I read this before I began my suboxone use but now know it to be true and I'm still learning how much - EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT - "You may be able to jump at 2mg or you may taper down to crumbs and still go through 3 weeks of withdrawal."
MY EXPERIENCE: I started on an 8mg Suboxone Sublingual Film for pain pill addiction (read profile for details) prescribed by my psych Dr. with a plan to taper basically as soon as I started and was stable. It's been ALMOST a year. My goal (as well as my Dr's) was never for a long-term suboxone treatment, but he's been very patient with me - understanding my need to not be too sick to work and study. (I work full time and go to school at night. I'm a Sr. in college). I started at 8mgs (half twice daily) and am now under 2mgs (half twice daily). It's getting much harder now, and yet some ppl. "jump" at this point. It makes me want to cry thinking about having to do that. Even my Dr. says he often takes ppl. off at 2mgs TWICE daily! Luckily, since I've been so honest with him, and continue to gradually taper, he continues to work with me. (That and I never miss an apt. or show up late etc.) I assume it's been obvious I'm dedicated to becoming sober again. He told me yesterday he would continue my prescription and for me to continue tapering as much as possible weekly. I'm hoping to be done 4-5 weeks from now.
CURRENT CONDITION: Like I said, FOR ME, it keeps getting harder, the closer I get to 0. Last wk. was my first dose under 2mg per day. I've been nauseated and achy every day. Also, most people say due to suboxones long half life that the withdrawals take a few days to even begin. NOT the case for me! For me, I feel them start within about 10 hours of my last dose. I dose twice daily so up til now, I would only feel them if I was late. Now that I'm under 2mgs, I feel them sooner, but have to "press through" those few hours if I want to continue to taper. The first few days of my first taper under 2mgs (just last wk) I hurt the majority of the days but in a tolerable way in comparison to regular opiate withdrawls. Today I will start "tapering" (cutting off more).
****I WILL keep you updated through this process becuase I think it's important to know that "normal" doesn't exist. "Usual" might exist, but there is no standard when it comes to suboxone in my opinion, and my Dr. agrees that EVERYONE is DIFFERENT! I am soooo blessed to have a Dr. that believes this and encourages my tapering without being too pushy. I'm already scared enough as it. Before I saw him yesterday I was SO scared that he would "cut me off" due to the "usual" person being able to jump at this point. I was so thankful when I left and went to pick up my next script.
OTHER WITHDRAWL REMEDIES I'M TRYING: I want to add that while at the pharmacy I picked up a Multi-Vitamin/MULTI-MINERAL, bottle of potassium, and some "Nauzene" for nausea. The multi-vitamin/mineral & potassium I read about in the famous "Thomas Recipe". NOTE that a multi-vitamin is not always a multi-MINERAL! I learned this last night after looking at many many ingredients in multi-vitamins trying to find the ones in the "recipe" before finally realizing I needed to find something that also read "multi-MINERAL"! Also, I bought Nauzene after asking the pharmacist what I could take for nausea that wouldn't cause sleepiness or constipation. This and Emetrol were the only otc's she knew of for that, but couldn't say for sure if they would work, and I haven't tried yet....bought for my next taper (starting today). I also have an old prescription of muscle relaxers, diclofenac (stronger than ibuprofren for muscle inflamation), xanax & tramadol - which I KNOW can both be very addicting so I save for EMERGENCY use ONLY! Also, they have neither ever been a problem for me or I would toss them. In my past when experiencing w/ds from oxys, morphine, etc, I would have been MAD if someone tried to give me these as help. Of course I also thought hydrocodone was weak and almost worthless at the time too, so I now know that b\c I've been an addict I can never be too cautious about what I take.
WISH ME LUCK and PRAY FOR GRACE, WISDOM, STRENGTH, and HEALING FROM GOD!!!
I wish you luck but just be careful with xanax and tramadol I never recommend anyone to use either to w/d off other things because you can find yourself getting addicted to Tramadol and Xanax very easily not trying to be rude just be careful. However with using suboxone I am surprised the tramadol even works for you as when I started taking subs loritab and tram had no affect on me and I was instructed to not take either or it could make me really sick so that maybe something you want to talk to your doc about (The tramadol that is) anyways I jumped at 8/2mgs and did awesome but I was terrified of long term use due to all the horror stories I read and I started off at 8/2mg 3 times a day due to the high amount of loritab and Tramadol I was abusing I tapered over about 2 and a half to 3 months and then jumped at 8/2mgs and surprisingly did well but your right everyone is different you don't need a doctor to tell you that.
Ive had people tell me that I should not have experienced any W/ds going from Geodon brand name to Generic but I did. Even my own doctor was surprised but my body is just that sensitive.
Anyways congratulations on having a solid plan. Keep us updated !!! :)
I have a question that maybe someone might be able to answer Regarding subs***
I dont know alot about subs but I know that subs have Naloxone in it and have heard that if someone is tries taking opiates along with subs that it can make them feel nauseated and sick feeling. #1 is this true?? And Number 2 if this is the case, and you (the OP) is taking tramadol (which is a syntetic opiate) is it possible to be feeling nauseated and sick because your mixing the two?? again I dont know enough about subs so I am really wanting to learn and hope someone can answer this for me!
Anyways, I think you have a great plan to getting clean and everyone here knows having a plan is vital! Just stick with it, and stay the course! Congrats on taking the right steps to getting your life back!! Youve found a great place with alot of great people, so post often. Were here to help! :)
Teresa...VERY good question...and the answer is YES! The tramadol could very well be causing the nausea taken with the sub. I would not recommend either that, or benzos, or muscle relaxants...for SO many reasons. For one, it prolongs the w/d, two...it's that same self medicating behavior. At some point, whether it be with the initial DOC, or sub, or methoadone, a person has to withstand the w/ds. It's part of the process. Now, something for nausea, or immodium, those kinds of things are a little different. It's okay to treat to symptoms of w/d...not try to take them away.
OP, you are correct...everyone's experience with sub is different. There is a big psychological component as well, as everyone fears the w/d's...expects it to be so bad. I've found that the people who are completely clueless about sub do the best on their taper, they have no preconceived notions.
As for jumping point, everyone tolerates the final jump differently. The sub doc I worked for would not recommend anyone jumping off any higher than 0.5 mg/day. Some people insisted on jumping higher, and most of them ended up resuming their taper. In comparison to other opiates, 2 mg of buprenorphine is actually a pretty significant dose.
Just take your time with the taper, and keep working with your doc. He sounds like a good one. Set goals, but be kind to yourself. Sometimes you have to change your plan, that's okay...as long as you're headed in the right direction.
MOST importantly...be sure you are addressing aftercare, without that, your chances of staying clean diminsh. Looking forward to watching your progress. Best of luck...hope it goes very well!
I like reading what you post you are very intelligent so keep up the great posting. :)
Also every doctor does things differently as my doctor left my treatment mostly up to me also want to specify I had a specialist whose primary care is in suboxone use. I would recommend him for anyone because he helped me set a plan of action and once I was ready to quit subs he prescribed a recipe to get off them that I could not take with subs. There was four different medicines and yes one of them was klonopin, the others one was ibroprufin 800mgs, one was for nausea and stomach issues which is to long of a name and one was dixycylomine which I happened to be taking for crohns which no one told me you can't take with opiates and I was using both at the same time before I got clean and wondered why I was getting more sick then before. Anyways sorry I have rambled... More information about my experience but focus on the symptoms when you do quit suboxone and I also would suggest not cross using. Nurse has EXCELLENT points as to why... :)
First of all, again, the prescription meds are for emergency use ONLY. I will explain in detail in the next paragraph. I don't even take them on a weekly basis. Secondly, I know people are going to disagree, but Tramadol with Suboxone do NOT make me nauseated. I feel nothing but some pain relief. As for Loritab or any other opiate, I have not used since that was the purpose of the suboxone, plus EVERYTHING I read said the suboxone would make you sick if taking another opiate - like putting you through immediate withdrawls (b/c of the Naloxone). Before ever taking tramadol with subs I read real peoples personal experiences and could see no bad reactions. Since the original post was about everyone being different I won't say for certain that the Naloxone wont effect Tramadol, all I'm saying, is that it doesn't in ME.
I was very reluctant to even put the tram and xanax in my orignal post because I knew it likely to recieve negative feedback. To explain more, I have a real injury in my shoulder that my family Dr. prescribes the muscle relaxers and tramadol for. To explain my "emergency use only", ONE prescription of 30 trams lasted me 6 months, and 30 muscle relaxers lasted even longer. I only take it when my shoulder is KILLING me, and a couple of times during the first days of taper - even then, it's usually for my shoulder. The pain is just deeply intensified (I think) because my body is extra sensitive. Just a little FYI, the majority of the time SALON PAS patches keep my shoulder pain at bay when it "flares" up. The xanax....well....I no longer have a script, I just stocked up on some before I went through the process because I heard it helped when you couldn't sleep. I'm definately experiencing the WD's and I know that I HAVE to, I'm just trying to make it as easy as possible like every other opiate addict would.
BTW, I can't believe you jumped at 8/2mgs! There's no way I could have done that. Your a champ! LOL! but then again, I know, "EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT!" Nursegirl said that ppl. who do best often are clueless which I believe, but for me it's harder than I read or thought it would be, so I know it's not in my head. I was "thinking" it would be much easier. :-(
You are scaring me and I am very concerned for you. You started Suboxone to get off of your DOC. Now you are tapering. Good so far. But...you have a stock pile of muscle relaxers, benzos and Tramadol to help with the next set of withdrawal. Holy crap honey, when does it end? What are you going to take to get off of all of that?
Suboxone is a program, not just a pill. It provides the time for the person to get their life back and learn new behaviors and life skills. Did you do counseling or join an aftercare group? Have you worked on yourself through these? Because I still see old behaviors and I hear your stinkin' thinkin'.
Again, I am very concerned for you and I pray that you will change your mind about the other drugs and let this be your last detox. Best of luck and keep posting.
It's true that some addicts can take other meds and not abuse them, but it's a big risk to take. I don't doubt that you are being honest about your usage of the Ultram and benzos and muscle relaxants, it's just such a slippery slope, you have to be OH so careful. We've seen too many people get caught off guard, who have taken benzos appropriately all of their lives, yet be an opiate addict...only to end up addicted to the benzo after getting clean from the opiate. It DOES happen.
You seem very bright, and very aware...just keep that guard up. The OPTIMAL solution would be like IBK said, get rid of them all, end all of the madness. You need to make sure you are working hard at developing an aftercare program, and putting in place coping skills.
This comment from IBK is a good one...please give this some thought:
Because I still see old behaviors and I hear your stinkin' thinkin'.
The addiction mindset is a sneaky one. Your addict brain can convince you of a lot of things!
Right now I'm just trying to get better, one day at a time, and the on-hand meds help me be less afraid to move forward .And IBKleen please let me re-emphasize how RARELY I take one of these medicines. HOWEVER, I will be careful and take into consideration the things you've said. I definately am NOT trying to go backward!!! That's why I've gotten things like minerals and potassium...not just prescriptions. I went 4+ years without ever taking ANY addictive substances including little things like nicotine or alcohol before my relapse (just 16 months ago). I even went through a year treatment of Interferon (Pegyntron) without anything except 10mg of paxil SO...I DO KNOW how to live without being medicated in some way...even through pain and emotions. I will be sure to step back and take a look at where I've been, where I am, and where I'm going. I also KNOW how slipery the slope is. I worked at the rehab I went to 3 years after I completed it, and saw 8 ppl die and many ppl relapse completely just from a drink. My fiance is an EX heroin and meth addict whose been clean for around 6 years who will barely drink a beer or take an advil so I do hear these things your saying regularly...right before my relapse I went through a divorce, and was completely alone with no family or friends anywhere near...in other words, NO ACCOUNTABILITY! Now I have that, and I think that's a good START to "after-care"....
I was on subs though only for 95 days and believe me after the long years of using and detoxing back and forth over a long period of time I just had enough with the pain and agony of it all. Then the big issue really was when I was taking the subs I was also taking medicine for my crohns, no pharmacist or doctor told me you can't take dicyclomine with Subs they do not interact well and cause extreme constipation because together the two drugs basically shut down your digestive system. I was hospitalized after three weeks because no matter what I did I could not go number two. I will spare anymore details but it was then after I was in the hospital and I stopped taking the Dicyclomine I was able to go again and boy was it just about as bad as labor. But anyways I knew then and there it was time to get off my body just couldn't handle it my bodies always been sensitive so I jumped off. Honest to god it was nothing getting off might have had something to do with only being on for 95 days. I have been told and read that the longer you are on the harder it is to get off due to the physical addiction you get but that is not true for everyone and I hate having to say that every time I say what I have been told or read but its easier then starting a conflict. For me I was not physically or mentally attached I was eager even though I was scared I would detox badly. Thank god for the detox formula is all I have left to say lol..
I did it again Opps. Anyways it sounds like you are doing a great job but it worries me too only because I have abused so many medicines in every different family of drugs I know how easily you can replace one for the other and its not even your fault. Your body is in addict/recovery mode and I just r don't want you to unknowingly build tolerances up to the Tram or Xanax and have to go through withdraw off those too. Because if you take enough for long enough you will more then likely withdraw. At least that range true for me... Also to be honest Tram and Xanax are highly addictive and in that sense really your just replacing one drug with another and that is not safe to do. Not trying to be mean or rude just being honest. If I was you I would dump the rest of the pills you have that you are using and put your faith in the subs that you are on if you let them do their job and do yours to get clean its much easier and safer that way. Then you risk nothing. The subs are not a magical pill to take away everything but they work very well at helping to maintain your life not in agony I will tell you that. This is just my two cents... = )
Ya'll are awful!!!! JK - I'm pretty sure it was ya'lls fault I had a horrible dream lastnight about pills being everywhere! I was in my car and there were all colors and kinds of xanax and tramadol EVERYWHERE - under my seats, spilled out in my purse, etc. I was trying to hurry to get them picked up before my fiance got in. I kept fumbling around, the bottom of a bottle fell off and there was an even bigger mess. I didn't have enough hiding spots. It was awful!
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