I was sad I had no shoes until I saw a man that had no feet? Your sad because you lost someone you dearly loved. How wonderful it is to have that kind of relationship with your mom. I miss my mom a lot. But I wish I had  had a relationship with her like you had with your mom. But I know some people never had what I had. They never knew their moms at all. You hang in there. Your very normal.
  Angelica, You inspire me as always. I know you suffer with chronic pain as I do. But your concern for others is always what I hear from you. Do you ever complain? Your making me look bad girl. I wish I had your stamina. Your truly a friend in deed. God bless you.
  Bless you all. I will shut up now. I just wanted to tell you all how great you are. Friends are people who come in when the whole world has gone out. Thank You.
     God Bless,
          Kerrie

[Wizard]

Don't you dare shut up girl! Talking, helping, unloading and praying for each other is what this forum is for.You are so very right about the man with no shoes. There is ALWAYS someone in worse shape then ourselves. You have been through so much and yet you also continue tto keep your faith and go on with life. I admire you tremendously lady. The Wizard here will keep you in his thoughts and prayers. Kerrie, you just keep on keeping on!
You've got angels in your corner!
Power & Magick 2 U,
Peace & Light on ya,
Wiz

[cindi]

Kerrie,  I am so glad to hear from you....you have been on my mind...send me some mail and let me know what went on with your testing?   Get some rest, that is what you need right now,,,You deserve it....God is with you.....and I have said a prayer and  many for you and your daughter....and everyone else here....You will be fine,I know you will...and so will your daughter,  It takes times for us to see the light...one day soon she will have a complete change come over her..I can see the changes now when you talk of her....the miracle is happening now only it takes time.   Ohio has not sunshine for the past week,  we alos have had the coldest may that I can remember...but the summers can get down right nasty  with the high humidiy which is a whiner like me's worst enemy...LOL   I don't know how the hell I'm gonna stand Florida... ahhhhhhh  but the Ocean, the sand, the shells, suntans, palm trees, sleeping in the pool when my dad takes the kids....    I CAN handle it  LOL   and I can finally be with my dad....funny, when we are younger we need to get away from the master parents,  LOL  now I need to be with him....I'll tell ya what we need this weekend,,,we need to not be so serious and let loose.....Ok   Did ya hear about the blonde...(sorry blondes) that thought ROE vs WADE was the decision that George Washington had to make when he crossed the  Delaware?   ROFLMAO     OKEY DOKEY    AHEM>>>>>>>>>   have a great day  catch ya'll later  Love to all   cin

[susanlea]

I have been thinking about you the last couple of days. This Monday the 4th will be 4 years ago my mom died of cancer. I know this will not really help you when I say this, but time does heal the pain. My mom was diagnosed with brain cancer Jan. 4th 1997, she was 68 years old. She had surgery to remove the tumor, she refused chemo and radiation. They told her she had 6 months at the most. During this time my mother  had the most fun she had ever had. She became a very loving and wonderful mom and grandmother. As the months went by, she began to forget things, who we were, where she was. Finally we put her in Hospice. She lived in Pinellas County Fla. There she said she was so happy, she had her garden and her angels. When her time came, she went with such peace. We in the family were so lucky that she never suffered. No pain, nothing. It was hard at first, the first year or so. There is no pain imaginable, no pain so permenant, no pain so awful, as losing your mother.  One day I woke up, and the sadness had lifted alittle. As the months went by, it got better and better. Now when I think of my mom, I smile, I remember how wonderful she was. When I go to my parents grave (my day died in 1988 from the same thing) I feel such peace. The pain never goes away, but it does change. On monday when we go to Arlington Cemetary to see my mom and dad. My little boys will each take a helium balloon and send it up to heaven to them. This has been a ritual all these years for them. They were so small when she died that this was the only way I could get them to understand where they were. Look inside yourself, remember all the good and wonderful things she taught you. She gave you compassion and love, because I see it everyday here from you to others. Your ability and understanding, wanting to reach out and help others all stem from how you were brought up. I see your mother as a very special woman, she gave the world you. In time you will find peace. I am here for you always.....Much love to you Cindi....Susan

[cindi]

My God, what would I do without you guys here,,,you are so warm and caring..my mom suffered for so long,  i stayed in Ohio to take care of her especially since my sister moved out of state....She siffered unitl about 12 hours before her death...it eats at me that I was not with her,,but wiz and everyone else have helped me to understand that It was meant for me not to be with her when she died..for reason unknown to me....I just hope she is not angry with me for not being there at the hour of her death....I had been there when she went into the coma and she hung on all night and died in the morning...the hospital called me on christmas eve and said she would not make it till morning to stay home and take care of my gramma and my family,  mom had no knowledge of what was going on....they called in the morning and said to come up she had taken a bad turn  I knew what that meant  I'm the nurse that always got elected to call the family and we were not allowed to say the patient died  so I knew,,,,I made it too late,,,she died before I got there,....I live with guilt all though my friends here have made it easier for me to deal with....I feel better at the cemetary but now i am selling her house, my childhood home...her memories, her life, and picking out a tombstone...i cannot handle too much more.....today and the past few days the pain is overwhelming...i broke down at the skating ring yesterday at my daughter's skating party  they played a song from when my mom and I used to go skating and it was too much...little things like that..now I am moving away and once again i feel guilty for leaving her behind....why?  i feel i may never be as i was before,,,a piece of me died when my mom died....my spirit is broken but I have my kids and my husband....they are healthy and I am blessed...I just can't believe it has been almost 6 months since I have seen my mom,,,i would talk to her a few times a day and she lived 2 minutes from me..anyway.. I have to go,,,this is just too hard right now....thank you for listening to  me babble again......I love you all   cindi

[Kerrie]

Thanks so much for your concern and kind words my friends. You help me so much.Thanks for all the prayers. I can always tell when I'm being prayed for. I have a feeling of strength and warmth and well being. You'll never know how much you help me.But someday God is going to say "Well done my child, well done".
  Cindi,keep talking.Don't stop. When you feel the tears coming, let them flow. It is part of the healing process. I still break down and cry when I least exspect it. Things that remind me of my dad,my grandmother,my mom. But thank God I have those memories. I know you can't understand it right now, but the tears will come leass frequent as time goes on. The pain will not be as strong.It's like after you have surgery. The pain you have when you first awake is so horrible and you can't imagine how anything that painful will feel better in a few weeks. To the point that it's all a memory. Now you remember the pain and you have a scar from it but you've made it through the hard part and now your better. As time passes ,you regain your strength and become stronger and stronger. (

[Kerrie]

Thanks so much for your concern and kind words my friends. You help me so much.Thanks for all the prayers. I can always tell when I'm being prayed for. I have a feeling of strength and warmth and well being. You'll never know how much you help me.But someday God is going to say "Well done my child, well done".
  Cindi,keep talking.Don't stop. When you feel the tears coming, let them flow. It is part of the healing process. I still break down and cry when I least exspect it. Things that remind me of my dad,my grandmother,my mom. But thank God I have those memories. I know you can't understand it right now, but the tears will come leass frequent as time goes on. The pain will not be as strong.It's like after you have surgery. The pain you have when you first awake is so horrible and you can't imagine how anything that painful will feel better in a few weeks. To the point that it's all a memory. Now you remember the pain and you have a scar from it but you've made it through the hard part and now your better. As time passes ,you regain your strength and become stronger and stronger. (

[Kerrie]

My computer went nuts and it posted without my doing it !
  Anyway, I 'll finnish my thought.
  Your a kind loving person with much to give.You will be better in time Cindi. Dreary days and holidays are easy days for us to get depressed. Stay busy and keep sharing.
  I use to live in Lakeland,Fl. I was between Disney World and the beach. When will you be moving? It will be good for you to be close to your father. You have much happiness ahead of you. I know Wizard and Angelica and many others are praying for you and God answers prayers.
  I will e-mail you about my test yesterday.
  My daughter was mad because I wouldn't keep her boys today. She was either stoned or high on some other drug. She really wants to change and I know she will someday. With all the prayers going up for her she'll either change or be very miserable. I believe she will see the light. In time.Remind, in time.
     God Bless,
         Kerrie

[susanlea]

Stop beating yourself up about not being there. Maybe that was your mom's way of making it easier for you. My mom died 4 days after I left her in Fla. I thought for sure I would see her again in two weeks. My sister lives there and I would go down from Va. every 2 or 3 weeks over 5 months. I believe my mom didn't want me to have to do that again. My dad died an hour after I left him in hospice. I truly believe when their moment comes, whether they are concious or not, their spirit knows what's going on. If you feel like you have somethings left unsaid, talk to her. I've said before, my mother is my guardian angel, she is with me always. I feel her as much today, as when she was with us here on earth. I truly believe that some people, especially those with a terminal illness, see the angels. My mom would talk to hers, tell us all about her, how beautiful she was, and her name was Rafael. Strange thing, my mother was never religious at all, we never said grace, no prayers. But in her last months here, she believed. Just remember your mom is in a better place, no more pain, she's with other's she loved, her mom, her dad. She's just watching over you.  Love you....Susan