Still more buprenorphine confusion

[Bodymechanic]

I doubt there has ever been an opiate drug that was more poorly understood by it's users.  In one of your posts you write that suboxoxone absorbsion is from 50-90%.  Is this from measuring blood levels?  Also, hairysoda writes in a previous post that he changed from 4amps of buprenx to 12 mg of suboxone.  Correct me if I am wrong, but is'nt this an almost 10 fold increase in dosing?  Yet you never mention this in spite of the fact he is asking about getting off the drug totally. What is a high dose? What is a low dose?  Are there any long term side effects with use over many years?  Is buprenorphine addictive and at what dose?  I have been using buprenophine for almost 6 months now and no-one has been able to answer even the most basic of questions.

Any information beyond the usual press releases would be most helpful.

Thanks

Bodymechanic

[ready2help]

That is the million dollar question!

Opinion: it can be a terrific TOOL for certain people. Beyond that, it depends on so many factors - so there is much debate and discussion - I would suggest reading the info here on the Health Pages, plus do lots of reading from other sources. Everyone has an opinion on this. Even the various docs.

I think knowing your objective/goal is significant as well. Your pain issue can complicate things even more - perhaps working with a bonafide pain specialist (better yet, one who is ASAM - asam.org) might get this worked out for you.

Good luck to you.

[Calzy]

You have posted your comment on a old post, started in 2003 and the last post was
Oct. 07.  and people wont see this as much.  Click on the blue "Black to Forum" located at the top or bottom.  Click the green "Post a Question" to start a new post and move your comments, questions there so people can better respond. You question has been the hot subject as of late so you should receive the info your looking for.  

[hollycakes]

I am on my 2nd week of suboxone, and I feel like normal--like before I ever did drugs.  I have a herneated disc in my lower back affecting my sciatic nerve.  That is not why I started taking methadone, though.  I started taking it because I found it amped me up a bit and gave me energy and I could get a lot done in a day.  That was two years ago.  In the end, it didn't do much for me--made me tired.  I suppose if I would have upped he does, could have felt better, but I never took more than 20mg, well maybe a few times.  Anyway, so now I'm not sure if I should get off the suboxone.  Everything I have read is confusing.  My doctor told me it would be not hard to get off of.  Pretty much you just have to cut back on your doses and ween yourself off of it.  But he did say it is a pain reliever and I could stay on it.  Is it bad for you?  I need to know.  

Hollycakes

[TinkersMom]

I just found this forum and feel I must add my story.  I too have been seeing Dr. Jones in Austin, but not for addiction or detox.  I have been seeing him for 3 years for chronic pain management, and yes he has me on buprenex injections.  It works for my pain where nothing else will.  I had no idea it could be addictive in itself as I was told it was not.  I don't seem to be addicted to it.

I am very concerned about addiction because a pain Dr. before Dr, Jones had me on fentenal patches (I know I spelled that wrong) and the withdrawal was horrible.  I thought I would die.  This was before a long fight with our insurance to allow me to see Dr. Jones and take buprenex.  I chose to stop using the patches against my dr's wishes.  He said the patches were enhancing my quality of life!  Somehow, I just couldn't see how being addicted to a narcotic pain med was enhancing my life.  So I finally found a Dr. who would detox me    (after trying it on my own with no meds at all and the thinking I would die part) basically using a combination of pills following  a protocol Dr. Jones had written as an alternative to buprenex.  Our ins. approved of her and the pill protocol so I could afford to do this.  Finally, months later I received my ins. approval for Dr. Jones & buprenex.  

My prescription for Buprenex allows for 8 mls per day in 1 ml shots as needed.  Some days I'll use all 8 somedays maybe 3 and then if my pain settles down I may go for several weeks without taking any shots.  I do not take anyother type of pain meds except over the counter stuff like aleve, etc.

This has worked so well for me, but now the cost of about a 15 min visit with the doctor has gone up to $150.00 and I must see him each month in order to get another month's supply of buprenex.  I simply can't afford this and he does not accept any kind of insurance.

Since I don't use the buprenex on a daily basis I have quite a bit in reserve so you would think I should not have a problem, but I also have military insurance and they get weird if ANYTHING changes, like skipping a month.

Anyway, I'm sure you all don't care about my money problems!  My point is that I have been using Buprenex as described for 3 plus years and have had no issues with addiction or withdrawal.  This seems so different from everyone else's experiences that I don't know what to think.

I'm trying to completely quit using the buprenex because of the cost, but my pain is terrible without it as a backup.  As I said before, I would go for weeks without taking it, but when I had a flare-up I would use the shots and this kept the pain under control.  Now the pain seems to have gotten a strong hold and has taken over my life.  I'm not someone who is very dramatic or whatever but the plain truth is I am barely functioning.  I really need help somehow and don't know where to turn.  I use guided imagery, meditation, etc. but really, that only goes so far.

I'm so sorry to run on.  I was just going to make a short comment... and I seem to have written a book.

[jumathon]

Thanks for your time writing that info. I am suffering from Oxycontin Addiction and I have been told by my doctor to try going on a drug called "NORSPAN" it is a transdermal patch of Buprenorphine that once put on lasts for a week (apparently). I am nervous and scared of taking it because I dont know whether or not it will work, and apparently you cannot start using the patch until the withdrawals are fully underway and then if it doesnt work you cannot take the oxycontins until the buprenorphine patch has been romoved from your body for at least 24-48hrs! I am scared but I thought since you have gone from taking methadone to buprenorphine you might be able to help me a little?
Thanks so much, Kind regards, James.

[caterina&audrey]

am currently on suboxone (buprenorphine), 8mgs, 2mgs, 1 pill daily.  The dose consists of 8mgs of buprenorphine and 2mgs naxolene.  I can probably shed some light on this medication as I have been taking it for 4 months now.  I can also testify to the difference of the maintenance aspect between methadone and suboxone.  I was previously on methadone maintenance for a total of 4+ years for the treatment of addiction to prescription pain medication, opiate based.  I have 2 slipped discs in my lower back, L2 and L4, I believe.  (It has been a long time since my last MRI).  I am a former aerobics teacher, which probably led to my back problems.  (this was way back before non-impact exercise such as pilates became known).  I taught a high impact, feet pounding, (joint wrenching) aerobic class.  I also was married to an abuser who liked to hit me on my back, that was his favorite place to pound on me since the bruises wouldn't show.  So enough about WHY I started taking pain medication, it doesn't matter, as addiction is addiction is addiction....the destruction and the rock bottom are the same, regardless of drug of choice.  I started on methadone maintenance to get off of the pain medication along with the therapeutic results.  Methadone is a synthetic form of opiates.  The benefit of taking methadone as opposed to pills, (oxycontin, percocet, vicodin, etc...) is that it has a double life.  This means only one dose is needed daily, this dose will usually last from 24 to 48 hours depending on your individual metabolism.  It surely beats taking pills every 4 to 6 hours.  With prescription pills, once you miss a dose, withdrawl symptoms and opiod cravings are almost instant when that next dose is due.  This is what causes us to take more pills than prescribed, we want the pain to stop along with any discomfort of withdrawl to go away.  As I said before, methadone works a little differently.  You only have to take 1 dose a day, which should last 24 to 48 hours.  Methadone satisfies any physical cravings along with the therapeutic benefits.   However, getting off methadone can prove to be just as ugly (if not uglier) than getting of pills.  Since methadone has a double life, it may take up to 2 days to start experiencing withdrawls, and if not weened properly, withdrawls symptoms can last from 30 days to 90 days, depending on your metabolism.  Methadone is fat soluable, it stays in your system longer so excretion and withdrawl can be lengthy.  Now, suboxone is a totally different type of drug.  It is an analgesic (pain killer) and most importantly it is an anti-antagonist.  This means "anti-narcotic".  Yes, it is a narcotic, but it works differently in your system.  While taking suboxone, you should not take any other opiate based drugs (oxycontin, percocet, vicodin etc..) as you will become extremely ill.  Also, as some opiod addicts liked to crush their pills and snort it.  If you do this with suboxone, you will only do it once because the naxolene will get you extremely ill.  The only way to take suboxone is as prescribed.  It too has a double life so only 1 dose is needed daily, however if you wish to split your dose in two by taking say, 4mgs in the morning and 4 mgs at night, you can.  The most wonderful thing about suboxone besides the therapeutic benefits for those of us who have valid pain, is that if you stop taking suboxone immediately without weening, the withdrawls are extremely mild compared to that of methadone and pills.  I can personally testify to that fact as I have went 7 days without a suboxone dose and did not feel ANY withdrawls.  I just had to take over the counter tylenol or ibuprophen to ease my back pain until I could get into the doctor to get a prescription.  (my doctor is 90 miles away).  Only doctors with a special license can prescribe suboxone, so you may have to look up chemical dependency specialists to get on a suboxone program.  Suboxone therapy is meant to be short term for the use of opiod dependency.  Usually 2 weeks should be enough to ween you off opiates.  Your doctor may ween you off suboxone also as to not cause you any more un-needed discomfort.  Depending on your situation, your doctor may choose to keep you on a low dose of suboxone for an extended period of time, as one may need to deal with the phsychological withdrawls also.  I do and still experience phsychological withdrawls when I run out of my prescription and cannot make it to the doctor in time, but they are just that,  phsychological, not physical.  I would highly recommend suboxone therapy to any one who is battling with opiod or heroin addiction.  There is no euphoria with suboxone, only the feeling of well being.  This drug has done more for me in 4 months than methadone did in 4 years.  I would not recommend methadone maintenance now that I have tried suboxone.  However, if suboxone were never invented, methadone maintenance would be my choice of medical treatment to treat opiod or heroin addiction.  What methadone maintenance and suboxone therapy do have in common is this....if you take either of these medications AS PRESCRIBED, gone are the days of doctor shopping, wondering how long that pill bottle is going to last and when am I going to start experiencing withdrawls.  Gone are the days of waiting over a weekend for Monday morning for your doctor's office to open so you can get your next prescription to stop the withdrawls.  You wil not be spending time and energy constantly searcing for that next fix, and, you will not be obsessing over that fix either.  You will feel balanced and normal and you will find that you have time to think and spend on more important things.  It is almost like getting your life back and having time to deal with your addiction properly. Like, seeking counseling to identify what your triggers are to use and abuse.  I have experience all I have written here and if I've left anything out, I apologize, please feel free to ask questions, and pardon my grammar and use of the English language...I am just passionate about getting the word out to my fellow addicts who are still suffering.

[pammy0690]

WHen my hubby was on the Bup he and our doc made the desion for him to stay on it a bit longer than recommended due to the length of time 3 years he was abusing oxys at about 120mg a day.  Everyone is different and to just due a three day detox may not be the best bet for everyone.  Best to talk it over with your doctor and come up with a workable treatment plan.  From what I understand Bup works on different receptors therefore the other ones that have taken a beating can heal.  I think this is true but I am not completely sure.  The forum Doc may know more about it.  Pamela

[hairysoda]

im sorry,ithought when you said your last pill was 55 1/2 hours ago that you were drug free and were not on bup yet. you are on the bup now and your are on the taper off program now is that correct? if so let me tell how it works as i did totally wean off bup three years ago after a vicoden addiction of 25 7.5's a day. when i started the bup it was just starting to be introduced in my area which is south florida. i was on 12 amps the 1st day three to begin with  and two every three hours after unti i went to sleep. it worked immediately no withdrawals and it took about three months not three days as your doctor is presribing. i found that when i was seriously of the vics and into the bup the taper was simple. i has no real problem getting down to two amps but then it was a real struggle. i felt tired and weak for ra while and then i was down to less than one amp three times a day befor i knew it. finally i said thats it after i was really injecting only a 1/8 of an amp at a time. after the withdrawals werent that painful like whjen i went cold turkey of perecets no skin crawl or rsl syndrom or anything like that but a weal flu type with drawal that felt like **** for about two weeks with the depression and all but the depression wasnt that bad, i think i was just depressed cause i didnt fell well. the people at the clinic deceived me at the time and told me that there would be absolutley no w/d's. so when i called them durin this time they told me i probably had the flu. but i didnt and then i started to feel normal again and that was great until i started taking vics again after they were offered to me three mounths later. and then i went back to bup and have been on it since. its amazing but i was content for so long  and now i want to be clean again. im on suboxone now so there are no injectons just breaking a 8mg tablet three times a day under my tounge and it works just fine and best of all my insurance pays for it now. The only advice i can give you is to stay the course and do what you doctor says, but if you think when you stop the bup and you dont feel well then maybe you be on the bup for longer and ease off very slow but do get off this stuff or yoyll be like me three years later and get support dont do it yourself GO TO NA-GO TO NA-FO TO NA that will be your savior they will all help you there and mak sure you stay the couse.. im sorry again for making this so long winded but i have so much to share on this topic of the bup and the suboxone that i want to share and it will help me with my addiction problem.. please get back to me

[AKIRA]

i ahve been on bup. for three days now i just am wondering when the hardest time for everyone was. was it while you where on the bup. or the weeks afterwords?

[hippy]

ih lisbet.
na. meetings are a 12 step fellowship.
it has been arounr since 1951. . it started in vannuys cal.
it was started for all the addicts who were not fitting into
aa.
i live in phila pa. and the meeting started here on the east coast  right outside of philly in 1973.
i started going to meetings in 1976 at the age of 16, at the time there were only 7 meetings in the phila area.
so most of us went to aa and na. around 1985 na started to grow up and stand on it own without the  addicts having to go to aa too. in 185 there were 50 mmetings, by 1990 there were 2000
meetings.
and na had its own book, the basic text by 1982, in our like 7 chapters on subjects on living just for today , recovery and
relaps. and a lot of stories of different addicts experence.
most meeting are either 1 hour or an hour and half long.
a person starts the meeting by sharing there story or about a certian principal or step. then the people at the meeting share  about 10 min . each. the meetings have changed in this area
over the years, in the begining years people got up there and told a war story and then the group would dump all there pro blems of thier day and how there day went.
a lot of this style of sharing , the war story from the speaker was from the example of aa, and the dumping from the floor by the rest of the group was directly related to the the new and popular  group therepy that was prevelant tin the 1970's into the early 80's.
things have changed around here .most speakes  share recovery
in thier story and try not to talk to much about all the drugs they did.they focus more how they are getting better, and what is helping them , like belonging to a home group, having a sponser in na who helps them to work the steps.
the meeting are more gear for being positive and attractive to the new person who walks through the door for the 1st time.
and the group trys not to dump all there problems , anymore , but trys to talk about positive things that happening in there
lives, as this is much moe attractive then a bunck  of clean addicts, talking about how  life is so difficult.
the best thing in meetings is the truth, that is what i look for.
and talk about.when ever we focus on any particular drugs we did  it tends to seperate us , and we need to stick together and talk about what we have in comman. unity is a big topic and setting aside our differences, like age, race , religion,
what drugs we did, wether we are rich or poor , educated or
not so educated, seperaton is part of the problem.
na beleives addiction is a disease for lack of a better term.
there are good meeting with mature people getting better and there are metting where people are not as commited and it show sup in the presintation of the groups meetings

[Thomas03]

No need to apologize. In fact, if you would please, point out the posts in this thread that made you feel that way. I would really like to know. We try to provide an hospitable environment for addicts but sometimes we fall short. Your help would be appreciated.

I understand how you feel right now. There is a significant emotional component to Vicodin withdrawal, and it usualy hits about where you are now. I hope you get the bup soon. It will without a doubt help you and quickly, too. Tell me, did your doctor mention Suboxone to you?

Thomas

[AKIRA]

i just tried to write a letter of appology but i earsed by mistake. i want to so i was sorry my emotions right now ar a rollercoaster ride and i am sure you are going threw the same thing. the druge i am detoxing is vicadine i was taking 8-10 of the tens per day. it has been 55 1/2 hours since my last pill and i am starting to freak out a bit. so i appologise.
sorry

[percsnomas]

Hello,

I'm not sure which posts have made you doubt your doctors proposed treatment??? Treatment with Bup for what(how much)?

As far as talking negatively, and making people believe that there is no way out; i have to strongly disagree!!!
There are always "issues", cause lets face it, the emotions are running pretty high here......and a lot at stake; HOWEVER, if you read through most threads, you will find an awful lot of support and hope and optimism.
Most people I've come across here in the last 9 months have been filled with compassion and are incredibly caring, especially for complete strangers.

Please elaborate...

percs(no more)

[AKIRA]

I have been reading everyones comments and honestly you guys are scaring me. i went to see Dr. Jones in austin texas and h eis the only Dr. in my area that deals with addiction thearapy. He put me on bup. and my schedual is 4 injections for 2 days, 3 for 2 days and then 2 for 3 days. I am confident that this will work for me but listing to what you guys are saying, you are making me question my doctors advise. I don't think you guys should be talking soo nagativly to addicts. All you are doing is making us feel like there is no way out.

[lisabet]

Thanks, hippy, for the information.  I know how much interaction on this forum helps me, so I was thinking maybe it would help me to actually be with other addicts, sharing experiences and not feeling so much alone.  It's something I'm thinking about; the problem is going without my family knowing about it.  But if I decide to do it, I'll figure it out, I'm sure...smile.  Have a great day. It's raining and windy here in Southern West Virginia today. Wind's blowing so hard it's rattling the windows. Thanks again.  Love/Peace, Lisabet

[percsnomas]

Hey, Don't apologize......you didn't do anything wrong.

Emotions go wild before, during and after detox!!
I'm just glad you found us, and that you are at 55 hours.  Keep on making it friend!!!

Just take it one minute at a time if you have to.  Write down your feelings, etc.  It might not feel like it, but you are already making progress.  IT WILL GET BETTER, IT WILL GET BETTER(soon)
Did you start the Bup??

Just know, YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!!  We absolutely know what your going through.............and are certainly here for you!!!!!

I detoxed off 20 + percs/day(for several years) last August, so ask me(or anyone) about any of your concerns.

percs

[hippy]

hey suz , sometime we need a brain wash.
i know i need one when i 1st got clean
back in 85. i had to relearn how to think, how to live
amongst a few things that need attention.
i still go to na every week and lone na meetings.
peace!!!!!!!!!hippy
there is nothing like haveing truely heartfull honest conversation.

[Thomas03]

Welcome back, Suzi! So glad to see you here again.

Thomas

[suzneedshelp]

Plz e-mail me and catch up!  I've been in inpt rehab for 4 weeks and it was awesome!  Now i get to continue my recovery and get a new life and learn to live life on its own terms without mind altering chemicals messin with my mind and body and soul!  Do i sound too brainwashed?  WEll i am just willing to learn and stretch beyond my latter years of staydull nasal spray!
Love ya'll!
Suzie
***@****

[lisabet]

Would you care to explain how the NA meetings work?  I've never really been a "joiner" - but I'm beginning to think these meetings may be of some value to me.  You can either answer on the forum or @ ***@****.  Thanks much. Lisabet

[bmac]

You are a mess. Who is this BSills idiot? Have you ever ran across this idiot before. Bunch of one liners and poof,he/she is gone. Sounds alot like our marigroovybutterflygirl doesn't it.
Well come to think of it Mariposa had alot more to say than this message borad troll does. MrM just keep posting through BS's BS.

[Chezz2]

Whats up Bmac,

You back with us or what? Nice to see you posting.
Shoot me an email if you get a chance, it would be nice to catch up.

Chezz

[mrmichael67]

To maintain a person's opioid dependent state for whatever reason is maintenance.....physically dependent state.  I don't think that was an issue, though.  I didn't think maintenance would be an ambiguous topic.  There are issues surrounding it.  There are different reasons for being maintained.  But, what is maintenance?  What is a happy meal?

[mrmichael67]

Why are you against maintenance?  And, what is up with this "I know something that you don't" attitude?  C'mon Beverly, what is the big secret?