Right back where I started from...a story inside...

[squirrel1970]

Boy is it hard to post here! Quick recap: 33 years old, addicted to Vicodin ES for 2 year. About 15-20 a day. Tried controlled/supervised taper with my Dr.; didn't work cuz I was taking them for the high still, not to taper. Went to a psychiatrist who specialises in addiction (been doing it for over 30 years). She gave me catapres (clonodin) and Valium. Didn't work for ****. I talked her into giving me some Stadol NS because no one had any Subutex (in her defense she is also a neurologist, and I do suffer from migraines). Then 2 days later she got me some Subutex. I tried it for 4 days. It did reduce the cravings (she only gave me 2mg per day, I thought I should be on a bit higher). It also gave me wicked bad headaches. I managed to stay clean for 8 days! May not seem like much, but it was the longest I was clean in over 2 years. Then back on May 5, I blew it. It was my bday, and I wanted to celebrate. So I did. Now here I am 18 days later, and I've hardly gone a day without using. Been dr. shopping again, and also going to pain management doctors. I have found one that does "bio-electric" pain management. I suffer from severe TMJ, and he wants to shoot my face full of electricity for 45 min sessions. Says this will eventually cure me and I will be pain free. Meantime he gives me Norco or Lortab. I let him do 1 treatment, and honestly it was weird but I did feel less pain after. Prob is I am broke. I know I need to stop this! I have found a really cool counselor/PhD, but I don't have the $ to see him yet. Wife is on the way to pharm to pickup another Lortab script for me.

[squirrel1970]

wow-sometimes these forum docs are mean! : )

Actually I just wanted to do what a lot of people here do. Share my pain and experience. I want to quit. I am going to quit. Hopefully today I will be getting a call about a job interview. I think that getting out of the house and working will help my recovery; I won't be sitting at home all day thinking about and taking pills. I will have something to occupy my mind. Plus we sure need the money!

And fyi for the doc; I know Subutex is a long-term thing, but it is used mostly to treat heroin addicts that just cannot quit and have tried to quit unsuccessfully for long periods of time using many other methods first. It is mostly a maintenance drug, not a drug to help you quit over a short period of time. (As I am sure the wise doctors here know). That is why she only put me on it for 4 days; just to help me get over the acute withdrawal stage. The chronic withdrawal stage is up to me. I AM going to see a psychologist who specializes in treating addicts, I just don't have the $25 copay per session it's going to cost me. I don't care for NA, have tried it and it's just not for me. If it works for you, then great! By all means use it. Obviously it works for many, many people, otherwise it wouldn't exist. So, like I said. I didn't have a question, just a comment. Just wanted to share my experience with the folks here and see what they had to say. Just looking for a little encouragement. I also wanted to know if anyone had heard of this "bio-electric" treatment for pain (specifically TMJ). I dont want to hurt myself by doing it. I had to sign a very lengthy disclaimer before the dr. would even do it the first time. So if it messes me up for life, he is not responsible as I have been told the "risks." But he says he has "cured" TMJ in the past, and can "cure" mine forever. But as I have searched the internet far and wide, I have found NO refernece to "curing" TMJ, just ways to control it. I already spent $850 out of pocket on a new, high-tech TMJ splint to wear at night. I grind my teeth horribly when I sleep. I have tried many things to stop this, from stress-reduction, to muscle relaxers. to Xanax and Valium, and Paxil CR. But I still grind horribly. The splint doesn't stop the grinding, it just keeps me from destroying my teeth while I'm doint it.

Thanks and god bless the U.S.A. !

[Poppylover]

Hi Squirrel,  

   Read your post I to suffer from TMJD email if you like I'd like to hear about your treatment and story.

Poppylover      ***@****

[Chezz2]

Squirrel,

Your doc gave you some Stadol NS, and then some subutex to help you taper off narcotics?

Is SHE or YOU aware Stadol NS is a narcotic, relatively potent and has a high abuse potential?
There is another person on this board who may help fill in the voids here as to the Stadol is she wishes.
It just sounds a little counter productive to give someone a combination of drugs like that.
Just my humble opinion,
Chezz

[AmberHunter]

well, my two cents... i KNOW you were trying to tell your story but i have to tell you, i fully understood what the doc was trying to tell you...

i appreciate the insanity of what is going on in your life right now... and i know how much i ***** and moan when i take a look at my life and just want to scream...

don't think your problem is with the doc, think it is with the guy who looks back at ya in the morning from the mirror...

before you jump on me let me tell you a little bit of my story.

started using drugs at age 13, IV heroin at age 18, methadone by age 19. 13 different times in treatment, in-patient treatment. eight years clean in NA. best eight years of my life probably but still, NA is not for me...

even though heroin is my drug of choice i dearly love narcotics that come in any shape or form... i didn't make a doctors appt. this past friday b/c i was in too much pain and too afraid to go and try to play this doc for pills...

*shaking my head* there are no easy answers, i appreciate the way you told where you are at but i was left at the end kind of wondering if you had any idea where you wanted to be going or how you were going to get there.

i am not giving you a hard time squirrel, i understand the insanity, after 8 years clean in NA i have less than five months clean on my own... and i have fought tooth and nail for those five months. tooth and nail... heroin overdose in december, three weeks in hospital for pancreatitis from dec. to jan 2003. it just get worse and worse and worse and then we die or we find a way to live our lives without abusing drugs.

anyhow, that's enough for now! i am pulling for you squirrel, decide what you want to do and let us know... or email me, i am always open to an email... i am not the enemy, just as confused as you appeared to be when you posted that! *smile*

peace,

amber

[gracie97]

Hey Lady, how are you? We are still "free"! I am not sure if you like "rock music" but the song "Bring Me to Life" says it all....I hope you had a great weekend.
Things are going well, but I just want to be the me I was 2 1/2 years ago, can anyone tell me when I will be back to that "neurotic" personality, that was ALWAYS doing something, not just "veggin" and watchin TV? Geez, I can tell you every show that was on Animal Planet yesterday. Today I can give a complete synopsis of what happened on the ABC soaps!!!!!!!!!(I played hooky today with hopes of really getting something done, well obviously, not much done)

[squirrel1970]

yes I know all about Stadol-it is quite similar to Subutex, that's why we used it. It definitely helps get rid of the acute withdrawal symptoms associated with opiod withdrawl. Like I said-she is a psychiatrist AND a neurologist. She actually has 11 degrees/certifications on the wall in her office! : )
I have used the Stadol in the past for my migraines. One time I was out of Vikes, hurtin' bad, and found an old bottle of Stadol NS. Being the junkie I am, I tried some. And BAM! the symptoms were gone. I even posted about that experience here. It was just a short-term solution till we could get some Subutex to try. You will be quite hard-pressed if you need some to find ANY pharmacy that stocks it, or any pharmacist that has even HEARD of it. But most can get it in w/in 24-48 hours with a script. And btw-I would never become "addicted" to Stadol NS. The buzz isn't that great : )

[whatitistoburn]

Hey Gracie,

Bring Me to Life is my anti drug song. Couldn't have put it any better than they have. What a great song.

Burn

[gracie97]

Oh man, how cool, exactly how I feel. Before I stopped/quit I used to cry every time I heard it, because it made me feel so guilty, NOW, I turn it up as loud as I can, listen to it at work, every chance I get. No more tears, it is an inspiration for me! I am so glad to hear that someone else gets it the way I do. Music can be interpreted so many ways, sometimes, I think I read way too much into songs, but this song has really made a difference for ME!
Where is WVIC, can you play this song for us all????

[gracie97]

Just played it for you both!

[whatitistoburn]

Thanks for playing it, Gracie. I just heard it to, and I cranked it. I hear you, music is a huge part of my life, and I'm very emotionally tied to it, so I have songs for all the feelings, event's in my life. Like you, I'd cry when I first heard it because I wasn't clean then, and the song was so about drugs sucking the life out of me, to me. Now that I'm clean it doesn't make me cry any more, and it's my battle song.

Have a good one.

Burn

[freezing]

Hey squirrel,
Stadol is very different from suboxone.  subox is a total kappa receptor antagonist.  stadol is a total kappa agonist.

I think the problem is what you stated.  You should have been on 8 to 16 mg of subox, not 2.  Try to find a doc who will properly prescribe it and you will have a great solution to your situation.  Good luck and well wishes.

[Thomas03]

"eight years clean in NA. best eight years of my life probably but still, NA is not for me..."

I think that whatever you're looking for, you'll find it by explaining this contradiction. I know I'd like to understand it since it reminds me in some ways of my own situation.

Thomas

[Chezz2]

Squirrel,

Here is just a little info on Stadol. IT is QUITE different from suboxone.
Just thought I would pass on the info. Hope it helps.

Chezz

_____________________________________________________________

Stadol NS (butorphanol) , made by Bristol-Myers Squibb, is a nasal spray form of analgesic (pain killer). Bristol-Myers Squibb claims that Stadol has a much reduced risk of the addictive qualities of other narcotics used to treat pain. Due to manufacturer’s claim of an extremely low potential for abuse, the FDA allowed physicians to prescribe Stadol without government control. Contrary to the manufacturer’s claims, in the last few years it has been revealed that the synthetic opiate in Stadol is extremely addictive and has been blamed for several deaths.


The FDA has logged reports a significant amount of deaths and severe addictions associated with the drug. An injectable version took the blame in some of those cases.
However the nasal spray has brought most of the complaints. The spray has been linked to hundreds of cases of addiction and numerous deaths.

In February 1995 Bristol-Myers Squibb asked the FDA to recommend that Stadol NS be considered a controlled substance. A year later, the company expanded its request to contol Stadol NS by including the injectable form of the drug used to sedate patients before surgery. For Bristol-Myers, the request to control Stadol NS and restrict its sales was unprecedented. By making a drug a controlled substance, makes it more difficult for doctors to prescribe and may prompt some to choose another painkiller.

The question arises as to why Bristol-Myers Squibb did not initially recommend Stadol NS to labled as a controlled substance and why the company worked hard to argue the drugs non-addictive benefits to FDA.

These questions started to be asked when the suicide of a medical doctor's son occured. The father was Morris A. Fisherl M.D., professor of neurology at Loyola University, Stritch School of Medicine, Maywood, Illinois.

After Fisher's son conunitted suicide during treatment for an addiction for a supposedly "safe" treatment for migraine headaches, Dr. Fisher and investigative reporter Stephanie Glass gathered information on the drug.

According to Fisher, medical professionals and patients are not being informed about the serious dangers associated with the drug Stadol (generic name, "butorphanol") which is delivered as a nasal spray.

Medical evidence, says Fisher, has always indicated that Stadol should be scheduled for both effective control and as a caution to physicians and patients as an addiction/dependence drug. In 1978, the Federal Drug Administration Advisory Committee reviewed an indictable form of Stadol. The committee recommended scheduling Stadol as addictive, pointing out its abuse potential and withdrawal symptoms in people who had received the drug during clinical trials. The committee's recommendation was not followed.

[hippy]

hey all, i understand that as addicts we need to vent, we
sometimes get to thinking we are the only ones suffering, the doc called it beating yourself up, i just call it dumping.
there is a time and a place for dumping . this fourm is
as good as any to dump at. we just have to be carful not to
just dump.
we need to listen, we need to learn. this addiction thing is a matter of life and death.
i remember going to na meetings on fathers days , boy would
those meetings be a dump fest, all people would talk about
was how the hated ther father  and blame them for all
ther problems,
i think we all know about the horrors of addiction, we
need to foucus on the positive, what we need to do to survive
what we need to do to stay clean for a day.
we need to support each other
peace an addict named hippy

[AmberHunter]

good question. boy, what a contradiction that is, or appears to be...

i go so far back in NA. got clean in NA seriously the first time in 1986, lasted 4 months, then again for 15 months, relapsed again, then the 8 year stretch, each time i stayed out longer. each time i relapsed i lost more and more faith in myself. alot of "stinkin thinkin" took over, "you may as well just stay out b/c you know you are just going to relapse again anyhow, what's the use" that kind of stuff...

all the times i was in treatment it ususally included mandatory NA or AA or CA or EA meetings, lol! i feel i was spoon fed the belief system that the only way to get and stay clean in through a twelve step program.

it took finding this forum to just start to realize that while NA can be a life saver there are other avenues out there. i hold what i learned in NA close to my heart and let the rest go. i still to this day have more friends in NA that outside of NA!! i am very interested in this rational recovery stuff and printed out the work sheets, which of course i haven't started yet but i will, i will...

i love the fellowhsip of NA, it does wonderful things for so many addicts. i just am trying something different this time around. i am going to give it my best shot! that is all that i can do.

thanks for your interest.

amber

[dienikad]

I have a freind who has shot the **** about 6 times -- his arm (along his veins) is turning greenish. He's been 3 days clean.

I am a little worried -- I used the same dope and my arms are fine.

What is this -- ?

Pete

[suzieneedshelp]

Regarding stadol..That was my d o c for 10 years.. i believe Chezz (btw: Hey old friend) was referring to me.  It does give a high if you use enough as of course i did.  It is used for an anesthetic in surgery for heavens sake..will knock one out cold!
It is really dangerous.  It is not alike to bup...may have similarities but believe me Bristol Myers did everything they could to keep it not classified as an addictive substance!

Sweet Amber.. i was thinking the same thing Thomas said yesterday.  If any program worked for you for 8 years.. why abandon it????  Many people go in and out.. but this next time you may find you discover all of wut u need to stay clean day by day...My sponsor has 16 years...she is very envolved in service and attends meeting frequently.  Hse says that is wut keeps her clean.  Our powerlessness over addiction (step one) is key to any program workin. We muct remain powerless to the cunning baffling powerful disease in our minds.
Just a thought..
Love,
Suzie

[AmberHunter]

it touches me that a few ppl have responded to the fact that i no longer go to NA.

i keep inside of me all the good that i got out of the program, i would most likely be dead if it were not for NA...

i am just walking a different recovery path at this time, and who knows, it may circle back around and i may end up back in NA!

i am great for NA trivia, i started three NA groups in my area,NA was such an enormous part of my life for so long that i doubt you could surgically remove its effect on my life, and i wouldn't want it removed! lol! it is part of what i hope will someday be a rich tapestry of many different colors and textures in what i call my life.

love,

amber

[pammy0690]

I do not think I have ever posted to you directly but I just wanted to say that I think you are pretty cool.  Thanks Pammy

[mrmichael67]

Butorphanol (Stadol) is in the same class as buprenorphine in that it is an agonist/antagonist.  I think that is what the original poster meant (?).  It doesn't have the same action as bup though.  It will precipitate withdrawal if someone who is dependent on an agonist like morphine or oxycodone takes it like bup will, but I think that is pretty much where the likeness ends.  It isn't used in the same way at all.  Just because it is an agonist/antagonist, that doesn't mean it works like bup does.  But technically, it IS in the same class.

[longtimegone]

I am on meth. maint. for many years, when I was in the trauma unit they gave me stadol for pain after a motorcycle crash and it felt like a damned shot of narcan. It had to be the stadol that put me into w/d. Sure hope ya don't have the same problem.

[lisabet]

Jim-where the hell have you been?  I've missed ya, buddy.  I'm always glad to see you posting.  Still driving the big rigs? Been out on your Harley lately? Would love to hear from you. Why don't you e-mail me @ ***@****. Take care, you big burly biker dude, you.  Love, Lisabet

[gottadoit]

I too suffer from TMJ, that was the reason that I was given Ultram 8 long years ago.  I wont bore you with my addiction, but I will tell you that there is relief for the TMJ.  I chose to take the pain killers even after I found the relief for TMJ. When I lived in Texas, I went to a TMJ specialist (who created my splint) and he eventually put me in touch with a chiropractor that specializes in TMJ.  He was awesome and made all the difference. I am sure he is not the only one. So this might be something you can check out. Believe I know how bad it can be. Good Luck with the TMJ and the addiction.

[longtimegone]

I tried to send you an email but it was returned and it said you don't have a yahoo account anymore???
Big Jim

[lisabet]

Jim - my e-mail is ***@****.  You should be able to send it to this.  Try again - if you can't get through, let me know - - - I'd really like to talk to ya.  Hope you're doing OK.  Love, Lisabet  :)

[lisabet]

Hey Big Jim - you've got mail!!!!  Lisabet