Similarity of fentanyl (Duragesic) to heroin. . .

[Kurt Cobain]

Hey everyone. . .just a discussion-opener and thread-starter for the day.  I've read several posts from folks here who have used/are coming off of Duragesic (fentanyl) patches of varying strengths.  Seems like most of these folks, however, have had them prescribed for legit reasons and have used them as directed.  My question is, is anyone else familiar with the NON-approved methods of using these patches (that would include mainly ingeston)?  Back in "the day", I would either cut them up or place them intact inside my mouth, and then. . .over and out (to the point of underestimating strength once and almost getting killed several times while driving home).  As I understand, medical fentanyl can actually be stronger and more "pure" than garden-variety smack, especially the way I took it.  Any other opinions/experiences would be interesting to hear. . .some of the things I did to get my hands on this drug are extreme, and I am most certainly NOT proud of any of them. . .seems very similar to heroin as far as the "drawing power" it had to get me to do things I would have otherwise (and now) find reprehensible.  Also, I've had bad dreams the last several nights about using everything under the sun, and so am a little shaken up these days -- especially since I've had no CONSCIOUS cravings for the **** in what seems like forever.  Can anyone else relate?  

Lastly (I promise). . .what is the "DA" BBoard I've heard several here refer to (and where?)  Judes, good to hear from you, maybe you can help with this. . .more later.  Thanks to everyone in advance. . .

Peace,

Kurt

[Kurt Cobain]

"I cannot comment on non-medical usage of an opiate agonist in any constructive fashion. Sorry."

-- and you should be quite thankful you cannot.  Nothing to be sorry about there.  Even more blessed are you that you cannot get "what I was driving at" in my post, since it is, in essence, the edge of a big-assed precipice which most sane people NEVER drive at.

Never mind.  No offense, but what I'm actually after are comments from those who DO know what I'm talking about.  Specifically, my only curiosity was over the chemical similarity between the compounds fentanyl and heroin, since the addicitve power and effects seem remarkably similar.  Actually, as I understand it, they are both metabolized internally to what is essentially morphine (fentanyl being a very close "synthetic" match, chemically speaking, to heroin) -- so I guess in this aspect I have answered my own question.  

I was essentially wondering if my information was correct, or could be verified, by someone in the medical community, as I think that this insight -- if accurate -- may help explain why it is so difficult for "legitimate" users of the Duragesic (fentanyl) patches for pain  management issues to taper off of them, and why their withdrawal syndromes are so remarkably uncomfortable.  Several people have commented on this issue here in this forum lately, and I suppose it was their suffering and frustration that prompted my inquiry.

So I hope that the above has "let me make this perfectly clear" (as my dear departed buddy "Tricky ****" Nixon once said).

Any other opinions of value and experience are greatly appreciated.

Peace,

Kurt

[Linco]

Thanks for answering my question.  The puzzling thing is that prior to my use of the patches I was taking about 5 vicodin 7.5 per day.  I asked my MD to help me with the break through withdrawals and wean me off narcotics. He put me on the duragesic with a drastically reduced vicodin intake.  It's working of course but I fear an even greater "monkey" than before.  Anyway, thank you again.

[Jerri2]

Go to www.drugabuse.com  Thats where Judes is talking about!They have a general board and a support board!Hope this helps!Jerri

[Kurt Cobain]

Thanks. . .I'm on the way!

Peace,

Kurt

[mrmichael67]

Generally, people find it difficult to taper off of the patch because they think when they are at the 25ug/hr patch, they are at the end of their taper.  And, that is wrong.  Actually, tapering off of Duragesic isn't harder than tapering off of other opioids.  People just need to realize that being on a 25ug/hr patch is still being on a pretty decent dose of fentanyl.....or opioid, for that matter.  As far as fentanyl being like morphine, they are alike in their affinities to the mu opioid receptor and that is basically it.  Fentanyl is metabolized into an inactive metabolite (norfentanyl) where as morphine is metabolized into one active (m6g) and one inactive (m3g) metabolite.  And, heroin is metabolized into morphine.  There are other things such as clearance and whatnot that aren't alike as well.  I felt like withdrawal was a bit more nasty from the fentanyl.  But, that could also have been my elevated tolerance causing it.  I am not really sure on that one.  I do know many doctors drop their patients off after the 25ug/hr patch and their patients get sick as hell.  A 25ug/hr patch is equal to between 7-8 10mg Norco a day.  There are people that are taking that much Norco a day and want to start tapering.  The 25ug/hr patch may be the lowest strength made, but it sure as hell isn't the end of the road as far as tapering goes.  I think that is where people get into trouble with it.  "It's the lowest strength, so where else is there to go?"  Well, many doctors try to get by with that thinking.  And, many people suffer because of that.

[mrmichael67]

One more thing:  Once it is metabolized, heroin is, for all purposes, morphine.  That is why I used morphine in my last post.  If one were to do a urinalysis, heroin is only detectable as heroin for six hours after ingestion.  There is one short living metabolite from heroin that is detectable for up to six hours.  After that, the person will test positive for morphine.  In the first six hours, the person will test positive for morphine as well, but further investigation will reveal the heroin.  After six hours, it will only show morphine.

[Kurt Cobain]

Thanks. . .I had heard fentanyl referred to as "synthetic heroin" in the past and wondered just how accurate or inaccurate that may have been.  Your post couldn't have been more helpful as far as the chemical composition was involved (which is basically what I was most interested in).  The bottom line is, I suppose, it all takes a fierce hold of you, no matter how you take it or for what reason. . .and is no easier to come off of whether you're a legit pain patient or a garden-variety junkie such as myself.  After my many near-death experiences with it, I regard it with the utmost respect as far as being a "heavy hitter".  Thanks also for your comparison to the 25 patch as equivalent to 8-10 Norco. . .it's amazing that physicians would not grasp something seemingly this pharmacologically basic -- but I guess until it hits you at the gut level (pun sadly intended) it just doesn't resonate as much. . .if at all.

Peace,

Kurt

[skipper]

hey people:
i've used the duragesic patches briefly. my neuro surgeon's partner
was on duty one weekend before my last surgery. i was in the middle
of a pain episode and went to the ER. well the good doc didn't fool
around....put me on the 100 microgram patch and 4 hours later i felt
as if i could have run a marathon.(my heart was racing like i was!) i didn't give a ****, i felt great. when i went in to seem my doctor
the following monday he ripped the patch off...told me my blood pressure was sky high...the real strange part of it was, i never felt real euphoric like i have with other opiates...just no pain.

last week i had to take a urine test for a new job. i take 140 mg of
oxycontin and 45 of roxycodone a day. i thought they would bring up a positive for opiates as i had a half days worth in me to begin with. but no my test came up clean. the only thing i can figure is i'm on
a diuretics for high blood pressure. i knew it really kept me flushed out, but i didn't know it worked that well!!

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[TA328]

I was on 80-mg patches wich are supposed to last three days. Whenever I put a new patch on, I was hardly conscious the first day.When I bummped or smoked Herion the few times I did it didnt seem as sedating but more pleasurable than fentanyl.Fentynal is deffinetly close but has a unuiqe feeling and anelgesic effect when compared with heroin.I know one thing for sure,fentanyl withdrawls come and go pretty quick after your last use(3-4)days and feel very misrable when you stop without tapering or dont have other drugs to replace it.I was on it for a while and sometimes would run out a few days early.

[mrmichael67]

I am sure you may have heard of "tango and cash".  That was actually fentanyl made in a clandestine lab, not heroin.  People thought it was, thouh.  They were fixing it up like they normally would and were dropping like flies.  Heroin is about six times as potent as morphine.  Fentanyl is about 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine.  If they only knew what they REALLY had.

[mrmichael67]

I am sure if you were to inject a couple of hundred mics of Sublimaze, you would feel euphoric.  I had it the last time I had an epidural lyses of adhesions with a Racz catheter on my back.  I was also on methadone and the anesthesiologist had to give me 400mics of Sublimaze (fentanyl) in my IV to override the methadone blockade.  I was feeling absolutely wonderful for about an hour or so after the procedure.  It did wear off quick.  That is the exact reason why they use fentanyl in same day procedures....because of the rapid clearance.

[mrmichael67]

In order for a test to come up positive for oxycodone, they have to test for it exclusively.  It won't come up in a regular opiate screen.   http://www.iatdmct.org/oxycodone.html

[skipper]

mrichael:
so most company don't test for oxy??!!! with all the media hysteria, one would think it would be real high up on the list..go figure. thanks for the info
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[mrmichael67]

I didn't say that.  I would imagine the one you applied to didn't, though.

[Resoguy]

I saw your reference to the RACZ catheter procedure recently, and I'm a chronic back pain patient who is considering it. If you're willing to correspond about it, please contact me at ***@****. To the rest of those who post here, please know that I admire every one of you for your willingness to share your pain and wisdom on this forum. You don't know me, but you've all helped me.

[Jerri2]

Welcome!Keep on posting so we can get to know you.Jerri

[Huiler]

Hi, Kip,
Yes, at our methadone clinic the lab we used to use caught everything when we tested for opiates. Then we changed to another lab and discovered that oxycodone (oxycontin, percoset, roxicet, etcicet (haha)) do not come up under their screen for opiates.
(And people were coming up positive for opiates and saying "It's my percoset prescription.") Actually, to modify that, they could come up positive for opiates if they were taking huge amounts of oxycodone (more than a a prescription would usually be for.) That's what the lab said...
H.

[Chezz2]

Skipper,

Nice to see you posting again. I hope things finally work out for you with this job.

On the testing issue. It is a cost thing, the more they add to the test, the more it costs. As far as I know, testing for oxycodone is one of the more expensive tests. As they have to test for more than just metabolites. Same with testing for Marijuana as far as I know, it is another expensive test the longer they want to test out. In other words the lower levels of thc they want to find. So instead of just finding out if you smoked last week (higher, easier detectable levels) vs. 3 weeks to a month out. It is harder and a more in depth test.
It is all about money. Most companies have a "screen" that they pay for. It costs x amount of money and will test for x amount of drugs. If you want to order a higher level more indepth initial screening = more money to the hirering company.
Just my $.04 cents worth.
Keep an angel on your shoulder kip, and good luck with the new job...I hope it all works out, it is about time for you to have some luck come your way......
Chezz

[skipper]

hey people (salt of the earth and all);

thaxs for the info about the urine test... it put my mind at some ease... i can't really go into a lot of detail about it except that i am doing old time type phone work in residentual enviroment. the telecom slang is "pots" wich means plain old telephone service.kind of a step back from gbix eithernet and frame relay service!! but the pay is good....$13.00 an hour straight pay with $4.OO  an hour for tool and truck allowence (tax free too). in short it's the best offer i've gotten so far. i'm garunteed 40 hours a week. this week was my first week on the job and i put in one long day (today). all told my actual work time was 13 hours, but i am being paid for 49 hours!!! i may have to hire some one to periodically kick me in the ass....just so i know and keep in mind it's not a nod and it probably won't last forever...

all this boils down to lots of time for poetry and woodworking in my shop!! perhaps god gave my case a hard study and decided this is as close to a real job as this old burn out can handle....who knows. sometime in the near future theae good people will send me a lap-top computer so i can also set the ignorants up for DSL service. of couse that mean i will have to have a DSL service into my house (at no cost to me). i already have broad-band cable service, but a DSL service might be intresting....so i guess i can live with the somewhat lower pay than the university of no where whatever was paying me...we will see...more to be revealed as the slogan goes!

i have to admit i've caught myself in a smile a lot lately!!!

i guess that old angel on my shoulder is as sweet as irish rose when she is having a good day!!

at any rate keep an angel on your shoulder too, ok?
kip

[Chezz2]

Kip,

Glad to hear it is working out. I remember how long it has taken you to finally find a position. So that is so nice to hear you finally got something.
About the Cable vs. Dsl. If the dsl is free that is great. Although I was a DSL tech for a while here, until my back couldn't handle it anymore. What a joke it was compared to the Cable service I have now. Especially since I am running around 3k download, and the fastest I ever got on dsl was around 384k download, if you wanted more bandwith you had to pay. For 1.5k it was $69.95 a month. The company I worked for was SBC Yahoo dsl, it is a joke. Shitty software, shitty company, just an all around joke. I felt bad for the company. I actually worked for an outsourcer that took care of DSL tech issues for them. The problem was, I couldn't fix much, the company, software, servers, ect. ALL sucked. We had rbacks go down all the time(they are the main servers that usually handle around 6-10,000 people.  Plus they had to log in with a user name and password each time they wanted to connect. What happened to DHCP when you would just pick up an open ip, all in the backround when you opened your browser. Not anymore, it is just like dial up. It is so they can oversell IP address's. You had to log on to DSL, what the ****?!?!?
Enough of my rant.
Glad you got a job Buddy, I hope everything works out for the best for you,
Chezz

[pammy0690]

Good luck with your new job!  Congratuations and you should be smiling! Pammy

[afriend]

To some, fentanyl is also refered to as china white, go figure, best wishes on your quest Curt! friends, afriend////////the juice in those patches has also known to have been sucked up with a syringe, I, wouldn't do that, of course!

[skipper]

hey good people:
thankyou for your well wishes on my new job! it's been a long haul... through the worst winter of a long, long time! i can remember back to '78 where i had a real bad broken leg and was coming off of a long haul of morphine, dilaudid, and neumorphan. i couldn't find anyone to "pull the trigger" for me. that was the winter i met Irish Rose...

perhaps all the bad times are really just pathways to better ones. i can tell you this...this forum has saved my ass more than once

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[mrmichael67]

I would like to say I am proud of you and anyone else who has the cajones to see a detox from opiates through.  GOOD JOB!!!  Keep up the good work!  What you have accomplished is no small feat.  You should be proud of yourself as well.

[doner]

My first order of business is to congratulate Jack on his success.You are a brave and dedicated soul and definitely someone I admire.
On the next note against everyones advice I wanted to see what would happen if I dropped 5mgs off my meth dose.Figured Id try it and if I couldnt handle it Id go back up. Its my 3rd day on 10 mgs oh but I must add beore I go any further that I startd the thomas recipe. So I feel good. And Im thinkin about now I should be feeling like death.Whats up?No complaints of course I was just bored with going sooo slow.Could it be the vitamins? Added tons of coral calcium to the recipe and takes care of my RLS within an hour. Should I be sick by now or is the worst yet to come. A reply would be much appreciated. I just want this **** out of my body as quick as possible so I can get on with my life.  PS The thomas recipe kicks ass.

[jack daniels]

yes ...it saved me as well...you have the right ideia to get off the ****..good luck and thanx for the good word...today is a good day i have famliy over and everyone is patting me on the back...the birds are singing the sun is shinning and we are all hanging around the poole and me with my laptop...i have be stoned for so long and that now i feel stoned with nothing at all...life is GREAT...good luck ...Jack

[jack daniels]

thanx for the good word....and anyone can do what i did, you just have to do it...Jack

[mrmichael67]

Because of its half life and the way the body stores it, a change in the dose of methadone isn't instantly felt.  It could take up to a week.  Some people who just stop taking methadone without tapering....one day they are taking it and the next, they aren't.......won't go into withdrawal until the fourth day or so.  So, it is a little premature to say what it is.  The recipe won't keep you from going into withdrawal.  Do stay on it, though.  I know how addicts want everything NOW.  Now that you are at 10mg, it might be wise to slow it down a tad.  You are going to do what you want anyway, but I know I would love to see you succeed, that's all.  It generally goes with any opioid, but methadone is the supreme example.  Slow is the way to go and the lower the slower.  When you drop down in whatever increment you choose, stay there for a week or so to allow your body to get used to the dosage change.....sort of like a mini-stabilization.  Then, you drop another amount and let your body get used to that.....and so on.....

[mrmichael67]

mr michele?  It doesn't make me a bad person, there thweety.

[Nana42]

Hey there!  It's a great day am I'm feeling awesome!  (just got my hair cut...always puts me in a good mood).  Haven't started down my road to pill-less days yet, but I'll get there.

Just wondering, did you have a chance to talk to your mother about the prednisone thing?

Peace out...Nana

[jack daniels]

sorry

[mrmichael67]

I am sorry.  She told me it was years ago and even though the doctor weened her off, she still felt like **** for a day or so.  What you should do is go to www.google.com and do a search with "prednisone withdrawal" as your key words.  You should be able to come up with some info there.  Generally, the dose has to be slowly decreased.  I am not sure as to the rate at which this is done.  Again, I am sorry for not getting back to you on that.

[mrmichael67]

That's alright.  Just joking with you.

[Nana42]

Hey there!  It's a great day am I'm feeling awesome!  (just got my hair cut...always puts me in a good mood).  Haven't started down my road to pill-less days yet, but I'll get there.

Just wondering, did you have a chance to talk to your mother about the prednisone thing?

Peace out...Nana

[doner]

Thanks for responding. Im kinda waiting for the witdrawls to slap me in the Face. If this should happen I will return to my 15mgs and start slower. The bordom is just killing me thats all. And it is just a test. As I said if I go into full boar wds Ill up my dose. No need to be sick. Just cant tell ya how much better I feel taking those vitamins. I think addicts forget to take care of their bodies because all they focus on is the pills. I think just replenshing some of the missing ingredients to make a body work can do wonders for anyone. Again thanks for the advice and Ill keep you posted on wether I get that slap.
Take care and much respect to you,Melissa

[mrmichael67]

I agree wholeheartedly.  I always recommend to people to at least take a multi-vitamin during detox.  It is so true we don't exactly eat right.  I should start to take my own advice as well.  I hope you continue to feel well.

[KimH]

Hello everyone! I am hoping that Goldie 52 reads this or someone will get this info to her if I can't but stopping xanax cold turkey is EXTREAMLY DANGEROUS TO YOUR HEALTH AND WELL BEING!I was on a much smaller dose a few years ago and tried to quit cold turkey and had a sezior! I then found out how dangerous and chance of being fatal this is! Please talk to a doctor before quiting cold turkey, at least the xanax! I (after getting out of the hospital) had a plan with my doctor to cut down 1/2 a pil a month. It may seem like a long time, but the withdrawel was very minimal. I have been off them for about 2 1/2 yrs. Go slow with them. Also, the golden one, I am getting off ultram right now. I am so not looking foward to this, I have tried like 15 times already on my own, now I have a doctor involved who is helping me. I have clonidine to help with wd but I am still adjusting from like 15 a day (or so) to 6 and even that is going to suck as you surely know.I think for me the best way is going slow with help and support. I have got off heroin (4 1/2 yrs), and methadone ( went to a friggin clinic every day for 2 yrs! The great liquid chains! I've been off that 2 1/2 yrs, perscription drugs (God knows how long), OH, and I haven't drank or did yayo(coke for anyone who doesn't know) for 4 1/2 years. I did get arrested, lost my home, family, self, and just about everything! You can get it back! Even if you do go that far, you can always turn back! Lots of prayer, meetings, connection with people like this! I just finished a semester in college and got all A's! I don't know how, probably because I lost my job too, so besides taking fistfuls of ultram, that is all I had to focus on. I have been delivered out of many a mess, but I'm a dumb F@%K that has to always get into something else (although I had no idea that they were addictive until it was too late). Next with my very addictive personality, I'll get addicted to motrin (cigarettes and coffee). At least the wd won't be so bad. Sorry I'm rambling! bye KimH

[Inmytree]

I agree that you have done a great job Jack Daniels. I am also about a week clean but you mentioned you are also going to meetings EVERY day?? Dude, you gotta be my hero man. Going to meetings and Jonesing? It was about all I could handle to drag my sorry ass to the bath tub. Keep rockin!

[theGolden1]

Hi ... I hope you see this message. The thread up on top was full. Your pup most likely has worms .... You need to get him to the vet with a stool sample ASAP! Mine had two different kinds of worms. Also ... even though he is a baby, don't give him milk.
That can cause diarhea (diarrhea). I wouldn't give the dog immodium. If you have a vet .... call them. They usually help us over the phone. There are anti-diarhea meds you can get in your local pet store.
Good luck with your Pooch ..... Goldie

[bmac]

GRrrr ossssSS!

[jack daniels]

you hang in there..it gets a little better each day....don't you feel good about your self...clean for a week?  you should!  Today is day 13 for me and i feel great this morning...it's so nice getting up in the morning feeling good, not being in w/d and having hit some pills to fill normal...life is good...and it will be for you to very soon...good luck...Jack

[sandstorm]

Hi,

I have been reading the post for about four months and this is the first time I've written anything.  I feel like I know all of you and thank you for all of your help.  See, you are helping people and you don't even know it.  You really kept me going.

I just got off ultram 4 months ago and it is the worst experience I have ever been through.  I was under a Doctor's care and he helped me wean off of them for about 7 months.  I had been on them for about three years and was told they were not addictive, so the rest is history.  

I just wanted to tell Kim and anyone else, please tell your Doctor if you can and taper off.  I know everyone is different and some people can go cold turkey and I do applaud them.  I am 54 with high blood pressure so it was a lot harder for me, I'm sure someone younger will do better than I did, I hope.  Just please be careful, this is some "BAD ****". In the begining I had so much energy and I thought a lot of it was due to no more pain, but I could do 10 millon things in a day, but in time all of that wore off and I took it just to get up in the morning.  Sometimes, I wish I had some and with my addictive personality I'm sure the craving will continue to be there,  but every day it is getting better and better.

Kim, please be careful and let your doctor know exactly what is going on.  I was also given clonidine and 3 blood pressure medicines.  I ended up in ER twice and my bloodpressure was 210/130 (stroke level) through wd.  I'm not trying to scare you and I'm also alot older than you, but take care of yourself through this.  Also, congratulations on the xanax.  I went through that a year ago and I have to say that was worse than the ultram to come off. But they are both awful to quit.

Congratulations to everyone and thanks again.  You are in my prayers.

Sandstorm

[sandstorm]

Congratulations to you.  I kept up with you from day one and I am so proud of you, I still don't know how you did it cold turkey. Keep up the great work, I'm sure you are an inspiration to everyone here.  Isn't it great to be free of those demons.  I have been free for 4 months from ultram and still going.
Take care, Sandstorm

I am now going to enjoy the day with my family!

[jack daniels]

Well..Thanx for support...I’m have had a bypass about 2 1/2 years ago and have high blood pressure as well, and it went real high during detox...but I was very dumb about it. When I detoxed I did not even care if I died. I was so set on getting off the drugs that was all that mattered..it was ether die or get clean....and was going to detox at ALL costs...I know I was very stupid about it...but what can I say I’m a drug addict....my detox was really VERY NASTY...but it is all behind me now..THANK GOD..All I really know now is that I’m clean am I’m going to stay that way.. No matter what...sorry for rambling...Jack

[sandstorm]

You are not rambling.  Please keep up with your blood pressure because it was like my 2nd and 3rd month that I was having panic attacks because of my bp going so high.  My doctor said my anxiety was aggravating my bp and my bp was aggravating my anxiety so I was in a mess.  Thank God it is back to normal, but I was scared out of my wits.  It has been normal for a month so finally my doctor believes me now.  I told him it was withdrawls, but he could not believe it would last that long, now he does. He said it has really educated him.  I was very blessed to have such a great doctor, he even gave me his cell phone number.  Can you believe that? I am also sorry for rambling but, do have your bp monitored.
Take care, Sandy

It took me 7 months to wean off because I kept slipping.

[Linco]

Sorry to keep "bugging" everyone but does anyone have anything good to say about Duragesic?? Or , in the alternative, does anyone have anything less than terrifying to say about the withdrawals???  Is Bup the only thing left?
Thank you and I really do hope I can find myself in a place sometime where I can be of help to all of you as you have to me.  Many thanks, Linda