Prescription downers/ Vicoden/ Soma

[Jim]

My question probably seems so trivial to everyone yet it means the world to me. My wife of 4 months (we've known each other 2 years) has an addiction to "Downers". She was very up-front with me about this after her divorce. Her ex-husband was/is the type of person that would readily supply the drugs then have sex and vidio tape the episodes. I'm really ashamed to have to turn to a forum like this for help but with a certain amount of anonyminity I'll continue. For the past 6 months I have provided my wife with daily Vicoden and have caught her getting Soma from her "so-called" friends. Well, it has all come to a head. I love her very much and I believe her when she says she love me too. This weekend we have decided to go drug free. All hell has broke loose!! She doesn't drink, smoke pot or do anything other than downers. She claims she has severe depression. After having a few heart to heart talks about things that happened in her past, not only under the influence but straight, I believe she has that right. My question is not how to keep from killing her for the things she says to me now (just kidding) but how to cope with this addiction. How long will these moods last? We agreed to stock up on Advil because she really wants to beat this addiction. In short HELLLLLPPPPPPPP!!!!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I posted here some time ago asking about Lorcet and Soma. I was told that it can be a very dangerous combo and was warned not to drive on it. I can tell you that Soma is changed by the body to a tranquilizer called meprobamate and adding an opiate to the mix can cause quite a buzz.
Is your wife in real physical pain or just mental pain? Maybe you should both consult with an addiction specialist before things get even more haywire around there. Just a thought for you to ponder! Feeding more drugs to an addict is not the way to cope with the problem in my opinion. Neither is just decideding to become drug free overnight. You have withdrawal problems to deal with plus even more depression. I wouldn't fool around with your wife's health so flippantly.

[Jim]

Thank You JB. I'm sorry if I seemed "flip" about this all. Addiction specialist? Yes the ultimate answer would probably be to check her in to an in-patient treatment center. My wife is a professional woman, as am I, and will not check herself in to any facility for treatment of this type. She maintains she is, with my help and support, strong enough to overcome whatever physical and/or mental hardships it puts on her. I just don't think she realizes the mental strain her behavior is having on me. We have went to Drug Counseling in our area. Obviously it was not what we were seeking because everyone else there was Court ordered to be there which only made my wife that much more nervous for fear of being seen by people she has to deal with in her profession. The majority of the people were ordered there to regain custody of their children. What type of therapist would specialize in this type of addiction? What type of help should be sought? How confidential do the matters of this nature stay? I came to this site looking for answers to questions that I just can't walk into a Doctors office and fill out their intake forms and hand back to the receptionist and get the answers to. Again thank you I'll continue my search.

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

You didnt say if your wife suffers from physical pain or not.
Also, how long and how much etc....
I quit taking vicodin 3 years ago when I moved out of state and away from my wonderful doctor that actually cared about my pain and suffering and just stopped cold turkey after taking 7.5 mg. of vicodin and I am not talking 1 every 4 hours. I am talking 2 or 3 every 4 hours for my pain. I didnt have the courage to tell my doctor that they didnt work good enough anymore and I had to double and triple on the dose. Anyhow, I did just fine without them. Well....the pain was there of course but I didnt bounce off the walls or anything like that. I may have had some withdrawls that compared to nicotine withdrawl but I may have been lucky or just plain old not addicted. They never really consumed me. I never looked "forward" to taking them.....yet I didnt resent taking them either. If I were that obsessed I wouldnt have moved away from my doctor....(kidding!) Oh and watch that advil.......that is all I take for chronic pain and I am starting to see the results. BRUISES FROM NOWHERE!!
I know that advil is actually more dangerous for your liver with long term use. Please hang on with this forum. THere are many people that will answer you soon enough that know first hand how to deal with this since seeking professional help is out of the question for you. Check back again in a few hours and I can almost guarantee there will be more advice posted for you!  I dont post much on here but I do read them alot.
Good luck!!

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

You didnt say if your wife suffers from physical pain or not.
Also, how long and how much etc....
I quit taking vicodin 3 years ago when I moved out of state and away from my wonderful doctor that actually cared about my pain and suffering and just stopped cold turkey after taking 7.5 mg. of vicodin and I am not talking 1 every 4 hours. I am talking 2 or 3 every 4 hours for my pain. I didnt have the courage to tell my doctor that they didnt work good enough anymore and I had to double and triple on the dose. Anyhow, I did just fine without them. Well....the pain was there of course but I didnt bounce off the walls or anything like that. I may have had some withdrawls that compared to nicotine withdrawl but I may have been lucky or just plain old not addicted. They never really consumed me. I never looked "forward" to taking them.....yet I didnt resent taking them either. If I were that obsessed I wouldnt have moved away from my doctor....(kidding!) Oh and watch that advil.......that is all I take for chronic pain and I am starting to see the results. BRUISES FROM NOWHERE!!
I know that advil is actually more dangerous for your liver with long term use. Please hang on with this forum. THere are many people that will answer you soon enough that know first hand how to deal with this since seeking professional help is out of the question for you. Check back again in a few hours and I can almost guarantee there will be more advice posted for you!  I dont post much on here but I do read them alot.
Good luck!!

[tom to J.B.]

how am I doing?

well ... I'm really going round the mulberry bush trying to find an addiction specialist involved in opiate agonist therapy. After a little more checking, I determined that the doc I was going to see on Monday is not an addiction specialist and really just wanted my business.
I'm thinking of switching gears and looking for a pain management specialist. Certainly easier to find.
Until then just keep'n on ... hope you and your wife are well.

[tom to Doc Dan]

hey, Dan. I need your help. I live in Orange County, Southern California, and I'm running into a brick wall trying to find an addiction specialist licensed to practice opiate agonist therapy. Buprenorphin is still illegal here and the closest methadone clinic is way too far away to make a daily commute remotely practical. Does anyone you know on your end have any suggestions, names, phone numbers? Thanks in advance. Hope you're doing well.

[tom to Doc Dan]

I took another look at the map, and I'm going to try the nearest Methadone clinic and see if I can work something out re the commute. Do they ever give take-homes for the weekend?

[tom to Jim]

your post epitomizes the spouse at the first stage of trying to understand and deal with their partner's drug addiction. You both being professionals, in a way, can work against you if it reinforces the belief that you are both "above" the mundane reality of addiction, that your wife doesn't need the same kind of help as "the rest." One of the hardest truths for me to accept was that, in the context of addiction, I was not special in any way. I don't know how many times I tried to explain to doctors and assorted medical personnel that my case was unique, that I needed a recovery program designed to address my problem and no one else's. The memory of this is still good for a laugh.

What you need now, Jim, is knowledge. Realize that nothing in your experience has prepared you for what is almost certainly coming. The best thing you can do for yourself and your wife is to make contact with an AA group, one for your wife, one for you (called al-anon, for spouses of addicts). Why AA?  Drugs, booze, it makes no difference - I am an opiate addict like your wife and also a professional, but AA is where I really connected with my fellow addicts.
The point is, there is a lot you need to learn and un-learn before you can really help your wife. You will discover that your story is everyone's story. You are starting down a well-beaten path that has already been mapped from beginning to end. I would start by getting hold of the "big book" of AA and reading the biographies therein.

4 months into your marriage, what you do now will set the tone for how you and your wife face this problem for years to come. Save time and get smart now. Contact the folks that have been down this road of ours. Be prepared to hear things you won't like. Whatever you do, keep posting on this site. There are some good folks here, like my friend J.B.,  who can, at the very least, lend you an understanding ear and give you the benefit of their experience.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

It's good to hear from you again, Tom! How are things going?

In NA and AA circles it's called "terminal uniqueness" because we all come into the programs thinking that we are the only ones to have suffered from addiction. You will soon learn that it hits all of us about the same. High IQ's and education can sometimes be a hindering factor here. Just try not to rationalize why you do what you do to the extent of complete failure before you even get started on the road to recovery.
The twelve step programs work wonders for the ones who stick to them and do the things suggested to stay sober. Life really does get better and better in sobriety!

[Jim]

Thank You... I WILL stay in touch with this site. What you have said makes good sense. Al Anon here we come, even if we have to drive a few miles to protect our professions. My wifes' addiction has been over 10 yrs. now and we're under no illusions that it will be quick and simple. Again thank you all for your replies.

[Frankinscense]

Methadone clinics will allow sunday take homes. Responsible narcotic user is the key here. Win their trust by genuinely by following their directions. Tom,I am at the top level. I only have to go to the clinic once a week. I get six takehomes. I reached the top level by never having a dirty urine.
  It is important to achieve an "adequate dose." An adequate dose will stop cravings and withdrawals. In the beginning you may get a little high,depending on your tolerance. Be in tune and listen to your body. It will tell you when your at an adequate dose. MMT is a wonderful treatment for opiate addicts. When you reach the proper dose your cravings will disapear. It is important to not try to chase a high by raising your dose. Once you have reached a blocking dose,generally around 50-80 mgm.s everything good about MMT starts to happen. Try not to pay much attention to your dose numbers ,what I mean is do not pay much attention to your milligrams. Everyones' body is different. Do some research about methadone. Read anything by #1) Dr.Vincent Dole and and Nyswander they are the pioneers and founders of MMT. #2) Visit and read Dr.J.Paytes website. (this doctor is probably the best along with Dr. Maxwell(Marc) Shinderman.in the field of opiate agonist therapies). If you read and research Dr. Paytes Website everything you ask me about MMT will be answered. Take the time Tom, it is worth your time! I want you to know all these things, it is important to get the most out of MMT.
Most addiction specialist do not know anything about opiate agonist therapy because they cannot prescribe methadone. The DEA only allows clinics to prescribe methadone or LAAM. By the way if you decide on OrLAAM or Laam you only have to go three times a week to the clinic. I cannot tell you anything about Laam because my clinic does not offer it. ALL decent clinics offer both. Also darvon is related to methadone but methadone is completely different in the way it kills pain and makes you feel. Darvon is **** and is only good (IMO) for little old ladies in pain! Darvon is also much more toxic than methadone. As far as their side effects. Side effects of methadone usely do not exist(with the acception of constipation) if you are on a dose that works for you. You will experience MMT's side effects usually only until you find your adequate dose. If you keep having unbearable side effects that means you are on to high of a dose. Do yourself a favor and do not determine your dose by chasing the high of methadone. The key is to curtail cravings and withdrawals only. Once you achieve this you are on your way to a life free of cravings and withdrawals. Now sit back and enjoy LIFE once again!!
Sincerely Again,
Doc Dan...
ps:if you feel that you have questions to personal to post for everyone to seem, ask me for an e mail address. I have answers to almost every problem that you may encounter with MMT. ( or can refer you to someone who can help) You see there is absolutely no reason not to do this TOM and all !!

[to doc dan from joe]

I'm comming up on almost a week of being (almost)pain and opiate free.  Although I felt fairly ill from WD symptoms I was determined to stick it out, the only bad part was not being able to sleep for first couple of days without taking 1/2 of an oxycodone to stop the restlessness.  The only lingering effect is a constant "foggy" felling almost like I'm drunk, I'm not sure but I think its from still not getting a restfull night's sleep, is this a normal after effect??  The other question that I have is I still feel the pain that drove me to the pain specialist in the first place but it doesn't seem all that bad now; does anyone know if pain pills lower one's pain threshold?  I clearly remember being in a lot of pain after the pills wore off requiring another dose, now I've been able to "grin and bear it" without taking more, I can't help but wonder if my pain thesh hold has "reset" itself

[for Sick and scared/beware of Vicky!!]

Hey Jim
I think you may have a point. I suffer from chronic pain but after losing my doctor due to the fact that I moved to another state, I quit trying to find a doctor to help me. They just dont want the long term headaches of the DEA I guess. Anyhow I took vicodin for 2 years and now with nothing other than over the counter stuff, I seem to be able to handle the pain better than before. I figured I had no choice though. Maybe you have a point.

[Frankinscense]

My chronic pains became easier to manage after I got off opiates. Some how (which I have a theory) opiates most definitely lower your pain threshold. Most pain specialist and physicians know this and that is why they frown on using opiates on a every day basis. After I got off lortab/vicodin my pain threshold raised itself. I think that has to do with opiates ability to deplete the bodies stores of endorphins.
Dan....

[to doc dan from joe]

Dan,

I am intrigued by yoour theory, so if I understand you correctly we have endorphins flowing through our body, constantly "knumbing" our pains, until the pain meds replace the endorphins.  When we stop taking our pain meds we now have nothing in our bodies to stop the pain so we go back to the meds to "knumb" the pain that the endorphins were doing.

[Frankinscense]

No what you said is the opisit of what I said.
We all have endorphins in our bodies to help us in times of need. Our stores of endorphins help us fight pain in times of stress and trauma. When we take opiates on a daily basis to kill various pain our stores of endorphins become depleted or become low. When we have various pains, our endorphins are not there for us and we feel accentuated pains. Opiates stimulate the natural stores of opiates in our bodies. These stimulations on a daily basis lower our endorphin levels. When these pains return our endorphins or natural painkillers are not there for us to fight the pain. Also withdrawals start after stopping our narcotics. This is due to low endorphin levels. Normal endorphin levels fight pain,stress,and help us to sleep. When we take narcotics on a regular basis it lowers our endorphin levels and when we stop them the withdrawals start(pains in our joints,headaches,nausea,sleeplessness). This is all directly due to ingesting narcotics or opiates. When we  abstain from taking these drugs our endorphins through time replenish and our tolerance to pain is reset like someone said. So the key is to use opiates for pain only sparinly and only when absolutely necessary. This allows our endorphin levels to stay at normal levels.
Doc...

[mmizzmee]

I thought i was all alone but now i know im not but all this stuff helped but i dont think i can go without it for one day i always have it and i think that as long as it is around i will use it.I need help but i have been hiding it for so long from my friends that i dont want them to find out.I have been able to fight my addiction from crank and ecstacy but i dont know if i can fight this,and it hurts cuzz im alone.Maybe one day i will call it quits and go back but i dont think it will be soon.I need time im trying to cut down and i have but I CANT GET THROUGH ONE DAY WITHOUT IT!!!! I WANT TO KNOW IF I CAN GET OVER THIS    DESPERATE PLEASE RESPOND =)

[mmizzmee]

I THIBK WE NEED TO USE THE CHAT ROOM ALSO ALOT MORE CAUSE SOPPORTING EACH OTHER IS IMPORTANT

[[e-mail]]

we have wonderful sucess with my mother , who was on vicadin, and the way we got her off of it was putting her on a product called noni juice... you can read about it on morinda.com

[marque]

To Jim: Jim I can understand your wifes low depression level..I came out of detox way back in July off of vicodin abuse of 3 1/2 yrs. My Dr. has me prozac and deprecote. for the mood swings but Its been really hard for me. Tell your wife it will get better..Go to NA talk with others ther.They can answer a  lot questions you may have..good luck ..God Bless you both............Mark

[marque]

To Jim: Jim I can understand your wifes low depression level..I came out of detox way back in July off of vicodin abuse of 3 1/2 yrs. My Dr. has me prozac and deprecote. for the mood swings but Its been really hard for me. Tell your wife it will get better..Go to NA talk with others ther.They can answer a  lot questions you may have..good luck ..God Bless you both............Mark

[To Jim from Brighty]

Just saw your post and could not help focusing on the part where you mention the "heart to heart talks"  with your wife and all the stuff from her past she told you.... you go on to see then why she is so depressed. First of all, you got the best possible replies from everyone.... they are all valid and the people here understand what you are telling them. I want to add my piece also because my daughter is heroin addicted and revealed after many years that she was raped by a friend of the family as a little girl. You cannot underestimate the power of psychological addiction as a very real factor in her continuing drug use. My daugher is still in a program where she receives one to one counseling regularly for sexual trauma. One data source says that nearly 80% of female addicts have suffered sexual trauma. These powerful drugs make them numb to the pain and the shame. Men are also often victims of sexual trauma but it's less talked about. Maybe you should suggest that in addition to chemical dependency treatment that your wife seek counseling for any issues she has. I also suggest that she seek a counselor trained in this area....not everyone who counsels is familiar with this issue. Hang in here with us.... this group has helped me heal. Love, Brighty

[To Jim from Brighty]

Just saw your post and could not help focusing on the part where you mention the "heart to heart talks"  with your wife and all the stuff from her past she told you.... you go on to see then why she is so depressed. First of all, you got the best possible replies from everyone.... they are all valid and the people here understand what you are telling them. I want to add my piece also because my daughter is heroin addicted and revealed after many years that she was raped by a friend of the family as a little girl. You cannot underestimate the power of psychological addiction as a very real factor in her continuing drug use. My daugher is still in a program where she receives one to one counseling regularly for sexual trauma. One data source says that nearly 80% of female addicts have suffered sexual trauma. These powerful drugs make them numb to the pain and the shame. Men are also often victims of sexual trauma but it's less talked about. Maybe you should suggest that in addition to chemical dependency treatment that your wife seek counseling for any issues she has. I also suggest that she seek a counselor trained in this area....not everyone who counsels is familiar with this issue. Hang in here with us.... this group has helped me heal. Love, Brighty